Can We Talk About This? Roguelikes
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- Опубліковано 21 вер 2024
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#roguelike #gaming #review
Please give me roguelike suggestions! I'm looking to do a massive roguelike video and I want to play your favorites in it!!!
Darkest Dungeon 2 - I played it when it first came out and it just released on Steam yesterday. Highly recommend.
This should be obvious enough but risk of rain 2
A really wierd one is Ak-xolotl (you are an axolotl welding various guns and find other ak's)
dead cells
Enter the gungeon
there's a new multiplayer one coming out on the 22nd called Inkbound
i enjoyed it when trying the demo a few months back during next fest
Imagine if this gem of a human was still stuck creating Leauge content, glad seeing your style of content covering something else
League of Legends is honestly kind of boring these days. They've recently reworked some items which is kind of cool I guess, but in terms of champions it's just the same old and really stale.
League content creators are like Disney Channel sitcom actors. Only like 5 percent of them can branch away and be successful
who would of thought that getting rid of all content that isn't the competitive mode would drive away content creators. rip nexus blitz twisted treeline etc
Even if scooch never sees this, thank this man for using his big ol being to use his funny and interesting character to keep doing content
@@CottidaeSEA LoL is boring since 2016 , yall just forced content creators to stay on it by proxy. Dont watch boring game's video
I love rogue likes the most as an adult because I don’t have to worry about a story or picking up a game and remembering where I left off. I just pick a rouge like up, and have fun for hours, not play it for weeks, then come back and play it again for and entire weekend. I absolutely love it
Let a roguelike rest for a year, come back and realize you forgot all builds and strategies, because you played like four other roguelikes in the meantime...
@@lupeters213 then you get to learn again
Figuring out the game is half the fun
You take a break for 3 months and then remember you were playing Hades and haven't beaten the main story yet.
This is me with Isaac. I have almost 2K hours in it. I used to completely no-life it, then burned out hard. Nowadays I play it for a few days straight every few months or so and take another break. It's great
Exactly
Despite knowing the meaning behind terms like "Soulslike" and "Metroidvania", I only realized today that there was a game called Rogue that inspired... Roguelikes.
I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding of the argument for the use of roguelite. It's not just some guys in Berlin came up with a thing (that wasn't even really that interesting or important tbh, it was more just writing down stuff people implicitly already believed), it's why they wanted to do that. The simple fact of the matter is that I wouldn't recommend Nethack, ToME, or ADOM to someone who likes Isaac, but I would recommend Hades, Dead Cells, and Risk of Rain 2. And there's enough games on either side of that divide that it's worth having two different terms. The very fact that the only traditional roguelikes that show up at all in this video are Rogue and the first Mystery Dungeon just to touch on the history of the genre is itself proof of that divide and how they appeal to different audiences.
The reason people prefer to call them "roguelite" is because these games are completely different from traditional roguelikes. And the traditional, grid based turn based roguelikes are still being made, Hades, The binding of isaac and Spelunky are not a betterment of traditional roguelikes, they are a different branch of a genre that is still ongoing. The problem is not only semantics, but there is also the fact that traditional roguelikes are very niche these days, so it would be nice if it could at least keep it's name since they mostly can't even come close to roguelites in sales. Most fans of traditional roguelikes are very much into roguelites, so it's not a feud thing, just a recognition that they are two different genres, because they are. But by now most people just accepted that we'll just have to refer to traditional roguelikes as that instead of changing the newer genre name to roguelites, since most people seem to be unwilling to change a "k" to a "t".
Though not mentioned, glad to see some footage of Crab Champions in there. It has no right being as fun as it is, and it's impressive how much it can handle before breaking. It's a game made to be broken, and it's beautiful.
My computer had a 3080 in it and I still managed to get framedrops after loop 2 because I was spawning so much explosions LOL
@@Skooch I'm on a 3070ti, with an i7-6700k and 32 GB RAM, and this game tanks frames to single digits. Managed to crash it yesterday with a minigun hitting 40+ billion DPS. Firing it for too long would crash the game, but it will chug along at single digit frames until it just breaks with all the multipliers. It's impressive it doesn't crash with a basic integer rollover.
@@scubajho none of those words are in the bible and I love you for saying them
@@Skoochwait crab champions has LOOPS?!?!
@@scubajho40 BILLION PER SECOND???
I saw a couple clips of it already, but I cannot recommend Risk of Rain 2 enough!! It’s so insanely fun and I believe the creators are coming out with another Roguelike this year!
yeah they are remaking 1st game :)
It is also a great game to play with 3 other players
@@TheKraaaze the creators sold the series, they aren't involved with the remake
@@TheSandurz20 No the remake is the last game hopoo are making with gearbox then they abandon the series.
Yeah can't believe it wasn't mentioned
I stand by the separation of Roguelike and Roguelite. There really is a different experience when you have literally 0 meta progression. With Roguelites, you can be bad at the game, but getting one lucky run can give you an unlock the makes the game somewhat or substantially easier in future, thus bypassing a large portion of the learning curve of the game. With true Roguelikes, all progression is purely in your knowledge of the game, gained through experience. Which, to me, is one of the purest forms of progression. That said, I wouldn't want a perfectly fun game to be stifled by adherence to an outdated set of rules for the genre. With the newly released Darkest Dungeon 2, while the combat is super fun (naturally), being able to come back to the Altar and unlock new items for future runs adds another layer of enjoyment that would be absent if all items were unlocked from the beginning.
Also, on the subject of Roguelike(likes), one of my favourites is a classic called Dungeons of Dredmor. It's pretty close to a true roguelike (minus the ticking clock of a hunger bar), has a lot of witty charm, and lots of ways to customize your runs with being able to select skills that shape your character for each run. GIve it a shot if you're looking for something new.
I like to tell people who try to diffrentate roguelikes and lites (like you, I was one myself) that, it seriously doesn't matter because it doesn't create a new genre to be called as it was. There is seriously only one thing that is different and the rest is exactly the same. And your argument about knowledge is a bit bs, one of the perfect examples is mentioned by you - dd2 where even if you had all the upgrades you won't be able to beat the game if you're shit at the game, and that's where the knowledge goes. I think the real problem are those rogue-likes that won't allow you (or make it just impossibly hard) to beat the game. Moonlighter is an example of it but because it's an rpg and rogue like which makes it awful at being replayable.
@@duckers3240 I respect your opinion, but maintain mine. There is a very tangible difference between a game like Vampire Survivors, and a game like Tales of Maj'Eyal, and I see nothing wrong with differentiating them. Gunfire Reborn, for example, I would consider a Roguelike unequivocally, whereas I would tentatively categorize games like Nuclear Throne and Spelunky into Roguelike, largely due to a lack of meta progression (Throne has crowns, but alnost all of them are power neutral), which is my personal major dividing point between the two genres (though not the only one.) Also, I stand by the example of DD2, because having only the 4 starting heroes, wanderers only with no unlocks (skills + items + memories), while possible to win on knowledge alone (for denial, at least) is SUBSTABIALLY more difficult than having access to any of the unlockables, objectively.
@@jacksonholder2987 So it just comes to how much shit you give about this. I, myself don't give single because it's both not worth the energy to explain the difference and like said in video, it confuses newcomers (And also that part that it doesn't create new genre but i said that in comment before)
I actually quite like the term rogue-lite because for me it defines whether or not the game has permanent upgrades or not, which is quite important for me personally. I don't enjoy rogue-likes because I never feel like I'm making progress as nothing carries over between runs, but I do enjoy rogue-lites because I feel like even if I die, I'm still making progress.
This is the reason why there needs to be a clear definition between roguelike and roguelite. There are people that don't want a game run to end and have nothing. It's the little baby brother of roguelikes and that's fine, games are chosen for how fun they are, and if you're not having fun, then that's a problem.
Yeah, I didn't agree with that take. The change may seem minor but the implications are pretty huge and the experience changes drastically depending on whether there is a permanent progression system or not.
I guess that's because it seems exclusionary or gatekeep-y, but it's a "subgenre", really - just a way to further define a broad definition. Especially since such a systemic change isn't visually apparent, like, if the roguelike in question is an FPS or a hack&slash, it helps players understand what the experience might look like with more clarity if they're new.
i like the term too but i prefer roguelikes to rogue lites in general. When im playing roguelites i do not know if i should be able to beat a certain boss at that point or im going to fast and should grind some first. Also it happened to me once that because of exploring and trying to find everything before fighting with a final boss i was too powerful at that point and beating him didnt feel like an achievement because of this.
@@tomasadams3922 That's a different matter tho, you're playing a roguelite as a completionist RPG, when most roguelites are catered to always fighting the end game bosses. The roguelite you said that's about exploring everything, seems a bit far fetched to be a true roguelite, can you drop the name, i might play it.
@@nestorjrlim3938 rogue legacy 2 have some aspects of metroidvania.
But tbh im a completionist in all rogue likes. In the binding of isaac i play almost exclusively characters i do not have all unlocks with. And in slay the spite i often lost my run because i was trying to get an achievement.
And tbh rogue legacy 2 gets more roguelikey later. And i still enjoy it very much after 30 hours. Its not a lot in a roguelike but enough to be considered a good purchase for me.
Not sure when my love for the genre started, but Hades and Isaac are 100% some of my favourites. Not sure if I can explain it, but I loved Hades because it had a well told story on top of amazing gameplay. The game even caught my girlfriend's attention even though she "does not like roguelikes" and she finished the game even before me because she just loved it that much. Glad to see the games get more attention recently and glad to see you making a video on it. Keep up the bangers
Hades might be the best "entry" roguelike I feel, because as you said it also has a neat little story which gets told in a great way, and the presentation is better for someone who might find all the "dated" graphic stuff a little offputting
I'm an isaac creator, but more in general, I'm a rogue-like enthusiast. I fucking love this video man, you nailed the point.
Roguelikes are everything you need in a game, maybe because some people are just searching for that gameplay loop to be lost in.
I lost count of the games I've tried this year alone: Inscryption, Risk of Rain 2, Hades, Peglin, ETG, and the list goes on...
Finally we're seeing them receive the love they've always deserved. Big up man, good video
Ps: Thank you for the "rOuGuE-LITE" section. That word gives me a lot of internal pain
they act like the word is a secret safe word for "baby game don't play" when it's exactly the opposite. EtG I have yet to finish and i still find it fun and challenging.
This might be the 10th documental I see about the roguelike genre, and I don't think I'm getting any tired of them!
It's almost as if every in-depth explanation videos of roguelikes were a unique experience... with good... replay value...
I might believe that roguelikes are transcending the videogame realm.
My favorite rogue like is Noita, It’s selling point is that every pixel is simulated. It’s a game of a wizard going into cave, collect wands and spells to edit the wands and every play through is different allowing for you to kill yourself in a new original way
Same dude, it's so fucking beautiful and visually stunning, it's just so cool that every pixel counts and the dozens of spell combinations are there,and the Easter eggs and the secrets in the game, it's just perfect.. lol i wrote a paragraph
YESSSSSSSSSSSS I LOVE YOU😘😘😘😘🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️🧡❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Ngl i dislike it due to a major skill issue so that's partly my fault but dying in one shot 54minutes into a run just isn't fun after the first 3 times... imo
@@egg_64.Wait until you get skilled enough to survive for 3+ hours. And still get one shot at the end...
My favourite roguelikes will always be those that WANT you to break them, making Isaac my favourite. The possibility of an uninihibited powertrip, especially hidden behind the possibility of the absolute galaxy-brain strategies you can use to create indinitw item loops or sth like that is just amazing.
Noita fits this bill quite well too
Risk of rain 2
I also like Nuclear Throne, specifically the loops, after 3 to 4 loops my computer starts to die, the same with Issac, so much stuff happening on the screen breaks me completely xD.
Risk of rain 2
To reply to the berlin interpretation part of the video, the reason people still care about the roguelike vs rogueLite discussion is because a lot of people still want to play the games inspired by rogue that are turn-based grid-based RPGs and not modern roguelites with all the action and stuff but because these two types of games are so different yet have the same name, finding new old school roguelikes can be a pain in the ass! These two types of games become more and more different as time advances but if theres no way of differentiating them it becomes a whole mess!
And thats not even mentionning that while you did your research, a lot of roguelite enthusiasts never look into the origins or even try more old school roguelikes even recent ones like rift wizard, golden krone hotel, jupiter hell and path of achra.
"Less than an hour" Scooch hasn't unlocked tainted Cain yet
to the argument made at 10:20: As someone studying games engineering at a university, I think the distinction is not unnecessary but confusing for sure. The key difference of metaprogression and softening up progress loss is a important one to make, since most players that enjoy rogue likes don't really enjoy rogue or actual games without metaprogression. That being said, the Berlin Interpretation is not really the reason for the term rogue-lite to exist, as it doesn't define when a game is a rogue-like, just what a game that would be much like rogue would have. They explicitly claim that none of the items in their list confirm or the lack of them discredit the game of being that genre. But rogue and early rogue-likes, in my opinion, are in fact quite different from the modern rogue-lites, that for simplicity we just group as rogue-likes. Just like not every game with souls and recovering them is a souls-like.
Sorry for this long text, just wanted to share my 2 cents on this
Having played Gunfire Reborn for over 200 hours and it being the first Roguelike I ever "finished" (100% achievements), it made me really happy to see the praise for it. It's such an amazing game ^^
Gunfire Reborn is one of those games that by its description sounds like it’s uninspired and shouldn’t work, but man it really does
@@Evanz111 is it only for pc?
@@ad16 its on mobile too
I just got it on Xbox but it looks like it's not the most recent patch
@@imnotkirasora5288 and is it still good
One Roguelike i saw but wasn't mentioned was Dead Cells, by far my current favorite. It's a 2D platformer roguelike heavily inspired by Castlevania, and one of the most unique games i've played in the genre. The visuals, music and gameplay is all amazing. You should definitely check it out
It’s the only game I’ve ever seen where the silent protagonist flips off an npc. It’s pixelated, of course. The protagonist is always pixelated.
I'm almost entirely certain that vampire survivors created a new genre/subgenre of it's own, as the fundamental gameplay is so *different* from what anyone was used to
"roguelite bullet heaven" they also made deep rock galactic survivor which is pretty similar
Play some classic styled ones like Sil (Based on the Mines of Moria roguelike), Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup (really good fantasy based roguelike with a lot of races), Infra Arcana (Lovecraft fear meter based system), Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead (zombie apocalypse sim roguelike), Caves of Qud (a very good sci-fi roguelike with a deep system). There's learning curves of course but if you simply dedicate like a day to learning the controls of all the key inputs it becomes second nature and you're going to wish a lot of games had this amount of depth because what the key inputs allow to happen. The key inputs allow for having massive amounts of options that you can have access to at a simple press of a key. I actually recommend picking one of these classic styled games and making a video about the depth of the learning curve or how crazy deep the gameplay is with these games. They're amazing games to just relax to because of the turn based nature of it and offers chess like moments of over thinking your next move to survive your runs. Super awesome stuff.
My first roguelike was Dead Cells, and though many other roguelikes have stolen me away from it over the years, it's the one I always pick back up. I'm kinda surprised you didn't mention it in the video, considering it's 5 years old now. But if you haven't played it, you're in for a treat!
What would you say to a side-scrolling action-platformer souls-esque metroidvania roguelike?
You pilot "The Beheaded", a blob of sentient green goo that inhabits and reanimates corpses, through a series of procedurally-generated platform levels filled with enemies, using buttery-smooth platforming and combat controls, including the obligatory Dodge Roll™. Each level contains areas that aren't accessible until you find upgrades in later levels, die, and return in a new run, hence the "metroidvania".
There are tons of weapons to unlock, and each has totally unique mechanics that feel significantly different from the others, leading to massive variety in how The Beheaded's attacks work each run. From long-ranged bows to fast-mashing swords, slow-swinging axes to parrying shields, deployable traps to stat-boosting spells, following pets to explosive grenades, and everything in between (plus plenty of stuff you'd never even think to expect), you're bound to find something that feels just right.
Enemies are all unique as well, forcing you to learn the timing and patterns of every one. Same goes for the bosses. There are (almost) no palette-swaps or functionally identical mobs, and learning how to approach and take down each one is a pleasure.
And I can't talk about Dead Cells without mentioning the difficulty. It's a punishing game, right from the start, and it only gets tougher as you progress. Even the lowest-tier enemies can chunk your health down in a heartbeat if you're not careful, and you will die _a lot_ while you slowly figure out how to not get hit.
Once you _do_ "git gud" and win a run, you're awarded the next difficulty level, which gives access to more paths through the game, more unlocks to grind, higher-quality drops, and new/tougher enemies in each stage. It also takes away a bunch of the healing fountains you likely relied on to get that win, and by the time you reach the highest difficulty settings, you get no extra healing _at all._
It's definitely a hard game, but _oh man_ is it satisfying when you start to "git gud". No other roguelike I've played emphasizes skill over luck quite as much as Dead Cells does. It's fun to "break the game" with crazy synergies in titles like Isaac and Vampire Survivors, but for me, it's way more rewarding when a lucky or OP build is meaningless without the mechanical skill to use it.
So yeah, that's my rant about Dead Cells. If you're a connoisseur of roguelikes, you've gotta add it to your list.
P.S. - It also has tons of great DLC content and consistent updates from the developers, so more than any other roguelike I know of, Dead Cells never gets old.
Bro send help i recently started playing it and can't stop i need that last boss cell send help pls
@@darthchungus9964 If you can beat Dead Cells on 5BC, you made it as a player.
There's no other game out there, none of the From Software games either, that match the hard-but-fair difficulty of Dead Cells 5BC.
My favorite roguelike is Faster Than Light, you have a spaceship and try to get to the end zone and kill the big bad spaceship, you can focus on normal guns, leave your enemies without oxygen, make your troops kamikaze, i love it
Most modern rogue-like's are just rogue-lites, the main difference being that there's minor continued progression between runs in rogue-lites (whether it be direct upgrades or even a wider pool of characters, skills or drops).
Rogue-likes are much more hardcore, but rogue-lites are more rewarding as you feel that there's a sense of progression after each death.
This is one of the cases where the less hardcore of the two usually feels a lot better, but elitests may lean towards disliking rogue-lites as the gradual progression typically makes the game easier the more times you progress through the game.
I don't think "more hardcore" is necessarily correct. I've found Dead Cells to be handily the hardest roguelike I've played, and it has unlocks and upgrades. "Pure" rogue-likes rely entirely on intrinsic skill and knowledge progression to keep you playing, but that can be extremely uneven and lead to accessibility issues. This is exactly what the Dark Souls/Sekiro difficulty and accessibility discussion ran into, as an out-of-genre comparison. Having rewards or upgrades provides additional extrinsic motivation when it feels like your skill progression is at a plateau, and may give you the motivation to get past it by losing another dozen runs.
I would also say that increasing playstyle variety through unlocks should not necessarily be categorized the same as pure upgrades, except in those instances where the unlock is an objectively more powerful item or character withheld initially to scale player power on later runs with an extending boss roster (e.g. BoI). Specialization buff/debuff tradeoffs are a balanced extension of the skill and knowledge progression of a "pure" roguelike, and can provide a smoother learning curve and help break players out of a style rut.
And also, people just like progression systems. Games are made for people to play, so that's an obvious iterative change to make. It's super basic gaming psychology, there's a reason they are everywhere, even where they especially don't belong.
@@cyclic_infinity Agree! Dead Cells on 5BC is probably the hardest game I know. And I played games for 25+ years.
By hard I don't mean BS off-screen type of deaths RNG, but fair difficulty.
From Software games are hard but fair too, but are a walk in the park compared to Dead Cells 5BC.
when starting gaming: "hehe I like roguelikes"
somewhere along the middle: "Competitive games are more fun for me"
maturing as a gamer: "hehe I like roguelikes"
The fact that you can add an update to a roguelike, making a new zone, endboss or items and it gives it like much more replayability is insane, roguelikes always kill it when they add that new extra dlc that literally shifts everything upside down and now you gotta do it all over.
8:20 Over half of my spelunky gameplay consisted of me getting a teleport and teleporting inside a wall
Roguelite is an important term if you truly love roguelikes.
Roguelites is basicly when you can buy sort of upgrades and comeback stronger in the game. Imagine if you had upgrades in Binding of isaac such as "starts with 2 more hearts at the begining" now the game will become easier, not because you got better but at each run you're getting so strong ennemies hit doesn't matter and you went from 3 hitting them to 1 hit anything
The difference is simple and has an major impact on the gameplay, because now the balance team didn't make a balanced game but instead throws you an impossible game, gamebreaking upgrades and expect you to farm thoses upgrades to win
My D&D group agrees with the multiplay scene being criminally underrated. One of our favorite games to play to kill some time before session is Never Split the Party. Pick a class, get assigned a team role, create a ranged ad's clearing god that dies in 2 hits so he needs a alchemist to duplicate bonus health potions every couple rooms and a support to use bombs to keep the tankier enemies at bay or make a tank that walks up and executes low health targets for bonus gold so the team has tons of money for shops. It's so much fun
Man I am a huge fan of roguelike games. Idk something about the style of them makes you fall in love with them. I am glad they are coming back, less go!
For me, being able to play whenever I want however long I want and not missing a thing is its biggest seller
My personal top 10 list of roguelikes goes as follows:
1. Risk of Rain 2
2. Slay the Spire
3. Binding of Isaac
4. FTL
5. Hades
6. Returnal
7. Enter the Gungeon
8. Neon Echo
9. Monster Train
10. One Step from Eden
Edit: Very Honorable mention to Explorers of Time and Darkness
Love the creativity in this video, makes it so incredibly entertaining to watch. Keep it up! On the topic or roguelikes, the fact that it is dominated by indie developers contributes to constant evolution and reimagining of the genre because of both limitations and freedom, potentially making it immortal staple of the industry. Can wait to see what it will evolve into in the future!
Risk of Rain 2 has become a huge favorite of my gaming friend group for exactly the reasons you shared here. All the legendary replayability, humility, jokes, personality, and just heart poured into most indie roguelikes, coupled with the chaotic antics of some of my favorite people all throwing shit at a wall together, nothing comes close. It feels like what oldschool tabletop dungeon crawlers' player characters experience, but it can be any time 4 people have an hour or two to spend fucking around and becoming god instead of having to meet every Thursday at 6pm for a year to reach that point.
I don't think there's a roguelike that does combining multiple items together in a unique and fun way as much as noita
Probably the most customizable game when it comes to how you go about playing it and I love that about it
Great video, first vid I've seen of yours time to go through the catalogue
I was watching this video while waiting for pizza with my family, so in the end when u put the bell icon with the ring soundeffect, my parents thought the pizza was there and my dog flipped out XD, good video i love roguelikes aswell
yoooooo skooch back with the roguelike content, what an absolute gamer
I don't agree with how people keep calling everything with permadeath and procedurally generated maps a roguelike, and it's specially difficult to find traditional roguelikes at the Steam store after everyone categorized their platformer with permadeath as a roguelike.
It has nothing to do with elitism, I would even be at peace if there was a "traditional roguelike" tag to stop confusing both camps, since traditional roguelikes play nothing like modern roguelikes or "roguelites".
You can even see how wildly different every modern roguelike is in this very video, where the only shared commonality is permadeath.
I don't expect to change anyone' mind about the subject, I just wanted to express how I feel about the subject.
Isaac is definitely one of the best
Ima need skooch to start playing Noita, I think he will be pleasantly surprised with the SHEER amount of secrets, hidden combos and differing *completions*
Agreed. I struggle to convince my friends to play Noita cause, well, it's Noita. Finnish arson simulator for masochists. Not to mention the calculations needed for wand building. But Noita is an amazing chaotic game that I see myself going back to over and over.
I like the term Roguelite, it helps me know if the game will have progress out of each run and, therefore, is more grindy.. I believe it has made me choose better what to buy hahahahha
Great vid, as always
Not only that, Roguelite is actually better for the Roguelike genre, because it's the more "new player" friendly game. Yes it introduces grinding somewhat, but it's actually really good for new players to have something if their run fails. I mean, what's better for the new player mindset, to realise that you wasted 30 mins for a failed run and have nothing, or have a 30 mins failed run but you have 10k gold to use on the gameshop?
@@nestorjrlim3938 Yeah, it's definitely more rewarding for the average player to not feel that their time has been wasted by their death.
However, as the original post mentions, roguelites tend to be more grindy as the later content is significantly harder to clear on your first run and difficulty becomes lowered the more you've played through (unlocking stat upgrades or access to new characters/drops).
Both styles appeal to different groups of players, but rogue-lites are typically more accessible to a wider pool of players imo.
@@nestorjrlim3938 Forgot about that, 100% agree
@@nestorjrlim3938 I mean in a roguelike you get "nothing" if your expectation is to win something in-game even if losing the character. From another perspective there's something gained from just playing, knowledge of the game. Not just knowledge about how to win but also about the details of the game, the stories it may contain, the other characters you meet, all the quircks it has to offer (exploration is part of the experience of roguelikes too).
@@rociopaoloni5080 "knowledge about how to win but also about the details of the game, the stories it may contain, the other characters you meet, all the quircks it has to offer " Those things are only ever relevant in the first 100 hours. After a certain point there's really no new knowledge, nor is there anymore content, if you are actually doing everything to find those. And those very things are also a part of the roguelite experience, so basically there's really no advantage of roguelikes over roguelites. It's that permanent reset that's a disadvantage, that some people crave, and imo a really bad genre in gaming. Why should i get punished, should i not be rewarded for my efforts? As they say positive reinforcement is better than punishment.
I really like how the difficulty works in roguelikes, especially the ones with permanent upgrades. The fact that your character will be just slightly more powerful every run means that when you do end up beating the final boss you probably had the most challenging yet perfectly balanced experience for your specific skill level at the time. And you don't even need a difficulty option for that, it's just built into the game.
I think the hard part about designing a roguelike (difficulty wise) is like, how do you make the game continue to be challenging once you've beaten it? Because once you've beaten a roguelike once, the permanent progression system will have the opposite effect as before. The game gets easier and easier every run while you get better and better at it, meaning you will stray further and further away from that optimal difficulty level you just experienced. The best roguelikes have creative ways of solving this problem I think.
I honestly like roguelikes without progression systems because as you learn the game and mechanics you get further and further and each death you can see that progression you made and you know that that was all because you personally got better. the game didn't get easier you only got better.
@@AuroraAce. definitely. I used to prefer that actually. Permanent progression can definitely do more harm than good anyways. If the upgrades are overwhelming or boring (+1% damage) It will feel like a chore to invest in them.
Im playing darkest dungeond 2 and while the upgrades make the game easier, most of them also make the game more interesting by giving you more choices in how you play.
In my head roguelikes are like rogue, including having no elements of progression among runs. Roguelites, however, are like Rogue, but have progression elements among runs in a way that you are not starting anew completely, your accomplishments in past runs unlock skills or weapons for the following ones
I loved that add, ''it's a one plus eleven'' , ''so, twelve?'' , *''it's a one plus eleven''*
I am not done with this video yet, but I hope Skooch should talk about the difference between Roguelike and Roguelite. Roguelite is the baby brother of Roguelike, a much easier experience without the "I did all of that for nothing" that new players tend to have in the genre.
Edit: I swear to god i stopped like 10 seconds before he talked about Roguelike vs Roguelites. But here's where Skooch might be wrong about, everything should fall under one banner of Roguelike, and not make a subgenre of rogue lite. Perma death is an important and key factor of all rogue like, meaning if you're done, then you're done. Roguelite game on the other hand has a New Game+ mechanic in that you have a permanent resource to upgrade a permanent buff to your new games. By definition permanent death should entail a new game without anything relating you to the last game, or any game you have had before. The presence of any permanent resource, gold, diamond, etc. that is earned in a run, just plainly breaks the Roguelike definition. How would permanent death be a permanent death, when the clean new run, isn't even clean, because of the presence of a permanent resource?
i was just getting into isaac thanks to you and albino this video hitted the spot
albino is cracked at isaac T^T
dungeons of dredmoor is what got me into the genre. Underrated gem
Currently Synthetik is the rogue-like that is consuming all of my time. The gun play is soooooo satisfying, and im so excited that a sequel is on the way. Great video!
solid ad read. I probably won't buy another phone or whatever anytime soon but I felt like that segment was paced nicely.
The "1+11 = 12?" Got me man 🤣
This wonderful human knows how to make sponsored ads so entertaining, tired of the regular "this video is sponsored by x cuz x does y and z and thats it thank you"
You are competong with my favorite Colombian CC that also makes ads funny, but I might be bias so thank you for not making mr skip the sponsor part and for making it entertaining ❤️
For another amazing example, there is “the void rained upon her heart”. It’s a SHMUP that is nothing but bosses. The better your performance and risk, the harder the bosses get. You also collect gems to radiate bosses and gifts in order to not only know more, but to also unlock them in quick play mode. I only scratched the surface in all those mechanics it has and it’s getting close to being out of early access, planned to have an ultimate boss rush mode!
I think the distinction of rogue like and roguelite is fine, in fact sometimes I look for one or the other, as if roguelite is a subgenre of roguelike, not meant to be in confrontation with it
15:57 man i would've loved here the bit from Asmongold's first time playing Vampire Survivors shouting "It's $3? JESUS!"
10:00 - I would like to add to that whole point. I think that the "rouge-like" genre has evolved a LOT over the last ~5 years, and adding another word to describe some level of distinction would be a good thing (although rouge-lite is just annoying similar in sound to rouge-like, so I don't like or use it either). Like is XCOM a rouge-like because is has a perma-death mode? I'm definitely not the best person to answer that question (I don't really play the genre a ton), but I think it's a legitimately important question to answer. Gaming has gotten so rich over the last 10 years with the explosion of the indie-scene, I think it's awesome that we get to nerd out about these things :)
I mean if you consider speedrunning a game as a totally different game, then all speedrun attempts are roguelike too. Especially not hit and no death speedruns.
When skooch said “it’s a one plus 11” I was expecting green skooch to nervously stutter out “t…twelve…?”
No roguelike will ever top my love for Explorer of Sky and Shiren the Wanderer.
Playing binding of Isaac started my love for roguelikes and Gunfire Reborn really struck me as exactly what I wanted with an FPS Roguelike
Thank you for the original and fresh content. I've been pretty burnt out from UA-cam so this is a welcome breath of air. If NakeyJakey and Drew Gooden had a baby, this would be the video 😁
That ad joke was so on point! Literal ad on UA-cam right after lol 😂
With this amount of jokes i feel this video is a new genre of roguelike
Seeing gunfire reborn, crab champions, risk of rain 2 and other rougues that I didnt think more people actually played shown is amazing. I love rougue likes.
Getting stronger, trying builds and doing many different paths is addicting.
Also my fav is gunfire reborn
Oh God and spelunky!!
An old AAA Roguelike was the SNES game Lufia II. The Roguelike part was in the Ancient Cave optional minigame.
Just want to shout out some VR Roguelikes that I enjoy a lot.
Cosmodread - Survival horror where you try to repair an infested spaceship to go back home.
Ancient Dungeon - Fantasy dungeon crawler, fun synergies between the items. Voxel gfx. Early access so more to come.
The Light Brigade - WW2 shooter with magic and lots of praying.
Mothergunship: Forge - build a gun, any gun, with random parts found. stationary position but you can move around a little.
Compound - Boomer shooter in vr, not much randomness besides which of the few guns you get and the layout of floors is different. highly addicting still
H3VR (Take n Hold) - High quality gun sim. build a loadout guns based on the time period/character you chose. Defend the designated zone. highly moddable.
Also Risk of Rain 2 and Gunfire Reborn have fantastic VR mods I highly recommend those as well.
I am a simple man. If Skooch recommends a roguelike, I play it. Vampire survivors was *chefs kiss*
now Gunfire reborn? Perfect.
I bought Enter the Gungeon 4 years ago and that was the gateway drug to:
Isaac (100% pre-repentence)
Risk of Rain 2 (100%)
FTL (100%)
Slay the Spire (ascension 16+ x4)
Hades (100%)
Into the Breach (100%)
Spelunky 2 (6 minute speedrun PB)
Don't Starve (way too hard for me lol)
and most recently Risk of Rain Returns
I have been trapped in the rougelike wormhole for 4 years
I just bought enter the gungeon and dont starve which ones are your favorite?
@mahdi-ev9ye
Any of the games I listed are at least 9/10s for their genres so if you know what you're familiar with its easy to find a good one. Hades is a standout as the only roguelike with a proper story and full voice acting and it has similar mechanics to Gungeon
Can we talk about this is the format we needed
Mate i swear the way you set up your jokes is just masterful.
You are simply amazing.
God I love Enter the Gungeon. I've also played an unbelievable amount of its sequel, Exit the Gungeon, as well as Gunfire Reborn, Going Under, Rogue Glitch, and Hades.
I mean I am favorable and follow the Berlin definition not because of elitism but because it's a clear way to differentiate between two different game experiences. One is more gentle while maintaing the allurring aspects you decribe while the other is just like Spelunky, you have no other way but to expierence the absolute loss of everything you gained in-game. It's a good practical distinction imo, despite the phenomenon of using roguelike for everything which is totally normal.
Apart from that I can't agree more with all you say in the video. The roguelike elements are a way more ludic experience for me than most games. Triple A games that I thoroughly enjoyed were usually because the story I felt was alluring, it was the glue that connected everything else in a coherent and fun experience. Smaller games production-wise remind me of what a "game" usually means when we are children, those game IRL you play with others. Also I think the lite experience, or what you call the experience BoI made popular, goes better with the current more grindy style of games. It makes a better engagement imo than the examples you gave of many gacha games or games like MMO where you have to dedicate your life to it like it's work if you dont want to miss half of it.
Imagine a call of duty zombies co-op roguelike, that would be insanely fun.
One of the issue with the term Roguelike is that it really doesn't describe the game well at all. Dwarf Fortress is entirely different from Binding of Issac which is entirely different from FTL which is entirely different to Spelunky, which is entirely different to Project Zomboid, yet they all could be called Roguelike (although Project Zomboid doesn't have randomly generated maps yet, but that is coming soon; still could swap it out for Don't Starve)
Because of this I'd say that it cannot/should not be considered a genre. Rather it's more of a supplementary descriptor.
Aside from that I'd argue Vampire Survivors is not a Roguelike because it doesn't have random levels. In that sense it's no different from an old arcade game like Asteroids. One could also argue that Hades' multiple lives (which I know can be removed _later on)_ makes it not Roguelike either, or else the original Mario and Megaman games should be thrown in there as well.
This is why I think the separate term "Roguelite" makes sense, as it could include common/otherwise-defining features that are not in Rogue such as randomized upgrade choices or persistent unlocks.
as a german i can confirm were very strict in wording everything needs 2 be addressed as precise as possible if its not we just make new words and write it down, our lexicons getting 50 new pages every year . :D wunderbar richtig .
Just got into rougelikes a few months ago. Hades hooked me in, Slay the Spire, Dead Cells and more are keeping me. Love it
Dead Cells is absolutely bonkers how much content there is. almost 300 hours in and I still haven't beaten Dracula, the Queen, or even MET the Giant and I only have 3 Stem Cells lol
"Though Supergiant was making great games like Bastion and Pyre-"
Transistor: ;~;
Best Skooch line ever "If you kill me, and I stay dead. Am I a roguelike?"
Hey skooch, I recommend you a small game called "Magicite". It's a roguelike survival kind of game and its really really fun. You can play it co-op or solo and it's pretty much a typical roguelike but it's hella fun. The game is gorgeous, you can choose to be one of 3 classes. Archer, Mage and like a soldier close range type of guy. It's not like a choice that you get in front of you, it's what armor you make, what tools you use, which special ability you choose to have that determine what you are. There are hella many unlockables and I'd really greatful if you could check this game out. You won't regret it I swear. Btw yes this game is made by the same developers who made Kindergarten 1 and 2
Just on your point with Gunfire Reborn (hadn't heard of it, am going to look into it), Risk of Rain 2 with friends has the same dynamic with items being prioritized for different characters and builds. It doesn't have super strict roles like tank/healer etc but a focused build can be the difference between a win and a loss.
And because you can infinitely stack most items some of those can get insane.
Lmao I remember Mavis Beacon. Loved that reference. And yes I was freaking out. Also the guy who made Spelunky made a favorite metroidvania of mine called Eternal Daughter back in his early days.
Enter the Gungeon was my entryway to the roguelike experience and it too has become my favorite genre of games
This dude dropped mavis beacon on me. Nostalgia hit me like a half-dead goat!
um, you said Torneko fushigi no dungeon is "the first roguelike on consoles"
.
but that came out in 1993.
Fatal Labyrinth released on Genesis in 1990.
yeah, technically, torneko is the first game to be called "mystery dungeon", but fatal labyrinth is extremely similar.
oh my god skooch talking about roguelikes?!?!? and he talks about Gunfire Reborn, one of my favorites I have played with my friends for a long time? this is a dream come true
i tried multiple roguelikes but non of them really stuck with me, until i started dead cells that is
so far, its the only roguelike i can't stop playing
*Slams door open*
We loVe yOu isAAc!
*Breaks down sobbing over The Sad.*
Just wanted to comment about 19:22 . The bunny character in Gunfire doesn't focus on long range, she focuses on high rate of fire to trigger bloom as often as possible, since every 12 bullets triggers it. The thundercat goes off snipers, with most of their abilities giving bonus to snipers.
video good tho
I had subtitles from the start and it said "roblox is such an insanely cool genre for video games"
20:30 "struggle due to a lackof a frontliner", only if you don't yet hit the literal dmg cap of 10.000.000 which i did on the final boss. Was hilarious.
been watching you for several years and this is honestly one of your best videos because it just oozes personality and love and passion
We're in the Latin Curls arc of Skooch and I'm all for it
I’m glad to know that Mavis Beacon was not just a graver dream
One of the best subscribing/notification plugging bits I've ever seen
The tomba reference put a nostalgic smile on my face.
For peeps interested in coop roguelikes I reccomend Ravenswatch. It's basically a diablo-clon coop roguelike with charakters from myths and folktale like little red riding hood or Beowulf as playable heros. They went earlie acces in april I think and got a roadmap for this year with upcoming additions because it's still earlie access
It's couch or online coop? My bf and I like roguelikes/lites in general and the only experience of an online one we have is noita with noita together which it isnt really a coop but a "play along" experience.
5:58 OMFG I PLAYED Mavis beacon typing in school. Legendary game
Super small recommendation here, for the person looking for the absolute most pick up and play, barebones, basic no bullshit no headache roguelike, I’ve had a lot of fun with Metal Unit. It’s never been enough for me to sit down and play for hours but I’ve always enjoyed myself just giving it sometime once or twice a month
Small thing about the sales numbers. Dead Cells has sold 10 million copies as of June 2023. The 5 million of Isaac is an old number from 2015, the most recent I found is 9.9M from July 2018 so it's very likely quite a bit over Dead Cells 10M. Roguelikes are doing great!😃
I've over 1000 hours in Isaac + all the DLC's, and I'm not even close to being done with one save file
I love how when u say the games that shortly came after rogue and the examples u use are mostly the later stafes of the genre 😂, obviously solid video just was funny
As an older gamer, I used to play the original Rogue on the Atari ST in the late 80's when I was a kid. Fell in love with it. I spent hundreds of hours playing it and I still crave that game (but with the graphics not the ASCII).
I always thought of Rouge-lites as a subset of Rouge-likes, just like how a wyvern could be called a dragon but not every dragon is a wyvern