As somebody who is genderfluid, I remember having to confront certain feelings and thoughts that were toxic for a lot of men. I know what it's like growing up with all of these unrealistic expectations of 'manhood' and 'taking responsibility' and 'stoicism' because I was raised that way before transitioning. Men should be allowed to be comfortable in their own skin without conforming to this idealistic persona of 'manhood' that is solely designed to exploit rather than uplift. There is absolutely nothing wrong with masculinity (there are some 'masculine' qualities that I embody myself as well as others). It is what you DO with that masculinity that really matters.😊😊
I completely agree! I enjoy "performing" traditional masculinity out of my choice to do so. Every time I've felt forced, it's only been detrimental or unhealthy.
@@datamale And personally, I am attracted to men (romantically) who are vulnerable and honest with their loved ones and are comfortable and proud of their OWN masculinity, not the one that society forces on them. That is one of the reasons I like trans men and trans masc people in general (and also masc women) because they and I recognise what masculinity is as a concept and we are comfortable with that, rather than being super insecure about it like most cis men are.
issac reminds me of andrew tate. 99 percent of what he says is absurd nonsense that borderlines harm, and 1 percent is stating the obvious (domestic violence = bad) so that he and his supporters can say "see, he says it's bad! you're just woke"
At least PragerU APPEARS credible. Isaac just thrives by appealing to what his audience already thinks, or letting them fill in the blanks where he refuses to take a definitive stance on something.
16:50 I want to add that in my country, men that abuse their partners are attacked as "not man enough", and that neatly tie with the next discussion you made about preventing abuse by a new way to interpret masculinity. And yes, the government in my country are trying to do the same thing as Australias is trying to achieve.
How is this channel so underrated!? I'm in Aus, and so many younger guys watch Butterfield. The father of my kids is 34 and still thinks he's the absolute best. We're separated, for obvious reasons. But yeh, Isaac's a horrible human being and I'm scared for the young boys that absorb his nonsense.
@@gemmamarie-ann6606 It really sucks that these young men see the abrasive and cruel content that Isaac puts out and see it as strength. The idea of "masculinity" has been boiled down to its most brutish and simple aspects because of the simplified way we view it, and that lack of nuance allows people like Isaac to thrive.
*Patriarchy is itself genderless, and hurts men as much as it hurts women.* Also, I've had this conversation more times than I'd care to admit: *Me:* "Beware toxic mushrooms!" *Them:* "Oh so now mushrooms are toxic?! What so bad about mushrooms? You just hate mushrooms! I've eaten many tasty ones! Some recipes are pointless without mushrooms!" *Me:* "No, not all mush-..." *Them:* "rrrreeeeee" Every. Time. And at this point, I think its intentional since much of reactionary discourse is not of substance, it is concerned with aesthetics. They cannot permit nuance because conservative ideals rely on very simplistic, emotional thinking to perpetuate the 'us and them' and 'good thing bad thing' modes upon which it depends.
yet the word itself is gendered. and how? because I "have to" wear pants and not a dress? did you ever think that men don't have some secret desire to be women? we want to be the way we are?
I remember seeing a reel about someone from the LGBTQI+ Community committing S*#cide due to bullying,hate etc and seeing a comment from a guy I knew which literally cheered on. Like what sort of vile do you have to be to cheer something like this happening. But what was interesting to me was how he and many other guys I knew who were so toxic in their masculinity also had lots & lots of mental health issues. I think toxic masculinity gives guys this sense of Control on themselves and justifies basically every bad thing they do & are as "Manly".
The problem with upholding these rigid structures is that, as long as you appear to validate them, they will continue to invalidate you in one way or another. "Boys don't cry" is a harmful trope that is, unfortunately, accepted as fact or dogma.
You'd have to be crazy to live in this world and not suffer from some "mental health" issues or whatever. I mean, it has spiders in it and they eat flies without mercy and people know this and they still say that life/the world is beautiful even while the spider saps the life out of the fly.
Please correct me if I'm wrong: what I take from this video is that in order to combat toxic masculinity, the definition of masculinity (by extension, society's expectation of a man) should be 'open to interpretation.' Rather than set an ideal to which men should strive, they should be free to be whatever kind of man they want to be... Thanks for the video...
At least you understand the concept of Toxic Masculinity. Why do I have the feeling some beforehand throw the word around as a label instead of what it actually means? 1:25 I believe that wording there helps me understand what you're about to say in the video.
I would say it *is* masculinity itself what is criticised, but what _is_ masculinity? Masculinity is not men being respectful or... men preparing meals to their families? Masculinity is the social construct that defines behaviours like these as specific or essential to men. It is the categorisation of the attitude, and not the attitude, what is being questioned. As youtuber Shaun put it, why should we describe behaviours like the ones cited above as those of good men, when we could simply describe them as those of good people?
There's still good things that can typically be considered masculine, it's also fine for men to want to be that way. I do think it can still be a problem when there are men whose "goodness" isn't given value because it's not typically masculine. I suppose the real problem then just ends up being rigid gender roles.
I'd rather say that masculinity has to be "toxic" for it to be masculinity. The people who talk about toxic masculinity don't really bother to differentiate the two or even define it and when they do it just ends up being completely arbitrary. Like, they'll admit that it's a societal construct while at the same time refusing to accept a large portion of society's opinion of that construct as valid. They'll say that even gender is a social construct and then completely dismiss what most people actually think men and women are because it doesn't conform to a mold that they desire (a mold which they cannot even define btw.) I also don't understand what you mean by it "defines" behaviors.
@@PauLtus_B What is "goodness"? It sounds like you are saying that people have some inherent value and that value is not something conferred by others, but it apperantly doesn't matter unless society at large collectively acknowledges it.
@@dreyri2736 If you want to hear my counter to complete moral nihilism I can give it, but I think it's worth considering first whether that's really useful for this conversation.
@@PauLtus_B I have no idea why you brought up moral nihilism to begin with. My asking you to define goodness is not the same as my saying that moral nihilism is the truth. Yeah, it's probably not very relevant to the discussion. But you are free to actually answer my comment any time.
The video is well done and I pretty much agree with all of it. I'm just not sure what "positive masculinity" would be like. If we say that's respecting people in your life, seeing women as equals, etc - that's just being a good person irrespective of your gender, is it not? Supposedly "positive masculinity" would be something that's specifically relevant to men?
Your section on incels doesn’t make any sense, and is a really tired argument. Incels aren’t upset because they can’t meet an arbitrary societal standard of masculinity, they are upset because they cannot be in a relationship and feel alone, a desire of which that is innate in all humans regardless of culture. I see people argue this all the time, that you shouldn’t derived self worth from having romantic/sexual relationship, but they fail to understand that it is a human necessity independent of any social programming or upbringing
@@phangkuanhoong7967Because it tells them that they're right to feel and think what they do, and they don't have to feel challenged by stepping out of their comfort zone to face the fact that they may be wrong. Isaac's channel is, ironically, a safe space for his audience.
What is your view point on domestic violence? Might be worth doing a video about this topic. Thetinmen referenced 1700 studies about DV in December 2023 on his IG and it's not a good look on women. A certain movement is telling us a complete different story, than what science is showing us with their data.
Wow Im in shock! You are very clever at mixing both the truth with ur agenda! All of the examples were out of context & u made ur own assumptions! U mentioned societal expectations of men but failed to mention who are men trynna impress & who’s expecting all these things from them! I have NEVER in my life had a man call me TOXIC MASCULINE EVER or tell me I have to be 6feet to be a man! Not saying its women’s fault men act that way but men are the definitely not the enforcers of these expectations! Also I agree that too much tough act is detrimental but who decides when someone is “too brave or too strong”! I also think a toddler knows every man is not toxic idk why that had to be mentioned! U slipped up when u said science favors women to be leaders 🤦🏾♂️ leadership is not gender based! Joe was talkin bout how some women abuse the term “toxic masculinity “ and is it VERY true but yk what u doing! I can go on & on & not even half way done!
Enough of the negativity We need to shine light on the good of both men and women! Everybody talks bout the negatives its overplayed but like u said its about a fanbase and worshippers not real help! S/o to all the good hearted and non-deceptive ppls out there 🤝🏾❤️
Maybe not "Anger" as an emotion, but outward expressions of it, definitely. www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/01/000131075609.htm I was citing credible sources when I made that point.
@@datamale Any studies that suggest anger or outward expressions of it is somehow a masculine feature are paid for feminist studies cherrypicking stuff for their misandry. It's an utterly ridiculous concept, and one I wholeheartedly reject as somehow a legitimate trait of masculinity.
Rather than further theorizing about "toxic masculinity," we must discuss widespread toxic femininity, which has been on parade in society for the last years: state power to keep us "safe" (lockdowns), material security over morality & common sense (the welfare state), the dominance of feelings over logic & language, the trust in government (the metaphoric parent), hypergamy & polygamy in relationships (which reduces men to their monetary value), vicious, tactical, anonymous gossip (social media, Moira Donegan, Taylor Lorenz), and lack of accountability ("rules for thee, but not for me" and refusal to acknowledge guilt in the face of plain evidence).
That's not what toxic femininity is, though. Toxic femininity would be things like weaponizing perceived vulnerability to get away with harm, or any other social expectation of femininity being taken to the extreme. You can't just list a bunch of random things you don't like and associate it with femininity, I know it's called a "nanny state" but that doesn't make it exclusively feminine. Besides, the prioritization of feelings over logic & a lack of accountability aren't primarily feminine traits, as we observed in Joe & Isaac using them to blindly defend masculinity.
@@datamaleHe still has a point. We focus in our society mainly on physical violence (mainly perpetrated by men), because its overt. Hence the focus on toxic masculinity. If you look deeper into this topic, you will find out, that women are as violent as men, they just exercise violence differently. Mainly with relational violence, which is by nature covert. Hence why society is turning a blind eye to this and we barely hear about toxic femininity.
Hmm. So I watched two of your videos at this point. You seem too concerned about being a good leftist to be a very good cultural commentator. You're a good soldier in the army. But, you're a bad general, to use a metaphor I know you'll hate. And that's fine, someone's got to strom the beaches. I'm not joining your army though. I hope in time you join an army that's got a worthy goal. You'll be good at it.
DONATION LINKS BELOW:
(USA)
Face it Foundation: www.faceitfoundation.org/donate/
Movember: movember.com/
(UK)
MANUP: www.manup.how/
Movember: uk.movember.com/mens-health/mental-health
(AUS)
Men's Mental Health Foundation: mmhf.org.au/
MensLine Australia: mensline.org.au/about-us/donations-and-fundraising/
As somebody who is genderfluid, I remember having to confront certain feelings and thoughts that were toxic for a lot of men. I know what it's like growing up with all of these unrealistic expectations of 'manhood' and 'taking responsibility' and 'stoicism' because I was raised that way before transitioning. Men should be allowed to be comfortable in their own skin without conforming to this idealistic persona of 'manhood' that is solely designed to exploit rather than uplift. There is absolutely nothing wrong with masculinity (there are some 'masculine' qualities that I embody myself as well as others). It is what you DO with that masculinity that really matters.😊😊
I completely agree!
I enjoy "performing" traditional masculinity out of my choice to do so.
Every time I've felt forced, it's only been detrimental or unhealthy.
@@datamale And personally, I am attracted to men (romantically) who are vulnerable and honest with their loved ones and are comfortable and proud of their OWN masculinity, not the one that society forces on them. That is one of the reasons I like trans men and trans masc people in general (and also masc women) because they and I recognise what masculinity is as a concept and we are comfortable with that, rather than being super insecure about it like most cis men are.
@@walterkruger5348 how do you know what is and is not being forced on men?
Its sad how you say be comfortable in their own skin yet are transitioning
@@Yeshua_is-Cool Yes……that’s why it’s called change buddy…..everyone goes through it and it’s totally normal….
You know exactly what I mean…..
Bridges, jets, and rockets. Humanity's three prime achievements. That part really tickled me. I wonder why they were top of mind for the guy.
My list would be Taming of wolves, Internet and Aircraft
issac reminds me of andrew tate. 99 percent of what he says is absurd nonsense that borderlines harm, and 1 percent is stating the obvious (domestic violence = bad) so that he and his supporters can say "see, he says it's bad! you're just woke"
Isaac butterfield is pragerU level propaganda at this point
At least PragerU APPEARS credible. Isaac just thrives by appealing to what his audience already thinks, or letting them fill in the blanks where he refuses to take a definitive stance on something.
16:50 I want to add that in my country, men that abuse their partners are attacked as "not man enough", and that neatly tie with the next discussion you made about preventing abuse by a new way to interpret masculinity. And yes, the government in my country are trying to do the same thing as Australias is trying to achieve.
How is this channel so underrated!? I'm in Aus, and so many younger guys watch Butterfield. The father of my kids is 34 and still thinks he's the absolute best. We're separated, for obvious reasons. But yeh, Isaac's a horrible human being and I'm scared for the young boys that absorb his nonsense.
@@gemmamarie-ann6606 It really sucks that these young men see the abrasive and cruel content that Isaac puts out and see it as strength.
The idea of "masculinity" has been boiled down to its most brutish and simple aspects because of the simplified way we view it, and that lack of nuance allows people like Isaac to thrive.
Well, you people generally reap what you sow.
*Patriarchy is itself genderless, and hurts men as much as it hurts women.*
Also, I've had this conversation more times than I'd care to admit:
*Me:* "Beware toxic mushrooms!"
*Them:* "Oh so now mushrooms are toxic?! What so bad about mushrooms? You just hate mushrooms! I've eaten many tasty ones! Some recipes are pointless without mushrooms!"
*Me:* "No, not all mush-..."
*Them:* "rrrreeeeee"
Every. Time.
And at this point, I think its intentional since much of reactionary discourse is not of substance, it is concerned with aesthetics. They cannot permit nuance because conservative ideals rely on very simplistic, emotional thinking to perpetuate the 'us and them' and 'good thing bad thing' modes upon which it depends.
yet the word itself is gendered.
and how? because I "have to" wear pants and not a dress? did you ever think that men don't have some secret desire to be women? we want to be the way we are?
@@Samrules888 obvious troll is obvious
"Facts don't care about your feelings" they say, while spending a shocking amount of effort ignoring the facts because it hurts their feelings.
@@datamale Because *there is nothing more irrational than an emotional attachment to the aesthetics of reason.*
@@Samrules888 it’s not about pants
I remember seeing a reel about someone from the LGBTQI+ Community committing S*#cide due to bullying,hate etc and seeing a comment from a guy I knew which literally cheered on. Like what sort of vile do you have to be to cheer something like this happening.
But what was interesting to me was how he and many other guys I knew who were so toxic in their masculinity also had lots & lots of mental health issues.
I think toxic masculinity gives guys this sense of Control on themselves and justifies basically every bad thing they do & are as "Manly".
The problem with upholding these rigid structures is that, as long as you appear to validate them, they will continue to invalidate you in one way or another.
"Boys don't cry" is a harmful trope that is, unfortunately, accepted as fact or dogma.
You'd have to be crazy to live in this world and not suffer from some "mental health" issues or whatever. I mean, it has spiders in it and they eat flies without mercy and people know this and they still say that life/the world is beautiful even while the spider saps the life out of the fly.
God bless you man, the stuff you do is really great.
You deserve to blow up in popularity.
I really like this video, because it provides useful explanations for some core concepts which I’ve struggled to explain in the past.
Please correct me if I'm wrong: what I take from this video is that in order to combat toxic masculinity, the definition of masculinity (by extension, society's expectation of a man) should be 'open to interpretation.'
Rather than set an ideal to which men should strive, they should be free to be whatever kind of man they want to be...
Thanks for the video...
Nobody actually believes that people should be free to be whoever they want to be.
engagement
ANOTHER BANGER FROM YOU. ANOTHER ONE.
At least you understand the concept of Toxic Masculinity. Why do I have the feeling some beforehand throw the word around as a label instead of what it actually means?
1:25 I believe that wording there helps me understand what you're about to say in the video.
I would say it *is* masculinity itself what is criticised, but what _is_ masculinity? Masculinity is not men being respectful or... men preparing meals to their families? Masculinity is the social construct that defines behaviours like these as specific or essential to men. It is the categorisation of the attitude, and not the attitude, what is being questioned. As youtuber Shaun put it, why should we describe behaviours like the ones cited above as those of good men, when we could simply describe them as those of good people?
There's still good things that can typically be considered masculine, it's also fine for men to want to be that way.
I do think it can still be a problem when there are men whose "goodness" isn't given value because it's not typically masculine.
I suppose the real problem then just ends up being rigid gender roles.
I'd rather say that masculinity has to be "toxic" for it to be masculinity. The people who talk about toxic masculinity don't really bother to differentiate the two or even define it and when they do it just ends up being completely arbitrary.
Like, they'll admit that it's a societal construct while at the same time refusing to accept a large portion of society's opinion of that construct as valid. They'll say that even gender is a social construct and then completely dismiss what most people actually think men and women are because it doesn't conform to a mold that they desire (a mold which they cannot even define btw.)
I also don't understand what you mean by it "defines" behaviors.
@@PauLtus_B
What is "goodness"? It sounds like you are saying that people have some inherent value and that value is not something conferred by others, but it apperantly doesn't matter unless society at large collectively acknowledges it.
@@dreyri2736 If you want to hear my counter to complete moral nihilism I can give it, but I think it's worth considering first whether that's really useful for this conversation.
@@PauLtus_B I have no idea why you brought up moral nihilism to begin with. My asking you to define goodness is not the same as my saying that moral nihilism is the truth.
Yeah, it's probably not very relevant to the discussion. But you are free to actually answer my comment any time.
Great vid as always!! More people should speak up about this important issue
The video is well done and I pretty much agree with all of it. I'm just not sure what "positive masculinity" would be like. If we say that's respecting people in your life, seeing women as equals, etc - that's just being a good person irrespective of your gender, is it not? Supposedly "positive masculinity" would be something that's specifically relevant to men?
These are great videos. Your channel should be bigger. Thank you for bringing some focus to the land down under and its dumbasses.
This is such a well made, thoughtful video.
Thank you! I'm trying to focus more on some pretty serious topics, so make sure to stick around if you enjoyed!
Your section on incels doesn’t make any sense, and is a really tired argument. Incels aren’t upset because they can’t meet an arbitrary societal standard of masculinity, they are upset because they cannot be in a relationship and feel alone, a desire of which that is innate in all humans regardless of culture. I see people argue this all the time, that you shouldn’t derived self worth from having romantic/sexual relationship, but they fail to understand that it is a human necessity independent of any social programming or upbringing
Once again, great video. and once again, isaac butterfield shows how much he's a hack
As if he could ever stop!
the man has a painfully grating voice to me. i don't understand how do people enjoy his content.
@@phangkuanhoong7967Because it tells them that they're right to feel and think what they do, and they don't have to feel challenged by stepping out of their comfort zone to face the fact that they may be wrong.
Isaac's channel is, ironically, a safe space for his audience.
great video
What is your view point on domestic violence? Might be worth doing a video about this topic. Thetinmen referenced 1700 studies about DV in December 2023 on his IG and it's not a good look on women. A certain movement is telling us a complete different story, than what science is showing us with their data.
Thetinmen is a gateway to men's rights slash toxic masculinity culture. Ignore them.
Wow Im in shock! You are very clever at mixing both the truth with ur agenda! All of the examples were out of context & u made ur own assumptions!
U mentioned societal expectations of men but failed to mention who are men trynna impress & who’s expecting all these things from them! I have NEVER in my life had a man call me TOXIC MASCULINE EVER or tell me I have to be 6feet to be a man! Not saying its women’s fault men act that way but men are the definitely not the enforcers of these expectations! Also I agree that too much tough act is detrimental but who decides when someone is “too brave or too strong”! I also think a toddler knows every man is not toxic idk why that had to be mentioned! U slipped up when u said science favors women to be leaders 🤦🏾♂️ leadership is not gender based!
Joe was talkin bout how some women abuse the term “toxic masculinity “ and is it VERY true but yk what u doing! I can go on & on & not even half way done!
Enough of the negativity We need to shine light on the good of both men and women! Everybody talks bout the negatives its overplayed but like u said its about a fanbase and worshippers not real help!
S/o to all the good hearted and non-deceptive ppls out there 🤝🏾❤️
You lost me at anger is expected. If you honestly think that, you have no credibility as someone to seek advice on this subject from.
Is it not?
@@DeezN1892read Marcus Aurelius meditations.
how come?
Maybe not "Anger" as an emotion, but outward expressions of it, definitely.
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/01/000131075609.htm
I was citing credible sources when I made that point.
@@datamale Any studies that suggest anger or outward expressions of it is somehow a masculine feature are paid for feminist studies cherrypicking stuff for their misandry. It's an utterly ridiculous concept, and one I wholeheartedly reject as somehow a legitimate trait of masculinity.
Rather than further theorizing about "toxic masculinity," we must discuss widespread toxic femininity, which has been on parade in society for the last years: state power to keep us "safe" (lockdowns), material security over morality & common sense (the welfare state), the dominance of feelings over logic & language, the trust in government (the metaphoric parent), hypergamy & polygamy in relationships (which reduces men to their monetary value), vicious, tactical, anonymous gossip (social media, Moira Donegan, Taylor Lorenz), and lack of accountability ("rules for thee, but not for me" and refusal to acknowledge guilt in the face of plain evidence).
That's not what toxic femininity is, though. Toxic femininity would be things like weaponizing perceived vulnerability to get away with harm, or any other social expectation of femininity being taken to the extreme.
You can't just list a bunch of random things you don't like and associate it with femininity, I know it's called a "nanny state" but that doesn't make it exclusively feminine.
Besides, the prioritization of feelings over logic & a lack of accountability aren't primarily feminine traits, as we observed in Joe & Isaac using them to blindly defend masculinity.
@@datamalewhat should he call it then?
@@datamaleHe still has a point. We focus in our society mainly on physical violence (mainly perpetrated by men), because its overt. Hence the focus on toxic masculinity. If you look deeper into this topic, you will find out, that women are as violent as men, they just exercise violence differently. Mainly with relational violence, which is by nature covert. Hence why society is turning a blind eye to this and we barely hear about toxic femininity.
Hmm. So I watched two of your videos at this point. You seem too concerned about being a good leftist to be a very good cultural commentator. You're a good soldier in the army. But, you're a bad general, to use a metaphor I know you'll hate. And that's fine, someone's got to strom the beaches. I'm not joining your army though. I hope in time you join an army that's got a worthy goal. You'll be good at it.
What are you even talking about 😂😂
@@myself2noone wtf are you on about?