This video is the truth, or at least 'my truth and opinion' when it comes to the recent latency improvements and lag fixes released by AtGames and Zen Studios for the Zen Pinball Games that run natively on their platform. What are your thoughts? Let me know below.
They should've never marketed this as the ALP4k. Couldv'e saved themselves so much trouble and just said "tables up to 4k" as a feature. Now they're gonna have this hanging over their heads for the life of the product, since it's safe to say anything graphically intensive won't run at 4k. Thanks for showing off the improvements!
Great video with well thought out pros and cons for the machine. Im of the opinion that atgames didn't realize what was involved in getting Zen tables running but im very happy with the improvements. I enjoy my purchase and maybe, one day, might get on a leaderboard.
One thing to keep in mind, with ALT we have the exact moment in time (electrically) when the flipper button is pressed. It's more precise than using frame-by-frame (visual) using a video editor. Which has a margin of error of - yep, 16.67ms! The visual indication when the flipper moves cannot be performed while a ball is in-play. If you stop and think about it, if a ball is passing in the camera frame (or casting shadows near it) any calculation will be 100% wrong as they will constantly get picked up and skew the results. These measurements are about as precise as anyone could realistically expect. Tons of work was involved, not just in recording all ~186(tables)x30(samples ea. table)=5580 measurements but developing and designing a tool to make it all possible. If you haven't already picked up on the value of taking 30 (or many more) measured data samples already, in an upcoming video it will be even more clear. Stay tuned!
John the amount of work that went into your testing is pretty incredible. Nobody said anything otherwise. However to your point you had to capture your results this way because it was the only way for you to be sure all 30 times per table it is reacting and reading the result correctly and in the exact same manner versus the ball moving and the table active. However, when the game is fully running with lots of things happening on the table one can safely assume you will see a dip in frames versus a game sitting at the starting position. The difference is going to be most likely negligible but just something to point out in regards to accuracy and like I said in the video at the end..does it really matter?. In my opinion this was overall a very positive video and not something for AtGames employees to feel defensive about.
@@PDubsArcadeLoft Thanks for the feedback, and I want to clarify that I’m not being defensive. However, I do need to address the point that creating a quick video to poke holes in the methodology, especially where the criticisms can’t be implemented, just doesn’t make sense. I believe the concern here is about potential changes in frame rate when the table is in action. Let’s break that down: say the frame rate drops from 60 FPS to 59 FPS due to heavy calculations-this would result in a 1.67% drop, which introduces a margin of error of only 0.279 ms. Compare that to the 16.67 ms margin of error avoided by using precise electrical signals through ALT, and the difference is clear: we’ve reduced the error to just 1.67%. So, yes, while a slight frame rate drop can occur, the error it introduces is negligible compared to what’s avoided by not relying on frame-by-frame visual measurements. The ALT system was designed specifically to eliminate these inconsistencies and provide exact data. For players who care about precision, this is why the approach used here delivers reliable results.
@@WagnersTechTalk For my part, i would just point out that if every table is being measured with the same initial conditions (without a ball in play), then proper, one-to-one comparisons can be made between the Zen tables and, say, the MP tables where the flipper response is already at a satisfactory level for most consumers.
@@WagnersTechTalk Exactly what I said - the difference could be negligible especially if there is only a slight drop in frames. How do we know there is not a larger drop? It's like testing the engine performance on a vehicle parked and running in idle versus actually driving it. However, like I said in the video it ended up being more of a moot point ("Does it really matter?") and too deep in the weeds considering the "experience" was more than enjoyable as is and I don't see the need to have you dig deeper into the results. We could end up making a spreadsheet with many calculations including the game at idle, running standard gameplay, how it performs once table items kick in (moving 3D characters etc) and we would end up just burying ourselves in too much data.
@@peteg475 like I said in my video the experience now (in my opinion) is on par with the Magic Pixel and Gottlieb Games and what many have been asking and demanding AtGames to give us. Overall I walked away from this experience happy.
Compared to the original AtGames HD Legends Pinball release, AtGames has done a much better job with this product. So many improvements such as the on-screen interface, better login and connectivity results, real solenoids, much nicer physical cabinet, and (slightly) better responsiveness to the community with system issues.
@@sunnydelight3046 Sunny, I own both. The 4K unit blows away the HD unit on all comparisons. And, 4K ALP has huge advantage of playing Zen tables natively without needing a very good gaming PC and OTG setup knowledge. And, with potential of 100s of VPX tables getting on-boarded with only a USB drive, you’ve got something really special here. I don’t even play the HD ALP anymore and just listed it for sale. The SSF kit on the 4K ALP takes virtual pinball to another level!
You say at the beginning frame delay of 7 seconds down to 4 seconds … is that supposed to be screen frames? And it’s all about expectations the company set (4K) and then what they delivered (far less than 4K) … so I don’t blame people for being disappointed, regardless of how enjoyable the games are … which may be high now, just not what was promised. Great video review PDubs! 👊🏻😎🕹️
I would say the ultimate test is: If these tables were released this way from the beginning, i doubt anybody would be complaining about flipper response issues. We are only hyper-sensitive to it now because the darned things didn't work right at the beginning. But yeah, I would say it's a "fix". The resolution issue has been there from day one, doesn't bother me at all, but I can totally see why it irritates some people. 80% of the tables ARE 4K, so I'm wondering if this is another indication that the contract with Zen was a last-minute add-on to this platform, and the only way to really make it work was to run it at 1440. Someone with inside info would know better than me.
@@PDubsArcadeLoft Don't get me wrong - the Zen games are a big draw for the machine. So if forced to choose between having no Zen tables at all with every other table running at 4K, or having the Zen tables included (along with everything else) that run at reduced resolution, I want the latter and not the former. I really like a lot of the MP tables, but Zen makes it a more enticing purchase.
Lag improvements are noticeable and make the gameplay fun for Zen tables. I am playing it more. However, the latest Universal Pack (ET, Jaws, BTTF) along with AFM, ST:TNG, TZ & World Cup Soccer are all 1260p from Wagner's list. We'll have to see if this reduced from 1440p res is a trend on future packs for performance.
Spot on, PDubs! I'm happy with the updates; annoyed it's not 4k (but not necessarily a deal breaker), and really enjoy playing the Zen tables now. Oh -- Back to the Future is a MUST BUY! ET and Jaws are a bonus. I have one table that won't load anymore and AtGames is basically going to force me to do a reset of the whole deal. That'll be a lost Saturday.
I agree with the difference between the ball loaded and the table playing. Testing on VPX, there's a frame drop once the table is actually playing. Not a complaint, just an oberservation.
The Truth Shall Set You Free (Of Lag). Amen! If it was 4-5 Seconds delay though that would be too much my dubs! The first rebuild of the tables, they can refine it more from here. I haven't noticed any ball stutters or audio stutters on the rebuilt tables which I did notice on the previous versions which is great as well as improved audio volume.
@@PDubsArcadeLoft I do! Come get me on the leaderboards I am number 1 on Star Trek Discovery, the fixes have greatly improved my scores. I think it would be 4k on zen if they were still on fx3, the unreal engine on fx just too hard to run them at 4k unless yu have a dedicated gaming pc like I have with a 3080ti, 12900k.
@@PDubsArcadeLoft If Zen has to reduce the playfield resolution in order to reduce flipper lag, then Zen really needs to get away from Unreal Engine. They’ve got a real 4K playfield, but they display a QHD image on it, instead of UHD. That’s a letdown. The AQLP (“AtGames QHD Legends Pinball Machine”) still seems like the best VPin deal on Earth right now, so if i decide to buy one , I will reconcile with 1440p, but I really do want a real 4K image, since that’s what they have advertised.
If you don't want to purchase a pc and want a plug and play cabinet, the alp 4kp is still the best option under $2000. If you just want to play the zen pc games and vpx at high fps with no cabinet, then a used rog ally extreme would be the cheapest way.
I think they should allow people to adjust the video settings just like you would with an external GPU on a PC. People who don’t play modern games don’t understand that resolution is just one choice you make to get the max out of your system. For example a 4070 playing Cyberpunk can hit 60fps @4k but you have to use lower quality settings, turn on FSR (a scaling algorithm) etc. Now is the 4070 pc a 4K gaming rig? Yes and No. Given the hardware is exactly the same for Alp4k’s they are basically saying playing the Zen games at 1440p with higher quality texture mapping is the best video settings. If they allowed people to tweak their own settings then there are people who would play at 4K/60 with lower texture settings and be ok with it, while other people would drop the resolution and play with higher texture settings. The marketing of it being a 4K machine is as accurate as Nvdia saying the 4070 is a 4K gpu. Again, trying to reduce video quality to just resolution is part of the issue here, and Nintendo figured this out long ago when Sony and Xbox were trying to out resolute each other, Nintendo launched the Wii (and later the Switch) knowing that resolution is only one variable in creating a great gaming experience. I remember all these critics lambasting them - the Switch moved 30million units so they had the last laugh. Specs are just numbers, resolution, frame rates, input lag all contribute to the experience, and what makes a product like the ALP4k pretty great is they are not trying to outspec a $7000 vpin custom build, they are trying to make compromises on specs to save cost (and it is not relative, you have to pay a lot more for an incremental improvement in experience). For the money it is a great purchase, though they have taken 9 months since launch to get where it should have been at the start. Also, you could put together a pc build under $800 to run Pinball Fx at high quality video settings with a resolution of 4k60fps as graphics wise VPin is not too taxing (plus some of the latest VPX tables are stunning on the ALP4k). So if it important to have the highest video settings then it is not too much of an investment to achieve them. I would love them to create a limited edition cabs with a 42” 4K/144hz lcd, use the Unico 4:3 for the back glass, increase the size of the DMD monitor. Offer with the SF kit already installed for $3k. Maybe call it the Pro. I think a lot of people would be ok using the Atgames eco system still in that scenario (1440p on a 42” monitor can still look pretty good) but if you wanted to you could add a gaming rig allowing you to have a vpin on par with most customs for $5k. It would likely make a huge dent in that market as you would save $2-4K but still have the AAA experience.
Note that most of the Zac tables are also available on pc or even android. The only exclusives for atgames are the taito tables and the natural history and dr suess tables. The zen fx3 tables are also available on android.
If you buy all the table packs they come to 875usd and zen haven't released all FX tables yet so that number will rise. Considering at best half of the tables will play at 1440p 60hz (most wanna play zen tables not 4 different versions of house of diamonds/space shuttle etc) doesnt seem great value once you add nearly 2k for the table and ssf kit.
I am able to play zen tables in 4K (Pimax crystal light) with no lag In VR. Jaws, E.T., Back to the Future all run beautifully in FXVR. But that is coded in an older engine. *Hint *Hint Zen.
Has nobody noticed that not only has the resolution dropped to fix the lag, but the ball has basically become a static object moving around like the Gottlieb tables on the Legends HD? or that there isn't any lighting that is affected by the ball passing in front of lights like on the inner lanes, etc? Compare lighting on the Magic Pixel tables to the improved Zen tables and you will quickly notice the issue. Yes the lag is fixed, but the cost is pretty steep in terms of how they got there.
The problem is the chip in the alp 4kp is not powerful enough for pinball fx. They are lowering the graphics and effects and maybe the resolution to fix the lag. No different than playing any game on an underpowered PC.
@@MikeS-qk6gd We aren't talking about OTG, that is the product of what you currently own connected to the unit; I am able to run Pinball FX in 4k on it without issue, but it would be nice to just turn the damn thing on and have a comparable experience without the need to turn on the PC. I am just making an observation about the concessions that had to be made to get these tables playable. And remember that those of us that own the 4KP bought it on the promise we would get a top of the line experience for a premium price over the Legends HD. Almost double the price in fact.
@@darthdorkimusprime7231 my SD comment was to compare the lag. Playing pinball fx on the SD is laggy just like the native alp 4kp tables. You have to drop graphic settings to reduce the lag. The root cause is the same. The hardware is not powerful enough to run pinball fx at full power.
The problem is the chip in the alp 4kp is not powerful enough for pinball fx. They are lowering the graphics and effects and maybe the resolution to fix the lag. No different than playing any game on an underpowered PC.
1.7B is your best on AFM? Sounds like you only made a few skill shots. Ha. Thanks for the ongoing feedback here. I was in the TAF pre-order but took advantage of the offer to cancel after the delays and playing it at Expo. Maybe I'll revisit it down the road but feel good about my decision at the moment.
I agree with the bait and switch advertising. I bet the fine print will say up to 4k. Also agree with your assessment of the testing. That isn’t an accurate test. Plus every time you update an atgames product it is reflashing the hardware which in the past has caused issues on previous machines. Trust me I know after having two machines die. I don’t own this product but I assume it works the same way. It definitely isn’t like updating your ps5/xbox
Yes it matters because if you're not putting a strain on the game that flip a lag will go up by four or five frames and if Zen you didn't put out android-based games on a 4K table this wouldn't be an issue. this is what happens when you get a POS port of a phone game on a table
Yes, it is definitely better but I still think with optimization and them still working on it. We might be able to get it down another 1015 even 20% and at that point it pretty much is fixed.
There will always be lag in virtual pinball, heck even real Pinball. But if you are around 5 frames per second delay or less (preferred 3) it'll be an enjoyable experience for most
@@troymcdonald So there you have it: an average of ~131ms of total input lag when playing VPX in OTG mode. The 4KP hardware seems to be adding roughly 10-15ms of lag on the input side and roughly 25-35ms of lag on the output side, for a total of ~35-60ms of added lag. This is definitely falling short of my soft target of 100ms or less of total lag, which explains why OTG play on the 4KP doesn't feel great right now. Pinball FX is especially bad at ~150ms of total lag, which feels borderline unplayable to me. The native Attack from Mars table is similar right now to VPX OTG. If this level of lag doesn't bother you, I'm happy for you, but it definitely bothers me.
@@chrispeters8785 I'm waiting for like Back to the Future (cabinet), but i'm still holding off for a better experience with OTG. But I may up the creek and it'll be what it will be... ?? (I personally don't plan on playing anything but OTG.)
With Atgames track records, is this really a surprise? You would think if they used a better PCB and chipset board, they wouldn't have these problems. Could they of used a better board or is this a budget decision? Remember the price your paying for this cab.
The truth is Atgames is ripping off everyone of their customers by calling this a 4K virtual pinball machine. But most UA-camrs will keep pushing these companies products that are ripping off people and hopes one day they’ll get stuff for free. Most UA-camrs don’t have any morals like PDubs.
I've bought every game as the fixes have been implemented and the games perform 100 percent better. The picture quality hasn't been affected and the screen looks great 4K or not. I was a major complainer about the lag and feel it's a non issue now. This is still the best quality VPIN your going to get for the money. I have no problem with 1700 dollars , that's what i paid with all the upgrades, compared to 6,000 to 10,000 for anything else. And they aren't plug and play. You still have to know the ins and outs to use them. I'm not even remotely interested in that. I just want to be able to turn it on and play. This does that perfectly. I'd like to see them put out a bigger table in the future.
Dude do you know anything about this topic? They have almost 190 tables and over 80 percent are in 4k, its on the publishers to set the resolution not atgames and zen set them at the resolution that runs the best. Anyone who runs otg knows what it takes computer wise to run Zen steam at 4k.
Video starts at 0:00, lol just kidding. Like MK11 I'm gonna get this, but I'm gonna wait till all the improvements/dlc when they release the ultimate edition for $20, then I'm gonna buy into this.
This video is the truth, or at least 'my truth and opinion' when it comes to the recent latency improvements and lag fixes released by AtGames and Zen Studios for the Zen Pinball Games that run natively on their platform. What are your thoughts? Let me know below.
Patrick smiling again is the real win here!
At least, that’s what the wife says. 😁
Agreed my friend!
The smile is the ultimate seal of approval 🙂 Thx for this one PDubs
Thanks Jay!!
I received my Peanuts pinball yesterday and it’s all your fault. I LOVE IT!!! A few of the mods are great too.
Glad you like them!
They should've never marketed this as the ALP4k. Couldv'e saved themselves so much trouble and just said "tables up to 4k" as a feature. Now they're gonna have this hanging over their heads for the life of the product, since it's safe to say anything graphically intensive won't run at 4k. Thanks for showing off the improvements!
Thanks Trev! 👊
Great video with well thought out pros and cons for the machine. Im of the opinion that atgames didn't realize what was involved in getting Zen tables running but im very happy with the improvements. I enjoy my purchase and maybe, one day, might get on a leaderboard.
@@mitchel440 I’m glad you enjoyed the video!
I'm loving the updates. The improved Zen tables are actually fun to play now.
Absolutely!
Gotta get that Back To The Future table, PDubs... the multiballs are HEAVY, Doc!
Great Scott!
One thing to keep in mind, with ALT we have the exact moment in time (electrically) when the flipper button is pressed. It's more precise than using frame-by-frame (visual) using a video editor. Which has a margin of error of - yep, 16.67ms! The visual indication when the flipper moves cannot be performed while a ball is in-play. If you stop and think about it, if a ball is passing in the camera frame (or casting shadows near it) any calculation will be 100% wrong as they will constantly get picked up and skew the results. These measurements are about as precise as anyone could realistically expect. Tons of work was involved, not just in recording all ~186(tables)x30(samples ea. table)=5580 measurements but developing and designing a tool to make it all possible. If you haven't already picked up on the value of taking 30 (or many more) measured data samples already, in an upcoming video it will be even more clear. Stay tuned!
John the amount of work that went into your testing is pretty incredible. Nobody said anything otherwise. However to your point you had to capture your results this way because it was the only way for you to be sure all 30 times per table it is reacting and reading the result correctly and in the exact same manner versus the ball moving and the table active. However, when the game is fully running with lots of things happening on the table one can safely assume you will see a dip in frames versus a game sitting at the starting position. The difference is going to be most likely negligible but just something to point out in regards to accuracy and like I said in the video at the end..does it really matter?. In my opinion this was overall a very positive video and not something for AtGames employees to feel defensive about.
@@PDubsArcadeLoft Thanks for the feedback, and I want to clarify that I’m not being defensive. However, I do need to address the point that creating a quick video to poke holes in the methodology, especially where the criticisms can’t be implemented, just doesn’t make sense.
I believe the concern here is about potential changes in frame rate when the table is in action. Let’s break that down: say the frame rate drops from 60 FPS to 59 FPS due to heavy calculations-this would result in a 1.67% drop, which introduces a margin of error of only 0.279 ms. Compare that to the 16.67 ms margin of error avoided by using precise electrical signals through ALT, and the difference is clear: we’ve reduced the error to just 1.67%.
So, yes, while a slight frame rate drop can occur, the error it introduces is negligible compared to what’s avoided by not relying on frame-by-frame visual measurements. The ALT system was designed specifically to eliminate these inconsistencies and provide exact data.
For players who care about precision, this is why the approach used here delivers reliable results.
@@WagnersTechTalk For my part, i would just point out that if every table is being measured with the same initial conditions (without a ball in play), then proper, one-to-one comparisons can be made between the Zen tables and, say, the MP tables where the flipper response is already at a satisfactory level for most consumers.
@@WagnersTechTalk Exactly what I said - the difference could be negligible especially if there is only a slight drop in frames. How do we know there is not a larger drop? It's like testing the engine performance on a vehicle parked and running in idle versus actually driving it. However, like I said in the video it ended up being more of a moot point ("Does it really matter?") and too deep in the weeds considering the "experience" was more than enjoyable as is and I don't see the need to have you dig deeper into the results. We could end up making a spreadsheet with many calculations including the game at idle, running standard gameplay, how it performs once table items kick in (moving 3D characters etc) and we would end up just burying ourselves in too much data.
@@peteg475 like I said in my video the experience now (in my opinion) is on par with the Magic Pixel and Gottlieb Games and what many have been asking and demanding AtGames to give us. Overall I walked away from this experience happy.
Glad we’re all back to enjoying virtual pinball tables again🎉
@@halfadozen6 Boom 💥 Me too!
All of you including Pdubs, we are talking milliseconds and not seconds, right?
It literally has a pop up that says ‘Frames per Second’ every time I mention the results I just only said ‘second!’ In a couple spots.
Compared to the original AtGames HD Legends Pinball release, AtGames has done a much better job with this product. So many improvements such as the on-screen interface, better login and connectivity results, real solenoids, much nicer physical cabinet, and (slightly) better responsiveness to the community with system issues.
Yes this flipper delay was the elephant in the room overshadowing all that stuff
599 compare to 2000 not worth the difference in price
@@sunnydelight3046 Sunny, I own both. The 4K unit blows away the HD unit on all comparisons. And, 4K ALP has huge advantage of playing Zen tables natively without needing a very good gaming PC and OTG setup knowledge. And, with potential of 100s of VPX tables getting on-boarded with only a USB drive, you’ve got something really special here.
I don’t even play the HD ALP anymore and just listed it for sale. The SSF kit on the 4K ALP takes virtual pinball to another level!
You say at the beginning frame delay of 7 seconds down to 4 seconds … is that supposed to be screen frames?
And it’s all about expectations the company set (4K) and then what they delivered (far less than 4K) … so I don’t blame people for being disappointed, regardless of how enjoyable the games are … which may be high now, just not what was promised.
Great video review PDubs!
👊🏻😎🕹️
@@tedadamgreen there is a pop up on the bottom of the screen that clarifies it is frames per second whenever I speak about that.
@@PDubsArcadeLoft ah! Thats on me for listing to a video I should be watching 🤣
My bad PDubs … great work
👊🏻🕹️😎
Love the new intro. Great job.
I'm glad you like it
Nice to hear about the lag improvement. I guess I can finally buy one now. I just wish they had a skin of my favorite pinball game, Champion Pub!
That is a fun game
Video starts at 9:18 when PDubs smiles.
Hahah lol
I would say the ultimate test is: If these tables were released this way from the beginning, i doubt anybody would be complaining about flipper response issues. We are only hyper-sensitive to it now because the darned things didn't work right at the beginning. But yeah, I would say it's a "fix". The resolution issue has been there from day one, doesn't bother me at all, but I can totally see why it irritates some people. 80% of the tables ARE 4K, so I'm wondering if this is another indication that the contract with Zen was a last-minute add-on to this platform, and the only way to really make it work was to run it at 1440. Someone with inside info would know better than me.
@@peteg475 agreed and unfortunately I don't have that inside info
@@PDubsArcadeLoft Don't get me wrong - the Zen games are a big draw for the machine. So if forced to choose between having no Zen tables at all with every other table running at 4K, or having the Zen tables included (along with everything else) that run at reduced resolution, I want the latter and not the former. I really like a lot of the MP tables, but Zen makes it a more enticing purchase.
Lag improvements are noticeable and make the gameplay fun for Zen tables. I am playing it more. However, the latest Universal Pack (ET, Jaws, BTTF) along with AFM, ST:TNG, TZ & World Cup Soccer are all 1260p from Wagner's list. We'll have to see if this reduced from 1440p res is a trend on future packs for performance.
Let’s hope not
Spot on, PDubs! I'm happy with the updates; annoyed it's not 4k (but not necessarily a deal breaker), and really enjoy playing the Zen tables now. Oh -- Back to the Future is a MUST BUY! ET and Jaws are a bonus. I have one table that won't load anymore and AtGames is basically going to force me to do a reset of the whole deal. That'll be a lost Saturday.
Yeah I’ll probably pick up that pack over the weekend
I agree with the difference between the ball loaded and the table playing. Testing on VPX, there's a frame drop once the table is actually playing.
Not a complaint, just an oberservation.
@@CoffeeAtJoes agreed 👍🏻
Spitting facts!
@@COIFISHGAMING thank you
Hell yes pdubs! Great video!
Glad you enjoyed! Thanks buddy!
The Truth Shall Set You Free (Of Lag). Amen! If it was 4-5 Seconds delay though that would be too much my dubs! The first rebuild of the tables, they can refine it more from here. I haven't noticed any ball stutters or audio stutters on the rebuilt tables which I did notice on the previous versions which is great as well as improved audio volume.
@@carlo1132 yes 4-5 frames per second like the pop up said, not actually a 5 second delay, you know what I meant
@@PDubsArcadeLoft I do! Come get me on the leaderboards I am number 1 on Star Trek Discovery, the fixes have greatly improved my scores. I think it would be 4k on zen if they were still on fx3, the unreal engine on fx just too hard to run them at 4k unless yu have a dedicated gaming pc like I have with a 3080ti, 12900k.
The remaining question for me is, will Zen eventually bring the tables up to 4K resolution?
I don't know. I hope so
@@PDubsArcadeLoft If Zen has to reduce the playfield resolution in order to reduce flipper lag, then Zen really needs to get away from Unreal Engine.
They’ve got a real 4K playfield, but they display a QHD image on it, instead of UHD. That’s a letdown.
The AQLP (“AtGames QHD Legends Pinball Machine”) still seems like the best VPin deal on Earth right now, so if i decide to buy one , I will reconcile with 1440p, but I really do want a real 4K image, since that’s what they have advertised.
cant wait to order my hd natural history pinball pack on the 26th
If you don't want to purchase a pc and want a plug and play cabinet, the alp 4kp is still the best option under $2000. If you just want to play the zen pc games and vpx at high fps with no cabinet, then a used rog ally extreme would be the cheapest way.
@@MikeS-qk6gd good stuff here thank you
I have a Stern pinball machine, It's HD with no lag. I love it
Hahaha lol
I think they should allow people to adjust the video settings just like you would with an external GPU on a PC. People who don’t play modern games don’t understand that resolution is just one choice you make to get the max out of your system. For example a 4070 playing Cyberpunk can hit 60fps @4k but you have to use lower quality settings, turn on FSR (a scaling algorithm) etc. Now is the 4070 pc a 4K gaming rig? Yes and No.
Given the hardware is exactly the same for Alp4k’s they are basically saying playing the Zen games at 1440p with higher quality texture mapping is the best video settings. If they allowed people to tweak their own settings then there are people who would play at 4K/60 with lower texture settings and be ok with it, while other people would drop the resolution and play with higher texture settings. The marketing of it being a 4K machine is as accurate as Nvdia saying the 4070 is a 4K gpu.
Again, trying to reduce video quality to just resolution is part of the issue here, and Nintendo figured this out long ago when Sony and Xbox were trying to out resolute each other, Nintendo launched the Wii (and later the Switch) knowing that resolution is only one variable in creating a great gaming experience. I remember all these critics lambasting them - the Switch moved 30million units so they had the last laugh.
Specs are just numbers, resolution, frame rates, input lag all contribute to the experience, and what makes a product like the ALP4k pretty great is they are not trying to outspec a $7000 vpin custom build, they are trying to make compromises on specs to save cost (and it is not relative, you have to pay a lot more for an incremental improvement in experience). For the money it is a great purchase, though they have taken 9 months since launch to get where it should have been at the start.
Also, you could put together a pc build under $800 to run Pinball Fx at high quality video settings with a resolution of 4k60fps as graphics wise VPin is not too taxing (plus some of the latest VPX tables are stunning on the ALP4k). So if it important to have the highest video settings then it is not too much of an investment to achieve them.
I would love them to create a limited edition cabs with a 42” 4K/144hz lcd, use the Unico 4:3 for the back glass, increase the size of the DMD monitor. Offer with the SF kit already installed for $3k. Maybe call it the Pro. I think a lot of people would be ok using the Atgames eco system still in that scenario (1440p on a 42” monitor can still look pretty good) but if you wanted to you could add a gaming rig allowing you to have a vpin on par with most customs for $5k. It would likely make a huge dent in that market as you would save $2-4K but still have the AAA experience.
Appreciate the feedback, great info here
If we don't have the most accurate results why don't you do your own review and results so we can compare?
The good news is the playfield is 32 inches. So 1440p will look pretty good. But not as good as 4k would look.
@@MikeS-qk6gd yeah they still look nice albeit you want thst 4k
Note that most of the Zac tables are also available on pc or even android. The only exclusives for atgames are the taito tables and the natural history and dr suess tables. The zen fx3 tables are also available on android.
Me…just waiting for a starwars themed 4K ALP
Might happen! Might be mandalorian themed from rumors I’m hearing
@@PDubsArcadeLoft i could be down for that
If you buy all the table packs they come to 875usd and zen haven't released all FX tables yet so that number will rise. Considering at best half of the tables will play at 1440p 60hz (most wanna play zen tables not 4 different versions of house of diamonds/space shuttle etc) doesnt seem great value once you add nearly 2k for the table and ssf kit.
I'm glad that I bought most of the packs minus Zen on sale and the SSF Kit on sale so it hurts a bit less.
I am able to play zen tables in 4K (Pimax crystal light) with no lag In VR. Jaws, E.T., Back to the Future all run beautifully in FXVR. But that is coded in an older engine. *Hint *Hint Zen.
VR Pinball is crazy fun but I do get a little motion sickness
thx good info respect!
No problem!
Has nobody noticed that not only has the resolution dropped to fix the lag, but the ball has basically become a static object moving around like the Gottlieb tables on the Legends HD? or that there isn't any lighting that is affected by the ball passing in front of lights like on the inner lanes, etc? Compare lighting on the Magic Pixel tables to the improved Zen tables and you will quickly notice the issue. Yes the lag is fixed, but the cost is pretty steep in terms of how they got there.
The problem is the chip in the alp 4kp is not powerful enough for pinball fx. They are lowering the graphics and effects and maybe the resolution to fix the lag. No different than playing any game on an underpowered PC.
I had to do the same thing to get pinball fx to run decent on my SD.
@@MikeS-qk6gd We aren't talking about OTG, that is the product of what you currently own connected to the unit; I am able to run Pinball FX in 4k on it without issue, but it would be nice to just turn the damn thing on and have a comparable experience without the need to turn on the PC. I am just making an observation about the concessions that had to be made to get these tables playable. And remember that those of us that own the 4KP bought it on the promise we would get a top of the line experience for a premium price over the Legends HD. Almost double the price in fact.
@@darthdorkimusprime7231 I am taking about the atgames ecosystem games. The beefiness of the pc would determine the capabilities through otg.
@@darthdorkimusprime7231 my SD comment was to compare the lag. Playing pinball fx on the SD is laggy just like the native alp 4kp tables. You have to drop graphic settings to reduce the lag. The root cause is the same. The hardware is not powerful enough to run pinball fx at full power.
The problem is the chip in the alp 4kp is not powerful enough for pinball fx. They are lowering the graphics and effects and maybe the resolution to fix the lag. No different than playing any game on an underpowered PC.
1.7B is your best on AFM? Sounds like you only made a few skill shots. Ha.
Thanks for the ongoing feedback here. I was in the TAF pre-order but took advantage of the offer to cancel after the delays and playing it at Expo.
Maybe I'll revisit it down the road but feel good about my decision at the moment.
With that flipper delay being so bad and not completing games and rage quitting, yeah. Now I can actually play all 3 balls without quitting
Hahahahaha at rage quitting! Kudos my friend.
Who has $4-500 for ssf? or $250 for a control panel? The prices are crazy.
That's why I'm glad I was a day 1 preorder and saved a lot of money on that stuff
I agree with the bait and switch advertising. I bet the fine print will say up to 4k. Also agree with your assessment of the testing. That isn’t an accurate test. Plus every time you update an atgames product it is reflashing the hardware which in the past has caused issues on previous machines. Trust me I know after having two machines die. I don’t own this product but I assume it works the same way. It definitely isn’t like updating your ps5/xbox
Thanks Bo! I’m sorry to hear what you’ve gone through
Yes it matters because if you're not putting a strain on the game that flip a lag will go up by four or five frames and if Zen you didn't put out android-based games on a 4K table this wouldn't be an issue. this is what happens when you get a POS port of a phone game on a table
@@Pitbull0669 appreciate the opinion!
@@PDubsArcadeLoft Damn straight you do lol
Yes, it is definitely better but I still think with optimization and them still working on it. We might be able to get it down another 1015 even 20% and at that point it pretty much is fixed.
Hope so!
Its *ADVERTISED* as a 4K pinball machine, but they never said all of the tables they release would be released in 4K. 🙂
Still, that’s not going to sit right with some customers
@@PDubsArcadeLoft 100% Agree with that but that's how I would expect AtGames to frame it to avoid it being a bait and switch.
Before I drop some coin.. Do I remember correctly? Running VPX tables has NO lag…? Thanks DUBs
There will always be lag in virtual pinball, heck even real Pinball. But if you are around 5 frames per second delay or less (preferred 3) it'll be an enjoyable experience for most
Someone tested vpx on Reddit. Yes there is lag.
@@lafesterremember how much. I don’t expect perfection, but less than the what AtGames is putting out. Thanks
@@troymcdonald So there you have it: an average of ~131ms of total input lag when playing VPX in OTG mode. The 4KP hardware seems to be adding roughly 10-15ms of lag on the input side and roughly 25-35ms of lag on the output side, for a total of ~35-60ms of added lag. This is definitely falling short of my soft target of 100ms or less of total lag, which explains why OTG play on the 4KP doesn't feel great right now. Pinball FX is especially bad at ~150ms of total lag, which feels borderline unplayable to me. The native Attack from Mars table is similar right now to VPX OTG. If this level of lag doesn't bother you, I'm happy for you, but it definitely bothers me.
@@chrispeters8785 I'm waiting for like Back to the Future (cabinet), but i'm still holding off for a better experience with OTG. But I may up the creek and it'll be what it will be... ?? (I personally don't plan on playing anything but OTG.)
With Atgames track records, is this really a surprise? You would think if they used a better PCB and chipset board, they wouldn't have these problems. Could they of used a better board or is this a budget decision? Remember the price your paying for this cab.
I’m not an expert on how much these things cost coming from china with the corresponding markups passed on to the consumer
First! 👊🏼
@@TheCornerCade winner winner chicken dinner
Congrats Danny!
So glad I didn't buy one
Appreciate the feedback!
The truth is Atgames is ripping off everyone of their customers by calling this a 4K virtual pinball machine. But most UA-camrs will keep pushing these companies products that are ripping off people and hopes one day they’ll get stuff for free. Most UA-camrs don’t have any morals like PDubs.
Appreciate the opinion!
I've bought every game as the fixes have been implemented and the games perform 100 percent better. The picture quality hasn't been affected and the screen looks great 4K or not. I was a major complainer about the lag and feel it's a non issue now. This is still the best quality VPIN your going to get for the money. I have no problem with 1700 dollars , that's what i paid with all the upgrades, compared to 6,000 to 10,000 for anything else. And they aren't plug and play. You still have to know the ins and outs to use them. I'm not even remotely interested in that. I just want to be able to turn it on and play. This does that perfectly. I'd like to see them put out a bigger table in the future.
When you are advertising *4K* ? 1440P is a HORRIBLE LIE. It's legally actionable, in fact. False Advertising.
*It's a Scam.*
Dude do you know anything about this topic? They have almost 190 tables and over 80 percent are in 4k, its on the publishers to set the resolution not atgames and zen set them at the resolution that runs the best. Anyone who runs otg knows what it takes computer wise to run Zen steam at 4k.
Correct only the Zen Games are not 4K at the moment. Let's see what happens.
Video starts at 0:00, lol just kidding. Like MK11 I'm gonna get this, but I'm gonna wait till all the improvements/dlc when they release the ultimate edition for $20, then I'm gonna buy into this.
@@kevinclauson7613 lol Ultimate Edition! 😆