It can be particularly dangerous to charge a lord into a crowd head on Proceeds to charge chariot Settra into 3 units of halberdiers and come out of encounter victorious SETTRA DOES NOT SERVE
Also "This is why missle units on walls in sieges can be very powerful" Meanwhile Dark Shards unit on walls is getting obliterated by rattling gunners firing from below
Questing Knights wouldn't tire so much if they didn't make their horses haul all their crap, but then again, grail knight's horses don't tire because they are used to carry all that stuff
@@brohvakiindova4452 not only skeleton spearmen, have you ever tried to capture a wall with grave guards if there are ironbreakers near? One volley of the special ammo and your unit literally loses half hp. And they're armored
Wood Elves should seriously be able to shoot through trees. It's just so weird that two of their most thematic strengths, the bonuses they gain from being in forests and their exceptional ranged infantry, are so counter productive.
I love charging cavalry into routing units. I had no idea it was that damn powerful, but Ive always done it. Makes sense I guess. Ima keep doing it lol
If we look back at older TW titles, it totally makes sense. In some games as soon as a unit routed and you charged cav into them, every model was an insta kill. Same with trying to capture enemies after the battle was already over. And then there was, iirc, Shogun 2 where even routed units could fight back and still get some kills, sometimes even your general. Cheeky bastards.
@RubiiX You're right my friend. But it was kind of a bamboozle that, after so many games where you just ran down the routing enemy, they'd finally start fighting back.
I think what you mean is “I don’t like the Imperial system”, which is an odd point to be making, seeing as the game doesn’t use it and I’ve never come across anyone using it in relation to the game either. Also, “imperceptive” doesn’t mean what you think it means and is meaningless in this context.
@Darthplagueis13 CA Being a British company makes it more surprising considering the UK and US are the only ones who use the Imperial system. (and the Warhammer tabletop uses the imperial system).
I wonder whether you actually look for these things or just think “hey, I wonder why that happens!” and look into it. Regardless it’s very impressive to find all of this! Edit: Wow those fatigue penalties are harsh!
And that's why ladders are pointless in siege, the climbing units get exhausted the moment they reach the top fighting against fresh units on the walls.
@@shigerufan1 It should 100% be heavily considered. But I have had good luck with running my low/mid teir front line units up the walls, then have my elite units wait around for the gate fight later nice and fresh. Esp with flying unit support/ranged support can easily take walls :).
You know that melee defence thing might explain why two dragons fighting with their back to each other seem to be exponentially better than one dragon fighting alone, in a crowd
No, but units firing uphill need to be closer than their max range to start firing. Also, ARCHERS uphill have more trouble shooting small units (like most heroes and lords on foot) than they would in a leveled ground, especially if they are moving, just because of how arrows and accuracy are programmed.
Also worth noting: archers and especially gun-infantry holding the high ground are far less likely to be obstructed by units in front of them if they're firing from a slope at units below them, compared to shooting on flat ground.
Since fatigue isn't all that bad and having the high ground is supreme I say it IS worth running up a small hill at the start to get that battlewinning position.
Knew of them in spirit, but the exact numbers are actually shocking! Fighting uphill used to be considered "non-ideal", but with this stuff in mind it's just straight up "bad".
I wish the units had special formations. Like if the shield units could go into shieldwall for example and get increased range defence. And or spear men to brace spears to increase defence and damage to charging units. Or archers for rapid fire but have lower accuracy long range. Stuff like that would be absolutely amazing I feel.
reminds me of the classic 'yari-wall' from Shogun 2... something which makes the most basic unit in the game somehow one of the most powerful simply by putting their spears in front of them.
I think I only knew about the fatigue. A lot of interesting and good to know stuff! I thought strider was absolutely a fluff skill letting you move a bit faster, but it does more than that and that's really cool.
Thats because they exceed most cavalry in quantity and speed. You do shit tons of damage with any unit while chasing, so fast and numerous units like war doggos are optimal
Their animations play a big role. Cavalry has a tendency to stop briefly when they are attacking a routing unit, doggos keep running because they simply jump on them and keep going
Against Vamp Counts and Tomb Kings it can work pretty well, any unit they can actually get up onto walls tends to not trade well vs. the units other factions can use.
I always wondered why attacking from behind is so important. If unit has v.high leadership (see U dwarfes) or is unbreakable it doesn't make much difference. Now with the information about MD penalty it makes a lot of sense. Same with routing units. This game is so much deeper then it looks like at the first sight. I love it.
Another mechanism for units hiding in forests. Sometimes what look like a dense forest don’t hide your troops while the same unit standing in what appears to be open ground in chaos wasteland gets the forest hiding effect. That is because vegetation has nothing to do with hiding, but rather the area of map that is marked as “forest”. That’s why some forest don’t give hiding effect, really frustrating somethings when you want to do some sneaky ambush on your enemies.
Thanks for the tips ! Having the actual numbers helps a lot. Strider and Unspottable are very strong IMO. Yes indeed warhounds are so good to pursue fleeing enemies, I like to use light flying units for that as well like harpies or bats which are somehow the flying equivalent of warhounds.
does the elevation bonus for missile also affect flying missile units like Hawk Riders? Do they have a permanent hidden buff to their damage just because they are always above their targets?
Or maybe if they fly over a hill, and shoot at enemies on the flatland, they get the same buff as for units on the ground. “I have the elevated airspace, Anakin! Don’t try it!”
I used to only look for choke points, and try and force clumps. This information about elevation advantage and charging broken units has really changed how i approach combat. And i honestly thought exhaustion only affected movement speed and attack speed. This was so illuminating.
Another important mechanic that many people don't know is that when you apply "causes terror" to a unit, it also makes them immune to terror too. This can be very useful for stopping a unit from terror routing, as applying "causes terror" will, as I said, make them immune to terror in the process! Very handy in both multiplayer and campaign.
I have to say Thank you very much for sharing your TWW-Knowledge and Experience! I searched nearly the whole Internet for the answer to the question of when sneaking units are discovered, i found nothing. Thank you so much you answered it :)
As usual, Zerkovich brings real quality stuff on youtube so I can continue my slaughter of Ulthuan from a different perspective. Today is the turn for Sisters of Twilight to recover the forest from them. Tomorrow, some skaven tunnels will poop thousends of rat-things on their rainbow-colored island. Yesterday, Big Daddy Grom did... well. You can imagine what he did there.
I keep that video registered in my playlist (and the others u made as well). Very useful, and overall CA did a good job, it’s realistic and very sensed. Thx for the infos, keep it up if u have more 👍
Yeah you get like 110% MA and 120% MD. The WE rangers also get immune to psych I think and +12 AL. Now if you meant strider. They go through the trees. They are not hindered by trees.
Exactly why hammer and anvil is so devastating. Just started my first Bretonia campaign. So much fun. I love charging my peasant front line directly into the enemy's face and not caring because it almost always tangles them up and then my Knights come in and destroy.
Another thing people might now know is if you can disrupt a units formation they suffer heavy combat and leadership penalties as well. That's what makes bretonnian cav a lot better than any other cav because their special formation makes it super easy to disrupt enemy unit formation. But it can also be done with spells and large monsters as well.
5:00: Oh really. Wow that changes a lot. Two points based on that: 1. Light cavalry with a high charge bonus is way more useful than I thought. 2. Those lord skills that increase charge bonus are way more useful than I thought.
To a point. You have to remember that at some point your chance to hit can't go any higher, so all it can do is add damage. Paying 2 skill points to add 30 damage when chasing a unit isn't very cost effective.
I still dont know how charging works, does it only effect the charging animation or for a bit afterwards, does it multiply base damage, or does it add a flat amount, is that amount armour piercing or not, this stuff is kinda important
@@SuperThest Yeah, but light cavalry has a low charge bonus, so hitting that point is practically impossible... and two skill points to add 30 damage is pretty damned good, considering that it was probably pretty low before that, and since it's almost always hitting, it's effectively MORE damage than just 30. But the real point of this fact is to change moderate, or even weenie light cav into reapers.
On the melee defense reduction, I wonder if when you have a unit engaged, if you see you are going to be attacked from the rear, if it would be better to give that unit the order to get into a column formation. That way, less models hit on their rear, more on flank, giving it a better chance.
@@SuperThest well, you are still engaged at the front; I mean as in trying to minimize the number of troops that have their backs to the enemy. On previous total war titles, it was not applied to every single unit model, and now it can create that extra idea
i'd previously assumed that the only benefits to charging an enemy unit in the flank/rear was the morale hit and the fact that you now have more of your units in the fight… so thanks for clearing that up! i'll now be much more careful about leaving my heroes/lords in melee with enemies who have high weapon damage (regardless of their attack bonus) Similarly, i used to think that units pursuing fleeing enemies simply got free hits (but at normal, base damage). now i won't neglect those charge bonus upgrade skills for my assassins!
I never knew about the melee hill damage bonus! I've always been intentionally fighting enemies from the lower ground in order to give my missile troops an easier time hitting the enemy. xD
The exception to high ground unless it's sieges is if you have gunners that will perform better shooting uphill than downhill where they easily get no line of sight because of their own units blocking them.and uphill usually have los on more units.
You didn't mention the sneaky penalty large units (cavalry etc.) get in the forest. Best way to get rid of Bretonnia? Lure them into the woods :) They get 20% less attack and defense and the trees will break their charge (unless they have strider). While we are talking about forests, the trees can block a lot of missiles if you put your archers let's say just along the treeline they can shoot out just fine but way less projectiles will reach them. Most of these (flanking bonuses, charge/pursue mechanics, elevation bonuses, even the hiding, missile penalty and cavalry penalty in forests) have been in the game in some form since Shogun I or Medieval I at the latest :) And they are really intuitive too, so if you know at least something about tactics, you'll do just fine :)
Fatigue might convert into taking some more damage later or it might not, and your unit can recover energy. Damage happening is always damage and can only be recovered by regeneration or life magic (and lost units broadly speaking can’t be recovered, unless you’re talking about VC). I say, spend energy to avoid damage. Run up a hill if you’re taking fire.
That pursuit bonus... It's all well and good but my experience with lords/heros pursuing enemy lords/heroes is that the pursuer only pushes the pursued in front of them not triggering the hit animation (mostly applies if the pursuer is on small ground mount and enemy is on foot). Thus no damage done... It's just annoying.
This kind of thing happens in a lot of games like this. A unit will stop still to initiate its attack animation only for the fleeing unit to escape out of attack range. Frustrating beyond belief. Plus the whole pushing a unit away from them deal, if you're attacking a fleeing unit i find it far more productive to run past it and attack from an angle so you're not just helping shove it off the map.
I was under the impression that there was an armor penalty on side/rear attacks as well as a MD penalty. You can see it when shooting something high armor in the back with goblin archers, as they seem to do real damage that way as opposed to the 1 point of AP per arrow. I read this in one of the TWW1 mechanic threads back when, but finding confirmation is hard.
I thought it’s more to do with shielded units have x percentage of blocking missiles in direction their facing. So if you’re behind them and they’re facing the other way they have no way to block it. At least in the other total wars. I’m new to warhammer
@@mannyfresh7065 It is more than that, since the same thing happens on unshielded units. I've asked in the Reddit Q&A thread and been told 'yes, this happens' but nobody knows where it was tested.
Charging downhill workls best when a unit is already at half strength or will likely rout, otherwise to turn around and withdraw for a 2nd cycle charge is even more difficult and tires the unit that charged quite a bit. The thing with ranged units on walls makes sense but in most of the tests I've done does not seem to match the -30% damage, I think something in the LoS or perhaps the way distance calibration is applied to units on walls makes them take more damage than they give. Test two identical units and the one on the walls definitely takes a bit less damage but it appears closer to -10% in all the tests I did. When you add in the accuracy bonus from XP and the unit shooting up is only 50% of max range from the walls it actually does more damage than the unit on the walls, maybe arcs are interefering?
Fun fact. Chasing down people who were already routing was the main role of cavalry in real life. A rout was when the majority of casualties were suffered.
Eh it was one of its key roles, I wouldn’t say “the main”, unless you are talking about ancient Roman Equites light cavalry but even then they also attacked enemy archers. Later heavier cavalry had analogous roles to tanks as elite shock units designed to break through enemy lines and cause routes.
@@briancline7349 i thought medieval knights were only deadly if their enemies broke and ran just right before the moment of contact? When the infantry actually stood their ground (like in the battle of the Golden Spurs, Bannockburn, and pretty much every battle involved the Swiss), the knights suffered horribly..
@@oldrabbit8290 depends on what the infantry was armed with. Heavy cab charging spears are not gonna have a good time, even with a downhill charge. Heavy cab charging swordsman are gonna smash through with much less casualties 🤷🏼♂️ it’s all dependent on context lol
I knew like half of theses things, but you get me interested. I’ll try it out. And am I the only one to hear JoJo music when he talks about chariot? Maybe .. not ..?
Huh. I noticed that fleeing enemies tended to die faster, but I thought that was just because attacks couldn't miss on a dice role, that every attack that connected would deal damage.
Maybe they could use that flank/rear malus for even more depth in future games by making certain unis (spear n' shield) more vulnerable against it than others (dual wielding handweapons). This would make certain units better for the loose melee that occurs in later stages of combat.
16:10 Vermintide 2 tought me otherwise. Fighting downhill on stairs is a deathsentance. Attacks are comming from POV of enemies and yours, so standing and fighting downhill means you have less range while enemies can smash your toes. Same is with darktide which is funny. They never got around fixing this
I guess the first one with melee defence just makes running down fleeing units easier. I don't think it should be on certain units though like arty or a steam tank or really big units. A 4x4 bit of wood isn't weaker if it's facing away from you.
The steam tank only loses 7 melee defence when attacked in the rear. Against an enemy with melee attack of 50 that means hit percentage goes from 70% to 77%. A 10% damage increase. Attack of 15 gets a 20% damage increase (35% to 42%). Contrast that with attack 75 hitting defence 100. That goes from a 5% hit chance to a 95% hit chance when attacking in the rear; an 1800% damage increase. This mechanic punishes high MD units far more than low ones. Steam tank is defended by high armour and health instead, so it already doesn't affect them much.
should have noted in this video that ranged units on walls have a significant disadvantage because they seem to have a significant reduction in volume of fire, and the ramparts do more to obstruct them than to protect them( not counting the ones over the gate which do both nearly 100%), and while i have seen the ai do it i have never been able to have my ranged units fire at units to their left and right on the walls and have a significantly difficult time having them shoot down at the inside at any kind of angle.
Historical battles show that most casualties occur after a unit breaks. It's one of the reasons that Alexander the great had such low casualties. Heck, Kipling wrote about it. "Remember, it's ruin to run. "
Given the melee defence reduction from behind, does that basically mean that monsters that have a rear attach animation are weaker as they won’t turn around as they can keep attacking that way round so will get hit more.
9:20-9:30 you should do your very best to make them come down, the way to do that is just send a mounted (arch)mage to start casting damage spells on them. As I only like to play with the Empire and the Asur in campaign, it's easy to do. I almost always force the enemy to come to me and fight me in my position.
I didn't know the fatigue and high ground values, but the game isn't exactly secretive about them existing. I also figured there would be something with flanking, but nice to know the rules now.
BTW if units use ladders they will also use lot of their fatigue, jumping down to very tired, so better to use towers where they can also get their charge bonus.
@12:23 - anyone else really upset to see those waywatchers on the left just wasting their precious ammunition on a tree? 😭 That was a super-informative video! I wasn’t aware of half that stuff, like the stealth rules and the high ground damage bonuses and charge pursuit! Awesome demystification!
I wanted to know if they kept the shield mechanic from medieval 2 and before. Like, if you hit a unit with shield from the side that does not have the shield or from the back, do they still have the %bonus? Or no shield bonus?
If you're talking about shooting the back and sides of units then the mechanic still works how it works in Medieval 2. If you shoot the back or sides of a unit with a shield it doesn't get the shield bonus.
Mouse over the shield icon on the unit card to read the explanation. It states ranged attacks from the frontal arc get bocked by bronze/ silver/ gold percentage. The extra melee defence from the shield is counted on all sides (but modified by the flank/ rear attack like Zerk said. Its realistic too. Imagine a soldier getting attacked from the front, raising his shield to protect his head from an angry chaos troll mace. When an orc tries to cave in his skull from the back, that raised shield will get in the way of his choppa' as well. Not as effective, because blow from unexpected angle and not fully over his head, but the blow MIGHT slide off to the side. The soldier, noticing movement, might even hold his shield behind his back if there is not a direct threat in front of him. LARP battles teach us many things 😁
There is no shield armor mechanics in this game . Although if there is such mechanics, defensive play style would be encouraged and we would see less interesting and entertaining battles
So the most lethal damage a unit can do is by; 1; Being fresh 2; Pursuing 3; Hitting the back (2 and 3 are a bit of a loop) 4; Having the best high-to-low ground advantage. 5; Enemy being exhausted 6; Some anti-large or anti-infantry as well as armor piercing, I guess. I'd like to know how overpowered such a specific buff would be lol.
It can be particularly dangerous to charge a lord into a crowd head on
Proceeds to charge chariot Settra into 3 units of halberdiers and come out of encounter victorious
SETTRA DOES NOT SERVE
SETTRA RULES
Also
"This is why missle units on walls in sieges can be very powerful"
Meanwhile Dark Shards unit on walls is getting obliterated by rattling gunners firing from below
yet plenty of units seem to get served by settra...
Charoits
@@piotr7805 Dark shards? more like dark shits.
-talking about getting stabbed from behind
-showing manfred the backstabber getting backstabbed by the snikch
-Balthasar Gelt approves this
12:30
Those 4 elves on the far left are sure professional archers, shooting the tree in front of them with perfect accuracy
That looks super derp xD
Especially WOOD elves. They should really change that for them, so they fire through trees.
@@MrMinnimonster Perhaps even from UP in the trees!!!
@@IFY0USEEKAY ah yess vietnam vibes
Peru Perry *recruits hellstorm rocket batteries*
Questing Knights wouldn't tire so much if they didn't make their horses haul all their crap, but then again, grail knight's horses don't tire because they are used to carry all that stuff
and blessed by a goddess.
☹️☹️
I've been asking how stalk works on forums for a year now and never got any answers. Thank god for this video!
most of this information is available right from the game, you just gotta be more observant.
LMAO this has a totally different meaning out of context.
@@donut_kingdom lol ur right
That better be Sigmar you're thanking..
@Bill Soon Does running ruins stalk and unspottable?
So basically if your unit is exhausted and gets rear-charged from uphill by a previously unseen threat, you're screwed.
Squad broken intensifies.
also your skeleton spearmen die really fast if you let them get showered in irondrake flamethrowers, who would've guessed? :o
@@brohvakiindova4452 not only skeleton spearmen, have you ever tried to capture a wall with grave guards if there are ironbreakers near? One volley of the special ammo and your unit literally loses half hp. And they're armored
*Hammer and anvil intensifies*
I'm pretty sure, at that point, your unit will just automatically explode into a cloud of red mist
Watching those Woodelves shooting the tree right in front of them making me cry internally.
Poor tree.
It's friendly fire I suppose.
Also externally. Look how they massacred my boys.
Wood Elves should seriously be able to shoot through trees. It's just so weird that two of their most thematic strengths, the bonuses they gain from being in forests and their exceptional ranged infantry, are so counter productive.
@@Zerkovich Have you explained how Skaven discoverability works in one of your videos yet? That's helpful to understand, and poorly explained in game.
I'm always taken aback by How cute demigryphs are, such cuddly killing machines.
Massive cute war quails.
They are simlpy magnificent a real upgrade from the Reiksguards, who themselves aren't bad.
Wow, that predatory senses thing with the Lizardmen is VERY cool.
I wish they made things like that more clear ingame.
I always wondered whether the high ground helped beyond the morale buff, thanks a lot for your videos, they're always concise and informative!
The high ground always matters my young padawan, may the force be with you. ;)
I love charging cavalry into routing units. I had no idea it was that damn powerful, but Ive always done it. Makes sense I guess. Ima keep doing it lol
If we look back at older TW titles, it totally makes sense. In some games as soon as a unit routed and you charged cav into them, every model was an insta kill. Same with trying to capture enemies after the battle was already over.
And then there was, iirc, Shogun 2 where even routed units could fight back and still get some kills, sometimes even your general. Cheeky bastards.
@RubiiX You're right my friend.
But it was kind of a bamboozle that, after so many games where you just ran down the routing enemy, they'd finally start fighting back.
This is amaziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing!!! You are the Spirit of Law for Total War Warhammer 2!
i wonder if flying units have a bigger detection range, would make sense
Lizardman have really high detection ranges so I can only imagine terradon riders
NVM he already talked about lizardman xD
they do , i also dont think you are able to get a charge bonus in the sky
I think they even see through hiding in the forest, p much always the flying units spot me if I try it .
Yes
As someone who uses meters, I was quite pleased to hear the usage of those measurements instead of the other imperceptive scales.
damn donuts per bald eagles
Meters are in fact the unit that is used in the game, probably because CA is a british developer company.
I think what you mean is “I don’t like the Imperial system”, which is an odd point to be making, seeing as the game doesn’t use it and I’ve never come across anyone using it in relation to the game either. Also, “imperceptive” doesn’t mean what you think it means and is meaningless in this context.
True
@Darthplagueis13 CA Being a British company makes it more surprising considering the UK and US are the only ones who use the Imperial system. (and the Warhammer tabletop uses the imperial system).
I wonder whether you actually look for these things or just think “hey, I wonder why that happens!” and look into it. Regardless it’s very impressive to find all of this!
Edit: Wow those fatigue penalties are harsh!
many hidden statwere like little myth spread around the community
Oooooh interesting!
Or just search twwstats.com it shows pretty much everything.
And that's why ladders are pointless in siege, the climbing units get exhausted the moment they reach the top fighting against fresh units on the walls.
@@shigerufan1 It should 100% be heavily considered. But I have had good luck with running my low/mid teir front line units up the walls, then have my elite units wait around for the gate fight later nice and fresh. Esp with flying unit support/ranged support can easily take walls :).
You know that melee defence thing might explain why two dragons fighting with their back to each other seem to be exponentially better than one dragon fighting alone, in a crowd
No range bonus for missile units on elevated groud? Disappointing.
Think there is an accuracy bonus but do not quote me.
@@thestormtrooperwhocanaim496 Is that the only way youre able to aim?
@@dakota3347 higher odds of arrows hitting the target from up above
No, but units firing uphill need to be closer than their max range to start firing.
Also, ARCHERS uphill have more trouble shooting small units (like most heroes and lords on foot) than they would in a leveled ground, especially if they are moving, just because of how arrows and accuracy are programmed.
Also worth noting: archers and especially gun-infantry holding the high ground are far less likely to be obstructed by units in front of them if they're firing from a slope at units below them, compared to shooting on flat ground.
nice, did not know about the chase bonus, definitely makes having a cheap fast unit around to chase down things way more appealing
The only thing warhounds are good for. Largely useless in the actual battle, but they are very fast and excellent pursuers
it was very apparent to me with Elyrian Reavers on my first ever TW:WH2 playtrough.
Since fatigue isn't all that bad and having the high ground is supreme I say it IS worth running up a small hill at the start to get that battlewinning position.
Knew of them in spirit, but the exact numbers are actually shocking! Fighting uphill used to be considered "non-ideal", but with this stuff in mind it's just straight up "bad".
I wish the units had special formations. Like if the shield units could go into shieldwall for example and get increased range defence. And or spear men to brace spears to increase defence and damage to charging units. Or archers for rapid fire but have lower accuracy long range. Stuff like that would be absolutely amazing I feel.
reminds me of the classic 'yari-wall' from Shogun 2... something which makes the most basic unit in the game somehow one of the most powerful simply by putting their spears in front of them.
I think I only knew about the fatigue. A lot of interesting and good to know stuff! I thought strider was absolutely a fluff skill letting you move a bit faster, but it does more than that and that's really cool.
Almost 500 hours into the game and there were definitely some things I didn't know yet. Thanks!
Ah yes the Empire Captain, fine gentlemen and the FINEST OF BEARDS I SAY.
That's going in the book!
That's some umgi bullshit if I ever heard it.
They may have great beards, but they dont have long beards!
@@FlyingFox86 gEt ThE bOoK
nobody cares about your shitty cringy book
Half beard half skin it's an abomination
I always see war doggies outperforming cav when chasing fleeing enemies.
Thats because they exceed most cavalry in quantity and speed. You do shit tons of damage with any unit while chasing, so fast and numerous units like war doggos are optimal
Me 2
Their animations play a big role. Cavalry has a tendency to stop briefly when they are attacking a routing unit, doggos keep running because they simply jump on them and keep going
Calvary is a large unit that kept knocking down infantry and doggos are infantry and they don’t knock down.
Firing from a wall elevation also blocks line of sight for models in the rear, so not the whole unit can fire. Which results in less damage.
7:55
I agree with all debuffs, but how can fatigue affect armor? Unless the unit specifically dropped some of its armor 😁
You are no longer blocking as effectively, and a persons posture can affect the effectiveness of ones armor.
Thanks for this. Just started playing this game recently and stuff like this is so helpful.
Nice video, picked up a couple of things.
Holding the wall is still worse than holding the city choke points in most, if not all cases.
Against Vamp Counts and Tomb Kings it can work pretty well, any unit they can actually get up onto walls tends to not trade well vs. the units other factions can use.
"not a lot but it will matter when you have a lot of trees suddenly appearing, about to smash your skull off"
*Saurman and uruk-hai nod in agreement*
I always wondered why attacking from behind is so important. If unit has v.high leadership (see U dwarfes) or is unbreakable it doesn't make much difference. Now with the information about MD penalty it makes a lot of sense. Same with routing units. This game is so much deeper then it looks like at the first sight. I love it.
Another mechanism for units hiding in forests. Sometimes what look like a dense forest don’t hide your troops while the same unit standing in what appears to be open ground in chaos wasteland gets the forest hiding effect. That is because vegetation has nothing to do with hiding, but rather the area of map that is marked as “forest”. That’s why some forest don’t give hiding effect, really frustrating somethings when you want to do some sneaky ambush on your enemies.
Also an important thing about stalk that it has an increased detection range on snow/desert maps.
This video is so useful. I did not know in details any of them here. Thank you so much and keep it up.
Since using Eshin rats i've been wondering what the detection range was. Glad your video let me know. Didn't realise Concealment bombs were that good
4:41 Thank you so much for discussing exactly how the charge bonus works in-game. I've been wondering this forever !
Thanks for the tips ! Having the actual numbers helps a lot. Strider and Unspottable are very strong IMO.
Yes indeed warhounds are so good to pursue fleeing enemies, I like to use light flying units for that as well like harpies or bats which are somehow the flying equivalent of warhounds.
So between the hiding distance and the new Woodsman trait, looks like Wood Elf units are suddenly more deadly than ever when in the forest.
But it's still an archer heavy faction so fighting in the woods still sucks.
does the elevation bonus for missile also affect flying missile units like Hawk Riders? Do they have a permanent hidden buff to their damage just because they are always above their targets?
Or maybe if they fly over a hill, and shoot at enemies on the flatland, they get the same buff as for units on the ground.
“I have the elevated airspace, Anakin! Don’t try it!”
Doesn’t matter cause Hawk Riders are shit. Generally speaking flying missile units aren’t worth their cost since they have way to low entity numbers.
A very interesting question, one that I'd like to know the answer to.
one of the best videos about total war warhammer 2, really. probably the most useful one I have ever seen.
I used to only look for choke points, and try and force clumps. This information about elevation advantage and charging broken units has really changed how i approach combat. And i honestly thought exhaustion only affected movement speed and attack speed. This was so illuminating.
Another important mechanic that many people don't know is that when you apply "causes terror" to a unit, it also makes them immune to terror too.
This can be very useful for stopping a unit from terror routing, as applying "causes terror" will, as I said, make them immune to terror in the process! Very handy in both multiplayer and campaign.
I mean it says that pretty clearly in the trait itself, it's hardly a hidden stat.
@@spikertaker Let's calll it "often overlooked mechanic" then.
It's stated in the trait description..
Impressive!
I've got 3000h in game and still learnt so much from this. Awesome job! Tanks
16:53 AND THE VAMPIRE KNIGHTS ARRIVED! COMING DOWN THE MOUNTAINSIDE!
AND THE VAMPIRE KNIGHTS ARRIVED! RUNNING DOWN THE VERMINTIDE!
This info is so influential and so hard to find online, TYVM for your guides!
Stalk mechanics are the greatest 'guide part' for me. Thank you man!
Thank you so much for these types of videos, very helpful and enjoyable
Another stat you missed is the "on high ground" leadership bonus of 10
Great vid thanks. Never knew the numbers were so brutal for fatigue or charges from the sides / rear.
These are fantastic! Thanks so much, Zerkovich! I forwarded this video to a few of my TW:W2 friends.
I have to say Thank you very much for sharing your TWW-Knowledge and Experience!
I searched nearly the whole Internet for the answer to the question of when sneaking units are discovered, i found nothing.
Thank you so much you answered it :)
As usual, Zerkovich brings real quality stuff on youtube so I can continue my slaughter of Ulthuan from a different perspective.
Today is the turn for Sisters of Twilight to recover the forest from them. Tomorrow, some skaven tunnels will poop thousends of rat-things on their rainbow-colored island. Yesterday, Big Daddy Grom did... well. You can imagine what he did there.
you are the scientist behind warhammer stats and mechanics. I love you.
I keep that video registered in my playlist (and the others u made as well).
Very useful, and overall CA did a good job, it’s realistic and very sensed.
Thx for the infos, keep it up if u have more 👍
Great video. It would be interesting to see which is better, walking under fire or running under fire
@zerkovich
Could u explain how "forest stalker" works ? It gives melee defense and others bonus but we don't know how exactly ?
When you in the forest- you can see if this perk is active or not in your unit card.
Yeah you get like 110% MA and 120% MD. The WE rangers also get immune to psych I think and +12 AL.
Now if you meant strider. They go through the trees. They are not hindered by trees.
a very educative video I didn't know that high ground can boost so much. I'm going to pay more attention to the terrain then
Exactly why hammer and anvil is so devastating. Just started my first Bretonia campaign. So much fun. I love charging my peasant front line directly into the enemy's face and not caring because it almost always tangles them up and then my Knights come in and destroy.
Tyvm, I have been looking for spotting range data forever.
Another thing people might now know is if you can disrupt a units formation they suffer heavy combat and leadership penalties as well. That's what makes bretonnian cav a lot better than any other cav because their special formation makes it super easy to disrupt enemy unit formation. But it can also be done with spells and large monsters as well.
5:00: Oh really. Wow that changes a lot. Two points based on that:
1. Light cavalry with a high charge bonus is way more useful than I thought.
2. Those lord skills that increase charge bonus are way more useful than I thought.
To a point. You have to remember that at some point your chance to hit can't go any higher, so all it can do is add damage. Paying 2 skill points to add 30 damage when chasing a unit isn't very cost effective.
I still dont know how charging works, does it only effect the charging animation or for a bit afterwards, does it multiply base damage, or does it add a flat amount, is that amount armour piercing or not, this stuff is kinda important
@@PropheticShadeZ ua-cam.com/video/ucNR48l5j8M/v-deo.html
this is about charge prevention but he starts off by detailing charge bonus mechanics
@@SuperThest Yeah, but light cavalry has a low charge bonus, so hitting that point is practically impossible... and two skill points to add 30 damage is pretty damned good, considering that it was probably pretty low before that, and since it's almost always hitting, it's effectively MORE damage than just 30.
But the real point of this fact is to change moderate, or even weenie light cav into reapers.
On the melee defense reduction, I wonder if when you have a unit engaged, if you see you are going to be attacked from the rear, if it would be better to give that unit the order to get into a column formation. That way, less models hit on their rear, more on flank, giving it a better chance.
what about a reverse charge
If you time to do that then you would be better off just rotating the unit
@@SuperThest well, you are still engaged at the front; I mean as in trying to minimize the number of troops that have their backs to the enemy. On previous total war titles, it was not applied to every single unit model, and now it can create that extra idea
i'd previously assumed that the only benefits to charging an enemy unit in the flank/rear was the morale hit and the fact that you now have more of your units in the fight… so thanks for clearing that up! i'll now be much more careful about leaving my heroes/lords in melee with enemies who have high weapon damage (regardless of their attack bonus)
Similarly, i used to think that units pursuing fleeing enemies simply got free hits (but at normal, base damage). now i won't neglect those charge bonus upgrade skills for my assassins!
200hrs in TWW2.. and I didn't know most of these. Good informative stuff!
I never knew about the melee hill damage bonus! I've always been intentionally fighting enemies from the lower ground in order to give my missile troops an easier time hitting the enemy. xD
The exception to high ground unless it's sieges is if you have gunners that will perform better shooting uphill than downhill where they easily get no line of sight because of their own units blocking them.and uphill usually have los on more units.
Thanks zerk. Didnt know about mele def from behind.
You didn't mention the sneaky penalty large units (cavalry etc.) get in the forest. Best way to get rid of Bretonnia? Lure them into the woods :) They get 20% less attack and defense and the trees will break their charge (unless they have strider). While we are talking about forests, the trees can block a lot of missiles if you put your archers let's say just along the treeline they can shoot out just fine but way less projectiles will reach them.
Most of these (flanking bonuses, charge/pursue mechanics, elevation bonuses, even the hiding, missile penalty and cavalry penalty in forests) have been in the game in some form since Shogun I or Medieval I at the latest :)
And they are really intuitive too, so if you know at least something about tactics, you'll do just fine :)
Fatigue might convert into taking some more damage later or it might not, and your unit can recover energy.
Damage happening is always damage and can only be recovered by regeneration or life magic (and lost units broadly speaking can’t be recovered, unless you’re talking about VC).
I say, spend energy to avoid damage. Run up a hill if you’re taking fire.
Warhounds' small size and short animations makes them more efficient at finishing of routing units than they seem to be on paper.
Great content as always Zerk! Been playing the game for years and still learn new things from your videos. Keep it up man
That pursuit bonus... It's all well and good but my experience with lords/heros pursuing enemy lords/heroes is that the pursuer only pushes the pursued in front of them not triggering the hit animation (mostly applies if the pursuer is on small ground mount and enemy is on foot). Thus no damage done...
It's just annoying.
because lords properly lvld are ridicoulus
This kind of thing happens in a lot of games like this. A unit will stop still to initiate its attack animation only for the fleeing unit to escape out of attack range. Frustrating beyond belief. Plus the whole pushing a unit away from them deal, if you're attacking a fleeing unit i find it far more productive to run past it and attack from an angle so you're not just helping shove it off the map.
I did know that you have less MD in back and side but didnt knew the real modifier ! -70 is so huge haha ! Very good video anyways :)
I was under the impression that there was an armor penalty on side/rear attacks as well as a MD penalty. You can see it when shooting something high armor in the back with goblin archers, as they seem to do real damage that way as opposed to the 1 point of AP per arrow. I read this in one of the TWW1 mechanic threads back when, but finding confirmation is hard.
I thought it’s more to do with shielded units have x percentage of blocking missiles in direction their facing. So if you’re behind them and they’re facing the other way they have no way to block it. At least in the other total wars. I’m new to warhammer
@@mannyfresh7065 It is more than that, since the same thing happens on unshielded units. I've asked in the Reddit Q&A thread and been told 'yes, this happens' but nobody knows where it was tested.
Troy Schofield no shit. Good to know!
Charging downhill workls best when a unit is already at half strength or will likely rout, otherwise to turn around and withdraw for a 2nd cycle charge is even more difficult and tires the unit that charged quite a bit.
The thing with ranged units on walls makes sense but in most of the tests I've done does not seem to match the -30% damage, I think something in the LoS or perhaps the way distance calibration is applied to units on walls makes them take more damage than they give. Test two identical units and the one on the walls definitely takes a bit less damage but it appears closer to -10% in all the tests I did. When you add in the accuracy bonus from XP and the unit shooting up is only 50% of max range from the walls it actually does more damage than the unit on the walls, maybe arcs are interefering?
Fun fact. Chasing down people who were already routing was the main role of cavalry in real life. A rout was when the majority of casualties were suffered.
Cavalrys purpose evolved as its use grew. Cavalry is the amorphous role that fills in the gaps of an army
Eh it was one of its key roles, I wouldn’t say “the main”, unless you are talking about ancient Roman Equites light cavalry but even then they also attacked enemy archers. Later heavier cavalry had analogous roles to tanks as elite shock units designed to break through enemy lines and cause routes.
fun, but false
@@briancline7349 i thought medieval knights were only deadly if their enemies broke and ran just right before the moment of contact? When the infantry actually stood their ground (like in the battle of the Golden Spurs, Bannockburn, and pretty much every battle involved the Swiss), the knights suffered horribly..
@@oldrabbit8290 depends on what the infantry was armed with. Heavy cab charging spears are not gonna have a good time, even with a downhill charge. Heavy cab charging swordsman are gonna smash through with much less casualties 🤷🏼♂️ it’s all dependent on context lol
I knew like half of theses things, but you get me interested. I’ll try it out. And am I the only one to hear JoJo music when he talks about chariot? Maybe .. not ..?
Huh. I noticed that fleeing enemies tended to die faster, but I thought that was just because attacks couldn't miss on a dice role, that every attack that connected would deal damage.
Maybe they could use that flank/rear malus for even more depth in future games by making certain unis (spear n' shield) more vulnerable against it than others (dual wielding handweapons). This would make certain units better for the loose melee that occurs in later stages of combat.
16:10
Vermintide 2 tought me otherwise. Fighting downhill on stairs is a deathsentance.
Attacks are comming from POV of enemies and yours, so standing and fighting downhill means you have less range while enemies can smash your toes.
Same is with darktide which is funny. They never got around fixing this
I guess the first one with melee defence just makes running down fleeing units easier. I don't think it should be on certain units though like arty or a steam tank or really big units. A 4x4 bit of wood isn't weaker if it's facing away from you.
Shank-stab them in the access-hatch!
The steam tank only loses 7 melee defence when attacked in the rear. Against an enemy with melee attack of 50 that means hit percentage goes from 70% to 77%. A 10% damage increase. Attack of 15 gets a 20% damage increase (35% to 42%). Contrast that with attack 75 hitting defence 100. That goes from a 5% hit chance to a 95% hit chance when attacking in the rear; an 1800% damage increase.
This mechanic punishes high MD units far more than low ones. Steam tank is defended by high armour and health instead, so it already doesn't affect them much.
Great content man! Happy to be a subscriber you helped me learn a lot not just for this game but for all total war games
should have noted in this video that ranged units on walls have a significant disadvantage because they seem to have a significant reduction in volume of fire, and the ramparts do more to obstruct them than to protect them( not counting the ones over the gate which do both nearly 100%), and while i have seen the ai do it i have never been able to have my ranged units fire at units to their left and right on the walls and have a significantly difficult time having them shoot down at the inside at any kind of angle.
Historical battles show that most casualties occur after a unit breaks. It's one of the reasons that Alexander the great had such low casualties.
Heck, Kipling wrote about it.
"Remember, it's ruin to run. "
Given the melee defence reduction from behind, does that basically mean that monsters that have a rear attach animation are weaker as they won’t turn around as they can keep attacking that way round so will get hit more.
9:20-9:30 you should do your very best to make them come down, the way to do that is just send a mounted (arch)mage to start casting damage spells on them. As I only like to play with the Empire and the Asur in campaign, it's easy to do. I almost always force the enemy to come to me and fight me in my position.
Literally the best warhammer youtube channel! I love your videos!! Super helpful
Appreciate that big homie
I didn't know the fatigue and high ground values, but the game isn't exactly secretive about them existing. I also figured there would be something with flanking, but nice to know the rules now.
BTW if units use ladders they will also use lot of their fatigue, jumping down to very tired, so better to use towers where they can also get their charge bonus.
Clear and concise, good job. Thank you.
@12:23 - anyone else really upset to see those waywatchers on the left just wasting their precious ammunition on a tree? 😭
That was a super-informative video! I wasn’t aware of half that stuff, like the stealth rules and the high ground damage bonuses and charge pursuit! Awesome demystification!
Very useful, thanks for the tips mr. Zerkovich
I don't understand why being tired would reduce a unit's armour. Like no matter how tired they are, they're still wearing all their armour.
I guess it's the games way of telling you that your tired soldier cannot protect his weak spots that good anymore hence the reduced armour.
If you have been fighting a lot, it’s likely that your armor had been weakened or damaged
I wanted to know if they kept the shield mechanic from medieval 2 and before. Like, if you hit a unit with shield from the side that does not have the shield or from the back, do they still have the %bonus? Or no shield bonus?
If you're talking about shooting the back and sides of units then the mechanic still works how it works in Medieval 2. If you shoot the back or sides of a unit with a shield it doesn't get the shield bonus.
i think shield only works on blocking arrow in warhammer
Mouse over the shield icon on the unit card to read the explanation. It states ranged attacks from the frontal arc get bocked by bronze/ silver/ gold percentage. The extra melee defence from the shield is counted on all sides (but modified by the flank/ rear attack like Zerk said. Its realistic too. Imagine a soldier getting attacked from the front, raising his shield to protect his head from an angry chaos troll mace. When an orc tries to cave in his skull from the back, that raised shield will get in the way of his choppa' as well. Not as effective, because blow from unexpected angle and not fully over his head, but the blow MIGHT slide off to the side. The soldier, noticing movement, might even hold his shield behind his back if there is not a direct threat in front of him. LARP battles teach us many things 😁
@@sjonnieplayfull5859 ah, ty, i had not noticed the explanation. Perfect, it works exactly like medieval 2/rome total war. Good to know.
There is no shield armor mechanics in this game . Although if there is such mechanics, defensive play style would be encouraged and we would see less interesting and entertaining battles
Now what we want is a very wide and not very long character, so that its front is massive for that sweet full MD
This is a vital video that should just be pasted across the forums.
zerk thank you for the tactical info, also loved the obi wan reference!
iirc back in shogun time when every attack triggers an animation. attckimg someone from the side makes no difference in term of melee defense
I don't even play this game but I feel like a strategic genius after watching this video
Hehe
So the most lethal damage a unit can do is by;
1; Being fresh
2; Pursuing
3; Hitting the back (2 and 3 are a bit of a loop)
4; Having the best high-to-low ground advantage.
5; Enemy being exhausted
6; Some anti-large or anti-infantry as well as armor piercing, I guess.
I'd like to know how overpowered such a specific buff would be lol.