ARP bolts have a far more STRINGENT quality & assurance testing process over an OEM bolt. That is an advantage on its own. We had a Circle Track motor that used a windage tray and it would fracture OEM GM bolts at times (yes it was tune-up and detonation issues but, the other parts were surviving) anyhow....Substitution with ARP studs resolved that issue. Also the ARP "LS motor" fasteners are not "Torque to yeild" so if your testing and taking apart things....They give you a viable option that saves money. ARP rod bolts will give you a better fastener than any of the OEM rod bolts including the SPS "boron bolts" they used in L-88 and LS-6 Big Block Chevys.
Agreed. I used to use Milodon and SPS bolts too. I could never understand re-using the OE fasteners on anything but the most budget build stock rebuild. Hardware is probably the cheapest investment you could make in a rebuild. I had some cheap OE rods bolts just start to loosen up and twist off torquing to stock spec when I was rolling in some bearings to freshen up an engine. The OE's are barely good enough. The rod bolt is probably the most critical fastener in an engine. A set of upgraded ARP bolts for a V8 was well under $100 a few years ago. It's a no brainer.
Hey AG, Tim here, what a GREAT vid to prove certain myths......we use ARP fasteners whenever we can, just, SUPER quality.....as the HP/stress increases, we use as many ARP bolts as possible......but it PROVES, if one has a stock rebuild, OEM fasteners wud be fine.....when ur makin, lets say 150% more power than OEM specs, a good rule (i think) is to go with ARP, because, they are stronger, and will tolerate the higher power stresses, MUCH better!!......i just assembled a '69 SCJ428 short block.....now will be 464 C.I., and has a good sized camshaft (.590lift, 236° @ .050 dur hyd roller) ...all ARP stuff.....only way to have some insurance on maintaining our .0025 clrnc on our mains and rods......LOVED the vid....SMART!!...it validates my sub for SURE!!....TY sir!!
If you can get your hands on new old stock, those old materials are not the same as used today. A company like ARP sell piece of mind for most folk. If you use a set of standard torque to yield bolts, when you do the final angle sequence, just take note the differences in torque required to get to those angles. Motor store parts are even worse
I'm pretty sure when I got my bolt kit for a big block Chrysler that ARP raised the torque numbers for their Hardware. I believe that was done to achieve the required stretch on their much stronger bolts. I believe it was 10 to 20 more foot-pounds which might alter the shape of the rod cap or main bearing
Great video! Another confirmation that agrees with my findings. I even find the same with studs vs factory bolts on late model LS engines. I also use ARP on the gen4 cracked rods without seeing any excessive deformation where machining might be required. Just keep checking those clearances!
When you torque main cap bolts, or Rod bolts, head bolts, "You must pull on the torque wrench with a continuous steady motion to get repetitive results. You should also apply 20-30 pounds first too each main cap bolts before going too final torque.
Excellent information as always! I personally have seen variances in main bearing clearances using studs vs. bolts. This however would be the exception rather than the rule. When there are differences they amount to approx. .0001 -.0003. Insignificant for all but the most Ultra High-performance engines. Some builders claim they've seen differences of up to .001. I never have. Also, a reminder when using studs that are hand-tightened into a block...Make certain that all threads are clean and the proper lube is used AND make certain there isnt't debris of any sort down in the pocket of stud register. You want the stud to be bottomed against the block and not against some foreign material. Failure to check for this has gotten engine builders into trouble. B.T.W. Nice to hear the reminder to store crankshafts upright!
@@goldsgarage8236 Always enjoy your videos and the information, Alan. Even as a Ford engine builder and racer for over fifty years. Like you, experience rules and shared knowledge will help keep our interests alive.😉
Richard petty and other drivers of the 1960s and 1970s went 200 mph back then in race cars week after week with using stock production modified engine blocks and other parts and they used the stock fasteners of the time so I base my ideas off of what has been tried and tested by Richard petty enterprises.
Keep in mind they were using factory fasteners but they were relatively new of course not 50 odd years old and been in/out and torqued up to who knows what in that time. I still use heaps of factory fasteners that are 50 odd years old but I have any question on the bolts condition I go for new in the appropriate grade or ARP, simply to get a new fastener, not because the factory stuff was bad.
@craig8187 obviously the bolts and fasteners were new when they used them ! That is the point of my comment why would anyone with a brain use 50 yr old bolts?
I have seen cases of where ARP studs have been used on a variety of engine components (lets concentrate on conrods and main bearing caps) where the use of an ARP stuff has changed the ‘shape and size’ of the tunnel…. I’ve also seen cases where there has been no difference in shape or size of the tunnel…. The key here is to check, check and check again…. Now in the case of a high performance engine build, you should be checking clearances and main tunnel alignment anyway. There is a very good chance in the case of main tunnel alignment that it’s not straight anyway, regardless if using an old seasoned block or a new DART or ARROW block. So if you have to straighten the main tunnel or resize the rods, you may as well be doing it with the ARP fasteners (why cheap out with old or standard fasteners) that are being used in the build and have them torqued with the required lube during the machining process. Plus ARP fasteners are cheap insurance for rotating components and they are a known quantity and a far more reliable fastener than an old fasteners that you do not know ‘how it was torqued and how much it has been torqued to in its life’ Anyway that is my experience and opinion. Good video 👍🇦🇺
Another way I see things, I prefer studs over bolts, because of the more even stretch applied on the shank of the fastener, with a bolt there is more a twisting stress induced than on a stud, of course it takes a lot to stress to failure a bolt in a twisting stress, but it is one issue less to think about. I will use ARP studs if I see main bearing cap walk/fretting, that will indicate that I need to increment the torque on the fastener, since the yield strength is higher on ARP that allows me to increase the torque in 20% increment keeping an eye on the bore, and later to check after the engine is put to work and disassemble again if the main cap walk or fretting still is present, this apply to any matting surface, but this is how I do things, not saying I right I just have my process or getting there.
Very good AL, I feel better about my 383 stroker, that I don't have to take it apart a recheck the clearances. I have that same dial bore gauge, it's made to be used with the black cover on the dial head, so when you set it down it doesn't get bumped. You just can't put it in the case that way. Thanks again for sharing this.
Thanks Bill, I was in the GM McKinnon Industries factory in 1969. They were building 307's at the time. I was amazed to see how they torqued all the head bolts at once with machines. No computers either. AG
I don't have precision measuring tools. I rely on my machine shop. I do however have inch pound torque wrenches. I measure rotational force when assembling an engine as it goes together. Good thing as a reputable bearing manufacturer had a bad 1/2 main bearing in the box and I caught the difference in rotational force. It was not huge but would have been a big problem if not detected. Just a thought. Thanks for the educational lessons. I am learning cool stuff.
You're supposed to torque to the engineered design spec based on the thread or facing surface lubricant when torquing. ARP moly grease has less friction than the traditional motor oil used. If you torque to the service manual spec with the moly lube it would overload the fastener beyond the designed clamping force. This can cause the journals to become out of round and possible excess stress on the fastener. ARP bolts generally tell you what the spec is with their grease.
Very Informative video...I haven't measured to verify but would think considerable changes (+0 to --25% fastener Torque) wouldn't change bearing clearance....Fastener bolts (Designed to Stretch) not likely to dimensionally Compress block main bearing Cap ID size....Largest majority of Torqued to Un-torqued dimensional change is in the bolt (Or Stud) Length (Stretch) compared to block/cap Compressed size....Again, haven't measured this to actually verify the intuitive thoughts on the bolt "Torque" myth.....
Hey never used arp bolts or products but all of the other manufacturers recommend that you replace the bolts every rebuild so basically 1 time than toss them and buy new ones But you said about the secret sauce and oil was the same after 7 uses so I think it's OK to reuse them more times by what you said..... AND I know the crank and head bolts do stretch is that right
Great video, i really like your in depth explanation. Have you ever considered doing a comparison/testing on engine assembly lubes? i was thinking of everything from Detroit Diesel International compound #2 Permatex Assembly lube, , Chicago Manufacturers #2, ARP assembly lube, Schaeffer's moly, Sae 30 and any "jingle formulations(STP + Marvel Mystery Oils ATF, and 10w30) or any additional home brew. It would be great if you could get Technical Data sheets I have not had any luck on these but it would be great to know the compositions Keep up the great work very informative
Alot of this stuff is marketing to make money these aftermarket companies make nice parts but it is not always necessary many people believe what they see on TV and the media
Great video! I have a DART 351W block with 7/16” flywheel bolts. I’m using the ARP flywheel bolts for the build. Instructions say 85 ft/lbs with the ultra lube under head and Loctite 242 on the threads. You mentioned that you have to be careful what your are clamping as well. What would you say is the max torque for an ARP flywheel bolt with their ultra lune before distorting the forged crankshaft threads?
Thanks for the question Mac. The mode of failure if a fastener is over torqued is normally permanent elongation, necking or fracture in the shank of the bolt. Normally about 3 threads are as strong as the shank of the fastener. You will be fine with the process you described. AG
There is a saying that once you hand tight a stud and you bottom out, one should back the bolt out 1/4 turn to reduce the block stress and to insure that the bolt is straight and not cockt a little due to the imperfections of the threads in the block. Now this last argument about the bolt being cockt a little making it not straight I have seen it my self, this will cause the contact area of the nut, not to be 100% flat, causing extra stress on one area of the studs or even bending it a little. What is your take on this? Specially on the stress on the block when the stud is against the bottom of it. The way I torque it is with special torque wrench open end (not common is USA) that allows you to hold the stud in place with the Allen wrench while you torque the nut with the open end torque wrench, so the studs is not dragged together with the nut as it encounters friction.
I don't know about line boring an engine with main studs is true or people just getting pickey I built at home a Buick 455 but at the time I did I didn't have the main studs, so I put it together with the stock bolts ,2weeks later the studs came and I installed them in the car ran for me for over 20k mi with no problems and it wasn't babied
If the clearance was enough to start or more, you would be fine , I've done similar, but always check clearance, Gm bolts were good, Grumpy used them to make 700 hp...Mmmm?
Could you do this test on a connecting Rod between the factory and ARP studs? One channel on here did this and the ARP studs tightened clearances several tenths if I remember correctly.
nc bolt into the block vs nf nut on the stud not comparable all blocks are different not only main bearings but bores (like Oldsmobile) Marketing like Edelbrock
I love your channel, but, I believe you have mistaken Isac Newton for Albert Einstein, which was Einstein hero. Maybe you ment Newton's Equal & Opisite reaction.
ARP bolts have a far more STRINGENT quality & assurance testing process over an OEM bolt. That is an advantage on its own. We had a Circle Track motor that used a windage tray and it would fracture OEM GM bolts at times (yes it was tune-up and detonation issues but, the other parts were surviving) anyhow....Substitution with ARP studs resolved that issue. Also the ARP "LS motor" fasteners are not "Torque to yeild" so if your testing and taking apart things....They give you a viable option that saves money. ARP rod bolts will give you a better fastener than any of the OEM rod bolts including the SPS "boron bolts" they used in L-88 and LS-6 Big Block Chevys.
Thanks Ej. That is a good point about the ARP bolts for LS engines being reusable. AG
Yes their not, unlike the factory bolts that are torque to yield, and supposedly not reusable, which may be another myth...I don't know.. 🤔
Agreed. I used to use Milodon and SPS bolts too. I could never understand re-using the OE fasteners on anything but the most budget build stock rebuild. Hardware is probably the cheapest investment you could make in a rebuild. I had some cheap OE rods bolts just start to loosen up and twist off torquing to stock spec when I was rolling in some bearings to freshen up an engine. The OE's are barely good enough. The rod bolt is probably the most critical fastener in an engine. A set of upgraded ARP bolts for a V8 was well under $100 a few years ago. It's a no brainer.
Oem bolt have some big advantage in street cars but only use them 2 x max
Hey AG,
Tim here, what a GREAT vid to prove certain myths......we use ARP fasteners whenever we can, just, SUPER quality.....as the HP/stress increases, we use as many ARP bolts as possible......but it PROVES, if one has a stock rebuild, OEM fasteners wud be fine.....when ur makin, lets say 150% more power than OEM specs, a good rule (i think) is to go with ARP, because, they are stronger, and will tolerate the higher power stresses, MUCH better!!......i just assembled a '69 SCJ428 short block.....now will be 464 C.I., and has a good sized camshaft (.590lift, 236° @ .050 dur hyd roller) ...all ARP stuff.....only way to have some insurance on maintaining our .0025 clrnc on our mains and rods......LOVED the vid....SMART!!...it validates my sub for SURE!!....TY sir!!
Thanks as always Tim. You are building some cool stuff. Let us know how it works out. AG
If you can get your hands on new old stock, those old materials are not the same as used today. A company like ARP sell piece of mind for most folk. If you use a set of standard torque to yield bolts, when you do the final angle sequence, just take note the differences in torque required to get to those angles.
Motor store parts are even worse
Good observation, thanks for watching and commenting Gothic. AG
I'm pretty sure when I got my bolt kit for a big block Chrysler that ARP raised the torque numbers for their Hardware. I believe that was done to achieve the required stretch on their much stronger bolts. I believe it was 10 to 20 more foot-pounds which might alter the shape of the rod cap or main bearing
Great info, thanks Thomas.AG
Great video! Another confirmation that agrees with my findings. I even find the same with studs vs factory bolts on late model LS engines. I also use ARP on the gen4 cracked rods without seeing any excessive deformation where machining might be required. Just keep checking those clearances!
Thanks Tea, a nice confirmation to my message. Thanks for contributing.AG
When you torque main cap bolts, or Rod bolts, head bolts,
"You must pull on the torque wrench with a continuous steady motion to get repetitive results. You should also apply 20-30 pounds first too each main cap bolts before going too final torque.
Thanks for your comment Brenton. AG
Excellent information as always! I personally have seen variances in main bearing clearances using studs vs. bolts. This however would be the exception rather than the rule. When there are differences they amount to approx. .0001 -.0003. Insignificant for all but the most Ultra High-performance engines. Some builders claim they've seen differences of up to .001. I never have. Also, a reminder when using studs that are hand-tightened into a block...Make certain that all threads are clean and the proper lube is used AND make certain there isnt't debris of any sort down in the pocket of stud register.
You want the stud to be bottomed against the block and not against some foreign material.
Failure to check for this has gotten engine builders into trouble. B.T.W. Nice to hear the reminder to store crankshafts upright!
Good advice, thanks as always for contributing Bill.AG
@@goldsgarage8236 Always enjoy your videos and the information, Alan. Even as a Ford engine builder and racer for over fifty years. Like you, experience rules and shared knowledge will help keep our interests alive.😉
Richard petty and other drivers of the 1960s and 1970s went 200 mph back then in race cars week after week with using stock production modified engine blocks and other parts and they used the stock fasteners of the time so I base my ideas off of what has been tried and tested by Richard petty enterprises.
Good point Bo, and aligned with my thinking. AG
Keep in mind they were using factory fasteners but they were relatively new of course not 50 odd years old and been in/out and torqued up to who knows what in that time. I still use heaps of factory fasteners that are 50 odd years old but I have any question on the bolts condition I go for new in the appropriate grade or ARP, simply to get a new fastener, not because the factory stuff was bad.
@craig8187 obviously the bolts and fasteners were new when they used them ! That is the point of my comment why would anyone with a brain use 50 yr old bolts?
ARP ULTRA Torque does contain molybdemum disulfide, it also contains tungsten disulfide
Thanks Fanta, is sure looks and feels like Moly. AG
Mistakes happen, thanks to the viewers, good man to owe up to it, good Channel, good people!!
Thanks Bill. AG
I have seen cases of where ARP studs have been used on a variety of engine components (lets concentrate on conrods and main bearing caps) where the use of an ARP stuff has changed the ‘shape and size’ of the tunnel….
I’ve also seen cases where there has been no difference in shape or size of the tunnel….
The key here is to check, check and check again….
Now in the case of a high performance engine build, you should be checking clearances and main tunnel alignment anyway.
There is a very good chance in the case of main tunnel alignment that it’s not straight anyway, regardless if using an old seasoned block or a new DART or ARROW block.
So if you have to straighten the main tunnel or resize the rods, you may as well be doing it with the ARP fasteners (why cheap out with old or standard fasteners) that are being used in the build and have them torqued with the required lube during the machining process.
Plus ARP fasteners are cheap insurance for rotating components and they are a known quantity and a far more reliable fastener than an old fasteners that you do not know ‘how it was torqued and how much it has been torqued to in its life’
Anyway that is my experience and opinion.
Good video 👍🇦🇺
Thanks Al, very good points. AG
Another way I see things, I prefer studs over bolts, because of the more even stretch applied on the shank of the fastener, with a bolt there is more a twisting stress induced than on a stud, of course it takes a lot to stress to failure a bolt in a twisting stress, but it is one issue less to think about.
I will use ARP studs if I see main bearing cap walk/fretting, that will indicate that I need to increment the torque on the fastener, since the yield strength is higher on ARP that allows me to increase the torque in 20% increment keeping an eye on the bore, and later to check after the engine is put to work and disassemble again if the main cap walk or fretting still is present, this apply to any matting surface, but this is how I do things, not saying I right I just have my process or getting there.
Thanks CJ, you have given this a lot of thought. AG
Thank you for another well done video!!! I do appreciate the detail and time you put into these videos!!!
Thanks for your comments as always 4speed. AG
Do the same for an LS rod. There’s A LOT of folks out there thinking that LS rod bores oval and spin bearings. It’ll get you clicks.
Thanks for the suggestion Shane, we will get to that. AG
Very good AL, I feel better about my 383 stroker, that I don't have to take it apart a recheck the clearances. I have that same dial bore gauge, it's made to be used with the black cover on the dial head, so when you set it down it doesn't get bumped. You just can't put it in the case that way. Thanks again for sharing this.
Thanks Cliff, mine id not come with a black cover, I have had it for a long time. glad the video saved you some unnecessary work. AG
Good Video, the factory torqued with Machines, it boils down to check, check, check,!!
Thanks Bill, I was in the GM McKinnon Industries factory in 1969. They were building 307's at the time. I was amazed to see how they torqued all the head bolts at once with machines. No computers either. AG
I don't have precision measuring tools. I rely on my machine shop. I do however have inch pound torque wrenches. I measure rotational force when assembling an engine as it goes together. Good thing as a reputable bearing manufacturer had a bad 1/2 main bearing in the box and I caught the difference in rotational force. It was not huge but would have been a big problem if not detected. Just a thought. Thanks for the educational lessons. I am learning cool stuff.
Thanks Less, your comments reinforce my point that you have to check everything. AG
You're supposed to torque to the engineered design spec based on the thread or facing surface lubricant when torquing. ARP moly grease has less friction than the traditional motor oil used. If you torque to the service manual spec with the moly lube it would overload the fastener beyond the designed clamping force. This can cause the journals to become out of round and possible excess stress on the fastener. ARP bolts generally tell you what the spec is with their grease.
Good points Vince, thanks for contributing.AG
Very Informative video...I haven't measured to verify but would think considerable changes (+0 to --25% fastener Torque) wouldn't change bearing clearance....Fastener bolts (Designed to Stretch) not likely to dimensionally Compress block main bearing Cap ID size....Largest majority of Torqued to Un-torqued dimensional change is in the bolt (Or Stud) Length (Stretch) compared to block/cap Compressed size....Again, haven't measured this to actually verify the intuitive thoughts on the bolt "Torque" myth.....
Good comments, thanks Tom.AG
Hey never used arp bolts or products but all of the other manufacturers recommend that you replace the bolts every rebuild so basically 1 time than toss them and buy new ones
But you said about the secret sauce and oil was the same after 7 uses so I think it's OK to reuse them more times by what you said..... AND I know the crank and head bolts do stretch is that right
Thanks Harold, yes, all bolts do stretch if they are torqued properly. AG
Iv used new and old bolts on street engines, all lasted for years, on new bolts iv felt the stretch, very little on used head bolts
Thanks Jim.AG
Great video, i really like your in depth explanation. Have you ever considered doing a comparison/testing on engine assembly lubes? i was thinking of everything from Detroit Diesel International compound #2 Permatex Assembly lube, , Chicago Manufacturers #2, ARP assembly lube, Schaeffer's moly, Sae 30 and any "jingle formulations(STP + Marvel Mystery Oils ATF, and 10w30) or any additional home brew. It would be great if you could get Technical Data sheets I have not had any luck on these but it would be great to know the compositions Keep up the great work very informative
Thanks for the comment. Something to think about for the future. AG
Very interesting video. Thanks
Thanks Jmc. AG
Alot of this stuff is marketing to make money these aftermarket companies make nice parts but it is not always necessary many people believe what they see on TV and the media
Thanks Bo!. AG
Great video! I have a DART 351W block with 7/16” flywheel bolts. I’m using the ARP flywheel bolts for the build. Instructions say 85 ft/lbs with the ultra lube under head and Loctite 242 on the threads. You mentioned that you have to be careful what your are clamping as well. What would you say is the max torque for an ARP flywheel bolt with their ultra lune before distorting the forged crankshaft threads?
Thanks for the question Mac. The mode of failure if a fastener is over torqued is normally permanent elongation, necking or fracture in the shank of the bolt. Normally about 3 threads are as strong as the shank of the fastener. You will be fine with the process you described. AG
There is a saying that once you hand tight a stud and you bottom out, one should back the bolt out 1/4 turn to reduce the block stress and to insure that the bolt is straight and not cockt a little due to the imperfections of the threads in the block.
Now this last argument about the bolt being cockt a little making it not straight I have seen it my self, this will cause the contact area of the nut, not to be 100% flat, causing extra stress on one area of the studs or even bending it a little.
What is your take on this?
Specially on the stress on the block when the stud is against the bottom of it.
The way I torque it is with special torque wrench open end (not common is USA) that allows you to hold the stud in place with the Allen wrench while you torque the nut with the open end torque wrench, so the studs is not dragged together with the nut as it encounters friction.
Thanks for contributing CJ. Your comments make sense. AG
Very interesting sir. Thank you!!!
And thank you for watching. AG
Very good information, thank you
Thanks Mike. AG
I don't know about line boring an engine with main studs is true or people just getting pickey I built at home a Buick 455 but at the time I did I didn't have the main studs, so I put it together with the stock bolts ,2weeks later the studs came and I installed them in the car ran for me for over 20k mi with no problems and it wasn't babied
If the clearance was enough to start or more, you would be fine , I've done similar, but always check clearance, Gm bolts were good, Grumpy used them to make 700 hp...Mmmm?
Thanks Bill. AG
Good to know! Thanks!
Thanks for the comment Bill.AG
So for a street engine the stock bolts are fine, but for a strip engine go with ARP.
Thanks for you comments Joe. AG
Could you do this test on a connecting Rod between the factory and ARP studs? One channel on here did this and the ARP studs tightened clearances several tenths if I remember correctly.
Thanks for the suggestion Robert, we will look for an opportunity to do that.AG
AG, why don't you call the ARP lube asvis, moly lube...
Because they have the exact recipe. Not all moly lubes are identical.
ARP claims it is not moly. AG
I'll re-machine for bolt to stud swap, but not bolt to bolt upgrade.
Thanks for the comment. AG
Check out another Canadian … NHRAStock’s Video on going to ARP rod bolts.
Thanks for watching Shawn.AG
nc bolt into the block vs nf nut on the stud not comparable all blocks are different not only main bearings but bores (like Oldsmobile) Marketing like Edelbrock
Good point Jm.AG
I love your channel, but, I believe you have mistaken Isac Newton for Albert Einstein, which was Einstein hero. Maybe you ment Newton's Equal & Opisite reaction.
Thanks Jose, you might be right, I will have to go back and check it out. AG