Experienced cinematographer here adding my two cents on top of what Thomas said in case you wanted to dig deeper. There are two potential problems with panning quickly: -The stuttering problem is caused by shooting in 24fps and showing at 30 frames per second. When you convert 24 to 30fps, you have to duplicate/blend frames in a process called 2:3 pulldown. This means that every few frames, the motion stops, then continues again. Moving super slow or super fast does not eliminate this problem, it just makes it less noticeable. You can notice this in his shot of his tripod panning around 0:18. If you go forward and back frame by frame by hitting the "," and "." buttons, you can see that sometimes, the silver panning control bar moves less between frames than others. Some TV's will try to artificially correct for this, but the effect looks really cheesy, computerized and fake. -The other problem is strobing caused by a faster than needed shutter speed. If you are shooting at 24fps, your shutter speed should be 1/48th of a sec. If you are shooting at 30, your shutter speed should be at 1/60th of a second. If your shutter speed is too fast, then the time gap between taking one frame and the next is too large and we notice it more. It looks more like a flipbook than a movie. The Rubber band is a great suggestion. I used to do that before I got a better tripod. The disadvantage is lack of control. A lot of less expensive tripods have a little wiggle before the resistance catches and often the resistance is inconsistent because instead of having a fluid resistance (like oil being forced through a tiny hole) it has a screw dragging on a piece of steel that gets worn through unevenly. A lot of less expensive tripod heads have pretty good fluid resistance for the tilt, but no fluid resistance for the pan. By the way, the purpose of resistance is to even out the little micro-tremors your hand might have -everything from slight shake down to just your heartbeat. More resistance equals smoother move- especially if that resistance is accomplished through a fluid trying to squeeze through a tiny hole because it eases in and out as opposed to coming to a sudden stop/start. But the rubber band accomplishes very much the same effect - it starts off with very little pull, compensates for a lot of your micro hand gestures, and when you pull really hard, the elastic stretches, evening out your movement. But you just don't have as much control. Tripods with proper fluid pan resistance can be expensive, and sometimes expense doesn't line up with quality, so I highly recommend that you try it out in person at a camera store before buying. Sorry to blather on. Anyway, good video.
Oh, and one more problem with 24fps - 30fps thing. If you shoot 24fps, and stream at 24 fps, but the end user's monitor refreshes at 60fps, you still have stutter because 24 does not divide evenly into 60. Here is an example: ua-cam.com/video/5SSU-s0AUH0/v-deo.html if you go frame by frame, the shot looks fine. If you watch it on a monitor with a refresh rate that 24 doesn't evenly divide into, it is going to look a bit stuttery.
I've come to the conclusion that the only way I can get buttery smooth tilting/panning is via an expensive head/tripod. Impossible on the photo tripod I have even with a rubberband
@@spencersnygg9041 Great info but then why do movies look perfectly fine on our regular screens and phones at home? They are playing at 24 fps, aren’t they? And I’ve tried the rule of 180 (24 fps at 1/48) but still there’s jitter even if camera is fixed and the subject moves.
Also make sure that the video editing software is set to the same frame rate as the video was shot in, having double frames will also make the video judder/stutter.
Glad it was helpful! Shooting at a higher frame rate and being aware of the fact that one needs to pan quite slow to avoid stuttering to avoid to much movement between frames is my best advice for handheld pans.
Great advice! Especially starting early and ending later. But I was having choppy results with 24fps, and this really helped me know specifically why I was having that issue.
omg, your technique hit me since the first trick! thank you very much. I keep shooting and thought it went well untill the post production and the panning always blur! your vid will save me from now on. BIG THANKS!
Just thinking out loud here, so haven't tested the following idea. In animation, when motion gets jittery, we add motion blur. Maybe by having a longer shutter speed, which would make motion more blurry could help counter jitters. Also motion blur in post could help mask a poor pan. Would be curious to test this out.
I have tried that and the jitters are reduced but the blur is very distracting. I plan my pans carefully and pan slowly, what I used to do in one sweeping pan I now break it up into 2,3 or more and sometimes repositioning slightly to avoid boring capture.
Thank you, I got my answer in the first 30 seconds which is rear on UA-cam, I was shooting 4k 25fps on a gimbal and I got the jumps. now I should slow down :D
Hi Geoff, first of all, thank you. That's usually referred to as "gimbal bounce" because of the Y-axis not being stabilized. The "easiest" way to get less of that bounce is to practice walking with slightly bent knees and gentle steps. This walking technique is often called "the ninja walk" and you should be able to find a couple of videos on this technique on yt. Good luck and happy practicing!
Or maybe I misunderstood your question and you're referring to sudden jumps done by the gimbal during horizontal movement? That's could be caused by either an incorrectly balanced camera, the mode used. And sometimes settings on the gimbal responsiveness. I usually set up my gimbals to have a slow response.
oooh, that's our little secret... JK Ridealong ;) There might be more usecases for this, but I use it to attach a counter weight when using heavier lenses on a gimbal. That camera the SL2 is the lightest DSLR ever made - which is great in most cases - except when it comes to balancing bigger lenses ;)
My trick for good panning, depending on the vibe you're going for, is shooting at 120 or 240 FPS slow motion so that you can move the camera quicker, which reduces the amount of stutters and jerks. Again, this is very dependent on what kind of video you're shooting, but it looks great.
Hi! That is the Crane Plus from zhiyun. I would recommend the Weebill S from that same company. It's more compact and will handle slightly higher payload for any future upgrades. But the smaller size is definitely the biggest reason to go with the weebill s
Is there a way to limit the amount of pan a tripod can do? I record hockey videos and would like a way to stop the pan when I get to the end of the rink.
It think some gimbal type heads have stops like that. Unsure about fluid heads. It may cause sudden stops unless it's dampened which may affect your movement at the end of the range?Sorry for not being able to provide a better answer.
Say i shoot at 50 fps (or even 60), but my tv only supports 24 fps, can video software remove the shudder when you transfer it from high fps to 24 fps or not? thinking hard wich setting to use when travelling.
You will have more flexibility to reducer judder if you shoot in a higher frame rate for sure. And you can pull that video down in editing to a lower frame rate. When it comes to interpolation on various screens I'm sadly no expert on this topic so I feel somewhat hesitant to give you advice. It is a small jungle with refresh rates, different regions PAL/NTSC and the standard framerates that also goes for these regions to match the current frequency 50hz (PAL) vs 60hz (NTSC) grids. Especially when traveling to a country with a different grid frequency than your native one and you want to reduce judder while also avoid flickering lights. Sorry I couldn't be of more help on this one.
@@thomasfransson I live in PAL zone so 25fps and 50fps. Pc screen is 60 fps but will become higher in future. OLED TV is 24fps unless i'm missing something. Thanks for answer, i think knowing that it gives more headroom is important, plus since you got half the time to pan, it might be smoother (handshake wise as 7 sec per frame can be tiring for wide pan.). I'm preparing for Swiss where some pans will be insanely amazing, don't wanna make mistakes :D
I’d also say, invest in a good video fluid head with levelling bowl on sticks, that has adjustable friction in the pan, and also adjustable counter-balance spring to balance your camera rig, make sure your camera + anything you rent weight category and tripod fluid head balance weight category match up. I skipped the cheap ones and got a used Sachtler ACE for my fully loaded A7 rig. It’s as smooth and stable as can be and I’ll never have to get another tripod for these size cameras. A good video tripod will last your whole career.
Also if you increase the shutter speed you typically will get smoother panning shot. Instead of using the 180 degree rule try to double or even triple that. Higher FPS can also help. I have had good results combining higher FPS with higher shutter speed.
I just got the solution to reduce the judder in vinci resolve i shoot in 24 fps and i finish the project in 60 fps and little change in edit video setup
Don't shoot at 24 FPS and you'll have smooth motion. 24 FPS does not divide evenly into a 60 Hz container (which is the refresh rate of most displays out there). At the very least, shoot at 30 FPS. Though, instead of judder, you'll get the double image effect. 60 FPS is the way to go. Any objections regarding it not being 'cinematic' aside, it won't have any panning issues. That's exactly why I use frame interpolation for *everything* that's not HFR. Clean and smooth motion across the board.
Experienced cinematographer here adding my two cents on top of what Thomas said in case you wanted to dig deeper.
There are two potential problems with panning quickly:
-The stuttering problem is caused by shooting in 24fps and showing at 30 frames per second. When you convert 24 to 30fps, you have to duplicate/blend frames in a process called 2:3 pulldown. This means that every few frames, the motion stops, then continues again. Moving super slow or super fast does not eliminate this problem, it just makes it less noticeable. You can notice this in his shot of his tripod panning around 0:18. If you go forward and back frame by frame by hitting the "," and "." buttons, you can see that sometimes, the silver panning control bar moves less between frames than others. Some TV's will try to artificially correct for this, but the effect looks really cheesy, computerized and fake.
-The other problem is strobing caused by a faster than needed shutter speed. If you are shooting at 24fps, your shutter speed should be 1/48th of a sec. If you are shooting at 30, your shutter speed should be at 1/60th of a second. If your shutter speed is too fast, then the time gap between taking one frame and the next is too large and we notice it more. It looks more like a flipbook than a movie.
The Rubber band is a great suggestion. I used to do that before I got a better tripod. The disadvantage is lack of control. A lot of less expensive tripods have a little wiggle before the resistance catches and often the resistance is inconsistent because instead of having a fluid resistance (like oil being forced through a tiny hole) it has a screw dragging on a piece of steel that gets worn through unevenly. A lot of less expensive tripod heads have pretty good fluid resistance for the tilt, but no fluid resistance for the pan.
By the way, the purpose of resistance is to even out the little micro-tremors your hand might have -everything from slight shake down to just your heartbeat. More resistance equals smoother move- especially if that resistance is accomplished through a fluid trying to squeeze through a tiny hole because it eases in and out as opposed to coming to a sudden stop/start. But the rubber band accomplishes very much the same effect - it starts off with very little pull, compensates for a lot of your micro hand gestures, and when you pull really hard, the elastic stretches, evening out your movement. But you just don't have as much control.
Tripods with proper fluid pan resistance can be expensive, and sometimes expense doesn't line up with quality, so I highly recommend that you try it out in person at a camera store before buying.
Sorry to blather on. Anyway, good video.
Oh, and one more problem with 24fps - 30fps thing. If you shoot 24fps, and stream at 24 fps, but the end user's monitor refreshes at 60fps, you still have stutter because 24 does not divide evenly into 60. Here is an example: ua-cam.com/video/5SSU-s0AUH0/v-deo.html if you go frame by frame, the shot looks fine. If you watch it on a monitor with a refresh rate that 24 doesn't evenly divide into, it is going to look a bit stuttery.
I've come to the conclusion that the only way I can get buttery smooth tilting/panning is via an expensive head/tripod. Impossible on the photo tripod I have even with a rubberband
@@spencersnygg9041 Great info but then why do movies look perfectly fine on our regular screens and phones at home? They are playing at 24 fps, aren’t they? And I’ve tried the rule of 180 (24 fps at 1/48) but still there’s jitter even if camera is fixed and the subject moves.
Learned more from your reply that the video.
Excellent feedback, thank you so much for sharing.
Also make sure that the video editing software is set to the same frame rate as the video was shot in, having double frames will also make the video judder/stutter.
Solid advice!
So that's mean if I shoot a pan in 60fps can't put it in a 30fps video?
Simple and to the point. Answered all my questions and explains why i been getting shudders when shooting at higher frame rate
Good information. Quick and to the point. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
None of these are tips on how to free hand it but definitely still helpful. Short and sweet, loved it
Glad it was helpful!
Shooting at a higher frame rate and being aware of the fact that one needs to pan quite slow to avoid stuttering to avoid to much movement between frames is my best advice for handheld pans.
Great explanation and tips. Thanks for the effort,
Such a simple video, but man you made my day with this. Thanks, I needed this video! 😅
Glad it helped!
Great advice. Thanky you
Great advice! Especially starting early and ending later. But I was having choppy results with 24fps, and this really helped me know specifically why I was having that issue.
Glad it helped!
Thanks Thomas. Very helpful information.
Thank you I'm glad it was helpful.
Smooth tips. Great video as usual, Thomas!
Thank you Jimmy
Really good tips, Thomas. Thanks for the great content!
very helpful, thank you
Glad to hear that!
Have a great day!
Good info!
Great video.
Thank you glad it was helpful
Great tips, thanks!
Thanks Thomas
omg, your technique hit me since the first trick! thank you very much. I keep shooting and thought it went well untill the post production and the panning always blur! your vid will save me from now on. BIG THANKS!
So happy you find the info. Good luck with your next projects
Great tips!
Thanks a lot for the useful tips...
Thank you
You're most welcome my friend
Just thinking out loud here, so haven't tested the following idea. In animation, when motion gets jittery, we add motion blur. Maybe by having a longer shutter speed, which would make motion more blurry could help counter jitters. Also motion blur in post could help mask a poor pan. Would be curious to test this out.
Sounds like a next experiment went on the list ;)
I have tried that and the jitters are reduced but the blur is very distracting. I plan my pans carefully and pan slowly, what I used to do in one sweeping pan I now break it up into 2,3 or more and sometimes repositioning slightly to avoid boring capture.
Great video again my friend!! Keep them coming!
Thank you!
Rubber band Win, Thanks Thomas
Tried and true! :D
Great tips! ❤ i was wondering how about verical shooting? 😂
Thanks, that's a great question. I can only assume the same rule of thumb will apply as a starting point.
Thank you, I got my answer in the first 30 seconds which is rear on UA-cam, I was shooting 4k 25fps on a gimbal and I got the jumps. now I should slow down :D
Haha true!
Good stuff.
So glad you found it helpful!
Great explanation! Any suggestions on how to avoid those jumps and shakes while walking/moving and using a gimble (DJI)? Thanks again.
Hi Geoff, first of all, thank you.
That's usually referred to as "gimbal bounce" because of the Y-axis not being stabilized. The "easiest" way to get less of that bounce is to practice walking with slightly bent knees and gentle steps.
This walking technique is often called "the ninja walk" and you should be able to find a couple of videos on this technique on yt.
Good luck and happy practicing!
Or maybe I misunderstood your question and you're referring to sudden jumps done by the gimbal during horizontal movement?
That's could be caused by either an incorrectly balanced camera, the mode used. And sometimes settings on the gimbal responsiveness. I usually set up my gimbals to have a slow response.
@@thomasfransson Thank you Thomas. I guess the same applies: move slowly and pan slowly?!?!
@@Stellifant if it's not the gimbal bounce caused by walking it's probably how your gimbal is setup. And/or what mode you are using. POV, PAN Follow
@@thomasfransson it's when I pan; I get juddering in the verticles/bright lights etc.
These tips should also work for tilting shots right ?
That's a good question! They probably will.
Hi mate I have seen a lot of photographers have velcro on the pace where the screen sits, and I have noticed you have it too, what does it do?
oooh, that's our little secret... JK Ridealong ;)
There might be more usecases for this, but I use it to attach a counter weight when using heavier lenses on a gimbal. That camera the SL2 is the lightest DSLR ever made - which is great in most cases - except when it comes to balancing bigger lenses ;)
Oh ok thanks! 🙂🙂
You're most welcome and thank you for asking the question.
Thank you!!! :)
My trick for good panning, depending on the vibe you're going for, is shooting at 120 or 240 FPS slow motion so that you can move the camera quicker, which reduces the amount of stutters and jerks. Again, this is very dependent on what kind of video you're shooting, but it looks great.
Absolutely, higher frame rates higher panning speed
Thanks for this Tom. What's the Gimble you use here pls? I'm looking for one for my SonyRX10-M3
Hi!
That is the Crane Plus from zhiyun. I would recommend the Weebill S from that same company. It's more compact and will handle slightly higher payload for any future upgrades. But the smaller size is definitely the biggest reason to go with the weebill s
Thanks Tom. Liked and Subscribed!
Is there a way to limit the amount of pan a tripod can do? I record hockey videos and would like a way to stop the pan when I get to the end of the rink.
It think some gimbal type heads have stops like that. Unsure about fluid heads. It may cause sudden stops unless it's dampened which may affect your movement at the end of the range?Sorry for not being able to provide a better answer.
at 2.20 of this video when you pan looks jerky is not so smooth .. how to avoid this ?? thank you
It's about panning speed and view angle.
And frame rate to some degree. I hope the video can explain it in more detail .
Why somtime PAN shots brings dizziness in video?
Because of judder
very pleasant man.
next time i turn off AF and stabilization.
Good luck on your next shoot
Say i shoot at 50 fps (or even 60), but my tv only supports 24 fps, can video software remove the shudder when you transfer it from high fps to 24 fps or not? thinking hard wich setting to use when travelling.
You will have more flexibility to reducer judder if you shoot in a higher frame rate for sure. And you can pull that video down in editing to a lower frame rate.
When it comes to interpolation on various screens I'm sadly no expert on this topic so I feel somewhat hesitant to give you advice.
It is a small jungle with refresh rates, different regions PAL/NTSC and the standard framerates that also goes for these regions to match the current frequency 50hz (PAL) vs 60hz (NTSC) grids. Especially when traveling to a country with a different grid frequency than your native one and you want to reduce judder while also avoid flickering lights.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help on this one.
@@thomasfransson I live in PAL zone so 25fps and 50fps. Pc screen is 60 fps but will become higher in future. OLED TV is 24fps unless i'm missing something. Thanks for answer, i think knowing that it gives more headroom is important, plus since you got half the time to pan, it might be smoother (handshake wise as 7 sec per frame can be tiring for wide pan.). I'm preparing for Swiss where some pans will be insanely amazing, don't wanna make mistakes :D
2:20 That Footage looks Jittery to me, i get a Headache watching it... i live in Germany and ive got an 60FPS Monitor.
That is correct.
I’d also say, invest in a good video fluid head with levelling bowl on sticks, that has adjustable friction in the pan, and also adjustable counter-balance spring to balance your camera rig, make sure your camera + anything you rent weight category and tripod fluid head balance weight category match up. I skipped the cheap ones and got a used Sachtler ACE for my fully loaded A7 rig. It’s as smooth and stable as can be and I’ll never have to get another tripod for these size cameras. A good video tripod will last your whole career.
Nice, a good tripod is always a great investment.
The only panning scene you show here (in a garden) has typical 24fps judder. Try 60fps instead.
Yes that panning is way faster than 7 seconds
@@thomasfransson Why not trying 60fps? At 60fps you would not have had judder at this panning speed. Why not trying?
Also if you increase the shutter speed you typically will get smoother panning shot. Instead of using the 180 degree rule try to double or even triple that. Higher FPS can also help. I have had good results combining higher FPS with higher shutter speed.
Good advice!
I just got the solution to reduce the judder in vinci resolve i shoot in 24 fps and i finish the project in 60 fps and little change in edit video setup
That's a great workaround if you don't have any slow mo shots.
Don't shoot at 24 FPS and you'll have smooth motion. 24 FPS does not divide evenly into a 60 Hz container (which is the refresh rate of most displays out there). At the very least, shoot at 30 FPS. Though, instead of judder, you'll get the double image effect. 60 FPS is the way to go. Any objections regarding it not being 'cinematic' aside, it won't have any panning issues. That's exactly why I use frame interpolation for *everything* that's not HFR. Clean and smooth motion across the board.
Yep, that's why I brought that up as the first point in the video.
explained in unick way
My experience after a year shooting video. STOP FREAKING PANNING....Ain't gonna find gold that way.
🤣
First 😋
Great tips!
Thank you!