The Thousand Year Door Is a Deeply Flawed Masterpiece
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- Опубліковано 19 чер 2024
- Help Me Make Paper: / danidoyle
(horrible pun I am not sorry)
Paper Mario TTYD Was the third attempt Nintendo made at translating the platformer to turn based combat, and the second outing by Intelligent Systems. Many consider it to be the peak of Mario RPGs, as it evolves both gameplay and story elements from its predecessor. However, it is far from a perfect game, with several commonly know flaws, such as excessive backtracking and a lack of difficulty. In yet another attempt to pivot from Fire Emblem to Paper Mario, I thought I'd take a brief look at one of my favorite games of all time. This ended up being an hour. Oops.
My Video on Paper Mario 64: • Why Paper Mario Succee...
Some Vivian Videos I Liked:
• Vivian's Story and Que... by @LuxyHugs
• Vivian is Undoubtedly ... by @paperdawn
• The Mario Character Yo... by @minty_mari
Subscribe to them, they seem cool.
Music Used
Sea of Stars-Mooncradle (day)
The Thousand Year Door-Rougeport, Sadness and Hapiness, Shadow Sirens Theme, Dooplis Battle, Shadow Sirens Battle, Rawk Hawk Theme, Petalburg, Rougeport Sewers, Smorg Battle, Blast Off To The Moon, Ms Mowz's Theme, Bowser Battle, Smorg Battle
Paper Mario-Oh No A Lost Child What Should We Do, Cold Reception In Shiver City
Paper's Please-Glory To Arstotzka
Fire Emblem Three Houses-The King of Lions
Fire Emblem Awakening-Menace
Timestamps
0:00 Intro
1:39 Story
5:35 Vivian and Transgender Rep
13:53 Battle System
21:14 Partners
33:48 Backtracking
54:09 Final Thoughts and Looking to the Future
Use this for Woke TTYD: gamebanana.com/mods/381562 - Ігри
actually, the remake might remove at least some of backtracking the original had, in the original, to get the Last Stand P badge in Hooktail's Castle you needed to drop down and then climb all the way up from another room, but in the remake, there is actually a pipe there that takes you straight up to where you fell from
That's good to hear!
I definitely notice the "I gotta forgive them they're family!!!!" trope a lot in lots of Japanese media, specifically. I think some basic cultural values there make it a more common sentiment, but it also means I love the rare JP media that doesn't fall in that trap.
Considering how the dialogue has been expanded on in the remake based on what I’ve seen so far, hopefully that issue will be corrected there, especially since I’ve heard that a lot of abusers will pretend to be remorseful in order to lure their victims back into their clutches.
Gotta hard disagree. People can change, cancel culture sucks, all that jazz. Literally nothing wrong with this message.
@@ayoutube5736 I think the problem isn’t that Beldam (seemingly) changed for the better, but rather that it all happened suddenly and off screen, so it doesn’t seem convincing.
I'm honestly more into using Vivian than most. Fiery Jinx is a move I'll stand by, even if Yoshi's Stampede being glitched in the original takes away one of its niches, that being hitting every single target on-screen. The other quirk to it is still valid, though: that thing pierces Defense. Granted there's several bulky enemies that are immune to Fire (Chain Chomps, Buzzy Beetles of all types, Bill Blasters, etc.), but the ones that aren't just get blown out of the water by it. It's also a pretty decent option for keeping the squishier set of adds in the final boss at bay.
Also it's *really* funny seeing how far Vivian's body tail thing will stretch for her to rise and punch something hanging out on the ceiling like a Swoopula.
I always found funny how Vivian simply and suddenly punches in the gut the opponent.
I got a bunch of use out of Vivian in the past, since for a decade+ I took the game's word at face value and only used Stampede when only grounded foes were present.
Of course, with a strong setup, multibounces are usually strong enough to get the job done outside of the occasional ceiling enemy. By the time you have Vivian upgraded, you can also go pick up Spiky Shield, so that's not even a concern.
The discussion about twilight town's backtracking really makes me wish there was more use of the walls you can push and use veil to slip underneath to help the backtracking in the twilight trail like is used for the room Vivian gives you access to in the creepy steeple.
possibly pushing at tree branches to open up a shorter path but without Vivian you can't actually use them, possibly even move one of the item blocks on the trial behind one of these you can see it, but you can't reach it. i think something similar with some cracked walls in the jungle of keelhaul key to open up shortcuts in the jungle so you can not have to do the difficult parkour winding through the jungle, bypass the narrow paths with hard enemies in both cases.
aand the Ms Mowz problem is one you can't really 'fix' without making both her overworld ability and combat moves worth the trouble, because even if you added shortcuts and hidden areas to previous chapters using later partners powers I don't think it'd save the annoying side quests.
The backtracking is sure tiresome, Chapter 5 is a very good example of underground backtracking (the one which isn't very talked about, but when you look at it, you notice how awful it is). I don't know if someone already made a joke about this, but it seems every Paper Mario Chapter 5 has some annoying part to it, 64 with the Yoshi Kids search, Ttyd with this, Super with the long ass code, Sticker Star with Cheep Chomp and Origami King with the unfair game overs.
Fire Emblem 7 is a Deeply Flawed Masterpiece*
Holly shit
TRUE
Common eaturgrns W
Great video and I'm excited for the bug fables review! I have a backer boss in that game :)
Which boss? I love bug fables!
Vivian is my favorite! I really hope she will get her representation in the us version but i doubt it will happen... but she is still my favorite. I love having her out as she has some rare dialogue that hits hard... especially when having to confront her sisters again as well as inside the palace of shadow and against any bosses she diesnt hesitate to amaze. shes so sweet and I love seeing her leave behind her toxic relationshop with her sisters to become a party member. Also she definitely has the most important/relevant connection to the story out of marios partners. Not just her leaving her sisters, but the fact the shadow queen created her and she helped take her down too. Though strangely she doesnt seem to remember much about the Palace of Shadow or the Queen... must be that she might have been a young child when the queen fell or its just been 1000 years and she might have forgotten. She is the best and i cant wait to get her in the remake
the wack part about the TTYD backtracking that surprises me is how while chapter 4's deff the most valid,
people never mention chapter 2's great tree more, since it can be surprisingly easy to get lost in it while searchin for the right jabble hut that proceeds with the story. it doesn't help all of the rooms look the same in the Great Tree.
Chapter 2's technically the 1st instance of major backtracking, to an extent.
since its a maze you can get lost in, alongside needing the punies.
unless you knew the exact area you were in, like say the Solo Obtain Super Boots section that came after the Punies get trapped for example, Chapter 2 can have a surprisingly somewhat comparable amount of backtracking alongside chapter 4.
aside from getting lost, its also mostly due to the punies themselves.
(granted its possible to beat the jabbles w/lowish amount of punies via the intended way with Flurrie)
One very fun thing with Vivian is, if you're not breaking the game with power boosts, against the enemies that create illusory copies of themselves, setting them on fire makes all the duplicates instantly fizzle out at the end of their turn, so they just keep wasting their turns cloning themselves and never actually get to attack. It's a very fun and funny way to neutralize things like Wizzerds, IMHO.
I didn't actually play TTYD until relatively recently, and I quite like it, so that's more evidence it holds up well. I _am_ more tolerant of backtracking and general sluggishness in traversal than most, though -- within the Zelda series, I'm a fan of Wind Waker's sailing (and I'm talking the original, not HD) and Skyward Sword's loftwings. That said, some aspects of TTYD backtracking grated on even _my_ nerves -- particularly having to trek all the way up to Hooktail's chamber and all the way back down again for Ms. Mowz. I'm mostly okay with Twilight Town, at least. It surprises me a little that that is one of the more commonly mentioned instances of problem backtracking when the Keelhaul Key jungle exists.
I’m in the same boat as you. This was one of my first RPG’s, and it stuck with me for years.
The games biggest issue is repetitiveness throughout, however a lot of it is keeping the story flowing & allowing for us to interpret the narrative. Glitz ville is a giant boss gauntlet that slightly gets daunting the more you play through it, but I still had fun playing through it cause of the mystery & the fact I’m into wrestling.
Hi Dani! I really enjoyed your video, thank you for the shoutout (That's how UA-cam alerted me to its existence). TTYD is one of my favorite GameCube games, and I never really minded the backtracking. I haven't played Fire Emblem before, but if this video is anything to go off of, you deserve my sub.
I'm glad you like it, I'm a big fan of your videos/channel too :)
@@DaniDoyle Do you have a discord server btw?
Yes discord.com/invite/8MahW9vj
I think "deeply flawed" is a bit harsh. It implies that there is something fundamentally broken, that its demerits run deep, being engrained to aspects of the product that can't be overlooked. I just think that isn't true. What doesn't work? What is a deep flaw?
Worst part of the game to me is the fact that some areas don't have super interesting level design, they're just hallways.
Never understood the backtracking complaint. The game is very small, and most areas are like 5 screens.
Haven't watched the video yet but I really think the game is like a solid 8/10. Deeply flawed sounds disingenuous and contrarian.
Two of the most prominent instances of backtracking are Chapter 4's Twilight Trail and the trek to the Pirate's Grotto entrance in Chapter 5.
The Twilight Trail spans multiple screens that feature obstacles that make it drag on. Activating and canceling tube mode, the pipe animation, Mario's slow walk speed in the background, using the slow moving paper mode to pass through a gap with enemies either side, more background traversal, going in and out of hole and so on. This is only made worse by the fact that each traversal of the trail has little gameplay between them after the initial Doopliss fight. Nothing about the trail is particularly interesting and, outside of a chance Amazee Dayzee encounter, the battles offer little of value.
The road to the Pirate's Grotto is just two screens long. The first must be traversed from the left to the rightmost edge, along the cliff to the left again, then along the top to exit at the right edge. The second screen is just a straight along the bridge, which is fine to backtrack through. Similarly traversing in the opposite direction through the first area is mostly fine outside the chance of landing on an enemy when dropping from the cliff and getting into a pointless battle. Again the backtracking is aggravated by how little gameplay separates each instance. At most you fight one batch the pathetic ember enemies and have some dialogue. There is even an additional instance of backtracking for first time players who didn't acquire or keep hold of a coconut.
@@turtersvongenbu Hm. Do you just not like playing the game, then? Because it seems that the main complaint is that you don't get to immediately retire and compartmentalize the content. Do you only ever want to see each screen exactly once and forget about it? I thought people loved the world and combat, but it seems when they actually have to interact with both it's suddenly an issue?
@@hypotheticaltapeworm There are far better ways to make an area stick with the player than by demanding them to trudge through it over and over with no variety.
Traversing each area of the Glitz Pit doesn't become tiresome in Chapter 3 due to the constant updates with changing NPC's, dialogue, posters and so on. The entire area uses completely different music after the halfway point to both better set the scene and stop things from becoming stale.
Non of the fights in Chapter 3 are all that mechanically interesting, but they don't need to be. The staging and plot surrounding them give them a greater significance.
Chapter 6 similarly manages to keep its confined space engaging throughout.
One difference to the combat that I don't think you mentioned was the change to Mario's natural HP, FP and BP caps. I found that being able to keep upgrading BP beyond 64's 30 meant that I had even less incentive to upgrade HP and FP. HP plus and FP plus badges no longer being limited can make upgrading those stats on level up feel like a waste.
…. I agree that the chapter 4 backtracking is egregious, and I can accept that by definition, yes there’s a lot of backtracking after that for each chapter. And I do wish you could take multiple quests at once, that would be an awesome quality of life update.
I actually enjoy 90% of the quests. I actively go to the quest board as soon as each chapter ends and do the side quests. Very few of them require going through a the dungeon itself (usually 1 per chapter). I adore this world and its people. I think the only one I actively wait to do later is the mowz quest after the pirate chapter that way I can save a trip get both mowz AND level 2 party members.
I do wish the trouble rewards were a it better. The best it gets are the Game Cards and the cookbook. Given the game already lets you get practically infinite copies of some badges, would there really be any harm in handing one out instead of yet another healing item I have no use for.
I do find the inclusion of postgame troubles a little strange given none of them use areas or characters that wouldn't work just fine beforehand.
@@turtersvongenbu I think the postgame troubles are because they expect you to run straight to the 1,000 year door. And one of them involves going to like floor 64 of the pit I think? If you can get that far down you are more than ready for the final area.
Most of the healing items either help you fill out the recipe chart or give you useful information on how to find/make them for a first time player. The best part is you can get the cookbook DURING chapter 4 because it’s in a chest in the secret area. It’s not an item that spawns because of quest parameters.
@@giraffedragon6110 It's only floor 50 (the one that gets you the Strange Sack). The enemies from floors 41-49 are on par with those of Chapter 6. The quest giver is in Fahr Outpost though.
The other postgame troubles are defeating some normal Boggly Woods enemies and delivering one of 3 easily obtainable items to Bub in Poshley Heights.
There are both troubles that unlock after Chapter 7 and the postgame troubles, so I don't think the devs expecting players to go straight into Chapter 8 quite explains it, since there would be no reason to have two different activation criteria.
@@turtersvongenbu hmmm, yeah you’re right. I had to double check that trouble IS on floor 50. Which is funny because I usually go to floor 50 for the strange sack before chapter 8. I don’t know why some of these aren’t available sooner. The only thing that sort of makes sense is that the Devs WANTED us to come back for the postgame but only if we wanted to. In PM64, there is no postgame. You go back to your last save point. Looking at the rewards, 2 of them are clearly just world building/ character development (the great tree is starting to become a tourist destination but Doe T can’t fight so he needs us to help him. Bub had a fight with his dad and he wants to make up with him.) the last one both hints at even better rewards in the Pit, with exclusive features like a bigger bag, and fills out another recipe in the list and the snow bunny is an item needed to make some of the stronger/obtuse items. (Though the hot sauce is a chapter earlier and actually hard unlocks all recipes remaining at this point).
I love ALL Dani Doyle videos!!!! ❤
Some of the backtracking frustrations are gonna be alleviated in the remake for sure
wtf i literally just beat this game last night, good timing
also you used the same partner textures that i did, nice
also "vivian and bobbery are low tier" damn they were my favorites
low tier doesnt mean unusable or even bad tbh. theyre both very fun. Mouz is the worst partner by a wide mile but IMO shes also the most fun. TBH yoshi is strong but boring, embrace bobbery sweep!
@@DaniDoyleyeah i don't tend to take that stuff super seriously i just thought it was funny to hear juxtaposed to my experience where i found them to be very good
also i just realized you ALSO got the orange yoshi like i did
ok i won't lie i kinda love the 100 i love yous especially with the actual counter of them
Koop's Shell shield deserves a mention for its ability to ruin Bonetail's status effect shenanigans.
It’s alright, honestly. I think I’ll always prefer Paper Mario 64 and Bowsers Inside Story to TTYD any day of the week.
YES! Play Bug Fables!!
Btw good review. I also love TTYD but find its flaws bring down the game a notch on repeat playthroughs. While I believe TTYD is better in concept when compared to Paper Mario 64, I also believe 64 is better in execution. Therefore, I find myself going back to 64 more often than TTYD. Bug Fables comes really close to surpassing 64, but even with that I still think 64 is my favorite.
It is really interesting to compare these games because TTYD & Bug Fables have higher highs than 64, but they also have lower lows (especially TTYD). 64 to this day remains the most consistent game. Without spoiling anything, I'll just say if Bug Fables had more interesting bosses mechanically and had less annoying platforming/puzzles then Bug Fables would easily be my favorite.
Overall though all of these games are great. I'm glad you're taking a deep dive into all of them!
I think the backtracking gets overblown and seems to stem from a desire for linearity. The game doesn't make the worlds as round and branched as they could, but I see it more as reusing the spaces in a way that feels natural. It may not always feel the best when you want to move forward, but revisiting old sections and even going back to enjoy parts of the game you've left behind feels great! And it's normally not that far to walk (she does the part in Hooktail's castle he complains about in like 2 minutes). The criticism is valid, but I hate that it seems to be one of the main sticking points with any complaints against the game. Smaller things like the dialogue really aren't that serious.
Hooktails castle was not a complaint, its an example of how to execute backtracking well. My issue with the excessive backtacking in TTYD is it does not reuse the areas in an interesting way (which I went in depth about in the actual video)
also just FYI i am a woman.
@@DaniDoyle So sorry for the mistake! Fixed that. And it seems you were saying it’s a waste of time and feels like filler and could have felt more worthwhile with more specific integration of new abilities, which I agree with. I know you mainly harked on the main chapter backtracking, but I think the Hooktail’s castle section showcases the same sort of linear route as Chapter 4.
The best and the worst is like in Pokémon. Sticker Star is like X and Y, where the developers use gentrification to make them more digestible after making something too different for audiences at the time (Super and Black and White), which made them bad (the 3DS games really wanted to stick games to their franchises’ rigid definitions, meaning no new unique characters, no secret lore (mostly just revenge story plots), and obviously no fun). HeartGold and SoulSilver is like the Thousand Year Door. So many problems (bad Pokédex selection is equal to the bad backtracking), yet everything else is extremely amazing in story and combat.
finally bug fables. Never played mario rpgs, but i really liked bug fables. It's a great game with a lot of flaws, A LOT, and yet I still remember it very fondly. Curious to see what you'll have to say about it.
My bias seethes in response to this comment.
I was just watching your last week Paper Mario video when I saw you released this one, also I noticed an unlisted video in the playlist that turned out to be this video.
Well, , talking about the Remake [MINOR SPOILERS AHEAD]
There is footage where the hub is way more ordenated in order to be much easier to backtrack on chapters like 7.
They also added a Pipe on Hooktail Castle on the location where a badge was for us to be easier to get back .
Also, maybe is just me, but I feel that the guard on the Remake is way more...generous? Idk I feel it has a much larger window like the modern games.
If thats true that would mean that the superguard could also be buffed, which can be criticised, but lets see.
The only good part about the backtracking in chapter 4 is that you get to grind the Amazy Dazzee for star points!
It's not just implications though, the in-game description given to Vivian as a party member in the OG script directly stated that she is an Otokonoko, which isn't necessarily considered transgender yet there's overlaps between the two definitions. And to be fair the first person pronuon Vivian uses isn't a one-on-one translation to she/her pronuons, certainly アタイ is a pronoun that mostly used by girls for sure, but in the Japanese language the pronouns doesn't work the same as English do. I do think it is fair to say Vivian being transgender since she did consider herself a girl, I just wouldn't go as far as theorizing the 2004 Intelligent Systems folks being miraculously progressive and open-minded since it doesn't seem to be the original intention for IS to structure the gender problem of Vivian to be anything of a social commentary thingy
Worth noting is that everyone in the game but Vivian herself is who refers to her as "He" and "Otokonoko". Vivian herself very much still believes herself to be female. Also the pronoun she uses is mostly used by people in Red-light districts, of which the most notable ones happen to be in Shinjuku, one of the very few places in japan where LGBT identifying people really feel comfortable being themselves out in the open.
Whether or not Intsys was progressive about this topic in 2004 is nebulous, but considering this is the same studio that's been adding same sex relationships into fire emblem since 2015, (And doing a better job of it recently might I add), and has had an openly gay character here or there since then. (Leon from Shadows of Valentia if you want a direct example), I think we can at the very least say that they've made some sort of progress on issues similar to this in the years since 2004 at the very least.
Vivian reminds me of Yohane Bonaventura.
Japan has all kinds of flavour toward characters,a society with a deep artistic sense. In the west there is the tendency to extravert things,rather than leaving them at the right frequency.
A culture where the term you use to refer to yourself add another layer to the dialogue. This kind of roles one takes in society is not necessarily a representation of their inner self.
I
Bringle mentioned!!!!
You misspelled Masterpiece in the thumbnail, only here to say that.
D'oh. I'll fix it when I get home
i personally agree with all of your issues but saying it’s “deeply flawed” is a bit much, because that makes me think of a game that is fundamentally flawed in most aspects of the entire play through like sonic 06 or something of that regard, but i must admit i very much dislike the backtracking 😅 still my all time favorite mario game and favorite rpg of all time
THIS IS NOT SONIC! 😭😭
its woke sonic
Deeeeply flawed? I’ll have to watch and find out how justified the adjective is. Definitely flawed. Will reply as my follow up 🤨
flawwed because its too woke
@@HillaryClinton9-11 so now yall losers are calling the og woke, fuck yall alex jones wannabes
the woke pronounce have invaded mario (he/him mario)
The flaws it has are deep, but the game in the whole is not so deeply flawed. Solid video as usual.
If the flaws are deep, that's just another way of phrasing "deeply flawed". You're welcome to disagree with my feelings on the game (if you don't think the flaws are deep that's valid), as opinions are not facts, but policing word choice is kinda a weird line to draw.
If you’re gonna mention story, I feel it’s at least worth mentioning super paper mario in the future.
Some of the annoying bits in the PM series - the general white sequence, twilight trail, Jasperoid’s “please” in 5-1, really make a first play more memorable. So even they serve purpose imo.
I think SPM’s overarching plot aspect is probably one of the strongest, but within-chapter/character plots are also fairly solid.
Imo, trying to retcon a character’s personality after the fact sometimes feels cheap. Beldam’s redemption felt tacked on, and while not entirely similar, Luvbi’s return after the story.
Not everything need have a “happy ending” for a story.
It would be nice to see if Nintendo has the balls to include the term “transgender” in their games. I think IS is fairly progressive in their LGBTQ representation (far from perfect, but relatively for Japan imo), so I have hope.
Yeah, I will be tackling SPM at some point in the future because I have a lot to say about it, its in the weird place of having one of the best stories I've played surrounded by some of the worst (in my opinion) gameplay. I unfortunately lost almost all my SPM footage, which means the review would require a new playthrough, and therefore will probably be a whole before I tackle it
As for TTYD’s battle system…
Personally, I like unnecessary RNG. From a casual standpoint, a Boo’s sheet can give a lot of excitement and force on-the-spot planning. I like unfair things :)
And I love it when the bosses use the audience to their advantage. Feels kinda meta.
And yeah, Veil is far inferior to Outta Sight, which basically gives Mario an extra action.
Also fun meme strategies are what I live for. It’s hard to get dodge mario going, unless you spend hours beating up spanias… but it’s fun and that’s what matters
looking forward to it!
Personally, I don’t think SPM had very bad gameplay, just a bit confusing when they Had The Formula right there.
Story more than makes up for it imo.
I played TTYD a few months ago, but the main thing that stopped me from enjoying the game was not knowing where to go. Once it happened a few times in a row I just quit. In my old gamer age (23, yes I did know him, we went screaming at pterodactyls a few times) I don't really have the patience for that and it makes me a bit sad.
I had absolutely no issue progressing the game when I first played it as a child. The only obstacle in the game that might be a bit difficult to figure out is buying a few POW blocks to get through the fortresses in Petal Meadows, but even then, the game is pretty linear.
I highly recommend you try the game again. It's an RPG, exploration simply comes with experience.
Its safe to say i hate ttyd
The original (ive been waiting months to say this joke)
As a trans woman, Vivian is one of my favorite Mario characters. I'm happy to see that the remake's localization seems to be leaning into it.
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did koops have on the gay pride flag in the beginning of this video?
The Pan flag, yes.
gamebanana.com/mods/381562
@@DaniDoyle CANON 💖💛💙
@@DaniDoyle Thought it was the transmasc flag cause didn't really get a good look at it. All I saw was the pink and blue.
Look I'm a trans girl but I think having an entire section on Vivian's identity was unnecessary. I never hear people talk about Vivian as a character anymore only gender debates and that is sad. Vivian potentially being trans was never why I liked her it's nice and I appreciate it but it was never a factor in why I liked her. I want people to actually talk about things besides her identity for once.
It makes the character feel one note
If you think that a character being queer makes them one note, I would reflect on what makes you feel that way. Vivian's queer undertones add to the other likable parts of her character, not subtract from it, as her gender journey and evil -> good journey parallel each other.
@@DaniDoyle it's just getting repetitive I am trans and I appreciate the representation but I am getting sick of people talking about nothing else about Vivian
I don't like being seen as just a trans girl I am more than my identity and that's why this bothers me
Vivian deserves to be seen as more than just the trans one
Even before i knew she was trans, Vivian was my favorite partner from this game; she's got such a neat aesthetic and Veil is a fun ability. Glad to see she's getting some love! :)
I think even if Nintendo doesn’t want to be explicit about Vivian being trans, they could at least imply it more strongly. Maybe they could have the guidebook refer to her with male pronouns and have Goombella notice how that isn’t right
I do not think misgendeirng a trans character is a good way to "Hint at" representation.
@@DaniDoyle good point, I suppose I hadn’t thought than one through
Cringe
Thanks for your algorithm boosting comment, I love hearing from fans 💕
@@DaniDoyle ur mother
more like woke mario