Awesome results. M390, 20CV, and 204P, when done right, should be close to, or better than S90V in overall edge retention. Your test added further proof to that claim. I know my 204P PM2 holds an edge for much longer than I expected. I hope we see more like this from Spyderco.
This is the first one I've had above 60. I do wish I would have tested the Para 3 that was 60.1 hrc before I sold it. With what I have coming for M390 cut testing it will show a good progression that correlates with hrc and increased wear resistance just like Bohler shows in their data sheets.
Great video Gerald! Just confirms what we've all been saying. That result falls right in line with the Bradford Guardian I tested in m390 that's supposedly 60-61. That did mid 300s.
Im back watching this after ordering the knifeworks exclusive shaman in 204p with a listed hardness of 62-63hrc. I hope it's a performer like this m390
M390 hits a sweet spot at HRC 62 and all knife companies offering M390 should run it HRC62. I have 4 Reate's and am really anticipating seeing your results, hope they live up to the expectation.
Cultrotech does the best m390. Their regular runs are at 63hrc and their custom heat treat is at 64.5 hrc. Compared to other m390 class steels their knives cut 2-4 times as much. M390 can go up to 66-67 hrc, that's a but much but there's no reason why production companies can't hit 60-62 hrc on their knives.
@@waveman0 yes time is money in the labor equation and automation that can give quantity does not mean quality or I should say sacrifices quality/ craftsmanship for quantitative profit models... Labor is the most expensive part of large scale production costs. So these companies should offer knives with optimized heat treatment for any given metallurgy and charge $5.00-$10.00 more per knife to cover the extra labor costs involved in proper HT instead of selling shoddy products that leave the customer highly unsatisfied, as well as create negativity/ doubt and bad faith in the community and industry because people cant be trusted to deliver what they claim. Do it right or dont do it at all. 😉
Yeah, you hit the lottery G, whatever step of the HT that is getting left out as a cost cutting measure has put a real taint on the M390 family in production knives.
Is there any hardness data available on the 204P PM2s? It sounds like the 20CV PM2s are definitely on the softer side. Nice testing, thanks for the efforts!
From the test I've seen at 64.5 m390 cut almost 4 times as much as a spyderco military in m390. It's a Russian channel but I think he has subtitles if you aren't fluent in the language. He's tested s110v, s125v, elmax, cowry x, rex 121 and elmax with great heat treats (Cultrotech knives) and the results compared to production knives are quite a ways better. CKF seems to have pretty decent m390 from his tests as well. Channel name is RuslanKiyasov
Damn...that's some pretty impressive m390 stuff for a huge change G, thank you for that!!! Oddly enough, you mentioned Reate. I will mention to you that KMEbrian has been telling me for awhile now that I need to check their stuff out. He's very impressed by them, so I wanted to mention that. Rock on Mr G!! 👍👍🙏🙏🙌🙌👊👊
If their steel tests well I’d be comfortable saying they may be the best place to spend money. Especially on the used market. Fit and finish materials and action are all on point. If the steel performs I’d say it’s a home run. My personal opinion of course and with the caveat that you’re into slightly more expensive knives.
Amazing performance! I have been fishing for something that performs like this for a while now. Just don't know where my money is worth the most. Thanks so much for upcoming budget 12c27 test! I got land 9103 for 15$.. the knife is amazing for the price.. and steel feels nice.. before I dish out for top end steel I'm really excited I got to see ganzo d2 performance and will get to see srm 12c27.. as far as I know two best steel options in sub 25$ budget range. I personally consider them as gateway steels for fresh steel entusiasts like myself, and therefore a measuring "stick" for the rest of the higher end bunch. I feel knowing their performance gives more insight into how high end steels perform. Sorry, long comment, but I have two more things to say. First, did you experience as a rule better performance from 15dps than 18dps in other steels tested so far? And second, what is the best price to performance steel you tested so far? Thanks for sharing all of these exciting results with us, it's an interesting journey! God bless.
I'd say from what's been tested so far the PM2'S in M390 are about 70% around 62 hrc and 30% down around 60 hrc. Send me an email, it's in the description and I'll further explain how even the Spyderco M390 at 60 hrc does.
My olny question would be is.. How much of a variation will you get on heat treat for "Production" knives? I would expect custom knives to be closer to the desired targets than a mass produced knife... I own a Cultroteck knife and its rated at 63HRC.. But the price difference between that and a production knife is like chalk and cheese.
Custom is going to be better, I know of 2 I've seen recently. One at 63.5 hrc and another at 64.its definitely able to be done and the variations in production M390 as we have seen with our sample pool so far can be huge.
@@Bigpapaross00 63 hrc on the PM2, Para 3 and Gayle Bradley 2. 64.2 on the Manix 2. I'll be sending a Manix and my Shaman soon to have those data points as well. If you want to send me an email I'd be glad to pass any info along you want.
The Para 3 has been a little softer, otherwise the PM2'S tested have all been 62+. A Delica M390 was tested and it too was 62 hrc over 2 tests. Their 20CV however is still coming in around 59-60 on all models tested so far.
No, a few Para 3 M390 have been tested and were 59.6-60.1 hrc. A Delica M390 was also tested and was 62 hrc. There are 6 or 7 more Spyderco M390 in line to be tested so we can get a better idea.
I was told by envy is 61 or 62 idk if it really is i also have the ace biblio on the way in m390, makes me wonder. Im gonna hitu on a dm later tonight so i can send your knife back.
I would be really interested in how they HT it. Like cryo and tempering. How exactly did they do it but probably nobody knows and I don't think spyderco would tell anybody
I dont think this a regular thing. If you look at the data sheets we have been compiling... literally 98% of the M390/20CV/204P is between 55-59 HRC. The spyderco 20cv I tested was some of the worst M390/20CV/204P. The HT protocol for M390/20CV/204P emphasizes very fast moving times, which is why I think the HRC is all over the place.
Is it safe to asume that the DLT Co. M390 PM2 versión would have a similar HRC? And if the metal sheets that are sold to the production companies that are coming from the steel manufacturer are the same. Why is there such a difference in HRC between all the different knife companies? Is it because the heat treat sucks? Is the M390 steel sourced from different companies?
It comes down to heat treatment. I cant say how all the M390 PM2'S are, my DLT M390 PM2 that came from Blade Show is actually harder than this BBS. I'll post about it once it comes, maybe even today.
if the companies are running it at 57-59rc then they are probably opting for the temper which maximizes the Stainless properties of the steel. problem is that the steel has too many tempering options and unless you know what the company did.. ie specific tempering temperature to attain the hardness, then you will never know what you are getting from each company without testing. you can temper low in the 59rc for high stainresistance, or you can temper 1050f to get the highest wear, but that wear is designed for wear as a plastic die, and doesn't necessarily translate to edge holding wear... but if you dont know if they went 60rc high wear, or 60rc at 350f (nothing great) or 59rc 390f for high corrosion, then you just dont know what you are buying.. the companies need to publish their tempering cycles if you want a clue as to how the steel is going to behave. i guess once you find a company that does it how you want it, then stick with that company.. you might not want to tarnish your knives, but it would be interesting to test the 59rc product against the 62rc in a corrosion test with a drop some acidic fluid of some kind
@@aw9389 I did test the first edge on my own and I need to test it now that it's a few more edges along. My Para 3 was 65 rc, Kenny's was the same and Kurt's 4V Manix was 65.4. I have his now to test and I'll do my Para 3 at the same time.
@@Outpost_76 wow i didnt know it would be that hard. I managed to get a st. Nicks shaman and havent used it yet. I have absolutely no experience with 4v. Thanks for replying!
I would be interested to see how the 20CV endela performs for you. Unfortunately for these high edge wear resistance steels spyderco seems to be the only game in town for proper HT.
That’s awesome! I would like to see someone else have that m390 Rockwell tested and see what they get. Did you win the lottery or is Spyderco m390 all pretty good! Goodnight Gerald 😂
This is just misinformation man, you are only testing hrc and not steel properties. Once you get past manufacturer burnt edge and geometry hrc is king in fine edge, which is all you test. A working edge goes much more than cutting paper. An edge is a working edge until it turns into a wedge. You are glossing over toughness, stability, chipping, etc.. essentially you are just testing what holds a razor edge the longest.
There has to be a metric of when to call a test, I use paper. This is my way of testing to get results to compare. You dont have to like how I do it so I welcome you to test as you describe, it also would be ones perceived point of being dull if you "cut until it's a wedge" as you said.
Talking to the manager of Saint Nick's yesterday he told me dealer can choose Rockwell as long as it's within range of the steels capabilities. I'm guessing your knife may be a result of this being an exclusive to Bento Box.
Finally getting around to watching this. Holy cow! That’s insane performance! Great job. 👍🏻
Far ahead of the 57-59 hrc M390 we see way too often.
Wow!! That is a huge difference and backs up the hype of M390! Thanks for sharing buddy!
It really is, thanks JB
Awesome results. M390, 20CV, and 204P, when done right, should be close to, or better than S90V in overall edge retention. Your test added further proof to that claim. I know my 204P PM2 holds an edge for much longer than I expected. I hope we see more like this from Spyderco.
Great result mate it must be nice when theory becomes reality. Well done. Atb paddy. 👍😊☘️
Definitely nice to see what its capable of. Now if we can see it happen more often. Thank you Paddy.
So glad you’re doing these tests ! I haven’t actually ever had a knife in M390 over 60 HRC. All mine tested at or well below 60 HRC.
This is the first one I've had above 60. I do wish I would have tested the Para 3 that was 60.1 hrc before I sold it. With what I have coming for M390 cut testing it will show a good progression that correlates with hrc and increased wear resistance just like Bohler shows in their data sheets.
Outpost 76 I’m looking forward to that brother !! Appreciate all that you are doing !
Thanks a lot for the effort. Appreciated very much.
You're welcome
Great video Gerald! Just confirms what we've all been saying. That result falls right in line with the Bradford Guardian I tested in m390 that's supposedly 60-61. That did mid 300s.
I was talking with BJ about that one today
Im back watching this after ordering the knifeworks exclusive shaman in 204p with a listed hardness of 62-63hrc. I hope it's a performer like this m390
That would be nice to see.
Yes!! Maybe my Spyderco delica sprint run in m390 will be similar. I’m praying they did a good heat treat on it 🙏🏻🤞
I'm going to say 59-60 on that one.
Outpost 76 yeah unfortunately I think you’re right.
@@Iheartknives1 How do you know what HRC rating a particular knife is? such as this one that's 62 hrc m390?
Great video G!!! Excellent results!!! Thanks for sharing brother!!!
Thank you and you're welcome
M390 hits a sweet spot at HRC 62 and all knife companies offering M390 should run it HRC62.
I have 4 Reate's and am really anticipating seeing your results, hope they live up to the expectation.
So far Reate looks solid
Cultrotech does the best m390. Their regular runs are at 63hrc and their custom heat treat is at 64.5 hrc. Compared to other m390 class steels their knives cut 2-4 times as much. M390 can go up to 66-67 hrc, that's a but much but there's no reason why production companies can't hit 60-62 hrc on their knives.
I think its budget constraint that keeps them from heat treating properly. Cheapskates......
@@krustysurfer true, that's my guess as well, it takes a lot to get it right
@@waveman0 yes time is money in the labor equation and automation that can give quantity does not mean quality or I should say sacrifices quality/ craftsmanship for quantitative profit models... Labor is the most expensive part of large scale production costs.
So these companies should offer knives with optimized heat treatment for any given metallurgy and charge $5.00-$10.00 more per knife to cover the extra labor costs involved in proper HT instead of selling shoddy products that leave the customer highly unsatisfied, as well as create negativity/ doubt and bad faith in the community and industry because people cant be trusted to deliver what they claim.
Do it right or dont do it at all. 😉
So basically what your saying is I should buy this right now
Yeah, you hit the lottery G, whatever step of the HT that is getting left out as a cost cutting measure has put a real taint on the M390 family in production knives.
It's more moving times than a step left out. I'm glad I have this to show what its capable of.
Outpost 76 What do you mean by moving time Gerald ? It’s not a term I’m familiar with as it relates to HT.
I have that same Sanmanru. Great little knife! Steel sux but it sharpens easy.
Fuckin yeah!!!! Finally some damn good m390!!!!!
Cut test ends at the 11:14 mark.
Your welcome.
You're welcome. You are welcome.
A unicorn 🦄... Shame that we all paid for the 62HRC steele. Thanks again for the video 😎👍
You mean this particular pm2 is a unicorn ?
@@mountaindont34ify most are 60 or below... This is a 🦄 unicorn...
Could you test twosuns m390 next? Great test BTW
I'll have to track one down to test its something I want to test
@@Outpost_76 I have both a Twosun in M390 and a Spyderco PM2 in M390. Send PM if you would like to test. : )
@@barkingspider2007 absolutely I'd love to test both of them. Is your user name the same on Instagram?
@@Outpost_76 I don't have an Instagram account 770 three zero nine 4191. Happy to mail the knives 😎👍
Did this ever happen
Bento box pm2 m390 was my first spyderco. But I got the dlc coating which I regret a little but it's still beautiful.
I like the dlc and blue.
Wow really amazing knife!!! ^w^
keep the higher angle going,should last you forever-btw super job
Thank you
Great results! Has the BBS Para 3 in M390 been tested? Probably not 62 but could be close. Thank you for that impressive demo!👍
LTK sent one and his was 59.6 hrc, mine was 60.1 hrc
Is there any hardness data available on the 204P PM2s? It sounds like the 20CV PM2s are definitely on the softer side.
Nice testing, thanks for the efforts!
I'll have to look, I'm pretty sure some have been tested.
Imagine at 64rc haha
I'd love to try 64 hrc M390 out
If they build it, we will come.
From the test I've seen at 64.5 m390 cut almost 4 times as much as a spyderco military in m390. It's a Russian channel but I think he has subtitles if you aren't fluent in the language. He's tested s110v, s125v, elmax, cowry x, rex 121 and elmax with great heat treats (Cultrotech knives) and the results compared to production knives are quite a ways better. CKF seems to have pretty decent m390 from his tests as well. Channel name is RuslanKiyasov
Bear is the police k390 still ur favorite?
Wow I didn't know spyderco would produce such a hard 62 hrc knife
I have a red DLT PM2 M390 from Blade Show this year and it tested at 62.5 hrc twice. I'll be test6that one soon to post here as well.
Damn...that's some pretty impressive m390 stuff for a huge change G, thank you for that!!! Oddly enough, you mentioned Reate. I will mention to you that KMEbrian has been telling me for awhile now that I need to check their stuff out. He's very impressed by them, so I wanted to mention that. Rock on Mr G!! 👍👍🙏🙏🙌🙌👊👊
I'm part way through Reate M390 now. It's doing well.
If their steel tests well I’d be comfortable saying they may be the best place to spend money. Especially on the used market. Fit and finish materials and action are all on point. If the steel performs I’d say it’s a home run. My personal opinion of course and with the caveat that you’re into slightly more expensive knives.
Amazing performance! I have been fishing for something that performs like this for a while now. Just don't know where my money is worth the most. Thanks so much for upcoming budget 12c27 test! I got land 9103 for 15$.. the knife is amazing for the price.. and steel feels nice.. before I dish out for top end steel I'm really excited I got to see ganzo d2 performance and will get to see srm 12c27.. as far as I know two best steel options in sub 25$ budget range. I personally consider them as gateway steels for fresh steel entusiasts like myself, and therefore a measuring "stick" for the rest of the higher end bunch. I feel knowing their performance gives more insight into how high end steels perform. Sorry, long comment, but I have two more things to say. First, did you experience as a rule better performance from 15dps than 18dps in other steels tested so far? And second, what is the best price to performance steel you tested so far? Thanks for sharing all of these exciting results with us, it's an interesting journey! God bless.
I'll explain it better in the morning
Did you have to use diamond stones. Its amazing how much difference 2 on the scale makes.
I almost always sharpen on some type of diamond abrasive.
Is a 61-62hrc typical for the Bento Box M390 exclusives? Looking at pulling the trigger on one.
I'd say from what's been tested so far the PM2'S in M390 are about 70% around 62 hrc and 30% down around 60 hrc. Send me an email, it's in the description and I'll further explain how even the Spyderco M390 at 60 hrc does.
are all PM2's in M390 from bento box 62HRC?
I just received mine today, I hope so.
My olny question would be is.. How much of a variation will you get on heat treat for "Production" knives? I would expect custom knives to be closer to the desired targets than a mass produced knife... I own a Cultroteck knife and its rated at 63HRC.. But the price difference between that and a production knife is like chalk and cheese.
Custom is going to be better, I know of 2 I've seen recently. One at 63.5 hrc and another at 64.its definitely able to be done and the variations in production M390 as we have seen with our sample pool so far can be huge.
Cool. I wonder if the hrc is similar for the knifeworks 204p pm2.
I wanted to test mine but I sold it before I had a chance to send it to Kurt.
@outpost76 hey man great vids. Any chance you know what the Hrc of the 20cv pm2 models?
The ones I've seen tested so far were 59.4 and 59.8.
Thank you
@@Outpost_76 of corse man sorry to keep asking but how about the cpm m4 from spyderco.
@@Bigpapaross00 63 hrc on the PM2, Para 3 and Gayle Bradley 2. 64.2 on the Manix 2. I'll be sending a Manix and my Shaman soon to have those data points as well. If you want to send me an email I'd be glad to pass any info along you want.
That’s great news. Now I’m missing that knife. Haha!!!
So, it's starting to look like Spyderco has better HRC consistency in their M390 steel then most other brands I've reviewed. Would you disagree?
The Para 3 has been a little softer, otherwise the PM2'S tested have all been 62+. A Delica M390 was tested and it too was 62 hrc over 2 tests. Their 20CV however is still coming in around 59-60 on all models tested so far.
Question: Is this Para 2 in M390 the only Spyderco M390 that was tested for Rockwell hardness?
No, a few Para 3 M390 have been tested and were 59.6-60.1 hrc. A Delica M390 was also tested and was 62 hrc. There are 6 or 7 more Spyderco M390 in line to be tested so we can get a better idea.
I was told by envy is 61 or 62 idk if it really is i also have the ace biblio on the way in m390, makes me wonder. Im gonna hitu on a dm later tonight so i can send your knife back.
The Tuya Envy LTK sent came in at 58 hrc. You can message me whenever, no rush.
@@Outpost_76 oh ok i didnt know it had gotten checked im gonna take another look at that spread sheet thanks bud.
I dont think they are still available?) Next run?
DLT will have a second run of the red M390 this summer.
@@Outpost_76 red is good, will keep an eye out, them better have the same hrc though
Wondering how consistent the hrc is on these m390 pm2's. I have the DLT trading red g10 version.
We have seen as low as 59 or as high as my DLT M390 PM2 that is 62.5 hrc.
You should put on the microscope. I'd like to see what the transition point looks under magnification
I would like to pick one up so I can get some good video of before and after testing.
I would be really interested in how they HT it. Like cryo and tempering. How exactly did they do it but probably nobody knows and I don't think spyderco would tell anybody
I dont think this a regular thing.
If you look at the data sheets we have been compiling... literally 98% of the M390/20CV/204P is between 55-59 HRC.
The spyderco 20cv I tested was some of the worst M390/20CV/204P.
The HT protocol for M390/20CV/204P emphasizes very fast moving times, which is why I think the HRC is all over the place.
Is it safe to asume that the DLT Co. M390 PM2 versión would have a similar HRC?
And if the metal sheets that are sold to the production companies that are coming from the steel manufacturer are the same. Why is there such a difference in HRC between all the different knife companies?
Is it because the heat treat sucks?
Is the M390 steel sourced from different companies?
It comes down to heat treatment. I cant say how all the M390 PM2'S are, my DLT M390 PM2 that came from Blade Show is actually harder than this BBS. I'll post about it once it comes, maybe even today.
@@Outpost_76 Curious about this. Any update re: Tested HRC of BBS PM2 m390 HRC vs. 1st Release DLT PM2 m390 vs. 2nd Release DLT PM2 m390 ?
curious as well. how do we know what HRC a blade is before buying it from a particular seller?
@khyoon14 Some vendors and manufacturers will have the HRC rating info on their website.
@GravityRoller I’m hoping to see an update my self.
if the companies are running it at 57-59rc then they are probably opting for the temper which maximizes the Stainless properties of the steel. problem is that the steel has too many tempering options and unless you know what the company did.. ie specific tempering temperature to attain the hardness, then you will never know what you are getting from each company without testing.
you can temper low in the 59rc for high stainresistance, or you can temper 1050f to get the highest wear, but that wear is designed for wear as a plastic die, and doesn't necessarily translate to edge holding wear... but if you dont know if they went 60rc high wear, or 60rc at 350f (nothing great) or 59rc 390f for high corrosion, then you just dont know what you are buying.. the companies need to publish their tempering cycles if you want a clue as to how the steel is going to behave.
i guess once you find a company that does it how you want it, then stick with that company..
you might not want to tarnish your knives, but it would be interesting to test the 59rc product against the 62rc in a corrosion test with a drop some acidic fluid of some kind
funny this just poppup up in my things to watch today. lol..
That’s freaking awesome bro😳 wish it was on a Manix, don’t you buddy Hahahaha dude, imagine at 15 dps 🤷🏽♂️ I need to get my hands on some 62+
I want to try some 64 hrc M390 now
Could you touch this up on sharpmaker ceramic stones?
Yes you could
👍s up.
I have a 20cv DLT pm2, i wonder what hardness would be.
The ones I know to have been tested so far were 59.5-60 rc. The hardest Spyderco 20CV so far has been a Manix 2 I traded to Kurt and it was 60.8 rc.
@@Outpost_76 what about 4v? On a spyderco, do you have any experience?
@@aw9389 I did test the first edge on my own and I need to test it now that it's a few more edges along. My Para 3 was 65 rc, Kenny's was the same and Kurt's 4V Manix was 65.4. I have his now to test and I'll do my Para 3 at the same time.
@@Outpost_76 wow i didnt know it would be that hard. I managed to get a st. Nicks shaman and havent used it yet. I have absolutely no experience with 4v. Thanks for replying!
So this did better than k390?!
The Police g10 K390 did a little better. Wait until the K390 Endura video comes out.
I would be interested to see how the 20CV endela performs for you. Unfortunately for these high edge wear resistance steels spyderco seems to be the only game in town for proper HT.
Seki 20CV is below 60
@@thaknobodi it’s kind of a bummer
That’s awesome! I would like to see someone else have that m390 Rockwell tested and see what they get. Did you win the lottery or is Spyderco m390 all pretty good! Goodnight Gerald 😂
The 2 Para 3 M390 tested were 59.6 and 60.1. I just got lucky with this one.
maserin m390 good?
Maybe, maybe not. Steve had a good one, I tested one that didn't do well.
@@Outpost_76 thanks for the reply! I really look forward to knives in vibenite 290.. 72hrc sounds promising
@@bele28 there are a few new things coming. I'll have elastic ceramic to test as well soon.
@@Outpost_76 awesome!
Good D2 is just as hard
who is this kurt fellow you always speak of ? lol. and can anyone send him stuff to test?
@jcoolG19 😂
Looking to test the 20CV from the DLT trading Manix 2?
I have one left and I'll get to it soon.
Do you think the para 3 in m390 from bento is the same hardness?
I've seen the BBS M390 Para 3 test from 58 to mid 60 hrc. I've only seen one close to 61, the majority of them tested were 60 or less.
@@Outpost_76 unfortunate, I was really hoping at least 61
This is just misinformation man, you are only testing hrc and not steel properties. Once you get past manufacturer burnt edge and geometry hrc is king in fine edge, which is all you test. A working edge goes much more than cutting paper. An edge is a working edge until it turns into a wedge. You are glossing over toughness, stability, chipping, etc.. essentially you are just testing what holds a razor edge the longest.
There has to be a metric of when to call a test, I use paper. This is my way of testing to get results to compare. You dont have to like how I do it so I welcome you to test as you describe, it also would be ones perceived point of being dull if you "cut until it's a wedge" as you said.
I prefer the Tenacious from Walmart
Talking to the manager of Saint Nick's yesterday he told me dealer can choose Rockwell as long as it's within range of the steels capabilities. I'm guessing your knife may be a result of this being an exclusive to Bento Box.
I hope so, I just received my Bentobox m390 PM 2 today.