60 amp breaker with 6 gauge thhn wires (black, green, red) across 100 feet of basement ceiling inside 3/4 flexible non metallic pvc conduit should be fine right?
You're talking on a 50a breaker right? We always want to look at the breaker size, not the amperage you're charging at since the breaker is what's going to shut off power if there's a short or whatever. That said, if that's what you meant, then yes, you're good.
@@sanjapkoki It's probably cause they don't realize there are different types of 8 AWG. They are talking about Romex/NM-B. That #8 is rated for a 40a circuit. Even electricians sometimes don't realize the difference. I can't tell you how many videos I've seen on here where a licensed electrician is putting in #6 NM-B on a 60a breaker. That's a no no as that wire is rated for 55a. You need #6 THHN/THWN/MC for a 60a breaker (or bigger).
Very useful distinctions here. My garage subpanel was fed from the house main with 6Ga. copper THHN, but from 60A. breaker. Only one 20A. receptacle and one 15A light circuit out there, ordinarily not powering anything, so wonder if I can add a full 60A. breaker out there to feed the Tesla Gen 3 unit, applying the same logic that not every 20A outlet is being used at once in a kitchen circuit. Curious why the charger's max output at 48A advises a 60 A breaker, vs 50.
@@z1522 theorically, you could put in a 60a breaker for your wall connector, but you may not pass a load calc if permitting is important to you. Since EV charging is considered a “continuous load”, you have to follow the 80% rule. This is where the 48a number you hear always comes from. Very ill advised to charge at 48a on a 50a breaker where the wiring is rated for 50a, not 60a. Thats a great way to melt that wiring and cause a fire.
Hi, great information. One question....I see breakers rated at different temperatures. Does the breaker need to be rated at 90 degrees C as well? Thanks for the great video!
I've actually never heard that asked before anywhere. Even on the forums talking to people for years. Usually you just buy the right size breaker for your wiring and you're good. That said, if you're seeing that, it would be safe to match up temp as well. Keep everything consistent.
Thank you for the video! I wanted to upgrade my DiY NEMA 14-50 to Tesla wall connector, but wasn’t sure if the 6AWG was good enough, but it seems to be.
If you're already buying individual wires for the hots and ground, you should really make them all 6 THHN as shown in the video. Keep it consistent. I believe you can use 8 THHN for the ground, but I've heard of cases where this can cause issues with the wall connector working properly. It's not worth it to cheap out on something like this when your entire house is at risk.
For this big of a gauge of wire, you're going to want stranded. Solid wiring is typically more for lower amperages like 30a and below. I'm not sure I've seen a 60a breaker install with solid wiring. I'm sure there are installs out there, but stranded is much more common. Stick with that like I did in the video.
You actually don't need the neutral if you're hard wiring. Just black/red for the hots and green for ground. The only reason the neutral is even there sometimes if people will wire these on a 50a breaker and use 6AWG romex. 6AWG romex is usually comes 6/3, so the white neutral is already inside the covering. You don't use it for this hard wire setup. Just let it be and cap it off on both sides.
@@bbooth1229 You're correct on the 120v/120v. Having 240v total, both the hots act as hots and return. Sorry, I'm not an electrician, so my explanation isn't going to be pro. The 2nd response explains a little better. teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/why-no-neutral-in-the-hpwc.239243/
@@bbooth1229 In main home circuits, 240 V. coming in has two phases and a white neutral. 120 V circuits are fed from one phase and the white neutral is the return. 240V is the voltage difference between the two out of phase lines, in an Alternating current at any moment. Many 240v circuits feed things like ovens or dryers, where other electrical components only use 120 v, so the white neutral completes those circuits which 240 would fry. Closed units like car chargers have only the primary 240, so the neutral is not needed.
@@nukem384 ok thank you. I thought it should be fine for now. I also only charge for 30-60 minutes in a day mostly. Its the wall charger I had installed, not the 14-50.
@@mohammadkamran5862 Uhhhh ok you better set the wall connector as a 50a breaker then, not 60a just for extra safety. And don't charge over 40a or you're risking melting that wiring and starting a fire if you try and charge at 48a.
Thank you for your excellent series of videos. I have found them very helpful as I prepare for my first EV.(R1S) I planned/installed my EVSE with a licensed electrician but there is indeed a lot of confusion out there with 6AWG romex being the go to for many despite the fact that it is not rated for 60 A. I am still confused about the 55 degree rating in the chart you showed where THHN is not listed and I have had at least one electrical supplier tell me that because of that 6AWG is not to code. That said I presume that because of the 75 and 90 degree ratings it is safe and it seems to be what most are doing on a 60 A breaker. People on the forums have been able to get 4 AWG into the Rivian connector block, but it is my understanding that, by code, the block has to mach the wire guage and the Rivian block spec'd max is 6AWG. If not for that , as a precaution, I would have used 4 awg (like the Tesla charger an allow). 6AWG THHN is not the only choice. XHHW or XHHW-2 Has the same temp ratings as THHN with reportedly a thicker and yet stronger sheath that is more resistant and flexible than THHN. My local supplier has XHHW-2 already in a 6/3 flexible metal conduit (about $3.50/foot) and I found this a very easy way to accomplish the 30 foot run from my panel. I wanted the extra (unused) neutral to future proof my system If chargers ever need to tap off one of the hot leads for a 120V use. While the ground in my cable is 8AWG if there were ever a fault problem with the charger I could relabel and use the neutral as a 6 awg ground. I do wish the Rivian Charger block allowed 4awg that would put the 55 A issue to bed. Many thanks
Sounds like you've really done your research. Yeah I'm not 100% on the 55 degree either. I even asked an electrician and he couldn't really explain it to me. But being that 6 THHN is rated at 75a, I'm ok with it. 6 THHN is very very popular with 48a chargers. So if it weren't safe, you'd be hearing a ton of stories of EVSE's catching fire. And even if it makes you a little weary, just turn the amperage down to 40a and you'll be good. Still plenty of power to charge the R1S. I like your backup plan too. Smart move for future proofing in multiple ways.
@@nukem3846/3 NM-B, or Romex, is rated at 55 amps because it is a CABLE, made of three individual conductors. The wires being tightly bundled together inside a sheathing. Also, in the electrical code, NEC article 334.80, it specifies that the ampacity of NM cable (which includes “B”) is to be reduced. It directs us to a chart, and ends up being 55 amps. (Table 310.15, 60 degree C column, 6AWG copper) So, in summary: the individual conductors INSIDE that cable can handle more, but the cable assembly cannot. Also, 6AWG THHN has 90 degree C insulation, which can handle 75 amps, as you stated. These are installed loosely in a conduit. Caution: even though your WIRE is rated at 90 degrees C, and is safe at 75 amps, your terminals (screws) are not. The terminals on the breaker and inside the charger are not rated for 90 degrees C, but 75 degrees C. This is clearly labeled. This means you must treat your THHN 90 degree wire as if it were a 75 degree wire, and lower the ampacity. So you cannot run 75 amps through it. Table 310.15 in the NEC shows us the ampacity for a 75 degree, 6 AWG copper conductor. This is 65 amps. In a nutshell: Your wire can handle 75 amps safely, your breaker terminals can only handle 65 amps safely, and your charger can only handle 60 amps safely. Use a 60 amp breaker for your installation and you’ve protected every part of the system.
@@Justinwhat1 Thanks for the detailed response. Didn't know that piece about the terminals, but they obviously need to be rated more than 60a if we're talking about a 60a breaker and a 60a EVSE. Not sure if you knew this (you probably do), but since EV charging is considered a "continuous load", you also need to follow the 80% rule. So charging on the Tesla wall connector can't go higher than 48a. The EVSE literally will not let you charge with more power than that. But of course since we want everything to NEC code and we always have to plan based on the breaker that protects the wires, everything needs to be rated for over 60a.
@@philiphaller8160 Couple of things. 1. 55a rated wire on a 60a breaker is a great way to start a fire since the wire will melt before the breaker pops 2. Level 2 charging puts a ton of stress on the wires. Just because it's rated at 55a, it could still melt before the breaker pops. 3. Since EV charging is considered a continuous load, I'm not risking putting Romex in when it not rated for the 60a breaker, that's just not a good practice. You should always be installing wire rated for HIGHER than the breaker size. Also need to consider the 80% rule for continuous loads.
I learned a lot more about electric from your helpful video 🙏. I dont know my electric panel can handle 60amp breaker or not but just to be safe Im thinking to install 50amp( for me I think it’s enough,50 breaker can output 40A, 37 mph is not too bad). And with the 50amp breaker,which wire you think is safe and work perfectly with tesla wall charger ??? Can you please give me an advise. Thanks a lot !
Yeah if you don't think your panel can handle 60a, go with 50a. I would stay with the same size wire on 50a. 6AWG THHN or just 6AWG in general is fine for 50a.
60 amp breaker with 6 gauge thhn wires (black, green, red) across 100 feet of basement ceiling inside 3/4 flexible non metallic pvc conduit should be fine right?
Yup you are good. That's a long run, good luck on the pull!
Thank you. So it seems a #8 wire THHN or THWN is rated for 55Amps which will work for a 40Amp charger. Correct? I just need to have it in a conduit
You're talking on a 50a breaker right? We always want to look at the breaker size, not the amperage you're charging at since the breaker is what's going to shut off power if there's a short or whatever.
That said, if that's what you meant, then yes, you're good.
@nukem384 Thanks for your prompt reply. Yes breaker is 50 Amps. Everywhere on internet everyone saying #8 can only do 40Amps.
@@sanjapkoki It's probably cause they don't realize there are different types of 8 AWG. They are talking about Romex/NM-B. That #8 is rated for a 40a circuit.
Even electricians sometimes don't realize the difference. I can't tell you how many videos I've seen on here where a licensed electrician is putting in #6 NM-B on a 60a breaker. That's a no no as that wire is rated for 55a. You need #6 THHN/THWN/MC for a 60a breaker (or bigger).
Very useful distinctions here. My garage subpanel was fed from the house main with 6Ga. copper THHN, but from 60A. breaker. Only one 20A. receptacle and one 15A light circuit out there, ordinarily not powering anything, so wonder if I can add a full 60A. breaker out there to feed the Tesla Gen 3 unit, applying the same logic that not every 20A outlet is being used at once in a kitchen circuit. Curious why the charger's max output at 48A advises a 60 A breaker, vs 50.
@@z1522 theorically, you could put in a 60a breaker for your wall connector, but you may not pass a load calc if permitting is important to you.
Since EV charging is considered a “continuous load”, you have to follow the 80% rule. This is where the 48a number you hear always comes from. Very ill advised to charge at 48a on a 50a breaker where the wiring is rated for 50a, not 60a. Thats a great way to melt that wiring and cause a fire.
Hi, great information. One question....I see breakers rated at different temperatures. Does the breaker need to be rated at 90 degrees C as well? Thanks for the great video!
I've actually never heard that asked before anywhere. Even on the forums talking to people for years. Usually you just buy the right size breaker for your wiring and you're good. That said, if you're seeing that, it would be safe to match up temp as well. Keep everything consistent.
Thank you, been heavily researching since im buying a Tesla universal charger for our E tron.
Glad it helped. The universal will be a great pick for your Audi and whatever future EVs you may buy.
@@nukem384 I will be using push to connect EMT conduit from southwire it'll make my life easier the whole run is about 25ft
@@nukem384 finished installing the charger on new years after 4months of heavy research lol. everything works well on 50amp breaker
Hi
Can I use 10/3 and 50 amps?
Thank you
Watch the video again. Absolutely not. 100% guarantee you start a fire.
Thank you for the video! I wanted to upgrade my DiY NEMA 14-50 to Tesla wall connector, but wasn’t sure if the 6AWG was good enough, but it seems to be.
Just make sure it's 6 AWG THHN or MC. 6 AWG romex is very common with 14-50's and that can't handle the full 48a on a 60a breaker.
@@nukem384 It’s separate wires that I purchased at electrical supply house, not Romex.
@@eeng4234 As long as that wire is rated for over 60a, you're good.
Can I use 10 awg THHN for ground ? 6 awg for hot ?Thank you !
If you're already buying individual wires for the hots and ground, you should really make them all 6 THHN as shown in the video. Keep it consistent. I believe you can use 8 THHN for the ground, but I've heard of cases where this can cause issues with the wall connector working properly. It's not worth it to cheap out on something like this when your entire house is at risk.
Yes, you can use #10 for ground according to code.
Is stranded or solid core recommended?
For this big of a gauge of wire, you're going to want stranded. Solid wiring is typically more for lower amperages like 30a and below. I'm not sure I've seen a 60a breaker install with solid wiring. I'm sure there are installs out there, but stranded is much more common. Stick with that like I did in the video.
Why do you need to color the white? Because there are two hots and the green is the neutral with no ground?
You actually don't need the neutral if you're hard wiring. Just black/red for the hots and green for ground. The only reason the neutral is even there sometimes if people will wire these on a 50a breaker and use 6AWG romex. 6AWG romex is usually comes 6/3, so the white neutral is already inside the covering. You don't use it for this hard wire setup. Just let it be and cap it off on both sides.
@@nukem384 So the black brings 120 and the red brings 120 and no neutral? How does the energy return? Sorry, I am still learning.
@@bbooth1229 You're correct on the 120v/120v. Having 240v total, both the hots act as hots and return. Sorry, I'm not an electrician, so my explanation isn't going to be pro.
The 2nd response explains a little better.
teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/why-no-neutral-in-the-hpwc.239243/
@@bbooth1229 In main home circuits, 240 V. coming in has two phases and a white neutral. 120 V circuits are fed from one phase and the white neutral is the return. 240V is the voltage difference between the two out of phase lines, in an Alternating current at any moment. Many 240v circuits feed things like ovens or dryers, where other electrical components only use 120 v, so the white neutral completes those circuits which 240 would fry. Closed units like car chargers have only the primary 240, so the neutral is not needed.
Thank you for the information.
Glad it helped
My electrician installed 6AWG aluminum Romex. 🤦
Anyone know if it should be fine if I only charge at 32AMPS?
In a what? NEMA 14-50? Looking at the charts, that's still fine to charge at 32a. Not my first choice either, but it'll work.
@@nukem384 ok thank you. I thought it should be fine for now. I also only charge for 30-60 minutes in a day mostly.
Its the wall charger I had installed, not the 14-50.
@@mohammadkamran5862 Uhhhh ok you better set the wall connector as a 50a breaker then, not 60a just for extra safety. And don't charge over 40a or you're risking melting that wiring and starting a fire if you try and charge at 48a.
Thank you for your excellent series of videos. I have found them very helpful as I prepare for my first EV.(R1S)
I planned/installed my EVSE with a licensed electrician but there is indeed a lot of confusion out there with 6AWG romex being the go to for many despite the fact that it is not rated for 60 A.
I am still confused about the 55 degree rating in the chart you showed where THHN is not listed and I have had at least one electrical supplier tell me that because of that 6AWG is not to code. That said I presume that because of the 75 and 90 degree ratings it is safe and it seems to be what most are doing on a 60 A breaker.
People on the forums have been able to get 4 AWG into the Rivian connector block, but it is my understanding that, by code, the block has to mach the wire guage and the Rivian block spec'd max is 6AWG. If not for that , as a precaution, I would have used 4 awg (like the Tesla charger an allow).
6AWG THHN is not the only choice. XHHW or XHHW-2 Has the same temp ratings as THHN with reportedly a thicker and yet stronger sheath that is more resistant and flexible than THHN.
My local supplier has XHHW-2 already in a 6/3 flexible metal conduit (about $3.50/foot) and I found this a very easy way to accomplish the 30 foot run from my panel. I wanted the extra (unused) neutral to future proof my system If chargers ever need to tap off one of the hot leads for a 120V use. While the ground in my cable is 8AWG if there were ever a fault problem with the charger I could relabel and use the neutral as a 6 awg ground.
I do wish the Rivian Charger block allowed 4awg that would put the 55 A issue to bed.
Many thanks
Sounds like you've really done your research. Yeah I'm not 100% on the 55 degree either. I even asked an electrician and he couldn't really explain it to me. But being that 6 THHN is rated at 75a, I'm ok with it. 6 THHN is very very popular with 48a chargers. So if it weren't safe, you'd be hearing a ton of stories of EVSE's catching fire. And even if it makes you a little weary, just turn the amperage down to 40a and you'll be good. Still plenty of power to charge the R1S.
I like your backup plan too. Smart move for future proofing in multiple ways.
@@nukem384 Thanks again, and thanks for your videos.
@@nukem3846/3 NM-B, or Romex, is rated at 55 amps because it is a CABLE, made of three individual conductors. The wires being tightly bundled together inside a sheathing. Also, in the electrical code, NEC article 334.80, it specifies that the ampacity of NM cable (which includes “B”) is to be reduced. It directs us to a chart, and ends up being 55 amps. (Table 310.15, 60 degree C column, 6AWG copper)
So, in summary: the individual conductors INSIDE that cable can handle more, but the cable assembly cannot.
Also, 6AWG THHN has 90 degree C insulation, which can handle 75 amps, as you stated. These are installed loosely in a conduit.
Caution: even though your WIRE is rated at 90 degrees C, and is safe at 75 amps, your terminals (screws) are not.
The terminals on the breaker and inside the charger are not rated for 90 degrees C, but 75 degrees C. This is clearly labeled.
This means you must treat your THHN 90 degree wire as if it were a 75 degree wire, and lower the ampacity. So you cannot run 75 amps through it. Table 310.15 in the NEC shows us the ampacity for a 75 degree, 6 AWG copper conductor. This is 65 amps.
In a nutshell: Your wire can handle 75 amps safely, your breaker terminals can only handle 65 amps safely, and your charger can only handle 60 amps safely.
Use a 60 amp breaker for your installation and you’ve protected every part of the system.
@@Justinwhat1 Thanks for the detailed response. Didn't know that piece about the terminals, but they obviously need to be rated more than 60a if we're talking about a 60a breaker and a 60a EVSE.
Not sure if you knew this (you probably do), but since EV charging is considered a "continuous load", you also need to follow the 80% rule. So charging on the Tesla wall connector can't go higher than 48a. The EVSE literally will not let you charge with more power than that.
But of course since we want everything to NEC code and we always have to plan based on the breaker that protects the wires, everything needs to be rated for over 60a.
How about 6 awg romex with a 50 amp breaker?
Yup, that's fine. Just make sure you set the wall connector to 50a instead of 60a. And don't charge over 40a (80% rule). And cap the white neutral.
The wall connector draws a max of 48 amps. How could it melt 6 gauge Romex if it's rated at 55 amps?????
@@philiphaller8160 Couple of things.
1. 55a rated wire on a 60a breaker is a great way to start a fire since the wire will melt before the breaker pops
2. Level 2 charging puts a ton of stress on the wires. Just because it's rated at 55a, it could still melt before the breaker pops.
3. Since EV charging is considered a continuous load, I'm not risking putting Romex in when it not rated for the 60a breaker, that's just not a good practice. You should always be installing wire rated for HIGHER than the breaker size. Also need to consider the 80% rule for continuous loads.
I learned a lot more about electric from your helpful video 🙏.
I dont know my electric panel can handle 60amp breaker or not but just to be safe Im thinking to install 50amp( for me I think it’s enough,50 breaker can output 40A, 37 mph is not too bad). And with the 50amp breaker,which wire you think is safe and work perfectly with tesla wall charger ??? Can you please give me an advise. Thanks a lot !
Yeah if you don't think your panel can handle 60a, go with 50a. I would stay with the same size wire on 50a. 6AWG THHN or just 6AWG in general is fine for 50a.
Thanks again. This help me a lot 👍
6/2 MC works too
Yup, the same rating as 6 THHN.
So 6/2 gage will work