DS Audio ES 001 Eccentricity Detection Stabilizer-Listen For Yourself!
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- DS Audio's ES 001 Eccentricity Stabilizer uses lasers and computer control to read record grooves in real time to help you center even slightly eccentric records to remove even the smallest traces of "wow" on your records. Once correctly centered whatever residual "wow" you hear is either from your turntable, the mastering lathe or even the tape playback machine.
Using the device (as you'll see) is actually a form of analog "fun". The ES 001 costs around $6000 so it's clearly not for everyone but it is for those who can afford it who listen to a great deal of classical music and especially for those who have collectible records that are marred by groove eccentricity. It really works! Watch.
Oh, god, another insanely expensive gadget the world shouldn't need.
I use a turntable with a removable spindle and center discs using a thin stick (often a small artist's paint brush).
So simple, so cheap, no electronics, and no reaming.
You can do the same compensation much more cheaply by moving your head backwards and forwards 33 times a minute thanks to the doppler effect. I believe that was the origin of headbanging.
A more noticeable difference than I expected. Thanks for the demonstration.
I remember the Nakamichi Dragon Turntable that did this automatically. Pretty cool stuff.
Handy indeed but yes, out of my price range. Still, as always I get a chance to live vicariously through you, Michael. 🥰
how much is it, i cant find the price
@@declin_ro3823 Michael is reporting it at $6000 USD 🙂
@@rachelsghost HOLY SHIT
@@declin_ro3823 Yes, definitely not for everyone, BF 😊
It looks like the cockpit screen of an X wing fighter.
The uncorrected sounded more like an artifact, a record playing. The corrected sounded more like live musicians.
Exactly what I thought.
Fascinating tool Michael. Agree that uncentered vinyl doesn't get enough discussion.
Pro tip - might be worth investing in a $20 mini video camera/iphone tripod or clip...it was a little hard to discern what was the needle swaying ...and what your hand held camera work!
I love this device and the demo, if it were 1/3 that price I would have already ordered one!
Thanks Michael for a very interesting video demonstration of this highly desirable but alas unaffordable device. Most vinyl records pressed today are a little to a lot off centre, usually on one side only. Why the pressing machine manufacturers cannot address this so that it is eliminated is astounding to me, to be honest. I think, from experience, the Canadian WarmTone presses do a much better job at pressing concentric vinyl than any other. A pressing plant here in Ireland, Dublin Vinyl, has a few WarmTone presses and I have never seen such perfectly centred spindle holes ... on both sides! I would say, based on what I have seen, Dublin Vinyl is as good if not better than anything pressed in Japan in terms of concentric vinyl. Warner Pioneer Corporation in Japan were absolutely ace in this aspect of record manufacturing, exceeding JVC easily, based again on my experience.
What I did not fully understand though about the DS Audio device is that, yes, it will tell you that the record as positioned on the spindle is 'off centre'. You can, as you did, 'play around' with this and sometimes you will get the record to spin concentrically. If however, the spindle hole needs correction, the DS Audio device does not appear to tell you where the problem lies? You will need to 'shave' a particular part of the spindle hole with a reamer or a round file in this case, but it is vital that you 'shave' or enlarge the correct point where the record edge juts out most, on rotation. Must this be done with your eyes? Despite the exciting technology that this accessory presents, it is up to you, the user, to intervene when a spindle hole needs to be corrected? I have been fixing 'off centre' spindle holes for years to the point now that I can do this extremely well, neatly and 'invisibly'. I like to call it 'invisible mending'. I had to fix one record of a 2LP set that I bought as recently as last Saturday. Record 2 was visibly 'off' and I had to intervene. The record was the recently reissued Paul Weller '22 Dreams' reissue on Island Records, pressed at Record Industry in the Netherlands. It now spins beautifully, concentrically and the spindle hole looks unchanged. I think the improvements we heard in your video when a record is correctly centred, were undeniable.
It a shame that this device is so costly. It puts it outside the financial reach of most people. Speaking personally, while I could afford it, I can do the exact same job using my eyes and my round file. I don't play 'off centre' records without first fixing them. It takes practice to become adept at this, but practice does make perfect.
I am greatly looking forward to your website which I understand will be up and running next month. Greetings from Cork, Ireland!
You are overthinking it. You merely enlarge the spindle hole (if required). Then you set the position of the record such that it spins concentrically.
@@Fluterra Isn’t that precisely what I said? Read my response again. I have been doing this for years. If you are blessed with decent eyesight and know what is involved you certainly don’t need to drop $6k on this device which simply tells you what should be already obvious. Spin the record on your turntable and note where the outer rim protrudes most on rotation. The spindle hole needs to be adjusted at the point that directly coincides with the point on the outer rim. I hesitate to use the word ‘enlarge’ and prefer ‘shave’. If you ‘enlarge’ the spindle hole excessively you run the risk of ruining the record. It’s easy once you get the hang of it, but it needs practice. Most spindle holes look exactly the same on my records even after adjusting them. Hence my use of the phrase ‘invisible mending’. Oftentimes the off centre rotation is caused by part of the paper label extending beyond or over the spindle hole. A gentle ‘shaving’ back of the paper with a round file will achieve concentric rotation.
Wow. Pretty significant difference to my ears. Nice product.
Michael, good afternoon. after installing the plate on the disc, I insert a thin cambrick into the spindle from above.And I think it helps)).Calculating that the geometry of the disk corresponds to.That's the solution.Thanks for the video!
This is very interesting. But my comment is definitely off centre. I was playing The Jefferson Airplane track, Today, and I remembered I bought this album after watching your top 100. I believe you played this song. You are a great man and your work in this field is unparalleled. Many thanks
Very entertaining. You can really tell the difference especially with the second record. I was all excited until you laid the $6k bomb on us!
Fixed - Sounds more dynamic and engaging. Very interesting. Thanks!
But major eccentricity is why we love your videos !
I heard the DS in DS Audio stands for dumb sh*t because you have to be one to pay $6k for that.
Another toy for the moneyphiles to impress their moneyphile friends!
Love this. Wish I had one back in the LP heyday. Would have kept more.
For 6 grand I'll center my records using a different amazing tool, *my eyes*
What a fascinating product. Thanks for demonstration.
Wow ! Music technology has come along way since I listened to my JBL 100s on my Marantz receiver at Berkeley in the early 70s
Oh! Just great! Another thing to obsess over when playing vinyl.
Please no more equipment for CDO I mean OCD suffers aka Audiophiles to have to suffer , Thank you for adding to my already obsessive compulsions
The problem of off-center records is, in my view, underappreciated by audiophiles. Archivists use turntables with removable or smaller-diameter spindles, and making sure every record runs true is best archival practice. I noticed the effect more on the piano record, but bear in mind that the effect is stronger the nearer you get to the label.
Absolutely. I bet CD fans found that unforgivable. While doing lots of DIY mods to vintage record players and learning of Nakamichi Dragon-CT I just could not reconcile this awful aspect though my hifi buddy swore it was unimportant as the headshell swung side to side...
Removing the spindle is probably the easiest solution to adjust the record. Since a smaller spindle still limits on any majorly off center pressings, but honestly those will have bad edges of the record with no lead up deadwax.
I'd actually feel using a cheap USB microscope that you can easily place above the turntable, then you check the runout groove like they do at stamping plants to check for proper centering and adjust the record, let it spin and draw a dot in the center with a marker to remark the center hole for reaming.
Sure the marker isn't pretty, but you're also effectively redrilling a hole to fix a pressing error. So I'd figure the value of the record to actually improve the sound quality would improve value for playability.
Nice review. It was interesting to see if the audio recordings would clearly highlight how significant the “wow” would be present.
Chad would be happy with this kind of tool if he does needle drops again, if not already used it. 😎
What a great video to drink my morning coffee to
At this point, might as well get the CD
You are showing us just how imprecise vinyl records are. Just an absolute disc from 1908.
Yep! It's quite fascinating how "audiophiles" are so in love with such a deeply flawed format. Forever trying (in vain) to try to make their records sound as good as a CD 🤣 hehehe
I am no longer in the vinyl world but that's rather interesting Michael.
Great demo! Oh how I wish I could afford one. This is something I'm so sensitive to, and it absolutely ruins the experience when encountered. I guess a reamer and my ears will have to do until the tech comes down in price.
Great demo!
Just get a CD or stream. Humans are really hopeless. The age of music on plastic, augmented by digital devices, is truly decadent
Two thumbs up!
Id get this before spending the same on a table. Clearly audible.
Interesting device. My collection isn’t nearly big enough to invest in something like that yet. However it’s good to know that it exist. PS please do another room tour. I’m pretty sure you got a lot of new gear.
There was a Nakamichi turntable that would detect the degree of eccentricity and correct it by pushing the record at the precise point to reduce or eliminate the potential wow and flutter. The center spindle was removable. Most of today's turntables have it permanently attached to the platter so you can't do the same even with eyeballing. Therefore it's either a $6000 tool which eyeballs it for you (after reaming), or you can do it yourself. I hope I win the lottery this weekend so that I can buy one. My Foreigner and KISS records will sound much better.
Wow without knowing it just sound like the vibrato of the instrument, but the corrected version sounds much in tune!
wow! interesting technology there Mike
On the second record the violin sounded sweeter after correction, more natural. Please Michael,can you do an in depth video on your new OMA K3 please and hopefully at some point a factory tour!
nakamichi turntable tx-1000 addressed this very issue of off centred records by way of self-centering mechanism that eliminates the wow caused by the spindle hole being punched off center.
We need a turntable a-la nakamichi mated with a device like this via remote so it can be done automatically. This is too much of a hassle!
The noise level up and down before correction (still gap for improvement) actually you don't need to remove the device after adjustment
Puts me to mind of the Nakamichi Dragon Computing Turntable from the '80s...which among other things was supposed to be able to detect and correct for off-centre pressings...
I bet that “eccentricity detector” goes wild whenever it’s pointed at any audiophile.
Man O’ man, “throwing a record on the hi-fi” is becoming quite the process…. Nifty tool though.
Wanna play a record? First, clean it using a vacuum. Next, check it's centred and ream out the hole. Then, anti-stat gun and brush. After that, place an outer ring and clamp on the record. Nearly there, clean your stylus. Now you're ready to play for 15 minutes until flipping the record and doing it all again!
This just demonstrates another inadequacy of the vinyl system.
Amen! Buggy-whip technology!
Great topic. Thx for posting. Could TA also post a video on converting LP's to digital files; gear & software to use, process, etc.
It's a shame the Nakamichi TX-1000 turntable is no longer available. It had an automatic centring method to solve this issue
Warning, if you buy this device you will get depressed, because you'll realise that the majority of the records you own are not perfectly centered, which is a shame really, because there isn't a reason for them to be like that, thanks for the video.
Hi its a bit like a woodworkers lathe if the wood is not true it is wonky
Another option would be to fit a slightly smaller spindle on your platter, if your turntable allows. I’ve seen this done for archival/restoration work. That way, you wouldn’t have to file your spindle hole.
I don't know why people don't come up with an accessory that's a piece of transparent plastic disc that's placed over the playing vinyl with multiple accurately printed concentric circles so the user can adjust the record lining up the run-out groove with one of the circles. You don't get the $5K sensor but you can eyeball it to pretty close accuracy. Once done, remove plastic disc and play music. It can cost only $5. Instead of reaming out the center hole, I would file down the bottom portion of the spindle. Of course, easier to do on turntables with detachable spindles. I believe a Frank Schroeder designed turntable once had a spindle like that.
@@HP_____ Was thinking the same. Surely in this age of 3-D printers, this should be a simple thing to create.
Nakamichi made a table that did this automatically
Yes, it moved the platter to compensate
@@trackingangle929 Which is very cool but some would say a detached platter is prone to resonance. It seems that while dealing with the issues of vinyl is fun and part of the hobby, it’s also like a never ending game of wack-a-mole. And now that we know digital can be introduced into the vinyl chain with very few listeners the wiser, can we still say there is a sonic need for vinyl (other fun aspects of the hobby aside)? A serious question, and I (and I’m sure others) would love to hear your thoughts on it.
One Word: WOW!
BTW - The "TOMMY" 1st press British LP that Michael played to prove records, if properly cared for, can last a lifetime. I remember watching a video( possibly on the Analog Planet channel) where you can see the record has been pressed off center. Even with no audio, you can see the tonearm swaying in and out.
You can even see the tonearm tracking slightly side to side on off centered records.
I think Darth Vader had one of these. He’s big into vinyl and correct setup/ tracking force.
Lol it's all about the "force"
this is really cool. i'm trying to think of ways to do it diy or cheaply... or just by ear.
any ideas folks?
How did you deal with the washer that's part of the SME record clamping system? I don't understand how you were able to switch back to the SME clamp after the centering process, without messing up the correction.
i bought an item called "center-disc" in 1994, it was all manual and did the same improvement as this device but for 99 dollars and use it to this day... you center it once and no need to do it again, a-bit-late, ... even half speed or direct to disc or any record need this done to improve playback, once heard, you can't go back.... yes - a-bit-late boys
Clever solution. I like it.
I saw a demonstration of this item at a recent HiFi Show in the UK.....fascinating technology but MONSTER expensive for a solution that may affect on a fraction of someone's Collection - However, just like the early cavitation cleaning machines, this is likely to be a (relatively) reasonably priced item of the next five years or so....But are you going to invest in one yourself now Michael?
Are you supposed to hold the record while you remove the ES001 and put on the clamp? How can you ensure the record doesn’t shift when you do that?
Alas. Somebody got to it. The biggest elephant in the room. My personal hate about some records. How can they put a man on the moon and not match side A and B vinyl stamps????
Been wanting to come up with a solution for years. Nearly imported a Nakamichi (the cheaper one) from NYC about 10+ years ago for £2k but it fell through.
Then, was in a maker space making plinths and thinking up ways to centre reckurds but it closed down along with my attempts...
Once put an AT platter vac topper on my Garrard 401 and could nudge the Vynolium until the headshell stopped moving. Fiddly but could finally bear to listen to the bad wonkers....
I knew the second record would be RTI. I still have trouble with off center records from them.
Another vinyl rabbit hole to go down. I'll stick to my CDs, thank you very much.
Weak
Solving problems Digital solved 30 years ago, Thought audiophiles cherished wow & flutter
I shared that on my DS Audio FB group before it came out, I thought it was going to be $5500
6 grand could buy a lot of records. But this device is certainly amazing. Hopefully they come down in price & are more widespread within the next decade or so! :)
@Nicholas out of curiosity was hoping you could share your homebrew method
It took me a couple of listens before i got it. And that was because i was concentrating on differentiating. More noticeable on the 45. In a blind test compensated for "order effect", i probably would not have noticed, i would have just put it down to overtones from viola tremolando. In fact, i prefer the 1st drop of the 45. Maybe the composer should have scored tremalando fingering for the string soloist? I feel it gives the strings a little more presence. I guess im lucky in that i quickly get lost in the music. $6K luckier!
They’ve said on other forums they aren’t lasers, they’re LEDs.
I don’t see how anyone who’s spent a significant amount of money on a turntable or cartridge could not invest in one.
As with record cleaners, the fact is that $10K or more in LP playback gear is dependent upon that piece of plastic you’re spinning, and even a $500K turntable/cartridge won’t sound right if the LP isn’t centered.
If I said lasers I believe I misspoke. Was actually phasers…😀
@@trackingangle929 Set to 'stun', of course.
This is cool!
Hi Michael, from your demo and through my iPhone, it seems that given that the second record was MUCH more improved with the device than the first record, this DS device makes a big improvement on very eccentric records. But on mildly or perhaps moderately eccentric records the improvement is there, but not as great. Possibly marginal?
That’s of course true
On a mildly eccentric record, only the innermost track or a sustained note would have audible error (unless you have perfect pitch,
in which case you probably hate vinyl already! I have a ton of records that sound great up until the last 3-4 minutes and then the wow / wobble is obvious.
I think a perfectly centered pressing is more the exception rather than the rule, especially with vintage LPs. It is definitely easier for the "naked ear" to hear it on piano recordings. Sometimes it's easier to hear it at the ends of sides, but in lieu of this device, it's easiest to see and adjust it at the start of a side (in eyeballing it). Perhaps it's obvious, but it's worth noting that one may have a record perfectly centered, but if the turntable itself is not quite level this will add to the problem. Or an old belt which is no longer producing a stable rotation. Does this device show or reflect those aspects? Interesting that a reamer is included. I just use a knife which I rotate....not something you want to do if you want to resell a valuable record. I would be curious as to how this device does on 78 rpms. That's where you really hear off-center issues plain as day, because of the shorter rotation times. My friends in the transfer business have several sized removable spindles, which are essential. A really thin one sounds great for this, but means every disc played must be carefully centered. Most of the time a spindle which allows SOME play is best. With 78s you must use this method, as using a reamer on 78 shellac is, for obvious reasons, not an option.
I don't know why people don't come up with an accessory that's a piece of transparent plastic disc that's placed over the playing vinyl with multiple accurately printed concentric circles so the user can adjust the record lining up the run-out groove with one of the circles. You don't get the $5K sensor but you can eyeball it to pretty close accuracy. Once done, remove plastic disc and play music. It can cost only $5. Instead of reaming out the center hole, I would file down the bottom portion of the spindle. Of course, easier to do on turntables with detachable spindles. I believe a Frank Schroeder designed turntable once had a spindle like that.
pretty cool, way out of my price range though but I do need to buy a spindle hole reamer for sure.
I can't believe how easy it is to hear the difference as there are so fewer beats between tones. They are more consistent.The tones with less wandering and variations The second correction is like the difference between and old puck driven table and the best DD turntables. What a difference. . What does it do with a warped record? Are you going to review the SME 60 and compare it to your Scandinavian turntable? This device could easily spoil you.
A dial indicator and a reamer should get the same results in my opinion. I do hear less distortion but im hearing it through my phone and UA-cam.
#1 it's nice to see that your records are as noisy as mine :) #2 isn't it too bad that you can't get a Nakamichi type turntable today that will take care of the geometry issue for you? #3 That second record is so bad that you would need to ream it out quite a bit. I think it's great that they make such a device. Good Video.
Did you happen to measure the diameter of the hole after correction? Just curious how much it takes... I noticed the pitch warble way more on the piano than the violin.
I heard more of a difference on the piano recording. To be expected. Since I usually just eyeball records as they spin and correct them if they seem slightly off, I probably won't be plunking down $3,000 on one.
WOW! Thanks for an amazing demo...........Too bad about the price.
I owned a Nakamichi Dragon ct and wished i never sold it….
Although I never used it, it seems to tackle one if the most innoying problems with analog. Many of my ordinary records could use this tool.
I know it is expensive, for me too, but it is only because it is not mass market.
I wonder why it does not seem to get the recognition I am sure it deserves.
And I wonder why a small company must come up with this fantastic device, while other companies can build turntables which costs 100.000 and more and are not able to come up with something similar, maybe build in like some Nakamichis once had.
And I wonder why Michael is somehow quite. He who does so much for analig keeps for my taste too quite when it comes to this matter. Why is he not regulary mention this, when he us testing multi million dollar turntables. Does he think that a rurntable us not benefit so mucj from a device like this. 50 years and all turntable manufacturer are still not able to do what Nakamichi 50 years before did .
Sorry for my harsh opionion, but I think from a physical standpoint it is desirable to center records.
So kudos to DS Audio. Well done. Maybe they will be able to build a cheaper version once.
I got Ortofon to make me a stylus out of King Tut's meteorite dagger he was buried with. Let's say the sound is, "out of this world."
Informative look at an interesting gadget (OK tool). But Michael, I'm concerned about you. Based on the last scene it appears you've stepped into the looking-glass world!
The only difference I can hear is the decay of the notes. Without the adjustment the decay is not steady. With the adjustment the decay is smooth and seamless.
This company needs to make a cheaper version, perhaps something that uses your phone as the screen rather than having it built in could cut the price.
Why would I buy a turntable after seeing this?
Makes my Mo Fi digital one step sound even more analogue 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I think the first record shows the value of this device, more than the latter as Oistrakh’s massive amount of vibrato makes it more difficult to discern.
Would you be able to put higher res files up for download like you have in the past?
listen to the sustained orchestral chords underneath Oistrakh's violin and it's quite easy to hear it.
$6,000 for this thing....holy smokes man!
Great results. But that price!! Ouch!!
Why are the first captures louder than the second? 3:15 4:38 / 6:19 8:03
So, to center a record you have to ream out the center hole so it is larger than the spindle?
I wish it wasn't so expensive. I would buy one to center all my QRP pressings.
I saw somewhere that there was a computer program that can sense and correct an off-center record.
Thank you!
wow
Do they make one for CDs? :) lol
But Michael, what happens if there is no ability to move the record on the platter to ‘fix’ the issue?
My thoughts exactly??
@@howiefeltersnatch69 I guess you use the reaming tool and widen the hole!
Wow! Did not know how much it could improve the sound! 🤩 and I think piano is the best instrument recorded to test these kind of things 👌👍✌️🍾🥂
Now for a $6000 device, the record sounds just like the $5 CD. Unnecessary piece of bullocks equipment, again.
@@rabarebra depends on what did you spend on your rig it would be worthwhile to bring out the best from I guess 👌
@@rabarebra depends on what did you spend on your rig it would be worthwhile to bring out the best from I guess 👌
@@rabarebra depends on what did you spend on your rig it would be worthwhile to bring out the best from I guess 👌
@@szabolcserdesz9159 This device is utter rubbish and totally unnecessary. You know it too, unless your dumb, which your comment testifies: "depends on what did you spend on your rig" - which you do not know. So if I spent a ton lot of money on rig, it justifies this device? This shows how low your IQ is. And yes, I've spent tons on money on rig. But this thing is totally BS.
To invent rubbish gadget to compensate on product's faults/errors shows how dumb and easy-fooled people are.
There was a tool for record centering that came out sometime in the 80's I think. It was called Center-a-Disc as I recall. It was not too expensive, maybe $75, and actually worked. But it was a pain to use. Also you had to enlarge the center hole and use a special clamp. The record was no longer collectible or not even able to be resold. It wasn't around too long and I don't think it sold well. It was a rather ingenious invention though.
What happens if you go too far with the tool for the hole?
Maybe for six grand the correction should be done otherwise.
Have you ever tried using Green Stuff to fill in the gap so the spindle is centered?
Very interesting issue I was not aware of so far. Would a outer ring like VPI and Transrotor offer it for many of their turntables help on this issue with uncentricity? They are precisely machined and should limit the movement of the vinyl and keep/force it more towards the ideal center of the plater or am I wrong?
It's the relationship between the spindle hole and the grooves that cause eccentricity. The spindle hole can be perfectly centered in the disc and still have this issue because the grooves were pressed off center.
what happens with a record which is eccentric on one side, but okay on the other?
Michael: I see you remove the ES001 once aligned and clamp the record. Do you do anything to ensure the clamping doesn’t mess up the alignment?