If that was the source of revenue, it wouldn't be as captivating. His content is made for engagement because that was how he was making his money. That carrot on the stick made his channel the greatest infotainment rope-centric ever made. Whenever I've watched technical or informative videos from a product manufacturer, they are boring and subpar.
The idea of the Neox is to basically be a more perfect version of what the grigri is supposed to be. A belay device where only have to hold the tail loosely, which makes it a lot more pleasant to belay for a long time. An "assisted" breaking device does not mean a device that will catch you in case you aren't holding the brake strand, it just means a device that literally assists you in braking so you don't have to pull down on the rope with any force while holding the weight of a climber.
I think you're right - the Neox is what Petzl originally intended. In many ways it's the 'imperfect' operation of the Grigri that has caused it to be so useful in a variety of scenarios.
Aren't they all assisted then? Smart, Megajul, , Fish-something, ClickUp etc... With all of them you don't need power/grip strength to catch a fall - opposite to an ATC. The Grigri was rather special, because it often (not always, I know) catches without someone holding the rope, thereby providing a huge security factor when mistakes are made (e.g. belayer is pulled toward the wall, releasing both hands from the rope/device to protect himself from the impact). Now the benefit of the Neox is the smooth handling, but in comparison to the Grigri it lacks the additional security factor. It might even be a risk, when people expect it to work like a Grigri, because it just looks like it.
@@tobimathi2941 Hi tobi, while all of those devices are assisted, they are still different. All of the have different angles at which the break hand must hold the rope for the device to work. The Grigri for example is much more forgiving than a Smart. I suspect that the Neox will have a similar required angle as the Grigri because the locking mechanism is essentially the same.
@@johnny-wm4uoSmart 2.0 with Smarter catches falls hands free as well or even better, than GriGri. Jul2 requires polyamid cored ropes with diameter of 10 mm or slightly less, but in that case outperforms even Smart 2.0 + Smarter, which (just like grigri) always causes hard catches, while jul allows ~ 1 meter of rope to slip, gradially increasing the resistance. GriGri isn't the only one. Moreover I would say that it wasn't even the best anymore.
I literally saved a dude from his own belayer once because his belayer thought he could just pull the lever on the Grigri to gently lower the climber without holding the brake strand. Fortunately I was right there and quickly grabbed the brake strand, because the dude was basically in freefall. I think it wouldn't be a fair criticism of the Neox to say it's not good because you have to hold the brake strand, because the same is true of all belay devices, including the Grigri.
Thats really scary. Any time I go outdoors with someone new, I always make sure they know that lowering is very different from in the gym (where friction is added to the rope on the top rope anchors). I have literally seen people lowering in the gym as you described (no brake hand) and it is fine because of these "safety features" gyms use that just promote bad habits.
In the fire rescue world we call that sound, “the sound of progress”. Most of our devices make noise when hauling up through them. The sound of progress mean we are moving the load up.
In the world of professional stage hand rigging, there are newer chain hoist motors that are almost silent. None of the veteran riggers like them for exactly that reason :)
Try to simulate a slow fall. Like where there is a lot of rope drag and the forces are not high or fast - just let the dummy weight on the rope without a fall with some friction at the top, like a lead climber is "taking" at the top of the route. Seems like that it might not catch if it is slow enough and could let the rope pay out, and if there is no knot in the tail end, could pull through.
It reminds me of how the seat belt catch works but for a rope. I like that it would slowly slip the rope under high loading without desheathing and relieving the tension gracefully. Great tests. The way it works is really clever. Excellent video! 👍
Understanding that you’re not supposed to do any of these things, it would be interesting to see it tested as a top belay device, top rope solo device, and lead rope solo device.
The MAIN difference on the safety side compared to an ATC is imo not the break assist but the indifference of the Neox and all Grigri versions to where the brake strand is directed/orineted. You can be holding the brake strand completely parallel to the load strand and it will still brake, while with an ATC you're left with the Rope bent around a karabiner 180° and literally no baking effekt.
I think the clicking sound that you were hearing while doing your something-to-1 pull test and using it as an ascender is coming from the internal mechanism of the wheel. Inside the wheel, there's a mechanism where when the rope gets loaded, it pulls the wheel off-axis and engages the internal mechanism, which prevents the wheel from spinning, and allows the camming braking action to engage. which is why the wheel didn't spin freely when you were trying to pull rope through the device while it was under load. The wheel spins freely while the system is not loaded so that you can feed rope through smoothly, but once you load the system, the wheel locks up. If you watch the video labeled "NEOX 3D video" on Petzl's product page, you can see this mechanism at 0:45. I'm pretty sure that clicking sound was that tab on the insider of the wheel (seen at the top of the wheel at the video timestamp) running over the internal mechanism, and each time the wheel rotates the tab back to the top, it has to run over the locking mechanism again, making the repeated clicking noises.
@HowNOT2 on your store, under "progress capture devices" you have the neox listed as well as still having a TEST listing further down. Have a good one mate!
Petzl doesn't say you're not supposed to belay a climber from above with the Neox in their manual. It's an approved use for the device. I've really been enjoying belaying the follower with it because it's so smooth. I've found it grabs the rope not much differently than a grigri in this application with good brake hand technique.
As far as single pitch sport belaying the neox definitely has some upgrades compared to many other devices. As a piece of rope equipment on the other hand, not designed for top belay, doesn’t seem to be very good for progress capture, definitely wouldn’t use for TR solo or hauling. Overall it seems more novel than anything else. It would be rad to see a video where yall test it top belay direct off the anchor, hauling, route cleaning, effects of dust in the wheel, wet rope friction, rappelling accidents, and sucked into the first draw, or redirected through the anchor. Thanks for the great content guys!
I had mine out yesterday, feeds more smoothly than any belay device I've ever used and still locks up when you want it to, not sure what else you'd want in a device.
Don’t care about the price. It’s a piece of safety equipment you don’t boy every Tuesday so it has to be as perfect and durable as possible. If I have to pay a hundred bucks for that… I pay for it🤷♂️
i dont understand the glib remarks like "yeah i dont have to do that with an atc..." etc. -- when (i thoguht) the whole point of an ABD is to add a layer of protection if the belayer becomes incapacitated. if you trip, pass out, or a rock hits you while belaying with an atc, isnt the climber 100% fucked? whereas with an abd, theres a good chance it will catch? so whats with the glib attitude toward ABDs
He's done some other videos with abds and pretty much none of them lock up if you are not holding the brake strand when your climber falls. The grigri did the best but if the rope is already taught and doesn't jerk then it will just start slipping. You have to keep your hand on the brake strand. Period. ABD's encourage bad habits. All that said, I definitely agree with you. When I am climbing, I definitely prefer my belayer have an abd.
As someone said in other posts. Its a solution for a problem they created. I've been using the Mad Rock Lifeguard for 6 years exactly like an ATC. It catches when falling and gives slack when correctly fed. They tunned the cam size and spring tension correctly to do so. Great video, love the channel.
I would even go further. It is a solution for a problem that does not exist. Pushing down with the thumb is safe and I do not have any problem with the ropes used nowadays in sport climbing. Maybe with a 10.2 or 10.5 that was typical 10 years ago. But not with the 9.6-9.8 that are my workhorses nowadays. The much more interesting problem is how to create a device that catches a fall like an ATC but has the safety of a locking device. The Revo was a pretty good shot at this and I love it. It is so sad that most people just do not understand how the Revo is supposed to work and use it like a bidirectional Grigri, and at this role it is inferior
I have a GriGri and a Lifeguard. Probably a skill issue, but I just cannot feed slack smoothly without locking either one up. With that being the case, I prefer the GriGri over the Lifeguard because it has rolled lip to help you override the cam. The Lifeguard was designed to not need to be overridden, so it doesn't have anything to help you do so. That being said, since I suck at feeding slack with both devices, my go to belay devices are the Jul series. I use the Jul2 in the gym and the GigaJul outdoors. The think I like most about them is that the feeding position is same as the brake position. Keep your fingers wrapped around the rope and your thumb through the loop. When you need to feed slack, you just need to apply enough forward/upward pressure to keep the Jul from locking up, and then pull slack through with your left hand. There's no need for a shoveling motion and your brake hand doesn't need to shuffle or slide up or down the rope, meaning there's no risk of your climbing falling unexpectedly while you're trying to reset your brake hand to shovel more slack through. Your thumb in the loop and the other fingers wrapped around the rope keeps the brake strand in the locking position, directed downward, so if the climber falls unexpectedly, the rope is always in the right position for the braking mechanism to catch.
End of the video says its not supposed to be used to belay at an above anchor. Where are you getting that information from? Petzl's Website and all tech sheets I have seen all say that the NEOX can be used to belay up a second. I keep seeing people say it shouldn't be but I can't find anything to back this "rumor" up. Please any information would be nice And yes I know the risks of the cam getting blocked by rock when belaying from above but thats the same risk as with a grigri and nothing new so not what im asking about.
@@HowNOT2 ah ok thanks for your reply. I didn’t know this. I’m living in Germany and have bought my pinch about a week ago (could at some places be bought at the beginning of mai). I used it about three times till today and am really happy with it. I just don’t trust the lock that much and always put in another carabiner, like in the manual stated (the picture with the two locks). And I think the rope slides through there way smoother, than through the Grigri
CMC clutches spin in only one direction (in) its a ratchet mechanism that cant be released. To let rope out, its a friction slip kinda like how a grigri works.
I fully the standing from the beginning „why not use an ATC then“ but got hope once you got the droptower regarding further tests: I would like to see tests similar to hard is easy‘s tests with all the belay devices to get comparability
I won't win points for this comment: "the more you dumb down a system, the more dummies will use it". Or this one: "The more you hype an activity, the more hyper the practioners become". Knowing groovy "buzz phrazes" reading the latest (hyped) magazine (where every picture is a radically overhanging sport climb and not one picture of a 5.12+ / .13 glacial polish friction slab) is not real time experience. Call me a curmudgeon, but just last night I told a friend with 1 year in the gym as a sum total of his experience: " if you can't proficiently do a hip belay or build a 'biner brake' I would never partner with you on a grade V alpine route !". Videos like these are fabulous information and so valuable, just as is common sense, and experience developed under the tutelage of a highly experienced and safe mentor. I have seen far more (per capita) major injury or fatality reports in the past 10 years than 50 years ago in the days of swamis, hip delays and biner brake rapells. I am not suggesting that anybody climb in a 1/2 century old climbing style. Yet I am emphasizing that there is a good reason why 'self driving cars' have not become a noticeable % of those on the road. Be safe out there folks ! Knowing and using groovy terms like 'beta, whipper and redpoint' are never a replacement for a hyper-focus on proper use of 'guide hand/brake hand' or awareness of system geometry and redundancy. I would like to see the modern climbing community put a little more emphasis on 'pitches logged' and less on 'ratings ticked'. Good work on the testing, analysis and channel content you guys :) Be safe( 'r ) y'all, don't be lulled into thinking that modern disk brakes and anti lock braking systems make driving down the freeway in bumper to bumper traffic at 85mph is 'safe' :)
SAR volunteer here looking for test data - at 8:16 was the Neox slipping at 4.4KN consistently while brake strand was held? And the peak force of 8.9KN is what it started slipping at, or am I reading it wrong? Also, what was it slipping at without the brake strand being held?
Whenever there's a Tube style belay device vs. Assisted braking belay device discussion, one of the main points in favor of the assisted braking devices seems to be that if the belayer gets hit by a rock or otherwise incapacitated and looses grip of the brake strand of the rope then an assisted braking device will save the climber in case of a fall. But that isn't really what those devices are meant to do now is it?
Same, I stopped climbing at gyms when they told me they teach people to stay in pistol grip position the whole time. It was also a gym that had someone fall because the employees can't be scrutinizing every climber up close all the time. The neox will hopefully kill the pistol grip grigri technique. The people that approved the pistol grip technique should also un-approve it, IMO, because they're the reason people feel justified using it.
@@timreyes2179 So far I've been using the Neox for 4 months and LOVE IT. So easy to use, no cam override ever. Never short rope anyone either. Just have to pay attention to the climber & get ahead of it. You can feed slack SO fast with the Neox. It's surreal & fun.
@RajGiandeep that's good to hear, I just found out about it because a friend won one in a raffle last night. It strengthens my respect for Petzl. It's a very specific fix to a very specific problem that lots of people won't even acknowledge due to pride. I hope gyms replace their grigris with the neox quickly and return to the safer technique being the standard.
People shouldn't be counting on a grigri to lock. Belaying on them especially with a sport 9.7mm you must have a hand on and they feed so easy this free spinning wheel seems redundant. Jumping on them we always use a basic 'slip knot' stopper below the grigri too.
I feel like they really missed an opportunity to make the wheel catch based on speed like the revo (and do so 100% of the time) but have the instant assist of the grigri and others. Not sure if that's even feasible to engineer? Also would love to see a review of the Vergo. I've found that as long as you avoid holding the device such that the straightest path lines up with the direction of pull from the climber, and avoid pulling the device in towards your body, it catches 100% of the time even with no brake hand, but I'd love to see more tests.
I was hoping for a ratchet pulley with a release lever, like a ratcheting GriGri. It looks like it locks up under load, so it doesn't work for a releaseable progress capture or handled descender.
I was struggling to find what this could be really good at, but I think i've found it!! Potential lead rope solo device??? Gri gri was good at this, but pulling slack was annoying. Does this device fix that and maintain the gri gri safety of lead rope solo?
@ 8:20 - i feel like this is the perfect result. The device is allowing the rope to feed SLOWLY, right at the edge of the load which would strip the sheath off the rope. I'm not a climber, but this seems like the best-case scenario for a device like this: you get unmistakable feedback letting you know you're overloading the device, but you do NOT get a sudden catastrophic failure that leaves you tryna figure out how to cast 'feather fall' before you hit the ground. Is my assessment here wrong? Like i said, not a climber, but this looks like a failure mode i would want on a safety-critical tool.
To me, this is the perfect device. People have been way too lazy with their belaying form thinking a Grigri will somehow always know when you want it to lock up. Now we have a device that will lock as long as you apply almost any pressure to the brake strand, but likely won’t lock unless you do so? Perfect
It would be great to see how it preforms in belay from above/lowering from above. Also, would this device unblock if weighted with a fireman's belay during rappel, or during single strand ascension to assist rappeller?
The clicking sound will take some time to accept as normal. Only other aspect I’m not overly thrilled with is the occasional speed change while lowering (still can’t determine what causes the wheel to spin faster).
I would love to see 2 things for the testing please: 1. how would it function for solo climbing? just like a grigri or it would be sketchy? 2. on “ hard is easy” I am sure you know the channel, he had a video explaining exactly why grigri might slip, i would love to see the same situation with the neox. Thanks ua-cam.com/video/wz1PTbjQ3pc/v-deo.htmlsi=BVtmtK8rNuGqYixO
I've only ever had problems paying out slack on a gri-gri when the rope was super old and furry. I literally hated the way you are supposed to give out slack so badly that I just leant to do the exact opposite of when you pull in slack - top hand down while pulling rope through with the dead hand and nuckles brushing technique - Basically bring the dead hand up next to the climbers rope and feed the rope baxk through the gri-gri at the same rate as you're pulling the rope out. It's quite finicky to learn, but it is possible...... I also spent about a MILLION hours belaying kids on climbing walls and high rope course's so I had plenty of time to practice 😂
How smooth does it lower with skinny ropes 9.5 and lower? My biggest complaint with the Grigri is that although it feeds really smooth with skinny ropes, lowering with heavier climbers is either painfully slow or a free fall. I have to wear belay gloves to lower at a good speed.
if anything it's worse at solo top rope because it might not catch, with a grigri the weight of the rope is enough to automatically pull the slack through and it'll still catch when you fall on it
@@chyza2012 in the meantime it has become clear the Neox is absolutely no good for rope solo. With regard to the grigri, it is very good for lead rope solo in upside down position. For toprope solo it works but is one of the least good choices. It will run a bit, but only a bit if the weight of the rope is enough and the rope is new. In practice you'll have to pull the rope through by hand all the time to prevent slack. And you'll feel the weight of the rope pull on you the entire climb. I've done plenty of hours on a grigri as a route setter. Not recommended.
Reallly? You keep us waiting for weeks (following the mail it could be years) on the Pinch video but the Neox one got a record time? Greetings from Germany ;)
Previous comment about the pinch: "Once they arrive I will. They said I couldn’t break the one I have so I don’t know how to make a video without doing so . ETA August"
How to die when you self-belay? Maybe you are rigging something up and want to be kind of hands free. That you tie a stopper knot here and there but really you want to just solo a route. The gri gri kind of works for this application. Does this totally fail?
It definitely has differences from the clutch as the clutch only freely spins for progress capture and will not spin the other direction for decent. Sadly petzl is still not creating competition for the clutch yet
Aside. If you use an ATC with an integrated pulley carabiner like the Edelrid Axiom, would the throw friction be less? I presume that using an ATC with an integrated pulley carabiner is stupid for reasons... what are those reasons? @hownot2
Hey Guys, i am a professional industrial climber from Munich and like your channel alot 👍 I‘am pretty interested in the winch you used to haul up the „climber“ 😃 could you tell me the Name/type/Brand please? thanks and keep ripping 👍 Rallo
And Jesus said to the crowd, "Have not each of us tied a figure 8 retrace with crossing strands that had to be fixed? Let he who is without fault throw the first nut."
I really would like to know about given slack when climber is clipping, if method differs from original grigri, where you can press with your thumb to give quick slack.
The point of this redesign is to make the thumb press/ pistol grip method for paying slack obsolete. It was a HUGE safety issue because of how much rope can run through a grigri with your hand in that position. This device will probably replace grigris as gym equipment before long.
Ryan, what are your thoughts when trying to ascend a rope with this device? I see you didn't like the clicking in the device. It seemed really inefficient to me because of the clicking and I cant imaging the device likes that. Thoughts?
I said to someone the other day that the Neox is a $150 fix for belayers who are chronic short ropers. Which is honestly a you problem and not Grigri problem
Thanks for the quickie. 😂 I was looking forward to your review and optimistic that this would be good for lead-roped-solo. Looks like it might be much if an improvement over a grigri.
Why do people say you need to hold the grigri to pay out slack. That’s an option but you really don’t need to. I don’t know maybe with some ropes it’s difficult but I do not have difficulty just paying attention to my climber and paying out slack by just feeding it through slow enough just before my climber needs it. Only when I get behind the climber and they need slack fast will I put my thumb on it and whip out some slack.
@jog-h7139 it works pretty exactly the same for belaying. The rig is just made for thicker ropes right, 11mm static ropes? And has the locking option to take your hand off the brake strand but you wouldn't use that feature while belaying, so you'd have to keep your hand on the brake strand. I guess you could lock it while the climber wasn't moving though.
Rope will run through the gri-gri with your hand guiding the rope into the device right there. That's a huge safety issue with the technique people are commonly taught with the grigri. This device makes the proper, safer rope technique easier and for a company that makes safety equipment it doesn't surprise me at all that they re-engineered it.
@@timreyes2179 only if you leave your thumb there. The problem with this device is the rope runs through the device WITHOUT your thumb on it. It’s less safe.
@theopinson3851 This video shows that if you aren't actively holding onto the rope, and your hand is guiding the rope into the device at this low friction angle, which is where the "pistol grip" keeps the rope, it will completely bypass the cam even if you're not blocking the cam. Most whippers are not going to 8 kN and they certainly don't maintain forces above 8 kN as the climber slows. I bet in the time a climber falls before a loose brake hand on a grigri engages a climber will fall farther than a climber would in a crazy above 8 kN fall in the time it takes the device to slow them to the point where the neox stops slipping. ua-cam.com/users/shorts6ev960Q_v8w?si=IWqE3kWZZB-jGjEh
petzl missed a trick by not using the tagline: "Neox: It's _wheely_ good"
Petzl should be paying you for this. I have more confidence in this device than when I saw their marketing video
If that was the source of revenue, it wouldn't be as captivating. His content is made for engagement because that was how he was making his money. That carrot on the stick made his channel the greatest infotainment rope-centric ever made.
Whenever I've watched technical or informative videos from a product manufacturer, they are boring and subpar.
The idea of the Neox is to basically be a more perfect version of what the grigri is supposed to be. A belay device where only have to hold the tail loosely, which makes it a lot more pleasant to belay for a long time. An "assisted" breaking device does not mean a device that will catch you in case you aren't holding the brake strand, it just means a device that literally assists you in braking so you don't have to pull down on the rope with any force while holding the weight of a climber.
I think you're right - the Neox is what Petzl originally intended. In many ways it's the 'imperfect' operation of the Grigri that has caused it to be so useful in a variety of scenarios.
Aren't they all assisted then? Smart, Megajul, , Fish-something, ClickUp etc... With all of them you don't need power/grip strength to catch a fall - opposite to an ATC. The Grigri was rather special, because it often (not always, I know) catches without someone holding the rope, thereby providing a huge security factor when mistakes are made (e.g. belayer is pulled toward the wall, releasing both hands from the rope/device to protect himself from the impact).
Now the benefit of the Neox is the smooth handling, but in comparison to the Grigri it lacks the additional security factor. It might even be a risk, when people expect it to work like a Grigri, because it just looks like it.
@@tobimathi2941Yes, all of those belay devices are considered to be assisted. Devices like the Megajul are often called "passive assisted".
@@tobimathi2941 Hi tobi, while all of those devices are assisted, they are still different. All of the have different angles at which the break hand must hold the rope for the device to work. The Grigri for example is much more forgiving than a Smart. I suspect that the Neox will have a similar required angle as the Grigri because the locking mechanism is essentially the same.
@@johnny-wm4uoSmart 2.0 with Smarter catches falls hands free as well or even better, than GriGri.
Jul2 requires polyamid cored ropes with diameter of 10 mm or slightly less, but in that case outperforms even Smart 2.0 + Smarter, which (just like grigri) always causes hard catches, while jul allows ~ 1 meter of rope to slip, gradially increasing the resistance.
GriGri isn't the only one. Moreover I would say that it wasn't even the best anymore.
I literally saved a dude from his own belayer once because his belayer thought he could just pull the lever on the Grigri to gently lower the climber without holding the brake strand. Fortunately I was right there and quickly grabbed the brake strand, because the dude was basically in freefall. I think it wouldn't be a fair criticism of the Neox to say it's not good because you have to hold the brake strand, because the same is true of all belay devices, including the Grigri.
Thats really scary. Any time I go outdoors with someone new, I always make sure they know that lowering is very different from in the gym (where friction is added to the rope on the top rope anchors). I have literally seen people lowering in the gym as you described (no brake hand) and it is fine because of these "safety features" gyms use that just promote bad habits.
@@Erik-vr2uu This is part of why I'm happy my usual gym doesn't have the rope wrapped around the anchor 2-3 times as a "safety measure".
@@Trackpad_User It also wears out the rope because there is nylon on nylon contact as the coils of rope rub against each other.
In the fire rescue world we call that sound, “the sound of progress”. Most of our devices make noise when hauling up through them. The sound of progress mean we are moving the load up.
In the world of professional stage hand rigging, there are newer chain hoist motors that are almost silent. None of the veteran riggers like them for exactly that reason :)
If I were using a Clutch and it didn't make a ratchet sound, I'd be concerned too.
Try to simulate a slow fall. Like where there is a lot of rope drag and the forces are not high or fast - just let the dummy weight on the rope without a fall with some friction at the top, like a lead climber is "taking" at the top of the route. Seems like that it might not catch if it is slow enough and could let the rope pay out, and if there is no knot in the tail end, could pull through.
Or wild country revos nemesis: tumbling down a slab!
It seams like it needs a certain amount of force to engage
As I understand it, the engagement doesn’t depend on the speed of the fall, but the weight felt by the brake strand.
But you have your hand on the brake tail. Its not an automatic belay device. Not even a Trueblue will do that. To stop that you need a knot.
@@philleng480The REVO automatically engages when the speed of the fall hits 4 m/s even without a hand on the brake strand
"I put it in like a USB stick, 3 times to make sure it's right" why is it always like that 😂😂😂
It reminds me of how the seat belt catch works but for a rope. I like that it would slowly slip the rope under high loading without desheathing and relieving the tension gracefully. Great tests. The way it works is really clever. Excellent video! 👍
Understanding that you’re not supposed to do any of these things, it would be interesting to see it tested as a top belay device, top rope solo device, and lead rope solo device.
So grigri has the ability to top belay over this?
@@openit125 they said in this video that they’d be scared to top belay with it
@@openit125 early reviews seem to indicate so, but there is a video of some guy doing it and also rappelling.
I read the Petzl manual for this. Belaying from above is totally kosher according to the manufacturer!
Ive tried it for rope solo and the fact that you need to hold on to the brake strand makes it a no-go for this purpose 😢
The MAIN difference on the safety side compared to an ATC is imo not the break assist but the indifference of the Neox and all Grigri versions to where the brake strand is directed/orineted.
You can be holding the brake strand completely parallel to the load strand and it will still brake, while with an ATC you're left with the Rope bent around a karabiner 180° and literally no baking effekt.
I think the clicking sound that you were hearing while doing your something-to-1 pull test and using it as an ascender is coming from the internal mechanism of the wheel. Inside the wheel, there's a mechanism where when the rope gets loaded, it pulls the wheel off-axis and engages the internal mechanism, which prevents the wheel from spinning, and allows the camming braking action to engage. which is why the wheel didn't spin freely when you were trying to pull rope through the device while it was under load. The wheel spins freely while the system is not loaded so that you can feed rope through smoothly, but once you load the system, the wheel locks up.
If you watch the video labeled "NEOX 3D video" on Petzl's product page, you can see this mechanism at 0:45. I'm pretty sure that clicking sound was that tab on the insider of the wheel (seen at the top of the wheel at the video timestamp) running over the internal mechanism, and each time the wheel rotates the tab back to the top, it has to run over the locking mechanism again, making the repeated clicking noises.
@HowNOT2 on your store, under "progress capture devices" you have the neox listed as well as still having a TEST listing further down. Have a good one mate!
Petzl doesn't say you're not supposed to belay a climber from above with the Neox in their manual. It's an approved use for the device. I've really been enjoying belaying the follower with it because it's so smooth. I've found it grabs the rope not much differently than a grigri in this application with good brake hand technique.
I know the lead rope solo community is excited at this things potential. I'd love to see some lrs fall testing and inverted fall testing
Defo. Seems tough, pays out easily, locks up without destroying itself or rope. All good so far. Upside down falls, let's see.
it be interesting to do this with the Elderids pinch as well
And also checking that the eject button is bulletproof. because using the safety carabiner defeats the purpose
+1 on this idea. That button on the pinch has me slightly nervous
+1 on this too
As far as single pitch sport belaying the neox definitely has some upgrades compared to many other devices. As a piece of rope equipment on the other hand, not designed for top belay, doesn’t seem to be very good for progress capture, definitely wouldn’t use for TR solo or hauling. Overall it seems more novel than anything else. It would be rad to see a video where yall test it top belay direct off the anchor, hauling, route cleaning, effects of dust in the wheel, wet rope friction, rappelling accidents, and sucked into the first draw, or redirected through the anchor. Thanks for the great content guys!
I had mine out yesterday, feeds more smoothly than any belay device I've ever used and still locks up when you want it to, not sure what else you'd want in a device.
lower weight, size, prize
Don’t care about the price. It’s a piece of safety equipment you don’t boy every Tuesday so it has to be as perfect and durable as possible. If I have to pay a hundred bucks for that… I pay for it🤷♂️
@@Romaing7 shops love that mindset. It´s for safety, and the more expensive, the more safe.
well socialised in cpaitalism
i dont understand the glib remarks like "yeah i dont have to do that with an atc..." etc. -- when (i thoguht) the whole point of an ABD is to add a layer of protection if the belayer becomes incapacitated. if you trip, pass out, or a rock hits you while belaying with an atc, isnt the climber 100% fucked? whereas with an abd, theres a good chance it will catch? so whats with the glib attitude toward ABDs
He's done some other videos with abds and pretty much none of them lock up if you are not holding the brake strand when your climber falls. The grigri did the best but if the rope is already taught and doesn't jerk then it will just start slipping. You have to keep your hand on the brake strand. Period. ABD's encourage bad habits.
All that said, I definitely agree with you. When I am climbing, I definitely prefer my belayer have an abd.
1:19 is an example seen a lot in the US of how not to give slack with a Gri-gri.
As someone said in other posts. Its a solution for a problem they created.
I've been using the Mad Rock Lifeguard for 6 years exactly like an ATC. It catches when falling and gives slack when correctly fed. They tunned the cam size and spring tension correctly to do so.
Great video, love the channel.
I would even go further. It is a solution for a problem that does not exist. Pushing down with the thumb is safe and I do not have any problem with the ropes used nowadays in sport climbing. Maybe with a 10.2 or 10.5 that was typical 10 years ago. But not with the 9.6-9.8 that are my workhorses nowadays.
The much more interesting problem is how to create a device that catches a fall like an ATC but has the safety of a locking device. The Revo was a pretty good shot at this and I love it. It is so sad that most people just do not understand how the Revo is supposed to work and use it like a bidirectional Grigri, and at this role it is inferior
@@foobar9220 I personally still feel there's too much power in pushing down with the thumb and index finger under the lip
@@foobar9220my favorite combo of devices are the revo and grigri. They compliment each other perfectly.
The Revo is so under rated.
I have a GriGri and a Lifeguard. Probably a skill issue, but I just cannot feed slack smoothly without locking either one up. With that being the case, I prefer the GriGri over the Lifeguard because it has rolled lip to help you override the cam. The Lifeguard was designed to not need to be overridden, so it doesn't have anything to help you do so.
That being said, since I suck at feeding slack with both devices, my go to belay devices are the Jul series. I use the Jul2 in the gym and the GigaJul outdoors. The think I like most about them is that the feeding position is same as the brake position. Keep your fingers wrapped around the rope and your thumb through the loop. When you need to feed slack, you just need to apply enough forward/upward pressure to keep the Jul from locking up, and then pull slack through with your left hand. There's no need for a shoveling motion and your brake hand doesn't need to shuffle or slide up or down the rope, meaning there's no risk of your climbing falling unexpectedly while you're trying to reset your brake hand to shovel more slack through. Your thumb in the loop and the other fingers wrapped around the rope keeps the brake strand in the locking position, directed downward, so if the climber falls unexpectedly, the rope is always in the right position for the braking mechanism to catch.
End of the video says its not supposed to be used to belay at an above anchor. Where are you getting that information from? Petzl's Website and all tech sheets I have seen all say that the NEOX can be used to belay up a second. I keep seeing people say it shouldn't be but I can't find anything to back this "rumor" up. Please any information would be nice
And yes I know the risks of the cam getting blocked by rock when belaying from above but thats the same risk as with a grigri and nothing new so not what im asking about.
Very curious about testing for that scenario
me too
I would really look forward, for you to test the edelrid pinch
Once they arrive I will. They said I couldn’t break the one I have so I don’t know how to make a video without doing so 😂. ETA August
@@HowNOT2 ah ok thanks for your reply. I didn’t know this. I’m living in Germany and have bought my pinch about a week ago (could at some places be bought at the beginning of mai).
I used it about three times till today and am really happy with it. I just don’t trust the lock that much and always put in another carabiner, like in the manual stated (the picture with the two locks).
And I think the rope slides through there way smoother, than through the Grigri
I've never once held a grigri open to get slack out, you feed the loose end into it while pulling out the climber side.
CMC clutches spin in only one direction (in) its a ratchet mechanism that cant be released. To let rope out, its a friction slip kinda like how a grigri works.
I fully the standing from the beginning „why not use an ATC then“ but got hope once you got the droptower regarding further tests:
I would like to see tests similar to hard is easy‘s tests with all the belay devices to get comparability
I won't win points for this comment: "the more you dumb down a system, the more dummies will use it". Or this one: "The more you hype an activity, the more hyper the practioners become". Knowing groovy "buzz phrazes" reading the latest (hyped) magazine (where every picture is a radically overhanging sport climb and not one picture of a 5.12+ / .13 glacial polish friction slab) is not real time experience. Call me a curmudgeon, but just last night I told a friend with 1 year in the gym as a sum total of his experience: " if you can't proficiently do a hip belay or build a 'biner brake' I would never partner with you on a grade V alpine route !". Videos like these are fabulous information and so valuable, just as is common sense, and experience developed under the tutelage of a highly experienced and safe mentor. I have seen far more (per capita) major injury or fatality reports in the past 10 years than 50 years ago in the days of swamis, hip delays and biner brake rapells. I am not suggesting that anybody climb in a 1/2 century old climbing style. Yet I am emphasizing that there is a good reason why 'self driving cars' have not become a noticeable % of those on the road. Be safe out there folks ! Knowing and using groovy terms like 'beta, whipper and redpoint' are never a replacement for a hyper-focus on proper use of 'guide hand/brake hand' or awareness of system geometry and redundancy. I would like to see the modern climbing community put a little more emphasis on 'pitches logged' and less on 'ratings ticked'. Good work on the testing, analysis and channel content you guys :) Be safe( 'r ) y'all, don't be lulled into thinking that modern disk brakes and anti lock braking systems make driving down the freeway in bumper to bumper traffic at 85mph is 'safe' :)
SAR volunteer here looking for test data - at 8:16 was the Neox slipping at 4.4KN consistently while brake strand was held? And the peak force of 8.9KN is what it started slipping at, or am I reading it wrong? Also, what was it slipping at without the brake strand being held?
are you guys planning on reviewing the Edelrid Pinch?
Please test a wild country revo!!
My favorite combo with a grigri for belay devices at any crag
I’d love to see what it does in a LRS configuration.
They are super smooth to use. Like paying out on ice!
Of course its a 1 trick pony and for the price i would rather imcrease versitility
Whenever there's a Tube style belay device vs. Assisted braking belay device discussion, one of the main points in favor of the assisted braking devices seems to be that if the belayer gets hit by a rock or otherwise incapacitated and looses grip of the brake strand of the rope then an assisted braking device will save the climber in case of a fall. But that isn't really what those devices are meant to do now is it?
Looks good to me. I'm looking forward to this because I prefer not to override the cam.
Same, I stopped climbing at gyms when they told me they teach people to stay in pistol grip position the whole time. It was also a gym that had someone fall because the employees can't be scrutinizing every climber up close all the time. The neox will hopefully kill the pistol grip grigri technique. The people that approved the pistol grip technique should also un-approve it, IMO, because they're the reason people feel justified using it.
@@timreyes2179 So far I've been using the Neox for 4 months and LOVE IT. So easy to use, no cam override ever. Never short rope anyone either. Just have to pay attention to the climber & get ahead of it. You can feed slack SO fast with the Neox. It's surreal & fun.
@RajGiandeep that's good to hear, I just found out about it because a friend won one in a raffle last night. It strengthens my respect for Petzl. It's a very specific fix to a very specific problem that lots of people won't even acknowledge due to pride. I hope gyms replace their grigris with the neox quickly and return to the safer technique being the standard.
@@timreyes2179 I did a review about it on my channel & explain the clicking noise.
Imma buy one anyways. Its shiny climbing gear...
This is the way...
I still love my Edelrid Mega Jul and see no need to switch.
The clutch is one free spinning as your pulling the load in but you must use the brake handle to pay rope out
People shouldn't be counting on a grigri to lock.
Belaying on them especially with a sport 9.7mm you must have a hand on and they feed so easy this free spinning wheel seems redundant.
Jumping on them we always use a basic 'slip knot' stopper below the grigri too.
I feel like they really missed an opportunity to make the wheel catch based on speed like the revo (and do so 100% of the time) but have the instant assist of the grigri and others. Not sure if that's even feasible to engineer? Also would love to see a review of the Vergo. I've found that as long as you avoid holding the device such that the straightest path lines up with the direction of pull from the climber, and avoid pulling the device in towards your body, it catches 100% of the time even with no brake hand, but I'd love to see more tests.
I was hoping for a ratchet pulley with a release lever, like a ratcheting GriGri. It looks like it locks up under load, so it doesn't work for a releaseable progress capture or handled descender.
Can you ignored the rule book it comes with and try it fun stuff? Top belay, LRS, TRS, etc.
I was struggling to find what this could be really good at, but I think i've found it!! Potential lead rope solo device??? Gri gri was good at this, but pulling slack was annoying. Does this device fix that and maintain the gri gri safety of lead rope solo?
@ 8:20 - i feel like this is the perfect result. The device is allowing the rope to feed SLOWLY, right at the edge of the load which would strip the sheath off the rope.
I'm not a climber, but this seems like the best-case scenario for a device like this: you get unmistakable feedback letting you know you're overloading the device, but you do NOT get a sudden catastrophic failure that leaves you tryna figure out how to cast 'feather fall' before you hit the ground.
Is my assessment here wrong? Like i said, not a climber, but this looks like a failure mode i would want on a safety-critical tool.
what happened to the droptower?
To me, this is the perfect device. People have been way too lazy with their belaying form thinking a Grigri will somehow always know when you want it to lock up. Now we have a device that will lock as long as you apply almost any pressure to the brake strand, but likely won’t lock unless you do so? Perfect
The clicking is the sound of progress.
It would be great to see how it preforms in belay from above/lowering from above. Also, would this device unblock if weighted with a fireman's belay during rappel, or during single strand ascension to assist rappeller?
I'm thinking how dust and dirt will affect it. Seems dropping it in some dirt would lock it up
The clicking sound will take some time to accept as normal. Only other aspect I’m not overly thrilled with is the occasional speed change while lowering (still can’t determine what causes the wheel to spin faster).
Another great video.
Are y'all looking into selling/testing Edelrid Pinch? Been curious about getting one but want to see reviews on it first.
I would love to see 2 things for the testing please:
1. how would it function for solo climbing? just like a grigri or it would be sketchy?
2. on “ hard is easy” I am sure you know the channel, he had a video explaining exactly why grigri might slip, i would love to see the same situation with the neox. Thanks
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Slipping is better than snapping IMO. I keep hoping one of these will function like a multiscender for way cheaper. (Zigzag, akimbo, etc)
I've only ever had problems paying out slack on a gri-gri when the rope was super old and furry. I literally hated the way you are supposed to give out slack so badly that I just leant to do the exact opposite of when you pull in slack - top hand down while pulling rope through with the dead hand and nuckles brushing technique - Basically bring the dead hand up next to the climbers rope and feed the rope baxk through the gri-gri at the same rate as you're pulling the rope out. It's quite finicky to learn, but it is possible...... I also spent about a MILLION hours belaying kids on climbing walls and high rope course's so I had plenty of time to practice 😂
How smooth does it lower with skinny ropes 9.5 and lower? My biggest complaint with the Grigri is that although it feeds really smooth with skinny ropes, lowering with heavier climbers is either painfully slow or a free fall. I have to wear belay gloves to lower at a good speed.
I think you could top belay with it, you'd just need to add a redirection biner to the system
"OMG the judgement I'm gonna get for my eight" I feel so called out. 😂
Be interested to see if Ohm influences it.
That is a really good thought
Great idea.
I ordered a neox, and would love to see whipper videos, how can i get access?
We are sending the emails out today after we pack up today’s orders.
Top Rope Solo climbers' ears just perked up
Maybe the lead rope soloists too. (Unfortunately for Petzl I'm quite content with the Taz Lov already)
if anything it's worse at solo top rope because it might not catch, with a grigri the weight of the rope is enough to automatically pull the slack through and it'll still catch when you fall on it
@@chyza2012 have you tried? In this clip of Hownotto it seems that it mostly will catch just as the grigri. And it might run up the rope a bit better.
@@chyza2012 also I used the grigri a lot while routesetting and no it doesn't automatically run up the rope.
@@chyza2012 in the meantime it has become clear the Neox is absolutely no good for rope solo. With regard to the grigri, it is very good for lead rope solo in upside down position. For toprope solo it works but is one of the least good choices. It will run a bit, but only a bit if the weight of the rope is enough and the rope is new. In practice you'll have to pull the rope through by hand all the time to prevent slack. And you'll feel the weight of the rope pull on you the entire climb. I've done plenty of hours on a grigri as a route setter. Not recommended.
2:45 what is that device? A "Cabdo"?
Would like to see a lead rope solo simulation on this device!
Will work if you use a friction inducing device inline, like the micro traxion.
@@testboga5991did people try already?
Reallly? You keep us waiting for weeks (following the mail it could be years) on the Pinch video but the Neox one got a record time? Greetings from Germany ;)
Previous comment about the pinch: "Once they arrive I will. They said I couldn’t break the one I have so I don’t know how to make a video without doing so . ETA August"
Ha, had not seen that one
The title had me side-eyed 🤨 but when you showed it was safe when used correctly I was fine 😂
Clickbait title
How to die when you self-belay? Maybe you are rigging something up and want to be kind of hands free. That you tie a stopper knot here and there but really you want to just solo a route. The gri gri kind of works for this application. Does this totally fail?
I wouldn't use this for top rope solo but I might give it a try... Though the trust I have with my Camp lift and Micro Traxion combo is bomber!
It won't work, you NEED to hold onto the brake strand or it will not capture your progress. (I've tried it)
100% same with the lift + trax though 🤟🤟 it even works with ice climbing too.
It definitely has differences from the clutch as the clutch only freely spins for progress capture and will not spin the other direction for decent. Sadly petzl is still not creating competition for the clutch yet
This is why I support you! I wanna see the drop tests lol
not necessary the break test for these kinda things, specifically the 'normal' functioning test.... tho the break test is cool lol
Aside. If you use an ATC with an integrated pulley carabiner like the Edelrid Axiom, would the throw friction be less? I presume that using an ATC with an integrated pulley carabiner is stupid for reasons... what are those reasons? @hownot2
Hey Guys,
i am a professional industrial climber from Munich and like your channel alot 👍
I‘am pretty interested in the winch you used to haul up the „climber“ 😃
could you tell me the Name/type/Brand please?
thanks and keep ripping 👍
Rallo
Can you do an MBS test, and show us what happens if you did belay from the top?
And Jesus said to the crowd, "Have not each of us tied a figure 8 retrace with crossing strands that had to be fixed? Let he who is without fault throw the first nut."
I could definitely see this being useful in the gym with my fat beat up gym rope.
It was cool to see you testing this on my very first time climbing outside!
It seems like this is one of those solutions in search of a problem....
my question is does it catch like a grigri? worse?
Any chance making testing with using it in 3:1 or 5:1 or other lifting rescue rigging?
I really would like to know about given slack when climber is clipping, if method differs from original grigri, where you can press with your thumb to give quick slack.
The point of this redesign is to make the thumb press/ pistol grip method for paying slack obsolete. It was a HUGE safety issue because of how much rope can run through a grigri with your hand in that position. This device will probably replace grigris as gym equipment before long.
Still using my trango cinch. Never gonna change if I can.
Rope solo , micro trax, top belay
Ryan, what are your thoughts when trying to ascend a rope with this device? I see you didn't like the clicking in the device. It seemed really inefficient to me because of the clicking and I cant imaging the device likes that. Thoughts?
Gotta be careful the bird poop affects the weight of the leader, need to reweigh it lol. 😂
I said to someone the other day that the Neox is a $150 fix for belayers who are chronic short ropers. Which is honestly a you problem and not Grigri problem
Looking forward to Clutch content!
Thanks for the quickie. 😂 I was looking forward to your review and optimistic that this would be good for lead-roped-solo. Looks like it might be much if an improvement over a grigri.
It's literally a dream for LRS
What was the rope size?
Fascinating. Could you do-all the tests? o.O
Why do people say you need to hold the grigri to pay out slack. That’s an option but you really don’t need to. I don’t know maybe with some ropes it’s difficult but I do not have difficulty just paying attention to my climber and paying out slack by just feeding it through slow enough just before my climber needs it. Only when I get behind the climber and they need slack fast will I put my thumb on it and whip out some slack.
If you'd want to pay out slack fast the best method though. Use the official method.
Id like to see the petzl rig used in a belay situation…. For those in an industrial climbing job who have the industrial equipment already
@jog-h7139 it works pretty exactly the same for belaying. The rig is just made for thicker ropes right, 11mm static ropes? And has the locking option to take your hand off the brake strand but you wouldn't use that feature while belaying, so you'd have to keep your hand on the brake strand. I guess you could lock it while the climber wasn't moving though.
Wait if you can’t use this at the top anchor, what is the point of this? Sure there are a few features better than an ATC, but for $150?
Does it twist the rope up like the grigri?
It's been mentioned, but I'd also like to see a lrs fall simulation of somekind
Does this make belaying with a microtraxion obsolete?
Belaying with a microtrax is already obsolete.
what's the diameter of the testing rope？ 10mm？
"...Catch like a GriGri but gives slack like an ATC."
Isn't that a Wild Country Revo?
Can't they add something on the side so you can use twins, or doubles? Why make such single use products?
A main difference with the clutch is the clutch is a one directional pulley
I thought that this was like that until I started using it. I wish there was a clutch that wasn’t $700ish!
when you're scrolling through youtube at midnight and HN2 has a video 8 minutes ago
I'm sad theres no edelrid pinch video still :(
Do a side by side with the pinch !
Fun fact. I've always pronounced it a NEO-X and asked petzl what was the correct way to pronounce it and they said "how ever you want"
I have the grigri +. I can use it like an ATC.
Blows my mind that Petzl would devote this much money just so people with no thumbs can belay.
Rope will run through the gri-gri with your hand guiding the rope into the device right there. That's a huge safety issue with the technique people are commonly taught with the grigri. This device makes the proper, safer rope technique easier and for a company that makes safety equipment it doesn't surprise me at all that they re-engineered it.
@@timreyes2179 only if you leave your thumb there. The problem with this device is the rope runs through the device WITHOUT your thumb on it. It’s less safe.
@theopinson3851
This video shows that if you aren't actively holding onto the rope, and your hand is guiding the rope into the device at this low friction angle, which is where the "pistol grip" keeps the rope, it will completely bypass the cam even if you're not blocking the cam.
Most whippers are not going to 8 kN and they certainly don't maintain forces above 8 kN as the climber slows. I bet in the time a climber falls before a loose brake hand on a grigri engages a climber will fall farther than a climber would in a crazy above 8 kN fall in the time it takes the device to slow them to the point where the neox stops slipping.
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