@@tomrobinson2914 I agree: the amount of engineering that goes into a mobo is outrageous, and they're all so good now (that wasn't true 20 or more years ago). Additionally, Intel externalized the prices for their chipsets to keep CPU prices more in line with AMD.
While on the one hand they try to make CPUs more efficient and power saving, on the other hand they create electronic junk by mandating new chipsets and motherboards for these CPUs every year, nobody can explain to me that the production of these motherboards is extremely costly, but that at the same time they have more than enough money to design and produce a whole series of new boards every year, of which many remain on the shelves and are never sold, for $699 you can build a whole PC.
Yeah totally agree any enthusiast mobo should be avoided for normal users. He even states you can get similar performance with lower tier mobos. What I hate is them removing the number display for debugging errors. They must cost 20p to put on there
Idiot consumers are what drive the price. Nobody is getting ripped off because it is a voluntary transaction for a known product. Now LG does rip off customers, but that is more about customer service dark patterns and deliberately faulty materials with substantially reduced lifespans.
I am having a hard time getting excited for a motherboard, when I can get an AM5 motherboard +CPU +32GB RAM for a similar price. But I do get excited when a new video from my favourite PC janitor drops 😊
I don’t know that sacrificing so much latency for (admittedly very impressive) bandwidth is worth it, though. A huge amount of cycles are already wasted waiting for memory at normal latencies, making this feel like some sort of inverse 3D V-Cache.
that's a matter of tuning more than anything else, minumum latency for a given kit is usually a fixed value in ns and then the timings just scale with the clock
starfield proves it as wukong take advantage intel latest cpu that peform better since games are over 100gb in storage in m2 drives...another thing...ray tracing games need lot of bandwidth and full core logic to process wider bits than splitting with smt that hurt all Ray tracing performance
Maybe not for games and random access. If you are processing a stream of sequential data then latency and even L2/L3 cache doesn't really matter and you need to transfer as much data as the CPU can eat or produce.
Thank you. Finally some talk that makes sense. CUDIMM's and pointing out that 1440p and 4k where the use is the performance is good. 8 pin power I think needs more explanation. Thank you. MSI ACE has more DIMM slots and only slightly lower support if you want 10G for example but both I think only has the high RAM speeds when only two DIMM are installed. My take is that because the 285K was only a paper launch and rumours now put the Battlemage to be month from now that we might see some changes for the 285K to open more possibilities maybe. It seems creators like you got the job to point out what is needed and the initial launch was done in very safe way. I see PCIe 5.0 direct access to CPU as REBAR on steroids, CUDIMM/285K lifting the CPU, APO for ARC, strong E Cores and no Hyper-Threading Technology. To me this indicates a very strong all INTEL system with Battlemage.
Sure... that board might "unlock Core Ultra 9 performance", but at these prices? You can get a cheaper X870 board and a 9800X3D and likely get equal or better performance. As consumers, it would be better for everyone if we sent a clear message to these companies that inflating prices exponentially for features that should be basic across the product stack is entirely unacceptable.
Holup, 1949 single-core in Geekbench 6.3? It can't be right, my 5800X3D marks 2188 in the same version (albeit I'm running W10 still). I checked on Tom's Hardware review and they got 3431/23322 in GB6, full 24 cores and CUDIMM. So either you've got an issue with your chip, or (and I suspect it's the latter) you put on screen the results with only the E-cores enabled. If that's the latter, I agree with your statement about the E-cores. Between Zen 2 and 3 performance in ST, yet still achieving Raptor-Lake Core i9 level of MT performance on just 16 cores is crazy good.
I'm still using a 4770k with a 2070 super, should I go for a 265k? I do some 1080p gaming (maybe 4k in the futur) , vmware sandbox, 3d modeling (solidworks, unreal) and photo editing.
Also, AMD's 9800x3D is much better in games, and most other general purpose applications. Depending on how deep you're planning to go with Solidworks and Blender, and depending on where you're workflow is bottlenecked, Threadripper or Xeon 6 with a beefh GPU could also make sense for a workstation setup.
@@ChristopherGoggans Yeah my time is like 40%gaming/60% other, I need to see how the 9900x3D will be performing when released. I know the 9800x3D is very nice for gaming. I think it's worth waiting a couple of month before jumping in a brand new setup.
USB controllers struggle with cold temperatures that the board is subject to in sub-ambient overclocking with LN2 and LH. PS/2 doesn't have this issue so keyboard and mouse control isn't lost.
what i don't get is why are there never some of these insane 2 dimm boards for amd? i'm on a x870e taichi light rn and they advertise it withb up to 8200mhz, which it does boot but is impossible to stabilize, maybe its my 9950x but i kinda doubt it, even tho buildzoid was saying his 9950x is impossible to stabilize 8000 on as well.. idk i still think better boards would help immensely
Here is a great interview Intel's VP and GM, Client AI & Technical Marketing, Robert Hallock. He acknowledges the problems of Arrow Lake and hints that these are solved pretty soon. Intel's Hallock On Arrow Lake Core Ultra 200S Processor Performance Fixes ua-cam.com/video/P2OHRH7221w/v-deo.html
@@lharsay Yes but the interposer on intel chips takes up more area, maybe, and in any event and this is all really about Intel's bottom line. The got their coffee back.
There is nothing to save. Motherboard vendors need to prepare themselves for producing cheaper motherboards. Intel has to cut prices next year to keep the sales to an acceptable level. So garbage products will be sold for even less. Ideally a motherboard should cost half of what a high-end CPU costs. 285K dropping below 500 then motherboard vendors should aim for 250 dollar. That's for a capable mid-range Z890 product without any serious compromises.
Hello, thank you, but I think that this BIOS is more difficult than the Z790 boards. Why did they do this? It is not development at all. The BIOS is complicated.
USB controllers struggle with cold temperatures that the board is subject to in sub-ambient overclocking with LN2 and LH. PS/2 doesn't have this issue so keyboard and mouse control isn't lost.
Well, that's a far too expensive bit of kit for me and though I'd prefer if I had the dosh to buy it I'd probably not bother as bang for the buck metric is pretty low. Perhaps if I had the money I'd not care but more fool my imaginary better off me.
If you are not getting 64-68ns mem latency on the ARL, then you don't know what you are doing. it's achievable with any good kit of Hynix A-die 2x16gb overclocked to 8000-8400, like Patriot viper xtreme 5 2x16 7600 $99 Giveaway motherboard to me, it's useless for you anyway
Intel really went all in on their bet with AI, I guess it will take time for people to write software that utilizes their NPUs before we know if it will pay off for them and it seems that until that ecosystem is really thriving, this bet will be hurting Intel competitively. personally am excited to get my hands on one of those chips and start building homebrew AI (Augmented Intelligence) solutions😇
USB4 and 5Gb doesn't taste like a new generation of anything. At the very least, for next gen mobo I would expect: - 10Gb ethernet (now that workstations class machines start at 25Gb (Nvidia/Mellanox..,) then 10Gb should be PC territory now. - USB4 is not a novelty, and it's Thunderbolt 4 parent is a Jurassic standard. At the very least we want Thunderbolt 5 or Oculink x8. - Where is the extra PCIe slot? this is a new generation with more lanes, right? - For a next gen, are we really going to keep the bastard 24pin power connector again (plus the 8pin CPU power) invented by the ATX Cromagnons? A true next gen mobo should solve the rat nest of power cables problem. Please Intel let the troglodite motherboard.designs die once and for all and give us something truly new, otherwise please go and close the door when you exit
More of a mobo and case thing but just a layout that flows air straight through the DIMMs and heatsinks, somewhat similar to a rack server, would be great. Current ATX boxes are absurdly bad for efficient cooling which is why everyone stacks on a dozen giant fans. (Some of this is due to the RGB bois putting fashion over function, but ATX is a poor foundation anyway.)
@mytech6779 I don't agree. The server cooling formula works fine, but it is at the cost of noise (which is irrelevant in a data center). A better way to solve it at home, in a common room, is the open frame formula. Enclosures create a cooling problem that didn't exist, best case is no case.
@@javiej Both of those statements are ill founded. Noise comes from the specific fans and requirement for rack space efficiency, it has nothing to do with the flow through case design. An open air board is certainly better than a bad case and may be sufficient for low power density hardware but it is not the most efficient cooling solution for power-dense components. Even aircraft engines are enclosed in shrouds to control the airflow around the cylinders and exhaust components for more efficient cooling with minimal added drag (aka fan power in the computer situation.). Then enclosed cases also protect against physical impacts/spills, and reduce dust buildup (dust may be less important)
@@mytech6779No. I work in the PC industry and I have built many open frame PCs (or removed their cases), both big and small, and I never got better performance with the closed versions, only similar in the best case. And for your info open frame doesn't mean no cooling, not at all: - Modern (GeForce) GPUs are perfectly cooled by its own heat sink and it's own fans, which nowadays are ALWAYS oversized and oveengineered (the main reason for that is to reduce density to prevent the server market using consumer units, but that is something for another day..., and secondly to reduce noise ). - The CPU needs a proper cooler with it's own fan, but that is no different than closed versions,.you can use exactly the same models. And logically the bigger the better, as even if extra blade size is not necessary it helps to reduce noise. But when you put all that inside a case, you create a ventilation problem that wasn't there, and in most cases yo will also send airflow passing by little holes trough nearby panels which creates extra noise. So best case is no case. It would be different for antique PCie cards that really needed extra airflow, but not for modern PC parts. Even nvme drives can have their own little fans without the need for case airflow. If you don't believe me, just see how most of the big UA-camrs are benchmarking new GPUs and new CPUs. Most of them use open rigs. And no, pets and kids are not a excuse, I have both and they never introduce their paws or fingers in the fans. They are innocent but not idiots. But if you want extra precaution there are circular grill attachments for that.
That was my favourite line of the day: "Taking your hands into your own life."
I paused and went back, questioning my own potential dyslexia
You know motherboard vendors are ripping us off with their prices.
@@tomrobinson2914 I agree: the amount of engineering that goes into a mobo is outrageous, and they're all so good now (that wasn't true 20 or more years ago). Additionally, Intel externalized the prices for their chipsets to keep CPU prices more in line with AMD.
While on the one hand they try to make CPUs more efficient and power saving, on the other hand they create electronic junk by mandating new chipsets and motherboards for these CPUs every year, nobody can explain to me that the production of these motherboards is extremely costly, but that at the same time they have more than enough money to design and produce a whole series of new boards every year, of which many remain on the shelves and are never sold, for $699 you can build a whole PC.
Yeah totally agree any enthusiast mobo should be avoided for normal users. He even states you can get similar performance with lower tier mobos. What I hate is them removing the number display for debugging errors. They must cost 20p to put on there
Nothing can save Intel. 😢
Idiot consumers are what drive the price. Nobody is getting ripped off because it is a voluntary transaction for a known product.
Now LG does rip off customers, but that is more about customer service dark patterns and deliberately faulty materials with substantially reduced lifespans.
I am having a hard time getting excited for a motherboard, when I can get an AM5 motherboard +CPU +32GB RAM for a similar price.
But I do get excited when a new video from my favourite PC janitor drops 😊
I don’t know that sacrificing so much latency for (admittedly very impressive) bandwidth is worth it, though. A huge amount of cycles are already wasted waiting for memory at normal latencies, making this feel like some sort of inverse 3D V-Cache.
that's a matter of tuning more than anything else, minumum latency for a given kit is usually a fixed value in ns and then the timings just scale with the clock
starfield proves it as wukong take advantage intel latest cpu that peform better since games are over 100gb in storage in m2 drives...another thing...ray tracing games need lot of bandwidth and full core logic to process wider bits than splitting with smt that hurt all Ray tracing performance
Maybe not for games and random access.
If you are processing a stream of sequential data then latency and even L2/L3 cache doesn't really matter and you need to transfer as much data as the CPU can eat or produce.
Man, Intel has turned into Chrysler circa 1983.
Wow. 😂
this msi board alone makes arrowlake interesting ❤
Thank you. Finally some talk that makes sense. CUDIMM's and pointing out that 1440p and 4k where the use is the performance is good. 8 pin power I think needs more explanation. Thank you.
MSI ACE has more DIMM slots and only slightly lower support if you want 10G for example but both I think only has the high RAM speeds when only two DIMM are installed.
My take is that because the 285K was only a paper launch and rumours now put the Battlemage to be month from now that we might see some changes for the 285K to open more possibilities maybe. It seems creators like you got the job to point out what is needed and the initial launch was done in very safe way.
I see PCIe 5.0 direct access to CPU as REBAR on steroids, CUDIMM/285K lifting the CPU, APO for ARC, strong E Cores and no Hyper-Threading Technology. To me this indicates a very strong all INTEL system with Battlemage.
Thank you, Wendellman! 👍🏼
Wendell, what’s the 19v battery that you have hanging used for?
Sure... that board might "unlock Core Ultra 9 performance", but at these prices? You can get a cheaper X870 board and a 9800X3D and likely get equal or better performance. As consumers, it would be better for everyone if we sent a clear message to these companies that inflating prices exponentially for features that should be basic across the product stack is entirely unacceptable.
hardware unboxed found the 9800x3d to be 35% faster than 285k average in 14 games at 1080p. "equal or better performance" is greatly under selling it
Holup, 1949 single-core in Geekbench 6.3? It can't be right, my 5800X3D marks 2188 in the same version (albeit I'm running W10 still).
I checked on Tom's Hardware review and they got 3431/23322 in GB6, full 24 cores and CUDIMM.
So either you've got an issue with your chip, or (and I suspect it's the latter) you put on screen the results with only the E-cores enabled.
If that's the latter, I agree with your statement about the E-cores. Between Zen 2 and 3 performance in ST, yet still achieving Raptor-Lake Core i9 level of MT performance on just 16 cores is crazy good.
@Level1Techs, is this a good idea for something like Proxmox ?
Come on Intel, you can do it!
Did you test with newest bios that fixes stuff
Good video, sick of the videos where they don’t have the right memory and are slamming arrow lake
Such a nice motherboard, wish they made an AMD version of this.
I thought something had scratched my monitor but your monitor instead lol.
I'm still using a 4770k with a 2070 super, should I go for a 265k? I do some 1080p gaming (maybe 4k in the futur) , vmware sandbox, 3d modeling (solidworks, unreal) and photo editing.
Wait a few months for prices to settle.
Also, AMD's 9800x3D is much better in games, and most other general purpose applications. Depending on how deep you're planning to go with Solidworks and Blender, and depending on where you're workflow is bottlenecked, Threadripper or Xeon 6 with a beefh GPU could also make sense for a workstation setup.
@@ChristopherGoggans Yeah my time is like 40%gaming/60% other, I need to see how the 9900x3D will be performing when released. I know the 9800x3D is very nice for gaming. I think it's worth waiting a couple of month before jumping in a brand new setup.
Really Wendell? This is the fastest ddr5 board? What about the asrock OCF
And where is thunderbolt 5 ?
Where has the Unify been for the past few launches? Best MSI motherboard series and they keep hiding it
Does PS2 ports give any advantage over USB for competitive gaming?
No
It's for overclocking where USB can stop working.
USB controllers struggle with cold temperatures that the board is subject to in sub-ambient overclocking with LN2 and LH. PS/2 doesn't have this issue so keyboard and mouse control isn't lost.
what i don't get is why are there never some of these insane 2 dimm boards for amd? i'm on a x870e taichi light rn and they advertise it withb up to 8200mhz, which it does boot but is impossible to stabilize, maybe its my 9950x but i kinda doubt it, even tho buildzoid was saying his 9950x is impossible to stabilize 8000 on as well.. idk i still think better boards would help immensely
AMD still beats it lol.
& will be much, much easier to OC.
Here is a great interview Intel's VP and GM, Client AI & Technical Marketing, Robert Hallock. He acknowledges the problems of Arrow Lake and hints that these are solved pretty soon. Intel's Hallock On Arrow Lake Core Ultra 200S Processor Performance Fixes ua-cam.com/video/P2OHRH7221w/v-deo.html
You should all be buying Intel chips to save American semiconductor manufacturing. Failing that, someone buy me a 5700x3d!
The 5700X3D has more American made silicon than Core Ultra 200 since the I/O die on that chip is still on Global Foundries 12nm.
@@lharsay Yes but the interposer on intel chips takes up more area, maybe, and in any event and this is all really about Intel's bottom line. The got their coffee back.
OK, memory bandwidth and latency are better,
but where are the benchmark numbers ?
Beyond a passing mention of Tomb Raider ?
Intel fanboy here and I’ll pass on intel until the next socket.
It wouldn't hurt if you swap to AMD. Then you can experience if your fanboy-ism is justified ;)
There is nothing to save. Motherboard vendors need to prepare themselves for producing cheaper motherboards. Intel has to cut prices next year to keep the sales to an acceptable level.
So garbage products will be sold for even less. Ideally a motherboard should cost half of what a high-end CPU costs. 285K dropping below 500 then motherboard vendors should aim for 250 dollar. That's for a capable mid-range Z890 product without any serious compromises.
Hello, thank you, but I think that this BIOS is more difficult than the Z790 boards. Why did they do this? It is not development at all. The BIOS is complicated.
😎👍
9800x3d, maybe Wendell hasn't heard? I kid i kid:)
You can't save something that is already dead
well, that complete depends on your necromancy skill.
people thought zen1 is dead back then
: Make MSI do an AMD Version of this again. I need the AM5 version of it :D
AM5 with 9800X3D takes 2 software setting changes will PBO to 5.5Ghz without any problem. No E-core to worry about!
@@tringuyen7519 That's good to hear :) I'm waiting for the 12 core version with x3D and until then I need a nice board for overclocking RAM, too.
ps2 ports are because those peripherals could possibly be faster, right? it's some sort of niche gaming thing?
Overclocking...
USB controllers struggle with cold temperatures that the board is subject to in sub-ambient overclocking with LN2 and LH. PS/2 doesn't have this issue so keyboard and mouse control isn't lost.
5 Gigabit land, why bother? 1g or 10g. No 2.5 or 5. Who sets the home system to utilize only 2.5g?
Maybe too early but did it save the Intel Ultra 9?
Well, that's a far too expensive bit of kit for me and though I'd prefer if I had the dosh to buy it I'd probably not bother as bang for the buck metric is pretty low. Perhaps if I had the money I'd not care but more fool my imaginary better off me.
the X stands for the dead platform
faster than z890 tachyon?
If you are not getting 64-68ns mem latency on the ARL, then you don't know what you are doing.
it's achievable with any good kit of Hynix A-die 2x16gb overclocked to 8000-8400, like Patriot viper xtreme 5 2x16 7600 $99
Giveaway motherboard to me, it's useless for you anyway
does anyone have the actual url to the website mentioned at ua-cam.com/video/c80r_4Inqng/v-deo.html?
Skatterbencher!!!!!!!!!!!!
What a disappointing there is no x870e unify-x.
not much point unless you're running an apu because fclk is always the limiting factor on memory performance
@ 2CCD zen 5 can saturate 8000MT/s. You are right, not the single CCD ones.
yes! Or just the regular Unify. It's my favorite MSI board (have a Z590 and B550 and would like X870E or Z890 too)
Seems like a waste of parts for such a crappy platform.
why does a non overcloker have this board ? advising us to lower the frequency on the cores cause hes overcloking with aio
Intel really went all in on their bet with AI, I guess it will take time for people to write software that utilizes their NPUs before we know if it will pay off for them
and it seems that until that ecosystem is really thriving, this bet will be hurting Intel competitively.
personally am excited to get my hands on one of those chips and start building homebrew AI (Augmented Intelligence) solutions😇
USB4 and 5Gb doesn't taste like a new generation of anything. At the very least, for next gen mobo I would expect:
- 10Gb ethernet (now that workstations class machines start at 25Gb (Nvidia/Mellanox..,) then 10Gb should be PC territory now.
- USB4 is not a novelty, and it's Thunderbolt 4 parent is a Jurassic standard. At the very least we want Thunderbolt 5 or Oculink x8.
- Where is the extra PCIe slot? this is a new generation with more lanes, right?
- For a next gen, are we really going to keep the bastard 24pin power connector again (plus the 8pin CPU power) invented by the ATX Cromagnons? A true next gen mobo should solve the rat nest of power cables problem. Please Intel let the troglodite motherboard.designs die once and for all and give us something truly new, otherwise please go and close the door when you exit
More of a mobo and case thing but just a layout that flows air straight through the DIMMs and heatsinks, somewhat similar to a rack server, would be great. Current ATX boxes are absurdly bad for efficient cooling which is why everyone stacks on a dozen giant fans. (Some of this is due to the RGB bois putting fashion over function, but ATX is a poor foundation anyway.)
@mytech6779 I don't agree. The server cooling formula works fine, but it is at the cost of noise (which is irrelevant in a data center). A better way to solve it at home, in a common room, is the open frame formula. Enclosures create a cooling problem that didn't exist, best case is no case.
@@javiej Both of those statements are ill founded. Noise comes from the specific fans and requirement for rack space efficiency, it has nothing to do with the flow through case design.
An open air board is certainly better than a bad case and may be sufficient for low power density hardware but it is not the most efficient cooling solution for power-dense components. Even aircraft engines are enclosed in shrouds to control the airflow around the cylinders and exhaust components for more efficient cooling with minimal added drag (aka fan power in the computer situation.).
Then enclosed cases also protect against physical impacts/spills, and reduce dust buildup (dust may be less important)
@@javiej Even with a case less board, the ATX layout is bad for natural convection, especially when populated with one or more PCI cards.
@@mytech6779No. I work in the PC industry and I have built many open frame PCs (or removed their cases), both big and small, and I never got better performance with the closed versions, only similar in the best case. And for your info open frame doesn't mean no cooling, not at all:
- Modern (GeForce) GPUs are perfectly cooled by its own heat sink and it's own fans, which nowadays are ALWAYS oversized and oveengineered (the main reason for that is to reduce density to prevent the server market using consumer units, but that is something for another day..., and secondly to reduce noise ).
- The CPU needs a proper cooler with it's own fan, but that is no different than closed versions,.you can use exactly the same models. And logically the bigger the better, as even if extra blade size is not necessary it helps to reduce noise.
But when you put all that inside a case, you create a ventilation problem that wasn't there, and in most cases yo will also send airflow passing by little holes trough nearby panels which creates extra noise.
So best case is no case. It would be different for antique PCie cards that really needed extra airflow, but not for modern PC parts. Even nvme drives can have their own little fans without the need for case airflow.
If you don't believe me, just see how most of the big UA-camrs are benchmarking new GPUs and new CPUs. Most of them use open rigs.
And no, pets and kids are not a excuse, I have both and they never introduce their paws or fingers in the fans. They are innocent but not idiots. But if you want extra precaution there are circular grill attachments for that.
10:47 I apologize dear sir but I can barely see the numbers from here even in 4K, could you improve the situation somehow next time please
can x3d do raytracing in 4k ? is new meme for intel to use in their new slogan