Want Kill Team Objective Markers and other cool things? Look here for 5% off using code GLASSHALFDEAD24: tinyurl.com/mry6uhyj My HOW TO PLAY KILL TEAM Video: ua-cam.com/video/1mPOpxA6sxE/v-deo.html&t If you like what I do, check out my Patreon: www.patreon.com/GlassHalfDead
There are some games such as the Batman Miniatures game by Knight Models that stipulate that any model with a specific base size is considered to take up a cylindrical volume a specified length high. No matter where the model's head is positioned, if a line can be drawn from that volume to the volume of another model, LOS is there. This allows for a wide variety of model sculpts and basing options. Doesn't matter of your model is crouching, launching into the air, short, tall, or have a wide, billowing cape. It allows for conversions and takes the guesswork out of the process
As an Infinity and (dare I mention it ) Relic Knights player, both games also have size/silhouette systems for models. Up to and including physical 'markers' that can be used to check visibility of target.
Because of Phobos 7" move,on Volkus I was able to have my marksman climb over the wall of a vantage (2" cost) across the 4" maximum gap for jumping, onto a stronghold vantage point ledge, balancing on the edge, then dash into a new vantage position with completely different line of sight on the battlefield. This was only possible because of the extra 1", and no 6" move model could do this crazy maneuver since reposition and dash cannot be combined together anymore when climbing (unless I've misunderstood something in the KT3 rules)
@@albertolaratro5956 My example was a reposition action that encompassed a 2" climb (traverse) and a gap jump, only possible with the 7" phobos move across a 4" gap. Also only possible because you're allowed to have your models base hanging off an edge. Otherwise the 32mm base would not allow it. EDIT: Additionally, I do see now that dash includes wording to restrict it from climbing, but not dropping. Thanks for the heads up!
The basic problem is that the visibility rules are stupid and can't be properly balanced. We have a house rule that the model is completely ignored. You have visibility if you can see the airspace above the base within the height of an average model from that team. No bonus for kneeling, no malus for a topknot or a raised arm. Visibility needs to go, frankly. It somehow has gotten worse with KT24. We literally never found ourselves sighting behind models in the old edition and suddenly, with exactly the same teams, we're doing it multiple times a game, every game. Not sure if that's a weird coincidence or whether reliance on visibility has actually increased.
@@seanalonzo9244 Legion is a masterclass in comfortable play. Silhouettes, movement based on one character instead of a whole squad, it's very brisk unless you're playing against your friend who spends 5-10 minutes placing every unit to be in cover from most directions, in which case its actually agonizing.
@@Luvulong very true. Which gets into the question of what is the head or the eyes. Because just below this someone else is arguing that the ratlings can see over the barricades because it's to the head not the eyes...
@@GlassHalfDead I'm seeing in the tournament scene, even GW events Faq that its any part of the head. Not horns. But Helmet, so I guess depends on the T.O
Good discussion! I’m gonna ask you to expand some, because the part about 1” = 2 wounds is just the start. Some players like to compare guns, true. But for Phobos that extra inch combines great with gathering VP and yeeting themselves as needed
Accurate 2 Hello! I suspect that the 5” move was used for thematic purposes & then they gave them a bump in ability to compensate. The Ratlings are going to be an interesting case in non-reciprocal shooting - some of the sculpts have parts of the model higher than its head, so they can’t shoot you, but you can shoot them because of visibility.
I feel like the height of ratlings might seem like a disadvantage (when thinking about traditional teams) but it may turn out to be more of a Pro than a Con on open maps. Their small size would allow many opportunities to set yourself up somewhere to get your shot, that literally no other enemy models, besides the one you're targeting, would be able to return fire on. A spot that no other model, even a crouching guardsman could utilize in the same fashion. This in combination with their Scarper ability might make them incredibly difficult to target as they are just peeking through small gaps or around jagged corners to shoot expended operatives, only to move away later if a danger presents itself to them.
Surely any advantage from modelling also gives you the equal disadvantage? If you model your sniper laid on the ground then their ability to hide is matched by their inability to shoot. As long as you are treating the models consistently in both cases it should balance out?
@faiir same still applies. either we can draw visibility to eachother or we can't. The rules of vantage are applied after visibility has been determined.
I'm really surprised you compared them to the Kreig without mentioning the Kreig sniper because what is interesting to me is that the Kreig sniper who is crouching has this same problem. In my experience we've all mostly ignored this for one model but I think if we start making this an actual question it brings up interesting issues for the Kreig. Is putting the sniper on a standing Kreig body modelling for advantage? Really I'm just fascinated whether this will be an issue since no one seemed to make a fuss about it but it still applies to the Kreig and to a lesser degree the Tau.
@@ant6227 I do mention the crouching pose of the korps specifically, in fact! But yes I didn't bring the crouching korps up because I wanted the gifts kept on the ratlings. The question of the crouching model was raised last edition. Are you allowed to make the sniper with a standing model. A whole bunch of stuff
Yeah that's a tough one, since I see them being so small they won't be able to see over most barricades, but then obviously won't be seen. But if you add an inch or even just a cm they can now see over, while being concealed so can shoot while silenced from more places. We'd definitely need an official ruling for this since what's to stop someone from putting that sniper model on a tower, glue that to the base and move that along. My biggest problem with visibility is that you make a line from the shooters head to ANY part of the targets model, good luck trying to hide admechs Transuranic arquebus' model, I think they should of stuck with Head to Head / Body.
18:30 yes, and I’ll go you one further, this is why the next edition needs to go to templated front-to-back movement in the style of Legion, Shatterpoint & so on.
I actually think this question is a lot more unclear than people realise. Vet guard are a great example. There are several models that can "legally" be built in crouching or standing poses. Which may confer various advantages and disadvantages for a given model. You could technically buy multiple boxes and build every standing or every crouching pose (or an optimum mix). GW has NEVER made any statement suggesting that you HAVE to build a model/team a particular way beyond some rough general guidance around "modelling for advantage". Nothing, ZERO, with regard to specs of a given team. I actually emailed the FAQ team regarding this because of the people that were kicking off regarding the Vespid Shadestrain and whether it was "modelling for advantage" to swap out his wings from the instructions for another pair, allowing him to get under certain vantage points. The wings are interchangeable on some of the models. GW has never explicitly stated that they HAVE to be assembled a particular way. They simply haven't so besides obvious stuff like model height for LoS I would argue that a great deal of this has no clear answer beyond "A TO ruled it that way".
Wasn't there a rtule that you can ignore terrain you are within 1inch or base contact with when drawing line of sight? I remember this coming up with my termagaunts [hormagaunts? the shooty gaunts] that are shorter than the pipes terrain.
Agree cannot put plastic models in a sock to defend yourself against an angry opponent who is incensed by your converted rattling squad who are all lying down.
I had the same thought this week, as I was looking at whether it would be viable (even in friendly play) to use ancient OOP metal 1e 40K Harlequin models for a KT24 Void-Dancer Troupe Kill Team when EVERY model is easily 20mm shorter than the current Harlequin plastic models (which are not only almost all modelled in jumping poses, but they are doing such from high point on terrain). This is not just a matter of adding a 3mm spacer (which I have done with OOP metal Kasrkins and Space Marine Scouts when mounting them on 28mm bases to make them taller to better match current models...). Thoughts?
If I went to an event and my opponent said that due to a scenic base or a conversion that I had an unbeatable advantage and insisted that I also had to model in a specific way and then also provide a second official team. First I would check if they where serious, if they where I would give them the win and then play a game for fun as clearly they needed that "win".
Also, I bet the Ratlings just have a cring-inducing Faction Ability that just says they're slightly taller than they look because you have to imagine the model standing on its tippy-toes to see over barricades....
Silhouettes! place it behind the model in question. Then it can be whatever shape/size. Maybe GW hates that then, because then people don't buy their specific models
Could have been a whole video about Dwarves. Same visibility issues + the movement questions. Look at Volkus map #1 deploy on the left side where the stronghold is in your drop zone. Mathematically impossible to be within 1 inch of the stronghold wall nearer centerline. Only play is to try and get visibility blocking under the vantage. Terrible deploy for any 5" move team, But coupled with the visibility issues behind the ruins makes that deploy really troublesome for LoV teams.
I am *immediately* testy about someone moving in a way that gives them extra movement. It bothers me as much as scooping up your dice before I've seen them.
@@Panta8472 well if it is then I can't say but my motivations at the beginning for why I made this were true. Seeing people start to kitbash had me concerned! I'm sure this team will be fine but I assume it will be balanced around they're notable height!
No idea tbh. I assume they just use any same size base. But I would hope that when testing the ratlings they would have ALSO considered size, which they wouldn't need to normally.
So what would people say about the official GW eliminator that is crouching? It's both shorter so that it claims less visibility, but also is harder to get visibility to? These visibility rules should have been modernised with this edition. Real stone age mechanics
This is just another reason why I switched to Malifaux... like other mini agnostic games, it deals with just base size and a simple height that corresponds. No, bs sightings or jank of i can see your finger so i can kill your model... 2 sightlines that go off a base if 1 hits you have sight. Size? Near cover... your using slender man as a totem? Xyz? Good... i still play killteam with a few at my flgs, but it feels so bad to go back, too...
I don't see it as equivalent. Making a model too small to see over the terrain means I can't target them and they can't target me. We are both invisible. If they build the model up, they can shoot me, and I can shoot them... Moving an additional distance, benefits only one player.
The bigger the base the further your movement gives you. Phobos at 32mm base and 7" movement result in almos 8" of actual board coverage vs a 25mm or 28mm base.
Want Kill Team Objective Markers and other cool things? Look here for 5% off using code GLASSHALFDEAD24: tinyurl.com/mry6uhyj
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If you like what I do, check out my Patreon: www.patreon.com/GlassHalfDead
Don't know why, but the little musical sting for the double hello makes me double over with laughter every time. Truly we are spoiled as subscribers.
Andy is an influential genius
The dopameme is strong
There are some games such as the Batman Miniatures game by Knight Models that stipulate that any model with a specific base size is considered to take up a cylindrical volume a specified length high. No matter where the model's head is positioned, if a line can be drawn from that volume to the volume of another model, LOS is there. This allows for a wide variety of model sculpts and basing options. Doesn't matter of your model is crouching, launching into the air, short, tall, or have a wide, billowing cape. It allows for conversions and takes the guesswork out of the process
As an Infinity and (dare I mention it ) Relic Knights player, both games also have size/silhouette systems for models. Up to and including physical 'markers' that can be used to check visibility of target.
there should be Silhouet pack $$$$$ foe each faction, maybe using the new mdf stuff.
Because of Phobos 7" move,on Volkus I was able to have my marksman climb over the wall of a vantage (2" cost) across the 4" maximum gap for jumping, onto a stronghold vantage point ledge, balancing on the edge, then dash into a new vantage position with completely different line of sight on the battlefield. This was only possible because of the extra 1", and no 6" move model could do this crazy maneuver since reposition and dash cannot be combined together anymore when climbing (unless I've misunderstood something in the KT3 rules)
You can't climb with dash
@@albertolaratro5956 My example was a reposition action that encompassed a 2" climb (traverse) and a gap jump, only possible with the 7" phobos move across a 4" gap. Also only possible because you're allowed to have your models base hanging off an edge. Otherwise the 32mm base would not allow it. EDIT: Additionally, I do see now that dash includes wording to restrict it from climbing, but not dropping. Thanks for the heads up!
I agree with what you're about to say
Reverend Glass's Sunday Sermon ...I think, "What game are you even playing!?!?" should be the official way to challenge _'cheating'_ henceforth.
The basic problem is that the visibility rules are stupid and can't be properly balanced. We have a house rule that the model is completely ignored. You have visibility if you can see the airspace above the base within the height of an average model from that team. No bonus for kneeling, no malus for a topknot or a raised arm. Visibility needs to go, frankly.
It somehow has gotten worse with KT24. We literally never found ourselves sighting behind models in the old edition and suddenly, with exactly the same teams, we're doing it multiple times a game, every game. Not sure if that's a weird coincidence or whether reliance on visibility has actually increased.
Star wars legion uses a silhouette. Allows you to enjoy awesome modeling.
@@seanalonzo9244 Legion is a masterclass in comfortable play. Silhouettes, movement based on one character instead of a whole squad, it's very brisk unless you're playing against your friend who spends 5-10 minutes placing every unit to be in cover from most directions, in which case its actually agonizing.
Visibility from the eyes! Not just the head. The horn of a beast cant see stuff. Rubic marines top of the helmet cant see you.
@@Luvulong very true. Which gets into the question of what is the head or the eyes. Because just below this someone else is arguing that the ratlings can see over the barricades because it's to the head not the eyes...
@@GlassHalfDead I'm seeing in the tournament scene, even GW events Faq that its any part of the head. Not horns. But Helmet, so I guess depends on the T.O
@@Kenfyoos it's any part of the head, yes. To say just from the eyes would be too finicky
That was a deeper, more philosophical jaunt than I was expecting.
Good discussion! I’m gonna ask you to expand some, because the part about 1” = 2 wounds is just the start. Some players like to compare guns, true. But for Phobos that extra inch combines great with gathering VP and yeeting themselves as needed
The only correct rule in designing rules for visibility for any miniature game is MODELLING DOESN'T MATTER.
100% agree. So many systems use the silhouette method and it works fine. I do touch upon this in the vid, but yeah it's nuts
Faction Equipment: Box
Tactical Crate
Accurate 2 Hello! I suspect that the 5” move was used for thematic purposes & then they gave them a bump in ability to compensate.
The Ratlings are going to be an interesting case in non-reciprocal shooting - some of the sculpts have parts of the model higher than its head, so they can’t shoot you, but you can shoot them because of visibility.
i think you should've chosen other crouched mini sculpts to compare to, the death corps even have one as well!
2:05 all the best Kill Team channels promote Battlekit.
U cant play kill team without battlekit imho
I still prefer ktdash because i can put my own pictures on my loadout.
@@Luvulong how can you do that
@@DiceRidersJM edit profile
I feel like the height of ratlings might seem like a disadvantage (when thinking about traditional teams) but it may turn out to be more of a Pro than a Con on open maps. Their small size would allow many opportunities to set yourself up somewhere to get your shot, that literally no other enemy models, besides the one you're targeting, would be able to return fire on. A spot that no other model, even a crouching guardsman could utilize in the same fashion. This in combination with their Scarper ability might make them incredibly difficult to target as they are just peeking through small gaps or around jagged corners to shoot expended operatives, only to move away later if a danger presents itself to them.
Surely any advantage from modelling also gives you the equal disadvantage? If you model your sniper laid on the ground then their ability to hide is matched by their inability to shoot. As long as you are treating the models consistently in both cases it should balance out?
Unless they have vantage.
@faiir same still applies. either we can draw visibility to eachother or we can't. The rules of vantage are applied after visibility has been determined.
I'm really surprised you compared them to the Kreig without mentioning the Kreig sniper because what is interesting to me is that the Kreig sniper who is crouching has this same problem. In my experience we've all mostly ignored this for one model but I think if we start making this an actual question it brings up interesting issues for the Kreig. Is putting the sniper on a standing Kreig body modelling for advantage?
Really I'm just fascinated whether this will be an issue since no one seemed to make a fuss about it but it still applies to the Kreig and to a lesser degree the Tau.
@@ant6227 I do mention the crouching pose of the korps specifically, in fact!
But yes I didn't bring the crouching korps up because I wanted the gifts kept on the ratlings. The question of the crouching model was raised last edition. Are you allowed to make the sniper with a standing model. A whole bunch of stuff
Yeah that's a tough one, since I see them being so small they won't be able to see over most barricades, but then obviously won't be seen. But if you add an inch or even just a cm they can now see over, while being concealed so can shoot while silenced from more places. We'd definitely need an official ruling for this since what's to stop someone from putting that sniper model on a tower, glue that to the base and move that along. My biggest problem with visibility is that you make a line from the shooters head to ANY part of the targets model, good luck trying to hide admechs Transuranic arquebus' model, I think they should of stuck with Head to Head / Body.
18:30 yes, and I’ll go you one further, this is why the next edition needs to go to templated front-to-back movement in the style of Legion, Shatterpoint & so on.
I actually think this question is a lot more unclear than people realise. Vet guard are a great example. There are several models that can "legally" be built in crouching or standing poses. Which may confer various advantages and disadvantages for a given model. You could technically buy multiple boxes and build every standing or every crouching pose (or an optimum mix). GW has NEVER made any statement suggesting that you HAVE to build a model/team a particular way beyond some rough general guidance around "modelling for advantage". Nothing, ZERO, with regard to specs of a given team. I actually emailed the FAQ team regarding this because of the people that were kicking off regarding the Vespid Shadestrain and whether it was "modelling for advantage" to swap out his wings from the instructions for another pair, allowing him to get under certain vantage points. The wings are interchangeable on some of the models. GW has never explicitly stated that they HAVE to be assembled a particular way. They simply haven't so besides obvious stuff like model height for LoS I would argue that a great deal of this has no clear answer beyond "A TO ruled it that way".
I agree with what you are about to say.
Wasn't there a rtule that you can ignore terrain you are within 1inch or base contact with when drawing line of sight?
I remember this coming up with my termagaunts [hormagaunts? the shooty gaunts] that are shorter than the pipes terrain.
Not a rule unfortunately, no. You get to ignore heavy terrain within 1" of you when counting obscuring.
i guess one could argue that building all your krieg on the kneeling pose is modeling for advantage, as thats not an "official" build variant.
I suspect that the new Ratlings will be somewhat larger than your Gen 2 metal Ratlings.
I have the two from Blackstone fortress. Pretty dang small.
@@seanalonzo9244 I literally have rein and raus... I should have used them lol
@@GlassHalfDead maybe...but old school metal models are always awesome too.
Agree cannot put plastic models in a sock to defend yourself against an angry opponent who is incensed by your converted rattling squad who are all lying down.
I had the same thought this week, as I was looking at whether it would be viable (even in friendly play) to use ancient OOP metal 1e 40K Harlequin models for a KT24 Void-Dancer Troupe Kill Team when EVERY model is easily 20mm shorter than the current Harlequin plastic models (which are not only almost all modelled in jumping poses, but they are doing such from high point on terrain). This is not just a matter of adding a 3mm spacer (which I have done with OOP metal Kasrkins and Space Marine Scouts when mounting them on 28mm bases to make them taller to better match current models...). Thoughts?
If I went to an event and my opponent said that due to a scenic base or a conversion that I had an unbeatable advantage and insisted that I also had to model in a specific way and then also provide a second official team. First I would check if they where serious, if they where I would give them the win and then play a game for fun as clearly they needed that "win".
Also, I bet the Ratlings just have a cring-inducing Faction Ability that just says they're slightly taller than they look because you have to imagine the model standing on its tippy-toes to see over barricades....
Silhouettes! place it behind the model in question. Then it can be whatever shape/size. Maybe GW hates that then, because then people don't buy their specific models
Faction special rule: tippy-toes
Could have been a whole video about Dwarves. Same visibility issues + the movement questions. Look at Volkus map #1 deploy on the left side where the stronghold is in your drop zone. Mathematically impossible to be within 1 inch of the stronghold wall nearer centerline. Only play is to try and get visibility blocking under the vantage. Terrible deploy for any 5" move team, But coupled with the visibility issues behind the ruins makes that deploy really troublesome for LoV teams.
I am *immediately* testy about someone moving in a way that gives them extra movement. It bothers me as much as scooping up your dice before I've seen them.
is this one of those situations where you've already seen the teams and everything past 11 mins is just you pretending it might be different?
@@Panta8472 well if it is then I can't say but my motivations at the beginning for why I made this were true. Seeing people start to kitbash had me concerned!
I'm sure this team will be fine but I assume it will be balanced around they're notable height!
Listening to this video, is anyone else having flashbacks to when Oddjob or Nik Nak were selected on N64 Goldeneye multiplayer? IYKYK 😅
The good old days.
So playtesting (if it's even done) what do they use to represent new models?
No idea tbh. I assume they just use any same size base. But I would hope that when testing the ratlings they would have ALSO considered size, which they wouldn't need to normally.
what if they ignore cover withing thier control range
So what would people say about the official GW eliminator that is crouching? It's both shorter so that it claims less visibility, but also is harder to get visibility to?
These visibility rules should have been modernised with this edition. Real stone age mechanics
The LOS rules in GW games are dumb, as written. When we play we just ignore stuff like antennas, wing tips, etc.
This is just another reason why I switched to Malifaux... like other mini agnostic games, it deals with just base size and a simple height that corresponds. No, bs sightings or jank of i can see your finger so i can kill your model... 2 sightlines that go off a base if 1 hits you have sight. Size? Near cover... your using slender man as a totem? Xyz? Good... i still play killteam with a few at my flgs, but it feels so bad to go back, too...
Of course you point out when someone is moving too far. Why wouldn't you?
That's the comparison he's making, so why wouldn't you call out a higher based mini.
I don't see it as equivalent. Making a model too small to see over the terrain means I can't target them and they can't target me. We are both invisible. If they build the model up, they can shoot me, and I can shoot them...
Moving an additional distance, benefits only one player.
Hate when an opponent is liberal with movement
first
The bigger the base the further your movement gives you. Phobos at 32mm base and 7" movement result in almos 8" of actual board coverage vs a 25mm or 28mm base.
You're measuring movement incorrectly. You don't measure to include base size
I have an easy fix for GWs crappy rule and miniature balance, play Deadzone :)