That was a good video. His results are completely undeniable. I remember my Dad telling me how a lot of guys in his army company in Vietnam would pick up AK-47's because they were more affective than M-16's in thick jungle. What Iraq Veteran 8888 happened to mention was that high velocity, light weight bullets have a tendency to yaw and tumble through brush. In close quarters thick foliage, a large, slow bullet does in fact have a far better chance of hitting the intended target with sufficient energy to kill than a fast moving Spitzer bullet.
In days gone by, whitetail hunting in the heavily forested states was different than today. There were fewer deer and more underbrush. This put hunters in a dilemma...take a shot on a deer which was partly obscured or pass. A lot of those hunters were purely meat hunters and had to take the shot presented, not as they wished. Bigger and slower calibers were/are better for pushing through and making a clean kill. This is the reason that the .35 Remington and similar cartridges gained such widespread use in the Southeast and Northeastern US.
I remember reading about this subject back in the early 70s. One of the outdoor magazines had a very extensive study that showed that the flight path of any cartridge could be wild and unpredictable after hitting an obstacle no matter the caliber. They used high speed photography (!) to prove it. Their idea of a brush gun was the ease of handling in heavy brush and having a shorter barrel to avoid getting hung up. Caliber was not their main concern.
My understanding is the "brush Busting" concept is about bullet design and not caliber. The validity of the concept comes from the idea that a faster, light weight spitzer style bullet is significantly more prone to deviation than its "old school" heavy flat nose or round nose counterpart. I definitely am not a proponent of shooting through brush but I can think of scenarios where a person might consider taking a shot at an animal where the possibility of shooting through a twig or small branch is evident. This is not to say that a 45-70 or 30-30 will not deviate from its original flight path when it hits a twig but it does claim that a faster spitzer style bullet like a .308win will have exponentially more deviation and instability than your typical "lever gun" cartridge. Ryan was on to something that when you throw more speed at a moving object your reactions tend to be more violent so maybe there's something to the fact that a big heavy bullet can still deliver energy on target without the finicky nature or a being a super fast object in motion. Again not an advocate of "brush guns" and im not a physicist but I do believe that there is some validity to the claim. Iraqverteran8888 did a great video testing the "brush gun" claim that's worth checking out. Great podcast, I always tune in when Ryan is on.
flat nose, non deforming bullets can act as "cookie cutters" and shoot straight through without deviating. a flat nosed, hard cast bullet quite often can bust straight through moderate vegetation without deviating from it's flight path. experiments with dowel rods have been done. of course it helps if the bullet itself hits straight on, as a glancing blow tends to cause the bullet to deviate. but flat-nosed, non-deforming bullets can quite often fly straight through obstacles.
Brush busting never seemed to be openly advocated by anyone on UA-cam as a sound practice. Iraqveteran8888 and luckygunner bothhave done test on this subject and i find it fascinating.
Years ago, I had bought my first ( new to me ) left handed bolt action in 7mm rem mag. Had a real nice buck come into view and closing the distance. He was about 55-60 yard when the 7mm cracked. Thought for sure he was mine. After 30 minutes of frustrating lack of blood sign. Went back to where he pushed into the mud at the shot. Walked my bullets path back to my natural ground blind. And found a pinky finger sized branch a foot in front of my barrel snapped in half. I don't know if a 45-70 or 444 Marlin would have fared any better. I know it didn't do well for accuracy with a 7 mag hahaha
I consider a brush gun to be a rifle that is compact and more easily maneuvered in thick cover. A large bullet may help but all bullet are affected when coming in contact with anything. In a snow storm a bullet can be driven off course by contact with snow flakes.
I know that back in the day, there were tests on ammunition around this issue. I remember a guns and ammo article where they tested bullets shooting through dowels mounted in a board. As I remember, the shorter, fatter, and more spherical a projectile, the more likely it was to remain stable enough to hit a target. A spherical black powder ball would be a good example.
I shot a coyote at 60 yards in thick brush while deer hunting. I hit a 6” diameter cedar tree about 10yds in front of him and it went threw the tree and killed him. Didn’t mean to do it but 430gr 45-70 is hard to redirect. That cedar tree is still splintered where the bullet went through.
The brush gun idea is a perversion of understanding of why you are using the gun in a particular hunting environment. A 30-30 is a light weight, well balanced, and easy to aim rifle that works well on bramble drives. You're top range of shots in this setting is maybe 100 yards but closer to 30 yards and at a running deer so you are levering a bunch of fast semi aimed but mostly instinctual shots with brush between you and the deer. A 270 bolt rifle is impractical in this scenario because you will only get one shot at a deer in the thick brush and that gun is heavier, probably scoped, and just not fun to carry through a swamp drive. The brush gun is a real concept but only because it is a shorter ranged, light weight, well balanced, and allows for fast follow up shots. At 30 yds a 30-30 has the same energy as a 270. At 200 yds a 30-30 is a poor choice compared to a 270 bolt rifle which makes the 270 a great tree stand or valley gun.
Holy crap! I was just thinking about this this morning before this came up! I would argue as mentioned later in the episode, that the “Brush buster” concept has as much, if not more, to do with the firearm than the cartridge. The classic “brush cartridges” are customarily associated with short light rifles that have decent iron sights or are lightly scoped- ideal for sighting in in close confines or maneuvering around or through brush and cover. A heavy flat round that will still hit hard coming in sideways certainly helps, but almost any round fired through brush will suffer some sort of deflection or deformation.
I love how all of a sudden we go from caliber talk to a dendrology class. 😂 Love it guys. I have always heard the 30-30 and 32 Winchester special mostly just lever guns as brush guns here. Some people believe some don't. I missed a whitetail at 10 yards because I hit a branch but it was like 1-1.5" diameter. Never saw it.
Had a lone branch the thickness of a pinky finger 3' in front of my 7 mag cost me a great looking 10 pointer many years ago. And there was no way to see it at the moment hammer drop. Had 60 yards to go to wherever. Now if that twig had been 3 foot in front the deer? We would talking about the nice 10 pointer I got once upon a time heh. I don't know from any experience if my 30-30, 35 Remmy or 444 could have changed the outcome of that situation.
I've witnessed a buck shot through a 3inch sapling tree around 100 yards away with a 45-70. Deer was 3ft behind the tree. Bullet punch a hole through the tree and dropped the buck. A brush gun in my experience is having the ability to shoot a deer through a small briar patch or through small branches on a sapling. But the animal has to be right behind the cover. Ive killed deer with a 30-30 through 2-3ft briar patches/ thickets. Im not saying shoot through pine trees but thin brush that would knock off a fast round grab a brush gun. My 350 legend will hopefully get a chance to sing soon so ill be able to speak for that one.
As someone who hunts heavily wooded areas regularly, and actively participates in deer drives, the distance the intended target is from the potential for deflection is extremely important. If you have a longer, for woods hunting, shot that has potential deflection points anything more than single digit FEET from the intended target, you are playing with fire. I very narrowly managed to vitally my best deer after a deflection a few seasons ago because even though the shot was under 60 yards, there were beech whips between me and the deer that upon scanning afterwards I saw much more 'brush' than I initially noticed. And that was a shot I felt was relatively clear.
Growing up in the NE and mostly hunting in woods with brush we did refer to certain firearms as "brush guns" but not using "brush busting cartridges". Brush guns were not because they would shoot thru brush. They were refereed to as brush guns because they were shorter, lighter, etc.and easier to maneuver in the brush. A classic is the Marlin 336 in 30-30. It was relatively short. It was relatively light. All we needed was a peep sight as most shots were well under 100 yards. And you could take quick follow up shots with the lever action and low recoil. I would agree that any interference in a projectiles path will alter the intended poi at least to a certain degree.
Back in the 70's, 80's and even into the 90's, I would hunt in large groups with a bunch of people we all knew. We would always fill out the legally required "Hunting Roster" and post it where it needed to be. The limit was 25 persons, of which we usually had. The intention was to put on large drives in areas of which most people would not go. We would alternate sitters and drivers, usually with 6 to 8 persons sitting and the remainder doing the driving. Each person would bring 2 rifles with them. One was their normal rifle that they hunted with which was usually scoped (or not) and was also a nice gun. The other was their "Brush Gun". The "Brush Gun" was an old beat up lever or pump action rifle chambered in 30-30, 35 Rem, 45-70 Gov, 30-06 and the like that are chambered in the pump and lever actions. We would use the heaviest bullet loaded for these in as flat or rounded of nose as possible (example 30-06 220 Grain Round-Nose). And, none of these guns had scopes on them. The purpose being that you were going to use your nice rifle when you were a sitter and use the Brush Gun when you were a driver. The reasoning was that you did not care how much you scratched and beat up the Brush Gun (because you were going to go through the thickest areas around that no one usually went through in order to drive the deer hiding in there out to the sitters), with no scope you could obtain your target faster (if you had a shot at it), and the heavier bullets would have more knockdown power at these close ranges due to their weight and flatter nose with faster expansion. Whomever told you that these were intended to shoot through brush better is an idiot that just assumed the such! The "Brush Gun" was simply a beater that you could obtain a quick sight on the deer and a fast action to allow you to get off quick shots. And, no one cared if it was scratched, scraped or cuffed up and there was no scope to knock off sight either. This is the true definition of a "Brush Gun". I hate when people create a definition of something totally by assumption so as to look like they know what they are talking about. In the end, it makes them look like a fool!!!
Brush guns been around for years still busting brush in MO 30/30,45/70,450 marlin,348 just to name a few that come to mind most deer are killed at 50 yards in its thick and hilly no scope open sights
In my region which is usually heavy brush and vegetation, my dad always told me a 30-30 is the best rifle to have. I have successfully shot many deer with a 30-30. Two years ago I was introduced to a 35 Remington. It is impressive! It is shooting about 2,300 fps with a 200 gr bullet. At 100 yds it shot a 1" group. I fell in love with the sexy sounding rifles. My 2 biggest bucks I harvested was with my 270. However, both bucks ran a ways. I had good hits but i kinda felt the bullet was moving to fast at the close range. So, there is really something to be said about these slower, heavier moving bullets. The deer I've taken with my 30-30 have dropped instantly. Just my limited experience. Take what you will.
My "brush gun" is in the form of a 450 bushmaster scout rifle, it's application being for still hunting dense timber in mountainous terrain in Montana for bedded elk, and thick brush of the draws or creek bottoms where bear or moose are often found. At what will almost always be short distances, I'd prefer open sights to any standard type of scope, but in this case have mounted a Vortex "scout" scope to maintain a wide field of vision. When sighting in this rifle, starting at 50 yards with a 250gr FTX bullet, I inadvertently shot more than half the bullet's diameter through my fence, a 1x6 board 15 yards from the muzzle, and still managed to stay within 6 inches of my point of aim. Perhaps I should see if that's a repeatable test, but I'm confident numerous low hanging dense dry twigs in the timber aren't going to foul any hunting shots I take.
I’ve heard of a brush gun, but never a brush buster. The push behind a “brush gun” is a easily handled gun that can be effective in thick woods. Your lever actions (30-30, 45-70, 444, or 35 rem) are easy handling quick shooting guns that have a fast action. Your Remington 760/7600 were considered brush guns because they are easy to handle in a carbine with an 870 feel. most of what’s considered “brush guns” shoot heavy slow bullets, so if a deer is standing in obstructing under brush, you could still punch a heavy bullet through foliage covering the vitals. The intention isn’t to just shoot through brush.
Recalling an old article from the '90's, I don't remember which publication, that put this to a test shooting through dowel rods. The best "brush buster" was a 243 Win, all of the long for caliber, moderate velocity cartridges did "best". Big and slow or any hypervelocity round didn't fare well. Keep in mind that even the "best" rounds were very unpredictable and the practice would be very unethical. If you can't see it clearly, don't shoot.
grew up in north central Wisconsin hunting in the 80's and we use so called brush busters ( 30-30, 32, 12 gauge,16 gauge, 20 gauge slug guns.) on deer drives in thick swamps and thickets. just what the old timers would call them.
In the last 12 months I’ve changed my approach to what I use when I go hunting. I’ve gone from a 308 with a 3x9x40 to a Marlin 444 and a lightly powered scope and the reason behind this is because most of my kills have been well with in 70 meters and mostly witj a lot of brush and woody environment. I laugh when I see someone say “Oh yeah I’ve got a brush gun.., it’s a 45/70 with a 2x10x50 scope” A brush gun can be anything with open sights or very lightly scoped rifle
There was an article about this subject with actual tests, shooting through brush. This article was many years. Ago,maybe the 70s.. the results where , that the longer more stable the bullet the better. The 65 x55 won the competition
If "Red Dawn" were to happen in Wisconsin which gun and load would you wish you had. Has to be a true hunting rifle. No AR's. This would be a great talk on your podcast.
Just a thought, if you shoot a high speed round in water the bullet usually breaks up but a big slow round tends to stay together. Being slower also allows it to "push" through with less deflection than a lighter round moving much faster. But I tend to agree with other commenters that it was more about the gun then the projectile.
The more mass an object has, the more mass it takes to deviate that object from it's flight path. Fatter bullets get more air resistance but this is a gradual slow down. A fatter bullets are usually heavier and it's their weight that pushes them forward. Lighter bullets are deviated much more easily. So yes when shooting in dense woods, take the 45-70 not the 270, so you can make that shot through the thicket if you have to.
I’ve never heard of it as a “Brush Busting Cartridge” but a “Brush Gun”. That’s because it’s typically a carbine style gun in whatever action it was. The lever action is most popular. It is easier to carry a short rifle through that kind of terrain. It wasn’t meant to shoot through the brush. That brings me to a story about my cousin and a big hog. He walked upon a big sow with piglets and the only thing between him that sow was a myrtle bush. He commenced to shooting and pigs ran everywhere. After I got to him we looked for blood and hair and didn’t find anything. We went back to the scene of the crime and looked at the bush he shot through. I think he hit every damn limb in that bush. He never cut a hair on that hog. I couldn’t stop laughing at how all that went down. He was shooting a .243. He couldn’t have been more than 15’ from that hog, probably not that far. So the “Brush Busting Cartridge” in my opinion is a myth. People take it out of context.
to me, brush busting is about getting through the brush the deers standing in/behind. for example, a deer standing right behind a small cedar tree. there's not enough space between the deer and the brush for a 4470 to deflect enough to miss the vitals, and the bullet won't break apart enough to not be a kill shot.
Dominion (later Imperial, and even later CIL) Cartridge Co. produced a potent 215 gr, roundnose loading that had a reputation as a brush busting cartridge with great knockdown power.
Here's my argument. Lever and pump action "brush guns" became so popular as such because they typically hold more rounds that the average shooter can get off faster. That's not to say that big heavy flat nosed bullets aren't marginally better than lighter faster spitzers at resisting deflection, but they're still going to deflect. I would say, that an accurate flat shooting gun with a scope is a better "brush gun" than whatever rock shooting 3 moa lever action you've decided to go with. I can, and have, put bullets through narrow gaps in the brush that I could see only because I had a scope and an accurate, flat shooting rifle. My gun might not be as good at resisting deflection as yours, but then again, it's not something I ever have to worry about.
Hear this term a lot in south east PA. We do lots of pushes because of the thick woods and amount of hills. So this gets thrown around in that scenario quite often
I don't think it's about hitting a target well beyond the brush like you we're discussing at the end for a test set up. But more for when you see a deer at 50 yards and its standing maybe a couple yards inside or just past some brush.
Me and my buddy did a test using broom sage and what we tested is that if you shot throw was more than 10 yards from the target it didn’t matter if it was 223 or 45-70 it wouldn’t hit consistently but the 7mm mag with 140 ttsx actually hit the target most in 10 shots than anything other one we tested but still missed a 14in target 1/2 of the time. but if the target was inside of 5 yards they all hit the target almost every time in our test with broom sage. we tested 223,22-250,243,7mm-08,308,25-06,270, 30-06,7mm mag, 300 mag, 35rem and 45,70. Our bullet choices was limited we found ttsx for most everything but the 223,300mag,35rem and 45-70 and we shot what ever ells we had already for all of them I wish we would have videoed it but we wasn’t even thinking about it at the time
Several decades ago American Rifleman did a test of "brush busters" shooting through a box of hardwood dowels arranged so a bullet would hit at least one. They found significant deflection with all cartridges and said it was not a reasonable concept. Incidentally the least deflection was a 6.5x55 160 grain. They theorized the higher SD and faster rotation kept the bullet more stable.
I shot a buck several years ago with a 3" 450 grain 12 gauge slug from a distance of about 40 yards. Between the muzzle of the shotgun and the deer, it hit a low hanging, almost horizontal vine of some species. This vine was a tough, woody plant and I would guess the diameter was close to three inches. The slug was redirected from the impact with this vine significantly. My aim was just behind the shoulder almost perfectly broadside. The vine was perhaps 30 yards from the muzzle, and the slug travelled ten (ish) yards further to the deer, where it hit a few inches lower and almost a full foot (12 inches) farther back on the animal, resulting a gut shot animal. The deer had enough "gas in the tank" to run almost 1/2 mile before expiring, all the while trailing a sizeable portion of its internal organs along on the ground behind. Tracking was very easy, to say the least. I never noticed the vine before the shot but I pay very close attention to any brush in my line of sight now. If a 450 grain lead slug going around 1200 fps can be deflected a foot or more in the span of 30 feet after contact with a stick or vine, how much more would a smaller faster projectile deflect?
Was this gun rifled? It would make a big difference. However all scenarios will be different. Its more a case of would something else besides a rifled bore make a difference. Nothing works all the time.
I shot a buck at 50-60 yards with a 400 grain sabot goin 1700 fps from my 12 ga. Went right thru a 2” sapling that was several yards before the deer and into the deer where i was aiming, already starting to expand from the tree.Went thru the deer lol deer was dead in 60 yrds. Anything can happen
If you guys are still looking for cartridge/caliber suggestions I would like to hear about the 350 Legend and the 450 Bushmaster, since we’re talking about these types of projectiles.
Brush-busting cartridges are kinda big where I come from. Dogwood/willow sloughs are where the whitetails hang out. If you practice the old "drive-and-post" in swamp country you need a round that won't travel too far if you miss, but will absolutely cut through balm-of-gilead twigs and sh*t that get between you and the (running) deer. It's not a humane or sporting practice, but your 6.5 and 7mm rounds are not popular for this purpose. A 30-30 or even a .44 lever-gun are preferred. Again, NOT recommended. But you're shooting at running targets in heavy cover at short distances (200 yards is a long shot where I come from). Personally, I've never experienced success with this method. Waiting in a stand for the deer to come out into a hay meadow at dawn or dusk is the better strategy. But the neighbors often use ten or twenty people to "drive-and-post" and yes it is dangerous to your hunting partners. A bad, yet often effective, and inhumane way to "harvest" whitetails in heavy cover. No one I knew owned a 45-70, but that would be ideal for this purpose. Shotgun slugs were used very often.
I don't think remember old-timers ever talking about shooting though shrubs. The idea as I was told is a slow moving bullet with a heavy copper jacket is much more resistant to impacting tall grass and light brush such vines just before impact. Deer often bed down in similar cover with only the head visible. Before modern optics and ammo punching though a bit of light cover was and probably still is a more reliable option than a headshot or a shot at a fleeing deer. Punching a clean hole verses deflecting in multiple layers of leaves would be a better test than shooting a shrub for accuracy.
Going up we hunted whitetail using dogs. Deer on the rum is usually how they were harvested. It was a different time. And a lifestyle not a sport. We didn't call it brushbusters lol but the phrase brush gun was used. Had more to do with the length of the gun and how it handled. Auto's, lever guns, pump ceneterfire ... short and fast were more important than caliber.
Here in Pennsylvania, a Brush Gun is considered a gun that is short, quick handling gun that you can shoot quickly at short range in thick cover. Not shoot thru the brush itself.
You guys are great. Thoroughly enjoy this channel. Y’all are on my level of nerdship. I say that with respect. So here comes the medicine after the sugar. A spitzer type projectile will deflect more than a flatter faced projectile when encountering a twig, branch, or the combination of the two, brush. Iraq Veteran 8888 did an ad hoc experiment on this topic which supported my empirical findings of spitzer vs “flying ash tray” type bullets through brush. Living in IL we are limited to muzzleloader and shotgun firearms for deer hunting. (No straight walled carbines allowed yet) I’ve shot an untold number of deer through brush that was 10-20yds in front of the deer while taking 75-100yd shots with shotgun riffled slugs and muzzleloader rounds. A 300-440gr flatter nosed projectile like a 300gr .430 Hornady XTP or a 1oz Remington Slugger will plow through brush with surprising accuracy more so than a tipped spitzer type projectile like a Barnes 290gr TE-Z Spitfire. It’s all about the shape of the bullet. Nuggets of knowledge gleaned from behind the trigger! 😎
p=mv. Momentum is equal to mass times velocity. In the world of bullets this tends to favor the heavier bullets more than the high velocity ones. IMO if you are hunting the thick stuff, a brush gun is good in case you accidentally hit a twig you didn't see. It will give you a better chance of a good hit.
Grew up in RSA Hunting. Havent heard many old timers talking about "Brush Guns". I dont have one, However my 375Ruger doesnt play games when going through bush to fetch meat on the other side.
Many years ago I had a video (VHS) where somebody tested this. They did it by building "screens" of twigs of differing thicknesses (and even thstch grass) with a whole bunch of different calibers and bullet types. Everything from .22LR to .50BMG. Nothing eent straight after hitting brush, and there was actually very little difference in the amount of deflection.
I would argue that the wind could play a role into the reason why someone would want a bullet that can withstand a small obatacle such as a twig, better than another bullet. I.e its breezy and youre aming through some brush, but try as you might the branches might move as you pull the trigger. That being said, i also believe that heavier bullet might deflect less over a reasonable distance (1-75 yards) especially having a flatter bullet nose profile such as round nose, hollow point or especially hard cast semi wadcutters. Its more of a hole punch than an uncentered spearing.
You guys should do the shrub test like you did 6.5 vs .308. Also, deflection on impact is linearly related to momentum which is m*v. Let’s look at the 45-70 Hornady 325 fr FTX at 2050fps for a value of 666k. Vs the .243 Win Hornady Interlock 100gr at 2960 fps for a value of 296k. The 45-70 deflects less than half the heavy for caliber .243 at a screaming velocity. Impact Physics is all about momentum… and that’s not a layman saying. Look in your physics textbook! Good podcast. :)
Imagine yourselves in a tree-stand in a mountainous area. Sixty-five yards and downhill stands a whitetail directly behind a laurel bush. Using a .25-06, your bullet would still be cooking at roughly 2,900 FPS upon arrival. A .45-70 might roughly have a speed of 1,400 FPS. We may conclude that any .25-06 cup-and-core bullet would probably disintegrate upon impacting the laurel. The slower moving projectile may have a chance of getting to the deer. With one you probably have no chance of success; and with the other some chance. I’d opt for some chance.
I saw a video where a guy shot at a target at 50yds through light brush with various calibers and the so called brush busting calibers performed very well I didn't believe in brush busters until i saw this video
At least where I live in Alaska, when referring to brush buster it is a discussion about walking through the nasty brush and a big animal is now right on you. What big note will kill it as soon as possible before it kills you.
You could place some type of hoop in front of the brush maybe a hoop the size of a small bucket and fire all your different rounds through that hoop then you roughly have the same entry point through the brush, you could align that hoop up with the post that Mark was talking about on the target.
The thinking that I've heard with brush buster cartridges is the bullet shape more than anything. Especially since the 30-30 and 45-70 were considered fast when they were originally created, so they weren't developed for this thought of busting brush. But a flatter front surface with minimal ogive in theory deflects less than something found in more modern bullet design such as the 6.5mm 143gr eld. Think throwing a football at shallow angle against a window. Football is going to deflect. Do the same with a brick and the window is going to break and the brick will likely end up inside.
My personal experience has shown me that lighter bullet weight is much more likely to tumble than heavier bullets. But it still matters to pick the best shot you can get
444 Marlin with a Beartooth bullets 335gr gas check monster at over 2000 fps. Is much less affected by minute twigs and random other forest bits that may not be readily visible through the scope. Now blindly trying to blow through heavy brush is just asking for bad results.
All depends on the type of brush you’re shooting through. Would never shoot through and sticks and twigs but here in Florida Palmetto leaves and high grasses my 35 Remington in a 336 Marlin would surprise these guys
I think the light .22 bullets pushes by the 220swift and 22-250rem, are the reason this “Brush Busting” idea exists. Those early (1960-1980) cup and core .22’s would blow up on a wet soy bean leaf! So that created the myth of the opposite being true. A slow .45 can penetrate bushes!
I've always heard it called brush gun. But they're talking about specifi type of foliage but always used the term as a short barrel fast action you would use with open sights while on a deer drive or just a walk thru the woods where you're view isn't real good.
There is no way to test this, but I am a believer. Would you rather have a slow heavy bullet or a high velocity pointed bullet when hunting a 3 year old clear cut? Even in heavy laurel you can see the whole deer, but you may still hit a twig. How many guys have found wood IN the deer when using a shotgun and slugs? Is it an absolute? No, but it may help that one time. Gelatin means nothing. I used to test fire my re-barrels on a bench into tied news papers or pine blocks about 4 feet away. Soft point spire bullets would go in 8-10 inches and barely blunt the point. I know what you mean with "Redbrush". I have seen it chest high but do not know what it is. It sure ain't dogwood.
People always compare 250 grain 450 Bushmaster to the 300 or 350 grain in 458 socom. Compare apples to apples. 250 grain in each they are very similar but the 450 uses 45 cap bullets and the 458 uses rifle bullets. Big difference in terminal performance. Also in a single shot or bolt action the 458 socom will surpass 45-70.
Please do this. Take my .375H&H and place a few two by fours in about five yards in front of the target. Then shoot intentionally through the boards and when it absolutely destroys the boards AND pushes on through the target you’ll understand what a “brush buster” really means. Use a nice 350 grain Woodleigh in my .375H&H so that the example you see will be plainly evident. Then you’ll agree completely on what can bust through small trees to get your intended game animal.
12 gauge slug at 12 1300 fps works best I've found for thick brush, hits close to aim every shot. It does matter the heft of bullet . Light fast isn't good in thick
I shot a quartered away deer years ago at about 125 yards, hit a twig, hit the back leg, had the bullet cut her belly open and kill her. The gut pile was 10 yards from where she fell, completely intact. Don't try to shoot through trees... and no, I didn't realize there was the twig there or else I wouldn't have taken the shot
I would like to see your video on this. Now since we have moved to the controversial. Just how is it the .450 Bushmaster is headspaced? Isn't it ironic how a cartridge designed for the AR is becoming so incredibly popular in a single shot. Man I what to hear you guys on this one.
So I beloved what makes deflection more or less it kenetic energy V momentum, bullets with high kenetic energy seem to be disrupted easier, this may be because energy can be transformed, (you can even see some high velocity bullets get destabilized just by coming too close to an object) and with more available energy more can be transformed, momentum on the other hand = m×a, must be conserved, the more momentum something has, the more opposite momentum is needed to change the direction of that momentum, if weight is the same, the only thing that can effect the bullets momentum is opposite velocity on impact, which a slower bullet has less of.
If you are in some light brush and you shoot at a deer with a 45-70 through a bit of foliage, you're still quite likely to hit the deer. That's why you use a 405 grain bullet instead of a 55 grainer.
"Bullets don't behave well when they hit things" Yeah, spitzer rounds don't. You mentioned heavy and slow but forgot twist. Brush guns ARE real. The faster the twister the farther the drift after twig impact. Sounds like none of these men have hunted in the dense Appalachian. Where most shots are under 100 yards and almost always through brush. Not discrediting the gentlemen. I love their show and they're obviously intelligent. They just got this one wrong.
the misunderstanding has always been "brush gun" ... shoots thru brush. that has always been false. the correct understanding is "brush gun" ... compact, enough power for game animals, ideal to carry in brushy (tight / close quarter) environments.
I realize this is an older vid but here's my 2 cents. You seem to have the notion that a hunter specifically go into the heaviest brush he can find just to see if he can kill something he is not quite sure what it is. Wrong. If you hunt in areas that are generally have heavier vegetation like the north east and south east fast small diameter bullets just veer to much. When you see a deer walking thru the woods and you say yep that will do you do not look to see where every tree, branch and bush is located. Infact you probably don't even see anything except that deer. You take your aim what for him to come out from behind that 3 ft across oak tree and pull the trigger. On your way over to start to clean him you then notice all the brush that bullet just went thru. This happens time after time in these regions. Growing up the two best brush guns were the .35 Remington and the .30-30. Round bullet slow moving. Yes they do make a difference.
iraqvetren888 did the testing on this all ready
Not very scientific testing but I agree there is some validity on both sides. It’s just best to have a clean shot tbh though.
Yeah can't glean much info off of that discussion.
He’s to difficult for me to watch personally
That was a good video. His results are completely undeniable. I remember my Dad telling me how a lot of guys in his army company in Vietnam would pick up AK-47's because they were more affective than M-16's in thick jungle. What Iraq Veteran 8888 happened to mention was that high velocity, light weight bullets have a tendency to yaw and tumble through brush. In close quarters thick foliage, a large, slow bullet does in fact have a far better chance of hitting the intended target with sufficient energy to kill than a fast moving Spitzer bullet.
He also said that .30-30 was on the same level as 7.62x39 even though it smashed through privet
In days gone by, whitetail hunting in the heavily forested states was different than today. There were fewer deer and more underbrush. This put hunters in a dilemma...take a shot on a deer which was partly obscured or pass. A lot of those hunters were purely meat hunters and had to take the shot presented, not as they wished. Bigger and slower calibers were/are better for pushing through and making a clean kill. This is the reason that the .35 Remington and similar cartridges gained such widespread use in the Southeast and Northeastern US.
A lot of "brush busting" in the past was unintentional since most folks had open sights (ie. they couldn't see the brush)
A lot of "brush busting" in the past was unintentional since most folks had open sights (ie. they couldn't see the brush)
Exactly, it was about hunting to eat. U didn't have the luxury of passing on a shot when u got one or u might starve
I remember reading about this subject back in the early 70s. One of the outdoor magazines had a very extensive study that showed that the flight path of any cartridge could be wild and unpredictable after hitting an obstacle no matter the caliber. They used high speed photography (!) to prove it. Their idea of a brush gun was the ease of handling in heavy brush and having a shorter barrel to avoid getting hung up. Caliber was not their main concern.
Do you remember which magazine it was? I would love to give it a read and look at the findings, I'm a big fan of retro 70s gun stuff
@@henrynorth6558 It was Outdoor Life or Field and Stream I think.
My understanding is the "brush Busting" concept is about bullet design and not caliber. The validity of the concept comes from the idea that a faster, light weight spitzer style bullet is significantly more prone to deviation than its "old school" heavy flat nose or round nose counterpart. I definitely am not a proponent of shooting through brush but I can think of scenarios where a person might consider taking a shot at an animal where the possibility of shooting through a twig or small branch is evident. This is not to say that a 45-70 or 30-30 will not deviate from its original flight path when it hits a twig but it does claim that a faster spitzer style bullet like a .308win will have exponentially more deviation and instability than your typical "lever gun" cartridge. Ryan was on to something that when you throw more speed at a moving object your reactions tend to be more violent so maybe there's something to the fact that a big heavy bullet can still deliver energy on target without the finicky nature or a being a super fast object in motion. Again not an advocate of "brush guns" and im not a physicist but I do believe that there is some validity to the claim. Iraqverteran8888 did a great video testing the "brush gun" claim that's worth checking out. Great podcast, I always tune in when Ryan is on.
flat nose, non deforming bullets can act as "cookie cutters" and shoot straight through without deviating.
a flat nosed, hard cast bullet quite often can bust straight through moderate vegetation without deviating from it's flight path.
experiments with dowel rods have been done.
of course it helps if the bullet itself hits straight on, as a glancing blow tends to cause the bullet to deviate.
but flat-nosed, non-deforming bullets can quite often fly straight through obstacles.
Brush busting never seemed to be openly advocated by anyone on UA-cam as a sound practice. Iraqveteran8888 and luckygunner bothhave done test on this subject and i find it fascinating.
Years ago, I had bought my first ( new to me ) left handed bolt action in 7mm rem mag.
Had a real nice buck come into view and closing the distance. He was about 55-60 yard when the 7mm cracked. Thought for sure he was mine. After 30 minutes of frustrating lack of blood sign. Went back to where he pushed into the mud at the shot. Walked my bullets path back to my natural ground blind. And found a pinky finger sized branch a foot in front of my barrel snapped in half.
I don't know if a 45-70 or 444 Marlin would have fared any better. I know it didn't do well for accuracy with a 7 mag hahaha
I consider a brush gun to be a rifle that is compact and more easily maneuvered in thick cover. A large bullet may help but all bullet are affected when coming in contact with anything. In a snow storm a bullet can be driven off course by contact with snow flakes.
I know that back in the day, there were tests on ammunition around this issue. I remember a guns and ammo article where they tested bullets shooting through dowels mounted in a board. As I remember, the shorter, fatter, and more spherical a projectile, the more likely it was to remain stable enough to hit a target. A spherical black powder ball would be a good example.
I shot a coyote at 60 yards in thick brush while deer hunting. I hit a 6” diameter cedar tree about 10yds in front of him and it went threw the tree and killed him. Didn’t mean to do it but 430gr 45-70 is hard to redirect. That cedar tree is still splintered where the bullet went through.
i prefer a tactical nuke. nothing will get in the way then.
The brush gun idea is a perversion of understanding of why you are using the gun in a particular hunting environment. A 30-30 is a light weight, well balanced, and easy to aim rifle that works well on bramble drives. You're top range of shots in this setting is maybe 100 yards but closer to 30 yards and at a running deer so you are levering a bunch of fast semi aimed but mostly instinctual shots with brush between you and the deer. A 270 bolt rifle is impractical in this scenario because you will only get one shot at a deer in the thick brush and that gun is heavier, probably scoped, and just not fun to carry through a swamp drive. The brush gun is a real concept but only because it is a shorter ranged, light weight, well balanced, and allows for fast follow up shots. At 30 yds a 30-30 has the same energy as a 270. At 200 yds a 30-30 is a poor choice compared to a 270 bolt rifle which makes the 270 a great tree stand or valley gun.
Seems like a simple case of Newton's 1st Law. More mass would be less affected by external forces.
Ya could have been a 10 second talk this episode
Holy crap! I was just thinking about this this morning before this came up! I would argue as mentioned later in the episode, that the “Brush buster” concept has as much, if not more, to do with the firearm than the cartridge. The classic “brush cartridges” are customarily associated with short light rifles that have decent iron sights or are lightly scoped- ideal for sighting in in close confines or maneuvering around or through brush and cover. A heavy flat round that will still hit hard coming in sideways certainly helps, but almost any round fired through brush will suffer some sort of deflection or deformation.
What a coincidence! Good thoughts for sure.
Check out the videos done by Iraqvetern8888!
They actually put this to the test with various calibers
I love how all of a sudden we go from caliber talk to a dendrology class. 😂 Love it guys. I have always heard the 30-30 and 32 Winchester special mostly just lever guns as brush guns here. Some people believe some don't. I missed a whitetail at 10 yards because I hit a branch but it was like 1-1.5" diameter. Never saw it.
Had a lone branch the thickness of a pinky finger 3' in front of my 7 mag cost me a great looking 10 pointer many years ago. And there was no way to see it at the moment hammer drop. Had 60 yards to go to wherever. Now if that twig had been 3 foot in front the deer? We would talking about the nice 10 pointer I got once upon a time heh. I don't know from any experience if my 30-30, 35 Remmy or 444 could have changed the outcome of that situation.
I've witnessed a buck shot through a 3inch sapling tree around 100 yards away with a 45-70. Deer was 3ft behind the tree. Bullet punch a hole through the tree and dropped the buck.
A brush gun in my experience is having the ability to shoot a deer through a small briar patch or through small branches on a sapling. But the animal has to be right behind the cover. Ive killed deer with a 30-30 through 2-3ft briar patches/ thickets. Im not saying shoot through pine trees but thin brush that would knock off a fast round grab a brush gun. My 350 legend will hopefully get a chance to sing soon so ill be able to speak for that one.
As someone who hunts heavily wooded areas regularly, and actively participates in deer drives, the distance the intended target is from the potential for deflection is extremely important.
If you have a longer, for woods hunting, shot that has potential deflection points anything more than single digit FEET from the intended target, you are playing with fire. I very narrowly managed to vitally my best deer after a deflection a few seasons ago because even though the shot was under 60 yards, there were beech whips between me and the deer that upon scanning afterwards I saw much more 'brush' than I initially noticed. And that was a shot I felt was relatively clear.
Growing up in the NE and mostly hunting in woods with brush we did refer to certain firearms as "brush guns" but not using "brush busting cartridges". Brush guns were not because they would shoot thru brush. They were refereed to as brush guns because they were shorter, lighter, etc.and easier to maneuver in the brush. A classic is the Marlin 336 in 30-30.
It was relatively short. It was relatively light. All we needed was a peep sight as most shots were well under 100 yards. And you could take quick follow up shots with the lever action and low recoil.
I would agree that any interference in a projectiles path will alter the intended poi at least to a certain degree.
Paul Harrell did a video recently on this very topic.
I have a 444 marlin. I think 4570 or 444 with hornady leverevolution is a must for the gun cabinet.
Love the 444! 45-70 is awesome too
@@JepsOutdoorAdventures it's a must lever gun
Back in the 70's, 80's and even into the 90's, I would hunt in large groups with a bunch of people we all knew. We would always fill out the legally required "Hunting Roster" and post it where it needed to be. The limit was 25 persons, of which we usually had. The intention was to put on large drives in areas of which most people would not go. We would alternate sitters and drivers, usually with 6 to 8 persons sitting and the remainder doing the driving. Each person would bring 2 rifles with them. One was their normal rifle that they hunted with which was usually scoped (or not) and was also a nice gun. The other was their "Brush Gun". The "Brush Gun" was an old beat up lever or pump action rifle chambered in 30-30, 35 Rem, 45-70 Gov, 30-06 and the like that are chambered in the pump and lever actions. We would use the heaviest bullet loaded for these in as flat or rounded of nose as possible (example 30-06 220 Grain Round-Nose). And, none of these guns had scopes on them. The purpose being that you were going to use your nice rifle when you were a sitter and use the Brush Gun when you were a driver. The reasoning was that you did not care how much you scratched and beat up the Brush Gun (because you were going to go through the thickest areas around that no one usually went through in order to drive the deer hiding in there out to the sitters), with no scope you could obtain your target faster (if you had a shot at it), and the heavier bullets would have more knockdown power at these close ranges due to their weight and flatter nose with faster expansion. Whomever told you that these were intended to shoot through brush better is an idiot that just assumed the such! The "Brush Gun" was simply a beater that you could obtain a quick sight on the deer and a fast action to allow you to get off quick shots. And, no one cared if it was scratched, scraped or cuffed up and there was no scope to knock off sight either. This is the true definition of a "Brush Gun". I hate when people create a definition of something totally by assumption so as to look like they know what they are talking about. In the end, it makes them look like a fool!!!
Less deflection than a 5.56 in the jungles of Nam. I think this is where the standard that brush busters are compared to.
Brush guns been around for years still busting brush in MO 30/30,45/70,450 marlin,348 just to name a few that come to mind most deer are killed at 50 yards in its thick and hilly no scope open sights
In my region which is usually heavy brush and vegetation, my dad always told me a 30-30 is the best rifle to have. I have successfully shot many deer with a 30-30. Two years ago I was introduced to a 35 Remington. It is impressive! It is shooting about 2,300 fps with a 200 gr bullet. At 100 yds it shot a 1" group. I fell in love with the sexy sounding rifles. My 2 biggest bucks I harvested was with my 270. However, both bucks ran a ways. I had good hits but i kinda felt the bullet was moving to fast at the close range. So, there is really something to be said about these slower, heavier moving bullets. The deer I've taken with my 30-30 have dropped instantly. Just my limited experience. Take what you will.
It isn't the size of the bullet, but the bullet placement
My "brush gun" is in the form of a 450 bushmaster scout rifle, it's application being for still hunting dense timber in mountainous terrain in Montana for bedded elk, and thick brush of the draws or creek bottoms where bear or moose are often found. At what will almost always be short distances, I'd prefer open sights to any standard type of scope, but in this case have mounted a Vortex "scout" scope to maintain a wide field of vision.
When sighting in this rifle, starting at 50 yards with a 250gr FTX bullet, I inadvertently shot more than half the bullet's diameter through my fence, a 1x6 board 15 yards from the muzzle, and still managed to stay within 6 inches of my point of aim. Perhaps I should see if that's a repeatable test, but I'm confident numerous low hanging dense dry twigs in the timber aren't going to foul any hunting shots I take.
I would have to agree with you on that statement
I’ve heard of a brush gun, but never a brush buster. The push behind a “brush gun” is a easily handled gun that can be effective in thick woods. Your lever actions (30-30, 45-70, 444, or 35 rem) are easy handling quick shooting guns that have a fast action. Your Remington 760/7600 were considered brush guns because they are easy to handle in a carbine with an 870 feel. most of what’s considered “brush guns” shoot heavy slow bullets, so if a deer is standing in obstructing under brush, you could still punch a heavy bullet through foliage covering the vitals. The intention isn’t to just shoot through brush.
Recalling an old article from the '90's, I don't remember which publication, that put this to a test shooting through dowel rods. The best "brush buster" was a 243 Win, all of the long for caliber, moderate velocity cartridges did "best". Big and slow or any hypervelocity round didn't fare well. Keep in mind that even the "best" rounds were very unpredictable and the practice would be very unethical. If you can't see it clearly, don't shoot.
grew up in north central Wisconsin hunting in the 80's and we use so called brush busters ( 30-30, 32, 12 gauge,16 gauge, 20 gauge slug guns.) on deer drives in thick swamps and thickets. just what the old timers would call them.
In the last 12 months I’ve changed my approach to what I use when I go hunting.
I’ve gone from a 308 with a 3x9x40 to a Marlin 444 and a lightly powered scope and the reason behind this is because most of my kills have been well with in 70 meters and mostly witj a lot of brush and woody environment.
I laugh when I see someone say
“Oh yeah I’ve got a brush gun.., it’s a 45/70 with a 2x10x50 scope”
A brush gun can be anything with open sights or very lightly scoped rifle
I agree. I would even go as far to add, lever gun, pump, auto etc... preferably not a bolt action.
Mark- "You look like you could pitch."
Always pictured Him as more of a catcher. Hahahaha
There was an article about this subject with actual tests, shooting through brush.
This article was many years. Ago,maybe the 70s.. the results where , that the longer more stable the bullet the better. The 65 x55 won the competition
If "Red Dawn" were to happen in Wisconsin which gun and load would you wish you had. Has to be a true hunting rifle. No AR's. This would be a great talk on your podcast.
Just a thought, if you shoot a high speed round in water the bullet usually breaks up but a big slow round tends to stay together. Being slower also allows it to "push" through with less deflection than a lighter round moving much faster. But I tend to agree with other commenters that it was more about the gun then the projectile.
The more mass an object has, the more mass it takes to deviate that object from it's flight path. Fatter bullets get more air resistance but this is a gradual slow down. A fatter bullets are usually heavier and it's their weight that pushes them forward. Lighter bullets are deviated much more easily. So yes when shooting in dense woods, take the 45-70 not the 270, so you can make that shot through the thicket if you have to.
I’ve never heard of it as a “Brush Busting Cartridge” but a “Brush Gun”. That’s because it’s typically a carbine style gun in whatever action it was. The lever action is most popular. It is easier to carry a short rifle through that kind of terrain. It wasn’t meant to shoot through the brush. That brings me to a story about my cousin and a big hog. He walked upon a big sow with piglets and the only thing between him that sow was a myrtle bush. He commenced to shooting and pigs ran everywhere. After I got to him we looked for blood and hair and didn’t find anything. We went back to the scene of the crime and looked at the bush he shot through. I think he hit every damn limb in that bush. He never cut a hair on that hog. I couldn’t stop laughing at how all that went down. He was shooting a .243. He couldn’t have been more than 15’ from that hog, probably not that far. So the “Brush Busting Cartridge” in my opinion is a myth. People take it out of context.
to me, brush busting is about getting through the brush the deers standing in/behind. for example, a deer standing right behind a small cedar tree. there's not enough space between the deer and the brush for a 4470 to deflect enough to miss the vitals, and the bullet won't break apart enough to not be a kill shot.
Dominion (later Imperial, and even later CIL) Cartridge Co. produced a potent 215 gr, roundnose loading that had a reputation as a brush busting cartridge with great knockdown power.
Here's my argument. Lever and pump action "brush guns" became so popular as such because they typically hold more rounds that the average shooter can get off faster. That's not to say that big heavy flat nosed bullets aren't marginally better than lighter faster spitzers at resisting deflection, but they're still going to deflect. I would say, that an accurate flat shooting gun with a scope is a better "brush gun" than whatever rock shooting 3 moa lever action you've decided to go with. I can, and have, put bullets through narrow gaps in the brush that I could see only because I had a scope and an accurate, flat shooting rifle. My gun might not be as good at resisting deflection as yours, but then again, it's not something I ever have to worry about.
Hear this term a lot in south east PA. We do lots of pushes because of the thick woods and amount of hills. So this gets thrown around in that scenario quite often
I don't think it's about hitting a target well beyond the brush like you we're discussing at the end for a test set up. But more for when you see a deer at 50 yards and its standing maybe a couple yards inside or just past some brush.
Me and my buddy did a test using broom sage and what we tested is that if you shot throw was more than 10 yards from the target it didn’t matter if it was 223 or 45-70 it wouldn’t hit consistently but the 7mm mag with 140 ttsx actually hit the target most in 10 shots than anything other one we tested but still missed a 14in target 1/2 of the time. but if the target was inside of 5 yards they all hit the target almost every time in our test with broom sage. we tested 223,22-250,243,7mm-08,308,25-06,270,
30-06,7mm mag, 300 mag, 35rem and 45,70. Our bullet choices was limited we found ttsx for most everything but the 223,300mag,35rem and 45-70 and we shot what ever ells we had already for all of them I wish we would have videoed it but we wasn’t even thinking about it at the time
Several decades ago American Rifleman did a test of "brush busters" shooting through a box of hardwood dowels arranged so a bullet would hit at least one. They found significant deflection with all cartridges and said it was not a reasonable concept. Incidentally the least deflection was a 6.5x55 160 grain. They theorized the higher SD and faster rotation kept the bullet more stable.
This is a term definitely used here in Arkansas and out deer camps all down the delta from northern Louisiana to Mississippi
🤜🤛
I shot a buck several years ago with a 3" 450 grain 12 gauge slug from a distance of about 40 yards. Between the muzzle of the shotgun and the deer, it hit a low hanging, almost horizontal vine of some species. This vine was a tough, woody plant and I would guess the diameter was close to three inches.
The slug was redirected from the impact with this vine significantly. My aim was just behind the shoulder almost perfectly broadside. The vine was perhaps 30 yards from the muzzle, and the slug travelled ten (ish) yards further to the deer, where it hit a few inches lower and almost a full foot (12 inches) farther back on the animal, resulting a gut shot animal.
The deer had enough "gas in the tank" to run almost 1/2 mile before expiring, all the while trailing a sizeable portion of its internal organs along on the ground behind. Tracking was very easy, to say the least.
I never noticed the vine before the shot but I pay very close attention to any brush in my line of sight now. If a 450 grain lead slug going around 1200 fps can be deflected a foot or more in the span of 30 feet after contact with a stick or vine, how much more would a smaller faster projectile deflect?
Was this gun rifled? It would make a big difference.
However all scenarios will be different. Its more a case of would something else besides a rifled bore make a difference.
Nothing works all the time.
@@JJ-qy8xu It was a rifled slug barrel.
I shot a buck at 50-60 yards with a 400 grain sabot goin 1700 fps from my 12 ga. Went right thru a 2” sapling that was several yards before the deer and into the deer where i was aiming, already starting to expand from the tree.Went thru the deer lol deer was dead in 60 yrds. Anything can happen
If you guys are still looking for cartridge/caliber suggestions I would like to hear about the 350 Legend and the 450 Bushmaster, since we’re talking about these types of projectiles.
That would be pretty cool - we'll add it to the list. Thanks, Scott.👊
Brush-busting cartridges are kinda big where I come from. Dogwood/willow sloughs are where the whitetails hang out. If you practice the old "drive-and-post" in swamp country you need a round that won't travel too far if you miss, but will absolutely cut through balm-of-gilead twigs and sh*t that get between you and the (running) deer. It's not a humane or sporting practice, but your 6.5 and 7mm rounds are not popular for this purpose. A 30-30 or even a .44 lever-gun are preferred. Again, NOT recommended. But you're shooting at running targets in heavy cover at short distances (200 yards is a long shot where I come from). Personally, I've never experienced success with this method. Waiting in a stand for the deer to come out into a hay meadow at dawn or dusk is the better strategy. But the neighbors often use ten or twenty people to "drive-and-post" and yes it is dangerous to your hunting partners. A bad, yet often effective, and inhumane way to "harvest" whitetails in heavy cover. No one I knew owned a 45-70, but that would be ideal for this purpose. Shotgun slugs were used very often.
Eric from iraqveteren8888 did a good video on “brush guns.” Some of the calibers actually did quite a good job.
I don't think remember old-timers ever talking about shooting though shrubs. The idea as I was told is a slow moving bullet with a heavy copper jacket is much more resistant to impacting tall grass and light brush such vines just before impact. Deer often bed down in similar cover with only the head visible. Before modern optics and ammo punching though a bit of light cover was and probably still is a more reliable option than a headshot or a shot at a fleeing deer. Punching a clean hole verses deflecting in multiple layers of leaves would be a better test than shooting a shrub for accuracy.
Going up we hunted whitetail using dogs. Deer on the rum is usually how they were harvested. It was a different time. And a lifestyle not a sport.
We didn't call it brushbusters lol but the phrase brush gun was used. Had more to do with the length of the gun and how it handled. Auto's, lever guns, pump ceneterfire ... short and fast were more important than caliber.
Here in Pennsylvania, a Brush Gun is considered a gun that is short, quick handling gun that you can shoot quickly at short range in thick cover. Not shoot thru the brush itself.
Very popular in the southeast and in thicker areas/bottomlands.
You guys are great. Thoroughly enjoy this channel. Y’all are on my level of nerdship. I say that with respect. So here comes the medicine after the sugar. A spitzer type projectile will deflect more than a flatter faced projectile when encountering a twig, branch, or the combination of the two, brush. Iraq Veteran 8888 did an ad hoc experiment on this topic which supported my empirical findings of spitzer vs “flying ash tray” type bullets through brush. Living in IL we are limited to muzzleloader and shotgun firearms for deer hunting. (No straight walled carbines allowed yet)
I’ve shot an untold number of deer through brush that was 10-20yds in front of the deer while taking 75-100yd shots with shotgun riffled slugs and muzzleloader rounds.
A 300-440gr flatter nosed projectile like a 300gr .430 Hornady XTP or a 1oz Remington Slugger will plow through brush with surprising accuracy more so than a tipped spitzer type projectile like a Barnes 290gr TE-Z Spitfire.
It’s all about the shape of the bullet. Nuggets of knowledge gleaned from behind the trigger! 😎
p=mv. Momentum is equal to mass times velocity. In the world of bullets this tends to favor the heavier bullets more than the high velocity ones. IMO if you are hunting the thick stuff, a brush gun is good in case you accidentally hit a twig you didn't see. It will give you a better chance of a good hit.
Grew up in RSA Hunting. Havent heard many old timers talking about "Brush Guns". I dont have one, However my 375Ruger doesnt play games when going through bush to fetch meat on the other side.
Many years ago I had a video (VHS) where somebody tested this. They did it by building "screens" of twigs of differing thicknesses (and even thstch grass) with a whole bunch of different calibers and bullet types. Everything from .22LR to .50BMG. Nothing eent straight after hitting brush, and there was actually very little difference in the amount of deflection.
I've done the testing and yes there is a difference.
Yup and various videos online proving brush guns are affective
I would argue that the wind could play a role into the reason why someone would want a bullet that can withstand a small obatacle such as a twig, better than another bullet. I.e its breezy and youre aming through some brush, but try as you might the branches might move as you pull the trigger. That being said, i also believe that heavier bullet might deflect less over a reasonable distance (1-75 yards) especially having a flatter bullet nose profile such as round nose, hollow point or especially hard cast semi wadcutters. Its more of a hole punch than an uncentered spearing.
You guys should do the shrub test like you did 6.5 vs .308.
Also, deflection on impact is linearly related to momentum which is m*v.
Let’s look at the 45-70 Hornady 325 fr FTX at 2050fps for a value of 666k.
Vs the .243 Win Hornady Interlock 100gr at 2960 fps for a value of 296k.
The 45-70 deflects less than half the heavy for caliber .243 at a screaming velocity.
Impact Physics is all about momentum… and that’s not a layman saying. Look in your physics textbook!
Good podcast. :)
Imagine yourselves in a tree-stand in a mountainous area. Sixty-five yards and downhill stands a whitetail directly behind a laurel bush. Using a .25-06, your bullet would still be cooking at roughly 2,900 FPS upon arrival. A .45-70 might roughly have a speed of 1,400 FPS. We may conclude that any .25-06 cup-and-core bullet would probably disintegrate upon impacting the laurel. The slower moving projectile may have a chance of getting to the deer. With one you probably have no chance of success; and with the other some chance. I’d opt for some chance.
I saw a video where a guy shot at a target at 50yds through light brush with various calibers and the so called brush busting calibers performed very well I didn't believe in brush busters until i saw this video
At least where I live in Alaska, when referring to brush buster it is a discussion about walking through the nasty brush and a big animal is now right on you. What big note will kill it as soon as possible before it kills you.
You could place some type of hoop in front of the brush maybe a hoop the size of a small bucket and fire all your different rounds through that hoop then you roughly have the same entry point through the brush, you could align that hoop up with the post that Mark was talking about on the target.
The thinking that I've heard with brush buster cartridges is the bullet shape more than anything. Especially since the 30-30 and 45-70 were considered fast when they were originally created, so they weren't developed for this thought of busting brush. But a flatter front surface with minimal ogive in theory deflects less than something found in more modern bullet design such as the 6.5mm 143gr eld. Think throwing a football at shallow angle against a window. Football is going to deflect. Do the same with a brick and the window is going to break and the brick will likely end up inside.
My personal experience has shown me that lighter bullet weight is much more likely to tumble than heavier bullets. But it still matters to pick the best shot you can get
444 Marlin with a Beartooth bullets 335gr gas check monster at over 2000 fps. Is much less affected by minute twigs and random other forest bits that may not be readily visible through the scope.
Now blindly trying to blow through heavy brush is just asking for bad results.
Flat point, not round nose, is generally considered what brush gun bullet should be.
All depends on the type of brush you’re shooting through. Would never shoot through and sticks and twigs but here in Florida Palmetto leaves and high grasses my 35 Remington in a 336 Marlin would surprise these guys
I think the light .22 bullets pushes by the 220swift and 22-250rem, are the reason this “Brush Busting” idea exists.
Those early (1960-1980) cup and core .22’s would blow up on a wet soy bean leaf! So that created the myth of the opposite being true. A slow .45 can penetrate bushes!
To many videos out there demonstrating the validity of "brush guns cartridges" for these guys to be having this theoretical conversation.
How come you didn’t show the 45-70 in that brush buster round case you have
I've always heard it called brush gun. But they're talking about specifi type of foliage but always used the term as a short barrel fast action you would use with open sights while on a deer drive or just a walk thru the woods where you're view isn't real good.
There is no way to test this, but I am a believer. Would you rather have a slow heavy bullet or a high velocity pointed bullet when hunting a 3 year old clear cut? Even in heavy laurel you can see the whole deer, but you may still hit a twig. How many guys have found wood IN the deer when using a shotgun and slugs? Is it an absolute? No, but it may help that one time. Gelatin means nothing. I used to test fire my re-barrels on a bench into tied news papers or pine blocks about 4 feet away. Soft point spire bullets would go in 8-10 inches and barely blunt the point. I know what you mean with "Redbrush". I have seen it chest high but do not know what it is. It sure ain't dogwood.
People always compare 250 grain 450 Bushmaster to the 300 or 350 grain in 458 socom. Compare apples to apples. 250 grain in each they are very similar but the 450 uses 45 cap bullets and the 458 uses rifle bullets. Big difference in terminal performance. Also in a single shot or bolt action the 458 socom will surpass 45-70.
Please do this. Take my .375H&H and place a few two by fours in about five yards in front of the target. Then shoot intentionally through the boards and when it absolutely destroys the boards AND pushes on through the target you’ll understand what a “brush buster” really means. Use a nice 350 grain Woodleigh in my .375H&H so that the example you see will be plainly evident. Then you’ll agree completely on what can bust through small trees to get your intended game animal.
My thoughts is most brush guns are in fast action repeating rifles. So fast follow up shots
I know a guy that shot a deer through a wooden fence. Ran a few yards and fell. Was with a 338wm
12 gauge slug at 12 1300 fps works best I've found for thick brush, hits close to aim every shot. It does matter the heft of bullet . Light fast isn't good in thick
Yes! Do it 6.5 vs 45-70 with the bush 🥦 in front.
“I require a shuddery”...
Are we going Monty Python here?
#MontyPythonBalistics
#HowNotToBeSeen
NE!!
I shot a quartered away deer years ago at about 125 yards, hit a twig, hit the back leg, had the bullet cut her belly open and kill her. The gut pile was 10 yards from where she fell, completely intact. Don't try to shoot through trees... and no, I didn't realize there was the twig there or else I wouldn't have taken the shot
Could y’all do a video on the 30-06 and the 243 wssm
“Brush gun”. Is a term used in PA all the time. Really common to hear guys talk about a brush gun.
I would like to see your video on this.
Now since we have moved to the controversial. Just how is it the .450 Bushmaster is headspaced? Isn't it ironic how a cartridge designed for the AR is becoming so incredibly popular in a single shot.
Man I what to hear you guys on this one.
So I beloved what makes deflection more or less it kenetic energy V momentum, bullets with high kenetic energy seem to be disrupted easier, this may be because energy can be transformed, (you can even see some high velocity bullets get destabilized just by coming too close to an object) and with more available energy more can be transformed, momentum on the other hand = m×a, must be conserved, the more momentum something has, the more opposite momentum is needed to change the direction of that momentum, if weight is the same, the only thing that can effect the bullets momentum is opposite velocity on impact, which a slower bullet has less of.
Did y'all ever do that brush test? I'm interested in this project!
375 and the 416 ruger are definitely brush busters. Lols.
If you are in some light brush and you shoot at a deer with a 45-70 through a bit of foliage, you're still quite likely to hit the deer. That's why you use a 405 grain bullet instead of a 55 grainer.
Did the brush busting 45-70 vs 6.5 Creedmoor video ever get made?
"Bullets don't behave well when they hit things" Yeah, spitzer rounds don't. You mentioned heavy and slow but forgot twist. Brush guns ARE real. The faster the twister the farther the drift after twig impact. Sounds like none of these men have hunted in the dense Appalachian. Where most shots are under 100 yards and almost always through brush. Not discrediting the gentlemen. I love their show and they're obviously intelligent. They just got this one wrong.
We always called your "brush busters" brush guns, i.e. you don't need a scope because your shot will be under 100 yards
10 minute talk: longer than 10 minutes
Me: I'm not even mad
Come up to Maine !!! Show ya some brush
Easternshore of Maryland is a bushy area. And is a great area for a bush gun. These kids are having issues with issue.
the misunderstanding has always been "brush gun" ... shoots thru brush.
that has always been false.
the correct understanding is "brush gun" ... compact, enough power for game animals, ideal to carry in brushy (tight / close quarter) environments.
I realize this is an older vid but here's my 2 cents. You seem to have the notion that a hunter specifically go into the heaviest brush he can find just to see if he can kill something he is not quite sure what it is. Wrong. If you hunt in areas that are generally have heavier vegetation like the north east and south east fast small diameter bullets just veer to much. When you see a deer walking thru the woods and you say yep that will do you do not look to see where every tree, branch and bush is located. Infact you probably don't even see anything except that deer. You take your aim what for him to come out from behind that 3 ft across oak tree and pull the trigger. On your way over to start to clean him you then notice all the brush that bullet just went thru. This happens time after time in these regions. Growing up the two best brush guns were the .35 Remington and the .30-30. Round bullet slow moving. Yes they do make a difference.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE WHATEVER YOU DO GET THE BUSH FROM CRAIGS MOM SO YOU CAN CALL IT CRAIGS MOMS BUSH😂😂😂😂
No ..its shooting a deer in thicc ass forest and its usually a shooter 32 or 30-30 ..maybe 44 carbines are popular in Maine in my area
What kind d of regions you ask?? Welcome to Maine!!
Noted! :)
And the swamps in Wisconsin!
Nothing like a 450 or 358 win in the "brush"
Guys put a target in the brush and shoot anything you want at it, you will find all bullets deflect on the smallest twig period
I think the point is a object in motion stays in motion = a heavier bullet is less likely to move than a smaller bullet
We want ..a shrubbery!
Slow and heave just doesn't deflect like fast and light. I got my 35 rem to hunt hogs in the manzanita.