The Paris - Roubaix Tech Paradox - Time for a rethink.
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
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He's almost describing my Niner MCR9; a full sus gravel bike with 50mm front and back and yes, a proper frankenbike. where it absolutely shines is on rutted hardpack gravel (like dry downland chalk trails) or on rutted bridleways. its amazing how I can be following someone and then as soon as the surface gets a bit rough/washboardy, other riders go backwards as the shocks soak it up.
I thought the same thing straightaway, it's an MCR9 with a Topstone carbon lefty fork. Would be incredible to see a big budget team splash the cash for one of these non-sponsor approved weapons.
I was wanting to get one to be funny at XC mtb races,
@@comeridewithmeAE yes I rode it at an XC MTB race recently, the only one on a drop bar bike, with full sus of 4-5" predominating. It kept me busy I tell you. that i finished in the top third of the pack (and me still sporting my Jan Ullrich post-christmas physique) is a testament to how capable it is. Definitely funny peculiar. it does nothing brilliantly, and its the best bike I've ever had.
Oh wow, that looks great! Someone should tell Matej Mohoric about it, and dare him to use it in next years race! :)
Honestly, at my local cyclocross races the fastest bikes are the mountain bikes. They’re not allowed to have official sanction, prizes, or even have an official race classification, but they are allowed for the fun an enjoyment of the event and the bike community. But it’s pretty clear they’re better than a cx bike on the course.
I ♥ this video. As a roadie for over 35 years, I'm convinced that most roadies are masochists that derive pleasure from riding bikes that offer little or no rider comfort... and I was one of them for decades. It wasn't until I bought my first Trek Domane endurance bike in 2014 that I realized how much better I felt after a long ride when the bike itself absorbed some of the road shock. It's been endurance bikes for me ever since.
I have a 2013 Specialized Roubaix SL3 and totally agree. It's SO much comfier than any of my other bikes and far less tiring on long rides. We have a lot of old worn out roads in the Highlands of Scotland and it just glides over them. On my Cannondale CAAD I feel every stone.
the perfect bike already exists. a french randonneur with 650b x 47, add the aforementioned variable tyre pressure system in the hub, deflate the tyres to 15 psi in the cobbles, inflate to 40 psi on smooth road, and you're gold.
“The bike industry ignores the basis principles of vehicle dynamics” ❤
Also cyclingtips did a video asking about the team's used tire pressures. Everyone was below 4bar some even under 3bar. With those speeds and heavier riders you're almost guaranteed to hit the rim leading to the total failures we saw. It's like they've gone too far with the flimsy unprotected road tires.
If you run more than 4 bar in road tubeless then you must love your Dentist
this is the whole point of going tubeless...
There's been a number of attempts at suspension at Roubaix. The market for this bike would be the gravel scene. However, cyclo cross stays fun and interesting to watch because legislation forces the bikes to run a maximum tire width and makes the bikes less optimal than they could be. In turn, this means that the riders with the greatest skill in both riding and set up choice will prosper. Running full suspension bikes across Roubaix would make it boring and kill the race.
It wouldn't be boring. The riders with suspension would soon be gasping for air, with the added weight and not-so-great-of-an-advantage on cobbles.
Didn't the racers who rode on RockShox win...30 years ago? I was puzzled as to why they didn't continue to use them.
@@larrylem3582 that’s indeed a strange thing. I guess most in the peloton choose for rockshox as not to have their competitors have an advantage. A kind of collective craziness (if the big favorites do it, then I will do it). There were still some riders on standard bikes that year who finished top 10. I guess museeuw’s full suspension bike didn’t help to spread the idea that suspension was successful (even if tchmil won the race with a rockshox).
I've been running tubular 25mm tyres on devon pothotles, which are everywhere btw, no pinch flats or nothing, no flats either AND no penalised when the going gets smooth occassionaly :) good shit PT!
Would it have a Hambini BB though?
Looks like my ideal commuter bike! 25odd k in and out of Tokyo, mostly smooth tarmac but enough washboard surfaces from construction (or just hgvs) to rattle my eyeballs out!
FYI the race is called "Hell of the North" not for the cobles but because it went through areas devastated by World War 1.
So if you give the bikes suspension and bigger tyres it will still be L'Enfer du Nord because of the route not the surface.
All the Aeroads also ran fixed bolts through the top on the stems, instead of just being tightened on the back, like in the video you posted about the cockpit a while back.
It's a small thing, but they know that the original headset system cant take cobbles either
5:13
Wout Van Aert had already punctured before the turn, probably during his initital seated acceleration.
You can see his back-wheel starting to whip sideways in the straight after he gapped Van Der Poel
it's almost comical how the race is supposed to be all about the epic cobble battle (according to the retro bike race romantics) but riders try their best to get onto the good lines, aka the dirt shoulders off the cobble because the bikes just aren't made for going fast on cobble
And the riders. They aren’t made for going fast on cobbles either.
These bikes actually existed and had success in PR in the early 90s. Rock Shox were ridden to victory. Cannondale headshock used by Saeco, and there was a Bianchi prototype with a rear damper similar to the one proposed by PT.
Bianchi full suspended in fact
Ive ridden the cobbles in Arenberg.
Best bike would be a Trek Domane SLR rim brake with 30mm tubulars on spinergy z-lite wheels. Rim brakes of course.
Not many people in the world have ridden this combo but it is the best for routbaix.
That said remember Specialized gave Boonen a headshock bike and it didnt want to use suspension so they put a fake steel block into it and it was fully locked out the entire race.
If it didnt snap we would have never known.
love the intro "Hello..." :)
Thanks for answering a question that no true fan of European bike racing, who love the tradition of the sport are asking. As an engineer, you are aware that solving a problem (the job of an engineer) is making sure the problem is correctly and/or adequately described. In this case you failed to do that. You thought your job was to design a bike that could survive 'The Hell of the North'. That problem has ready been tasked and resolved - it's called a mountain bike.
The Paris Roubaix is not a problem that needs to be resolved for road bikes. It's an endurance race, meant to be extremely difficult, somewhat dangerous, and something only few people in the entire world could make an attempt, and even fewer who could complete and few still who could possibly win. In other words, to bike fans who think Paris Roubaix is a problem for road bikes that needs to solved, then remove all the difficult parts and make the course as smooth as possible - problem solved. In other words a boring ass race.
This is what happens when an engineer has to much free time on his hands and decides to find a 'problem' to solve.
I hit a cattle grid at 50kph, and the tubeless tyre got a pinch flat from the direct and solid impact, shooting sealant out and rapidly deflating. At the elevated speeds, and the lower pressures, the trye just doesnt have enough protection for those high and exposed cobbles. The pro teams try a little too hard to reduce pressures with tubeless i my opionion, causin the failures.
For extra info, i ride over the same cattle grid every day. At lower speed, or higher pressures, I have never had a problem. It was the combination of high speed and optimised comfort pressure.
And you could have a remote lockout for the smooth sections. Scott may be interested in the design looking at the the direction that their MTBs are going.
3:03 You state that riders have to suffer rolling resistance penalty for 6 hours.
That's not true for those riders on tubulars with latex inner tubes: You can have 1 bar more at the start of the day (let's say 5.5-6 bar at 28mm), greatly profit from less rolling resistance, go with a somehow high enough pressure over Wallers in order not to flat, and go on Mons-en-Pevele in the last hour with 4.5-5 bar at 28mm. Just to say that tire pressure is NOT necessarily constant. The fact that latex inner tubes lose air, has been used to great advantage by riders such as Tom Boonen.
And also it doesn't hold for the winner of this year's edition: MvdP changed bikes before the first cobbles, going from 28mm to 32mm. So your theory about riders having a 30 watt penalty for 6 hours... is simply not true. Riders are smart, you know.
4:17 more than half of the punctures were on Vittoria...
Err... That's based on what YOU could see from the footage. You probably know that the sampling of flats you see on TV is biased, as they focus on riders in the front. If we look at the riders who were most on TV, we have riders from Alpecin (MvdP, Philipsen), DSM (Degenkolb) and Jumbo (Laporte, van Aert). Those teams were on Vittoria. The whole podium was on Vittoria. That's 100% of riders, while Vittoria only sponsors 33% of teams... Just saying (based on the same, flawed statistics as the one you base you assumptions on). You e.g. didn't see too many flats on Specialized Mondos, while Van Lerberghe, Senechal (2x), Lampaert (2x) and Asgreen flatted...! Only Asgreen was in the footage.
5:05 "they may test those pressures..."
I can assure you that they test this by going hard, very hard. It's no wonder you would see KOMs or top 10s in recon rides.
7:02: Bax (UAE) was already dropping, SPD's wouldn't make any difference.
8:29: you're surprised those air systems weren't more popular... Have you evaluated the front wheel set up and the aero and weight penalties of those?
12:10 "weight is not important, it's a flat race"
Contra-intuitive, but PR has 1500 vertical meters, the first 150K are very undulating and it's easy to loose speed going uphill, so weight does matter. Also, after the many curves (on cobbles) accelleration (and thus reduction of dead weight) is key.
You seem to have many solutions but I seriously doubt if any of those are a real improvement for the race. They will probably improve amateur rider's comfort during a Roubaix cyclosportive when comfort is more important than pure speed (a lot of Roubaix amateurs already use their gravel bikes with wide tires), but that's it.
god you're such a nerd
shut uuuuuuup
The idea of riding MTB pedals has been suggested my many people over the years without taking into account a couple of major issues. You mention having to have the whole team as well as the neutral service bikes. Firstly every rider would have to change pedal systems for ONE race. No pro is going to mess around with contact points with the inherent risks to their knees. That is fine for a leisure rider who isn’t fighting for position before hitting the cobbles. There is a difference between the stiffness of mountain bike shoes, not to mention the extra weight. Shimano tried pushing SPD in the 90s with Dura Ace pedals. It lasted a couple of years and almost every pro ditched them for the Look based pedals that were still available. Robert Millar famously likened it to riding on two walnuts! Shoes are now stiffer but having ridden 140km of Strade Bianche on both in muddy conditions I would use road pedals every time. Specialized’s S-Works Recon shoes add 50g per shoe and MTB cleats are another 15g, all rotating weight a rider will feel. So while in theory MTB pedals make some sense, in the real world they do not.
This is an interesting one for sure, all the pros can clip in quickly with road pedals in normal conditions. But when fatigued and a very rough surface any pro will struggle to clip in to any pedal, you can definitely miss when trying to clip into spd’s.
Better than the F1 reference would be karting. There's people obsess and talk about the frame flex just like in cycling. They just stick to the flat smooth roads.
This is exactly the Bianchi Johan Museeuw used in Roubaix in the early 2000s
Pretty sure his bike snapped and had a lot of issues. I cannot find the article but it was a right pig.
@@PeakTorque It was in 1994 apparently, I can't find much either. Except that it was never tested on asphalt and under preformed on it according to him.
people in the comments of our tech show suggested your vid to me! Really good insight. Enjoyed it.
The Niner MCR 9 could be an off the shelf solution? may be a bit of tube shape or geometry change to pass the UCI rule
The issue with running higher tire pressure and letting the suspension do the work is that the current shocks and forks do not respond quickly enough. Look at a slow mo video of a tire hitting a rock and the tire is fully compressed and starting to rebound before the suspension fork even starts to move. I like to use inserts on my MTB because it provides some damping for the tire's air spring. The road inserts some of the teams used are designed more to just hold the tire on after a puncture....they are too light for any real damping (eg. a cushcore). Something like a Lauf fork would be more responsive, but also undamped. I felt that inflation system used by a few of the Jumbo riders had a lot of promise.
Higher pressure tyres would mitigate some of this, and the whole system has to be tuned to act as a compliant unit, not tyre vs shock. Let the tyre deform for grip and tiny undulations, ensure it's the shock, not the tyre, that's absorbing the pave undulations.
Well I'll be danged 😂 That's one heck of a concept bike. If you ever get it built, we'll send you a set of Polaris 69s to make it work!
On a more serious note though, this is exactly why we designed the Polaris series of rims with the rider in mind. It isn't purely about the aerodynamics - rider comfort, vibration losses, and confidence are important factors to consider when designing a wheelset.
How about using polyethylene spokes to ramp up the vibrational damping even further? And pairing them with high flange hubs to skew radial/lateral stiffness towards latter...
@@feedbackzaloop Perhaps, if stiffness wasn't an issue, that would be a viable option.
There must be a reason PT is referencing Max Verstappen alongside a photo of Lewis Hamilton. Regarding PT's textbook's take on the forward energy loss through vibrational dispersion and heat loss through the the rider: I can attest to another route of energy loss on bumpy tarmac; haemorrhoid propagation.
I think at this stage of the game considering UCI sanctioned road races as venues for meaningful tech development is like relying on Fred Flintstone's Flintmobile as the way forward for clean propulsion. No fairings allowed, disk brakes only now making their way into the pro ranks 20 years after their introduction into MTB'ing, un- and enclosed recumbents prohibited in ITT's, only diamond framed designs are legitimate, etc. Professional road racing has a long history demonstrating that tech development is not an important priority. Why should that change now?
Perhaps a truly forward thinking racer the likes of Lemond will push the pack forward by breaking with orthodoxy and, more importantly, winning with new tech.
I quite like the flintmobile
here we go again: "disk brakes only now making their way into the pro ranks 20 years after their introduction into MTB'in"
Please enlightnen me what disc brakes have contributed to this dry Roubaix, other than resulting in slow wheel changes?
@@l.d.t.6327 It seems more a general statement about how pro's are stunningly backwards when it comes to using vaguely modern technology. They kept trying to tell us helmets were a bad idea, and that downtube shifters were the shit, noone should use anything wider than 19mm tyres, and so on and so forth....
@@l.d.t.6327 maybe linear predictable braking?
@@richardhaselwood9478 Well, I won't mix up real progress with wishful thinking. I mostly see wishful thinking examples in the video.
For pressure control better would be to not let out air when deflating but saving it in reservoir (rim cavity?) under pressure so that air can travel between tire and reservoir depending which valve is open. No motor needed to operate pump, only to open/close valves making air flowing into reservoir or back into tire.
Gotta reinforce that rim cavity quite a bit then I imagine.
Despite all its issues, I would much rather ride a bike with iso speed or something similar for Roubaix than a fully stiff frame. Crazy race
Totally love my new Domane. I've had about a dozen bikes over twice the price and the Domane is the best bike I've ever owned. Oddly enough, it's even faster than my rim brake Soloist with similar shallow wheels. Never expected that.
Racing is about going hard. More comfort in Roubaix (than what they have now) simply doesn't give you more speed. It's that simple. Proposing a comfort bike with suspension is a totally irrelevant idea for the race. Nice for leisurely riders who want to do the cyclosportive, though.
@@l.d.t.6327 That’s not true at all. Comfort results in reduced suspension losses in the rider’s body, so it’s less fatiguing. And that translates to more power available in the rider late in the race. The trick is to find the balance between reducing those losses and increasing them in other areas, like hysteretic losses in the tires. Get the balance right, and that comfortable bike can be significantly faster. Which is what RockShox proved in the early 90s.
@@TheGotoGeekI say they have enough comfort and they already found the balance.
First you say that's not true at all, but next you say 'the trick is to find the balance'.
I say it again: they found the balance. They won't go any harder with more comfort, that is, if that comfort adds weight, results in aerodynamic resistance, etc. The balance is there and the main reason why people don't have energy late in the race is mainly racing tactics.
All the big bike brands have "endurance" and gravel models, but the teams/riders opt for aero frames instead.
Full suspension Roubaix bikes were used in the past, and they have remained in the past.
Tubeless wheels have won the last three PRs, and the random odds and pure luck is what makes this race so rivetting for riders and fans.
Your concept reminded me of Bianchi's PR special for Johan Museeuw, that the usually reserved rider ended up theatrically throwing in a ditch mid-race.
Until a team and constructor combo takes this seriously enough to make (and test!) bespoke cycles for specific races, we will indeed run in circles. Maybe the fallout from this PR could be a decisive trigger ?
And, who knows, your concept could maybe spawn a whole new subniche in the ailing gravel segment. It actually looks like a nice platform to occasionally cycle through typical french argicultural roads.
Brilliant video
I'm going to be running a redshift stem on my new aero bike. Purists will cluck, but I ride on shitty road surfaces, so besides being more comfortable It's just straight up faster.
Love it on my Grizl. I'd have it on my Domane if they ever made it in a -12degree 130mm
Have you considered the cable routing and that the cables can’t be run the way they are on most aero bikes?
@Randy Bumgardener I'm confident I could route cables on my Domane with my Redshift stem. I have a -12degree Zipp stem that's slammed to the cap. I'm probably the only idiot on earth running mechanical brakes on a 4th gen Domane but it works with Jagwire link housing for the brake cable and normal shift housing(I don't like the hood shape on any hydraulic brifters)
Rockshox had a suspension fork for road bikes in the early 90's which was developed specifically for Paris Roubaix. There have been a handful of frames with rear suspension appear over the years, I guess these have less appeal as they are more focussed whereas at least a fork can be swapped out for particular events
A more viable suspension concept for PR would be an active seatpost,suspending the riders weight,using the entire bike as the spring's actuator. Since there are many designs currently in use,a PR suitable version may even exist now. Rider oscillations due to the road surface can be more quickly dampened where the butt hits the saddle than actuation a flexible mechanism between the wheel and frame. Likewise with the handlebar stem,an energy damping connection suspends the rider from the impacts,retaining rigid steering control and light weight. This solution also currently exists. Try these components before re-inventing this wheel.
The UCI don't allow fairings in general (not even tape over bolt access points) so hiding away the suspension tech seems like the biggest problem. Futureshock/Isospeed etc aren't good solutions but, without fairings, the rules kinda force integration of suspension into the frame. There are 1400 m of elevation gain in PR, so weight should have some small consequence too.
Would love to see the concept in real life!
Isospeed is outstanding, I've yet to spend significant time with a futureshock but the bob definitely bothered me on pavement
It's not true in general. For example the Pinarello Grevil F has a fork flap over the front brake caliper and is UCI legal for road and gravel races. Its basically like a fairing, just integrated in the fork.
You could just mount the shock internally like the bold/Scott mtbs.
🤴Brilliant, original content.
Big fan of what you’re doing, PT.
I used to ride a short wheelbase, steep geometry mountain bike with big slicks, both off-road and on. It was quite useful to come up with a way to lock the suspension in the down position, for road. I don't know if any hybrid bikes or mountain bikes offer this feature. Also fantastic for climbing off-road.
How about a seatpost (and handlebars?) with integrated shockabsorbtion that has the aformentioned 40mm of travel?
Granted, that would mean the whole bike would be unsprung weight, but that's only 7/8 kg.
Also, bike manufacturers don't have to design an entirely new frame this way :)
The frankenbike looks pretty beastly and I imagine it would do very well. I just wonder how much rear travel in the rear suspension is really necessary, because there are some more elegant solutions (trek supercalibre or similar) which obviously provide less travel but be lighter and more aesthetically pleasing.
Honestly would love a race on full cobble, but its steal fixies. Would be accurate to honor the fallen soldiers who may have used such bikes
Times are getting faster because there is less pave than decades ago. Dry conditions help. Dopers are more canny, escaping detection.
Commercially viable as a gravel bike. Your mockup looks like the Cannondale Topstone Lefty ebike.
Im a secret fan of the topstone lefty 😊
They also have regular, not e-bike versions. That is the original.
A little surprising because I heard the lefty fork is a design pain.
@@PeakTorque Is it as much faff to get the wheel off as the old one?
@@PeakTorque the Topstone is great, too bad it's non-UCI compliant. I think that's a big reason why it's not as accessible in my market as Cannondale's other bikes.
I prefer it how it is, the less tech and the more challenging it is for the riders the more exciting it is to watch.
Tubeless tires absolutely can and do pinch-flat. (although less frequently than tubed tires)
Great comment on MTB pedals! Seems like a no-brainer.
Love the bike design!
speedplay pedals with the walkable cleat surround might work well for Paris-Roubaix. Double sided pedal & cleat not too skatey to walk on briefly. SPD mtb pedals or Time ATAC would be the best for crappy muddy conditions, IMO.
I'd love to see something like your concept bike in use - it would really shake things up if professionals embraced it too.
I ride a GT carbon grade 25mm of travel at the rear. Bontrager carbon bars with gel inserts. Maxxis Receptor 40mm tires. Compliance is engineered in. 11 36 cassette also gives wide range of gears 500%.
What if the Cannondale teams rode on Capstones? Rear "suspension" relies on carbon flex, but there's a proper Lefty on the front.
But you're probably correct that the powers that be want this race to continue being "The Hell of the North", which proper application of technology would stop it from being.
Curious about the wheel type and tire blow outs. Did you notice any difference between hooked and hookless rims?
Pretty sure from listening to podcast, all the teams that shed the tyre had no insert
I understand that the Frankenstein concept bike is just a rough sketch, but wouldn't it be better for aerodynamics and UCI compliance if the rear shock would be hidden entirely inside the seat tube like in the Scott XC Race Bike?
Nice Tulips.
Interesting that you would address the burp problem with low pressure tubeless on cobbles, and then in the same video praise the tire inflation/deflation system which contributed to the problem. Without that system, teams had to pick a medium pressure that would work on both pavement and cobbles. With the system, they're probably running 40 psi on cobbles which led to some of the burp flats.
Your frankenbike is basically a Topstone with the back end of a Transition Sentinel. aka the perfect bike for a Miami-Redlands rally. What you need to design is a rear suspension that is fully locked until the front wheel senses a disturbance. Predictive damping.
Edit: Holy Shit, I didn't realize Niner made this MCR that I'm seeing in the comments. That would've been perfect for me. Alas, I'm on a 2nd hand TCR-- stiff and light, but of no consequence with me being 300lbs.
1964 Peter Post, 5hrs 52min. 164 miles.
More cobbles 23mm tyres.
Fastest until 2017!!
He went straight from there to a rave, an after party and ended up staring at a fractal in the chill out lounge.
A great video facts common sense will the manufacturers i doubt it thank you i enjoyed it all.
Brilliant analysis! The whole argument applies ot gravel bikes, too! I've built up an old 2007 Cannondale Scalpel frameset with 28 inch wheels and drop-bars. Even though the kinematics are basic the thing is a delight on bad roads! For forks check out the German Answer Kilo 4-bar linkage forks. I've used those on cobbles and there is nothing that comes close, really!
Nice chronograph @PeakTorque
Enjoyed the content as well.
1994-1996 Bianchi had a full suspension road bike ridden in the Paris Roubaix by Johan Museeuw and then Stefano Zanini. They have a page dedicated to it.
Right now, the Niner MCR exists (full suspension gravel bike).
I think you can go one step farther and go for the coil shock in the rear (air shock stiction is going to make it bad at responding to the cobble frequency), then also some kind of lefty linkage fork in the front, also with a coil shock.
Museeuws bike snapped in half i think, because of them using Alu instead of steel in the swingarm as designed. I remember reading that somewhere ages ago, can't find it now though.
I own a Niner MCR, and it's the fastest bike for bad roads.... albeit maybe slightly worse than cobbles . You could probably take a lot more weight out if you wanted to design a suspension bike that can handle cobbles and nothing worse than that. There's also a Cannondale gravel bike that's got around 30mm rear suspension travel with a weight-reduced lefty fork that seems like it might be a little lighter (and also a little more aero).
That Cannondale topstone was the "pre Photoshop" base bike for those theoretical "optimized for PR" bike
@@PeakTorque museeuw did say that suspension is what made him lose the race, the energy wasted with every pedalstroke that went in the shock didn't match up against the gains on the cobbles. according to him. also it was a women's bicycleframe they used. can't remember why that was though
Yes, was going to say I'm old enough to remember having this same discussion 30 years ago...the Bianchi with Rockshox upfront.. we were all over the Rockshox brand in the early glory days of 90's mtb. Though obvs pre-digital so barely counts. At the end of the day all such designs are heavy, flexy and whether faster or not, they 'feel' slow - so the pro's just don't want to ride them as they're so attuned to the feel of their normal bike... changes in 'feel' are such a big deal when you've trained so hard to be specifically optimized.
There is a Niner MCR9.😂
And the solution for suspension is a pivot point on bottom bracket. It is a solution used in BMW G450X - a transmission sprocket was set in the same point where was a suspension pivot point.
I love my circular seat post on my old tarmac
Talks about max verstappen. Shows picture of lewis hamilton. Begins to talk about 'Black stuff looking pretty smooth'.
Kudos for the t-shirt pun 😅
That's just a Cannondale Topstone. Maybe now that they officially have a Lab71 model the road pros will be willing to be seen/photographed on it.
A heavily modified one
I was going to comment to ask if there were any gravel bikes that were like this and yeah that seems pretty damn close minus some aerodynamics from the PT hypothetical design.
@@feetwind Most gravel bikes can run a suspension fork and many models are beginning to incorporate some form of rear suspension. Niner MCR is the most direct.
A mix of a Lefty topstone with perhaps a trek Procaliber 😊
One note about the tire inflation systems:
Hub based is a bodge, it needs to be integrated into the rim, and there's easily room in a deep rim.
Pumping needs to be accomplished by valving, capturing the pressure spike of impacts. This could also provide some cushion by bleeding off pressure. One way blowoff valves could provide the pumping, assisted by a small co2 cartridge.
low pressure would still be beneficial with suspensions, depends on the frequency of the vibration you're trying to absorb. The higher frequency is always handled by the air in the tire, (road surface), I think the suspension would prevent punctures while running low tire pressure, because it would prevent bottoming out.
Ahaha love Hambini intro!
Correct me if I'm wrong but in F1, before last years rule changes to the bigger rims and lower sidewall, it was a truism often mentioned that there was more suspension effect in tyre sidewall deformation than in the suspension system, which tends to be uber stiff... with a lot of deflection also occurring in the carbon support strut. Not sure how the new regs have changed that, but no doubt it will have altered the role of the damper... it will be unremittingly complicated as that combines with aero, the porpoise could confirm.
Tires do way more than suspension in most cases. The exception is cornering in a car - but not on a bike! The solution is to put rubber air suspension on the bike, just like cars riding on bags
Your deam Roubaix bike looks very similiar with the Specialized Diverge STR except the aero optimisation
Would love to see a bike-change frenzy right before the first cobble sector, where 200 participants attempt to change bikes to their suspension aero 35mm tyre concept bike. I'd say thats in the true spirit of the hell of the north
A couple things for Peak Torque:
The elevation climbed by Paris Roubaix is nearly that of the Ronde van Vlaanderen. So, there is meaningful elevation over the epic distance.
You could accomplish a dynamic lockout with a high, forward pivot. But, it honestly is counterintuitive to ride. (Stay seated to activate the suspension. Stand to lock it out.)
If I had lots of free time and money, I’d fiddle with a carbon downtube that takes on leaf spring characteristics. Still needs a damper, though!
An innovative technical solution that is so clever it misses the obvious answer, which is to simply steamroller and tarmac the cobbles. Les Amis de Paris-Roubaix are probably already celebrating!
The bike you design here would have exceedingly low anti squat value just by the look of where the pivot point of the single pivot rear suspension is.
To get the anti-squat up near 100% for a single pivot design, the pivot point would have to be roughly around the top of the chainring. It can't be much lower than that.
The thing is, they tried in the past with a bike like that (there are videos from first Lance's years were some riders used forks from MTB)
More recently Pinarello made frames with elastomers (same specy with the Roubaix model)
Another note: One leg fork isn't always more aero than 2, for reference a Lotus engineer explained that to justify the normal fork in the 110 model, coming from the 108.
55-50% water. Cool video
The future shock seems to work well. Add maybe a seatpost suspension with a lock out. Lets not forget the race is not always decided on the cobbles, sometimes its in a sprint or a short burst of breakaway speed to get a gap the other rider cant close. Its not a time trial. Compromises............
Good study of the race course requirements on the bikes. One facter not covered is cornering traction, largely a function of rider skill right up to the moment the coefficient of friction between tire and road surface is lost. When front tire traction is lost,stability can be regained by a steering input that moves the falling lean direction in the opposite direction. This steering action required is normally much faster than a rider can input to the handlebar. An automated steering input control in these cases would save crashes and keep a race more about riding strategy and fitness. See similar mountain bike systems.
very cool analysis
It would already make a big difference if everyone would be on Redshift stems and seat posts.
Niner MCR doesn't have fairings or a lefty fork, but is otherwise vaguely in this direction.
Something about the really slack seat angle makes me go eww!
Some notes on this:
1- Some brands do have a specific model only for Roubaix, like Specizalized or Trek for example. And they build and supply the bike for only this one race in the whole season.
2- Fairings like the one you talk about for the fork are uci illegal.
3- I doubt this hypothetical bike would be fast enough to ride the first 100km in the peloton without some major losses in energy when compared to other riders on jormal road bikes. Maybe the best strategy is to race the paved part on a normal road bike and then switch to something like this for when the cobbles begin
I still love that intro.
Max has had a good holiday
hard to breathe even when sitting, feels like lungs are inflated, still cigarettes are the only motivation to ride, without a spicy doping like chilling with a cig on a beach
Peak Torque, do you understand that Paris Roubaix was ridden on road bikes with RockShox fork in 1994? And that Pinarello had FS model in 2019 that featured rear shock? Your concept is not new and has been used before to mixed success. Unfortunately, suspension systems aren't as effective at sucking up all the little chatter that is coming from pave. Forks and shocks are effective at bigger hits, but the action is too slow to smooth out smaller vibrations. Even such sensitive fork as Cannondale Ocho is not suitable for this task.
Have you considered that these punctures were not caused by the cobbles, but by sharp objects, glass, chips of flint, etc... Until you know what has caused these flats, going on about tire pressure is of no use. Even in normal races without cobbles they get a flat tire.
Common sense solution: Lightweight, responsive and flexible steel frame with conventional wheels and tubular cx tires.
Engineering solution: full-suspension carbon bike with antidamping.
Marketing solution: Oh wait!
...
Good out-of-the-box thinking! How about KIS though? Divide the P-R course into two segments, one all smooth-paved road for road bikes and one a mixture with mostly cobbles, maybe even make a little add-on off-road course to tie in with with the cobbles. Then just do a bike change from road to mountain bikes.
I wonder would your prototype bike transfer well over to basic gravel scene. All of the gravel bikes are also very rigid, made with the same mindset that the tires should be doing all the vibration dampening work. Full suspension gravel bikes with a lockout mechanism for paved sections should be the new norm in my opinion.
Fun Fact: Tom Boonen never flatted in Roubaix.
tbh i think a "aero fully road racebike" could be quite the comercial success considering fully gravel bike will become a thing in ultra distance gravel racing due to more comfort, *i could see loads of dentists buying this*
Build it and win it to prove it
I think flex stays and a suspension system like what Trek employed on the Supercaliber may be the best way forward
The whole point and appeal of Paris-Roubaix is using equipment that's not fit for purpose.
Back in the day Crank Bros had Quattro pedals which were road versions of egg beaters. Rokshoks have been tried.
~ Niner MCR + Aero Wheelset , or to a lesser extent the new Diverge STR (which has lockouts for the dampers).
"Mountain bike" SPD pedals? If you're old, like me, you'll remember they were initially developed for road use but just couldn't break the Look / Time stranglehold. Shimano then developed their own Look pattern pedals and repurposed their SPD's for off road use. I actually had a set of Dura Ace SPD road pedals and they were excellent - I ended up using them on my Tri bike for years.
Absolutely BLOODY LOVE this analysis/insight. My only question, WHAT ARE THE REQUIREMENTS? As, are you building a concept for a Museeuw, Cancellara, Sagan, MVDP....meaning a definite champion, with a fully conditioned physique, pave-riding skill and technique or a bike for everyone?
Reason I ask, is you listen to a century of commentary and you hear/see riders riding on the crown of the pave with hands on the tops, not the hoods, not the drops. You, mostly, see them not constantly chopping the corners that are potholed and often, the Mapei riders talked of double-taping bars.
So.....I wonder if superior/compliant layup of CF rims, a superior/softer spoke layup, a superior/spring rear stays layup/length and maybe an included elastomer insert/dampener in tops of handlebars/rest heel of hands....would make a champion's bike just more like to deliver a champion result.
I ask this as, what TRULY IS THE ROOT CAUSE of the punctures and mech, is it purely frame, fork and tyre design or is it racing intensity causing poor technique and decisions, taking technology of tyre sidewall from low risk to high risk.
I say all this, as you're probably fully aware, we saw all the WW2 bombers shot to pieces and instantly thought SHEEEESH best protect the bomber from the bullets, yet those bombers survived....maybe if we look to the champions and survivorability, maybe we see conditioning, technique, calm tactics and also minor design/installs for P-R, rather than wholesale tyre and bike changes.
Simply, bike swaps for first 100+km to last 100+ km makes soooo much sense, with maybe a 32-35mm front and a 35-40mm rear tubeless and longer rear stays on the last 100km.
Ha ha ha, pretty certain there'd be steel frame builders that could lengthen and widen stays and give you a softer rider with a 35-50mm rear tyre and probably give you 90%+ of required benefits.
GREAT WORK.....KEEP ASKING & SOLVING THE REAL PROBLEMS (most of which are caused by bike manufacturing companies creating BS technology)
That design would be UCI illegal for many reasons including fairings and heavily dropped seat stays.
All down to tire size and pressure. Min,32mm mtb mash up needed pedals as well.