Chinarello V Pinarello - Fake or Real, Which is better?
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- The much anticipated Chinarello video, we compare a fake Pinarello copy to a genuine Pinarello Dogma 65.1Think 2.
The answers will surprise you!
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The Chinarello office wants to thank you for their 1st QA/QC inspection.
This was awesome to finally see this!
I guess after the video they will reinforce the headset and put the angle of the front cable insert right. :D))))
Ive had top of the line bikes inthe past Colnago BMC Basso Merlin and more, quite a few before 2010, after 30 years of biking i meet the Aliexpress and so far I have owned dogma think2, F8, F10 and im awaiting on an F12 to arrive not one problem with any of them and I tell you BEST BIKEs I HAVE EVER HAD
Chinarellos as you call them. To me best bike
At a fraction of the cost
My God take the microphone aeay from this what a terrible narrative worst ever😩
Hello, they all made in China or Taiwan 90% of all carbon bikes
You say in your closing thoughts that Chinese unknowns need to looked at on a case by case basis, but between yourself and Hambini it seems this rings true with fully known brands equally. Those faults on the genuine article are unacceptable for the prices Pinarello demand. When the pros get them for free they can be as they are, but when someone is forking out £5K for the frameset alone that's atrocious. Seems like as a consumer it's a case of working out what's worse diarrhoea or constipation, when both leave you with a sore arse.
John Mac so true. Every last Pinarello frame should have been scanned prior to being sold for the prices they charge. Maybe more vids will help convince brands that people don’t want to pay gold for ‘shite’ as Hambini would call them.
Randall Smith the 5k frame kosts the bikeshop 3k from a distributor
the 3k frame kosts the distributor 2k from pinarello
the 2k frame kosts pinarello 1k from asian company
if you compare a 600$ chinarello to a 1k pinarello than the diference is ok
if you wan't craftmanship buy a feska or allied! pinarello is for bling and italian passion
@@ianiscaratti4924 from my experience in the retail sector selling outdoor goods, every person in the chain doubles their money. From manufacturer - distributor - point of sale. This isn't always the case but it often is. When I did a lot of climbing my ropes were typically £2.50 a metre retail. When you saw what we paid at trade to get them in, then worked back to how much it would cost a manufacturer making it in kilometres at a time they were pennies. So this super critical piece of kit which was expensive to the consumer wasn't really expensive.
On this Pinarello side of things like the chap above says for top end frames you should almost be given a full ultrasound of the frame as part of the QC. Almost like a human x-ray showing it's perfect because for a 5k frame nothing else is acceptable. I highly doubt the person the have layering up the frames for the top end frames is on 5x the wage of someone layering up a basic frame so the cost isn't obscenely more expensive. If anything the cheaper frames are just likely the older model. I'm probably well off the mark but I don't buy into all the marketing I buy the best I can justify and even then hunt like a demon for a better price.
@@ianiscaratti4924 I assume the pinarello cost them what, $100? Probably around that.
Ianis Caratti well if you’re talking about Pinarello’s top framesets, they may be getting the raw material from an Asian company (just like every other carbon frame maker does), but they are crafted in Italy and SHOULD be held to much higher quality standards. In reality, maybe they are not. I’m not sure.
Playback 1.5x thank me later. Who else is watching this about to buy a Chinarello frame
me because a saw a pinarello with di2 ultegra for like 1200$. tempted
The problem with fakes, as you say, is accountability. They don't care if the frame fails, because it's not their name written on it. Other small Chinese brands or whatever, it's their name on their downtube if it cracks - they have something to lose. So, I agree; I can't recommend buying a fake frame.
You've had a few though :-)
@@glennoc8585 Yup! Wouldn't recommend it though. You're rolling the dice. I was lucky, mine were all fine. But, I can't recommend it.
@@ChinaCycling I ride Chinese carbon but not the fakes. In Saying that unless you buy a frame have it scanned or better cut up to see what's up you never know. Even the smaller Chinese frame brands are bought from.one of the few big factories so if there is a class action.they just fold.up and start as a new name. In Taiwan the law is properly administered and you could go straight to the office HQ with say Giant or Factor. Warranty on small brand Chinese frames forget it there is no return to base outside of China.
I had a super six evo, frame was essentially warped laterally so dropouts were totally uneven and consequently I got brake rub with 23mm as the carbon drop outs wore out over time. I had the original receipt, ppwk, and brought it back to the original dealer and Cannondale just told me to run a smaller tire, warranty and support only as good as the brand backing them. Plenty of scummy big brands.
As a 35 year cyclist who had had them all. Stop drinking cool aid. Pinarello makes garbage frames and has done so since the early ‘90s. See how much they care when u contact them for a warranty claim. Time of France is the only real maker of proper frames. Enjoy your over priced POS. LOL.
If you are willing to pay a little more I guess the Chinese bike manufacturers can make it even better than the original. With the Chinese frame, you get what you paid for but with the original you still get crap even if you paid premium.
😢
The most anticipated bike release video of 2020 wasn't some puff piece about X big brand's new X model being X percent more stiff/lighter/compliant, it was a rotary tool Chinarello showdown...
Thank you. Very educational and to the point. I was thinking that we might never see this comparison as we might realise that fake is not that much different and you might have genuine companies chasing you or forbidding you to show it as it would affect their sales and promote fakes. Good I was corrected and you pointed to us what danger/risks are there. On another note you also showed us the quality of the real one that doesn’t match the price. That being said I bought real pinarello yesterday so I better make sure to register my frame just in case... Once again I appreciate the effort and honesty and I will look forward for more of your technical lessons and comparisons. Hope the genuine companies take notes. Thanks and Regards.
Great video Raoul. 👍🏼
I thinks its more like 10% of the price, 90%-95% of the quality - in this case.
can you do it in another china frame like seraph, twitter, vcye, winspace, alves and any other smaller china brand, i hope they are better than the fake one.
Phrase of the century: "Personally, I don't ride a bike I have not scanned" 🥶🥶🥶🥶🥶🥶
@ 37:14
Daylight robbery considering the cost of the genuine article. So basically it’s a lottery based on quality
a seat post on the pinarello is bound to be creaky.
I'm staggered by how poor that seat tube on the real one looked, not to mention other areas. The fake actually WON a few points over the real one. Completely unacceptable. It really is just a lottery with carbon frames it seems.
The Pinarello does not come off too well here. Great video. Thank you!
You have to take into account that the bike is 8 YEARS OLD. As Raoul mentioned in one of his videos, the quality of carbon frames has been significantly increasing over the last few years. Yes it's not great, but even 8 years ago they did the important bits right. Headtube is one of the most important parts of the bike.
@@PoltergeistWorks Please, CFRP bike zealots keep repeating this old and tired argument for more than 10 years (since I have argued the point that CFRP is dangerous material to make bikes out of) when the quality of CFRP bikes are shown to be wanting. The problem is that Monocoque CFRP bike mass production manufacturing- no matter how good it is, there are always multiple points for failure to occur. As long as the bike manufacturers do no use the same standards (because it would raise the cost of manufacturing) as the Aviation Industry does with composites, the material is not going a safe material to make bike frames out of. And Even if the bicycle industry did adhere to the same standards as the aviation companies do, the mode of failure of CFRP (catastrophic) still makes it unsafe material to use for bike frames! It is stubborn idiots that keep their heads in the sand wishing that this fact goes away to justify their expensive CFRP bikes or these people are connected to the bike industry in some way.
@@triode1212 Do you ride a carbon fork?
@@glennoc8585 i ride fox 36 xd but come on he has a point.
@@_systemd is your frame CF?.guys punish c.f. enduro.bikes everyday.and I gear of very little.in.the way of failures. Alloy a heavier option and titanium or cromo full say frames are crazy heavy for xc or endure.
is anyone actually surprised?!
Surprised you’re still pretending your name is Sachin Hambini and not Sanjeev Varah? Yes
at what? the questionable pinarello or the decent chinarello? both seem to be a coin flip and in reality where the flaws are located are a coin flip to.
love ur channel btw
OMFG they both look HORRIBLE around the BB. Unbelieveable!!
Time vxrs 2005 hand made look soo clean
I think even the real one looks quite unimpressive. So much junk left in there. And in some areas indeed the fake looks moulded cleaner. The copy is of course dangerous and i wouldnt recommend one.
Yeah I wouldn't buy either
Is it just me or the China looks like a better mold??? Especially the seat post!! Definitely not paying $6500 for poor Pina craftsmanship!
Also look how much straight and perfectly, constant structutal thickness there is on the china!
It's all our (byers) fault. As long as we pay gold for shite, the quality control will be a joke
Raoul can.you do a fork comparison as that's very much as important and for me personally more so. Good vid review.
I have the forks for both so can do, when I can fit it in.
Chinarello: Thanks! We will improve headtube structure and amend cable hole position XD
I assume that Chinarello Inc. will send the new upgraded frame for a follow-up inspection video for free! :D))))
And ready to take my money!!!!
The person that had the fake was very lucky to get a little bit of warning of the failure. That bike could have easily just exploded at 80kph on the descent. As you said you really are risking your life, whether the bike is real or fake you’re entrusting your well-being to it. This video makes me even more excited to get my classic Raleigh made from Reynolds 531c built up!
Anybody who takes the risk of descending at 80kph on a 7kg something bicycle with skinny little tires and wearing just lycra is an utter idiot looking for death or serious injuries. For themselves and quite possibly injuring others on the road. Those who get paid a lot of money for doing it have their bikes thoroughly checked for manufacturing defects. Everyone else is on a suicidal mission.
@@82vitt Finally, there is one sensible mind in the universe that has addressed this point appropriately. :)
The scary part is - they didn't understand the thickness of that section was for strength on the original, and just filled it with foam to save a few cents ...
I give 5/10.to chinarello and 5/10.to Pinarello here. My 3 yr old well.used non branded Chinese frame is going strong. I'm.yet to see aa good tolerance on the headset bearing seats. I've had to epoxy bearing in with a release to remove play. Giant,, look,or Time then colnago are still.the go-to for.QC. if you're cashed up.an artisan but frame like a bauhm or Bastion etc.
Can I ask you How did u solve the headset bearing seats? Im having the same problem right now, The upper seat is Slightly oversized and the bearing drops loose in the headset
At last! 👍 Thanks! BTW, I'm sure the Chinarello manufactures will be honing their craft to be even more deceptive
The newer Chinarellos would be of higher standard now but the point of knock offs doesn't give them a pass.
China Thanks you for wasting your money! Maybe now you’ll realize that 99.7% of modern bike frames regardless of brands are made in a Chinese Factory.
Thanks form sharing this amazing work. Many Argentine championships have been won in chinarellos!!!
Super interesting. Was pulling for the Chinarello but then saw the headset cup in the head tube and said "nah. . .that's not gonna work."
Thanks for your video, it was very informative, I purchased a 651 Think 2 Chinarello through Cycling Yong back in 2014 and have never had an issue with it, mind you I weigh 66 kgs, so not likely to have stressed the frame too much, I run DI2 Ultegra with C24 wheels, so from a cost point of view versus safety and reliability, I'm quite happy with the bike, but I would preface this by saying I'm only a 5000km a year rider, so the bike hasn't been put through a searching test, but I appreciate your observations and potential structural failures.
It’s a sample size of 1. If you cut open 10 of each, you might find the fake to have less critical flaws. Both are made by hand with high potential for mistakes.
Usually, the sample size of 1 is what people buy. I have full reduncancy on several items I own, but I can't do that with a bike frame due to cost. At sample = 1 = $value, seems that it's just such a lottery. A lottery in which especially Raoul and Hambini etc are bringing the odds down in *our* favours.
yup not all genuine pinarello has the same x\exact look at the inside
Glad I got to see this video before Pinarello has it pulled, lmao. Excellent work!
Man, all these videos really make me doubt ever buying a carbon bike with full carbon forks.....
So what's a really good lightweight commonly available alloy frame that is affordable, not a superbike priced custom build? Cannondale CAAD?
Caad 10
I had one of these Chinarellos...loved the frame.... and had 5 other friends race a whole season - all went well. My SL2 was horrible. I have had 4 Chinarellos - my F8 was the favorite... F12 on the way.... I hope the owner sends this video to the seller...
Hello, i m looking to buy a f12 from aliexpress. Are you happy with yours? Do you have any recommendations? Greets Aron.
His videos are absolutely brilliant. You can learn so much. I’d love to see his take on Time frames which IMO are the high water mark of carbon fiber construction.
Thanks for the kind words. FYI I have a Time Skylon frame already cut up for an upcoming review.
Raoul, thanks for this great video.
Fascinating story you tell.
Aluminum frames almost always have a gusset welded at the bottom of head tube/down tube junction.
The genuine Pinarello was a carbon fiber counterpart of that gusset. The fake Pinarello does not! A failure waiting to happen, as you so correctly state.
Best regards, stevesocal40
Interesting, as an owner of a Chinarello dogma f12! I feel more validated for not buying it now
Me too. Mine rolls great we no issues since 15tkm
You mean the real one?
Chinarello Dogmane F21, my dream bike
Both frames display bad quality and the price difference is not justifiable. You could get seriously hurt with both frames.
same with many other "top" brands
Perhaps that the only way to create the bike or of carbon. Is there a video of another top tier bike? How does that one compare?
@@Ozem_Israel just watch hambini
@@danjo1967 thanks for that channel, seems informative so far.
Funny thing is, assuming both pinarello and chinarello manufacturers have seen this video, who do you think will be more likely to fix their product's weakness?
The fakers sadly
Unfortunately Martin Wright you’re probably correct
101% the Chinese, because they care for your opinion and needs, where the ROYAL class (orig. Pina) doesn't give a shit about you!
Me personally after watching this video, not paying for genuine carbon frame!
Before he said which one was real , I actually thought the real one was the fake. Wow, what an eye opener. For the price that you pay for the real one, you would think it would be flawless.
My Cannondale super 6 had a lifetime guarantee, yet when my bottom bracket lost its integrity, they would NOT entertain replacing it. WHY!; How long is a lifetime guarantee? Im now inclined to buy Chinese direct.
The Chinarrello would make a good Zwift bike
😢
@RollinRat It wasn't the bearings, it was the frame surrounding the bottom bracket.
Steel/Titanium for life
35:30 I’d share your bias against counterfeits. But, time and again, these video’s point out that *at best* there is no discernable difference between the big brands and the Chinarello’s of this world. Imo, that should be the point of this video; why pay 5k when all the QC budget ends up being spent on marketing.
When choosing between two evils, i would like to be in it for the least amount of money. My takeaway is, i’ll buy Chinese, just not a blatant copy.
...I'll buy steel or aluminum. F that carbon crap.
@@theadventurebiker Steel frame/fork with carbon seatpost/handlebar (or just get titanium for the same cost) will have all the compliance of a carbon bike and none of the weaknesses.
@@cjohnson3836 Exactly. 👍
@@cjohnson3836 Actually I'm staying away from carbon posts and bars as well. That shit's too unreliable and unpredictable. And F'n dangerous. This video shows what happened to a carbon bar on our tandem:
ua-cam.com/video/-V5D9zHNx_A/v-deo.html
Granted it was a cheap Chinacarbon bar but as Raoul points out in his video with carbon you really don't know what you're getting and we can't really know if a bar from a name brand would be a whole lot different or better. I only buy aluminum posts and bars from now on. In all my years of riding I never once had an issue with an aluminium post or bar.
Thanks for the in-depth review!
I'd say based on this video there isn't really that much of an improvement over a real Pinarello compared to a Chinarello. Kind of makes one wonder what one is paying for when they get a real Pinarello.
Looking forward to checking this out. Thx.
Thanks Raoul very interesting video. I have always wanted either a Pinarello or Colnago but the pension wouldnt stretch that far so I was hoping this was going to persuade to buy a copy. Well that's that idea out of the way then. Probably going to buy a Yoeleo frame set if they still do one with rim brakes as Oz Cycle seems to recommend them. Why the big brands cant see that if they lowered their prices the volumes the sold would treble over night I don't know. Alongside Oz Cycle , Hambini and a few others your now why of my go to channels. Stay safe out there.
Not saying the costs shouldn't be lower on the genuine one but people are not accounting for development cost, etc for the genuine one.
copying or designing based off of another's design is one thing(I don't completely disagree with it). Misleading someone with a counterfeit is not at all cool and demonstrates a deep disrespect for the activity it is counterfeiting. Take the stratocaster guitar for example. There are successful companies who make(superb) almost 1:1 strat copies. And it's cool to do so. They sometimes add some minor innovations or more options than what you may be able to get from Fender. But all in all I'm not terrible against copying as long as it is done as good or better than the original. Actually you can literally buy a hand made strat copy that is arguably better than an og strat!
Phew - so glad that 99.5% of my riding happens indoors on a KickR... so when my new frame (a $470 no-brand naked-carbon Chinese clone of a BMC TeamMachine SLR01) arrives, any differential in build quality barely matters[1].
Also, indoors there are no halfwits in insecurity wagons (SUVs) and other assorted moron-transporters trying to smoosh me or door me. No pedestrian crossings, traffic lights or T-intersections; no risk that someone steals my bike if I stop for a coffee.
Zwift is *very* unrealistic in that respect. The most unrealistic thing though is being able to pedal non-stop for an hour at an average speed of 42km/hr starting at 5pm... without ever having your life at risk. (Hell, I can do that in my undies with a glass of wine next to my bike).
[1] In reality it only *almost* doesn't matter. Very rarely I'm too lazy to walk a total of 2.2km to get something from Woolworths (or some booze from Aldi or BWS); then I ride my bike (currently a *real* Specialized Allez with Dura-Ace running gear). WIth the pending FUD-lethal horror of a knockoff Chinese frame I'll probably walk all the time.
Why would you spend $470 on something you only ride indoors?
been waiting for this one! cheers
BEST VIDEO OF 2020 so far. Laughed a lot. Chinarello=Pinarello, flaws everywhere. Sorry for the fanboys/- girls ... Keep on spending your money for crap!! The brand means nothing regarding quality... LOL and thank u Raoul, we need your cut-ups so much!!!!!
Thank you so much for your content. Your video on the S Works SL5 Tarmac helped me to make a decision on purchasing a carbon bike frame set up. Some of this stuff is so over priced and poorly made it's silly.
There should be some kind of international standards body for carbon bike construction. Aviation, Marine & Aerospace sectors have standards bodies that (for the most part) prevent shoddy crap from being used in our planes, ships and cars. That bike manufacturers continue to allow sub-standard rubbish to be foisted on a greedy public looking to save a few bucks is unconscionable. The Chinese govt, could, if they wanted to, prevent such blatant forgeries. But they don't.
There are standards. There ils an ISO test for bike frames which they must pass for UCI to certify it
The UCI approval is for shape only, not related to structural integrity.
@@LuescherTeknik oh my mistake. But there are definitely iso standards for structural integrity of frames.
Yes, but only 1 frame needs to be tested, then make as many as you want. Also the tests are based more on metal failure modes than composite in my opinion.
@@LuescherTeknik Can I ask (no, beg:) you to get together with Hambini and start a grassroots-based , science led effort to shame bike manufacturers into providing a safe, tested product? Or failing that, contact some ambulance-chasing type US lawyers to start a class action suit? :) It took Ralph Nader in US to force seatbelt inclusion - which as we all know, was fiercely resisted by US carmakers.
Guy paid money for the Italy-bonded Pinarello, and found out the bonding was actually much worse. . .
Thank you as always for uploading these educational videos in your free time. Like you said, these copies lack support in critical areas and I suspected exactly that. I had a fake Wilier before and the rear triangle was noticeably softer. The rear tire rubbed the chainstays when I was pedaling out of the saddle.
Appreciate the education. Thanks for the content. This type of eye opening subject matter is always better when delivered by a true Subject Matter Expert like yourself. I guess the proof of the pudding is still, in the tasting, and hopefully it’s not asphalt you end up tasting.
Great video. All cyclists should see this. It’s disappointing all around, really. A low-quality fake is expected, but I would hope a real Pinarello would be manufactured better than that. I’d love to see more videos like this, but I’m sure it’s not easy and certainly isn’t cheap.
Which company manufactured the Chinarello? How old was it and how many km’s was it ridden before it was retired?
We are dealing with small sample sizes for analysis. Are the same problems re-occurring in frames made by certain manufacturers?
Raoul - your videos are highlighting important issues. Thank you and keep up the good work.
Great video! I wouldn't want to be on either of these bikes! For what Pinarello charges for their framesets, I would expect better from them. The quality of both of these is rubbish! I have always thought that this particular generation of the Dogma, with the wavy stays and forks looked ugly. Its overly complicated shape really served little purpose, and you have made the point that simpler is better when trying to obtain optimum quality. So far, I have seen very few bladder molded bikes that I have ever wanted to own, though I must admit that I do lust after the new S-Works SL7. Thanks again for this great video! Please cut up a few Colnagos for us!
According to NTN I think it was, an average, low-end automobile has 38 (rolling element) bearings. Imagine if bike manufacturers made cars.
and they have the balls to call themselves engineer!!!
Valid points here. I do wonder how their current F12 frameset holds up in this test. This cut frameset is 3 or 4 generations old. Would be interesting to see how things have improved if at all. I’m led to believe they have improved. If you keep making a frameset lighter and lighter, there is less margin for error in the layup process. One might say if any of these blemishes existed in something like the F12 Xlight, the results would be catastrophic on frame walls as thin as those. So much so, that in that instance, quality control really becomes safety control.
No princess blanket? None required.
Hello Hambini fans! 😂
Chinarellos and other knockoffs (especially the early versions) were made with the main selling point of “looking like” an expensive bike. Aside from being tacky, I wouldn’t ever trust or ride one.
That said...I rode an open mould frame for years and had thousands of trouble free miles on it. I sold it locally and that rider also rode it for a long time. It’s now on its third owner and still going strong.
David Garza Good point. The wavy Pinarello designs are so tacky. I’m fairly sure no meaningful structural modeling went into designing those. It was just some guys in marketing deciding We need to stand out somehow so Let’s make the frames curvy.
@@chinarello2928 very very good point indeed
I guess "the Pinarello Onda", the wavy parts of the frame where by design, so that copy clones were much more difficult to make and most cloners would chose other brands to copy from. Inherent copy protection. ;)
Great video - would have been helpful to initially point out that Pinarello does not manufacture their frame in a company owned facility in Italy, but sources it from a sub contractor in Asia (I think Giant).
The real Pinarello frames are made by Carbotec Industrial of Taiwan and China.
@@KellogsFerns thanks,
Every time I ride here in Japan, I see many pinarellos, seem to be very popular among japanese riders. Also saw them in bicycle stores, they are quite expensive as well. Didn’t know that quality on these sucks!
I bought a non-branded Pinarello inspired frame with the snake fork back in 2010 with a set of 80mm carbon wheels.
That frame and wheels set is still going strong to this day. I would rather buy non branded, molded frame design over a branded replica. I would rather have a frame where you know they hopefully havent cut costs on the frame to fit in the paint job. With that being said, I doubt that any company selling sub-par products would still be around. Most Chinese Carbon factories have 10+ years and I prefer supporting the Chinese factories by buying their carbon products over a western brand.
I have recently bought a Chromoly frame and using a brand called ToSeek for all the carbon parts (Seat-post, stem, handlebars, spacers) and built up a commuter and have over 3500Km on that build and not one issue with the carbon.
thank you china for making replicas of any article or object that are similar to the originals ...... even cell phones are made in china
This is a Think 65.1.... many many years old build and hardly a current comparison. I own a 2015 F8 and 2016 F8 clone. And Ive bought a few Used clones over time and can see the improvement in build quality. In my experience comparing my 2 bikes:
Chinarello
frameset weighs a tad more, say 120gms
Aside from the lack of the Bar code serial number under the BB visually they are indistiguishable and share the same parts. You can use all the genuine plugs, seatpost, bearings in either.
Internally both have been BAGGED in construction, in fact the Chinarello is a bit tidier inside around BB and HT.
Forks feels so confidence inspiring on fast downs and through corners.
F8
A tad lighter in the frameset
A bit faster in a sprint and steepest hill climbs at max power. So one can assume a bit stiffer in the BB and HT areas. Real uses 1100 vs 800 Toray.
I sold the CHINARELLO to my road racing family neighbour (full disclosure so he knew) He needed a $1K bike for his son and was happy to take it (SRAM Red 10sp, DA C35 wheelset). The son, experienced racer in his youth, commented this is the first bike in years he has felt confident riding in fast descents, better than the TREKS, Scotts, Cerveolos etc they had been using.
The biggest concern with Chinarellos will be getting a good one. There must be a few making them and I have seen some that are rough on the inside and in my opinion an inferior build. So I check who the supplier is for this reason. There is one I know makes a good product.
ALSO if you watch a story on Geraint Thomas / Team SKY that covers this period when SKY were riding the 65.1 the comment was the bike was SLOW so they didnt expect much from it. Then the F8 was launched and SKY took off. IMO this video, while interesting, is very out of date given we are in 2020. If we dissected say a 2018 version of each then I would pay more attention. cheers
Thanks for the comments, yes things have improved over time however the 65.1 was touted as being state of the art at the time and superior to others. Because the Chinarello I was given was a copy of that model it was chosen as the comparison. If someone sends me a current F12 and Chinarello copy I will gladly do a review.
Referring to your words at the end, you don't know what you get when you buy such a fake frame. That sir, is definitely correct! BUT you don't know this when you buy the original either. From an engineer's standpoint the built quality of the original one is crap too. All this voids on the joints are scary and dangerous. For the given price point there's no excuse for such poor quality. That's daylight robbery on customers, nothing less or more.
Here's an idea. Genuine manufacturers must be forced to provide a scan of each frame proving their structural integrity. Or Raoul could offer this service, via partner scanners, across the world. If I was shelling out £5-6K on a bike, paying £100 for a scan, which may save my life, would be easy :)
Canyon frames are scanned in their factory before assemby.
@@DilbertMuc Interesting, thanks. Are buyers of Canyon frames provided with this scan as a "certificate"? If I buy a cheap modern car like a Dacia for £5k, I know that (nearly) all its components, metalwork, seats - literally everything in the damn car has been tested to high crash/safety standards. That's what I'd expect if I was paying £5k for a damn bike :)
It's not so much the scanning that is important but the interpretation and review of the scan data. I have seen quite a few scans of forks from the bike factories which were full of voids but some were still accepted!
@@LuescherTeknik Thanks.
Pinarello quality........ >
Honestly, I wouldn't risk my life on the Chinarello or Pinarello because neither of them seems to stand the test of time. Even the Pinarello has production flaws that are not acceptable. It seems to me it is sheer luck if you get a proper built bike frame, be it Chinarello or Pinarello.
Thanks for posting this. It's terrific that knowledgeable and skilled individuals like yourself help us to understand the hands in which we place our lives.
I've bought a few frames of ebay/Aliexpress and it's been SCARY what is being sold.
VEGAN i see you everywhere
True
@@chileloco26 😆🤣
Because he go no kids lol
If you told me these were both pinarellos made on different days I wouldn't question it.
Chinarello is very good
This is great to know. The sad thing is this:
Me: sees Pinarelo frame on ad/video/picture.
Also me: browses around and finds impossible to afford :(
Aliexpress: your dream "come true", get it for 1/8 of the price.
Me: cross fingers, buys Chinarelo.
Very interesting and informative and I have one of those Pinarello Prince frames from about 2010 and its my turbo bike now.
Has it cracked at the non drive side chain stay yet? Many did.
Luescher Teknik I actually had a pretty bad crash which resulted in a three inch hole in the top tube that you could put your finger through. Sent it to a carbon repair specialist here in the UK and he repaired it so well You had to look very closely to find the original hole. Raced for a few seasons more on it with no issues but retired it to the turbo. I will have a look at the stays now just to see if there is any sign of cracking etc.
I found one that didn't have any adhesive in the chain stay joint, just held together with the 1 ply cosmetic over wrap!
Luescher Teknik Funny, when I ordered my Pinarello I was going to Treviso in Italy for a holiday where the factory is and I asked if I could get a factory tour as I had just ordered an expensive frame but they declined. I thought they were manufactured in Italy but they were only assembled there, not really “Made in Italy” I have a Cipollini now but I don’t really want to know what you think of their manufacturing,
@@scottjohnston150 It should be called a warehouse tour not factory tour! I've had quite a few Cipollini frames come through.
With the price of a real Pinarello a normal human that don’t race professionally and don’t get THE REAL BIKE for free can buy 23 Chinarellos.
I think all depend what type or ride you gonna do.
I won’t ever think to go 100km down hill with a chinarello, but 30-40km/h on a flat in good road FOR SURE I GO CHINARELLO, good inspection, still the original have also lot of defects even on that cray price. 😅
The seatpost area on the Pinny is just as likely to fail as the headtube on the fake.
But you won't land on your face if it does, only get carbon splinters in your butt. Painful sure, but it's unlikely to kill you.
That misses the point completely.
@@robinseibel7540 I see your point. if It came down to it I'd take a seat tube failure than.a fork or head tube any day.
@@glennoc8585 That's exactly it. A head tube failure can net you nasty face injuries, a head injury, a wheelchair for life, or things much worse. A seatpost failure might hurt, but it's much less likely to cause serious injury or death.
@@robinseibel7540 non sense. You can get seriously hurt or not on both failures.
Magic video and I love the attention to detail with each section. Shows exactly what how well they are made.
Would interesting to see a 2020 Pinarello cut up to see if things have improved.
Unless you know for sure the “counterfeit item” was not built in the Chinese Pinarello Factory, you are simply making an assumption and offering an opinion. You took two different sized frames and examined them. Different frame geometries will obviously have different build aspects, including the internal cable routing guides. The bikes with serial numbers are shipped to the Pinarello factory in Italy. The other ones are still made in the same factory, but are simply not serialized. The other thing is that the “real” bikes are just assembled in Italy and are not Made in Italy. They (the frames) are ALL made in China/Taiwan. There are riders with well over 10k km on bike frames purchased directly from the Chinese factory and there is nothing wrong with them still. In my opinion, you just compared two real pinarello frames, they were just different sizes and therefore had different construction aspects. As with all carbon fiber frames, you are trading weight for durability. Carbon fiber need pre-ride inspections every time.
Hi. Have you done a recent canyon bike? If not is it on a list to do? Thanks.
Brilliant Video
the Chinarello BB Looks Better !!!!!!
Just GOT A FAKE 29er FM-M009
General Motors FWD IMPALA
1 Wheel MAde in China
Other Wheel Made in Venezuela !!!
out Side Looks the SAME ?????? WTF
I have a few comments:
1. this is from the Dogma 65.1 days. The chinese knockoffs have improved a lot since.
2. the real vs the fake... actually seems to favor the fake when price is factored in.
Would I buy a fake? No. But I would not hesitate one bit to buy a lesser known Chinese or Taiwanese brand for 1/3 the cost. That genuine 65.1 frame in here looks atrocious, and I'm willing to bet today's Chinese lesser known brands make better frames now.
China carbon frames.much better...the branded frames all go to the supporting the marketing section....actual facts...the chinerellor much better...
Interesting review.
1) The risk of death is overstated. Of the 5 cyclist deaths in the UK per year, 80% are due to a motorist, and the other times its due to inattention of the cyclist. Frame failure is not a major cause of death.
2) It amazing to observe that people a fooled into thinking this brand alone has carbon manufacturing flaws. Its every bike, most of which are made in Asia because labour is cheaper, is subject to flaws
3) lastly the rip off factor. Given that china can sell a frame for 1/10th of the price somehow makes a counter argument for fake items. They balance out the overpricing to bring the product to market at a 'fair and reasonable' price to the majority
So because not many people get injured or killed by bad manufacturing that is okay? What if it is you or someone in your family?
@@LuescherTeknik What if you get hit by a car cycling to work to earn the money to purchase the real Pinarello? Costs result in risks. We knew at the start that we were comparing a failed frame with a non failed frame but the very interesting and clearly expert video convinced me that either frame could l have failed, such as at the unbonded joint, and that Pinarellos have failed too. I hope Pinarello are watching this.
comparing price-quality is by far in favor to Chinese carbon frames, few hundreds comparing to few thousands , when most of time those bike will be used at max 30-40% of performance for what they are build for ... even if it cracks ,it cost 10% of price for Pinarello..
Great video. It's a shame that the chinarello people wouldn't just invest is some marketing and pr and develop their own brand. The technogy and process is obviously comparible to the pino with some issues with quality which I'm sure could be easily addressed.
Are the problems (at the headtube, bearing race not seated and too little carbon near the junction) that were found in the Chinarello likely to be repeated in the manufacturing process? Would you wager that another frame from the same maker would have the same flaws? Why?
Carbon bikes in general are F'n scary, man. I think the only carbon brand that I would put 100% confidence in is Calfee, but at the price they go for I won't be buying one of those either.
The solution? Buy steel, aluminum, or Ti (if you can afford it) from a reputable brand.
My overall impression is..... say Not to the Chyna Bike.... and don’t waste your money on the real thing!
OK, it was a Pinarello that had failed... looking at the cut sections it seems to have been a close run thing over which joint failed first. Friday afternoon fail, or a Monday morning hangover hatchet job? Either way it looks shit!
That design flaw is criminal. Terrible part of the frame to cut corners. No chance I would ride pirate bike parts...just too risky.
would be interesting to see your oppinion on the never fakes... F10 & F12
are u a bit drunk?
Yep I learnt something.
1. The Chinarello is a cheap piece of rubbish.
2. The Pinarello is an expensive piece of rubbish.
Great Video. I don't know if you already did the same comparison of the Real XR4 and the fake one?
Could you analize pragma bike frame?
That would be really interesting.
have you been able to figure out which aliexpress frames he uses?
@@Sir_Godz The orange-yellow ones.
@@Sir_Godz some of them were from lightcarbon
Hoping you will do a full cut up on a Dogma F8, F10 or F12.
I wish I could find where I read this but, it was observed that the F series had addressed these issues, progressively getting better, F8 through F12.
Maybe you read that in the marketing brochure. I have a few F8's ;)
This is very shocking as the reputation of Pinarello is so high. How truly disappointing and certainly not worth the high prices.
The creases on the outside of the frame look a bit sharper and more pronounced on the Pinarello, they are a bit softer on the fake.
That is probably an advantage actually.