The Most Famous Gospel Not In The Bible - What Is The Gospel of Thomas?
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- Опубліковано 11 чер 2024
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- VIDEO NOTES
Andrew Mark Henry is a scholar of religious studies. His research focus is early Christianity and late Roman religion. He earned his PhD at Boston University.
His UA-cam channel is "Religion for Breakfast", find it here: @ReligionForBreakfast
- LINKS
Read the Gospel of Thomas: lifeintegrity.com/Gospel-of-T...
- TIMESTAMPS
00:00 What is the Gospel of Thomas?
02:21 Is This a Gnostic Gospel?
07:07 Dating the Gospel
09:39 Is Thomas Jesus' Twin Brother?
21:22 Doubting Thomas
28:16 Does Thomas Contradict the Canonical Gospels?
37:02 Condemnation of the Material World
47:25 Jesus’s Secret Message to Thomas
55:46 Contradicting the Old Testament?
57:57 Jesus Warning Against Fasting & Alms
1:00:31 Some of Thomas' Weirdest Sayings
1:14:04 Thomas’ Confusing Final Saying - Turning Women Into Men
1:18:39 Why the Gospel of Thomas Isn’t In The New Testament
1:22:30 Where to Find Andrew
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Pleased this post!
Thanks so much for the invite! Loved the conversation.
I was already subbed to this guy; can confirm: Is an EXCELLENT Channel.
What's the ankh about? It's a symbol of a dead God
@@nathanbell6962god's don't die! ...
@@nathanbell6962 Dead you say!?! And here I thought it was the key to life...
I religiously watched his channel at 14 year old. Learned almost everything I know about gnostic gospel thanks to him. Great to see him getting some nice attention.
Frankly, I don't understand why you don't invite Jesus to your podcast; it would settle all these questions once and for all.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
If only...it would settle a lot of things
Unfortunately Jesus killed himself a few months ago, so we won't be hearing much from him, the news report is at video id T_G4mnFeh5s
RIP Jesus.
Jesus would most probably be cool about it, he was a person who is open to discussion
How I wish
Jesus having a twin would make it ridiculously easy for them to fake the resurrection. That's the first place my mind went, rather than the virgin birth.
Not really they'd still have a body to deal with
Your right ! One step ahead of me!😊
pretty easy in 33 ce to get rid of the evidence I reckon
They didn't even need to fake anything. Just wait 30+ years and write a story
@@Iamtidal every one of jesus' apostles went to horrific deaths proclaiming they witnessed the resurrection
I've watched this video, your video with Elaine Pagels and with Dr. Justin Sledge from Esoterica all back to back and they've all been really, really great stuff! I'm super interested in looking at religion and in particular Christianity from a scholarly historical perspective, but a lot of the content that offers that can be quite dense and difficult to watch and follow. For example, while I love Esoterica, sometimes the content can be a bit difficult to watch if it's on a topic I'm not already intimately familiar with, but your video with Dr. Sledge did a great job of sort of weaving his knowledge into a narrative that's more digestible and informative from someone without that scholarly background. I felt the same for this video and your video with Elaine Pagels.
I've been aware of your channel for quite some time and have always watched your videos here and there, but this recent content featuring experts in the field has been an absolute delight to listen to and it really feels to me like you've found a niche here that no one else on youtube is doing, so I hope you continue down this path. Please keep up the fantastic work, and I'll be here to eagerly consume the fruits of your labors!
Two of my fav religion youtubers! This will be a fantastic watch
yo didnt think to see you here
@@MichaelRafonehe definitely doesn’t attack anyone’s faith, but religious people do like resorting to that complaint when they can’t explain their irrational beliefs and become frustrated
@@MichaelRafoneAlex o Connor isn’t cringe so he doesn’t “attack” people like r/atheism
@@MichaelRafone I prefer learning about religion from non-religious scholars. For instance who would you rather listen to when learning about Islam? Some Muslim scholar who's gonna preach Islam to you or some non-religious scholar such as Joshua Little? I apply the same standard to Christianity.
@@MichaelRafone While I think he *is* ultimately an atheist youtuber, Alex O'Connor's style is much more understanding, exploratory, and academic than many other atheist youtubers. He studied theology in order to really understand Christian philosophy, and in many podcasts he argues against atheist ethics and epistimology from a Christian perspective. This channel is certainly one of the most MATURE atheist channels out there, alongside Genetically Modified Skeptic and Bart Ehrman's podcast.
He is saying….We are all one! God lives in us all.
I’m so sorry but, Jesus not not live inside all of us. Only those who believe!
@@user-mt6dw7vu4q lol.
@@user-mt6dw7vu4q if there is a God, who created us, then we are indeed all one, and God lives in all of us, since we are all part of its creation, all is connected, as lots of the mystics in various religions and books wrote. If this is true, then it shouldnt matter whether one believes it or not, it just is. Wouldnt you say so.
No, God cannot live in an unrepentant sinner. We need cleaning up from the blood of Jesus. To claim that we need to first be believers. You can tell when the Holy Spirit Of God comes to live in you. You are never alone, your burden of sin is lifted and you are not afraid to die.
@@DustandfuzzGod is not like the unrepenting sinner. He is like a good father or mother, who keeps forgiving and loving their imperfect child no matter what.
This is Thomas. I cry reading the words of my brother. The meaning is so clear yet biblical scholars fail to understand. If you understand you hold the light, if not you are in the dark. The worst part is I have to love both of you. ❤
The word of whom?
This was such an interesting discussion! I look forward to more discussions like this
Thanks for banging out so much amazing content Alex
Thank you for insightfully engaging with the material
We believe that St. Thomas came to Kerala, India in AD 52.
uploaded in perfect time--thanks Alex!
1:09:05 lol! "I'm no divider." Jesus is doing the "get a load of this guy" move
Rly enjoying this series, keep it up Alex.
thank you Alex, please continue these great podcasts!!!!
Keep these coming Alex. I would dearly love one how much the gospels are affected by Paul. I've got some partial answers but can't seem to find a lengthy answer.
The depth if your combined insights and speculation is most satisfying and impressive and I thank you both
for this discussion.
I'm currently living close to St. Thomas Mount (a.k.a Parangimalai) where St. Thomas allegedly got killed (I can see the mountain from my house rooftop). Its fascinating as a local how this event happening thousands of miles across being crucial to Christian cannon..
There are some reports on how his death might have caused but here locally, the story is that he was killed by a bunch of bandits uphill for his belonging.. People in the west say he got decapitated (Syrian tradition because he brought bunch of Syrian Christians to South India) or stoned both of which are not possible because stoning someone to death is not a common practice here and there is no alleged action by St. Thomas which would result in his decapitation and there is no evidence for proper trial that happened on him either. One other story which I recently heard is that he got impaled by spears and the spear tips are preserved, which I never heard it till now so its worth noting as well. You can sill find his remains in a tomb in a church called "San Thome" which is relatively close.
Just to add some info for the audience..
Edit: Added the spear line
Thank you for this note
Can i suggest that this Gospel of Thomas is easier to understand as a Zen text. Many of the struggles you are having are released if, for example, you switch 'kingdom of heaven' for 'nirvana'.
I'm not necessarily saying it is a product of Buddhism (though there was already cross-fertilisation between Greeks and Buddhists before Jesus), but that they are both drawn from the same pursuit.
There is only one 'reality' out there and, if mystics grapple with it, you would expect many of them to arrive a similar positions.
The Chinese seem to be more along this road, seeing Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism as three branches of the same tree.
Yeah, this makes much more sense! However, I would differ regarding confucianism though. Daoism emerged almost as a rebellious response to it. Buddhist ideas were later integrated into both, bringing them closer together (what differs mostly are the methods to achieve such enlightenment), but initially, in essence, people like Zhuang Zi said the opposite of what Kong Fu Zi said regarding hierarchies and rituals. It's sad that religious daoism drifted so far away from its origins, I guess just like orthodox christianity embodies the opposite of proto-christian mysticism.
Yes! Exactly!
This was such a great watch!!
00:48
I appreciate the edit to ~pan out to both of you, to show Alex's absolutely massive grin at the notion of what he's about to hear.
Really enjoyed this dialogue. It was great!
Alex I have to tell you that I really appreciate your work here!!! It was a great experience all the way through. And I must say that you were on point, it was a delight to watch. Thanks again man.
Big brother really helping little bro get thru this text. Nice job!
Super excited for this new series!
Alex, great conversation! Great guest. 👍🏿💙💙💙🥰✌🏻
Loved this talk! Any chance we'll see NT Wright sometime soon?
What a great team up! Thank you guys!
Great stuff. Really dig these type of conversations. The book of Thomas is probably my favorite of all the writings. Short and sweet but so much in it to unpack.
PS Still wish those dresser drawers were in the background.
Great discussion guys
Always a great time when religion for breakfast is on
Breakfast 2 breakfast 4 2
I've been waiting for this kind of material for quite some time
You could just research it instead of waiting
Ok smartass @@OTPpride
@@OTPpride Consider practicing active kindness, if you are a seeker, or not, I think it can help.
This whole series is amazing❤
Great episode!
I've seen Barth Erhman say that Thomas seems to have been considered Jesus' twin in a non-literal sense, and later sources indicate that some early christians saw thomas as an exemplar of following jesus' example, and so he became twinned to Jesus
I think this is the more apt explanation. Thomas is a very esoteric text. This fits with Vedanta which says you and the Guru are one.
Exemplar? Is this the same "Doubting Thomas"?
@@TheDynamicJAB Yes. The Thomas communities claimed superior secret knowledge. The Johannine community was adamant they held the truth. One way to disparage and deride the Thomas view is to create him as the lout, the one who doesn't get it, the last to understand but only because of material proof. John does this a lot to others as well.
The Thomas view (among others) was rejected as Christianity slowly built Jesus into a Hellenistic God, codified at Nicaea in 323 when the Trinitarians won the day. John became the big winner and Johannine theology rules Christian thinking and doctrine.
It is easier for the masses to understand the crude portrayal and beliefs of orthodoxy (he died for our sins, he is the unique son of God, etc) than the more nuanced and complex theology of the Gospel of Thomas. Now we are mature enough to grasp it.
A friend of mine said he read the book 'the hidden secrets of the Bible' and now understood its hidden meaning. Funnily enough he had t actually worked out what the Bible teaches directly. Much most of you guys. What a joke of intellectual bs
@@bcatcoolbetter than the contradictory, nonsensical, perverse joke that the orthodox faith is
I've not come across a host on youtube as knowledgeable as Alex. He can ask such well informed questions. It's pretty astounding.
Great guest, by the way. Fascinating stuff.
You should follow him on religion for breakfast. It's this kind of topic all the time
Love your work Alex, thank you for your work
I really enjoyed that episode. Can't wait to watch all the series on those gospels.
The material world isn’t condemned, but the egoistic attachment to it is objectively acknowledged
It seems like the materialist worldview forces people to see everything as a binary and then easily misinterpret these passages
This is common to nearly all religions, especially in the East.
@@kenkaplan3654 the religion of *atheism often overlooks this ego to Self dichotomy, this is why these two use the word “condemn” or “disparage” here, in their forgivable misunderstanding of the text
@@jacksonelmore6227 I agree. Neither of them are mystics (well Alex isn't) but the passages they cite eassily could be the bassis for Buddhism, Vedanta or any form of mysticism. All posit we have an "essential nature" that is beyond the ego-psyche-physical.
@@jacksonelmore6227look up what words mean before using them.
Hearing these kinds of vague and seemingly contradictory sayings makes much more sense to me when contemplating them from/through an advaita vedanta perspective. Especially after watching many lectures by Swami Sarvapriyananda, it makes me feel like these apparent contradictions may be able to be brought into conformity if we understand them in a “levels of understanding/knowing/reality” framework, such as proposed by Neoplatonism (which I know from John Vervaeke’s work, which also helps me a lot in grappling with these weird and abstract wordplays).
I’d love it if Alex would dive a little into more eastern philosophy and make some content on it. At least to me, having done so has given me a very different perspective from which to understand Abrahamic religions, and I feel like it’s a deeper one at that too. I still remain agnostic, but getting into contact with these arguably more “profound” aspects of religion, in a more participatory and open-minded manner, made me feel like I started to understand myself and the world a little better, even if I don’t necessarily believe the propositional content of their proposed metaphysics. It’d be amazing to hear what Alex would make of all this, especially on Vedanta, Neoplatonism and Vervaeke’s work.
Yeah, listening to this i keep being reminded of yoga basically, and various Hindu or Advaita Vedanta verses by various sages and saints, like one from Adi Shankara "The world is illusion, Brahamn alone is real. Brahman is the world". Or Ramana Maharishi talking about how the self is realised upon the dissolution of the ego when it is seen to be unreal. There is alot in common with Hindu mysticism with Thomas.
I love this talk!! Thank you both
Wonderful exploration! Thank you!!
Always thinking of this quote from Lost when Thomas is brought up.
"
Ben Linus: Thomas the Apostle. When Jesus wanted to return to Judea, knowing that he would probably be murdered there, Thomas said to the others, "Let us also go there and we might die with him." But Thomas was not remembered for this bravery. His claim to fame came later when he refuses to acknowledge the resurrection. He just couldn't wrap his mind around it. The story goes that he needed to touch Jesus wounds to be convinced.
Jack Shephard: So was he?
Ben Linus: Of course he was. We are all convinced sooner or later, Jack.
"
Great interview. Could you please also do an episode on the Gospel of Epididymus?
Best comment on this type of content.
The one written by a couple of hangers on
Great conversation on thomas. More gnostic books, please, as they are all new to me. Enjoyed Andrew's insight.
Listening to this on my ride into town 😊
Like Jesus riding into town. Riding an ass. Jesus was unmarried and hung out with a dozen single dudes. He wasn't the only one of that group into riding ass.
1:12:56 i heard recently, and this fits even better with Platos idea of the original androgyne being having been bifurcated. and that's that the text does not in fact say that Eve was formed from Adam's rib, but from his side. that is to say, the original primordial androgynous being was bifurcated to form the two. which i think makes a whole lot more sense.
you know, we tend to scoff at the Adam & Eve story. "how could a woman be formed from a mans rib? preposterous!" and there's this Christian cope "well no! you can actually feel it. your left ribcage has 1 less rib than your right." when in fact it does. but this whole back & forth stems from a mistranslation!! it's just like how the commandment isn't "Thou shalt not kill". again, it's another mistranslation. no it's "Thou shalt not murder."
1:18:45 again, i don't know. i think with all the... what did Andrew call it? "Twintheology"? i think the quote is addressed specifically to Simon Peter's inquiry about Mary. but if he were to ask the same thing about a different person, a male person; he would say the vice versa equivalent. the female is "incomplete" without the male, but so too is the male "incomplete" without the female. or the feminine without the masculine, and the masculine without the feminine.
1:24:07 great show, loved the in depth discussion. and i'm excited to see more like this!!
one final thought. i don't think this book was determined non-canonical because of the reasons laid out by Andrew. i think it's because of it's heretically equal treatment of the sexes. y' know, outside of that last saying, and even within it under a more charitable interpretation, it's pretty equal. again, because of that Platonic idea of the original primordial androgyne. Andrew mentioned the Gospel of Thecla, also a gospel which equalizes women to some degree. the Gospels were not canonized by God, i remind everyone. they were canonized by men. human, male, men. is it really any wonder that the canonical gospels uphold the patriarchy? (sorry if that was a bit too feministy, but i think it's true!)
Male men? That's the worst kind! 😯
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This is what Ana Graciela Blackwelder does, she has changed my life.
After raising up to 60k trading with her, I bought a new house and car here in the US and also paid for my son’s (Oscar) surgery. Glory to God.shalom.
@@OliviaMarieSmith-ei8hyWow, that’s inspiring. How can I contact Ana Graciela Blackwelder?
I will leave your information below this comment.
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This was really awesome
Love it, look forward to more episodes.
Please get Bernardo Kastrup on the show Alex! 🙏🥺
Indeed! The first rigorous and somewhat convincing metaphysical idealist I have listened to.
Agreed
@@GingerDrums lol.
Yes. I'll listen to this one
@@HarryNicNicholas unfortunately I'm not even joking 😃
Alex's logo reminds me of the Dairy Queen logo
Great Conversation!! I’ve long been fascinated by New Testament Apocrypha!!!
Very interesting video. I’ve watched a few of the hosts interviews and I find it infuriating that he rarely acknowledges or responds to the guests answers. He simply says “mmmm” then makes another statement, using his guests as two dimensional sounding boards.
Thank you🙌✨
Please do one of these on the gospel of judas next! The vision of christian spiritual truth in that text reads as so much more intellectually sound and appealing than the current accepted orthodoxy.
"intellectually appealing".......
is that the point? if you dont believe, if you dont even believe in god, why are you guys trying to understand it?
@@xMXWLx I have to believe in something to find it interesting and worthy of further investigation/thought?
@@xMXWLx thee same reason people are interested in any other mythology
@xMXWLx the same reason people sre interested in greek mythology. Understanding cults in history is entertaining for some. Its not that deep
It’s a false gospel
If Jesus had a twin, did he prestige the resurrection?
Would explain A LOT lol
To me “Be passers by…” simply means, witness the world but do not become attached to it. It makes sense when you contrast it to the parable of the merchants. It’s very clear.
Great conversation as usual. I'd love to see you dialogue with either Jimmy Akin or Trent Horn in the future of its possible!
Fascinating discussion (as usual)! My knowledge of Buddhism is rather limited, but there does seem to be at least a few parallels in Thomas to important concepts from Buddhism. In particular, the irrelevance of the "material world" and the quest for salvation through Nirvana. Does anyone else get those vibes?
I once saw someone speculating that Jesus was just trying to teach Buddhism, perhaps even as a missionary from Central Asia, but was misunderstood, and his message/ life story was changed after his death, and by the time the gospels were written down, he was unrecognizable. Seems extremely far fetched, but one could imagine he may have been influenced by those ideas which were brought to the near East from India and Central Asia around when he lived.
@@oliverlineberger6692 Maybe not so far fetched? They also mentioned in the video something about Thomas taking a trip to India. And who knows where Jesus was hanging out before he suddenly reappeared in Nazareth late in his life...
@@oliverlineberger6692 Jesus could not have been a Buddhist. Jesus was an uber Theist. Buddhism says there is no central organizing principle, However there is commonality in mystic traditions.
The obsession with these books is truly amazing instead of reading the canon, we want to look into such books. Apostle Paul was right about the condition of humanity in the last days.
“For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
2 Tim 4: 3-4
It's pretty clear to me that all major religions are talking about the same underlying phenomena. Emptiness in Buddhism is the Kingdom of God in Christianity. This place can be accessed through prayer or meditation. People are still becoming enlightened today.
Preyz Gord for ths presentation
High preyz brotherunclejesus
I accept your preyz
@@Natchjohn800 🌠👋😎
I've enjoyed your channel for a long time, but now I can honestly say you have been putting out more interesting content *for Christians* than any Christian podcaster I know. Keep 'em coming!
The thing I find most fascinating is that I can relate to so much of the Gospel of Thomas in the way that I've gained understandings very much like what the gospel says without ever having read the gospel or hearing about it before now.I feel like many of the sayings in the gospel could have been written by myself as I have written very similar things in my own journal and there is such striking similarity that it is both strange and comforting. I am not saying that I am divinely inspired, but much of what I have come to understand about things I feel comes from my true self which has a direct connection to the Source of all there is.
I have seen what is beyond this physical existence and I have known my true self all my life. I can see and feel connections to everything and everyone and I understand more about the Universe than I am able to articulate in a way that others would believe me or understand the way that I do. Thank you for sharing this video and the content to help others understand things that I have gained understanding of. Alex, I hope some day to be able to meet you and have a discussion with you about this and other topics of interest, but at least I am able to watch your videos and I hope you will continue to enrich the lives of your viewers for years to come.
Yeah, i think for instance Andrew was giving a little too much credence to Plato as being the origin of some of these ideas whereas i know that people are quite cabable of coming up with such understanding on their own.
@@hardywatkins7737 I agree. I am someone who has always been at ease with allowing my mind to flow freely and exploring realizations about different things and finding fascination with even the most mundane things. I have always been at peace with my mind and comforted by what it shows me. I have asked my mind for understanding and it has granted me clarity about so many things and I have in my own way come to the ultimate realization of the meaning of life and how all of us truly matter in this world. I believe that we all have the ability to gain understanding if we allow ourselves to accept our minds as being there to guide us in ways that we may not even realize. With acceptance we are able to see connections and gain understanding that we are all capable of finding that understanding. I hope that makes sense.
Thanks for all your excellent work Mr O Connor, I am a simple layman without any higher education but still really enjoy what you do .
Alex, with due respect is a layman to biblical scholarly matters. He is learned of course but no more than you, professionally speaking. Keep leaking and come to your conclusions
@@user-dy3fn1eo5s With respect friend he is more learned than myself who through whatever circumstances did not finish high school. For me he is a very good starting place but I do take your point there are those wiho are more specialized.
@@martynspooner5822 You can be very intelligent without an enormus intellect. To have intellect is perhaps a stand in the way to understand these teksts.
@@janb8314 Yes I hear you what I meant was I left school very early which wasn't that unusual in my generation but in hindsight it would have been great to have received a little more education but now it is at our fingertips.
Luke 25:1
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
Cheeky 😊
Revelation 22:18-19:
I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
◇
I hate you somuch😂😂 i really tried looking this in the bible. this is a saying by buddha 😂😅
Not sure about the direction from a commercial standpoint, but it definitely works for me!
I have heard the sayings of Thomas compared to Haiku the Japanese short poems. They are for meditation and revelatio rather than explanation. I found that helpful!
What's this? A crossover episode?
Hi. Thanks for this, fascinating.
Seen from a Daoist-inspired perspective.
Gospel of Thomas " If your leaders tell you, etc ".
By designating heaven as " after ", " post " or beyond life, the left hemisphere or the grasping egoic part of the mind gives itself reign over the present.
37:00 The context of " corpse ", is the egoic grasping chattering monkey mind, when asked to show this identity it is seen as an inner creation ( ghost ) that circles around itself.
The context of " poverty ", this again is the poorly aware and self-clinging ego part of our nature that avoids and ignores self-reflective " spiritual " wisdom.
The context of " You became drunk from the bubbling spring which I have dug ", points to the claim of acting as if in compelled servitude ( worshipping the signpost and not what it points to ).
.
The one who reads this with criticism, and judgment and wishes to obfuscate by comparison, is the same one that is being pointed to as the dead weight when transformation of aware presence ( separation and reintergration ) is practised.
At 30:00 you cite a section which says that the 'kingdom' is within, not an afterlife.
This is near-identical to the Buddhist 'nirvana', which is not a state which can only happen well into the future, but is available right now.
It seems to me that the great teachings, including the tao, are saying roughly the same thing.
Could you explore this?
I 'stumbled' across this - so refreshing & enjoyable to hear both narrations which were generally at home in me. Have now subscribed for future episodes. Thank you very much. Didnt hear comments on 'if God created male & female after 'his' own image' would not the Creator be both male & female (Alpha & Omega)? - this would justify the goal of soul integration with God/Christ further perhaps.
When I was in college in 2011, I met a guy who was a little older student, like me, and he approached me and started hanging around me until we became friends. I went to his apartment and we had some drinks one night before heading downtown to the local club/bar scene. I noticed the bible on his bookshelf and he got excited and asked If I was a Christian. I told him I was and we went back and forth sharing some stories and then went out for the night. Months later, My opinion on this person has changed slightly.. hes a little odd, never has food in his fridge - only bottles of vitamins/minerals and had told me about the gospel of Thomas which was apparently important to him. He was fascinated by herbs and pharmacology, did assignments involving them where he could even when it barely made sense to. One day we had another mutual college friend over and the topic of religion had come up. Our other friend was skeptical but asking questions and I was answering but when it came to saying Jesus died for our sins... suddenly this guy was denying it was the correct interprettation of the story. He was laughing and saying 'no!' 'wrong!' like I was making a simple obvious mistakes and even reached out to slap my hand when I tried to press on about the gospel. I realized he had a very different idea about Christianity than me that he was keeping close to his chest. One day, after our courses had split and we werent seeing each other as much, also due to the fact he admitted he had put some kind of herb or vitamin in my drink the first night we hung out that he described as a "natural speed", he had asked me for a ride to a friends house he was staying at. I aggreed and we were walking out the front of the school together. There was a woman walking towards us to enter the school and suddenly, he switched to my other side and held his bag up in front of him in a weird way. I knew he was trying to not get the attention of the woman so I just looked down and kept going.. as we passed her, she called out "Jason?" which was his name. He said hello to her as if he hadnt noticed her but what came next, I never would have expected to hear. She had just been hired as a teacher at this college. She asked how he was doing and said it had been a long time.. then she asked if there were any covens nearby in our town. He gave an awkward chuckle and replied "uhh yeah!" and proceeded to list off several that were apparently nearby. She then went on to joke with him about how they had gone camping together in the Yukon for the purpose of doing witchcraft. He laughed it all off and said we had to get going and she said her goodbyes. We walked silently back to my car until he blurted out "So.. now you know im a witch!". I just said "yeah!". I took him to his apartment and we didnt hang out again. The 40min drive home I had a lot to think about. Why did this feel so targetted.. I had been working a night driving job and listening to bible studies all the time before school started. Why did it suddenly feel like this person sought me out and forced this friendship. Why wasnt he straight up about anything and allowed me to believe he believed what I did until he was tired of hearing my traditional version of things. It felt like God had put that woman in front of us on the walk out of the school. Thats my experience with the gospel of Thomas. Make of it what you will.
The Gospel of Thomas rejects the idea that Jesus died for our sins.
"“Thomas 70-If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth that which is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.” Salvation is in the hands of the individual.
Even the canonical gospels contradict this core doctrine, especially Matthew 25: 31-46 (parable of goats and sheep). The passage in Matthew was probably written before "died for our sins" became official and c ommonly accepted.
Been waiting for this… I come from Ohio heavy rural religious area and I’ve tried for very long to find my faith, for others it seems so easy and through my search for my faith I think I’ve found why. Ignorance wether conscious or subconscious some people choose to believe it despite understanding the inconsistency’s and other just never really learn about the background of the religion… to say you belive a book is purely the word of god and then let other human beings pick and choose what does and dosent constitute “divine” is a complete oxymoron we at least as a society need to move past the fundamentalist ideas that every word in these books is the inspired word of god when every conceivable angle says otherwise
Faith is best based on some form of direct expeerience of God. Then it moves beyond blind belief. There is the religion *of* Jesus, which is a great place to start a faith based orientation. There is the religion *about* Jesus, which is intensely mythological and rather worthless.
@@kenkaplan3654 I’ve had many experiences I considered at one time divine. However often times came after a traumatic experience the death of a pet, friend, loved one ect. And I could just as easily attribute these “spiritual experiences” my own mind trying to cope with my reality and make me feel better for example I have heard my passed grandmother speak to me on multiple occasions her voice cadence she answers all my questions but… it’s not really her it’s me my brain using the memories to manifest her becuase I couldn’t grieve her passing at that time. Idk maybe I’ve missed the point hopefully this is cohearant
For what it’s worth, the idea that every word in the Bible was directly dictated by God is not the historical view of Christianity. Catholicism, for instance, has states that the Bible is without error in “faith and morals”, meaning the claim to inerrancy is quite narrowly limited to ideas about God, good and evil, salvation, and closely related topics. In this view, the Bible is written by human authors who could misidentify dates and locations, badly estimate numbers, and employ literary devices that do not mean exactly what they say. I hope that context helps find some clarity for you!
@@jonathanstensberg It is obvious why some insist on inerrancy: there is no reason to expect it to be more reliable on one topic than another, or for its failings on one not to imply failings on others even harder to check. Rather, it should be most reliable on exactly those things easiest to check, establishing an upper bound on correctness, not a lower bound.
I actually need to verify translation from the coptic of one of the sayings. I was not able to do it by myself. I suspect that exsisting official translation cut the corner and borrowed from related canonic text. Any volunteers?
Love this crossover!
Yep, I've heard some people call it the Fifth Gospel.
It's more likely the first, pre-narrativization. 🤔
The verses where Jesus comments on unity and 2:1 comparisons are basically nonduality. Amazing to see this fundamental existential thought had been discovered independently by so many ancient religions, and yet, through the years we have lost this thread of truth.
Man, typically, worships the God of this World: Religion.
@tonydangelo778 the 👎 god👎 of this world is satan
2 Corinthians 4:4
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
@@PandaCheeks uh oh - someone didn't take their Greek lesson and fell for another bad translation (intentional in this case).
The word SATAN in Koine - sanatas means ADVERSARY/Enemy - not “The Devil” as English language religious folks (who worship doctrine, not Christ) translate it as (wait til you find out “hell” isn’t in the original Greek either - uh oh)
And
Satanas is NOT IN THAT VERSE.
Also, religion is the ultimate enemy of God - which you would know if you followed GOD instead of religion. Crushing people under the weight of religious law and doctrine was the sin of the Pharisees and why Christ told them they would see the kingdom of God last (and be shamed for rejecting Christ and choosing religion) just as many of today's religious Christians who crush others under the weight of doctrine and law instead of putting their faith in Christ.
Hope this helps! Love ya
@tonydangelo778 uh oh looks like someone hasn't read their Bible lately...🙈 anyways here's the same verse, different translation!
4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (Kjv) ;)
God bless and peace!
@@PandaCheeks Yes, that is correct - which is exactly what I said.
Religion blinds the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
People think they have their faith in Christ. Take their books, their traditions, their sacraments, and they do not have faith. You can tell if someone is religious and not putting their faith in God because they preach hatred, death and then justify it by saying it’s God’s will by pointing back to their religion while crushing people under the unaccomplishable weight of doctrine and law.
Same thing Christ told the Pharisees - which you would hear if you had ears to hear.
ਤੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਤੋਹੀ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਕੈਸਾ ॥
You are me, and I am You-what is the difference between us?
ਕਨਕ ਕਟਿਕ ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗ ਜੈਸਾ ॥੧॥
We are like gold and the bracelet, or water and the waves. ||1||
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
That was so bloody interesting.
I recently did a deep dive into researching whether Gnosticism is plausibly what Jesus actually preached. I've always been sympathetic to Gnosticism, so I went in equating Gnosticism to early Christianity, and believing that it's not useful to refer to it as a separate ideology, but after looking at the evidence, I've changed my mind.
I started by attempting to find any credible writing with first hand testimony of Jesus and what he believed, especially if it was apocryphal, but I also looked through the canon bible. My reasoning was, if we want to discover what Jesus believed, he would be the best person to ask. What I discovered is that there is exactly zero direct writings about Jesus. Those writings which claimed to be, or are claimed after the fact, by people who directly spoke to Jesus, when investigated all turn out to be, almost certainly, written later and by other people. Of the gospels, the oldest of them was likely written at least 40 years after Jesus's death, and while that's semi-plausible for it to be written by someone who knew him, it's stretching the limits.
The only biblical figure known to have actually written the books attributed to him is Paul, and Paul is an interesting one. He was definitely alive during the time of Jesus, but he doesn't even claim to have personally known Jesus. What's worse, every other book of the bible either definitively comes substantially after Paul's death, or is dependent on Paul's writings. While I personally think it's most likely Jesus was a real historical figure who was, long after his death, mythologized, I also find it very plausible that just about everything Christians believe about Jesus comes Chiefly from Paul, both from his writings, and his evangelism. I'd say there likely were other followers of Jesus who influenced Paul's writings, but overall, Christianity, in my view, was founded by Paul. He is indisputably the earliest and most influential author in the new testament.
What this means for Gnosticism is, if Jesus really did preach some secret gospel not also preached by Paul, we have absolutely no way of knowing. While Pauline Christianity clearly does date back to the first century, with Jesus's death being placed roughly around 30AD, there is no sign of Gnosticism until early in the second century. Perhaps before some of the canon bible, but definitely after Jesus died and the four canon gospels were written, which is well after Paul, the founder of Christianity as we know it, died.
If Gnostic thought does date back to Jesus, thus being part of Christianity all along, it would've had to have been preserved outside of any known writings, including those we could infer to exist through other writings, for at minimum, three generations after his death, as the early Gnostic thought seems to have originated either very late in the first century, or more likely, shortly after the turn of the century.
What seems to be undeniably true is that Gnosticism has it's origin both in Christianity through Paul, who the do revere, and Plutarch, a Platonist who served as a source for a lot of the ideas of Gnosticism. Keeping in mind that Gnostics were not simply followers of Paul, but also incorporated many other ideas, most noticeably from Plutarch, I think it definitely makes sense to view it as a separate religious movement. What solidifies this understanding more is the fact that, as soon as it started to gain traction, many early Christian priests denounced their ideas, which tells us that there already was a strong orthodox movement underway.
That said, I don't want to downplay the fact that these two general currents of Christianity did substantially intermingle, and many Gnostics would've never saw themselves as separate from any other Christians. To many, Gnostic ideas were simply part of Christianity, much in the same way Christianity is split into two distinct movements, Catholic and Protestant, but often people, especially those less educated, simply view Christianity as a whole as a single set of beliefs and practices. While many members of the church worked to expel Gnostic ideas, much of the proliferation of those ideas also came from priests, which also often led to their expulsion. It is likely that many members of the church who viewed themselves as orthodox held some, though relatively few, Gnostic beliefs. To put it simply, there were two distinct movements, with a substantial amount of intermingling, and there weren't officially separated until the Nicene Creed.
Saul of Tarsus:
An avid Jew who Persecuted the church then suddenly changed his mind and became a follower of Christ
Wrote a letter to the church at Corinth which is dated to within months and up to 5 years by historical scholars
This letter is in a form of an ancient creed, found in 1Corinthians15:1-8
This tells us what the early church accepted and what was required for salvation.
States that the early church accepted that
1. Christ died (for our sins)
2. Was buried
3. Rose again (the third day)
Gnosticism is pure VANITY. The ancients were under deep spiritual deceptions (pretty much the same as the world today). Many BOGUS manuscripts were written: just 'cos a text says "Jesus said" don't mean He *really said it.* Gnostic sects put words into Jesus' Mouth to suit their *vain theology.*
I'm an ex neo-vedantic (hindu roots) new ager. I used to be into so much "cosmic/spiritual" stuff: trance channelings, ancient wisdom, *gnosticism,* psychedelic drugs, hindu gurus and buddhist variants. I was illuminated by the *kundalini (serpent) spirit* then 8 years ago I got rightly enlightened by the *Holy Spirit* which proceeded to show me what a *fool* I was before.....
Spirit led to the REAL *Yahusha/Jesus Christ* and everything changed - *Paradigm Shifted.*
This is being *BORN AGAIN* and it's an ongoing surprise to me 😁
Turns out Spirituality is a *soul serious* business taken way too lightly by *far too many* .....
..... the end-times are *dead ahead;* a time of tribulation is near.
It escapes the notice of our *self-absorbed,* glamour-saturated world that we're in a spiritual WAR for souls. The immensity of *ignorance* is astonishing: supernal powers are BEDAZZLING the minds of the masses (Ephesians 6:12). We've inherited *ancient* SPIRITUAL *subversion* ......... *the Earth is fallen* ..... the holistic fields of nature are fallen state. *"Morphic Resonance"* is OUT of affinity with DIVINITY; *Death is all too familiar:* natural life hunts, KILLS and *feeds* on itself. Humanity is a spiritually *fallen race* highly prone to *deceit and delusion.*
FRANKLY, we *need* a SAVIOUR and by Jesus Christ we have a GREAT ONE.
As a new ager I couldn't believe (I was *damn sure* I knew better) but in the *Light of Spirit* Jesus really is the *Way, the truth and the Life* just like He said: no one comes to GOD except through Jesus, there's no other way (Matthew 7:13-14). Being a neo-vedantist I wasn't convinced, yet it transpires that the Bible is Spirit breathed, written by men inspired by the *Holy Spirit.* Jesus is vividly portrayed and endorsed in the new testament, in fact he's apparent in the old testament too (Luke 24:27 & 44) and by *His LIGHT* we're allowed to *see* that and *know Him.* Any previously perceived discrepancies or contradictions are ironed out and the supernatural narrative flows most beautifully....
The Bible is the Revelation of *Jesus Christ* (Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7 & 45:23, Daniel 7:13-14, Matthew 28:18, Mark 14:61-62, Revelation 1:7-8 & 18, Rev 19:11-21)
You're assuming there wasn't any oral tradition and everything had to go back to Paul. If there was indeed a Jesus, teachings from people who actually knew him must have been transmitted until they found someone to write them down or allowed to do so. Your interpretation would only be coherent is Jesus was Paul's invention.
@@SpiritLevel888please visit a psychiatrist. The drugs made you psychotic
@@eprd313 That's incorrect. As I said, it does seem likely Jesus was a real historical figure, and as I said, it's likely Paul was influenced by existing beliefs, but it is a fact that everything we know about Christianity now does go back to Paul. There is no doubt about that. He is the author of Christianity, and it's views are chiefly influenced by his views. There may very well have been oral traditions, but with rare and unconfirmed exception, everything written about Jesus comes substantially after Paul's death and is clearly influenced by Paul's views. Any oral tradition, if it conflicted with Paul's beliefs, would've long been almost entirely overshadowed by Paul's teachings, both written and unwritten.
What a fantastic episode. I follow both of you and this is a great conversation. Both of you have the gift and the will to talk with facts and simple language anyone can access. No hiding in pseudo philosophical speak to mask weaknesses ( jordan peterson). Thank you and I hope you keep working together .
Elaine Pagels has suggested the John vs Thomas thesis..as well as the John vs Peter perhaps
at 27:00 theirs a moment where he lights up talking about the doubting Thomas ... maybe im just high and am an arm chair psychologist but he says himself when the faith that makes more sense to him is a spiritual resurrection. My man is finding his faith... me too good luck
I’d like to point out that the primordial man in Plato’s Symposium weren’t just androgynous. They came in three types, some that were half male and half female, like which are referenced in the video, some that both halves were male, and some that both haves were female. The myth was used as one of the ways to explain the origin of love, which is the topic of Plato’s Symposium as a whole. The myth explains that humans aren’t in their original whole state and are seeking out their other half for completion. However Plato makes a point in saying that the humans which descended from the primordial man in which both halves were male are superior than those that came from the androgynous and female humans(got to love that Greek misogyny). I think this context helps explain verse 114 in the Gospel of Thomas in that it shows people(Jews, Platonists, and early Christians) did just think the male spirit was superior to the female. If more people realized these beliefs are simply irreconcilable with feminism then maybe we could work towards a better secular humanist society
Según los Griegos la generación implica un elementos femenino y masculino y ni significan estrictamente hombre y mujer así como los géneros gramaticales. La generación eterna o emanativa parece implicar un espíritu femenino activo y no solo pasivo que es el propio de la matriz en la generación material, pero el espíritu masculino es aquel que es principio de la reproducción pues implica forma y solo esto distinguía masculino y femenino en estos términos. Del Adán primordial es separado el espíritu femenino y se vuelven 2 entes discretos. Me parece que utilizar unos comentarios del banquete de Platón (mas bien parece retomar algo empedocleano y además no acepta tal teoría porque se la atribuye a Aristófanes en el mismo relato) y un evangelio apócrifo para sacar conclusiones así es apresurado.
Who says feminism = better society?
when is JBP episode coming?
So excited for that!!
I think Peterson is looking for a new goofy coat to wear, lol. There's literally nothing else JBP has to add to anything outside of an expansive vocabulary.
Idiotic word salad time
Ah ha... Gotcha... What exactly do you mean when you say coming? People were dancing you know, and it was so beautiful 😭, and when you say episode, what the bloody hell are we to understand by that?
@@Philusteenhe doesn't even use his expensive vocabulary correctly. He reminds me of myself and I in primary school, using hard words I hadn't even learnt properly yet
Love these discussions. Personally, I think we can understand these saying/quotes a little better if we come from an Eastern religious or philosophical background.
Alex, do you have a discord, I would love to engage in conversations about the topics you cover. Cheers
He doesn't respond to comments
@@Sui_Generis0 do you know the answer lol
I have a pet theory that the "doubting Thomas" narrative added included to dispell the notion that Thomas was impersonating his twin Jesus, pretending to be Jesus reincarnated. If Thomas is seen to have been in the same place at the same time as resurrected Jesus, he cannot be accused of impersonating him.
In this case wouldn't it be someone else doing the doubting? I love it though. I don't believe any of these people existed, but I prefer this Monty Pythonian presentation over some literalist BS.
@@BDnevernind If it actually happened it would have to be someone else, but I think it is just a narrative that was created to combat a circulating narrative that the "resurrection" was just Thomas pretending to be Jesus.
@@samwoodsywoodsI think it would fit well as he could be the young man running away in the cm garden of Gethsemane, attempting to replace Jesus on being captured. Having great guilt of not succeeding, He doubts Jesus survived/resurrected. A theory of course.
You guys sound like insane conspiracy theorists lmao
@@christopherjohnson9167 Consider that there are people believing that a guy actually resurrected 🤣
We need ariff Ahmed from Cambridge, he is an exceptional mind with same interests
I think Alex has it about right at 55:40 ... about an enlightenment (i prefer self realisation) available for all. Although it's not just about knowledge but also understanding which ideally will open your mind and heart. There's a buddhist saying which goes: "Understanding is the path to true love" - To know yourself and to know the other, as oneself, meaning a shared 'spirit' or 'being'. I experienced this mystical state some 29 years ago when i was 26. At the time i experienced it like a near death experience ... but like a psychological death, a death of the ego or false self so to speak. I had been through two years of trauma due to narcissistic abuse which fragmented or shook my sense of self, such that i just didn't know who or what i was anymore and in my suffering i was forced really, to 'find myself' and overcome my crisis. The actual process far too convoluted and nuanced to explain here, but cut to about 18 months later i had reached a point, one October night, in a kind of surrender of self acceptance and allowing whatever to be, i let go. In hindsight there were some very unusual sensations at the onset of the experience that tell me that one way of describing what happened is that i had a 'kundalini awakening' (“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up" ). So on this night i was anxious, hurting emotionally and suffering, but with a deep love and now, acceptance for my predicament. I had to let go of this ex' of mine, a woman i had loved deeply but who had abused and and betrayed me and caused me so much harm. I didn't want to but knew i had to, ... to cut the ties, and let her go and do whatever, and have a new begining myself, i'd done alot of inner work over those 18 months and there has been alot of healing and self love. So anyway a moment arrived and i let go, surrendered, and it wasn't intentional but rather it came over me, took me, and i let out a little whimper and kind of collapsed but no loss of consciousness ... just the deepest peace i've ever felt in my life, like all my burdens had vanished and i was in a totally rested state. I felt a very strange sensation ... as if there was a large metal or heavy ball bearing, or something, right up my ass, wobbling from side to side in a steady repeating rhythm. Even in that moment it bought up thoughts of how a rattlesnake rattles it's tail as it reminded me of that kind of rhythm, and it was so curious, ... what was this? (with the benefit of hindsight i think a muscular spasm or like something going on with the g spot?). - Then in this serene and deeply restful, peaceful state, a light flashed into being before my eyes, seemingly a few feet away perhaps but very much before me and my attention was drawn to and into this light. "Well done you have learned to love" it said. "But you cannot stay here in this state, however if you look after your body, ... treat it like a temple, you may be able to return at some point in the future". - I had lost awarness of a body in this state yet it also seemed that my center of consciousness was just on top of my head. I remember looking away from the light and still aware somewhat of my room and surroundings, and looking back at the light again, and then ... realisations. I was that light. "That's me?" i thought. I became aware that i was 'spirit' itself (not 'a' spirit, just spirit), or call it 'being' or a conscious presence and self, but also that there was no 'other'. I knew i was both nothing and nobody, yet everything and everybody. It seems my so called 'third eye' had fully opened also as i was experiencing everything in a very different way, most noticably, visually and spacially, and seeing auras if you like, ... energy fields and formations, patterns and also symbolic elements and it was as if whatever i thought about or focused on i would recieve information about both visually and just by 'knowing'. So in a sense a trance like visionary state but super aware, super-conscious. The light gradually faded and i kind of toyed around with my awareness seeing what i could do with it and i recall at one point 'looking' into my body (yes the one i'd lost awareness of) but not with my eyes, just by focusing awareness on it. After a while the experience faded and i returned to normal consciousness. Stunned, somewhat shaken, and intrigued by the experience. I stood up feeling quite invigorated and powerful and did a curious thing where i used my hands in a smoothing motion a good several times, from my heart down to my groin, as if i was pushing something gently back down ... kinda like some kind of grounding thing you might do in tai chi, ... kinda curious considering i much later came to understand it in the sense of a kundalini awakening, which kind of entails movement of energy and consciousness.
So all in all i was kinda shocked by the occurence of that night. I'd never heard of people having experiences like that. I concluded that others must sometimes experience the same thing. Christ consciousness? A 'christ experience'? Yeah sure, considering the context of my predicament concerning someone i loved and their abuse and betrayal, and my struggles to understand and love and everything and the eventual acceptance and forgiveness. It actually was a massive, .. heroic even, effort and easily the most difficult and testing two years of my life. I draw many comparisons to the gospel of Thomas however the persona of Jesus kind of muddies the waters and confuses the issue. Spirit or 'being' doesn't have a name and it's a mistake to identify it with any one person over another. God is nothing other than your own self
When you find God, you have found yourself.
@@janb8314 I think it was Rumi who is quoted as saying "I searched for god and found only myself. I searched for myself and found only god".
I think the best way to understand the Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas is not as a real entity or deity but as an archetype. The Jesus in the gospel states "I will become you", but this is not accurate and more descriptive, in truth you were always that, but just didn't know it, however that's not to say there's no effort involved ... you still need to all the shadow work, get humbled, see through the illusion of the egoic persona and transcend it ect and that no easy task and takes dedication and sacrifice and a sincere and single minded effort to grow into that self and manifest it in your personhood.
I bought the book off all the lost gospel it very interesting where most was got off the copper scrolls.. It very important to think and ask questions and not one knows till we take our last breathe
1:15:26 theyre talking about the spirit. but all you intellectuals and non spiritual people dont or cant comprehend what that is.
Hylics
Also, Thomas has no resurrection account. John forces Thomas to acknowledge a resurrection. Polemical? You bet!
Competitive messaging, internal conflict, and schism are essential features of the movement. The tracks are laid out both within and between individual books, canonical and apocryphal works included. The irony of John is the prominence of Jesus's prayer for unity.
Alex is such a smart man and very patient with aggressive people who dislike him, he doesn’t loose his coolness, ever, very mature.
He’s British ;)
@@studiocorax8790 So is Piers Morgan
I can't believe Andrew got in his face like that! 😯
So interesting, thank you!! Will you be covering the Gospel of Mary? :)
So... Wouldn’t Jesus having a twin brother that looks exactly like him also provide for a completely plausible alternative explanation for those who witnessed the resurrection?
Except there is no evidence of that
No, for many reasons. Here's a few:
The Disciples/Apostles would have known Jesus enough to know he had a twin brother (and could've told them apart), and there's no evidence he had a twin brother. Also, to have a twin and then be able to simply slot him in as a resurrected Jesus is highly implausible, seeing as how much of Jesus' family didn't like him, and he'd have had to had a secret brother that was so on board with he teachings that he conspired with Jesus to play the part of his resurrected form, while maintaining the secrecy of his existence so that nobody could say it was his twin brother. Also, you have the problem of the empty tomb, sincere, prolonged corporeal visitations of Jesus in the flesh as seen by multiple people in multiple attestations. It simply doesn't make any sense.
All glory to God this is good stuff! Love yall ❤
I only have so many praises in my quota, which god are we giving glory here ?
@@bootskanchelsis3337 you choose
Glory to science!
I love science too. Thank God for science, where would we be without it!
@@TheChivalrousChickenTender but science disproves God?
Also in the latest movie about St.Paul, when Luke approaches Paul and tells him that the people ran to listen to him (Paul), he said the following, at least by meaning if I am not mistaken, that Paul spoke like the Master (like Jesus), it is as if the saw Jesus in him when the latter preached.
I want to know all things of the world and ve educated like Alex, what books should I read