There is a way that the last spin u showed could work. The one way it could work is if u slide over while spinning then u have the opportunity to to slice ur opponent
The only timeline where a spin won’t be punished up close is if they’re off balance and their blade has been batted away, and even then, you could just flick the wrist to cut them rather than an extravagant spin.
Obi one's and anakin's battle on mustafar has a lot of spins and most of them work well. Either blocking while showing your back or bringing your sword back after it got knocked away. Great fight genious coreographer
Before anyone argues this... If the character is a superhuman and is so fast that such a spin wouldn't put them in danger, then they wouldn't be spending so much time trying to take down this one guy
Oh, absolutely it's unrealistic. But people are going to want to do stuff like this in choreography no matter what. So at least make it semi-believable
And then you have Geralt, who is superhuman in the books, but in the games his twirls are infuriatingly slow and get you cut. Even worse, in TW3 Geralt has multiple different animations for the same attack, and they all have different frame data, so you can't even be sure if you can whiff punish with a quick cut or whether Geralt will start spinning until next Tuesday and get interrupted along the way 🤬 They could have done _so_ much with Witchers to make their movement feel superhuman. Instead, they made them look like clowns. Slow clowns, who get cut by random humans for twirling too much, too close to an opponent 🤦🏻♂️
@@AlkisGD Sorry but that sounds more like someone who was really bad at combat in W3 would say. This game has really wide sidestep an parring timing, if you are regularly hit by simple humans, then the problem is with you not understanding the flow of the fight. Yeah they use a lot of spins, but those spins allow Geralt to engage everything in a radius no mater of his movement. It's really effective when you fight a hundred bandits in B&W, and it feels fun to evade attacks from giant monsters in the same motion as you strike them back.
That's the issue with a ton of fictional fighting techniques. If you need powers for it to use it, isn't there a much better way to use those powers instead?
@@reio4641 I see it all the time when Star Wars fans talk about reverse grip. And sure, super fast and strong force users could probably get away with it against average Joe’s (less efficient but doable). But as soon as they go up against other force users, they are suddenly back on an equal playing field so it would go back to being a massive disadvantage
Funnily enough, one of Anakin's favorite go to moves is that flourishing spin you did where he brings his saber behind him and back in front to perform a strike. Shadiveristy did a breakdown of the fight and talked about how that spin wasn't bad because it protected his back and led into a strike. Glad to see someone else perform it. It looks awesome, and semi realistic.
Well, lightsaber combact is a whole different beast than classic melee. There is no edge allignment, blades often lock up as the they attract each other like magnets, wich means that you really need to put more strenght into swinging that thing around to prevent it, wich explains the wide strikes, the weight of the blade shifts during combact and a bunch of other shit wich "explains" the flamboyancy of the movies. Still, there is no need to spin, despite having the possibility to, but we all know how much Anakin likes to dramatically show off.
@@gidelstarwind realistic sword dules whouldent ruin fantasy movies, it whould only ruin it if you go for realism during battle scenes but not an at least pretty even duel
@@vinne6837 I imagine "realistic" duels would have a lot more thrusting; why wouldn't you just stab someone going for those big Hollywood slashes? But thrusting with swords stiff and heavy enough to make "swordfighting noises" when clacked together are also probably unsafe to use for choreographing a lot of stabby-stabby.
@@gidelstarwindthat's hogwash, what's strict realism? I agree there should be an enhanced/augmented realism, realism "on steroids" due to a fantasy setting but without being stupid about it. Take a look at Adorea Olomouc fight choreographies. They fit everywhere. Also the Witcher games series (game) motion cap/choreography. Those were great, treating swordplay with respect but taking it to the next level, I even bought the spins and twirls with no problem.
@JohnHellscream are u fr rn? the witcher games, especially the 3rd, have SOOO much unnecessary close range spinning and twirling. looks cool, but let's be real it's incredibly exaggerated lol
This is a pretty interesting take, as the only difference from what's usually done in shows and films is a matter of distance. Making it part of the approach makes it almost a taunt to intimidate an enemy. Even though they're not in danger, it just says "I can turn my back on you and do this cool spin in front of you and you can't do a thing, now fight me!"
@@thisdude9363 Yeah, that too. Sort of a deceptive measure, taking advantage of a brief moment of their opponent underestimating them with little sacrificed if they don't take the bait. Could be interesting, having a fighting manual in some fantasy story talk about this as a viable tactic.
Basically that one Witcher 3 combat mod that only made Geralt use spinning attacks when attacking from a distance, increased immersion by a million and still got to see all the awesome animations.
But at least geralt has the excuse of having superhuman speed, strenght, reflexes, reaction time etc. He can pull off spins without endangering himself
@@zachrabaznaz7687 in the books, the spins allows geralt to dodge and attack at the same time. He dodges by spinning and doing pirouettes and quickly attacks at the end of the spin. Also, the spin gives him more momentum to attack and allows him to put more weight on the blows, which is useful against monsters and their heavy carapace/skin. At least that is the books explanation for the witcher signature fighting style. I'm not a real swordsman so i wouldn't know if there's real logic behind it
@@LuisEduardo-xm3tc It makes zero sense to even use swords against armored opponents either way, but spinning to build up momentum is inferior to just having proper form.
@@zachrabaznaz7687 here comes another book explanation kkkkkk. The witcher swords to kill monsters are made of silver, coated with a layer of meteorite steel, which is steel from falling stars that have magical properties and make them deadlier, stronger and much more resistant and unlikely to break against hitting someone or something. Combining that with the witchers super-human strenght and it makes the swords hit really hard and cut smoothly against the monsters. Ordinary weapons made from common steel doesn't have these properties and the only common sword that is usually effective against monsters in witcher universe are greatswords, like one a crinfrid reaver uses against a dragon in the second book (still got stomped). That's the book explanation for witchers using swords when they probably should use weapons better suited for hard skinned and heavily armored opponents. Sapkowski made sure to be well prepared with convenient excuses when someone called out the bullshit in the witcher fighting style he crrated
True, but that's achieved though massive range. And you wouldn't use it if the opponent had a weapon with reach like a spear (you'd more likely opt for twirling the blade in front of you batting polearm style weapons away). If they have shorter weapons they have to move into the area of a fast swinging blade to even get in range so effectively you're spinning out of their reach, and spinning keeps you out of their reach.
I would actually love to see a movie where they lampshade bad choreography like this. Like, where a character does a spin or flourish in the middle of combat like you see in some movies, but just gets cut down immediately rather than their opponent just passively letting them do it.
Bro movies and books do that all the time and it's infuriating because even though they point out the flaws in those choreography, none of them actually take effort to make a cool but believable fight where both parties are fighting realistically. I hate stories whose only identity is making fun of the genre without actually doing anything better, basically like Velma.
I remember writing a training sequence for one of my characters once. They did a spin and their mentor figure CRACKED THEM ON THE BACK WITH THE TRAINING SWORD and asked why they were spinning like an idiot. So whenever there is an episode that addresses spinning it resonates with me
This man has taught me so much about actual sword fighting, I don't think I would ever do HEMA personally but I can absolutely appreciate his knowledge and his fun that he has even with practice
I think you should have included doing a spin while in a bind. Maybe you could cover that? Like an attack coming in and blocking/deflecting with your sword and then doing a spin step around the other person while still keeping your own sword in between you and their sword. Idk if it would work, intuitively I feel like there aren't any major flaws but I also don't have anyone to test it with in any way. Would be really cool if you were to cover it.
I came here to ask the same thing. You see this in MMA with spinning elbows off of clinch breaks. I would hypothesize that if someone overcommitted to a push on a bind, spinning out of it into a draw cut or short slash *might* work. Would have to try with someone who didn't know it was coming through.
@@shinomori69spinning is much more common in unarmed martial arts since you can take a strike to the back and not die. I don’t know how this situation will play out though.
My mans needs to get involved in a production that puts these tropes on their heads, where we actually see the flourishing spin get the dude doing it killed.
I like when you just straight up teach without goofing or try to fit that useless spins to the fight. You've got so much knowledge and experience I'm happy to watch
You could maybe potentially pull off a spin from grappling distance. It's unlikely, but once in a live fencing match me and my opponent both pushed to Cron and I spun, ducked at the same time and managed to hit him in the ribs. Will never happen again, couldn't do it intentionally if I tried, but was absolutely glorious lol
Also notice in the distance spin, he maintains eye contact until looking over his left shoulder during the rotation, then he immediately turns his head to look over his right shoulder to regain eye contact and aim. Same principle is used for turning kicks in other martial arts.
I kinda thought that Geralt's spin in the Blavakin fight worked. He was in close & his momentum was already carrying him that way. It ended up, at least seemingly, enhancing his dodge. Granted, he's a witcher with supernatural natural senses & reflexes.
The "spin attacks" that Geralt and other witchers use are based off of the pirouette, a pseudo spin attack used with two handed weapons when fending off multiple attackers; best way I could explain it is you swing in front of you, do a half turn, swing above your head and behind you, half turn, and swing in front of you again. Rinse and repeat until your footwork has made distance between you and your opponents. One spin of the body has you swing the big sword in 2 to 3 circles if it's done right. that said, a pirouette doesn't necessarily add more force to a blow or parry like the witchers do; its to get your opponents to back off so you can reassess the combat situation. But they're also fighting angry mobs, monsters three times their size and literal ghosts while being automatically in peak physical form, so...😅
@@thisdude9363 the entire "blade ballet" was most certainly used in old europe, just not this variation in specific It would be more of an arms out push that both sends you back and your opponent forward, creating some space between you, and would consist of less body movement and more blade swing. The witcher takes a cool approach to this technique by being aware of how a pirouette would confuse animals and does a good job at implementing the concept into the moves, though it could have been all a coincidence.
The spining techniques of the montante were used with the premise of having the clear range advantage though. Plus they were made to hold back several opponents at once. So, when used right, you never run into the problem of facing someone with your back while being in reach of his sword.
@@ilsgrade8357 you are mostly right yes, but not completely. I have trained with the montante for a while and there is at least on techniek used against one opponent witch involves spinning. It that case it is used to wind up some momentum in the sword to make an even bigger lunch than normally possible to come closer.
@@casthelion416 but as I understand the techniques, even then you are supposed to close the gap while spinning, so that the moment you are in reach, you're already facing towards the opponent again. Or did I miss something there?
@@ilsgrade8357, yeah, and that's what the video author was meaning. He even showed it himself with last example. You have to be faced toward your opponent to do an effective spin.
I thought spins could always show skill if done right. Instead of everyone doing them, make one person do it and make him do it in a way where he's still protected mid spin so that it kinda sends the message of "this guy is so good he can afford to spin and still keep up"
To be fair, I think the main purpose of the spin attack in Zelda is for when you’re surrounded by enemies so it’s not like you’re leaving yourself any more open then otherwise.
There are also times when spinning while up close can be done realistically. For example, if your opponent brings his sword down in an overhead slash, and you bring your sword up high to parry it at around head level, you can duck under and spin to try and get at your opponents from another angle. Another example is if your opponent is charging at you, you can sidestep, parry, pivot and spin, coming up behind them to slash them across the back. There’s also the “Behind the back flourish while you spin” maneuver, which (at least in a fantasy setting where the impossible is a daily occurrence) allows you to protect your back while spinning, thus eliminating the danger of the unnecessary spin.
The only time I have ever seen a close range spin move mid fight work was on the Node channel when they were doing larp sword fights and D did a spin move where he actually managed to get his sword behind his back mid spin and parry the incoming strike before doing one of his own. It was incredible.
I have pulled off one (1) effective use of a spin within melee range. It was a bastard sword duel, and me and my opponent had locked guards with the blades squeezed in between us. I still don't quite know *how* I did it, but I pushed him back and spun counterclockwise to free my sword from his guard, before I came down with a slash
Honestly, what I kept seeing when you did the big spin correctly (maybe cause of the music) was two or three points of contact that would make it have a lot of sense: Sellsword rushes through the hallway to his foe, knowing what trap awaits him. He spins to his right, knocking down a drawbar at a quarter turn, slicing the ropes holding up the small portcullis behind him, and disarming the crossbow trap at 3/4 turn that would have shot him in the back. And, using the remaining momentum, lands a drastic first swing against the dastardly Renard. "I may wield a messier, but it's your precautions that are the true mess."
There *are* ways to execute a spin attack where it's actually *advantageous* ; you can do the spin going into a *sidestep* and swinging the sword as you spin to both dodge your opponents attack and *add* the momentum of the spin to the momentum of your swing to give your strike to their exposed back more power than it'd have normally. If you're a dual wielder, or a one-hand and shield wielder, you can use your off-hand weapon to knock your opponents weapon *aside* , and use the momentum from that knock aside to go *into* your spin, and step in closer as you're spinning, swinging your main hand weapon while you're spinning to again add the momentum of the spin to the momentum of your swing to make your strike more powerful; the latter is *extremely* effective at allowing someone wielding *shorter* weapons to close in on an opponent wielding a *longer* weapon like a polearm. A two-handed weapon wielder that's surrounded can also use a spin attack to create a danger zone around them to keep any of the opponents surrounding them from closing in for the kill. All of the above of course, require the performer to be pretty *fast* ; not outside human limits fast, but still fast.
You can make spins in range safer if media makes shields more popular. When I’m fighting a veteran sword and board fighter, they sometimes mix things up with a spin, but while the spin the place their shields behind their backs. This prevents potential back hits and because of the fancy footwork, can potentially give them shoulder or back shots, which are good strikes.
In the place I learn sword fighting, I learned a counter attack to a horizontal cut where you block with the blade down and your handle above, then you have to do a spin so you hold the opponent's sword in your block all the time and at the end of the spin you cut their torso with one hand. It's hard to describe but I feel like it is a solid option when I do it because it doesn't put me in danger or complicated positions, so that might be an example of a close range spin
Weapons with a bit more heft can benefit from a spin by carrying the momentum from a swing instead of putting more energy into stopping it to reset, this, I think is a perfectly valid way to use a spin in writing, and if done correctly, can really add to the perception of the weapon as something with a serious capacity to mess someone up. Don’t make it absurdly heavy for no reason though, zweihänders are still only about 2-4 kilos. Just enough to benefit from following through with momentum, but not enough to be unwieldy and slow. Also works well when you have a character surrounded by a gang or something and they all have daggers or something of that ilk. The range of a great sword can be used in tandem with a spin to keep multiple enemies at bay and cleave through a few of them while you’re at it. The only issue with suspension of disbelief in that scenario is imagining why any group of dagger-laden thieves would be stupid enough to pick the person with the giant ass sword as a good target.
I remember somewhere i saw a character whose sword style was about opportunity baiting. He once did this and when was about to be stabbed, he put his sword parallel his back, parried the stab and when he completed the spin he used the momentum to slash as their opponent's defense was open.
Sword's Path has a great video on spinning, where he managed to come up with a viable close range spin. Basically it was a part of a feint (I guess, I lack in terminology), changing direction of next attack
I made spin work once by first binding blades and at the same time stepping/pushing past your opponent forward right or left with footwork. At that stage of "overbinding" spinning the opposite direction is the only sensible way to free the bind and accelerate your blade to a cut.
It also works well in a retreating motion together with a whirl, especially considering a battlefield situation where you might want to have a look around.
actually there was a spin in some professional swordfighting sport recently that worked, but it was no "big spin" it was a very tight turn following a cut, and the blade actually protected the back
Forget making it as fantasy, this is legit good lesson on every fighting stances or strategy ever, conserve your length and distance properly, spinning is bad or not, it does added more velocity and force to your swings. Same as kicking or punching with wind up or building momentum, you didn't just look badass, but also cementing the lesson much harder😂
I do larping and one of my passions is to add spins when fighting beginners. Its just bad, but in most cases you don’t get punished for it and the enemy is just scared. Still suicidal but fun
The big spin that he did in the beginning can be useful in a couple situations like doing a really strong heavy attack that you break the block or easily glide through that enemy’s block that’s one of the reasons
When it is real sword fighting. You pretty much take what you can get. If he spins, then it is an opportunity that was presented. You take that strike to kill.
Spinning in close distance actually can be done in a way that makes sense functionally. If you maintain a guard while you spin (see Obi-Wan vs Anakin on Mustafar. Obi-Wan and Anakin both spin within striking distance of each other but they maintain either hanging guards or pull off guards during flourishes to prevent their opponent from smacking them in the back) then at least the spin wouldn’t be an instant death sentence.
I think the point of a spin in video games is to add momentum and power behind the spin. Like, usually a spin happens at the end of a combo or as a charged attack
One of the more believable close range combat spins i have seen came from the game For Honor when meeting Apollyon for the first time. She was engaged in combat and saw another swinging at her back so she rolled under and cut him down
Theres a scene in the new Mortal Kombat game that features a well done spin. Sub-zero vs scorpion, sub-zero attacks with an overhead strike with a blade in his right hand, and strikes with the same thing like 4 times, then spins, switching hands, and cutting him with his left hand. Tough to do, but it was pretty slick for the game
Same with reverse grip. It looks cool, but it isn't functional unless if it makes sense, like standing over someone sleeping and you're an assassin going in for the kill.
My main use of spins would be for group fights. I do a lot of sword+shield combat and the amount of times a spin has saved me from an easy backstab is too much to count - when you're surrounded a quick whirl out of the danger zone can really throw off their ability to attack
In the SCA I've seen fighters occasionally, not very often, but every-so-often, attempt a spinning backhand shot in more close-quarters range, and probably 8 or 9 times out of 10 it fails. It is also very risky, not just because you're in range of the opponent and could get hit, but because, should your opponent be using a shield, as you do a spinning backhand shot, you risk hitting your elbow on their shield's edge, which could potentially cause you to hyper-extend your elbow.
There is an element of realism to the spins and flourishes while closing gap as well, if I've been traveling all day some exaggerated movement is akin to stretching as you get out of a chair (but more exaggerated)
Maybe a spin while close up would make sense if you're trying to pick up speed on a real heavy weapon for a risky finisher while (at least trying) being evasive like dodging to the side while winding up with a waraxe or something.
Then hope that your opponent is also using something heavy and doesn't see it coming, or else you might get clotheslined by a handle, pommeled in the back of the head or... y'know, he takes a step back and punishes your miss
I feel like this is a thing choreographers are *starting* to realize: you can HAVE all of these crazy fancy-looking movements, so long as you deploy them in ways where they physically make sense.
There's nothing stopping the opponent lunging while you're spinning from a distance either, not only throwing off your attack range, but adding unpredictability to the fight.
Spinning in a sword fight can be an amazing tool if you were in an actual battle you could something like mma in close quarters and give a spinning elbow
One more ,,spin" that works even in combat: spin after succesfull strike, as a retreat. Ive done it many times, you probably too, in hema sparing or competition videos on yt you can see them too.
Shoutout to the spins Obi-Wan does in his duel with Anakin on Mustafar. Close-range spins, yes, but quick ones where his weapon remains locked to Anakin’s and serve a defensive purpose.
Spins are -fun- fine if you're outnumbered and surrounded. You have your back exposed anyway and you want to swing your sword around to create a danger zone for your enemies and simultaneously a safe zone for yourself. Also this only works if you're wielding a long sword/weapon.
I somewhat like the fade away spins. Where they are backing away with their spins and Slash as they retreat. Is it advantageous nah. But boy is it cool
its easy to theorize whether things work or not when the mind state isnt pressured from being harmed. things change when the mind gets hyperfocused, even a clap could disorient the receiver. when the receiver in a hyperfocused state, even a spin could disrupt their ability to predict the attacker's movement, and at that time, they are thinking more to be defensive rather than offensive. Because training safely excludes danger that makes the mind goes impulsive.
easiest way to faithfully include the bad spins? add a shield on mc's back that covers everything so the opponents sword bounces off, or same thing with armor.
Or, if your character is some super soldier or something, you could have them hit so hard that their opponent has to regain their balance just from clashing swords, thus giving them time to do a fancy spin.
I saw this alot in shads fight scene autopsy of anakin vs obiwan, spinning can be great if you're like moving with the momentum and guarding your back while spinning
Could also technically do a rear block in the middle of the spin, usually spinning gives them time for a single attack, but if you do a block or attack during the spin then it kinda works
I think Anakin in Revenge of the Sith also does some pretty good spins, because he spins during battle, but during his spin, his light saber blade covers his back/the area that is facing his opponent the whole time so he doesn't give up his defense for the spin
That spin looks like it could be useful if there are other attackers as well! You'd close distance and ward off other swords that would otherwise try to get close, similar to how greatswords keep others at a distance
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Check my comment for big brain idea.
There is a way that the last spin u showed could work. The one way it could work is if u slide over while spinning then u have the opportunity to to slice ur opponent
Alguna vez escucharon hablar de la esgrima china
I actually believe spinning to close a big distance is actually good. It can help give a little more body behind the advancing swing
C
The only timeline where a spin won’t be punished up close is if they’re off balance and their blade has been batted away, and even then, you could just flick the wrist to cut them rather than an extravagant spin.
Or perhaps you could have a character try to show off to a crowd while dueling an incompetent character
In anime: dies but revives becaue he became a demon and dodge all the attacks
So basically, a badass fatality?
while you could easily cut the opponent with a regular slash, the style points from the spin are simply priceless
Obi one's and anakin's battle on mustafar has a lot of spins and most of them work well. Either blocking while showing your back or bringing your sword back after it got knocked away. Great fight genious coreographer
"Have fun, but don't be dumb" is genuinely great advice for life.
And for love too!
Yes, sword philosophy suits life well, as well as martial arts philosophy. You can apply it to a variety of contexts
Before anyone argues this... If the character is a superhuman and is so fast that such a spin wouldn't put them in danger, then they wouldn't be spending so much time trying to take down this one guy
Oh, absolutely it's unrealistic.
But people are going to want to do stuff like this in choreography no matter what. So at least make it semi-believable
And then you have Geralt, who is superhuman in the books, but in the games his twirls are infuriatingly slow and get you cut.
Even worse, in TW3 Geralt has multiple different animations for the same attack, and they all have different frame data, so you can't even be sure if you can whiff punish with a quick cut or whether Geralt will start spinning until next Tuesday and get interrupted along the way 🤬
They could have done _so_ much with Witchers to make their movement feel superhuman. Instead, they made them look like clowns. Slow clowns, who get cut by random humans for twirling too much, too close to an opponent 🤦🏻♂️
@@AlkisGD Sorry but that sounds more like someone who was really bad at combat in W3 would say. This game has really wide sidestep an parring timing, if you are regularly hit by simple humans, then the problem is with you not understanding the flow of the fight. Yeah they use a lot of spins, but those spins allow Geralt to engage everything in a radius no mater of his movement. It's really effective when you fight a hundred bandits in B&W, and it feels fun to evade attacks from giant monsters in the same motion as you strike them back.
That's the issue with a ton of fictional fighting techniques. If you need powers for it to use it, isn't there a much better way to use those powers instead?
@@reio4641 I see it all the time when Star Wars fans talk about reverse grip. And sure, super fast and strong force users could probably get away with it against average Joe’s (less efficient but doable). But as soon as they go up against other force users, they are suddenly back on an equal playing field so it would go back to being a massive disadvantage
Funnily enough, one of Anakin's favorite go to moves is that flourishing spin you did where he brings his saber behind him and back in front to perform a strike. Shadiveristy did a breakdown of the fight and talked about how that spin wasn't bad because it protected his back and led into a strike. Glad to see someone else perform it. It looks awesome, and semi realistic.
I especially liked how they brought it back in Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan copied the move in his duel with Vader.
"I'll try spinning, that's a good trick!"
Plus, Anakin is a Jedi, so He doesn't need face his opponent to know where to strike/ defend
In martial arts like using the broad sword their are spins or sword moves that bring the sword behind you to
Protect your back while you do this.
Well, lightsaber combact is a whole different beast than classic melee. There is no edge allignment, blades often lock up as the they attract each other like magnets, wich means that you really need to put more strenght into swinging that thing around to prevent it, wich explains the wide strikes, the weight of the blade shifts during combact and a bunch of other shit wich "explains" the flamboyancy of the movies. Still, there is no need to spin, despite having the possibility to, but we all know how much Anakin likes to dramatically show off.
Man. Hollywood really needs to hire you for literaly every fantasy movie.
God I hope not. Nothing ruins a fantasy set movie more then strict realism...
@@gidelstarwind realistic sword dules whouldent ruin fantasy movies, it whould only ruin it if you go for realism during battle scenes but not an at least pretty even duel
@@vinne6837 I imagine "realistic" duels would have a lot more thrusting; why wouldn't you just stab someone going for those big Hollywood slashes? But thrusting with swords stiff and heavy enough to make "swordfighting noises" when clacked together are also probably unsafe to use for choreographing a lot of stabby-stabby.
@@gidelstarwindthat's hogwash, what's strict realism? I agree there should be an enhanced/augmented realism, realism "on steroids" due to a fantasy setting but without being stupid about it. Take a look at Adorea Olomouc fight choreographies. They fit everywhere. Also the Witcher games series (game) motion cap/choreography. Those were great, treating swordplay with respect but taking it to the next level, I even bought the spins and twirls with no problem.
@JohnHellscream are u fr rn? the witcher games, especially the 3rd, have SOOO much unnecessary close range spinning and twirling. looks cool, but let's be real it's incredibly exaggerated lol
Waluigi likes swords and how he uses them to conquer his enemies
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@@shreddedbagelwabiwabo8342 ah I like lesbian carrot sticks better
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This is a pretty interesting take, as the only difference from what's usually done in shows and films is a matter of distance. Making it part of the approach makes it almost a taunt to intimidate an enemy. Even though they're not in danger, it just says "I can turn my back on you and do this cool spin in front of you and you can't do a thing, now fight me!"
@@thisdude9363 Yeah, that too. Sort of a deceptive measure, taking advantage of a brief moment of their opponent underestimating them with little sacrificed if they don't take the bait.
Could be interesting, having a fighting manual in some fantasy story talk about this as a viable tactic.
Basically that one Witcher 3 combat mod that only made Geralt use spinning attacks when attacking from a distance, increased immersion by a million and still got to see all the awesome animations.
But at least geralt has the excuse of having superhuman speed, strenght, reflexes, reaction time etc. He can pull off spins without endangering himself
@@LuisEduardo-xm3tcIt's still idiotic. Geralt's not a damn clown.
@@zachrabaznaz7687 in the books, the spins allows geralt to dodge and attack at the same time. He dodges by spinning and doing pirouettes and quickly attacks at the end of the spin. Also, the spin gives him more momentum to attack and allows him to put more weight on the blows, which is useful against monsters and their heavy carapace/skin. At least that is the books explanation for the witcher signature fighting style. I'm not a real swordsman so i wouldn't know if there's real logic behind it
@@LuisEduardo-xm3tc It makes zero sense to even use swords against armored opponents either way, but spinning to build up momentum is inferior to just having proper form.
@@zachrabaznaz7687 here comes another book explanation kkkkkk. The witcher swords to kill monsters are made of silver, coated with a layer of meteorite steel, which is steel from falling stars that have magical properties and make them deadlier, stronger and much more resistant and unlikely to break against hitting someone or something. Combining that with the witchers super-human strenght and it makes the swords hit really hard and cut smoothly against the monsters. Ordinary weapons made from common steel doesn't have these properties and the only common sword that is usually effective against monsters in witcher universe are greatswords, like one a crinfrid reaver uses against a dragon in the second book (still got stomped). That's the book explanation for witchers using swords when they probably should use weapons better suited for hard skinned and heavily armored opponents. Sapkowski made sure to be well prepared with convenient excuses when someone called out the bullshit in the witcher fighting style he crrated
There’s also those greatsword-style spins where you’re still offending your opponent a bit even with your back to them.
But the point stands, you're still doing it outside of your opponent's reach
True, but that's achieved though massive range. And you wouldn't use it if the opponent had a weapon with reach like a spear (you'd more likely opt for twirling the blade in front of you batting polearm style weapons away). If they have shorter weapons they have to move into the area of a fast swinging blade to even get in range so effectively you're spinning out of their reach, and spinning keeps you out of their reach.
I would actually love to see a movie where they lampshade bad choreography like this. Like, where a character does a spin or flourish in the middle of combat like you see in some movies, but just gets cut down immediately rather than their opponent just passively letting them do it.
That would be absolutely hilarious. I could totally see that working in a “princess bride” type of movie lol
Bro movies and books do that all the time and it's infuriating because even though they point out the flaws in those choreography, none of them actually take effort to make a cool but believable fight where both parties are fighting realistically. I hate stories whose only identity is making fun of the genre without actually doing anything better, basically like Velma.
I remember writing a training sequence for one of my characters once. They did a spin and their mentor figure CRACKED THEM ON THE BACK WITH THE TRAINING SWORD and asked why they were spinning like an idiot. So whenever there is an episode that addresses spinning it resonates with me
This man has taught me so much about actual sword fighting, I don't think I would ever do HEMA personally but I can absolutely appreciate his knowledge and his fun that he has even with practice
'I am dead now'
🤣🤣
"Have fun, just don't be dumb" is excellent life advice.
“Add your spins, have some fun, just.. don’t be dumb.” My new fav quote 😂
That " I'm dead now" was the best part🤣🤣🤣
proceeds to charge forward while their back is turned
I think you should have included doing a spin while in a bind. Maybe you could cover that? Like an attack coming in and blocking/deflecting with your sword and then doing a spin step around the other person while still keeping your own sword in between you and their sword. Idk if it would work, intuitively I feel like there aren't any major flaws but I also don't have anyone to test it with in any way. Would be really cool if you were to cover it.
I came here to ask the same thing. You see this in MMA with spinning elbows off of clinch breaks. I would hypothesize that if someone overcommitted to a push on a bind, spinning out of it into a draw cut or short slash *might* work. Would have to try with someone who didn't know it was coming through.
@@shinomori69spinning is much more common in unarmed martial arts since you can take a strike to the back and not die. I don’t know how this situation will play out though.
@@Specter_1125 agreed, and again it would have to be used against someone who didn't know it was coming to gauge effectiveness.
@@Specter_1125 Mybe like kingdom come deliverence its kinda similiar mybe
My mans needs to get involved in a production that puts these tropes on their heads, where we actually see the flourishing spin get the dude doing it killed.
I like when you just straight up teach without goofing or try to fit that useless spins to the fight. You've got so much knowledge and experience I'm happy to watch
Also, having a character using a Montante realistically is also a good way 😉
The reason why spinning "doesn't work" is because none of them are announcing "I'M GOING TO USE MY SPIN MOVE" before spinning
“Spinning is a neat trick”
I want a movie where one of the characters tries to be the hero and does a fancy little spin, then straight up dies
I use spins in this exact way with my choreography! Only time I'll use a larger spin is if I'm closing the distance in a "showy" way!
You could maybe potentially pull off a spin from grappling distance. It's unlikely, but once in a live fencing match me and my opponent both pushed to Cron and I spun, ducked at the same time and managed to hit him in the ribs. Will never happen again, couldn't do it intentionally if I tried, but was absolutely glorious lol
Also notice in the distance spin, he maintains eye contact until looking over his left shoulder during the rotation, then he immediately turns his head to look over his right shoulder to regain eye contact and aim. Same principle is used for turning kicks in other martial arts.
I kinda thought that Geralt's spin in the Blavakin fight worked. He was in close & his momentum was already carrying him that way. It ended up, at least seemingly, enhancing his dodge.
Granted, he's a witcher with supernatural natural senses & reflexes.
The "spin attacks" that Geralt and other witchers use are based off of the pirouette, a pseudo spin attack used with two handed weapons when fending off multiple attackers; best way I could explain it is you swing in front of you, do a half turn, swing above your head and behind you, half turn, and swing in front of you again. Rinse and repeat until your footwork has made distance between you and your opponents. One spin of the body has you swing the big sword in 2 to 3 circles if it's done right.
that said, a pirouette doesn't necessarily add more force to a blow or parry like the witchers do; its to get your opponents to back off so you can reassess the combat situation.
But they're also fighting angry mobs, monsters three times their size and literal ghosts while being automatically in peak physical form, so...😅
@@thisdude9363 the manuscripts of Hans Talhoffer and Die Blume des Kampfes say otherwise, bub. Try again
@@thisdude9363 the entire "blade ballet" was most certainly used in old europe, just not this variation in specific
It would be more of an arms out push that both sends you back and your opponent forward, creating some space between you, and would consist of less body movement and more blade swing. The witcher takes a cool approach to this technique by being aware of how a pirouette would confuse animals and does a good job at implementing the concept into the moves, though it could have been all a coincidence.
"Spinning with swords isn't historical accurate."
Montante has left the chat
The spining techniques of the montante were used with the premise of having the clear range advantage though. Plus they were made to hold back several opponents at once.
So, when used right, you never run into the problem of facing someone with your back while being in reach of his sword.
@@ilsgrade8357 you are mostly right yes, but not completely. I have trained with the montante for a while and there is at least on techniek used against one opponent witch involves spinning. It that case it is used to wind up some momentum in the sword to make an even bigger lunch than normally possible to come closer.
@@casthelion416 but as I understand the techniques, even then you are supposed to close the gap while spinning, so that the moment you are in reach, you're already facing towards the opponent again. Or did I miss something there?
@@ilsgrade8357 yes that is completely true
@@ilsgrade8357, yeah, and that's what the video author was meaning. He even showed it himself with last example. You have to be faced toward your opponent to do an effective spin.
Actually how I learn to sword fight was watching your videos and I'm so happy it's so fun
I thought spins could always show skill if done right. Instead of everyone doing them, make one person do it and make him do it in a way where he's still protected mid spin so that it kinda sends the message of "this guy is so good he can afford to spin and still keep up"
To be fair, I think the main purpose of the spin attack in Zelda is for when you’re surrounded by enemies so it’s not like you’re leaving yourself any more open then otherwise.
"I'm dead now."
comedy gold
My dude looks like a real life assassins creed character and has the skills to back it up
Damn, that flourish was beautiful
Bro you need to do costumes for movies, this kinda drip is just ….
“Cheffs kiss”
I like that he acknowledges rule of cool and then works with it.
That casual flourish was so 🆒️
This short really needed to be done 🎉
There are also times when spinning while up close can be done realistically. For example, if your opponent brings his sword down in an overhead slash, and you bring your sword up high to parry it at around head level, you can duck under and spin to try and get at your opponents from another angle.
Another example is if your opponent is charging at you, you can sidestep, parry, pivot and spin, coming up behind them to slash them across the back.
There’s also the “Behind the back flourish while you spin” maneuver, which (at least in a fantasy setting where the impossible is a daily occurrence) allows you to protect your back while spinning, thus eliminating the danger of the unnecessary spin.
The only time I have ever seen a close range spin move mid fight work was on the Node channel when they were doing larp sword fights and D did a spin move where he actually managed to get his sword behind his back mid spin and parry the incoming strike before doing one of his own. It was incredible.
I have pulled off one (1) effective use of a spin within melee range.
It was a bastard sword duel, and me and my opponent had locked guards with the blades squeezed in between us.
I still don't quite know *how* I did it, but I pushed him back and spun counterclockwise to free my sword from his guard, before I came down with a slash
That seems cool
Honestly, what I kept seeing when you did the big spin correctly (maybe cause of the music) was two or three points of contact that would make it have a lot of sense:
Sellsword rushes through the hallway to his foe, knowing what trap awaits him. He spins to his right, knocking down a drawbar at a quarter turn, slicing the ropes holding up the small portcullis behind him, and disarming the crossbow trap at 3/4 turn that would have shot him in the back. And, using the remaining momentum, lands a drastic first swing against the dastardly Renard.
"I may wield a messier, but it's your precautions that are the true mess."
If I ever make a movie with sword fighting I'm gonna call this guy to see if it's good or not.
So are we just not gonna talk about how clean that one handed spin was?
There *are* ways to execute a spin attack where it's actually *advantageous* ; you can do the spin going into a *sidestep* and swinging the sword as you spin to both dodge your opponents attack and *add* the momentum of the spin to the momentum of your swing to give your strike to their exposed back more power than it'd have normally.
If you're a dual wielder, or a one-hand and shield wielder, you can use your off-hand weapon to knock your opponents weapon *aside* , and use the momentum from that knock aside to go *into* your spin, and step in closer as you're spinning, swinging your main hand weapon while you're spinning to again add the momentum of the spin to the momentum of your swing to make your strike more powerful; the latter is *extremely* effective at allowing someone wielding *shorter* weapons to close in on an opponent wielding a *longer* weapon like a polearm.
A two-handed weapon wielder that's surrounded can also use a spin attack to create a danger zone around them to keep any of the opponents surrounding them from closing in for the kill.
All of the above of course, require the performer to be pretty *fast* ; not outside human limits fast, but still fast.
You can make spins in range safer if media makes shields more popular. When I’m fighting a veteran sword and board fighter, they sometimes mix things up with a spin, but while the spin the place their shields behind their backs. This prevents potential back hits and because of the fancy footwork, can potentially give them shoulder or back shots, which are good strikes.
In the place I learn sword fighting, I learned a counter attack to a horizontal cut where you block with the blade down and your handle above, then you have to do a spin so you hold the opponent's sword in your block all the time and at the end of the spin you cut their torso with one hand. It's hard to describe but I feel like it is a solid option when I do it because it doesn't put me in danger or complicated positions, so that might be an example of a close range spin
Medieval Indiana Jones just pulls his cocked crossbow and ends this epic spin attack halfway
Weapons with a bit more heft can benefit from a spin by carrying the momentum from a swing instead of putting more energy into stopping it to reset, this, I think is a perfectly valid way to use a spin in writing, and if done correctly, can really add to the perception of the weapon as something with a serious capacity to mess someone up. Don’t make it absurdly heavy for no reason though, zweihänders are still only about 2-4 kilos. Just enough to benefit from following through with momentum, but not enough to be unwieldy and slow. Also works well when you have a character surrounded by a gang or something and they all have daggers or something of that ilk. The range of a great sword can be used in tandem with a spin to keep multiple enemies at bay and cleave through a few of them while you’re at it. The only issue with suspension of disbelief in that scenario is imagining why any group of dagger-laden thieves would be stupid enough to pick the person with the giant ass sword as a good target.
I remember somewhere i saw a character whose sword style was about opportunity baiting.
He once did this and when was about to be stabbed, he put his sword parallel his back, parried the stab and when he completed the spin he used the momentum to slash as their opponent's defense was open.
Sword's Path has a great video on spinning, where he managed to come up with a viable close range spin. Basically it was a part of a feint (I guess, I lack in terminology), changing direction of next attack
I made spin work once by first binding blades and at the same time stepping/pushing past your opponent forward right or left with footwork. At that stage of "overbinding" spinning the opposite direction is the only sensible way to free the bind and accelerate your blade to a cut.
It also works well in a retreating motion together with a whirl, especially considering a battlefield situation where you might want to have a look around.
actually there was a spin in some professional swordfighting sport recently that worked, but it was no "big spin" it was a very tight turn following a cut, and the blade actually protected the back
Some dude : spinwalks
His opponent :starts walking towards him
I think adding the spin to a boss really gonnaake it badass
Forget making it as fantasy, this is legit good lesson on every fighting stances or strategy ever, conserve your length and distance properly, spinning is bad or not, it does added more velocity and force to your swings.
Same as kicking or punching with wind up or building momentum, you didn't just look badass, but also cementing the lesson much harder😂
I do larping and one of my passions is to add spins when fighting beginners. Its just bad, but in most cases you don’t get punished for it and the enemy is just scared. Still suicidal but fun
The big spin that he did in the beginning can be useful in a couple situations like doing a really strong heavy attack that you break the block or easily glide through that enemy’s block that’s one of the reasons
This is practical especially in Martial Arts. TKD and Karatakas do this a lot and it's deadly!
"Have fun. Just don't be dumb."
Seems like sound advice.
Again. Thank you. Editing a story right now with flourish, but my editor caught me on it and it helps showing it to me
When it is real sword fighting. You pretty much take what you can get. If he spins, then it is an opportunity that was presented. You take that strike to kill.
Spinning in close distance actually can be done in a way that makes sense functionally. If you maintain a guard while you spin (see Obi-Wan vs Anakin on Mustafar. Obi-Wan and Anakin both spin within striking distance of each other but they maintain either hanging guards or pull off guards during flourishes to prevent their opponent from smacking them in the back) then at least the spin wouldn’t be an instant death sentence.
I think the point of a spin in video games is to add momentum and power behind the spin. Like, usually a spin happens at the end of a combo or as a charged attack
One of the more believable close range combat spins i have seen came from the game For Honor when meeting Apollyon for the first time. She was engaged in combat and saw another swinging at her back so she rolled under and cut him down
Theres a scene in the new Mortal Kombat game that features a well done spin. Sub-zero vs scorpion, sub-zero attacks with an overhead strike with a blade in his right hand, and strikes with the same thing like 4 times, then spins, switching hands, and cutting him with his left hand. Tough to do, but it was pretty slick for the game
Same with reverse grip. It looks cool, but it isn't functional unless if it makes sense, like standing over someone sleeping and you're an assassin going in for the kill.
This channel cheers my moment
Man that flourishing spin is amazing, a tutorial on how to do it would be awesome 😁
As Bowen said in Dragonheart…”only expose your back to a corpse”
My main use of spins would be for group fights. I do a lot of sword+shield combat and the amount of times a spin has saved me from an easy backstab is too much to count - when you're surrounded a quick whirl out of the danger zone can really throw off their ability to attack
Skallagrim once showed a link to a sword fight where a well timed spinning attack worked.
In the SCA I've seen fighters occasionally, not very often, but every-so-often, attempt a spinning backhand shot in more close-quarters range, and probably 8 or 9 times out of 10 it fails. It is also very risky, not just because you're in range of the opponent and could get hit, but because, should your opponent be using a shield, as you do a spinning backhand shot, you risk hitting your elbow on their shield's edge, which could potentially cause you to hyper-extend your elbow.
There is an element of realism to the spins and flourishes while closing gap as well, if I've been traveling all day some exaggerated movement is akin to stretching as you get out of a chair (but more exaggerated)
What happens if mid-swing, they bring the sword around to try to protect their back? (if that's possible)
pretty sure this happens a lot in star wars lightsaber fights
Maybe a spin while close up would make sense if you're trying to pick up speed on a real heavy weapon for a risky finisher while (at least trying) being evasive like dodging to the side while winding up with a waraxe or something.
Then hope that your opponent is also using something heavy and doesn't see it coming, or else you might get clotheslined by a handle, pommeled in the back of the head or... y'know, he takes a step back and punishes your miss
I feel like this is a thing choreographers are *starting* to realize: you can HAVE all of these crazy fancy-looking movements, so long as you deploy them in ways where they physically make sense.
There's nothing stopping the opponent lunging while you're spinning from a distance either, not only throwing off your attack range, but adding unpredictability to the fight.
Spinning in a sword fight can be an amazing tool if you were in an actual battle you could something like mma in close quarters and give a spinning elbow
One more ,,spin" that works even in combat: spin after succesfull strike, as a retreat. Ive done it many times, you probably too, in hema sparing or competition videos on yt you can see them too.
I'm srry but the drip is just...
*chef kiss*
Anakin's spin attack in the Mustafar fight is amazing, he guards his back while pivoting to the side, you guys could make a video about it :3
Shoutout to the spins Obi-Wan does in his duel with Anakin on Mustafar. Close-range spins, yes, but quick ones where his weapon remains locked to Anakin’s and serve a defensive purpose.
looking at the wall wit dramaticexpression: "IM DED NOW"
Spins are -fun- fine if you're outnumbered and surrounded. You have your back exposed anyway and you want to swing your sword around to create a danger zone for your enemies and simultaneously a safe zone for yourself.
Also this only works if you're wielding a long sword/weapon.
I somewhat like the fade away spins. Where they are backing away with their spins and Slash as they retreat. Is it advantageous nah. But boy is it cool
its easy to theorize whether things work or not when the mind state isnt pressured from being harmed. things change when the mind gets hyperfocused, even a clap could disorient the receiver.
when the receiver in a hyperfocused state, even a spin could disrupt their ability to predict the attacker's movement, and at that time, they are thinking more to be defensive rather than offensive.
Because training safely excludes danger that makes the mind goes impulsive.
Doing the lord's work! Keep it up sir!
easiest way to faithfully include the bad spins?
add a shield on mc's back that covers everything so the opponents sword bounces off, or same thing with armor.
Or, if your character is some super soldier or something, you could have them hit so hard that their opponent has to regain their balance just from clashing swords, thus giving them time to do a fancy spin.
This works with Barbarian in Diablo video games series and it is the barbarian's signature move called 'Whirlwind'.
“Before the battle of the fist is the battle of the mind” - Master shifu 2016
Anyone else remembering the final of the famous sword fight in the film „Raiders of the Lost Ark“?
Another good example is with saber flourishes/”spins”
I saw this alot in shads fight scene autopsy of anakin vs obiwan, spinning can be great if you're like moving with the momentum and guarding your back while spinning
Could also technically do a rear block in the middle of the spin, usually spinning gives them time for a single attack, but if you do a block or attack during the spin then it kinda works
I think Anakin in Revenge of the Sith also does some pretty good spins, because he spins during battle, but during his spin, his light saber blade covers his back/the area that is facing his opponent the whole time so he doesn't give up his defense for the spin
That spin looks like it could be useful if there are other attackers as well! You'd close distance and ward off other swords that would otherwise try to get close, similar to how greatswords keep others at a distance