The Most Fun You Can Have - The Carmudgeon Show w/ Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott - Ep 148
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
- This week, the Carmudgeons recap their recent 600-mile back-road blast, which resulted in a surprise Best Car for the Mission. Unrelated, an update on their newly-acquired V-12 cars.
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Jason and Derek now both own V-12-powered cars. Jason confesses his 850 CSI purchase, which happened while he was doing research for an upcoming Revelations episode. Derek lit his on fire while learning that it needs an engine rebuild.
Turns out the BMW 850CSi has the shortest gear ratios of any V-12 car ever sold - and Jason is a self-described whore for short gearing.
Meanwhile, Derek bought a V12, manual Ferrari that has no compression in several cylinders.
The main subject of the episode is one of Jason and Derek's many friend-group backroad trips in Northern California. As usual, it was a varied group of cars:
Jason brought "Beatrice," his E30 BMW 325i sedan.
Derek brought his race-prepped Mk5 Volkswagen GTI.
Also present was a BMW Z3 2.8, an NA Miata, a GR Corolla, and one car that was very much not appropriate for tight mountain roads:
A C126 Mercedes 560SEC.
And the Mercedes was, by far, everyone's favorite. Wildly obese and far too large, with non-performance tires, the W126-chassis Mercedes should have been miserable. And what it instead demonstrated was perfect chassis balance, an indefatigable, 300-hp Euro/Japan-spec 5.5-liter engine, and a riotous time.
Sometimes, it's the wrong car on the right road that's the most fun.
This episode is sponsored by Vyper Industrial - America’s #1 rated shop chair, tool carts, and creepers, proudly made here in the US. Go to www.vyperindustrial.com/ and use code HAGERTY for $50 off on all your order!
I'm honestly surprised Jay Leno hasn't called up Jason and been like "Hey, you wanna try my McLaren F1?" It's not like they haven't shared a space (Jay drove the Sirocco after all). I mean come now... we all know there's going to be an Icons episode about the F1-- it's inevitable.
Agreed, however, there are insurance considerations, the F1 is now worth upwards of $20million (or more!), so any damage is going to be a big problem. And yes, I know Hagerty is an insurance company.
Likely like Doug DeMuro, he can’t get insured.
I hope Jay does this-
As far as insurance, Jason works for Hagerty, I hope they can figure something out
My guess would be Jason knows he could ask once, but he’d rather cash in that ticket for a Hagerty video
@lgunderso2117 Jason just shared a story about Hagerty not insuring him in a Rimac Nevera. They flew the car and a crew out and it got shut down at the last minute.
"Driving that car fast, sounds like taking out the recycling!" 😂😂😂
It's so enjoyable to see the rapport you two share, vicariously live through your stories, and just soak up the depth of knowledge that you articulate with conviction, pathos, and humor. A wonderful hour well spent. Great episode!
This comment is so well written you've inspired me to refine my craft. Kudos!
"The Mayflower had BF Goodrich Radial T/As on it" 😂
More fun to go fast in a slow car than slow in a fast one.
Pretty much my 944 makes 100hp it's so much run ripping around at 50mph since it feels like 70 in my focus ST lol
I probably commented my old favorite Mercedes story already, but i don't get tired of it:
My first car was a W123 wagon with the NA 3L 5cyl Diesel and a 4 speed manual. (that was 1999)
During mil service (we have conscription and i volunteered for a year) there was an incident where we would go to an indoor swimming pool for some swimming exams. (swimming a certain distance in a given time and jumping form 5m height)
But it was the last day of the week and we were to go home after it. So instead of the option to then go back to the base and start journey back home from there, we opted to drive to the swimming thing in our own cars with our luggage in the cars and be dismissed from there. Only those who travelled home by train needed a lift. So the cars in line were: a Puch (mercedes) G300D, my W123 300D, a then pretty new Golf 1.9TDi, a new Fiat Bravo 1.9Tdi and a VW van (T3! Diesel)
The G was piloted by our NCO and had 3 Passengers, the VW Bus was piloted by a conscript driver, and the rest was piloted by "us".
The road lead us over a little twisty mountain road (eastern end of the alps) and nobody in my car including me, knew the way. So my intention was just stay in sight distance to the G and all is fine. I had no doubt that the two new cars would be keeping up with us easily and given that the G had the same engine as my car, but weighing way more i was confident to be able to keep up with it.
So when the uphill twisty section started i got busy... The good old W123 was doing what i asked it too, my passengers were silent apart from gasping and shouting in surprise when seeing that the G in front of us took most of the tighter corners on 3 wheels! (inner rear wheel was in the air)
No tire squeel or understeer or any thing in the W123, the fully loaded car (with auto leveling suspension in the rear) was doing great. (despite it's 300k km on the clock) But as i said, i was busy. My right foot only leaving the floored throttle pedal when shifting or braking. (ok we were closer than just not loosing sight but i thought, if he can go that fast with that unsuitable car, i can with my a little less unsuitable too.)
When the descend started the NCO did reduce his speed a little, and we relaxed a bit in the car.
So i finally had time to look into the rear view mirror: empty. No Golf, no Fiat, nobody. Even a few km later when we reached city limits, still empty.
We then moved like a snail for some time, until they appeared in the mirror again. (as the NCO seemd to have noticed that they were missing too.)
When we reached the destination, the two drivers of the new cars got a little teased by my passengers because they couldn't keep up. And they called us crazy in return.
Much like your buddy, I also have a GR Corolla and an FD RX7 (actually 2, and some old Italian junk to boot) and I've always described the difference between the older cars and the GR exactly how you guys did. It's very fun for a modern car and very capable. But if you get into any old good car, and suddenly the GRC feels like driving an appliance. Great daily driver though, and the fun shines through more in the snow!
An ICONS idea that will probably never get made for cost reasons: A compendium of the McLaren F1 dynasty, with all the cars that influenced it and the ones influenced by it, featuring the first-gen NSX, 911 GT1, CLK GTR, LFA, Speedtail, and T.50/T.33. And obviously the McLaren F1. There are probably many others that I don't know or forgot.
Catchpole did a CLK GTR, 911 GT1 and McLaren F1 deep dive once for Carfection.
That's a really good idea. Ancestors & descendants.
Vyper got a great commercial that will stick with me for a good long wile. Thanks Vyper
Loved this episode as a 560sec owner and everything you said about it is true, I love this boat on wheels
Totally agree on gearing, did a 3.73 diff swap from 3.23 on my N52 powered E82 128i. Get to swap gears more often, just a joy partial or full send. Calculated ratios are in MPH with 7K max RPM are: 1st 32, 2nd 57, 3rd 84, 4th, 113, 5th 139, and 6th 164.
Oooh that sounds lovely
That’s on my list of todos for my 128i.
An intern at my workplace has a 560SEC on semislicks and it's the best car in our parking lot by far. Love those things
Derek now has 12 reasons to work harder 😉
I LOOOOOOOVE THE 850 CSI! I'm so happy for you Jason!
Damn, an 850CSi manual...and what an amazing color. Nice work, Jason! I can't wait to see it at Radwood this July! LMK if you need a driver to bring one of your other cars :) my GTI and Miata are significantly too old to take to the shows
As a 20 something year old in jealous, granted I have a Mazda 3 and E36. Not a Ferrari and lotus so I’m incredibly out of my league
You mean like the time last August I took my 4x4 crewcab 6.5' bed 2017 Ram 1500 3.92 Sport on the Tail of the Dragon at dawn and my buddy in his lowered/upgraded suspension 2015 GMC single cab couldn't lose me?? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Was absolutely HILARIOUS
200TW tires like the RT660 can be very pressure sensitive. They're really at home at an autocross where pressures can be reduced after each run, on the street that's pretty annoying to manage, but it will deliver grip for longer if you can reduce pressures into the optimal range for the car
Some of my best backroad bombs have been in my old Buicks, lol. This is that same energy just in real cars
To add to your shock on the mercedes 560 (my dream car btw, currently driving an ND miata.) i learned to drive in my mother's 94 740il. the composer of that car taught me so much about what makes a car good. I've taken it to the track once, before taking ownership on the ND, and had a riot getting lapped by miatas (the class I fell in due to power to weight). I will also add that something about those 90s german lux cars just get people out of your way, the number of times i am cruzing 80 mph in the left lane just for every car to pull over and let me by is magical.
Even with my E36 I’m not sure what it is, these things have street cred though for sure. People just get out of the way, as you said!
Thank you for making Monday mornings awesome!
Regarding Derek's GTI, I found that my Mk5 GTI is much more balanaced after having the 26mm front H&R ARB and 24mm rear ARB installed, Bilstein PSS coilovers and an MFactory limited slip differential installed. Yes, it also has SuperPro poly bushings in the lower control arms (Passat aluminum LCA's and spindles too), but the front anti-roll bar and diff really made a huge difference.
That said, it will still push at the extreme limit. It is a FWD car after all.
Jason made me go find my 1966 MGB manual. After ten minutes of research and a spreadsheet: 1st: 27mph, 2nd: 48.5 @ 6000 rpm, 3rd: 78, 4th: 107 (with a tailwind).
12.1 0-60
1800cc
Not a V12 though.
My RT615K also blued out like that from very similar driving. Good job getting that level of heat into them
Greetings from Bulgaria! Love the show, I have a w140 Lang as it was my dream, the next one is a SEC and indeed they made such solid cars back in Sacco’s time
Long live Monday morning presents
Viper chairs are the shit. Especially for detailers. Every detailer or anyone in a workshop needs one. Worth every cent.
Looks like beatrice needs more negative camber in the rear for those Falkens (and maybe go down a psi or two). It looks like you were lighting up the outside edge on your rally, which is why they went greasy on you. The spring rate change might be the cause of the extra loading on the outside of your rears as opposed to prior rallies too, if you had similar alignment specs.
You may want to double-check your toe as well; that's a shit-load of heat for road driving (you animal!).
This is 100% why I love hustling my Lincoln Town Car on a back road! It's got no body control and the chassis rigidity of overcooked spaghetti, but the suspension travel and semi-neutral handling balance tie the entire experience together. I've spent entire days at 10/10th and will never tire of the experience. Brakes, on the other hand, have something else to say...
Jason, do you plan on modifying the 850? Would be interesting to hear it with equal length headers
Interesting that Jason had a bad experience with the Falken RT660, they are the spec tire for many racing series including Gridlife. They are around the Bridgestone re71rs in greasyness from what I've seen on track. I also use them in my E30 🤔
Until falken was an official tire for formula drift rt660 and RT 660+ was basically an unbeatable tire among the competitors.
I am very often in the wrong car (minivan) for the "mission". I have a family & enjoy hiking, camping, mountain biking all of these activities include awesome roads on the way to the location :|
yeah...have another car, a proper driver's car; traversing mountains, going 30 on a natural trail down the hill, do some park laps, sure...but what's that got to do with driving, with real driving!?, "the right tool for the job"; it is so annoying seeing suvs and minivans trying to keep up a pace which I consider cruising while they are in the ditch or on the cross lane trying to maintain my speed on a curvy road; trust me when I say, that's not the proper way and you are endangering others with your lack of foresight.
edit. to put it in another way, would you take a road bike or your kid's supermarket bmx on a double black diamond?, if not, why are you doing the exact thing in the automotive world?
I love that they are discussing how gearing affects the driving experience. My AP2 Honda S2000 has to be shifted into 3rd to hit 60mph, even though it has a high redline.
I much prefer rowing through the gears bouncing off the rev limiter instead of hitting 60 mph slightly faster just to look good on paper. It’s about being able to have an experience anywhere you drive it without having to be on a race track.
This is one of those cars that I fell in-love with as a teenager mechanic. More experienced people (rightly) warned about the cost of ownership, but now that I am getting older I really would love seeing an e31 waiting for me in a parking lot. Lots of quirks with this car, hydraulic brake booster was one that scared me away for sure.
Set myself on fire was GIVING Lucille Bluth from Arrested Development 😂
Was listening to this in the background when the banana peel tires came up. I stopped wheatever i was doing rewinded and knew someone would run with that and i was not dissapointed.
Regarding FWD , with my old Saab , yes bigger bars and bottom X brace and top tower brace helped.
Every time you talk about one of your group rallies I feel like we’d LOVE watching it 👀
Even as a 4-hour, unedited video. I’d pay for that
The editor is killing it lately :D
Congratulations on the 850 CSI Jason, such a perfect spec of such an iconic BMW. Enjoy it brother
The Mayflower with wheels made me roll that was too much. Thank you editor
9:45 throwing shade at Doug
Saab 9-5 wagon owner who just bought a ct5 BW - totally agree about body roll giving limit feedback, really struggling to safely/confidently approach the BW’s turning limit.
The 9-5 is a ton of fun and giggles around an autocross, especially with 4 passengers- with PSAS4 tires it beats half the BRZ’s and v6 mustangs in the Detroit events I’ve attended
Can confirm that Goodyear Radial T/A's squeal like they're taking a plea deal. I recently bought an '84 Celica Supra and drove it to Alice's Restaurant near Half Moon Bay; fun roads but never clear enough to really hustle to the max, and it sounded like I was absolutely sending it when I wasn't. I'm trying to find some 16" wheels with the right offset so I can get some good tires that grip and don't make me sound insane
I always loved those 850's, I'd drool over them when ever I saw one, but these days you hear how scary they would be to own and what not and not thought about them lately... but they are so beautiful, still looks great to this day!
The first car I had and actually drove on the street to high school and back was a 1971 Renault R10 with the 2bbl 1289cc 4 cyl, 4 speed and 4 wheel disc brakes. A whopping 56 HP meant I could row through all 4 gears without breaking the law, almost - top speed was 65 mph downhill with a tailwind. It was as described - the wrong being so right for swifly traversing back roads, which there were on my commute back and forth to school. I learned a lot driving that car at its limits, which was safe and predictable enough to help me not end up off the road.
Did you love the short gearing on the 2002 Sentra SE-R Spec V 6 spd?
Those RT660's look like they didn't have enough camber and overheated the outside edge. Maybe a tire pressure adjustment is required too.
(I run them as well, no discoloration issues like that even with running Thill West)
LOL, I made the same comment around the same time too (and had a similar conclusion). 200tw autocross tires on a strut car without enough static camber LOVE to cook their outside edges when they get loaded up.
I run RE-71RSs on my 981 Boxster S, and had a similar heat mark on my fronts my first time out on them. Once I got my car aligned properly, they're now slightly hotter on the insides of the tire, but heating far more evenly across the tread block, and have no discoloration issues any longer.
Lots of people in autocross are using the RT660 tires, as they tend to be less expensive than the other current "super 200" tires options (RE-71RS, A052, CR-S). They do well, but de-laminate when they get hot-- even a little car like a Miata can overheat them if there isn't a long time between runs. Once the tread surface gets so hot as to be uncomfortable to hold one's hand on them, it is time to get out the tire sprayer and cool them down.
@ 59 min when you spoke about the S class coming up to someone in a sports car, and them not believing it keeps up......
I had a similar experience when I drove an e38 740i through a mountain pass, and my friend in an e46 M3 CSL on rubbish tyres, and he could barely keep up.
At the next stop he said he was thinking to himself all the time, what is he doing wrong in the CSL🤣
One of my most memorable drives
The shorty sporty was / is ace on the Twisties.
Jason is spot on! 🙂Bugger 0-100kph performance figures. Cars are fast enough already. I want to have *at least* one gear change before 100kph... and the third gear should follow very shortly (or earlier). This seems logical for creating a sports car for someone to use on the road legally and have fun
Those Falken 660s really benifit from a good initial heat cycle before hard use. Run hard (but not flatout) for about half hour to an hour then come home and either park the car on jackstands or remove the tires to cool naturally without weight on them for 24hours to allow the carbon bonds and such to do their thing. They still turn blue with use but usually not THAT blue lol. They are more of a autocross/time attack tire anyways. The 615 (or zigzags I like to call them) is a better tire for mountain blasting. Slightly less peak grip but better suited for long term hot use (like track days).
As an owner of an older AMG car that is stock, I will say you can definitely fine tune the handling with just tire pressure adjustments.
We own (or are owned by?) 8 different Sacco era Benzs.....you hit the nail on the heed with how much fun it is to keep up with or out do a sports car on a weekend ride!
0:30 "backroads asshole-ing" is what I will be calling it now 😁
been saving up for a euro 560. this was validating. can’t wait to drive one
Had lots of fun in my W126 with a 6 cyl engine and manual transmission in a autocross and in a trackday. The skinny factory 195 tires worked hard and the fronts are bald in the outer edges, but was worth every turn! There is a video in my profile. Slow but it made the fun last longer…🙃
Reminds me of when I took my i3 up to Newcombs ranch and shocked so many people for so many reasons
3:11
And there goes the Vyper sponsorship 😂😅😂😅
I find driving either my W124 E420 or the C126 560SEC most enjoyable on back twisty roads. Especially roads with camber changes and unevenness. The long travel suspension handles this type of road surface with ease. Don’t get me wrong drive too fast and they do become unsettled and sloppy but for 6/10th driving they are hard to beat and impress any passenger in tow.
I think Gordon Murray said in an interview that owners of the T.50 could choose their own gear ratios, but I don't know if he was referring to all gears or just the option for an overdrive 6th.
MORE E31 CONTENT YESSSSSSSSSSSSS. I cannot wait for the episode to come out.
Edit, also I'm planning to swap in a shorter diff to get euro gearing in my 850i/6. Will be fun.
My Diesel Work Truck.
2000 Ford F350 Sigle Cab, 8ft Flatbed, DRW
7.3 Powerstoke with Mild Mods
ZF-6 Manual
3.73 Rear Gear
ZF-6 Ratios
Low 5.79:1
First 3.30:1
Second 2.10:1
Third 1.31:1
Fourth 1.00:1
Overdrive 0.72:1
Reverse 5.23:1
Nothing Like running through all the gears, (Save for low unless I'm loaded down) just to keep up with traffic makes that slow ass tank so fun.
All this talk of good roads makes my Hoosier heart wilt. One day!
64 Giulia has 5.12 rear end....going into 3rd across an intersection
guys, I know precisely what you speak of with the old s class. my friend let me use her big 80s merc for house sitting in carmel valley, way out past the village. well I one day I had to drive into monterey and back four times...let's just say I ripped that car out and back very quickly! really a wonderful driver! great ep!
One of my suspicions is that the super-long gearing is also a "safety feature." The average driver isn't very good, and just because you can finance a Corvette doesn't mean you can drive a high-powered, rear wheel drive, fire-breathing monster. The OEMs neuter the cars so the idiots don't sue them when they lose control and spin into a ditch. They can also claim the EPA stuff and whatnot, but liability laws make a lot of decisions for corporations.
The Subaru XT test drive was hilarious to watch
Where is the HYPHEN?!
The 850s are some of my favorite cars. It's a good choice 👌
Bobby Brown wants his 560 SEC back, and he'll take every little step to get it
I was always blown away.. the faster I drove my '85 300SD, the better it got in the corners. It was weird lmao
My 04 WRX does 36mph in first, 59mph in 2nd. its not fast but it is quick, and super fun.
Do the mentioned cars rev higher also? Probably the ratios are short as well.
Anyway, I agree with Jason as usual.
Some 90s/00 sporty luxury barges and sporty suvs are really fun to drive at the limit if they're nicely maintaned. 00s 10k$ sporty suvs hunting on 40k Miatas, GRs and GTIs is peak automotive fun imo.
And then you can rally a V8 :p
The King of Sweden drove his 2020 M8 Competition past us this weekend. As his BMW is not a V12 and not a manual transmission, so I think Jason is probably having more fun than HRH Carl Gustaf. (At least until he drives his 599 GTB, but I'm not sure whether his has a manual or the paddle-shift transmission.)
I have to agree the wrong car on a fun road is 100 times more enjoyable than any purpose built sports car I used to have a hsv grange (imagine if the Pontiac gto was made into a s55 competitor) that was way more fun than a sports car on a tight road
Best example of wrong car but a lot of fun was taking a Scion Xb to a auto cross day. That car was a hell of a lot of fun and everyone smiled watching a middle aged fat guy hustling it around the cones!
Yeah, RE71RS>>RT660, but both are TT/AX tires. GY SC3 are great for an endurance tire that won't just fall at high temps, lasts longer and isn't as sensitive to heat cycles.
was something on the ground that caused the tires to lose grip?
1st: 93
2nd: 115
3rd: 128
4th: 155
1000cc sportbikes are a little dumb.
God, that Vyper sponsorship script reading made me cough uncontrollably with laughter. Seriously hope they appreciate it - and send you more scripts to butcher.
The T.50 is a different thing. It gives you the choice of 12000rpm in one gear, or 9000rpm in two for the same speed.
What really matters to physics is the torque that is applies to the ground via the tyres and demultiplication ratio (gear * final drive). Main reason why you want long first and 2nd gears in a large capacity engine is that due to demultiplication, too much torque wold go to the wheels otherwise causing unnecessary wheel spin. Given the amply wide and utterly smooth torque curve of a V12, in this setup, it's not about rowing through the gears (sadly) but rather having enough power at any times, gear agnostic almost - that is the magic of of a reasonable capacity V12.
My first (working) V12 car is a RPS13 shape Silvia with a 5.4L M73 blown on by a giant Borg Warner Turbo the size of Venus resulting in 700 whp and 900 wNm at 1 bar. Unopened engine, still fairly low power/cylinder, been on this same engine for the past 10 years or so before me (old drift build).
On 1240kg it feels effortless, she loves long final drives (2.35 - 2.81) but will soon get a custom shorter 3.45 215mm rear diff (E38 V12 rear subframe, S13 front) which should should be interesting :)
Thanks for the continued effort to bring us top quality content, much appreciated! ❤
Yep, love a lazy engine. Press pedal or twist wrist = acceleration in (practically) any gear
This reminds me...and I hope his mom never sees this, of the time I took my cousin's Tacoma around the tight, windy roads of North Carolina. You can hear the tires at the limit and all the passengers could do is laugh. At the end he goes "I didn't know my truck can do that"
Congrats on your E31 purchase. I owned a '91 850i and currently drive a '94 840ci. Start accumulating cosmetic spare parts - every one you can find...trust me.
Ah, better, enough about electric SUVs.
I LOVE to push my R129 - very unexpectedly fun car to drive fast, though the steering sucks.
I do want to say my 2006 Subaru Impreza WRX STi had pretty damned short gears. Forum is saying 56 mph max in 2nd gear.
05 Vibe GT has the same shift numbers as the 850csi... verrry interesting.
As for the 560SEC... Roadhouse.
Everyone is surprised by the 560SEC
The 850 CSI gotta be the most expensive car in Jason’s fleet. You can’t find one for less than six figures.
Question: what is the last "Good" Mercedes-Benz you think was made? What model best personifies everything wrong with them today? Would love to hear you both talk about it.
Always great listening to both you.
For me the W212, 204 and 221 were the last good omes and everything started going down the shitter twice actually. Once with the Daimler nonsense and once with the W205/213/222.
So basically, the late 2000s was a return to form and quickly given up in favour of building A classes with ipads attached to the dash
I huck my Mark8 around like that.... but, I have a fair amount of work done to the suspension....
I run those tires on my NC Miata as my track tires. I drive the crap out of the car and NEVER had the tires look anywhere near that bad.
I think “abroad” was the US for the 560sec
Try an Opel Monza, the most '80s luxo-coup of them all.
Having driven the W126, W140, W201, W202, W124, R120, R109 in various guises including Brabus, Koenig and AMG, from diesel's to four bangers to 5.6 V8 and 6.0 V12 (all European). VERY hard (because they weren't mine 😅). You can't break them, you can't overheat them and you will not find anything better to absolutely abuse the shit out of other than a Miata.
My "surprise" wrong car / right road journey was in my old company car, a 1997 P-reg (UK) Ford Escort Ghia 1.8... not a car with a great rep! Actually there were two journeys: chasing a friend in a 968CS on a Lincolnshire B-road, absolutely on the door handles, the very modest tyres were showing wear well onto the sidewalls... the other one was alone on the A701 in Scotland... in both cases I couldn't have driven the car any faster, it was 10/10ths all the way. Modest power, modest grip, but completely transparent and forgiving handling. Although that mk6 Escort was always slated in the context of the Focus, it actually wasn't that bad... far better than the mk5 which was a complete dog and probably tainted the mk6's rep (unfairly).
In your S2000 review, you said the AP2’s gears are too long, but it does 38mph in 1st and 58 in 2nd. I’m confused.
Probably too long for an engine which makes like 12Nm peak torque at 7 million rpm.
Compare that to a gigantic V12, which they were talking about here. Maybe that's the reason.
87 Plymouth Reliant (k-car) is dangerously fast at any speed. Ask me how I know.