The Decline (and Probable Fall) of the Scientology Empire - Jim Lippard
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Jim Lippard spoke on the history of the Church of Scientology, how it has collided with the Internet and lost control of its secrets and its membership, and is now seeing an accelerating decline as its top members leave for new alternatives.
Jim Lippard founded the Phoenix Skeptics in 1985, and co-founded the Phoenix Area Skeptics Society in 2011. He's written articles and book chapters on skeptical topics, including two articles in Skeptic magazine on Scientology, "Scientology vs. the Internet" in 1995 (co-authored with Jeff Jacobsen) and "The Decline (and Probable Fall) of the Scientology Empire" in 2012. He also contributed to Gordon Stein's Encyclopedia of the Paranormal and Joe Nickell's Psychic Sleuths.
Video notes starting at 13:50: The Fraser Mansion, though referred to by Scientology as the "founding church" from the 1970s to 2010, wasn't the original building. The original building, at 1812 19th St. NW, is now a museum called the L. Ron Hubbard House (though his house was across the street), which the church acquired in 2004. The Fraser Mansion is now Scientology's National Affairs Office.
The first use of the name "Church of Scientology" was by the Church of Scientology founded in Camden, N.J. in Dec. 1953; the first Church of Scientology corporation was in Los Angeles (Feb. 1954, which became the Church of Scientology of California in 1956), the Church of Scientology of Arizona was incorporated that same year. Hubbard's organization while he lived in Phoenix was the Hubbard Association of Scientologists, International (HASI), founded in Sep. 1952. All HASI assets were folded into the Church of Scientology of California in 1966.
(Views expressed are those of the speaker and do not necessarily represent the views
of the National Capital Area Skeptics.)
A drummer in my band back in the 80's had a sister in COS and she was always trying to entice us to join by saying things like it could be our "big break", etc. I was very adamantly opposed to the whole idea, even if I wasn't nearly as informed about the cult as I am now. I'd rather get nowhere at all than get involved with these evil cultists!
well done for not succumbing to her words;bet you're glad now :)
It very well could have been a 'big break' but you would have sold your soul in return and trapped .
This is the first lecture I have seen that brings all the facts together calmly and rationally. While I appreciate hearing the experience of ex-scientologists, it is nice to see it all presented by a messenger without an axe to grind, devoid of superfluous emotion. Very well done and thanks.
If you watch a 1000 videos on the Cult, you may not get an answer to this; Where does an abusive sinister Cult get bottomless buckets of cash? The answer may be right under your nose.
It's always a treat to hear a well researched, and delivered, presentation on virtually any subject. Good job Mr Lippard.
I appreciated the way this man has done research and give real facts. Scientology...Shame on you
One of the most detailed explanations of Scientology that I have heard! Very insightful. Thanks for your work, Mr. Lippard!
I almost got caught up in this idiocy in the early '80s through friends on the fringes of the Hollywood music and acting scene. It was one of the weirder experiences in a long life of weirdnesses (haha), It left a bad taste, but fortunately when they found out that I really didn't have any money, they left me alone. I'm one of the lucky ones.
Me too! I ran with that same crowd and had a boss who tried to recruit me.
That fcuk ya didt
yes,they certainly favour the rich but never be complacent with this mob;they will still want to recruit you if they can,possibly hoping you may know someone less poor or just spread the word for them and even possibly use you as a recruiter.I always saw through them,it never attracted me but i can see why a lot do like it;who doesn't love the sound of a war-free,drug-free,crime and insanity-free world? it's very seductive and that is precisely why they are so evil.I have satisfied my own mind that they are not even as sincere in their fight against psychiatry as i thought,so they are not worthy of respect at all in my eyes.
Excellent, concise information and well presented. Thank you Jim for making this available.
The lisa pcpherson story is by far one of the saddest tragedies to occur bc of scientology! Its such a shame that this disgusting cult didn't receive the proper punishment for this devastating tragedy!
they're pretty untouchable due to their wealth and tactics which leave many very afraid of them.
One of the best Scientology lectures I've seen on here. Required viewing, really well explained.
I'm glad people are catching on. U can see that by the low numbers (25,000) of members in the US
Unfortunately Danny people are easily hooked by the promise of personal gain (at anyone's expense - it doesn't matter). Personally I take comfort from the fact that greed is the motive behind joining the cult, and the cult exists to fleece them entirely!
There is a beauty in this symmetry that does not exist in god-based religions. If future generations become more aware of what lies actually are,perhaps the race will survive.
Best commentary I have seen so far providing a great overview of the Cult of $cientology.
D Drpdrp I like how you have the S in Scientology substituted by the dollar sign. Very appropriate.
🌲🌝☘️
Really no difference between Hubbard and Joseph Smith.
well, at least one of them PRETEND to believe in God.
You are correct, the similarities of mormons and Scientology is amazing.
Shoni Raymond Why you make fun of religin?
Shoni Raymond Are you a mormon?
splibb
I'm not a Mormon, but I am a homosexualist.
Easy to spot posts from Scientologists here -- just look for the ones that attack poke fun at Jim and do not address the content. Classic! I guess it's all they can do since much of what he presented is indefensible.
look mate 75 million years ago there was a war and the bodys of one side were put into volcanoes and had h bombs dropped on them and now these spirits live in us what cant i defend?
What absolute horse shit that whole story about volcanoes is. That’s not doctrine that’s god awful science fiction. Written by a hack of a writer. My dog can write better sci-fi and he doesn’t understand the human language and doesn’t read.
This is the most comprehensive video I have seen on scientology, amazing!
Best summary I've seen. Lots of facts with a sprinkle of snark. Good job.
This is a fabulous presentation. Thank you!!!
Excellent lecture. Great break down of timeline and information.
Good job, Jim.
Excellent presentation, very informative. I show it to as many people as I can.
dont really get the criticisms..i didnt notice anything about the presentation that was stuttering, ive seen college professors do a lot more stuttering..must be scientologists complaining
Spot on mate.
It’s probably one of the best UA-cam videos on Scientology, especially about it’s internet stuff.
While a little dated the material gives a good overall basis for further knowledge about Scientology!
This is a very astute presentation on Scientology. What surprises me is how Scientology, despite its collapsing empire, continues to buy real estate. Even more...why the IRS still allows this org (which reminds me of a bad timeshare deal) to remain tax exempt?
+TheMotz55 The CoS filed something like 10,000 lawsuits against the IRS. In the face of that, the IRS gave up and declared them a religion and thus tax exempt.
I know, but they don't have the influence they had earlier. More people understand Scientology now. The IRS would have public support and could defend themselves more effectively now.
This whole channel is so fucking cool. I don't know much about this organization but seemingly right up my alley. Tons of content and so little time.
"Tomato! What are your crimes? You are out-ethics! You are now declared an SP!"
Get to the Real Prime Fertilizer now (RPF)
EarlFaulk Real Prime Fertilizer? It's almost like you're saying Scientology is a load of horse shit...
Digscomics
"Scientology being a load of horse shit"? That would be in insult to the horse shit!
That tomato should be punished for its crimes by being sentenced to be chopped up and eaten in a sandwich!
Lady V Yes - instead of being all gussied-up and used on a Caprese Salad!
If you are put off or distracted by the presenter’s constant umms and ahhhs, stick with watching, I was about to stop the video 10 minutes in but I’m glad I stayed with it. He really has presented every possible piece of information in this exceptional presentation.
Thank you Mr, Lippard for your fantastic debunking of Scientology,
Every word here is a coffin nail....
I'm currently watching the sciencefiction/fantasy television series Lost. I'm 89 episodes in out of 120, so I'm really deep in. The thing is though, as much as I want to finish the series, I just find Scientology so much more fascinating...
ok actor plant whatever you say. how much they pay you to comment on this bullshit? either that or your just another one of the shrinking group of scientology morons that grow fewer and fewer everyday. My guess is actor plant.
pandarama67
your stupidity amazes me. Seriously.
ok not actor plant just a new member of a shrinking group of idiots
pandarama67
do you seriously believe I'm a scientologiest?
pandarama67 'shrinking group' Panda? Please let your optimism be justified. Perhaps Lars means fascinating like scorpions and leeches are.
it's 5 years later. how are we doing on that "fall of the empire" thing?
The majority of people on the planet still think it’s ridiculous & a cult .
the cult has DECLINED ALOT in these 5 years.....
Big thanks for this one! Having made good use of Jim Lippard's many writings for years now, it's nice to get to see and hear him.
My issues with Scientology are the following: (1) Pay to pray, the richer you are the "holier" thou art. (2) You only get access to what they want you to know, there is no way to see the higher level content until they deem you acceptable, I think that smart people are probably never acceptable. (3) First resort to anything is to sue, if that fails sue harder. (4) Tom Cruise........This reason is replicated in numbers (5) - (100).
You know what, I can not sit through another Tom Cruse movie. Year by year of finding out what he believes. More so his arrogant, stupid comments of superiority.
Jennifer Clark and Luke. Enjoyed your notes. I never saw a tom cruise movie - somebody must be looking after me....
Just newly subbed. Thanks for your information. You've collected it in a way people can understand. This subject is so complex!
"The one man in the world who never thinks he's mad is a madman" -- LRH
Actually The Power of Source is amazing. I'm not a Scientologist and I whole heartedly wanna destroy them,but that is an amazing Jazz record. If you haven't heard it don't knock it. It has nothing to do with their beliefs. The drum solo is sweet. I can almost feel Xenu's 70's cop drams...Xenu! Space Cop!
Lmao - agree!
Scientology doesn't lure in as many crazy people as one might think. The lure of Scientology is the social aspect. Friends lure in friends, lovers lure in lovers, and when one joins, everyone is excited to have you. It's not that there's something wrong with your judgment. It's the seduction of being part of something and fitting in with a community. Having a whole group of people who believe what you believe.
Now it is 2019
Money talks and this church has plenty
Ron Miscavige wrote a book about his son called 'Ruthless'.
It is a tough thing ... but the truth will come out, David!
One should also stress one the most important crimes against humanity of LRH...being a terrible fiction author.
Kingsley Zissou Aa
i haven't read his stuff so can't say but the scientology stuff is probably pretty much the same thing.
'Blown For Good' is Mark Headley's book. Tony Ortega is tearing up on his blog and dally updates - they're great - are posted daily on his Facebook page Thanks...
Chuck: I appreciate your detailed comments and corrections! I am probably only going to do this talk one more time, in a greatly abbreviated form (30-40 min), but I would like to write more on the subject, with particular focus on the Internet aspects that I have the most familiarity with. I'd like to dig more into Justin Petersen & the Aznarans...
Trying to go after South Park.
Haha they sure are crazy beyond anything.
Spacey Tracey didn't so much take them on as hired millions of $ of lawyers and twisted the existing loopholes to show they could win. Any billionaire can get anything they want in N.america. trump.
calm like a bomb (1) Spending $ to hire attorneys IS taking them (the IRS) on. It's the very definition of "taking them on". And (2) why don't you ask Bernie Madoff or Martha Stewart if being mega-rich always keeps you out of jail?
Attempted to call counseling and help/abuse help lines to receive help from after defecting. Not a single soul in these departments and institutions, did not care to listen nor help. Passed off, told “well it seems you’ve done your research! Goodnight!” And hung up on. I don’t think the world wants to help other people help themselves from a messy mess.
Impressive, Jim. Great job.
Would be great to see a follow up on this.
Great lecture!!!!! I agree.
Fantastic summary of key point, thanks!
This is a really fantastic lecture, thanks for sharing!
Their headquarters in DC is beautiful. I've been there when I lived in DC when I was invited to learn about Scientology. Twas bullshit then, is bullshit now.
***** I don't know about that. The Scientology headquarters in DC is in a very old and very fancy mansion on P Street just before Dupont Circle. I believe that was the founding church headquarters.
I lived in downtown Clearwater for a few years (2011-2014), one block over from the Fort Harrison Hotel. They WILL try to “groom” you, if you’re willing. All the people and charity functions they had there were quite fun and fancy ...and catered! The people were exceptionally nice and welcoming. They never asked us for anything more than our first and last names. They give a gift bag with an L. Ron video and other Scientology info. If you’re interested, you really have to come to them and let them know directly. It feels like an exclusive country club. It is beautiful, I must say. But my spouse and I quickly came to the conclusion that it wasn’t for us, it is a pyramid scheme, yep, a cult! ...because of shunning family and friends who are against the church, that alone is absolutely cult behavior. To me, it seems that they are very secretive!! And ALL of downtown clearwater is filled with cameras! They’re in the bushes, every 10 feet! The tiny cameras everywhere if you look close, in the trees, parks, all over the buildings. Seems excessive. Also, some of L.Ron’s writings are NOT COOL!!! Gays are looked down upon (considered to be a lower level parishioner)!?! This is 2020! People need to let the gay thing go! Also, L.RonH. writes to ruin someone’s life if they try to mess with the church... AND their family & friends. This BEHAVIOR is abhorrent! Seems there’s nothing nice about this religion, if it even qualified as one and I might say it could... but the rules are ridiculous as well as how they treat people! They’re evil!
I liked this lecture. Very informative and comprehensive. Good job
People do this on a small scale all the time. I've known plenty of people that have become clergy and then purchased properties, including their own homes, and used it for tax exempt status. I don't know how they get away with it, but it happens everywhere.
Time to crack down on religion and make it EXTREMELY difficult to get exempt status for anyone or any business, especially religious institutions
That's actually a great idea, but twisted the other way around. Someone should start a church called Bullshitology and have it so that every member is automatically "clergy," and then not have to pay property tax on their own homes, and possibly even incomes. I suppose anyone could just make up a religion and do this on their own but the cost of hiring a lawyer to file all the paperwork and licensing fees might be prohibitive for a lot of people but THEN AGAIN when you figure how much you've already paid in taxes, it's probably worth it.
Worth watching. Good informative video with actual sources which can be accessed and independently evaluated.
🌲🌝☘️
really good talk, thanks
I bought a pocket book from them when I was only 10 years old (1973). I'm still on their mailing list. Every 10 years they send me something. They are persistent, I give them that.
Me too. Been on their list since I was 12, and they always find me, using my maiden name, at every address across the country.
my hero: l ron hoover and the church of applianceology.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Tony Robertson Hoover “nobody clears it like you” for everything else there’s Visa
"customers of scientology" thats a perfect way to describe it.
Well Done
Wow. Those two squirrels in that story in the beginning sure had some nuts on 'em.
Charese: You are correct that the Scientology definition of squirrel is someone who is "doing something entirely different" and altering Scientology, which in practice is applied to anyone in the independent Scientology movement. Thanks for making a valid criticism.
Great video, now do one on the decline and eventual fall of the catholic religion!
How do you explain the full blown $cientology Superbowl Ad? Was that a last ditch effort to get people back into it? Or an accurate depiction of the kind of assets they still have?
Unbelievable! What a bunch of crap Scientology is!! I'm awe struck at how anyone can still defend this cult, Wow!!
Thanks for sharing. Pragmatic insights.
Its all bullcrap folks, always remember that and do not fall into fantasy traps.
Jim - Point of information: The touch assist does not consist of "pointing at various areas and asking if it hurts" (I paraphrase you). It actually consists of touching the body extremities (toes and fingers) alternating from one side of the body to the corresponding other side. The idea is that injuries can become locked in if the synapses run out of acetyl choline (it happens if the input is severe enough). The subsequent touch impulses left-right left-right travel via the sympathetic nervous system and can re-establish the synaptic connections, thereby releasing the injury.
I speak from cloudy memory (!) but the assists generally work very beneficially.
Thank you for clarifying
Great video, talented band, here's to their continued success
See "Going Clear" on HBO.
They still have members?! Hard to believe. 🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🥕🐑🐑🐑🐑
Why haven’t the ones who committed crimes been jailed?
Those who joined this cult....why? I mean what are they thinking? Also those in the Sea.Org...how can ordinary people tell which one is a real Navy personnel over the Sea. Org members when they wear the exact, if not close to identical uniform...isn't that dangerous?
Islam and Scientology.....hmmm
There is a very big difference between Islam and Scientology.
Tina Bush Of course.,..one is a religion the other a pseudo religion.
Islam, a religion? Wrong! It is an ideology, under the cover of religion.
All religion, actually. Lies and fairy tales disguised as Truth.
Why join? Easy! Coz the good bits work - like dynamite. Fantastic. It's not 'til later that you discover that the way it's run organisationally (as opposed to the practices) stinks.
And now Leah Remini has left, with her entire family and all of her 'friends' have been ordered to disconnect. Marl Headley has a great interview on Coast to Coast as well. Great presentation..
What's that? You'd like to clear your thetans of engrams on the bridge to total freedom? I know a song about that. "Oh ol' L Ron Hubbard went to the cupboard to give his E Meter a bash..."
Omg 🤣🤣🤣
Via JA ... “To abandon facts is to abandon freedom. If nothing is true, then no one can criticize power, because there is no basis on which to do so. If nothing is true, then all is spectacle. The biggest wallet pays for the most blinding lights.”
Snyder, T. D. (2017). On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century. New York: Tim Duggan Books. (p. 65).
Yes, I'm including Sea Org (what Wright calls the "clergy," though that's a somewhat strained analogy) in the "staff" category (people employed by CoS).
Excellent
I've been hearing about the fall of Scientology for the past 20yrs, it's still here though. As Tony states, the people on the inside don't know many of the tenants of Scientology and that doesn't seem to be changing.
Scary...Lisa McPherson died on my Birthday. No wonder I've had several interesting run ins with Org members posing as "normal" people. They must think Lisa's "Thetan" has possessed me or something and I'm trying to get revenge on them.
And that's precisely what Scientologists cannot say: "Look at both sides." It is only their side what matters. It only matters what Scientology is. The mindset of the Church of Scientology is NOT to listen to both sides; that the opinions of critics and ex-Scientologists don't matter. That leaked Scientology confidential scriptures don't matter. That what the media reports doesn't matter. How can you confront suppression if you refuse to investigate it?
Excellent thank you
Great talk.
Good talk congrats. Try loosing the ''Uhhhh!'', it would sound really good.
Independent Scientology - A Bridge to total Freedom - from Scientology
Very thorough review!
The Scientology internet filter mentioned was based on a software called CyberSitter, not NetNanny. It was hence nick-named "ScienoSitter" by the online community.
I completely agree, but public speaking 101, stop saying, "Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah," lol, ffs. This was hard to listen to. Scientology, we are literally watching a religion's birth, and now we should understand just how silly all religions actually sound, if you knew the man who just made it up. lol
Jack White I agree. Even though he did say ah and all that, to me it was more of a communication bridge to his next thought rather than a stutter. He is a computer guy, and I doubt he was trained in public speaking. Even though his presentation had some pauses, he was not rushing through it and he seemed pretty relaxed to me. I would have to say he did very well. And he got a fair amount of applause at the end, and some good follow-up questions. So no doubt he was effective.
Jack White Yes, his presentation was deliberate and very understandable. He did fine.
Very helful
I couldn't agree more, the high up dissenters always seemed to wreak of lust for power. With Rinder and Rathburn I have a feeling there was some sort of failed Coup.
If anyone knows about any other channels on UA-cam similar to this channel please let me know. I love this type of stuff and my binging will eat this channel up quickly haha Thanks
For accuracy: The org shown at 1:17:43 is the current St. Louis org. Their ideal org is still in construction.
Unfortunately, this was 7 years ago and the COS is still around doing their shady shit.
This video is evil propaganda from Xenu! (great job!)
Xenu, the same that sent over-population to a volcano and blew it up?
Is it?
Yes in comparison If one did not know that there is an encyclopedia of information on Scientology and they are exposed to a comic book full of negativity,then they could think Scientology is all bad. But one has to know that there is an encyclopedia full of good things they are doing and what it really is all about, not just what the Legal Drug pushers, put out to the ones already disgruntled.
It takes a lot of effort and determination to improve one's lot in life.
Many find a reason, not to...
Too many uhs and ums, sir. I wanted to hear your information, but just couldn't hang with doing so.
I wanted to join Scientology but then I realized I was way too poor to even get remotely close to God with their cost.
Kifflom!
We need to know what you have to say, but please try to correct your speech impediment if you are going to address the public verbally. Your frequent 'ums and ahs' are about the worst I have encountered. I could NOT listen to your important message.
***** Join the club! I switch off pretty quickly when I hear this impediment. Some people think they have to speak faster than they think or appear slow-witted. But it's the quality of their ideas that count. If you have confidence in your ideas you can use pauses for emphasis, and be more convincing. But quick speakers impress the slow thinking audience, Agree?
farting undercrackers If you hear a musician singing or playing out of tune, do you have to be a practising musician to know this? If you want to speak in public, and cannot do so, you invite criticism.. Jim Lippard lacks confidence and speaking skills - and so do I. If I do post videos one day, I shall write words that seem spontaneous, and then learn to speak them. For the comfort of viewers. And because I am a professional.
It's interesting how different things bother different people. Like jets flying over a house, some people don't notice, and others are driven crazy. I enjoyed this presentation. I didn't hear it like you did. I'm sure it bothered you though. Of course you didn't want to be critical.
I had this speech impediment. The only thing I can do is to speak slower. The thing is that new ideas pop into the head too quickly and some people don't turn off their focus on those background thoughts. However, this can get much worse if you start to develop a keen and fast mind and don't develop techniques to deal with it. Don't see this as a sign of lower intelligence, you'd not be looking at it the right way. The main thing this it is, is the abandonment of focus on the main thought train to develop a new idea that seems worth the effort to mess with. The body doing "unnecessary" movements or functions (mmmming,loling, twitching, moving hands) are indirect energy created from the effort of strenuous thought, you know,from like bloodflow and other shit. All it means is that there is much (or too much) effort or consideration in the persons mind that isn't immediately related to what the person is doing. *cough* Obama *cough*
Anyways, it does suck having this, but it is easily avoided if you realize what you will say, when you will say it, how long it will take you to say it,why you say it, and more shit as such BEFORE you give a presentation. If you feel like you have a grip of the situation you won't need to be on your toes. But honestly, speaking too well is equally disturbing to me because and i will only take it well in certain contexts. A speech to convince me to hate or love something is no place for me to listen to a guy who masters his words too well. I can sense sincerity in a persons efforts easily, anyone can. A business or task related thing though, gimme dee guy hoo spiiks re lee gUd,,
Trollamollex Thank you mollex (I can't call you Trolla, can I)... You certainly need skill to speak quickly, but to pace speed for the listener's benefit, and to filter out the 'noise' (background thoughts) - to use pauses to think through the next bit (instead of fillers) requires character and confidence.
You make a good point about the over-polished speaker - especially one who has polished lies and nonsense to persuade the gullible. But content and delivery are different matters. I hope Mr Lippard is not cross with us for hijacking his talk. But I appreciate your considered contribution. Go well.
i recognize the left picture from the thumbnail. it was from a protest against ACTA (something like Article 13) here in Salzburg/Austria. just a fun fact for you guys
I can"t get past his , and um, um, and ah um... lost him in the first 2min.... an um.... and um.... an um.... yes loved Jason Beghe!
Whether or not charitable work is done, this is a business and in no way could be considered a religion. Any charitable work appears to be done with the intent of recruiting, thus increasing profits. There do appear to be some psychological benefits; however, compassion and taking action against mental and physical torture seem to be lacking in those who are in control. I understand the reluctance of those who do feel compassion and yet fear being ostracized. Scientology: A NASTY BUSINESS!
Overall you did a great summary in a very short time. The current unfortunate fad is to consider official Scientology as declining towards imminent obliteration.
The proof of them actually holding their own, is the Clearwater "Mecca" church's weekly income is still in the 500 Gs to 1.5 million dollars range, and that is how the whole upper Sea Org units (LA 12 story management building; the Int Base "top" Sea Org units) are funded by.
Important to note about the "Complex" is the "AOLA" is...
thta specled wall reminds me of the glaze we used in the late 70s the flakes were in the glaze and it was just painted on.
I wish you would have mentioned how the caropractors, veterinarians, and other professionals who are being sucked into it and losing all their money.
Very informative. Difficult to listen to, because there are more “uhs” an “ums” than I have EVER heard before, in any presentation. At the copious amounts these words are used, it is difficult to give the informative aspect, of the presentation, full attention and credit.