The controversy in birth order research
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
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Sources:
Sulloway, Frank J. Born to Rebel: Birth Order, Family Dynamics, and Creative Lives. New York: Pantheon,1996 First edition. amzn.to/1MpUPiu
Damian, R.I. and Roberts, B.W. “Settling the debate on birth order and personality.” The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. October, 2015. doi:10.1073/pnas.151906411
Rohrer, Julia, Boris Egloff and Stefan C Schmukle, “Examining the effects of birth order on personality.” October, 2015.
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That skit was fantastic lmao
Does it influence it? yes. Does it determine it? No. It’s just one factor that helps determines who you are.
Clusters of environmental trends that tend to cluster around "first born" "second born" etc.
Different genetic and social pressures are going to increase or decrease any of those individual factors importance in shaping that person.
Some families have really strong leaders in their natural parents and the "third parent" effect of having an older child to help with the younger ones is mitigated.
Single mother with three boys, five years or more between the oldest and the others? He's gonna be working and raising his brothers in a way that would be alien to other "first born".
But a disabled first born and a middle child taking on that role would have FAR more effect on the second oldest than any of the soft users of effects are likely to shove them into the "second born" typical I would assume
i do agree overall with what you are explaining though
Agree!
I just don't believe anyone is born angry
Wonder what characteristics he would attribute to the 15th child? 😂😅😂
My 10th grade biology teacher mentioned some of these birth order studies back in the 80s. I remember him saying something about 3rd child and I asked him if it applied to each multiple of 3 (the 6th, the 9th, the 12th). He laughed and told me that I should volunteer for that study.
Damn, Dr Ana brought up satire, she’s becoming a real youtuber 🥲 so proud
Bro should have been a salesman instead
I've anticdotally opposed when anyone says "it's because you're the youngest" to me. My sister is the eldest and, until recent, was irresponsible, not like a parent, unclean, untidy and basically held the opposite of every trait people claim eldest children to have. She has gotten her life together and I'm proud of her... but yeah... no.
I think the eldest child is in a unique position because their parents practice on the first child. The eldest child sees the parents become confident, relaxed, and maybe even happier with the children that follow. The younger children don't know anything different from the parents they have.
This Sulloway guy sounds like a real academic professional 😅😒
As an only child, I'd love a follow up video - are the stereotypes about us supported by science?
My gut says no - I've met a lot of other only children over the years, and very few of us fit the stereotype of spoiled or weird. I mean, listen, *I'M* spoiled and weird, yes, but not all of us are 😂
I wouldnt say that only children are spoiled or weird. I WOULD say they are unforgiving, horrible at compromise, are very self aware and secure in their strengths, and often totally clueless of their weaknesses.
@@Pomagranite167 I mean nobody is entitled to your forgiveness. Nor should you spend your only life in series of unhappy circumstances if healthy ones where everyone's happy are not available.
That last part is true. My half-brothers grew up with their abusive father. The middle brother to after his dad. My nephew has an issue. Just gets screamed at. And it breaks me to see a child with no understanding, being ridiculed. Because his dad was the same.😢 My youngest brother on the other hand said nope to taking after his dad. He is about to be a father him self with a girl. I can already tell she will have a better mental health state than my other nephew.
OMG. I have been thinking about this for months. Im so glad I got to hear your opinion on it. ❤
A good thing that you exemplified what science is and is not. Is it just because I had a father who was a scientist, and also a believer.? We had a lot of discussions around those themes. So, despite not having the credentials, I agree with you. I would think that believing is quite another way of searching for meaning in life, different, totaliter aliter.
The one that I heard was that the eldest child will be conservative and the youngest not as conservative?
“So that’s why my eldest brother bought his house and my youngest brother built his house and me well I’m the middle child I don’t live in a house 😂”
it is pretty classic - time multiplied by stuff equals stuff happening -
The sarcastic shade you dish out in this video is just too spicy! 😂 Great video!
I also thought that there was more research and peer-reviewed support on the subject of birth order in families until I recently read (March 2024) Adler's original Understanding Human Nature (1927), in which he merely suggests that birth order anecdotally described in chapter 8, The Family Constellation, may be categorized as the oldest, youngest, and the only. My impression was that he wasn't declaring an established casual relatedness to those positions but rather explored some of the ways that they may be more generically understood, the rhetorical point of the book. I was very surprised at how little Adler famously said on the topic and alarmed at how imprecise follow-up research has been since.
Interesting that birth order seems to have no effect on personality considering I've heard about it affecting sexuality 🤔
But I guess that's academia for you - lots of underpowered studies and shoddy science being pushed in order to get citations and sell books (I've been reading a lot into meta-research lately and I'm kind of paranoid at this point lol 😭)
Regarding sexuality here's an interesting question to think about: Should it be considered a personality trait? It's conceptually similar to one in that it seems to be determined both by biological and environmental factors, lays on a spectrum and there are a variety of multi-question scales meant to measure it, and it can also be argued that it contains sub-facets like other personality traits (e.g. submissive vs. dominant, promiscuous vs. chaste, there's a _bunch_ of different kinks...)
I really think sexuality is usually not conceptualized as a personality trait only because it's a more stigmatized subject. So in a sense birth order may indeed affect personality, just not the OCEAN or HEXACO traits we're used to hearing about :P
When you take a topic like personality which has a billion factors that lead to it asking if ONE factor determines it is like asking if the salinity of a single rain drop affects an apple trees harvest next year.
Loving the apple trees analogy
I’m the older brother with a younger sister. The description at 3:20 is pretty much spot on for me. I think as the older sibling I often wanted to earn the favor of my parents by “being the bigger person,” which led to more conformity, while my sister had the mindset of “well my parents will favor him anyway so I might as well go off the walls more.”
Disclaimer: not saying that’s true for everyone but I think that was the case for me.
i loved every second of this video and would love to hear your opinion on the mbti, big 5, etc
I agree w/ the commenter that stated it influences it. Also, personality seems to be described differently and often gets mixed in with identity. Socialization is also a factor and birth order will be a part of that. I’m an MBTI nerd, because my parents are guidance counselors and I was introduced to it an early age. However, I’m also very familiar w/ the Big, Enneagram, etc. I’m an INFJ in the MBTI personality type framework. There was an article stating that most INFJ’s are the eldest child and that’s true for me. Of course that’s not the case for all of us.
Anyhow, I have 2 sociology degrees and I’m in grad school to be a therapist. I always take a big picture approach to things. Good video and interesting topic!
Victims of sibling raip may disagree that birth order is moot. Substantially disagree… Also, your topic area would benefit from research on Appeasement-Pheromone depletion in abuse victims and Appeasement-Pheromone over-supply in narcissists. There’s a Nobel Prize in this if anyone wants it.
Hi Ana I loved this video, along with the evolutionary psychology critique video. I think it'd be pretty cool to see a similar video about family therapy/counselling - bowen, strategic, structural etc. Thanks!
Writing this comment before watching. I do not think there is a pattern that can be applied to every family, for example if you are both first you have these and these traits, if second then the others. But I do think the order or to be more exact the 1) presence/absence of siblings 2) parents age 3) parents SES etc etc etc do have an influence on your personality. It’s just that by being born in different point in time than your other siblings you are determined to have very different conditions than your siblings.
Thank you for the content Ana. I always get a little excited every time you upload a new video 🙂↕️
Aww I’m so glad to hear that!
This video has a very hbomberguy energy about it without the 4 hours
This video was really, really helpful to me in more ways than just the litany of things it touched on.
Thank you!
I'm loving these new things you're trying out with your videos, the skits are awesome & funny, you really inspire me to try and create my own content ❤
I had so much fun watching this!! I have been binge watching your videos lately, keep up the good work 😊💪🏼
This was hilarious, Ana 😂 plus educational and spicy with all the drama
Last time i watched your video, you had 5k subs. Congratulations
Well, the further down the birth order you are then by necessity the more experience your parents have raising children and that might be a benefit. Another thing that birth order correlates with is age and the hormonal effect having children has on both parents. The further down the birth order you are, the older the parents you have. The further down the birth order you are, the more children your parents have already had. There is an inverse correlation between age and testosterone. Also testosterone declines substantially in people of both sexes when they become parents. I don't know if this effect only happens once, or if it keeps happening the more children people have.
There is an association between testosterone and risk tolerance and extraversion. So it seems like there would be a tendency for children born earlier in the birth order to be raised by more risk tolerant, more extraverted, parents. While children born later in the birth order to be raised by less risk tolerant, less extraverted, parents even though they have the same parents.
So, it could be that older children tend to be raised with a greater emphasis on freedom and having experiences while the younger children get a style of parenting that is more helicopter-y.
It's usually the opposite. Newer parents tend to be more helicopter-y and then relax with experience.
Older children are often raised more strictly. Plus, it requires more energy to be a helicopter parent than a lax one.
This is one of the funniest episodes on your channel. Love it! Very entertaining and informative.
Wow, a lot of drama there. It seems like ego got in the way here, not about finding the truth, but about defending a brand. I wonder if Sulloway was the youngest child and has trouble taking responsibility for himself? Haha, bad joke. I really appreciate the way you characterize science as well, a lot of people who question science seem not to understand what it is and how it works. Enjoyable video, thanks for posting.
Loving the development of the channel, now all you need is a podium and a top hat! And some leather gloves, and
The bottom line is that each person is an individual and completely unique. I look at my daughter who is almost 5 and while she has some traits of my husband and I we still can't figure out how two quite introverts created an out going social butterfly. Birth order is a lot like other personality tests and horoscopes, simple fun to read about and try and see those traits in yourself and others while also knowing that it is all just fun and not based on science. We are a mix of our genes, life experiences and how we choose to handle those things and we have the ability to change.
I would accept the research broadly that birth order has no predictable effect across populations,
but,
I wonder if it does within identifiable family dynamic types, such as enmeshed families.
Birth order does affect your future. I'm saying this as the oldest of the three men in my family. It alters parents' attitudes, societal expectations, amounts of reward/punishment... It affects your career choices and whether you'll receive higher education (in some parts of the world more than in others). What it doesn't do is determining your introversion/extraversion, neuroticism, your core beliefs and attitudes. Just like with many other factors of upbringing, this could lead to different results and be addressed in the future, when you're mature and capable.
Sulloway did his best to discredit himself. 😅
In love with Ana's Gary Johnson
Birth order effects will change as the social environment drives changes in the family environment
I think Frederick Townsend works for the tobacco companies ("Marlboro") so I wouldn't trust him either.
I lost it at the skit listing all the friends who agree with him lmao
Temperament, no. Sense of responsibility, yes. But, how, I am not sure.
As a triplet i thought the thesis would have been between the order of birth for twins or triplets, not the difference between 1st born, and 2nd lmao this is so stupid
I would guess that birth order has more effect on you than the month you were born in.
That being said my wife and I have atypical personalities and traits as far as standard birth order personalities go.
So an effect yes, but nothing constant or unchangeable.
Thank you thank you thank you!!
I live for the extrovert vibes in this video
I loved the skit. You did great! I'm tempted to tell people who have sh¡t opinions that they forgot their disclaimer that this is hogwash. 😂
To me, it seems as though, this is similar to astrology. In that, if you are preprogrammed to see certain qualities, in certain birth order places or sun signs, you will see this. So personally, I do find certain qualities consistent with the theory. Just not consistent consistently. Lol.
This was really good.
Allegedly. xD
The younger children tend to have older parents and that has an effect, so I'd assume there is some effect like I'd guess younger children are more likely to be autistic since there is a correlation with age of the parent and autism
I've heard of this being the case but I feel like I know more young parents with Autistic children (had children in their early-mid 20's.)
@@basskitten808. It's not a huge difference, iirc it's like a 5% difference between early 20s and early 40s, large enough to be noticed but not a defining factor
Ok but you look stunning in the miniature
Nerd fight!!!
Ma’am your really beautiful js letting you know
I am guessing she doesn't need youtube commenters to tell her that....positive comments are never a bad thing, but comments related to the content of the video are much more valuable.
I LOVE YOUU ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Been watching you for awhile now, and i just want to say i love how more of your authentic self has shown through lately!
Thank you for noticing🥰
This Sulloway guy is a real piece of work
...allegedly.
Sulloway's defensiveness, the appeal to his groupies and legal means to protect his 'reputation', the contempt for and attacks on his criticizers rather than the actual criticisms of his conclusions are all highly reminiscent of narcissistic behaviors.
It seems that birth order could be a factor in personality/ development depending on how their parents expect their roles to be in the family system.
I may take a deep dive in this Sullaway guy now 😅.
Before watching past your intro? My initial thoughts going into this is that birth order does NOT affect as much as people probably think it does, especially my friend who assumed I was the youngest based on things about me when actually I'm the older of two total siblings. I do think being an only child affects things, being older vs younger might affect one small aspect of things in a trend, but it's not going to be as far reaching as people really think it is.
Love the skit lmao, hope to see more when appropriate
Surely, the birth order is not the variable but how parents’ behaviour evolves.
Came for the information, stayed for the tea 🫖
Imagine comparing yourself to Tom Cruise, who has haters for a very specific reason. 👀
when i was around 15-16, i saw a psychotherapist who was a hardcore believer in birth order theory. unrelated, but she completely mentally scarred me by telling me i didn't suffer from an illness (an illness that an actual psychologist diagnosed me with only months later) despite the fact that she was not allowed to diagnose me with anything in the first place. she was absolutely convinced that me being the youngest child was the reason i was so anxious, depressed, insecure, etc. even as a teenager, i thought it sounded shoddy and pseudoscientific. my middle sibling suffers from nearly the exact same social and emotional problems that i do, while my two oldest siblings and my youngest older sibling have the most in common personality wise. she was telling me what my problems were instead of the other way around and as a defiant teenager i couldn't stand that lol. i don't think i had more than 2 appointments with her before i had enough of being infantilized. long story short, i hadn't heard anyone talking about it before or since, so i was surprised to see this video, definitely confirms what my younger self felt about it lol.
I’ll also add that I have a younger sister and we’re both introverted, or low on extraversion spectrum. Correlation isn’t causation, but people tend to jump to conclusions and misinterpret patterns. So from a socialization perspective, I think birth order does have some effects, but it’s not going to dictate personality to a significant degree.
Excellent video. I vote for the next collaboration to be with Bobby Broccoli.
I've tried to formulate my statement, but I just can't do it. I feel like people jumble up every aspect of their lives and over complicate who they are er over simplify who they are, when really, who we are, is the sum of a LOT of different things, and each thing affects other things about us, in different ways. So, while being born last doesn't necessarily mean anything, if your parents BELIEVE that it means something and actually treat each child differently because they believe that whole thing, then it can be an influential factor while growing up, but it's not something that can't be unlearned. You don't get some weird disability being born second like you do being born autistic or with bipolar disorder. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, it can affect you if the people raising you believe that particular thing, but inherently it doesn't actually change anything.
As far as the history of it all, I'm not smart enough to know who slandered who or falsified what lol. I've never been good at deciphering legalities.
Hilarious. I laughed out loud multiple times.
Who your family is determines your future more than anything else. The order not so much.
13:07 How thic do you want your website text?
Sulloway: Yes
i really like the summary in the end. wise words
5 Stars 🤣
Thomas Sowell mentioned, in regards to the importance of birth order, that most astronauts are either only children or oldest children. He goes in deeper in to how it determines future outcomes.
Before watching. I don't think birth order affects your personality that much. Rather, it's the roles you are given in childhood that will influence how you approach things later on instinctively.
However, I think this isn't set in stone and can change if reflected upon.
As an anecdotal example. My oldest sister is much less of an "oldest siblings" stereotype than my sister after her.
Because for specific circumstances, she was given a lot of the tasks an oldest sibling gets.
I also wouldn't say im a typical youngest child because, for us, being the youngest meant carrying a lot of responsibility and dealing with a worsening homlife while alone.
Like with most stereotypes, there is probably a way to see a superficial pattern in them, but it quickly breaks down if you look into it critically.
i hope this is the first comment also thanks for the psychology
A narcissistic mother has a child, but is unprepared for the duties. She is forced by the first child to parent; there becomes an enmeshment. The mother has another child "to teach the first one how to share" which is another dereliction of responsibility. The second child becomes a tool to put space between the mother and the first child, to interrupt the enmeshment. Both the mother and first born resent the second child, due to mere existence and competition. The second child becomes another tool for triangulation. The enforcement of the roles put upon the second child are crippling. The mother must detach from the second child in order to metabolize how much she can't love them. She always forgets, never forgives.
Looking forward to this, it'll be interesting if 'middle child syndrome' is mentioned. I have a sister that suffers terribly with this lol
in re: Dr. Johnson - the guy we used to call 'il duce' was many, many.... manymanymanymany things, but unreasonable was never one of them. he also wasn't much for lies and b.s., so...
(if you're reading, hi Dr J! it's Amy. I'm doing good and I hope you are too!)
T’was indeed a fun watch!
Evelyn Wood 🤣
❤
It is clearly seen that you took an inspiration from Münecat! Its nice to have more entertainment!
tbf she's had skits before in her videos, i still remember and cherish the couple's fish kiss at the end of a fight skit in one of her gottman research videos
@@SoVidushi I know, but its got bigger here
@@andreyulyashin6139 yess true. Love to see her second channel energy on this channel!
hi Ana! is there any way by which I can reach you? I sent you an email for an interview on behalf of a literary feminist online magazine but it seems it’s managed by somebody other than you :,)
So, just a guess, but judging by Soloway's demeanor and behavior, he sounds like the ignored and criticized baby of his family. 👀😲🫡🤡🙈