Forgive the ignorant question, but if the cause of the issue is filming at too low a frame rate (25/24 for example), and so you film at 50fps, to avoid the jittery issue when panning, if exporting at 25fps, wouldn't that effectively halve the number of frames and cause the jittery footage to be there anyway? Wouldn't you need to film everything, and export at, 50fps, to avoid the jitter still being there?
Hi! This is actually a really good question, no ignorant questiions on my channel, we are all here too learn from each other 😀 It's the filming rate that is important rather than the export rate. So when filming, if recording at 25fps and move the camera, the distance the camera moves during the pan will be twice that at 50fps. 25fps is most likely to cause motion blur especially if combined with a slower shutter speed (which makes it worse). Say for example, that the camera moves 90 degrees in 10 second pan - then we have 250 frames to cover that 90 degrees, therefore each frame is 0.36 degrees (90/250). If we film at 50 frames instead, then the camera moves 0.18 degrees per frame (90/250). As it's moving a smaller distance, there is less motion blur recorded between the frames. If we record in 100 fps, or 250fps then it'll be even smaller. When we export to a 25fps timeline, the 50fps clip will be 20 seconds in length rather than 10 seconds as it plays back at 25fps. In reality, we'd probably cut the pan back to 10 seconds so we don't die of boredom of watching a 20 second panning shot. Even so..as the camera has already recorded to the video frame, the motion blur or lack of motion blur is already "baked in" to the footage - so it doesn't matter the export is in 25fps as it won't then cause blurring or jitter. Really hope that makes sense as it's a bit complex to explain! Best, Tiim
Wowzers! That's A LOT of information! Thanks SO much for taking the time to write all that out. I'll be honest and say it's a bit over my head, but I know I just need to get out there and actually film more, to hopefully wrap my head around it all. At the end of the day, as long as (as you put it) the info is baked in at 50, then stays there at 25, that's all I really need to worry about. Cheers!@@4T-Tech
@@4T-Tech but then we gonna lose motion blur which as i heard is what makes the footage looks realistic as human eye, i mean why this issue does exist in the first place, movies are shot at 24 fps
Hi Phil! That's so cool, thanks for letting me know. Pleased the videos are useful to you. If you have any other questions, let me know and I'll do my best to help!
Hi, thanks for the info it is very informative. I am experiencing this issue when filming in 4K only. Unfortunately I don't have 50fps available so have to stick to 25fps and pan very slowly using around the 7 second rule. What I don't quite understand is why in HD I can shoot at 25fps and there's no Judder no matter how fast I pan? Is this because there is less pixel resolution? Thanks
What if you were doing a walking scene or something with a circular shot and dialog? Slowing the footage changes the sync with audio, right? Do you have a solution? Please point me in the right direction! Thanks!
Hi- that's a great question! If the audio is embedded into the video file then it will also be slowed down that is true. What I suggest is either: 1) before you slow the clip, split the audio from the video clip onto a separate track and then only slow down the video so the audio is unchanged or 2) use the audio backup feature of the pocket 3 so it records a separate wav file to the video and use that audio instead. Does that make sense?
Hi there - I'm glad this was useful! No, having clips of different frame rates won't affect the editing process as in the editor you'll need to pick the timeline frame rate eg if the timeline is 30fps for example, then a clip could be 60fps but will still play at 60fps even on a 30fps timeline. Any 30fps clips will play back at 30fps. While this may seem completely bonkers, the timeline fps will only take affect when exporting the video at the end. The 60fps will then be encoded at 30fps, the clip will get cropped at 50% if that makes sense.
Motion blur caused by a panning shot is *not* the issue here! I did some rather too quick pans and when playing them back, the image appeared kind of blurry. But stopping the playback and analyzing individual frames showed that each individual frame was very sharp! The simple explanation is that frame rate and shutter speed outdoors with daylight are not the same. The camera uses mainly the shutter speed to adapt to lighting conditions if there is enough light available. So individual frames are shot with, for example, a shutter speed of 1/2000 s on a sunny day. The resulting individual frames are all extremly sharp. But the playback is blurry if things move quickly. This phenomenon is not limited to panning. When filming roads on a moving vehicle, license plates of approching vehicles are inreadble on playback but the are clearly readble once the playback is stopped. It would be interesting what exactly causes this phenomenon. Some computer screens may run on 30 Hz refresh rate, others on 60 Hz or higher. UA-cam uploads can be done with frame rates higher than 30 fps. So let‘s try it out and record in 60 fps and upload in 60 fps to youtube to show the difference, if there are any.
Hi - thanks for getting back with this great explanation! This indeed is very interesting and more complex than seemed on the surface. Maybe it's a combination of shutter, frame and also the refresh rate of the monitor. It's a good suggestion to do a 60fps pan and a 30fps and do an upload to see if it's YT or monitor messing with it. Played locally footage appears not to jerky so it also could be maybe bit rate on slower machines etc. I don't notice it when doing vertical tilt shots either. I need to do more research..thanks for your contribution
Hi - good question. I think it would actually be tricky to fix in post, if not shot in 50 or 60fps as it's still going to look choppy on a bigger screen unfortunately. Running the footage through stabilisation may help a bit.
Show us a before/after clip to demonstrate this fix. I assert that you will STILL see the judder regardless. I have tried every which way to resolve judder on OP3 and I can't fix it, regardless of 2X shutter speed or even higher.
Hi - yes fair enough, agreed - I will produce another video with further explanation and before/after shots to show the technique further. I'll add it to my video to-do list!
+1. I used this rule from the start (24p, 1/50). I was shocked to see the level of judder my Osmo Pocket 3 footage. I really don't think there is a solid solution for CMOS sensors in this area. Shoot in 60 fps and conform to 24p in post?
I realized two things: - iPhone 14 Pro Max shots in 4k/60fps with much less judder when panning fast VS same settings for DJI (seems DJI just needs more care when moving). However, iPhone has even wors judder when shooting at 24-30 FPS. So, it wins at 60. - When exporting the final footage captured in 30FPS, in 24FPS instead - this helps to remove judder about 30%. So, I'll go with 60FPS when panning and moving more actively. Will be more careful with movements when shooting on DJI in general. And if the footage is spoiled, I'll be exporting in a lesser FPS. Thank you for this video as DJI was expected to handle that no worse than iPhone having Gimbal. But seems that it needs more care and iPhone is still a good choice, especially when mastered using Blackmagic cam.
Hi this is interesting. I only had the chance to do some more experimentation recently. I found that if filming in 60fps then exporting at 30fps or 60fps would keep the panning smooth even if the pan was quite fast. For me, the Pocket 3 looked similar to the iPhone and didn't seem worse. I found that exporting at 25fps or 50fps had a lot of judder, so as long as it either matched the fps or was 50% of it.
This makes no sense. If you're filming at 24 fps and having the issue, this obviously implies you are going to be editing on a 24 fps timeline. So if you take the footage at 48 fps (to try to resolve the jitter issue) and you put that into a 24 fps timeline, the editing software will throw away every other frame because 48 does not fit into 24. It can only display 24 frames per second and you're giving it 48, so it throws 1/2 the frames into the garbage. So you're right back where you started.
Hi - yes and no. If you want the clip to play at real speed indeed it will throw every other frame away, but that doesn't matter. Why? Because it's the recording frame rate that's important. When filming, if recording at 25fps and pan the camera 90 degrees, the distance the camera moves BETWEEN EACH FRAME during the pan will be twice that at 50fps. 25fps is most likely to cause motion blur especially if combined with a slower shutter speed (which makes it worse). Say for example, that the camera moves 90 degrees in 10 second pan - then we have 250 frames to cover that 90 degrees, therefore each frame is 0.36 degrees (90/250). If we film at 50 frames instead, then the camera moves 0.18 degrees per frame (90/250). As it's moving a smaller distance, there is less motion blur recorded between the frames. If we record in 100 fps, or 250fps then it'll be even smaller. The motion blur is baked into the recorded frame at this stage. When we export to a 25fps timeline, the 50fps clip will be 20 seconds in length rather than 10 seconds. If we want it to play back in real speed, and reframe to 10 seconds, each alternative frame will be binned. Even so..as the camera has already recorded to the video frame, the motion blur or lack of motion blur is already "baked in" to the footage - so it doesn't matter the export is in 25fps as it won't then cause blurring or jitter.
I did a test and what said is wrong, the panning speed depends on the frame rate and focal length, not the shutter speed. The effect name is juddering.
Hello, thanks for the comment. Yes, I agree the correct term for the effect is judder, though I most people might not know the term and would think jiitter or stuttter. However, the information given in the video is correct according to cinematography rules - the main cause of judder is frame rate and shutter speed which should be at least 180 degree or 90 degree from the frame rate. Focal length does indeed make the effect worse and is a factor, this is true, but so is the refresh rate of the screen. However, the majority of the audience of the video are beginner's or non-professionals who have action cameras or Pocket 3 which have a fixed focal length so can't alter it. Therefore the video assumes a fixed focal length and instead concentrates on the main cause of shuter + frame rate. Panning speed won't depend on focal length - the speed of panning is controlled by the speed of movement of the camera operator only. Focal length will effect the angle of the pan, and will magnify the effect of judder.
Forgive the ignorant question, but if the cause of the issue is filming at too low a frame rate (25/24 for example), and so you film at 50fps, to avoid the jittery issue when panning, if exporting at 25fps, wouldn't that effectively halve the number of frames and cause the jittery footage to be there anyway? Wouldn't you need to film everything, and export at, 50fps, to avoid the jitter still being there?
Hi! This is actually a really good question, no ignorant questiions on my channel, we are all here too learn from each other 😀 It's the filming rate that is important rather than the export rate. So when filming, if recording at 25fps and move the camera, the distance the camera moves during the pan will be twice that at 50fps. 25fps is most likely to cause motion blur especially if combined with a slower shutter speed (which makes it worse). Say for example, that the camera moves 90 degrees in 10 second pan - then we have 250 frames to cover that 90 degrees, therefore each frame is 0.36 degrees (90/250). If we film at 50 frames instead, then the camera moves 0.18 degrees per frame (90/250). As it's moving a smaller distance, there is less motion blur recorded between the frames. If we record in 100 fps, or 250fps then it'll be even smaller.
When we export to a 25fps timeline, the 50fps clip will be 20 seconds in length rather than 10 seconds as it plays back at 25fps. In reality, we'd probably cut the pan back to 10 seconds so we don't die of boredom of watching a 20 second panning shot. Even so..as the camera has already recorded to the video frame, the motion blur or lack of motion blur is already "baked in" to the footage - so it doesn't matter the export is in 25fps as it won't then cause blurring or jitter.
Really hope that makes sense as it's a bit complex to explain! Best, Tiim
Wowzers! That's A LOT of information! Thanks SO much for taking the time to write all that out. I'll be honest and say it's a bit over my head, but I know I just need to get out there and actually film more, to hopefully wrap my head around it all. At the end of the day, as long as (as you put it) the info is baked in at 50, then stays there at 25, that's all I really need to worry about. Cheers!@@4T-Tech
@@4T-Tech but then we gonna lose motion blur which as i heard is what makes the footage looks realistic as human eye, i mean why this issue does exist in the first place, movies are shot at 24 fps
I get the absolute best advice and tips from you. It is much appreciated. Thanks. Happy Holdays to you and yours!
Hi Phil! That's so cool, thanks for letting me know. Pleased the videos are useful to you. If you have any other questions, let me know and I'll do my best to help!
Thanks for the elaborate explanation!
Hi so pleased that it was helpful for you!
Hi, thanks for the info it is very informative. I am experiencing this issue when filming in 4K only. Unfortunately I don't have 50fps available so have to stick to 25fps and pan very slowly using around the 7 second rule. What I don't quite understand is why in HD I can shoot at 25fps and there's no Judder no matter how fast I pan? Is this because there is less pixel resolution? Thanks
Thanks very much Tim. A great explanation!
Hi John, glad you found the video useful! Let me know if you have any other questions, and season greetings! Best wishes, Tim
This is a great find. I was facing this and had no clue what was going on
Hi - so pleased it was helpful for you!
How to fix footage after it has the jitter?
What if you were doing a walking scene or something with a circular shot and dialog? Slowing the footage changes the sync with audio, right? Do you have a solution? Please point me in the right direction! Thanks!
Hi- that's a great question! If the audio is embedded into the video file then it will also be slowed down that is true. What I suggest is either: 1) before you slow the clip, split the audio from the video clip onto a separate track and then only slow down the video so the audio is unchanged or 2) use the audio backup feature of the pocket 3 so it records a separate wav file to the video and use that audio instead. Does that make sense?
Thank you, I couldn’t find any explanation elsewhere. Will this affect the editing process, having two different frame rates?
Hi there - I'm glad this was useful! No, having clips of different frame rates won't affect the editing process as in the editor you'll need to pick the timeline frame rate eg if the timeline is 30fps for example, then a clip could be 60fps but will still play at 60fps even on a 30fps timeline. Any 30fps clips will play back at 30fps. While this may seem completely bonkers, the timeline fps will only take affect when exporting the video at the end. The 60fps will then be encoded at 30fps, the clip will get cropped at 50% if that makes sense.
@@4T-Tech yes, ty!
Needed this. Thanks!
Hi- I'm glad this was useful for you
Very helpful! This has always bugged me. I know how to fix it now. Thank you!
Hi - thanks for watching and glad it was useful for you! Best, Tim
Motion blur caused by a panning shot is *not* the issue here!
I did some rather too quick pans and when playing them back, the image appeared kind of blurry. But stopping the playback and analyzing individual frames showed that each individual frame was very sharp!
The simple explanation is that frame rate and shutter speed outdoors with daylight are not the same. The camera uses mainly the shutter speed to adapt to lighting conditions if there is enough light available. So individual frames are shot with, for example, a shutter speed of 1/2000 s on a sunny day. The resulting individual frames are all extremly sharp. But the playback is blurry if things move quickly. This phenomenon is not limited to panning. When filming roads on a moving vehicle, license plates of approching vehicles are inreadble on playback but the are clearly readble once the playback is stopped.
It would be interesting what exactly causes this phenomenon. Some computer screens may run on 30 Hz refresh rate, others on 60 Hz or higher. UA-cam uploads can be done with frame rates higher than 30 fps. So let‘s try it out and record in 60 fps and upload in 60 fps to youtube to show the difference, if there are any.
Hi - thanks for getting back with this great explanation! This indeed is very interesting and more complex than seemed on the surface. Maybe it's a combination of shutter, frame and also the refresh rate of the monitor. It's a good suggestion to do a 60fps pan and a 30fps and do an upload to see if it's YT or monitor messing with it. Played locally footage appears not to jerky so it also could be maybe bit rate on slower machines etc. I don't notice it when doing vertical tilt shots either. I need to do more research..thanks for your contribution
It was very helpful thanks
You think about video like I do -- like an engineer. Great video.
Hi there - yes I'm actually a computer engineer so probably hardwired to think like this!
@@4T-Tech I am also a computer engineer but I moved into software
@@jannarkiewicz633 Hi! Actually I'm also a computer programmer too, I do .NET (C#) and React stuff mainly. What software programming you do?
@@4T-Tech google my name. We are pretty similar.
thanks for the video. Could you also know to fix such a video in post. I am back from the location and only have the juddery video to use :(
Hi - good question. I think it would actually be tricky to fix in post, if not shot in 50 or 60fps as it's still going to look choppy on a bigger screen unfortunately. Running the footage through stabilisation may help a bit.
Show us a before/after clip to demonstrate this fix. I assert that you will STILL see the judder regardless. I have tried every which way to resolve judder on OP3 and I can't fix it, regardless of 2X shutter speed or even higher.
Hi - yes fair enough, agreed - I will produce another video with further explanation and before/after shots to show the technique further. I'll add it to my video to-do list!
+1. I used this rule from the start (24p, 1/50). I was shocked to see the level of judder my Osmo Pocket 3 footage. I really don't think there is a solid solution for CMOS sensors in this area. Shoot in 60 fps and conform to 24p in post?
I realized two things:
- iPhone 14 Pro Max shots in 4k/60fps with much less judder when panning fast VS same settings for DJI (seems DJI just needs more care when moving). However, iPhone has even wors judder when shooting at 24-30 FPS. So, it wins at 60.
- When exporting the final footage captured in 30FPS, in 24FPS instead - this helps to remove judder about 30%.
So, I'll go with 60FPS when panning and moving more actively. Will be more careful with movements when shooting on DJI in general. And if the footage is spoiled, I'll be exporting in a lesser FPS.
Thank you for this video as DJI was expected to handle that no worse than iPhone having Gimbal. But seems that it needs more care and iPhone is still a good choice, especially when mastered using Blackmagic cam.
Hi this is interesting. I only had the chance to do some more experimentation recently. I found that if filming in 60fps then exporting at 30fps or 60fps would keep the panning smooth even if the pan was quite fast. For me, the Pocket 3 looked similar to the iPhone and didn't seem worse. I found that exporting at 25fps or 50fps had a lot of judder, so as long as it either matched the fps or was 50% of it.
THANXXX
Glad it could help!
I get jitters when I don't pan as well😮. Thx!!!😊
This makes no sense. If you're filming at 24 fps and having the issue, this obviously implies you are going to be editing on a 24 fps timeline. So if you take the footage at 48 fps (to try to resolve the jitter issue) and you put that into a 24 fps timeline, the editing software will throw away every other frame because 48 does not fit into 24. It can only display 24 frames per second and you're giving it 48, so it throws 1/2 the frames into the garbage. So you're right back where you started.
Hi - yes and no. If you want the clip to play at real speed indeed it will throw every other frame away, but that doesn't matter. Why? Because it's the recording frame rate that's important. When filming, if recording at 25fps and pan the camera 90 degrees, the distance the camera moves BETWEEN EACH FRAME during the pan will be twice that at 50fps. 25fps is most likely to cause motion blur especially if combined with a slower shutter speed (which makes it worse). Say for example, that the camera moves 90 degrees in 10 second pan - then we have 250 frames to cover that 90 degrees, therefore each frame is 0.36 degrees (90/250). If we film at 50 frames instead, then the camera moves 0.18 degrees per frame (90/250). As it's moving a smaller distance, there is less motion blur recorded between the frames. If we record in 100 fps, or 250fps then it'll be even smaller. The motion blur is baked into the recorded frame at this stage.
When we export to a 25fps timeline, the 50fps clip will be 20 seconds in length rather than 10 seconds. If we want it to play back in real speed, and reframe to 10 seconds, each alternative frame will be binned. Even so..as the camera has already recorded to the video frame, the motion blur or lack of motion blur is already "baked in" to the footage - so it doesn't matter the export is in 25fps as it won't then cause blurring or jitter.
I did a test and what said is wrong, the panning speed depends on the frame rate and focal length, not the shutter speed. The effect name is juddering.
Hello, thanks for the comment. Yes, I agree the correct term for the effect is judder, though I most people might not know the term and would think jiitter or stuttter. However, the information given in the video is correct according to cinematography rules - the main cause of judder is frame rate and shutter speed which should be at least 180 degree or 90 degree from the frame rate. Focal length does indeed make the effect worse and is a factor, this is true, but so is the refresh rate of the screen. However, the majority of the audience of the video are beginner's or non-professionals who have action cameras or Pocket 3 which have a fixed focal length so can't alter it. Therefore the video assumes a fixed focal length and instead concentrates on the main cause of shuter + frame rate. Panning speed won't depend on focal length - the speed of panning is controlled by the speed of movement of the camera operator only. Focal length will effect the angle of the pan, and will magnify the effect of judder.