Donate to Rainn (USA): www.rainn.org/ Donate to the Survivor's Trust: thesurvivorstrust.org/donate-to-the-survivors-trust/ AUTHOR'S CLARIFICATION BELOW: Towards the end of the video at 12:30 I mention that Tom says "That's your fault" regarding the Freeze response. Whilst he does say this, it's actually in response to Caiti describing that she felt too shy to express discomfort. I don't want to misrepresent Tom's words, so I wanted to clarify the exact context. However, my statement still stands. Citing a victim's inaction has long been used to place blame for an assault on them. Tom gets dangerously close to parroting this rhetoric, so I stand by my criticism of his wording and attitude there.
I thought I would entirely disagree with this video but as always you are 100% correct about everything basically. There are plenty of ways to talk about how Caiti is being overly dramatic/manipulated at best, or malicious at worst, without falling into harmful stereotypes around perfect victims.
FYI this video is about recognising when commentators are using the stereotypes of rape culture to delegitimise victims - not about whether you think caity is disingenuous
You cannot divorce the video from the caity situation if it is literally about it. The point is obviously what you say, but the context to make that point is the worst context possible. Maybe talk about how victims get delegitimised when a victim is getting delegitimised. That way you can help a victim, but this video comes when the point is weakest and not useful at all. But what do I know.
We're seeing this all over again with Drake Bell. After the documentary came out, everyone's chosen to flip sides and forget about the allegations made against him. It's like the public just can't fathom the idea of someone being both a victim and an abuser at the same time. If you're a victim, you must be an angel that can do no wrong, and stay in the "perfect victim box."
I dont really know much about this specific case (so wont comment on it at all) but I think that its worth adding that the "fight or flight" response is slightly wider these days, fight, flight, freeze or fawn (also including flag and faint in some models). The fawn case being someone becoming ultra compliant in order to avoid potential harms associated with being non compliant (and I think this response is even more highly scrutinised than freeze because its viewed as a sign of active consent to be compliant, anyone I know who had a fawn response to their 'incident' never reported it because they felt there was no plausible case given that response). The fact that only "immediate attempt to run" or "attempt to fight back" are the supposed 'only valid claims' and Tom's "if you cant reliably be a 'good victim' or avoid being a victim" is just scary, the idea of the "weak" being unable to exist without fear of being assaulted, and then these same people will turn around and get mad at you for saying grape culture exists. Nice video, sad it exists.
That's really valuable information, thanks so much for sharing. This is why I think affirmative consent is so important, if you really care about the other person, what's the harm in checking in with them? People love to talk about "feeling the vibe" until it comes to understanding the feelings of the person they'e with. Then it becomes impossible for them to tell, I guess.
Yes. she is so traumatized that night which is why she kept coming back him,following him to elevator & flirting with him on chats for days. So traumatized that she now lies that he made her drink & followed him to elevator & lies that she didn't gave non verbal concent.
@@michaelh878wow way to not read anything and make up a scenario that doesn’t even relate to the idea outside of sounding similar. Very smart. Sexual assault is not a literal hunter vs prey situation like a guy taking down a deer - and it’s pretty gross red flag on you to describe it like that - it’s a *specific kind of predation*, a concept which has multiple different variations beyond literally just being aggressive and attacking. The fawn thing not existing in animals is also something you’re also wrong about, by the way. Animals are capable of showing compliance and subservience in order to avoid being hurt, especially among their own kind or animals that want to take things like food or territory from them. They’re also plenty capable of forming attachments to the things that hurt them; abused dogs will still stay with their masters who hit them, wolves will stay with a pack that bullies them, etc.
I think the issue when it comes to SA claims around internet figures is that, it automatically turns into more than just believing the Victim and goes hand and hand with ruining the other persons livelihood. What I mean by that, is that in this scenario I think it's wrong to invalidate Caiti's FEELINGS regarding this incident, because we can clearly see this has taken a toll on her. But Caiti's feeling are Valid does not = George is a predator so Cancel him. The debate regarding the leaving out details/ embellishing her story/ faking screenshots, while yes can be said to be have done to soften the blow on Caiti, but what it also did was increase the hate George got many many more times and I think it's fair to criticise it. Believe the Victim, believe that everything Caiti is feeling is valid. But believing a victim is different than believing all the victims claims 100% without a doubt. The same way everyone can empathise with a SA Victim, but if that victim goes to a normal workplace HR and tries to fire the guy with the basis of "I didn't show my discomfort because I just knew that it would be a blow to his ego" with no basis for why you thought that guy had ego in the first place, they wouldn't be readily accepted. It's the same thing here. Her feelings are valid, but not a valid reason to assert George's INTENT. She can be a victim where the "perpetuator" didn't have malicious thoughts. Both the people here can be good people
It doesn't matter if both people are good or not. What is being discussed is the nature of the action and how it's discussed. It doesn't matter if George is a good person or not, he's allegedly done something shitty.
Can we clearly see the impact it had? It is probably the worst acting I have ever seen. I think the negative reaction to her terrible acting has had an impact. But the actual event?
What shitty thing did he do? To go along with non verbal cues she gave to him whole night? Assuming she is comfortable based on her kept coming back to him multiple times after his touch & following him to elevator?@@8lec_R
I also feel that another harmful narrative being used is the one of minimizing the situation. Many people say "He just touched her waist", both caiti and george established that he touched under her shirt, and he even said in the video that he went upwards. If someone hugged or cuddled with me, and puts their arm around my waist I may or may not feel uncomfortable, it depends. But if someone (like a person I just met) puts their hand under my shirt I would most definitely feel awful, even more if it was done in public. I would freak out even if it was my boyfriend(someone who I know and trust) who did that in a room with other people present. It is like she has no right to complain or feel bad about the non consensual touching, because she was not brutally assaulted by force. Obviously I was not there with them nor am i in their heads, so I do not know exactly how it happened, but it feels like another typical narrative being used so I wanted to share my thoughts. PS: Great video!! I think it was really necessary to point out the harmful ways in which some people are talking about the situation, so thank you!
She‘s allowed to be regretful and have bad feelings about it but when she‘s making it public and pretty much threatening the guy‘s career ofcourse people are goong to respond. Fuck it the threatening his career isn‘t even necessary. Just her accusing him publicly will warrant a response from him
The absolute death of emotional maturity and basic social skills leading to people to throw their hands up and say stuff like you should sign full-on contracts is just peak neoliberalism. I can't hahaha Like, the 2 choices aren't animalistic mindless banging or cold legal paperwork before you even thouch eachother. This is the kind of thinking that just wouldn't and couldn't survive outside the internet. The need to touch grass is SO GREAT.
Tom has been feeding the internet outrage/ drama machine since he was 17, he's the epitome of an emotionally stunted Leafy clone. It's not surprising that he approaches real-world problems using the same slop format, considering that's what he was weaned on.
@@datamale A video on the literal brainrot the internet and social media might be called for then :D because it wouldn't be happening if it wasn't profitable; stupidity as a commodity exchanged for regressive cultural force that bolsters capital itself. Hmm.
I used to like TurkeyTom at first I thought oh he’s close to my age and seems to know what he’s talking about but not even a year into watching him I slowly grew to dislikes his takes and how he would brush certain situations as not a big deal
Thank you for continuing to explain the reality of sexual assault. None of this news to me, I'm a woman, most of my close friends have been AFAB, I have 4 daughters. I've dealt with the reality of sexual assault more times than I care to remember. None of those times have involved a perfect victim. There is no such thing! It's not when you're at your finest when it happens. It's when you're vulnerable. Drunk, high, asleep, upset, alone, uncomfortable, out of your usual environment..... There are a million reasons why victims don't report. For me & mine it's been fear of not being believed, being without the support I needed, in shock, emotionally unable to cope with the 2nd assault of reporting, knowing I wont be taken seriously....the list is endless TBH but thank you for shining a light on the reality of sexual assault as its prevalence
I'm so sorry for your experiences. I hope that we as a society can learn to move away from these lazy stereotypes that do nothing but cement us in outdated, anti-victim ways of thinking.
@@datamale Thank you. I've not suffered overly tho I've worked with homeless young people, I've seen the real horrors in the world These videos are part of how it changes, imo. I appreciate you talking about this from this pov. It helps Talking about the reality of what victims look like, sounds like & behaves like helps.
I agree that this is a problem. But this is one of the worst possible cases to bring it up dude. I would agree with everything you said if you and Tom dark and the people you are criticizing were talking about any other case. I would agree if what happened to her was anything remotely close to sexual assault. But it clearly is not. For this case specifically, saying things like "that is your fault" is not only not wrong, but is the only reasonable response, because what happened cannot possibly be freezing up as a reaction to being assaulted, this is a person who is so shy and sensitive that is not capable to express that she felt uncomfortable for being slightly touched on the skin arround her waist after cuddling and being flirty with a dude for an hour. There comes a point where if you literally can't handle having a normal flirting interaction with someone else then you should take responsibility for that and not get into those situations, instead of assign blame to other people for assuming you were a normal person when you interacted with them without letting them know you were so incapable of dealing with normal people. All this to say that this criticism doesn't make sense in this case, if you showed me they were saying these things to anyone that could at the very least, in the slightest way possible, be considered a victim of SA, then I would side with you, but it is not the case.
I get your skepticism for this particular case and I do get where you're coming from after hearing the other sides of the story. The issue that this vid is reflecting on is about tom's reaction to her account alone (whether it be false or exaggerated or not). He is addressing her response by using harmful preconceptions about SA which are the foundations of rape culture. He's not presenting an alternative account which contradicts hers - he's using these tools to bludgeon the idea that someone can be SA'd in public, that there is no such thing as coercion and power imbalance, and is overall victim blaming her by shaming the decisions she made and the situation she went into. Like I said, I do get where you're coming from with the context of how this scandal played out and the other versions of events. But you need to separate what you know about that from the precedent that reactions like tom's set. What Tom is doing is very different to refuting what happened based on evidence - he is arguing that even if everything she said happened is true and accurate, that she would not be a victim of rape culture in some way or form. I completely disagree with that. If everything happened as she described, what George did would NOT be okay. (i.e. Very famous peer in your niche who is older and far more sexually experienced than you initiates unconsentual and uncomfortable physical contact, plus male/female dynamic on top). Tom's suspicion in these clips is based on the rape culture ideas of being a victim and not on the refuting of the story based on conflicting evidence. Tom uses victim blaming and fallacies to criticise verbal consent. Its entirely possible to criticise caity from a perspective which doesn't ideologically strengthen the stereotypes of rape culture (as some people are). Like you said, you don't buy what she claims at all. But that's based on the evidence that was debunked or a more compelling alternate version of events etc. You didn't decide she is not a legitimate victim based on the fact that she was stupid to get drunk and go to a party or that she should have just said no out loud I hope? But that's what Tom is essentially doing. He's delegitimising her by appealing to lazy stereotypes.
@@sugarjxd I mean if you're gonna flirt with someone and not object when they touch you then you're gonna give a guy the impression you're consenting ain't ya? Yes it's incumbent upon the guy to use his best judgment on whether a woman's comfortable with what's going on or not but it's a party, people are drinking and judgment can get messy. You don't have to scream NO like you're in a 1990s PSA but making your boundaries clear makes things a lot easier for everyone.
@@rdrrr I agree that things get messy when everyone's drunk at a party. That's why using lazy stereotypes about perfect victimhood to judge who to believe or not is a lack in critical thinking on tom's part.
@@sugarjxd Yeah I don't doubt that Tom used scumbag reasoning, but I do take issue with the modern idea that it's entirely incumbent upon men to read the situation, divine what the intentions of the other person are even if they're not making it clear and take all the blame for making someone feel uncomfortable if things go wrong. It's not about victims having to be perfect, it's about everyone making their boundaries clear. Men just aren't as good at reading subtler cues as women are. Basically, I'm just not sure about the whole intersection of "believe women" and "it's men's responsibility not to make women uncomfortable". I really do think it's easier to be gay. This sort of shit is much rarer because men are hornier and don't camouflage their intentions as much. You can rest assured that if a dude is acting like he wants to fuck, then he actually does want to fuck. No need to fight off murky internet allegations. Sounds great to me!
@@sugarjxd I guess we understand what he said differently, because the stream where tomdark said all this things I am pretty sure happened after all the response were given, after all the lies and manipulation were demonstrated, so like you said "if what she said happend like she said it would be bad" but it absolutely didn't, and this reaction happened after we all found out, so when I watch that video I see it directed at someones lies not at a possible SA victim. It is really mean and unforgiving and it has no filters, but then again, this is like this, not because he thinks people cant be raped or should be perfect victims, but he is being like that as a consequence of having seen all the ways she lied and manipulated audiences. I can say that she for sure manipulated me, at the beginning I was on her side, but after a while it became sooo clear to me how she manipulated everything to sound a thousand times worse than it was, so she just lost almost all sympathy from me. And I am not saying Tom has done nothing wrong here, I do think some of this things are criticizable, but like I said at flrst, this is the worst case to be doing that. This Tom reaction is not perfect, but I am not expecting a perfect reaction to someone being so malicious just as I would not expect perfect victims.
The issue I see with his view on consent is that, as you mentioned, people are different about what they view as sexual. For many women, and also men, cuddling, hugging or even kissing is not an invitation to take things further without consent. Not to mention that consent, at any time, can be withdrawn. If someone is experiencing pain, wants to stop, is afraid, or they just show signs of discomfort or not reacting, then consent can be withdrawn and any person has to stop. Both men and women. Tom should know that fear can paralyze however. It's not always a reaction of fight or flight but also at times freezing up, panicking, fainting even on top of freezing. I'm aroace. And while that has nothing to do with my past experiences, all physical contact I want is automatically not sexual and I expect others not to go further than a hug without asking. Because even friends can hug and cuddle. Even without knowing my sexuality, it should be expected that the other also has to always assume that the nature of the contact isn't going beyond what it is at the time, no matter what someone may want or assumes another wants. If someone consents to a hug, then it stays a hug unless consenting on going further. That requires another permission, Tom. Not a contractual one but touching someone elsewhere and way more intimately is not a given just by allowing cuddling with clothes on. Because if someone automatically thinks further without even asking, then they can get in trouble, regardless of gender. Women also can't just touch a man anywhere else and shouldn't be made to think that all guys want the same. He's perpetuating that harmful stereotype to persist despite so many men fighting against that very view of some women viewing men as only wanting one thing. I've also been a victim of SA, twice. I was 6 and 14 respectively. At 6 I didn't know what was and wasn't normal and while it was "only" being touched by my godfather, it wasn't what I wanted but I also didn't know anything about sexuality at the time, like most children, it was a family friend so I likely even would have felt guilty for destroying a friendship because my parents would have believed me (though not all children have the confidence to be believed, which is one of the thoughts a lot of victims have and why there are so many unknown, unreported cases of SA on top) and it was just a case of feeezing up, not knowing what to do. And while at 14 I managed to run away due to a fence between my elderly neighbor and me, many men in particular, Tom included, seem to forget how easily an average man can overpower an average woman. They don't realize that we often don't even have the strength to struggle. That fear can make your muscles feel weak and trembling can make it hard to bring up even normal strength. He is also acting like all people will just stop when you tell them to. Consent is important. It's not about a contract but always checking up on each other, ideally not just once, and especially when someone shows signs of their behavior changing. This is called being considerate. Both men and women want to feel like someone cares enough to ask if all is well, if it's comfortable and such questions don't ruin the mood. In fact, it can ease fears or nervousness to know the other person is willing to put their own wants aside to prioritize their partner's feelings of security, happiness, and comfort. I can't say who is right and who isn't in the case of these two. I don't want to judge that without knowing either of them. A lot of cases have no physical evidence either. Like mine hadn't. I went to the police anyway but in the end it was one account against the other. While I went right away, others may be afraid of consequences. They might not remember fully and don't want to say anything wrong, be it due to being drugged, taking substances on their own, etc. Others may develop some form of traumatic amnesia. Or no one around believes them so they think the police won't eiter. Or feeling ashamed, embarrassed, scared,... Depending on culture, race, etc., they might also fear discrimination or other repercussions. If they have a partner, they might fear disgust from them even if they didn't cheat nor had cheating in mind. Every situation is different. While innocent people don't deserve to be accused, victims also should be believed without either side being treated with a bias. Like a victim doesn't deserve more trauma but stereotypes also shouldn't lead to innocent people being convicted and guilty ones running free. But the issue is, sometimes there is no real physical evidence that won't be destroyed in court as some sort of revenge plan even if it was real. Because SA can even happen between married couples. Sometimes it is revenge, sometimes it isn't without knowing how to prove you're the victim or you're innocent when you haven't done anything. It all isn't black and white so both sides need to be treated respectfully without outright blaming them. While innocent until proven guilty should always apply, it would also be wrong to accuse the victim of faking it without being certain just because they don't fulfill arbitrary criteria and stereotypes. What many don't understand is that physical evidence isn't always clear. Often you can determine that some things have taken place but not in which circumstances. It's why I want to leave this to professionals to investigate rather than some person's ideas of what a "real victim" looks like. Stereotypes harm all sides. Being shy or freezing up isn't abnormal and the inability to consider other reactions is not a good personality trait. Especially if he has never been in such a situation himself. No one deserves SA just because they can't speak up or struggle. Rather, asking for consent should be normalized. Not to mention that some may not speak up because the other person is a person of authority or more powerful. And yes, having more followers, subscribers, etc. also counts as a form of power where victims may be pressured into silence or indirectly threatened. Not by them directly but perhaps their fans. Acting like his thoughts are the norm is honestly problematic. No, not every man thinks of more while cuddling. Generalizations are terrible. Especially when you see many men writing they just want someone to cuddle with. It shines a bad light on men and making Tom seem like someone to be wary off instead. Because it's also clear that women can be very different in their thought processes as well. And everyone, no matter the gender, deserves the respect to be asked for consent first. Saying otherwise only enables SA and while I'm not saying that it was his intention, pushing the blame on someone who can't read minds and might be too shy to speak up is not making Tom look any better as a commentator. It gives the same impression as those saying that a girl asked for it if she wears more revealing clothes, even if it may not have been his intention to seem that way. Many women are afraid of men or at least cautious around them exactly because so many people stay stuff like that without thinking. Not to mention that it makes male victims even more hesitant to speak up, too. Because not all male victims are victims of women but other men as well. I'm very critical of his stance on this. It seems insensitive, biased, stereotypical and it's not going to make people feel safer around him if he cannot graps how consent works. That it's not necessarily a formal contract.
i watched that video tom posted and when has yapping about the sa part i really lost a lot of respect for him, like dwag fr, i feel like that’s a huge fuck you to his community of sa victims
Unfortunately it seems like that attitude is the norm. Things have to be the worst possible case for it to be considered "real", and even then victims face blame for it.
When you make a video I like to sort by newest in the comments to see unhinged takes from teens. It's always funny how they deliver their one liners with 100% conviction without even bothering to do the base minimum amount of research 😂
Hey I just want to say nice video I know that not every SA case has to be the extreme as I applaud your for talking about these extremes being passed around. Although I worry that another extreme is being passed around that is as harmful as the perfect victim stereotype which is caused by the Catibugzz situation. I find it hard to believe that this situation is an SA case and fear that if this becomes the new standard then it’ll unintentionally drown out actual victims and blow up simple incidents way out of proportion.
i say this as a person who is kinda iffy about caiti at this point, i love this video. it bothers me so much how people are talking about this situation. its helps no one and it will make harder for victims to come forward. i think there are stuff we should question more in caitis replies (like faked/wrong messages bc what?) but saying 'oh its your fault' is crazy
There's a few reasons, especially in provable occurrences of assault. Details might be omitted because of the circumstances under which the assault occurred, be it alcohol/ drug consumption that impedes memory, or even the complainant trying to hide those activities because they don't want to be blamed or charged with some illegal activity as a result of coming forward with their story. There's also a factor of embarrassment, wherein the specifics of the crime are changed to preserve the victim's sense of dignity for themselves. Victims in provable cases also often lie, or make changes to the story that align it more closely with what police think a "real assault" looks like, so that they have a better chance of finding justice or being believed. It's sad, because their intent is to have their stories be taken more seriously, but often has the opposite effect. It's a side effect of the investigative process being heavily skewed against the victim, far beyond any reasonable amount of "innocent until proven guilty", towards a straight up assumption that victims are ALWAYS lying. You can find more about it in the documents linked here: Information on why details may be wrong/ provably false here: www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications/2018-10/Lisak-False-Reports-Moving-beyond.pdf Information on red flags: evawintl.org/wp-content/uploads/SAR10-4-3VAWA2005RestrictsPolygraphs.pdf
@@datamalebut she didn’t lie about what happened to her or why she did something, she lied about georgenotfound and what he did which is really weird, you can be ashamed of your action and how you acted but lying about actions that traumatized you is weird.
@@datamale I can agree that victims can be embarrassed or forget certain aspects but certain details like Caiti and her best friend cant agree if they were actually drunk before the party, or saying she's freshly 18 even though she was 18 and 6 months old. Hinting that George and his friends essentially forced them to drink even though it was in fact her friends. She also didn't mention cuddling or the phone drinking party game etc. it wasn't just embarrassment or forgetting small details but her intentionally changing details of a story to make her side seem more believable and George more of a bad guy. She left out so much context or just straight up lied even after writing the documents an d talking to all her friends that were there that night
she also lied about being forced to drink. omitted the cuddling and left out the party drinking game they were playing also her and her best friend cant agree if they were drunk before the party or not@@manu-animation-924
@@datamalethere are literal texts where Caiti admits at first to not being upset by the encounter. And now she's traumatized and that's somehow George's fault even tho she didn't realize it herself until she talked to her friends after the fact?
the reason I do NOT believe Caiti bugs is the people who were there, and who practically said the opposite of what caiti bugs said and heard constant change in stories of upping the anti
@@truth7225 her friend said that she saw someone writing on their phone that a person in the party was feeling uncomfortable, Caiti tweeted that, rue her friend admitted to lying to make Caiti feel better, is what happened, no one in the party spoke out about it as u claim
When investigating a sexual assault, there are certain relevant factors to consider: The part of the body touched The nature of the contact The situation in which the contact occurred The words and gestures accompanying the act All other circumstances surrounding the act Any threats that may or may not be accompanied by force As of right now, Catie has not presented enough information to say, she was sexually assaulted, and that Georgenotfound was predatory as she said in her video/tweets/presented discord messages. Still waiting for her to present something that would convince me otherwise.
@@datamale in law you have to demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that 1. A guilty Act occurred, and for rape 2. intent to commit a guilty act. The alcohol in both of their systems shows a guilty act did not occur and there was no intent to commit a guilty act On top of that, Catie's story does not line up with literally anyone else there. Touching someones belly while cuddling is just.. not sexual assault. Cuddling is implied consent to touch someones belly, and it wasn't sexual touching. battery at the worst but even thats doubtful. She is not a victim
You can't expect people to know how to recognise a freeze response, even trained psychologists can't assess these kinds of things with perfect accuracy. Also not a single word of support for the actual victim in the situation, bravo dude. This video is worth about as much as the people screaming about metoo being bad during rape allegations.
right. caiti is valid for feeling the way she did but you can’t expect the average person to instantly recognize that?? especially if both parties are drunk???? the fact that people are still “debating” george’s innocent and dragging him despite him coming out with proof that she faked her evidence is ridiculous and the exact reason why we need to be more cautious about allegations like this.
I was waiting for someone to call him out bc he's so annoying and victim blames so frickin hard. I was in his chat correcting him but no matter what he kept ignoring everyone that was correcting him and only responding to the ppl agreeing with him, I felt so bad for Caiti and real-life victims looking at his comments and I just had to block his channel bc it bowls my blood so much just even seeing his face or channel on my recommended. his wording made me feel gross as a victim, I even started crying trying to correct him in chat bc I was so frustrated, and I know its cringe but that's just the reality of it.
I personally believe that coming out on the internet, you should be prepared for public scrutiny. The best advice would be to have victims get their story straight, which is usually the advice lawyers will give because it prevents any contradictions from happening. Contradictions are dangerous and doesn't matter if the victims are genuine or not. It is used in courts to discredit victims. Caiti's situation is just a perfect example of false accusation brings out the worst in everyone. We went back to being "she was drunk," "she should've said no." I don't believe Caiti's story due to just how odd her story is. She even admitted to getting up twice which was weird and going back because she didn't want to hurt his ego. It was proven of that she was texting comfortably with George for weeks, which I'm surprised no one talked about and she was supposed to be shy I guess. But I do agree that we can criticize Caiti without hurting victims and falling into stereotypes which was what qe fought so hard against.
Yeeah, no. For a different example I'd be with you but this issue is such a clear cut nothingburger that it comes all the way around to Caitibugzz being the abusive one. Having your tummy tickled after hours of cuddling is not any kind of assault no matter what the intention of either party is
(Copy pasted from another comment because this is how I feel about this) On the contrary, I think this is the perfect time to bring these things up. This being such a "small" case compared to other instances means that people are WAY more likely to associate these red flags with a publicly discredited story. Regardless of the truth of this case, we CANNOT start associating these traits with fabricated stories, that's how we lead to the same long-running stereotypes that only serve to harm victims in the long run.
The only red flag in this situation comes from people thinking it’s ok to take an awkward social moment and turn it into an online harassment campaign.
The worst part of the video is that it made me listen to Turkey Tom's infuriating tasteless nonsense Aside from that, I really appreciate your arguments here. The responsibility of content creators cannot be overstated, especially those who appeal to younger demographics through their focus on "drama" and opinionated "reactions" to it. It's not the details of situations such as these that unsettle me - for all I know, Caitibugzz's story could be entirely fabricated and deserving of criticism - but rather the tone of the discussion and the language they normalise. It's rare for these cases to be treated with the tact they should always deserve, regardless of veracity; instead, they only succeed in reaffirming and spreading a dangerous attitude of standoffishness and preemptive defensiveness, an obsessive refusal to self-examinate and question one's own convictions, occasionally bordering on cruel derision (and in many cases, let's be honest, accompanied by a good dose of misogyny, as a treat).
Tbh I think there’s some truth in the accusations like in the first vod she implied he touched her chest it just went over alot of commentators heads and then notice how streamers that have been around them have been on caitis side like Brooke,ninichu and Shubble mind you shubble was dating someone close to that circle so she most likely was around him frequently.
i feel like im going insane with all of the victim blaming im seeing online & the twisting of her story. when did it turn to “ticking”?? what happened to silence is not consent? or that being drunk isnt consent?! anyways, thank you so much for making this video.
These "stereotypes" are what you chose by going through the court of public opinion instead of the court of law, choose the latter next time. Re-enforce until public accusations stop!
The problem is assuming that these stereotypes hold any water, when they often don't. Once again, we can't afford to use Caiti's story as an excuse to disregard every similar experience someone has, when they're often found in many valid accusations. And again, it's common for victims to make accusations in places OTHER than a police investigation, due to how ineffective and violating police investigations can be, to the point that it's been referred to as the "second assault" for years now. Validating these stereotypes as cause to disregard victim's stories is nothing more than collective punishment for every victim whose story shares traits with Caiti's.
But thank you for this video! I kept seeing videos saying she's a liar and ruined his career. Decided to look into it myself and I don't see where the argument fans keep making is. Dream, Ghostie, Caiti, George, and others who were there said it happened. Fans who weren't there keep saying it never did. Plus there's the argument fans keep using where they said "Ghostie said they were sober before going to the hotel room", yet Ghostie made a follow up tweet correcting this by saying she forgot they did drink before going to the Vidcon 18+ event. The event was also 18+, despite fans claiming 21 - something only fans keep saying. I understood the logic behind XqC's message, although it was irrelevant to the story. Fans are using XqCs argument to say "George was drunk therefore couldn't consent either" despite him being the one who initiated and attempted / succeeded at touching under her shirt. Trying to point out inconsistencies in what fans have said feels like speaking to a brick wall. They just can't listen to reason. But once again, thanks for the being the only creator who seemed to take a middle ground!
huh???!!!! The people there literally said she was very into it, consenting, etc etc. "initiation attempt etc" isn't proof of intent when drunk, especially when she was obviously into it too. saying the fans are inconsistent while you lie about what happened lol
@Chocobiscuitbeanie the event was 18+, but you need a 21+ wristband to drink alcohol. It's the same every year, it didn't magically change that year lol
If one is drunk you MUST assume that that person cannot consent to sexual acts properly. In this case, Caiti did not even give VERBAL consent the most basic type of consent. Plus take into account that this was the first time they met? Would you expect sexual acts with a near stranger to be acceptable when the only type of consent given was vague body language? Sd much as they want to make excuses for George we can equally make the same amount of excuses for Caiti. The fact is that many of these streamers and social media acolytes is that to accept that you could've sexually assaulted someone is like directly knowing to jail. Albeit this is the culture of the internet, if George had worked on understanding the dangers of creating this culture of reducing sexual assault confessions to blank statements, he could've not only ended this Incel debate but he would simultaneously evolve his online character to someone with immense depth and understanding.
Yeah but get your facts straight both were drunk first so it’s invalidating the rest of what you are saying and non verbal is a thing the most explicit consent are actions and written permissions (you can search it in google) and cuddling for hours is a non verbal consent considered like action. Moreover she came at him when he was drunk why dsont you apply it also she started cuddling when he was drunk if we use your logic she sa’ed gnf. Get a gf.
She literally agreed to cuddle with George and didn't find anything wrong with it she already consented to it both of them were drunk and the cuddling was consensual.
Show me anyone who defines. Rape victim like you said people do. Can u give even one example of anyone saying that. There should be police report after crime and evidence. If there is evidence it doesn't matter if victim lies.
Something you missed out that is getting parroted around by Dream fans "Dream was innocent therefore George is" The idea that one of them was "falsely accused" (again not proven, all his video did was "prove" people can fake screenshots and that his family was targeted by people who hate him), therefore all victims must be lying about it. I saw the same thing with BijuuMike. I don't know if the allegations against Mike were true, but his argument was that the girl had no evidence and that he's sick of people being falsely accused, which his fans mopped right up and bombarded the girl with hate, to the point she hid her account.
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AUTHOR'S CLARIFICATION BELOW:
Towards the end of the video at 12:30 I mention that Tom says "That's your fault" regarding the Freeze response. Whilst he does say this, it's actually in response to Caiti describing that she felt too shy to express discomfort.
I don't want to misrepresent Tom's words, so I wanted to clarify the exact context. However, my statement still stands. Citing a victim's inaction has long been used to place blame for an assault on them. Tom gets dangerously close to parroting this rhetoric, so I stand by my criticism of his wording and attitude there.
I thought I would entirely disagree with this video but as always you are 100% correct about everything basically. There are plenty of ways to talk about how Caiti is being overly dramatic/manipulated at best, or malicious at worst, without falling into harmful stereotypes around perfect victims.
FYI this video is about recognising when commentators are using the stereotypes of rape culture to delegitimise victims - not about whether you think caity is disingenuous
You cannot divorce the video from the caity situation if it is literally about it. The point is obviously what you say, but the context to make that point is the worst context possible.
Maybe talk about how victims get delegitimised when a victim is getting delegitimised. That way you can help a victim, but this video comes when the point is weakest and not useful at all. But what do I know.
Another Caity apologist, get over it, Tom legit says nothing bad, she lied he didn’t, drama over ban the b1ch
Can’t separate the art from the artist
We're seeing this all over again with Drake Bell. After the documentary came out, everyone's chosen to flip sides and forget about the allegations made against him. It's like the public just can't fathom the idea of someone being both a victim and an abuser at the same time. If you're a victim, you must be an angel that can do no wrong, and stay in the "perfect victim box."
I dont really know much about this specific case (so wont comment on it at all) but I think that its worth adding that the "fight or flight" response is slightly wider these days, fight, flight, freeze or fawn (also including flag and faint in some models). The fawn case being someone becoming ultra compliant in order to avoid potential harms associated with being non compliant (and I think this response is even more highly scrutinised than freeze because its viewed as a sign of active consent to be compliant, anyone I know who had a fawn response to their 'incident' never reported it because they felt there was no plausible case given that response).
The fact that only "immediate attempt to run" or "attempt to fight back" are the supposed 'only valid claims' and Tom's "if you cant reliably be a 'good victim' or avoid being a victim" is just scary, the idea of the "weak" being unable to exist without fear of being assaulted, and then these same people will turn around and get mad at you for saying grape culture exists.
Nice video, sad it exists.
That's really valuable information, thanks so much for sharing.
This is why I think affirmative consent is so important, if you really care about the other person, what's the harm in checking in with them?
People love to talk about "feeling the vibe" until it comes to understanding the feelings of the person they'e with. Then it becomes impossible for them to tell, I guess.
I don't think the fawn escapes from the hunter numerous times and then goes back to him.
Yes. she is so traumatized that night which is why she kept coming back him,following him to elevator & flirting with him on chats for days.
So traumatized that she now lies that he made her drink & followed him to elevator & lies that she didn't gave non verbal concent.
all semantics to an autistic lvl i love it xo
@@michaelh878wow way to not read anything and make up a scenario that doesn’t even relate to the idea outside of sounding similar. Very smart.
Sexual assault is not a literal hunter vs prey situation like a guy taking down a deer - and it’s pretty gross red flag on you to describe it like that - it’s a *specific kind of predation*, a concept which has multiple different variations beyond literally just being aggressive and attacking. The fawn thing not existing in animals is also something you’re also wrong about, by the way. Animals are capable of showing compliance and subservience in order to avoid being hurt, especially among their own kind or animals that want to take things like food or territory from them. They’re also plenty capable of forming attachments to the things that hurt them; abused dogs will still stay with their masters who hit them, wolves will stay with a pack that bullies them, etc.
I think the issue when it comes to SA claims around internet figures is that, it automatically turns into more than just believing the Victim and goes hand and hand with ruining the other persons livelihood. What I mean by that, is that in this scenario I think it's wrong to invalidate Caiti's FEELINGS regarding this incident, because we can clearly see this has taken a toll on her. But Caiti's feeling are Valid does not = George is a predator so Cancel him. The debate regarding the leaving out details/ embellishing her story/ faking screenshots, while yes can be said to be have done to soften the blow on Caiti, but what it also did was increase the hate George got many many more times and I think it's fair to criticise it.
Believe the Victim, believe that everything Caiti is feeling is valid.
But believing a victim is different than believing all the victims claims 100% without a doubt. The same way everyone can empathise with a SA Victim, but if that victim goes to a normal workplace HR and tries to fire the guy with the basis of "I didn't show my discomfort because I just knew that it would be a blow to his ego" with no basis for why you thought that guy had ego in the first place, they wouldn't be readily accepted. It's the same thing here. Her feelings are valid, but not a valid reason to assert George's INTENT. She can be a victim where the "perpetuator" didn't have malicious thoughts. Both the people here can be good people
this video doesn't assert George's intent. why you tripping?
It doesn't matter if both people are good or not. What is being discussed is the nature of the action and how it's discussed. It doesn't matter if George is a good person or not, he's allegedly done something shitty.
Can we clearly see the impact it had? It is probably the worst acting I have ever seen. I think the negative reaction to her terrible acting has had an impact. But the actual event?
What shitty thing did he do? To go along with non verbal cues she gave to him whole night? Assuming she is comfortable based on her kept coming back to him multiple times after his touch & following him to elevator?@@8lec_R
funny because rich people have the status to actually rebuild after false accusations.
regular people don't, they are invisible to yall
I also feel that another harmful narrative being used is the one of minimizing the situation. Many people say "He just touched her waist", both caiti and george established that he touched under her shirt, and he even said in the video that he went upwards.
If someone hugged or cuddled with me, and puts their arm around my waist I may or may not feel uncomfortable, it depends. But if someone (like a person I just met) puts their hand under my shirt I would most definitely feel awful, even more if it was done in public. I would freak out even if it was my boyfriend(someone who I know and trust) who did that in a room with other people present.
It is like she has no right to complain or feel bad about the non consensual touching, because she was not brutally assaulted by force. Obviously I was not there with them nor am i in their heads, so I do not know exactly how it happened, but it feels like another typical narrative being used so I wanted to share my thoughts.
PS: Great video!! I think it was really necessary to point out the harmful ways in which some people are talking about the situation, so thank you!
He touched her tummy Another Caity apologist, get over it, Tom legit says nothing bad, she lied he didn’t, drama over ban the b1ch
please go outside
Wrong
"He went upward" that’s her words but in fact the most upward he went was her belly after hours of cuddling
She‘s allowed to be regretful and have bad feelings about it but when she‘s making it public and pretty much threatening the guy‘s career ofcourse people are goong to respond. Fuck it the threatening his career isn‘t even necessary. Just her accusing him publicly will warrant a response from him
TurkeyTom be like: If you're assaulted, just say no.
The absolute death of emotional maturity and basic social skills leading to people to throw their hands up and say stuff like you should sign full-on contracts is just peak neoliberalism. I can't hahaha
Like, the 2 choices aren't animalistic mindless banging or cold legal paperwork before you even thouch eachother. This is the kind of thinking that just wouldn't and couldn't survive outside the internet. The need to touch grass is SO GREAT.
Tom has been feeding the internet outrage/ drama machine since he was 17, he's the epitome of an emotionally stunted Leafy clone.
It's not surprising that he approaches real-world problems using the same slop format, considering that's what he was weaned on.
@@datamale A video on the literal brainrot the internet and social media might be called for then :D because it wouldn't be happening if it wasn't profitable; stupidity as a commodity exchanged for regressive cultural force that bolsters capital itself. Hmm.
@@datamale wow... replied and it got autodeleted... ok :(
Another Caity apologist, get over it, Tom legit says nothing bad, she lied he didn’t, drama over ban the b1ch
@@datamale1; he said nothing wrong
2; he doenst like leafy
I used to like TurkeyTom at first I thought oh he’s close to my age and seems to know what he’s talking about but not even a year into watching him I slowly grew to dislikes his takes and how he would brush certain situations as not a big deal
Another Caity apologist, get over it, Tom legit says nothing bad, she lied he didn’t, drama over ban the b1ch
His new destiny video gave me this same impression.
@@MikeNMash glazing
Thank you for continuing to explain the reality of sexual assault.
None of this news to me, I'm a woman, most of my close friends have been AFAB, I have 4 daughters. I've dealt with the reality of sexual assault more times than I care to remember. None of those times have involved a perfect victim.
There is no such thing!
It's not when you're at your finest when it happens. It's when you're vulnerable. Drunk, high, asleep, upset, alone, uncomfortable, out of your usual environment.....
There are a million reasons why victims don't report. For me & mine it's been fear of not being believed, being without the support I needed, in shock, emotionally unable to cope with the 2nd assault of reporting, knowing I wont be taken seriously....the list is endless TBH but thank you for shining a light on the reality of sexual assault as its prevalence
I'm so sorry for your experiences.
I hope that we as a society can learn to move away from these lazy stereotypes that do nothing but cement us in outdated, anti-victim ways of thinking.
@@datamale Thank you. I've not suffered overly tho I've worked with homeless young people, I've seen the real horrors in the world
These videos are part of how it changes, imo. I appreciate you talking about this from this pov. It helps
Talking about the reality of what victims look like, sounds like & behaves like helps.
Another Caity apologist, get over it, Tom legit says nothing bad, she lied he didn’t, drama over ban the b1ch
So u think what happened to caiti is SA?
@@AskMe-fl2sm I have literally no idea. Nor is it my place to say.
He's not "anti-vocal consent", he's making fun of the claim that it's the only method of communicating consent.
No he’s definitely anti vocal. All you have to do is ask.
I agree that this is a problem. But this is one of the worst possible cases to bring it up dude.
I would agree with everything you said if you and Tom dark and the people you are criticizing were talking about any other case. I would agree if what happened to her was anything remotely close to sexual assault. But it clearly is not.
For this case specifically, saying things like "that is your fault" is not only not wrong, but is the only reasonable response, because what happened cannot possibly be freezing up as a reaction to being assaulted, this is a person who is so shy and sensitive that is not capable to express that she felt uncomfortable for being slightly touched on the skin arround her waist after cuddling and being flirty with a dude for an hour.
There comes a point where if you literally can't handle having a normal flirting interaction with someone else then you should take responsibility for that and not get into those situations, instead of assign blame to other people for assuming you were a normal person when you interacted with them without letting them know you were so incapable of dealing with normal people.
All this to say that this criticism doesn't make sense in this case, if you showed me they were saying these things to anyone that could at the very least, in the slightest way possible, be considered a victim of SA, then I would side with you, but it is not the case.
I get your skepticism for this particular case and I do get where you're coming from after hearing the other sides of the story. The issue that this vid is reflecting on is about tom's reaction to her account alone (whether it be false or exaggerated or not). He is addressing her response by using harmful preconceptions about SA which are the foundations of rape culture. He's not presenting an alternative account which contradicts hers - he's using these tools to bludgeon the idea that someone can be SA'd in public, that there is no such thing as coercion and power imbalance, and is overall victim blaming her by shaming the decisions she made and the situation she went into.
Like I said, I do get where you're coming from with the context of how this scandal played out and the other versions of events. But you need to separate what you know about that from the precedent that reactions like tom's set. What Tom is doing is very different to refuting what happened based on evidence - he is arguing that even if everything she said happened is true and accurate, that she would not be a victim of rape culture in some way or form. I completely disagree with that. If everything happened as she described, what George did would NOT be okay. (i.e. Very famous peer in your niche who is older and far more sexually experienced than you initiates unconsentual and uncomfortable physical contact, plus male/female dynamic on top).
Tom's suspicion in these clips is based on the rape culture ideas of being a victim and not on the refuting of the story based on conflicting evidence. Tom uses victim blaming and fallacies to criticise verbal consent. Its entirely possible to criticise caity from a perspective which doesn't ideologically strengthen the stereotypes of rape culture (as some people are). Like you said, you don't buy what she claims at all. But that's based on the evidence that was debunked or a more compelling alternate version of events etc. You didn't decide she is not a legitimate victim based on the fact that she was stupid to get drunk and go to a party or that she should have just said no out loud I hope? But that's what Tom is essentially doing. He's delegitimising her by appealing to lazy stereotypes.
@@sugarjxd I mean if you're gonna flirt with someone and not object when they touch you then you're gonna give a guy the impression you're consenting ain't ya?
Yes it's incumbent upon the guy to use his best judgment on whether a woman's comfortable with what's going on or not but it's a party, people are drinking and judgment can get messy.
You don't have to scream NO like you're in a 1990s PSA but making your boundaries clear makes things a lot easier for everyone.
@@rdrrr I agree that things get messy when everyone's drunk at a party. That's why using lazy stereotypes about perfect victimhood to judge who to believe or not is a lack in critical thinking on tom's part.
@@sugarjxd Yeah I don't doubt that Tom used scumbag reasoning, but I do take issue with the modern idea that it's entirely incumbent upon men to read the situation, divine what the intentions of the other person are even if they're not making it clear and take all the blame for making someone feel uncomfortable if things go wrong.
It's not about victims having to be perfect, it's about everyone making their boundaries clear. Men just aren't as good at reading subtler cues as women are. Basically, I'm just not sure about the whole intersection of "believe women" and "it's men's responsibility not to make women uncomfortable".
I really do think it's easier to be gay. This sort of shit is much rarer because men are hornier and don't camouflage their intentions as much. You can rest assured that if a dude is acting like he wants to fuck, then he actually does want to fuck. No need to fight off murky internet allegations. Sounds great to me!
@@sugarjxd I guess we understand what he said differently, because the stream where tomdark said all this things I am pretty sure happened after all the response were given, after all the lies and manipulation were demonstrated, so like you said "if what she said happend like she said it would be bad" but it absolutely didn't, and this reaction happened after we all found out, so when I watch that video I see it directed at someones lies not at a possible SA victim. It is really mean and unforgiving and it has no filters, but then again, this is like this, not because he thinks people cant be raped or should be perfect victims, but he is being like that as a consequence of having seen all the ways she lied and manipulated audiences.
I can say that she for sure manipulated me, at the beginning I was on her side, but after a while it became sooo clear to me how she manipulated everything to sound a thousand times worse than it was, so she just lost almost all sympathy from me.
And I am not saying Tom has done nothing wrong here, I do think some of this things are criticizable, but like I said at flrst, this is the worst case to be doing that.
This Tom reaction is not perfect, but I am not expecting a perfect reaction to someone being so malicious just as I would not expect perfect victims.
The issue I see with his view on consent is that, as you mentioned, people are different about what they view as sexual. For many women, and also men, cuddling, hugging or even kissing is not an invitation to take things further without consent.
Not to mention that consent, at any time, can be withdrawn. If someone is experiencing pain, wants to stop, is afraid, or they just show signs of discomfort or not reacting, then consent can be withdrawn and any person has to stop. Both men and women.
Tom should know that fear can paralyze however. It's not always a reaction of fight or flight but also at times freezing up, panicking, fainting even on top of freezing.
I'm aroace. And while that has nothing to do with my past experiences, all physical contact I want is automatically not sexual and I expect others not to go further than a hug without asking. Because even friends can hug and cuddle. Even without knowing my sexuality, it should be expected that the other also has to always assume that the nature of the contact isn't going beyond what it is at the time, no matter what someone may want or assumes another wants. If someone consents to a hug, then it stays a hug unless consenting on going further. That requires another permission, Tom. Not a contractual one but touching someone elsewhere and way more intimately is not a given just by allowing cuddling with clothes on.
Because if someone automatically thinks further without even asking, then they can get in trouble, regardless of gender. Women also can't just touch a man anywhere else and shouldn't be made to think that all guys want the same. He's perpetuating that harmful stereotype to persist despite so many men fighting against that very view of some women viewing men as only wanting one thing.
I've also been a victim of SA, twice. I was 6 and 14 respectively. At 6 I didn't know what was and wasn't normal and while it was "only" being touched by my godfather, it wasn't what I wanted but I also didn't know anything about sexuality at the time, like most children, it was a family friend so I likely even would have felt guilty for destroying a friendship because my parents would have believed me (though not all children have the confidence to be believed, which is one of the thoughts a lot of victims have and why there are so many unknown, unreported cases of SA on top) and it was just a case of feeezing up, not knowing what to do. And while at 14 I managed to run away due to a fence between my elderly neighbor and me, many men in particular, Tom included, seem to forget how easily an average man can overpower an average woman. They don't realize that we often don't even have the strength to struggle. That fear can make your muscles feel weak and trembling can make it hard to bring up even normal strength.
He is also acting like all people will just stop when you tell them to.
Consent is important. It's not about a contract but always checking up on each other, ideally not just once, and especially when someone shows signs of their behavior changing. This is called being considerate. Both men and women want to feel like someone cares enough to ask if all is well, if it's comfortable and such questions don't ruin the mood. In fact, it can ease fears or nervousness to know the other person is willing to put their own wants aside to prioritize their partner's feelings of security, happiness, and comfort.
I can't say who is right and who isn't in the case of these two. I don't want to judge that without knowing either of them. A lot of cases have no physical evidence either. Like mine hadn't. I went to the police anyway but in the end it was one account against the other. While I went right away, others may be afraid of consequences. They might not remember fully and don't want to say anything wrong, be it due to being drugged, taking substances on their own, etc. Others may develop some form of traumatic amnesia. Or no one around believes them so they think the police won't eiter. Or feeling ashamed, embarrassed, scared,... Depending on culture, race, etc., they might also fear discrimination or other repercussions. If they have a partner, they might fear disgust from them even if they didn't cheat nor had cheating in mind. Every situation is different.
While innocent people don't deserve to be accused, victims also should be believed without either side being treated with a bias. Like a victim doesn't deserve more trauma but stereotypes also shouldn't lead to innocent people being convicted and guilty ones running free.
But the issue is, sometimes there is no real physical evidence that won't be destroyed in court as some sort of revenge plan even if it was real. Because SA can even happen between married couples. Sometimes it is revenge, sometimes it isn't without knowing how to prove you're the victim or you're innocent when you haven't done anything. It all isn't black and white so both sides need to be treated respectfully without outright blaming them. While innocent until proven guilty should always apply, it would also be wrong to accuse the victim of faking it without being certain just because they don't fulfill arbitrary criteria and stereotypes.
What many don't understand is that physical evidence isn't always clear. Often you can determine that some things have taken place but not in which circumstances.
It's why I want to leave this to professionals to investigate rather than some person's ideas of what a "real victim" looks like. Stereotypes harm all sides.
Being shy or freezing up isn't abnormal and the inability to consider other reactions is not a good personality trait. Especially if he has never been in such a situation himself. No one deserves SA just because they can't speak up or struggle. Rather, asking for consent should be normalized. Not to mention that some may not speak up because the other person is a person of authority or more powerful. And yes, having more followers, subscribers, etc. also counts as a form of power where victims may be pressured into silence or indirectly threatened. Not by them directly but perhaps their fans.
Acting like his thoughts are the norm is honestly problematic. No, not every man thinks of more while cuddling. Generalizations are terrible. Especially when you see many men writing they just want someone to cuddle with. It shines a bad light on men and making Tom seem like someone to be wary off instead. Because it's also clear that women can be very different in their thought processes as well. And everyone, no matter the gender, deserves the respect to be asked for consent first. Saying otherwise only enables SA and while I'm not saying that it was his intention, pushing the blame on someone who can't read minds and might be too shy to speak up is not making Tom look any better as a commentator. It gives the same impression as those saying that a girl asked for it if she wears more revealing clothes, even if it may not have been his intention to seem that way.
Many women are afraid of men or at least cautious around them exactly because so many people stay stuff like that without thinking. Not to mention that it makes male victims even more hesitant to speak up, too. Because not all male victims are victims of women but other men as well.
I'm very critical of his stance on this. It seems insensitive, biased, stereotypical and it's not going to make people feel safer around him if he cannot graps how consent works. That it's not necessarily a formal contract.
i watched that video tom posted and when has yapping about the sa part i really lost a lot of respect for him, like dwag fr, i feel like that’s a huge fuck you to his community of sa victims
Unfortunately it seems like that attitude is the norm. Things have to be the worst possible case for it to be considered "real", and even then victims face blame for it.
Another Caity apologist, get over it, Tom legit says nothing bad, she lied he didn’t, drama over ban the b1ch
When you make a video I like to sort by newest in the comments to see unhinged takes from teens. It's always funny how they deliver their one liners with 100% conviction without even bothering to do the base minimum amount of research 😂
Hey I just want to say nice video I know that not every SA case has to be the extreme as I applaud your for talking about these extremes being passed around. Although I worry that another extreme is being passed around that is as harmful as the perfect victim stereotype which is caused by the Catibugzz situation. I find it hard to believe that this situation is an SA case and fear that if this becomes the new standard then it’ll unintentionally drown out actual victims and blow up simple incidents way out of proportion.
i say this as a person who is kinda iffy about caiti at this point, i love this video. it bothers me so much how people are talking about this situation. its helps no one and it will make harder for victims to come forward. i think there are stuff we should question more in caitis replies (like faked/wrong messages bc what?) but saying 'oh its your fault' is crazy
To me it's the fact Caiti as proven to have omitted and lied about a lot about the night, why would a victim do that
There's a few reasons, especially in provable occurrences of assault.
Details might be omitted because of the circumstances under which the assault occurred, be it alcohol/ drug consumption that impedes memory, or even the complainant trying to hide those activities because they don't want to be blamed or charged with some illegal activity as a result of coming forward with their story.
There's also a factor of embarrassment, wherein the specifics of the crime are changed to preserve the victim's sense of dignity for themselves.
Victims in provable cases also often lie, or make changes to the story that align it more closely with what police think a "real assault" looks like, so that they have a better chance of finding justice or being believed. It's sad, because their intent is to have their stories be taken more seriously, but often has the opposite effect.
It's a side effect of the investigative process being heavily skewed against the victim, far beyond any reasonable amount of "innocent until proven guilty", towards a straight up assumption that victims are ALWAYS lying.
You can find more about it in the documents linked here:
Information on why details may be wrong/ provably false here:
www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications/2018-10/Lisak-False-Reports-Moving-beyond.pdf
Information on red flags:
evawintl.org/wp-content/uploads/SAR10-4-3VAWA2005RestrictsPolygraphs.pdf
@@datamalebut she didn’t lie about what happened to her or why she did something, she lied about georgenotfound and what he did which is really weird, you can be ashamed of your action and how you acted but lying about actions that traumatized you is weird.
@@datamale I can agree that victims can be embarrassed or forget certain aspects but certain details like Caiti and her best friend cant agree if they were actually drunk before the party, or saying she's freshly 18 even though she was 18 and 6 months old. Hinting that George and his friends essentially forced them to drink even though it was in fact her friends. She also didn't mention cuddling or the phone drinking party game etc. it wasn't just embarrassment or forgetting small details but her intentionally changing details of a story to make her side seem more believable and George more of a bad guy. She left out so much context or just straight up lied even after writing the documents an d talking to all her friends that were there that night
she also lied about being forced to drink. omitted the cuddling and left out the party drinking game they were playing also her and her best friend cant agree if they were drunk before the party or not@@manu-animation-924
@@datamalethere are literal texts where Caiti admits at first to not being upset by the encounter. And now she's traumatized and that's somehow George's fault even tho she didn't realize it herself until she talked to her friends after the fact?
the reason I do NOT believe Caiti bugs is the people who were there, and who practically said the opposite of what caiti bugs said and heard constant change in stories of upping the anti
yeah she definitely lied to get something out of it
Oh really name those people. And the statements they made, because even dream was on her side
@@luvwsl Her friend and her during the day had stated it went well privately so yeah. And why did she make up a person to lie about it
@@truth7225 her friend said that she saw someone writing on their phone that a person in the party was feeling uncomfortable, Caiti tweeted that, rue her friend admitted to lying to make Caiti feel better, is what happened, no one in the party spoke out about it as u claim
When investigating a sexual assault, there are certain relevant factors to consider:
The part of the body touched
The nature of the contact
The situation in which the contact occurred
The words and gestures accompanying the act
All other circumstances surrounding the act
Any threats that may or may not be accompanied by force
As of right now, Catie has not presented enough information to say, she was sexually assaulted, and that Georgenotfound was predatory as she said in her video/tweets/presented discord messages. Still waiting for her to present something that would convince me otherwise.
Can I ask where you're pulling these factors from, or is it just what YOU think should be considered?
@@datamalethe source is his ass probably 😅
@@datamale in law you have to demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that 1. A guilty Act occurred, and for rape 2. intent to commit a guilty act.
The alcohol in both of their systems shows a guilty act did not occur and there was no intent to commit a guilty act
On top of that, Catie's story does not line up with literally anyone else there. Touching someones belly while cuddling is just.. not sexual assault. Cuddling is implied consent to touch someones belly, and it wasn't sexual touching. battery at the worst but even thats doubtful.
She is not a victim
You can't expect people to know how to recognise a freeze response, even trained psychologists can't assess these kinds of things with perfect accuracy.
Also not a single word of support for the actual victim in the situation, bravo dude.
This video is worth about as much as the people screaming about metoo being bad during rape allegations.
right. caiti is valid for feeling the way she did but you can’t expect the average person to instantly recognize that?? especially if both parties are drunk???? the fact that people are still “debating” george’s innocent and dragging him despite him coming out with proof that she faked her evidence is ridiculous and the exact reason why we need to be more cautious about allegations like this.
Another Caity apologist, get over it, Tom legit says nothing bad, she lied he didn’t, drama over ban the b1ch
I was waiting for someone to call him out bc he's so annoying and victim blames so frickin hard. I was in his chat correcting him but no matter what he kept ignoring everyone that was correcting him and only responding to the ppl agreeing with him, I felt so bad for Caiti and real-life victims looking at his comments and I just had to block his channel bc it bowls my blood so much just even seeing his face or channel on my recommended. his wording made me feel gross as a victim, I even started crying trying to correct him in chat bc I was so frustrated, and I know its cringe but that's just the reality of it.
I personally believe that coming out on the internet, you should be prepared for public scrutiny. The best advice would be to have victims get their story straight, which is usually the advice lawyers will give because it prevents any contradictions from happening. Contradictions are dangerous and doesn't matter if the victims are genuine or not. It is used in courts to discredit victims.
Caiti's situation is just a perfect example of false accusation brings out the worst in everyone. We went back to being "she was drunk," "she should've said no."
I don't believe Caiti's story due to just how odd her story is. She even admitted to getting up twice which was weird and going back because she didn't want to hurt his ego. It was proven of that she was texting comfortably with George for weeks, which I'm surprised no one talked about and she was supposed to be shy I guess.
But I do agree that we can criticize Caiti without hurting victims and falling into stereotypes which was what qe fought so hard against.
Thank you..like ppl arent criticising the case correctly
Yeeah, no. For a different example I'd be with you but this issue is such a clear cut nothingburger that it comes all the way around to Caitibugzz being the abusive one. Having your tummy tickled after hours of cuddling is not any kind of assault no matter what the intention of either party is
(Copy pasted from another comment because this is how I feel about this)
On the contrary, I think this is the perfect time to bring these things up.
This being such a "small" case compared to other instances means that people are WAY more likely to associate these red flags with a publicly discredited story.
Regardless of the truth of this case, we CANNOT start associating these traits with fabricated stories, that's how we lead to the same long-running stereotypes that only serve to harm victims in the long run.
@@datamaleexcept when it’s a fabricated case it’s bit good to bring up, all he did was touch her tummy that’s all
The only red flag in this situation comes from people thinking it’s ok to take an awkward social moment and turn it into an online harassment campaign.
@@UnionJames started by her
Maybe the lesson here should be that women shouldn't lie about serious allegations like this because it just keeps hurting real victims
that Turkey Tom guy is annoying and pisses me off and I can't quite figure out why. good video anyway
I’m really glad you’ve made this video.
Tom the kinda guy to make britbong unqualified grifters seethe
The worst part of the video is that it made me listen to Turkey Tom's infuriating tasteless nonsense
Aside from that, I really appreciate your arguments here. The responsibility of content creators cannot be overstated, especially those who appeal to younger demographics through their focus on "drama" and opinionated "reactions" to it. It's not the details of situations such as these that unsettle me - for all I know, Caitibugzz's story could be entirely fabricated and deserving of criticism - but rather the tone of the discussion and the language they normalise. It's rare for these cases to be treated with the tact they should always deserve, regardless of veracity; instead, they only succeed in reaffirming and spreading a dangerous attitude of standoffishness and preemptive defensiveness, an obsessive refusal to self-examinate and question one's own convictions, occasionally bordering on cruel derision (and in many cases, let's be honest, accompanied by a good dose of misogyny, as a treat).
Tbh I think there’s some truth in the accusations like in the first vod she implied he touched her chest it just went over alot of commentators heads and then notice how streamers that have been around them have been on caitis side like Brooke,ninichu and Shubble mind you shubble was dating someone close to that circle so she most likely was around him frequently.
Criminally underrated UA-cam channel
yeah I was thinking just that!
And this is why people are starting to dislike TurkeyTom.
i feel like im going insane with all of the victim blaming im seeing online & the twisting of her story. when did it turn to “ticking”?? what happened to silence is not consent? or that being drunk isnt consent?! anyways, thank you so much for making this video.
Calling her out isn't victim blaming
@@Nolongerusingthisaccount-t2bchanging her words is, which is what gnf fans do
Everyone should remember that Turkey Tom uses N (with hard r) word lol
Tom the kinda guy to have an easier time saying racial slurs than asking for consent
These "stereotypes" are what you chose by going through the court of public opinion instead of the court of law, choose the latter next time.
Re-enforce until public accusations stop!
The problem is assuming that these stereotypes hold any water, when they often don't.
Once again, we can't afford to use Caiti's story as an excuse to disregard every similar experience someone has, when they're often found in many valid accusations.
And again, it's common for victims to make accusations in places OTHER than a police investigation, due to how ineffective and violating police investigations can be, to the point that it's been referred to as the "second assault" for years now.
Validating these stereotypes as cause to disregard victim's stories is nothing more than collective punishment for every victim whose story shares traits with Caiti's.
You can remove my comment all you want won’t make it any less right
But thank you for this video! I kept seeing videos saying she's a liar and ruined his career. Decided to look into it myself and I don't see where the argument fans keep making is. Dream, Ghostie, Caiti, George, and others who were there said it happened. Fans who weren't there keep saying it never did.
Plus there's the argument fans keep using where they said "Ghostie said they were sober before going to the hotel room", yet Ghostie made a follow up tweet correcting this by saying she forgot they did drink before going to the Vidcon 18+ event. The event was also 18+, despite fans claiming 21 - something only fans keep saying. I understood the logic behind XqC's message, although it was irrelevant to the story. Fans are using XqCs argument to say "George was drunk therefore couldn't consent either" despite him being the one who initiated and attempted / succeeded at touching under her shirt.
Trying to point out inconsistencies in what fans have said feels like speaking to a brick wall. They just can't listen to reason.
But once again, thanks for the being the only creator who seemed to take a middle ground!
huh???!!!! The people there literally said she was very into it, consenting, etc etc. "initiation attempt etc" isn't proof of intent when drunk, especially when she was obviously into it too.
saying the fans are inconsistent while you lie about what happened lol
First of all she is a liar second of all the event was 21+ not 18+ use your brain
@jeffreychandler8418 this happens a lot with SA victims.
@Chocobiscuitbeanie the event was 18+, but you need a 21+ wristband to drink alcohol. It's the same every year, it didn't magically change that year lol
@@Cr0ftyTV the event was 21+ not 18+ she was in a place where she can't legally drink alcohol at 18
If one is drunk you MUST assume that that person cannot consent to sexual acts properly. In this case, Caiti did not even give VERBAL consent the most basic type of consent. Plus take into account that this was the first time they met? Would you expect sexual acts with a near stranger to be acceptable when the only type of consent given was vague body language? Sd much as they want to make excuses for George we can equally make the same amount of excuses for Caiti. The fact is that many of these streamers and social media acolytes is that to accept that you could've sexually assaulted someone is like directly knowing to jail. Albeit this is the culture of the internet, if George had worked on understanding the dangers of creating this culture of reducing sexual assault confessions to blank statements, he could've not only ended this Incel debate but he would simultaneously evolve his online character to someone with immense depth and understanding.
Another Caity apologist, get over it, Tom legit says nothing bad, she lied he didn’t, drama over ban the b1ch
Yeah but get your facts straight both were drunk first so it’s invalidating the rest of what you are saying and non verbal is a thing the most explicit consent are actions and written permissions (you can search it in google) and cuddling for hours is a non verbal consent considered like action. Moreover she came at him when he was drunk why dsont you apply it also she started cuddling when he was drunk if we use your logic she sa’ed gnf. Get a gf.
She literally agreed to cuddle with George and didn't find anything wrong with it she already consented to it both of them were drunk and the cuddling was consensual.
Show me anyone who defines. Rape victim like you said people do. Can u give even one example of anyone saying that. There should be police report after crime and evidence. If there is evidence it doesn't matter if victim lies.
Something you missed out that is getting parroted around by Dream fans
"Dream was innocent therefore George is"
The idea that one of them was "falsely accused" (again not proven, all his video did was "prove" people can fake screenshots and that his family was targeted by people who hate him), therefore all victims must be lying about it. I saw the same thing with BijuuMike. I don't know if the allegations against Mike were true, but his argument was that the girl had no evidence and that he's sick of people being falsely accused, which his fans mopped right up and bombarded the girl with hate, to the point she hid her account.
so the "innocence by proxy" argument is stupid.
Also, Dream did show he was falsely accused.
Womp womp