Rod Bolt Torque VS Stretch Test (Surprising Results!)
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- Опубліковано 1 вер 2021
- ARP rods bolts need to be stretched to spec, are you getting that proper stretch with just a torque wrench? I did some testing on different thread lubricants vs ARP fastener lube with a Snap on digital torque wrench vs a stretch gauge. Using ARP SBC Rod bolts (tests performed multiple times on different bolts to confirm results)
*Bolts are not being reused after testing as I don't trust them now, but none of the bolts tested stretched more than .001 from original size (ARP spec)*
NOTE: Remember to have you rods resized when ARP Bolts are installed! The clamping force is greater with arp bolts causing the bore to distort.
Rod bolt stretch Gauge
amzn.to/45y0lR7
ARP Rod bolts (SBC) 305,307 to 350
amzn.to/3XeYfDg
ARP rod bolts (SBC) 400
amzn.to/45lgb1k
ARP rod bolts (SBC) 283-327
amzn.to/3Vx3P2L
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This is a video that everyone needs to see. It's incredible how many people don't understand how a fastener works.
The old mechanics mantra when asked questions on stuff like this. "Refer to manufacturer specifications" They spend R&D time coming up with procedures for a reason.
100%! Goes to show that ARP knows what they are doing haha
You learn something new everyday, thanks for the knowledge buddy!! Great video!!
Excellent video with salient points to remember when assembling an engine. Thanks !!
I am now educated. Thanks Pat.
Fantastic video. Thank you. Yes, I have my ARP torque lube container sitting on my bench. :)
I've always use this stuff, and their head bolt sealant. Good stuff.
amazing video!! thank you for the knowledge!! 💯
Nice work. Good show.
Great video and test!
good test to see
Great video, one of my favorite topics. I will be presenting a paper on fasteners at Forsythe college on this subject, i will reference your video. Good job Cutter. AG
Appreciate that, Thanks AG
I always tighten and loosen the bolts a few times to “match the threads and area under the bolt head”. Then I’ll check the stretch with the recommended torque to see that my torque sheen h accuracy. If it matche to the stretch I’ll torque most of them unless it’s a high hp build. If my wrench torque doesn’t match the stretch I’ll use whatever torque that is that matched the stretch.
Pure gold! Now I will have to go check my 327 short block. Machinist built the bottom end. Eagle rods w/ ARP bolts. But I wonder what lube he used? Can't call him as he's sort of a jerk (and I'll never bring him business again) but it has me wondering. My buddy had him do a 327 for him and he spun a rod bearing in his motor! Might be because he revved it to 8500 RPM's tho too. I'll redo my bottom end myself in order to check it all and make sure. Great video!
That makes me feel good about using ARP lube. That stuff is not cheap man, but I use it.
Nice test, it would be interesting to compare regular moly lube to ARP lube ( which is moly based )
Good stuff thanks.
I use ARP rod bolts I use the lube and a stretch gage that is only way I do it your video shows it perfectly
Great video, as with most things in life RTFI
Great video
I always use ARP and follow directions
That was very interesting. Does that mean all bolts (engine or non-engine applications) are under-torqued if you just use non-ARP lube and a torque wrench?
Thanks for taking the time to make these videos, Pat.
Great question! So all fasteners have a torque spec that's calculated from size, material, grade ect.. The torque spec could be a "dry" or "oiled" spec and in the case of engine fasteners most bolts are oiled. The torque is directly affected by the friction on the bolt..so using oil on a fastener that should be torqued dry you'll end up with a over torqued bolt and using no oil on a fastener that should have oil you end up with a under torqued bolt.
ARP torque specs are calculated with their lube so thats what should be used.
All other OE engine bolts (mostly) are calculated with oiled threads just regular oil should be used on those. *You could actually end up over torqued using arp lube on non arp bolts*
@@cuttersperformance That makes sense. Thanks for the reply, Pat.
Just torqued up my arp bolts and I'm wondering if I used enough.
I read once years ago that if you don't have the stretch gauge, you are supposed to torque the bolts to spec , 3 times and then they are good to go. I never used the ARP lube, but I'm going to for now on,lol.
To be honest even with the stretch gauge I torque them 3 times haha. I gotta put my three check marks in my engine log book lol
I did pretty much did the same thing in 1992, Dry, 30W and ARP lube on 3/8 rod bolt. Got pretty much the same results, first 2 came up well short of target stretch, with the ARP lube at 50# it was .006 but I just couldn't leave it be, at 55# they POP! the break is so clean you can hold the pieces together in your finger and run the nut right through the break like it wasn`t there. I broke two more and they both popped at 55# that impressed me all 3 broke at exactly 55#. very consistent.
Well, then I've gotta ask the question... That's only a 5 lbs difference, and you can't tell me at speed (rpm), that those bolts aren't getting pulled on way, way more than 5 lbs!!! NOt sure I'd ever trust that!!!
@@Anarchy-Is-Liberty - Was just about to say. I guess he doesnt have an answer, lol.
@@Anarchy-Is-Liberty heat increases metals maleability. When metal gets hot it expands. So when everything heats up it lessens the stretch on the bolt. 🤙
I conducted almost this exact experiment one friday evening out of pure curiosity but I also wanted to see what the arp bolt with arp lube torqued to the correct ft lb and stretch did to an otherwise unaltered rod. I tested on 3 different rods 2 oem rods and 1 eagle rod and was blown away at what I was seeing, the 2 oem rods were 1 from a traditional sbc and 1 from a bbc the 3rd being an eagle rod for an lq9 and 1 thing all 3 rods shared in common was they were all perfectly round on the big end to start but after torqued with arp bolts and lube none of the rods were perfectly round anymore 2 of the rods returned to round after removing the arp bolts but the bbc rod center line was so distorted and stayed that way it wasn't even usable anymore ( no kidding I hung it on the wall to use as a story piece after that ) the eagle lq9 rod and sbc rod were just fine but were spares so I wasn't concerned with hurting them. The conclusion I came to was I will never install arp rod or main bolts again without getting the rods and mains at minimum checked and resized if need be with the arp bolt. I will admit I have installed many ARP Rod bolts without getting the rods resized and have not had any discernible issue with anything flying apart however I have noticed after inspecting bearings on tear Downs that I have done this with the bearings have odd wear patterns consistent with the rod not being round yet it was before it was assembled anyhow Great video buddy just wanted to throw in my 2 cents I hope more people see this!
This! Have seen the same thing.
So the fact they came with instructions but yet u think u knew better? Lazy is what u are
I do not use a torque wrench. I place an extra long box end wrench over the nut and then the stretch gauge. I can watch the needle move as I pull on the wench.
Always follow manufacturers instructions they were researched for a reason
100%
Love ARP bolts. They are not cheap but do offer excellent value for money. Locally it costs $100 to resize rods, $25 to check for straightness, and the bolts cost $80. So that's $215. I can get forged Scat rods for $320. Now if you got a local guy that can gets you reconditioned and resized rods for around $150 plus your stockers go grab it and growl.
Hi, How can I tell if my ARP rod bolts are stretched beyond there usefulness? Is there a spec for there length? See I had a engine shop install my rod bolts and the fing things where real tight when I got them back, So I thinking there stuffed. Been stretched too far! Great Video BTW. Thanks
Typically a pre install measurement is needed using a micrometer or rod bolt gauge. Arp bolts a super consistent so they might have the exact new measurement info or if you know the part# I can probably measure a new set that I have and you can compare to yours.
Typically a 25 to 30% over torque will stretch them pass spec (Depending)
Nice !!! 😀
It was very helpful! Thank you. Great video! Let me ask you one question. I will be installing eagle rods in the near future. I don't have a stretch gauge. The description says 43ftlbs. When installing, do you tighten to 43ftlbs from the beginning and finish? Or as many people say, first tighten to 43ftlbs, loosen once, tighten again to 43ftlbs, loosen again, and finally (3rd time) finish to 43ftlbs Is it? I'm worried that the bolt will stretch if I tighten it all three times to 43ftlbs.
Im assuming the eagle rods have arp bolts?
You can tighten in stages but the final torque should add atleast 10 ftlbs. For example of you snug the bolts then torque them to 15 ft lbs, 30 ftlbs then to the final 43 ftlbs.
Technically the bolts can be torqued to 43 ftlbs over and over again and then return to the original size when loosened. The only time they will stretch is if they are over torque and stretched past their yeild.
Be sure to use the proper arp lube on the threads as well at the head of the fasteners where it contacts the rod to get proper torque/stretch
@@cuttersperformance
Thank you. You're kind. I look forward to your video updates.
This is my first time rebuilding an engine. I replaced my main bearing and my crankshaft turns pretty good by hand but after putting new STD rod bearings on and just snugging down the connecting rod bolts to 15 ft lb.
My crankshaft won't budge at all unless I loosen the nuts back up. Which I'm guessing that's why they can't be reused. Since there stretched out from having to be TTY. Now is that the case. Because So far, I haven't found anything that supports my theory.
Please let me know ASAP
BTW, I really appreciate you making the time to make this video for those who are looking for answers
Did you make sure the chamfer on the rods is the correct way on the crank?
I feel there needs to be the same test run on factory studs to see the difference there as well
Unless you have stretch specifications for the factory fastener, it would be meaningless.
one thing that you need to be mentioned, is that the you need to swap the rod bolts before you have the rods machined/reconditioned. if swap the bolts after the rods have been reconditioned the inside diameter of the rod will change, this an cause the bearing to be to tight on oil clearance. ARP bolt clamp extremely well, but you have to know what your doing or it could really screw some stuff up.
Sorry to say, that is a myth. It is a trick machine shops use as a ploy to sell another process, that is 99.9% of the time, NOT needed, but SOUNDS like it is. If it needed it with new bolts, odds are it needed with the old. Same holds true for anytime you swap from a bolt to a stud. All this stuff is checked regardless, but is NOT mandatory to rehone a rod or align hone a block. Ask me how I know.
Thanks for pointing that out! I know i recored a bit about that but i must have left it out if the video by accident.
Alot of machine shops prefer if you send the bolts with the rods as they want to grind the caps, install the ARP bolts and then resize the rods.
I tied boltstrech on L19 bolts. Was way past torque value and gave up on stretching em. Was afraid to pull threads from H beam rods. Torqued em to value given with bolts.
Did you use the arp lube on the bolts? Its quite abit more torque to get to the proper stretch without it
The l19s have a high torque value to begin with, how much past did you go?
@@cuttersperformance yes I used the arp lube. Don't remember amount of torque over called for value. Local shop that built competition engines for decades used 30 weight oil and torqued to torque specs.
Is this test is it for high performance engines only? Or does this test apply also apply for stock engines with no alterations?
Any time using ARP bolts
Are you putting the line on just the nut face, or liberally all over the threads?
I typically use Royal Purple assembly lube, comp cams or Permatex....whatever is on hand.
Threads and nut face (flat surface). Nothing I've tried works like the arp lube, I see why thats the only thing the recommend on their fasteners
Yea apparently. I’m a small scale AMSOIL dealer now, so I’d be interested to see how it performs. I haven’t needed any lube since I’ve been doing it. Now I’m curious lol.
You have any videos of how to swap rod bolts at home? Or what to do if you get the rod caps mixed up?
Wow, that ARP lube is really slippery going on....Ain't also very slippery staying on?
Answers my dumb question about gauge reading if 5 was 0.050
wonder if one can use ARP lube on non ARP fasteners? Perhaps they would over torque them?
Any fastener with a torque spec calculated with dry or oiled threads will be over torqued when using ARP lube
Very intended
This is comforting to know, butt have you ever ran the engine through a few heat cycles then recheck them? Its a bunch of work but not more than trying to save an engine. On a engine that is really making big HP I recheck them along with the main studs. You will be surprised with the results.
The only ones I have rechecked are head bolts. I have never had and issue but im not building alot of super high HP stuff. Most stuff i do is 400 to 500 hp with some boosted stuff in the 600 to 750 hp range
Do you find they need to be retorqued?
@@cuttersperformance I've never had main/rod bolts need touched after break in. Head bolts on the other hand, almost always take a little more.
@@cuttersperformance short answer, yes the main studs are less prone to stretch but the rods lose 2 to 3 lbs of torque. I never reuse critical studs or bolts. Head studs really need re torque. I found this by accident on an engine that had an issue, don't remember what, low oil pressure? When I opened it up I thought what the h€ll and checked the main studs and rod bolts, all arp. Yep I dyno test, off the dyno the cooled engine gets checked every time now. I have found a few that are spot on.
I would always let the head rest at least 30 min before putting on my final torque. There was always significant variance in how many degrees it would turn. If the degrees of turn was different at 45, I'd throw the bolt away. My assumption was that the gasket was getting compressed and moving under the extreme force. This was always done with moly lube.
Ex 25, 45, wait 30 min 65 done.
Multible?
Well I wish I would have watched this video sooner. About 3hrs ago I torqued some connecting rod bolts with 10w30
Well crap man! If the pans still off its not too late haha
@@cuttersperformance yeah, its off and the motor is still on the stand. Do you use the arp lube on the main cap bolts too? also, do you know where to find torque specs for the arp bolts, im working on a BBC.
@@andy347495 any ARP bolt use ARP lube. Stock bolts use engine oil.
There should be a spec sheet included with the bolts
@@cuttersperformance the machine shop supplied the bolts when they resized the rods. They are closed until Tuesday. I was hoping to find info online so I can finish it this weekend. I'll do some more searching. Thanks for your help and the videos.
You need to do a video explaining how if you’re running a bolt or stud with a washer you only put lube between the washer and the head of the bolt or between the washer and the nut and not on both sides of the washer like some people think you should
Ive actually done my own testing on this and wasn'tsure if anyone else wondered about it. Again the key is using the ARP lube, but what I found is that obviously you want to cut down the friction between head of the bolt and the washer and putting lube between those two is key (also on the threads) Adding more lube to the bottom of the washer had little to no effect on the bolt stretch but did not show any negative effects that I found
@@cuttersperformance I actually sand the side of the washer that doesn’t contact the underside of the bolt head/nut with 80 grit to make sure the washer doesn’t rotate. See that on in an email that ARP sent out years ago, said to do that if the machine finish where the washer sets is too smooth.
@@sethmiller9442 Yeah ive seen that before too, never actually tried it though
Grease on both sides acts as a bearing
Thats quite a difference. Almost looks like the friction goes way up after 45 ft/lbs? Have they engineered it so that youre less likely to overstretch?
Whats your view on grinding/polishing the rods? Is it necessary and can one do it without shotpeening them afterwards?
I'm sure they have a error factor figured in to the torque spec becuase I find to get the optimum stretch its takes a few ft/lbs more. It usually ends up being 47 to 48 ft lbs on these style bolts.
So grinding /polishing or shot peening rods, I get asked this every once in awhile.
Here's my thoughts on this: the process of grinding oe forged rods to take the edge off them to reduce the risk of cracks is something that helps (i have no proof though) but it doesn't really make the rod physically stronger. To do it right you need to magnaflux the rods, gring them (properly), balanced, shot peened or polish then resized.
Instead of doing all this you might aswell get yourself a set of aftermarket I beam rods or even H beams.
To me it just seems like alot of money and work for a part that maybe you shouldn't be using at the power level your are trying to achieve
I had some big block chevy ARP rod bolts. Said to stretch them .0065 to .0067. I had to torque them 62ft lbs. With my torque wrench to get them there with this exact lube, arp said 50ft ft lbs which was not rite. D
So explain to me why I had to take them to 62 ft lbs instead of 50?
I find it using takes a few more ftlbs to hit the correct stretch but not that much.
Did you put ARP fastener lube on the threads and the head of the bolt where it contacts the cap?
Is your torque wrench calibrated? (Probably the most common issue)
@@cuttersperformance yes i put that lube on the threads and under the bolt head. Torqued them several times, took 62 ft lbs. To get the recommended. 0065 stretch they they wanted. 50 ft lbs. Was no where close.
@@jessesyfie7244 scary
I'd be willing to bet most machine shops have a box filled with those little packets of arp grease. The customers have no idea their supposed to be using it. Nobody has ever handed me one of those packages when I pick up my resized rods with new arp bolts.
If the machine shop resized them the lube should already be on the bolt threads
I'M CONFUSED......so after you verify this do you just assemble the engine using the lb-ft spec or do you assemble with the lb-ft spec and then wrangle the stretch guage in there to verify also???????
If you dont have a stretch gauge (which is recommended by ARP) then use a good torque wrench. Be sure to use lots of the proper ARP lube (on threads and head contact area) and torque to their provided spec
@@cuttersperformance thanks for the reply. I have no problem buying the stretch gauge, just curious if I am supposed to use that during actual engine assembly or if you just use it to find the lb-ft that it gets you that stretch before you assemble?
@yurimodin if your working on a SBC/BBC you can fit it no problem. If you cant fit the gauge then ya you can use it to figure out the perfect torque spec with your torque wrench out of the engine
All depends on how everything was machined on the procedure you take. If the machinest didn't use a stretch gauge I wouldn't either. Duplicating the process of when everything was machined is what you actually want.
I totally agree, but at the same time, to use the fastener properly as ARP intended, it seems that a stretch gauge it really the best way to go. The ARP bolt lube on the threads and head is also very important for consistency
I have found that you have to have some formula,... using both torque and stretch for the best results,... materials aren't as consistent as we would like to believe,.... I still pay more attention to torque,... if I have to go a couple of ft. lbs. over,... to get close to the stretch,... I do,... but thats about it,.... fastener torque,... is where the tension accures,... and thats what you want,... to be consistent throughout the motor,... for reasons of heat and cooling,... where things can somtimes change.........
I also use the stretch to figure out the torque.
Its really about the strech, not the torque. Technically you dont even need a torque wrench for rod bolts if you have a stretch gauge but its easier.
A stretch gauge removes outside factors like thread resistance and really tell's you what you need to know
Thanks for checking out my video
Cheer!
I think the lesson is Use the ARP Assembly Lube so you don’t have to buy a stretch gauge!
And a good torque wrench!
@@cuttersperformance So true! My ACDelco came with a test sheet, less than 1% off at all test points! I was impressed…
I have to ask this, as you are obviously knowledgeable enough to know, yet a small enough channel to actually respond to questions....
TOPIC: *LS OEM Powder-Forged Cracked Cap Rods (Gen4 specifically) and Rod Bolts.*
Would you recommend staying away from ARP (either 8740 or 2000) OEM replacement 7/16 Rod Bolts ?
Would it be better to simply use new GM OEM replacement bolts (8720-ish grade I believe) due to the cracked cap post-forging design ?
While I understand that these rods CAN NOT be resized due to the cracked mating surfaces of the big end actually being the ONLY real alignment mechanism, would you run the risk of distorting the big ends with aftermarket fasteners (like the ARP's) that provided a clamping force that the rods were not designed for ? OR do you think that it would be OK ? With the Gen4 rods being pretty hefty, the weak point on the surface anyway, would seem to be the OEM Rod bolts. Thanks in advance....
Ok so I've been down this road before lol
So first off LS rods can be resized but not the traditional way of grinding the caps. They are done by opening up the bore and using a .002 oversize OD bearing.
But the biggest question is do you need it go ARP bolts? I've actually talked to Richard Holdner and a few other abouts this as I always like to go ARP rods bolts on everything. He has noticed that unlike alot of other style rod bolts that stretch and cause rod failure, the LS rods will often bend or break without any damage or issues to the rod bolts.
But that being said....alot of guys pushing big power with LS stuff will just opening up the ring gaps and add ARP rods bolts (thats it)
So unless you plan on making big power, your rod bores are good then stock rods bolts should be just fine
@@cuttersperformance I've seen the abuse that a standard Gen4 Rod can take with proper tuning and it's impressive. Included in gen4 was GM's strongest in-house fab'd Steel Rod - The LSA Rod. Stronger and beafier than the LS3 Rod (and look what guys do on a stock bottom end LS3), More meat on the big end, especially around the bolts and thicker neck, all with the tapered and trussed small end. From what I have seen, the LSA style of Rod has been carried over to Gen 5 and is the standard LT-1, L86 and even LT-4 Rod as well as the new Heavy Duty 6.6L LT8 truck motor's Rod. For some reason, a set of these 6.098 rods can be picked up for cheap, like $100-$150 USD. Now if any Rods deserved consideration for a Rod Bolt upgrade, it would be these. Most guys have bought into the hype and are dumping an already strong LSA/GenV bottom end for aftermarket, when clearly these Rods are more than decent. I think it's more than safe to build something using these Rods specifically, but as I said before, the ROD BOLTS clearly look to be the weak link, even though they are 7/16. $150 for Rods, $100 for ARP Bolts and for $250, I don't think there is anything better for 700+ HP or more in a daily driver. What do you think ?
I'd say your correct in saying that. The powered rods are strong, even the vortec 350 pm rods I've had good luck with (arp fasteners) and have for sure pushed the limits of those with good luck (knock on wood haha)
The keys things are a good tune and not too much rpm. I personally think ARP bolts are always a good idea but not always necessary with LS Rods.
I have a L33 sitting in my shop right now that I will be reusing the rods and adding ARP bolts + resize.
You can't get a better rod for the money
I think you are right in that those rods can handle a lot of power but when it comes to high horsepower high rpm engines, engine builders don't want to take a chance on powdered metal. If you've got a bunch of money in a race engine a forged metal rod is much better insurance. Afterall a rod failure is a whole engine and block failure usually.
@@MikeSmith-px7ec I wish there was more info and practical 'Rod Grading' (for boosted applications) starting with a $300 Scat I-Beam and ending on the higher end with something like a set of $1500 Weisco BoostLines. The Mid-Range is a scary place to shop, as BS and marketing can go a long way and it's not as simple as saying "just get eagle H-Beams" if you want cheap but don't want to run OEM Rods.
The arp rod bolts cost is worth it but having the rods resized and everything idk if its worth it, by the time you buy the bolts and pay the machine shop you got $300+ in your stock rods when you can just go buy some aftermarket scat or eagle rods lol would be nice if having the rods resized wasn't needed
That's a very valid point, machine shop costs kinda push you into the aftermarket rod territory.
As long as the new rods are decent and don't need any resizing
wish you would have used moly lube. They say its equal to arp lube
and thanks. great job buddy!
The lube comes with the hw just use it.
Exactly!
The devil is in the details... The maximum yield strength is your maximum clamp force.
ARP might have a higher maximum yield strength but the set yield strength is locked in at your .00526 (etc)...
What maters is how much "crushing":takes place at the piston arm's two halves, that they are stable at your high rpms and that vibration does not back your bolt assembly "out/lose"...
I will do a test showing clamp force created and this will relate to more "crushing" and if it's done in the yielding range of the bolt, it will give more resistance to vibration (what matters is the assembly not get loose during your high rpms and vibration)...
AA Ha
Buy their bolts use their grease simple
Arp are the 💩 But..stock are not Tork to yield. They are Tork to angel. You can't reuse them.of course they've been stretched. So skip the angel part. Do your steps, Final 50/52 ish ft lb gen 4 rods will go Kaplui before those bolts will. So unless you're building a dedicated race car 20lb boost and up. Spend your money on Forged pistons. Detonation is the killer. Weather from cheap gas, tune/ timing, or low rpm romping. 006.5 007.5 per inch top ring 002. Bigger for second for boost. Let her eat 👍🤞
You do know WHY all of a sudden "stretching" a bolt is so popular now, don't you. Sells more gauges... and more importantly, it removes the the torque wrench inaccuracy factor from builder to builder. Giving a static length to achieve doesn't matter what the torque wrench says. So when a bolt brakes, they can't be held responsible due to everyone's uncalibrated torque wrenches. They sure as hell didn't change the way the bolt was made lol.
In a nutshell, a good builder makes sure his torque wrench is calibrated, and doesn't have a problem when torquing rod bolts. Ever.
I personally think its the safer way to go. It takes out any outside factors that affect the overall torque of the bolt (torque wrench calibration, friction, and even torqueing technique). But like I said in the video and I agree with you, if you follow the instructions and have a good torque wrench then you'll have no issues
@@cuttersperformance Not telling anyone what to do, but as a Race Engine builder for many years, you tend to see trends. Always a reason why they come up with this stuff. It's usually to sell more stuff. What I will say is, in all these years, I never had a rod bolt fail, brake, lock up, or any issue, from just torquing it correctly. What I don't agree with, is how people fall for trends and think it's the best way. Throwing logic and experience out the window. I see why they did it though, from a business standpoint.
Nice video.. thank you.. USA 🇺🇸 USA 🇺🇸 USA 🇺🇸.. NO CHINA CRAP PLZ
I feel sorry for who ever wins that build. Take those and toss them in the trash.
Haha those are not being put in use. 😅 I'm abit offended that you would think that lol
Also in the description;
**Bolts are not being reused after testing as I don't trust them now, but none of the bolts tested stretched more than .001 from original size (ARP spec)**
Really? Why would think that?
Please, in future videos stop moving your hand around…