The nuts and bolts of engine of Fasteners 101. Do you need ARP bolts?? Don't waste your money!
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- Опубліковано 3 лип 2023
- Fasteners are the most important and most misunderstood parts in engines and all machines. I will help you to understand how they work and how to apply them in your build.
Watch for Fasteners 201, a follow up on this video in response to your comments. - Авто та транспорт
Thanks for your constant education. Cheers from Calgary.
My pleasure!, thanks John. Watch for more. AG
On my 454bbc I was concerned about the 3/8 rod bolts and asked the machine shop to install 7/16 bolts but he said the rods aren't big enough so he installed 3/8 arp bolts. Now I feel warm and cuddly.
You can't go larger diameter true, but you can go to a higher quality at the same diameter (eg. arp etc.).
Thanks for the feedback Joe, that is exactly the result I was looking for. More to come on this subject. AG
I did the same on my 454.
Thanks for all of your informative videos. Understanding beats memorization every time. It really helps with decision-making when guys like you verify what my local machinist says.
Thanks for watching and commenting Hank. AG
That was a great video. I have never seen that subject explained so thoroughly,
Thanks for the nice compliment Dan. and thanks for watching my channel. AG
Gooday from Melbourne Australia !!!! Cheers Mario.
Thanks for checking in Marsx. I appreciate all the support from Australia. AG
Another fine learning session from the great white north... Deepest sympathies from my family to yours . ..
Thanks very much Kiesha for the comment and concern. I will pass it on. AG
This did provide me with some good info that I hadn't given much thought too before but now that I've heard it said outloud it makes alot of sence. Thanks for the video. Good stuff right here.
Thanks Jesse, always enjoy your comments. AG
I replaced all of mine in my L31 Vortec 350 build due to the fact they are TTY bolts and it is recommended they are replaced because of stretch and i replaced every part in that engine with new parts and i didn't scrimp on the fasteners and using and since i was using alum. heads new bolts with washers were required . As a kid we never replaced them we just cleaned them on a wire wheel and tapped the mating holes and never had a problem. As expensive as parts are these days to protect my investment another $100+ in good bolts ain't going to break the bank. Also before i pay some engine shop a ton of money just to resize some rods i'll buy new ones with ARP bolts already in them. The local hack wanted $18 a rod to pull the wrist pins and resize them and ARP fasteners was another $90 charge on top. He wanted so much to do a valve job on a set of Vortec heads I bought Alum. heads from Skip White and then bought an old Black and Decker vibrocentric seat grinder set for $150 and valve grinder for $150 and am going to do them myself. The grinders are cheap on Market place and i'm going to set my milling machine up to be able to surface heads. Prices are getting way out of hand for engine work and the shops around here are way slow in getting it done.
Thanks Mark. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience. AG
Very well said, thank you.
Thanks for your comment @Drh. AG
Very good explanation.
Glad it was helpful! AG
Good info, thanks for sharing. From Brisbane Australia
Thanks Carl. Brisbane is also high on the list. I appreciate your support. AG
thanks for the information I for one agree the factory bolts are very good quality, I ran them, head bolts rod bolts main bolts, not even pink rods, stock bolts in a 355 sbc TRW pistons 11.1 press pin 292 heads, Z28 cam some porting, cast crank [total under ratted] in a supper comp dragster starting line launch at 5200.shift 6300, 7200 rpm at the finish line, 2000 RPM from start to finish run after run never broke any thing years of service and low maintenance.= fun at the races,= low budget ps dyno at 548 HP.
Thanks for sharing Fred. Old school drag racing, I love it. Must have been a fun ride. The only difference between stock rods and pink rods is that they are shot peened for stress relief. AG
outstanding.
Thanks for the nice compliment Oscar, and thanks for watching. AG
Good subject.
Maybe another one is tap class fit - you know - 1B 2B 3B etc.
Using a sloppy tap to clean head bolt holes might do more damage than help.
Thanks John, good suggestion. My process is to use penetrating oil in the holes, then spin a head bolt in and out with my low torque nut runner. If it spins freely, I am good to go. For the same reason that you suggested, I only use a tap if the threads are tight after doing this. AG
typically I have extra bolts lying around... Ill take a cut off wheel and make slots long ways to make my own thread chaser......
Thank You
You are welcome STP, watch for a follow up and more info on this topic. AG
When I put my mild street 355 together the rods were old mystery rods so I tossed arp rod bolts and I installed arp main studs in it too but that was just for hell of it, neither were expensive so why not. The rod bolts are not a bad idea, it would suck to have a bolt fail and send a rod through the block but at 350hp or less the main studs are totally not necessary even with a 2 bolt block. There's the arp bolts will distort the rods and possibly the mains but clearances on a mild street engine are not a crucial aa race engine so as long as it's very little it shouldn't be an issue, my engine was put together 15 years ago and not rotating assembly issues, it's a good idea to check roundness after torqued with new arp fasteners, I didn't I just threw caution to the wind. When I freshen up a new short block I have I may toss rod bolts but mains will just go back in, I'd use the other ones in the new block but new one is a 4 bolt and I don't know if studs in the inner 2 and oem bolts on the outer would be an issue maybe maybe not?I'm not going to bother tryin it.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences on bolts Budget. ARP bolts torqued to the same spec impart the same clamping force as stock rod bolts. AG.
Really good video .... Might think about a second one on the same subject ... Inspection of old bolts for damage and corrosion .... Cleaning and prep of bolts and threaded holes so you don't damage the threads and get a good torque... Proper torque techniques ie oil and steps ... Proper use of bolt grade ie when to use a 2 a 5 or 8 or grade 9 bolt ...also I know you are really gen 1 engine but might want to just touch on torque to yield bolt ....
Just a bit of my experience .... Most rod and rod bolt failure is either improper torque or the piston trying to stick in the bore and increasing the load
Thanks for the input and suggestions as always Scott. I am planning a follow up and will try to include all the points you are making. AG
Used all OEM fastners on alot of claim type oval track engines pin'd rocker studs and worked great.
Thanks Larry, your comment is a good testament to the message in this video. AG
I have a 351 Cleveland that has lockwashers on the original 2 oil pump mounting bolts, from Ford. In rebuilding I replaced with socket head that I can wire lock.
Interesting, thanks for the info Johnny. AG
Good show👍I'm not against loc-tite, I rarely use it, but a person needs to learn to properly tighten a fastener, most rod bolts fail in the overlay part of the stroke.
Thanks Mark, I don't think I described this correctly in the video. You are correct. The overlap occurs at the end of the exhaust stroke when the piston is on the way up and the exhaust valve is closing and the intake valve is starting to open. Thanks for your input as always. AG
If you lighten up your pistons and then the con rods 5/16 fine to 7 k
We had a low torque high vibration situation with small bolts backing out, not wanting to use loctite, with the lock washers we thought we had the situation fixed, but it just seemed to delay it. Not sure but maybe the heat diminishes it's effective sprung force. Next we used a bolt with the locking ribs made into the underside of the bolt head and that solved the situation. That kinda points at the lock washers loosing there sprung tension over time or with heat whereas the bolt having the multiple solid raised ribs with sharp edges it really does bite in and help keep the bolt in a locked position. It only applies to a low torque soft material situation.
Good point Steve. I would not use a lock washer in anything over 3/8" and it would have to be a grade 8 lock washer.
In a torque situation, the torque will crush the lock washer and soften the joint. The problem with lock washers is that they don't really lock, but they make you feel good. AG
@@goldsgarage8236 I just noticed your reply and I had to use Google to make sure I had the name right on these particular washers. There are several different types of lock washers but I believe the type we are talking about are the 'split lock washer' that has a joint and are the most common type and usually what comes to my mind when referring to a lock washer. They don't work good but i understand the principle and I believe they are indeed made from spring steel. I have a lot of old bolts in my bin that I believe were some type of GM application, has the split washer but will not slide over the threads. Most are about the size of an old sbc water pump bolt and some are small what I would call fender bolts. If you over torque them the washer will spread at the joint or grow in diameter. I've even had them open up enough that they jumped up on the hex part of the bolt head.
The best way to tighten rod bolts properly is with a stretch gauge, right? That eliminates errors due to lubricants and torque wrench calibrations.
That is exactly correct John. I am planning a follow up on this subject and I will try to remember to include this point. AG
This is what my machinist said also. Hes been doing engines for 40 years.
He said all original bolts were just fine. However he resized the big end on the rods since they almost always are out of round.
He also refused balancing my crank. However he think equalizing the weights of rods and pistons are worth your time (i did it myself to within 1-2 gr).
He also did plateau honing and decked the block.
Nice with a machinist that saves you money but does the important things👌
For a 6000 rpm street engine that is..
Thanks Magnus. You are lucky to have him. All good advice. AG
@@goldsgarage8236 hes such an interesting guy to talk to as Im sure all are that have worked so long with a craft.
A fun fact regarding the weighting of rods and pistons is that he even does it on tractors and other heavy engines.
On a standard farming tractor he says the engine revs some 200-300 rpm faster at idle due to the more balanced rod/piston.
And on a street car that only sees max rpm(6500?) less than 10% of the time he argues that additional balance from the crank is wasted. Especially if the rod/pistons are lighter than stock.
I ground and polished the rods and with a change of piston Im around 36gr lighter on each rod/piston.
Its a gm 3.4 v6 that with some luck might be around 300 lb/ft and 250-270 hp (around 5800rpm).
Im limited on the rpm due to the auto gearbox in my Fiero. My headporter feels the engine could go a fair bit higher due to the heads being on the bigger side.
But the engine needs to be put together and put in the car before Ill worry about such things 🙃
Thanks Magnus, all good information. good luck with your build. AG
@@magnusdanielsson2749 I'm developing interests in the fiero scene. I have an L32/4l65eHD I would like to find a nice GT to drop into. I think a manual(hybrid 4spd deal, f23, or F40 perferably) would be fun and ultimately powered by a built LS4. In such a lite car with rear engine I can only imagine.
@@stevenbelue5496 I think an all aluminum ls would be a good choice. Like the ls1.
Mated to an F gearbox would be a really nice combo I think.
Would be a fairly easy swap I think in terms of what you get in return.
I wouldnt think it worth swapping in an l32. Seem like a waste of time seeing how youd have to redo your efforts for the ls.
In any case to me around 300-400 hp is more than enough for the car.
Fun fact is that the designer of the fiero secretly designed the engine bay to fit a v8. 🙂
Very good video also builders who go for new arp rod bolts get the added expense of resizing the Rods. I didn't have to go there?
Correct, thanks for the tip Jacqueline. AG
Question: If i have my rods resized & ARP bolts installed when i check my rods or when i assemble my engine should retorque my rod bolts to whatever they where torqued at when the rod was resized or should torque to stretch? Becouse i dont believe the shop will torque to stretch when they assemble them. I think they will just torque to what the recommendation is.
Good question, I am making a video about the Pontiac 400 right now and i am addressing this point. Don't worry about having a stretch gauge, use the ARP torque specification, use the lube and you will be fine. It will give the same results. AG
Thanks for the real world examples, 11/32 rod bolts on a 3.25" stroke never scared me, but Fords 5/16 on anything longer than a 289s stroke did. What do you think of industry stock replacement bolts ? Example Pioneer head bolts if converting an old small block to Vortec heads.
Thanks Tom, I would not worry about Pioneer head bolts, use them! AG
Pioneer makes outstanding engine fasteners.
very informative-how do u tell if a bolt has been over tightened?
Thanks Alex, if the wrench keeps turning and the torque drops off, it is stretched and overtightened. If the bold is out of the engine or machine, you can measure it. IT will be necked down or thinner in the center, and longer than the original length. After passing through the yield point, it goes through what is called plastic deformation, or necking before it snaps. See you tomorrow.!
What about head bolts that go into water jackets that need a sealant.......the sealant wont be a good lube
and the torque setting will be wrong.......Cheers
Very good point Kermets. Cannot use ARP thread lube on SBC head bolts. I do use Permatex thread lube. It has some lubricating qualities compared to a dry thread. I have had good results with this practice. Thanks for your input. AG
Thank you. I'm a boomer and have been scratching my head about some of these 'new rules' that seem to be driven not by any engineering, but just by Apple style fanboy marketing. I've come to believe that critical thinking just doesn't exist in young folks. They believe everything they read by anyone on the internet, without any real data to support it.
Thanks 100amps. That is exactly the message I was trying to send. Marketing makes people waste money on things that they don't need. In this world you have to think for yourself. AG
I feel like bigger lock washers are only good for lag bolts on something like a wooden deck or something like that... With that in mind I think modern "timberloc$$$" get rid of the need for them entirely and we should melt down all the grade 2 lock washers in the world for scrap
Thanks Ian, I agree completely. AG
May I ask, what are your thoughts on 400 SBC head bolts? I was told by one builder that all 400 SBC engines have small cracks between the steam holes on the block. So if you rebuild a 400 SBC, I was told to use ARP studs instead of OEM bolts to reduce the risk of blowing a gasket (because of tiny cracks in-between the steam holes on used 400 SBC blocks) Any truth to this? Or do you think I'd be ok with stock OEM bolts. (BTW: my build is a bone stock 400 SBC, stock 400 heads and stock cam 194/203 390/410. The engine will never see ore than 3100 rpm. It's for an old 1976 C class motor home)
Thanks for the question JR.
first, lets do the math. the SBC head has 17 bolts each 7/16" diameter. Lets assume the stock OEM bolts are only Grade 2 which is the lowest possible. The proof load or tensile strength of a Grade 2 bolt is 5,850 pounds. If torqued to 75% of the proof load the clamping force per bolt is 4.387 pounds per bolt.
The total clamping force between the head and block is then 4,387 x 17= 74,579 pounds or 37.2 Tons.
There are 4 bolts clamping each cylinder so the force per cylinder is 17,548 pounds or 8.77 Tons.
Lets look at it another way.
The clamping force is induced by torque stretching the bolt. The ARP specification for bolts is 70ft.lb. and for studs is 55ft.lb. The torque speciation for an OEM stock bolt is 65ft.lb.
I have not experienced problems with 400SBC head gaskets, however I usually use aftermarket aluminum heads.
Based on these calculations and my experience, I do not see a problem with stock OEM or standard FEL PRO head bolts.
That said, your builder may have some specific experience and reason for recommending ARP.
Remember, thousands of 400 engines were produced by GM with OEM bolts without issue that I am aware of.
I hope this helps your decision making. AG
@@goldsgarage8236 Thank you very much for the reply! Yes, this really helps. I wish had your videos and advice years ago when I started working on engines. We only had hot rod magazines, limited money and great dreams...so we made a lot of mistakes lol. Thank you again!
400s develop deck cracks but only when really pushed to their limits. In this situation with stock rebuild and low rpm I would not worry one bit. If your trying for max power out of a stock 400 block, filled and splayed+girdle, w/pwr addr, cracks around the middle bolt holes between cylinders were among the first things we noticed(w/studs). Aftermarket block is needed at that point.
The Vortec 350 head bolts are garbage. The local head shop provides new bolts with the heads.
All my old Chevy fasteners get reused.
Thanks for the info medium. AG