As a zealot player this was annoying to see. We have so much more durability and even a way to self heal, the zealots is the last person who should be sucking all the heals lol
I think the lower end ones definitely should be tweaked to be more unique or better for different situations. It sometimes feels like there is no need to use any but the MG12
It certainly looks that way! I'm honestly so surprised that after almost 5 months, the XII hasn't been touched nor have the IV and 1A been buffed... wonder what the balance team is thinking about hmmm...
@@rykenxiv I played with the guy in charge of class/weapon balance in Vermintide 2 a little bit. If it's still the same guy (I believe it is) then he's probably thinking about why he can't play on Malice without getting wiped out. Without hyperbole, the guy struggled on Veteran in Vermintide 2 and had no frame of reference for what people were talking about what weapons are good and bad (on higher difficulties) because he never experienced them.
@@thoughtbom Well.... that's... that's a little concerning... . _ . hmmmm. I wonder if I should release a video on Blessing/Weapon changes - at least from a build-crafters POV in the hopes that someone from Fatshark might watch it as use it as a frame of reference It might just be coincidence, but the last time I recommended changes in my video, the Psyker's Warp Unleashed became what it is today after my suggestions on how to improve it.. One wonders....
I have been saying this since launch, MGIV and MG1a is massively overshadowed by the MG12. The MG1a has the same ammo economy as the MG12 but lower damage, so even the MGIV is somewhat better than the MG1a because of that fact. Wish they increased the ammo efficiency of the MG1a and made the MGIV automatic.
Work like this is invaluable. Fatshark is terrible at giving us good data, so it's up to the community to do so. Not only is this specific info fantastic, but it gives people a template on how to test their own build ideas. A+ work. Thank you.
Really great breakdown video. When I started playing, the MG12 was the only Kantrael I’d use, but after getting the mods full auto and toggle ads, I can’t put down the MG4. I wouldn’t touch the MG4 before, but thanks to those QoL mods it’s my favorite weapon. I call mine ‘The Barn Burner’ haha
You are a legend for these videos. Trust me when I say I don't usually sit through 10+ minute tip videos but yours have been incredible and kept me playing this game. Thanks again.
The numbers presented are excellent. What is even more excellent is your verbal breakdown of what they mean when paired with the well laid out tables. I benefited most from your clear verbal summaries of what each table meant overall for the performance of each weapon.
13:00 no, I gladly sat through it. Excellent stuff, i like your mathematical approach. Been using the mg12 on my vet since the beginning, but when i got one with headhunter and deadly accurate 4 it made a difference that was obvious from the first shots.
I do like the number breakdown and recommendations - especially since your recommendations tend to have a good eye towards the way that people are going to use the gun, instead of just the 'on paper' strength.
The MG4 on zealot using the attack speed on missing health feat adds to it's firing rate. You'd be surprised by how fast it can fire with max stacks. Very good DPS with crits and burning stacks on top.
It seems that Zealots are destined to use weapons that BURN heretics haha! Thanks for sharing that - I didn't know about attack speed carrying over into the fire rate (which makes the XII even more.... "blessed")
The breakpoint charts are great! Other weapon reviewers I have seen just talked raw damage and generally their advice is “more damage is best”. Which doesn’t sit right to me, because why have more damage if a headshot would already one tap and either way you two tap bodies. At this point I exclusively come here for weapon reviews.
Yes! I find the mentality of more damage = better to be... not helpful since you can overkill something by doing that. I'm a player that loves utility and QoL stuff if I can fit it into a build, so I try my best to find way to make a weapon more enjoyable or interesting to use rather make it a damage stick! Thanks for watching!
I appreciate the tables and pause to check out any that are relevant to my playstyle! I found out pretty early on that the XII is the go-to lasgun on my Veteran. Such a fun gun to use.
Hey Ryken, your videos are very impressive and very well made. As is also your math and calculations that some of us peons aren't able to do. Keep up the good work for the community and the game!
I can only speak for myself, but I like the tables. Right now I'm not using any lasgun because I got bored of them, but guaranteed if I pick one up again I'll be re-watching this video to refresh my knowledge of them.
Another big thanks Ryken. Compared your tables/information with my notes regarding the K XII and the K a1 -- I have been over the moon with my K XII since like January. It's only 338 overall but Damage at 78 with how I built it gives me my breakpoints except for 2 bodyshot on flak, but I am confident with weakpoint accuracy and as a Preacher I'm not standing back cosplaying as a Veteran - I pick off high risk targets, utilize it's Tier 3 Between The Eyes blessing to suppress Gunners safely and all around just can't believe how damn strong it is. This video was great for several reasons but FINALLY putting the mystery in my head to rest regarding the inconsistent Damage it did at certain ranges was huge. I had just accepted that it's some bug or hidden modifier, meanwhile had I considered it possible for something to basically have a hidden blessing/modifier and tested that out a bit I could have been even more in love with it all this time.
These in-dephts review are precious in my eyes even if I don't remember all the maths behind. Also it gives me ideas for more loadouts. Keep doing this stuff Ryken 😉
The Kantrael XII Lasgun was the first transcendant gun my veteran got, and it's my bread and butter. It hits like a horse...is an amazing special enemy killer...and it's great firing from mid-range against hordes.
as a zelot main i would like to add for the lasguns in particular if you take any damage speed perks from your class they do indeed carry over lasguns. meaning the high firerate lasgun can be increased up to 40% faster, however thats not the best use of this feat however. taking the higher damage slower firing lasgun allows you to absolutely beam anything coming your way. its a build all in it of its own considering the ability cost is for 10 seconds of damage speed boost. if all your curio’s have ability cooldown you can use this pretty frequently to delete mutants, trappers or realistically anything even mualers & crushers if you catch your abilities damage boost to deal enough damage while the boost is up. also the damage breakdowns you made i appreciate, usually people dont go indepth with feats which is why i prefer your breakdowns of them. ive been able to go from heresy to damnation consistently because i fixed a lot of my gear keeping your recommendations in mind. my highest rated weapon (550) is the heavier hitting lasgun on a zelont and its one of my favorites considering the overall high level of consistency
4:20 Like, i guess you could call it a hidden mechanic, but it is detailed in the weapon's damage and stopping power stats the complete extent of the numbers. I like to call it inverse or reverse weapon falloff instead since thats also where damage falloff would be listed if it performed like most other guns. Maniac damage in particular has a difference of about 55% from far and near damage ranges, completely different numbers in how sniper would work. All Lucius lasguns work this way as well, as well as the Vld Recon lasgun. Though it is irritating that weapons with collateral that work this way dont have the stopping power to show their damage ranges.
This video helped solidify my gut feeling that the XII was a very good weapon to use and arguably one of the most solid secondary's to pick. It lets you 1-2 shot the basic ranged enemies which having the precision needed to deal with ranged enemies. Along with the math to show that the only perk needed is effectively +25% flak to hit reasonable breakpoints.
I built a grenadier build/medic/jack of all trades Veteran; after finding and playing all of the Kantrael Lasrifles I love the MG1A. The MG1A basically fires as fast as the MGIV and 40 less damage than the MGXII with a 103 clip and over 800 extra rounds, very quick weapon swap, I think this gun is underrated maybe even better with the new updates but each to their own. For blessings I picked: Deadly Accurate and Headhunter with Flak and Maniac ;p
This is a good video! I like the kantrael lasguns though to your last question I do think giving them something a bit more distinct between them would be nice, especially if it was a different special ability besides just the torch. I am grateful you did all that math since it's something the game isn't too clear on otherwise, so confirming my suspicions that the mk. XII is hands-down the best is nice to see with numbers backing it up!
I dident distingush a lot between them, just went with XII for high base damage, and because I like sniping. Great vid, goes to show its a great choise, I think the XII is the best, because of the ammo available, damage and range, my second choise is the plasma, but it suffers a lot from low ammo cap, bolter from dumb animations that needlessly delay its readyness and autoguns, while reasonable, struggle too much with the bosses and elites, leading to ammo issues, disprite reasonable cap.
Hey Ryken, how do you think a Headhunter + Infernus 1a would do? I ask because I randomly got an extremely nice mission drop with ranged damage (elites) / unyielding enemies / Falter 3 / Infernus 4 and I would love to swap elite dmg to unarmoured and falter to Headhunter, but need to make sure that's a good plan.
It does... alright I suppose. In my experience, I think the 1a does better with Deadly Accurate because it has the raw damage to back the jump in crit weakspot damage, so a Headhunter + Deadly Accurate combo is very strong on the 1a. Considering that Headhunter is only going to work if you land headshots, I don't think very many enemies except for Monsters and Carapace Elites are going to last long for Infernus to do any meaningful work (probably get like 2 - 3 stacks of burn before they outright die from you headshotting them?) i think you can keep the Elite damage since that will still apply to some of the unarmoured enemies that matter like Dreg shotgunners and gunners! Instead, swap out both blessings for Headhunter + Deadly Accurate to lean into the weapon's strength of decent alpha damage and balanced fire rate. This applies to the XII as well! The MG IV on the other hand, can really make use of Infernus since its has a much higher fire rate and lower alpha damage. if you are on a vet, pairing a Headhunter + Infernus along with Onslaught (and Rending Strikes if you can swing it) will give you a very weapon that will melt even Carapace armour on Damnation! Hope this helps!
Something important that I don't think you mentioned: The damage stat determines base damage and also the damage multiplier against unarmored and infested, whereas the stopping power stat determines stagger damage and the damage multiplier against all the other armor types (flak, maniac, unyielding, carapace). The takeaway is that you want both damage and stopping power to be as close to 80 as possible.
Hey, I run with a 80% MK XII with long shot, kill zone, precision strikes, all the way to determined, and middle tree: superiority complex + rending strikes, and it allows you to one-shot everything on the table without executioners stance, which allows me in turn to use voice of command instead :3 on T5 of course. To make up for always prepared I just take the ammo on crit. which stacks nicely with Headhunter.
This vid is greatly appreciated, your detailed explanations are kept concise and easy to understand. I think the lower tier las guns need like a 3 or 5pt damage boost per ammo, with the 12 either needing a increase to 4 ammo per shot? this vid kind of shows how much of an outlier, like the recons and hellbore are more in line with the MG4 or A1 for ammo.
Even at 4 ammo per shot, its damage efficiency would still be much higher than the other two. One of the suggestions I mentioned in another comment in this video was increase its ammo cost to 5, but really ramp up its weakspot damage (maybe to 2.5x and 2.9x for Flak) to really set it apart from the rest and push into a more "Sniper" roll (high single target damage and great one-shot headshot potential, but low ammo efficiency)
I can assure you your calculations are not wasted. It gives better clarity on how weapon would do rather than using my inferences based on my experience.
Finally, the true chad's weapon. I prefer to use weakspot damage and suprresion reset / immunity combination though, because it also plays into what you want to do with the weapon: hit weakspots, and suppression reset allows you to even continue doing that while under fire, so taking on some of the most anoying enemies in the game: shooters. I also run unyielding but had it with flak armored, I might swap that out for unarmoured after seeing this video.
Been having a blast with the blue recon lasgun, sucks against maniacs tho. Note about the sniper feat for vet is it caps out at 35 meters which is pretty unrealistic for most situations
@@rykenxiv i didnt do any in depth testing, just tried with one weapon and started far away and kept shooting till my damage was worse. it was the mk12 lasgun so its built in bonus may have effected it as well
You don't actually need to have the Vet's Sniper Feat since the Kantrael already has it built in! My Vet build is almost always the same: Column 1 - At Arm's Length Column 2 - Demolition Stockpile Column 3 - Bio-Optic Targeting Column 4 - Unwavering Focus Column 5 - Frag Storm (look up my 7 Hidden Mechanics if you want to know why!) Column 6 - Counterfire I hope I answered your question!
The MG12 is probably my most consistently strong weapon that I can always fall back on. I got a God roll drop from melk maybe 2 weeks after launch and each patch that goes by without it getting touched feels like I've gotten away with something underhanded LOL
I know right! I have a godroll as well (but on my Psyker) and sometimes I wonder if the devs have just decided that Kantrael XII should be the pinnacle of weapon performance.. haha
@Ryken XIV it's on my veteran and has deadly accurate on it. Being able to regularly 2 shot reapers on damnation with a crit headshot is just so incredibly satisfying. Not to mention the absolute DEVASTATION if I manage to get multiple crits on a beast of nurgle. I think the MG12 has got to be one of those "secret OP" type weapons you want to rave about, but also not say anything so it doesn't get nerfed.
Oh yea... I was doing the math for the XII with Deadly Accurate and Headhunter + The Bigger They Are... and the goal was to dump as many headshot into a Demonhost while it was executing someone (and therefore standing still). The maximum theoretical damage output in those 5 seconds while Volley Fire was active was...25,850 damage which works out to be 80% of a Demonhosts health. Of course, this is just the theoretical maximum, but the fact that the math can go to that extent shows how crazy the XII can be if the stars align!
My mega efficiency mg12 basically means I can clear a damnation without resupplying simply due to the 1 shot headshot or up to 5/6 even on the big boys with headshots or the ability headshots.
Great video! Could you make one about attempting at least to make the Recon Lasguns useable in Damnation? I love them at lower difficulty but struggle at high and I want to use them if possible as it suts my playstyle better than just using the MGXII. What would be the best blessings and perks?
I love your videos, always good info about weapons. You just made me build Vet with this Lasgun. Btw can you made video about Helbore Lasguns? I love using them but I'm not sure what build will be the best. :>
It was a toss up between the Helbores and the Kantraels Las for this new format of video (multi-weapon review). This video helps me learn how to make the next multi-weapon reviews better and where I can improve!
For the stats the amount that is given per percent is pretty linear, so you could have calculated them instead of shopping for a 79% damage MG4, assuming that's what happened. Though it probably was a fraction that wouldn't make a difference. Min value of the stat range + (difference between min & max * the stat percentage). Also handy for forecasting if they would make any new breakpoints once it is possible to find stats above 80%. Opening Salvo could still be useful for people who have to (temporarily) make do with a poor damage roll lasgun because you need time to aim at enemy heads anyway, so the effect should practically apply to every shot without slowing anyone down. Wouldn't +power also work on the cleave for just a bit better damage spread?
Thanks for the formula! I think I'll start messing with it to see what minimum rolls a particular weapon should have in upcoming reviews! As for Opening Salvo, you're right that it can help bridge the breakpoint gap for some low roll weapons on certain enemies, but as I said the video, this wasn't the main problem - it was the fact that the lasguns that could realistically make use of it the extra damage are forced to really slowdown its shots. In this case, for the MG IV for example, if you need a damage boost, you might as well have No Respite since you'll still need multiple shots anyway but now you don't have to sacrifice DPS to do so. Meanwhile, even a low damage roll XII would still be doing enough 1 shot headshot most of the common dreg and scab enemies without Opening Salvo. Of course, if we start including class feats and buffs, then Opening Salvo might become more useful in helping the MG VI and 1A reach a new breakpoint, but then that complicates the conditions to make Opening Salvo useful and you still wind up with a blessing that doesn't help you if you need to unload shots in a group or into a monster for example!
One of my initial thoughts was to make it so that each one had a specific use case! For example, if the XII is the sniper/marksman one, the MG 1A could be the equivalent of a M4A1 (its already got 1A in the name anyway) and could lean into its stability for CQC fire fighting. Meanwhile, the MG IV could have a lower headshot multiplier, but have a relatively higher bodyshot damage to make the spray and pray aspect of it more enjoyable!
I think Opening Salvo is a good pick for a Helbore since the charge mechanic "resets" your salvo on its own - while the Mark II can very easily practically spamfire like an MG Ia and keep the charge in its back pocket, the Mk I and III are more focused on armor cracking and might benefit as pocket plasma guns. However, I would pick onslaught any day for them. As far as the Kantrael Lasguns go, I think the MGXII is too powerful relative to the others. A minor buff (think 5 or 10%) to their base damage might help the Ia and IV since I would prefer to make weaker weapons stronger instead of making stronger weapons weaker. The Ia does not feel like it "earns" using 3 ammo per shot with its damage and that's undoubtedly skewed by the XII, meaning the Ia feels far hungrier as a weapon than it should.
I just hope your work here stays current in the face of updates that may come down the pike. The experience with Chaosgate daemonhunters has left me scared of game balance patched for informed gameplay
I guess my only question is, whats the best way to farm a weapon for the god rolls? I wish it was like VT2 in sense we got crates that could give us mulitple times that could lead into an endless cycle of crafting and augmenting. But in this game I gota run 5-6 levels (25 min average X 5-6) 1.5 hrs just to bring one weapon up assuming you have been good grabbing all the crafting supplies, to find out you first stats or blessing as garbage.
I have no good answer for this because of how the game has been designed (i.e. RNG layer cake). Personally, I just find a weapon with good base stats and try to get the Anchor blessing on it and play the game as normal, collecting blessings as I go. Eventually, without frustrating myself, I'll land on a roll with the perks I'd like! That being said, this is not an excuse for how little agency we get when it comes to our itemization progression! This is something I'll talk about in depth in a State of the Game video coming very soon!
They've renamed all the old weapons! This makes it a little confusing about why you might not be able to find stuff on youtube... Mk IIb should be the MG IV
Not exhaustive, he says. You madlad, thanks for tabulating all that shit together in the first place. May I propose the only buff lasguns need in the form of a tier 4 blessing: Hair Trigger. Turns your lasgun fully automatic. Now, if it needs the ultra-cynical power cycler treatment, make the tier 3 version fire at 60-75% max fire rate. Ezclap, fatshark can mail you my checque for all the work. Btw, please don't stop. Thanks!
You can One Shot Body shot Scab Shooters with Opening Salvo for the 12 on Vet with Volley fire with more leeway (especially if you roll a native flak 3 perk and want to take unyielding). I wouldn't call that obscure per say.
Granted, I don't think headhunter is very good on the MG 12, it's far too unforgiving. I use deadly accurate 4 and Falter 3 hit blessing on a 378 base 12, but I think there's a big argument for using opening salvo. Especially for ammo efficiency. I would only use it on the 12, but I do feel like it's nice to have with the amount of shooters up 5 can throw at you to make up for a multitude of things.
One last thing I wanted to mention is Falter. Remember that the amount of overstagger you do manages your stagger duration. Your base gun can stagger bulwarks with a headshot, so you can essentially stunlock a bulwark when he swings or turns or gets up after getting hit with Falter 3/4. In fact, the stagger duration can be so long, often times you'll kill it before it becomes unstaggered. I think it's a neat yet overlooked perk, and I think the second perk is pretty flexible; especially if you're not using headhunter. I really do want to try Ghost 4/Deadly Accurate 4 on the 12 out, I got a really high level gun with that on it.
the mk X heavy laspistol outshines even the best infantry lasgun in every way. better damage, high critical chance, faster reload and higher rate of fire.
Yup! The levels out the damage efficiency of the XII but also makes it less "forgiving" to use since your total damage output from a mag is now lower. If they went the route of increasing the cost, I think a fair balance for it is to actually increase its headshot mulitplier more, or even increase the base damage of the weapon! This makes it closer to an actual sniper (high single shots, low ammo) and would mix up the playstyle of the lasguns!
TBH with how much the other classes can crush it, they should buff the other guns for Vet rather than nerfing the XII. A talent to shred a target to increase its damage taken per shot (by only the Veteran using it) would do the trick. Something like 'Bore a Hole'. Faster weapons would stack it better. Perhaps making it only trigger on weak spot hits and critical hits, making it target-specific, and making it last a decent few seconds would work.
Very good Video! I almost exclusively run a 379 base rating MG XII with both Lvl IV Deadly Accurate +Headhunter Combo, +25% on Flak & Unyielding. Best Weapon in my (virtual) Arsenal! Currently working on a Krieg Design for my real AR-10 because of it :D
Got Tier 4 deadly accurate and headhunter on me kantrael but my personal favorite vet weapon atm is my hellbore 2 cuz I can easily deal with literally any enemy type I can easily kill all gunner types flamers and even maulers reapers bullwarks and crushers
You and I! As far as range weapons go, I use my Helbore II more than I did the entire Kantrael Lasguns put together! There was something about the Helbores that felt just right in my hands...
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
The numbers are highly valuable. I'm too lazy to do it all myself, so having someone display it is fantastic! Thanks!
11:34 I died a little inside when the zealot used a med station while a psyker and vet are on their last wound.
Some people man 😅 they don't consider the team which is crazy at this point in the game's life
Yes... we were in discord and just . _ . "why..." Thankfully, we made it to the next med station without incident!
As a zealot player this was annoying to see. We have so much more durability and even a way to self heal, the zealots is the last person who should be sucking all the heals lol
I think the lower end ones definitely should be tweaked to be more unique or better for different situations. It sometimes feels like there is no need to use any but the MG12
It certainly looks that way! I'm honestly so surprised that after almost 5 months, the XII hasn't been touched nor have the IV and 1A been buffed... wonder what the balance team is thinking about hmmm...
@@rykenxiv I played with the guy in charge of class/weapon balance in Vermintide 2 a little bit. If it's still the same guy (I believe it is) then he's probably thinking about why he can't play on Malice without getting wiped out. Without hyperbole, the guy struggled on Veteran in Vermintide 2 and had no frame of reference for what people were talking about what weapons are good and bad (on higher difficulties) because he never experienced them.
@@thoughtbom Well.... that's... that's a little concerning... . _ . hmmmm. I wonder if I should release a video on Blessing/Weapon changes - at least from a build-crafters POV in the hopes that someone from Fatshark might watch it as use it as a frame of reference
It might just be coincidence, but the last time I recommended changes in my video, the Psyker's Warp Unleashed became what it is today after my suggestions on how to improve it..
One wonders....
@@rykenxiv yeah, it's very strange how untouched they are. Maybe they'll rebalance a little at the content drop
I have been saying this since launch, MGIV and MG1a is massively overshadowed by the MG12. The MG1a has the same ammo economy as the MG12 but lower damage, so even the MGIV is somewhat better than the MG1a because of that fact. Wish they increased the ammo efficiency of the MG1a and made the MGIV automatic.
Work like this is invaluable. Fatshark is terrible at giving us good data, so it's up to the community to do so. Not only is this specific info fantastic, but it gives people a template on how to test their own build ideas. A+ work. Thank you.
Thank you for the elaborate reviews! The attention to detail and thoroughness is appreciated, looking forward to more!
Really great breakdown video. When I started playing, the MG12 was the only Kantrael I’d use, but after getting the mods full auto and toggle ads, I can’t put down the MG4. I wouldn’t touch the MG4 before, but thanks to those QoL mods it’s my favorite weapon. I call mine ‘The Barn Burner’ haha
Which class do you use the MG4 with?
You are a legend for these videos. Trust me when I say I don't usually sit through 10+ minute tip videos but yours have been incredible and kept me playing this game. Thanks again.
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed watching them!
Yes, we look at the numbers! I cant really imagine playing Vet without MGXII, its just such a good all around weapon straight out of the box :D
Months later this is still a huge help. Thank you for the hours you put into this.
Glad its still a useful resource!
Im using these videos to improve my gameplay 1 year later!
The numbers presented are excellent. What is even more excellent is your verbal breakdown of what they mean when paired with the well laid out tables. I benefited most from your clear verbal summaries of what each table meant overall for the performance of each weapon.
Thank you! Appreciate the comment and glad you found my analysis clear and understandable!
13:00 no, I gladly sat through it. Excellent stuff, i like your mathematical approach. Been using the mg12 on my vet since the beginning, but when i got one with headhunter and deadly accurate 4 it made a difference that was obvious from the first shots.
Thank you for all the work you do gathering all the data and presenting it in an easy to understand fashion.
I do like the number breakdown and recommendations - especially since your recommendations tend to have a good eye towards the way that people are going to use the gun, instead of just the 'on paper' strength.
The MG4 on zealot using the attack speed on missing health feat adds to it's firing rate. You'd be surprised by how fast it can fire with max stacks. Very good DPS with crits and burning stacks on top.
It seems that Zealots are destined to use weapons that BURN heretics haha! Thanks for sharing that - I didn't know about attack speed carrying over into the fire rate (which makes the XII even more.... "blessed")
@@rykenxiv Yeah the attack speed at low % affects all attacks but Martyrdom is Melee specific.
The breakpoint charts are great! Other weapon reviewers I have seen just talked raw damage and generally their advice is “more damage is best”. Which doesn’t sit right to me, because why have more damage if a headshot would already one tap and either way you two tap bodies. At this point I exclusively come here for weapon reviews.
Yes! I find the mentality of more damage = better to be... not helpful since you can overkill something by doing that. I'm a player that loves utility and QoL stuff if I can fit it into a build, so I try my best to find way to make a weapon more enjoyable or interesting to use rather make it a damage stick! Thanks for watching!
I appreciate the tables and pause to check out any that are relevant to my playstyle! I found out pretty early on that the XII is the go-to lasgun on my Veteran. Such a fun gun to use.
Another banger. The numbers help to understand your points and quantify the builds. Cheers.
Hey Ryken, your videos are very impressive and very well made. As is also your math and calculations that some of us peons aren't able to do. Keep up the good work for the community and the game!
Thank you for your kind comment!
Been using the kantrael for 600 hours of gameplay. I love it so much
I can only speak for myself, but I like the tables. Right now I'm not using any lasgun because I got bored of them, but guaranteed if I pick one up again I'll be re-watching this video to refresh my knowledge of them.
Glad you find this video a valuable resource! Thanks for watching!
Best dissertation Lasguns on UA-cam, and compact to boot!
Loved this video! Shared it to my disc. Keep fighting the good fight!
Great video. Going to keep this info in mind when I switch back to my Vet. I would love to see a breakdown of the Heavy Stubbers.
I was waiting for this to happen. Well done, huge help! Keep these videos coming.
Thank you! Glad it helped!
Thank you for making the video. Your breakdowns are super helpful, and I, for certain, feel more informed!
I'm not quite into the game mechanics enough to read through the numbers, but the builds and tips and tricks is greatly appreciated!
Appreciate you having the numbers to back up your recommendations.
As any build-crafter worth their salt should! Thanks for watching!
Thank you so much for everything you do Ryken! I've got Ogryn brain for numbers and stats, so videos like these are a MASSIVE help!
I think the lasguns are really good, and i do appreciate the damage numbers and calculations. It helps when I'm trying to minmax my damage
Another big thanks Ryken. Compared your tables/information with my notes regarding the K XII and the K a1 -- I have been over the moon with my K XII since like January. It's only 338 overall but Damage at 78 with how I built it gives me my breakpoints except for 2 bodyshot on flak, but I am confident with weakpoint accuracy and as a Preacher I'm not standing back cosplaying as a Veteran - I pick off high risk targets, utilize it's Tier 3 Between The Eyes blessing to suppress Gunners safely and all around just can't believe how damn strong it is. This video was great for several reasons but FINALLY putting the mystery in my head to rest regarding the inconsistent Damage it did at certain ranges was huge. I had just accepted that it's some bug or hidden modifier, meanwhile had I considered it possible for something to basically have a hidden blessing/modifier and tested that out a bit I could have been even more in love with it all this time.
That was the best video on dark tide that I ever saw. You are great.
your guids are by far the best quality
This was really well represented and put together. Thank you for taking the time to look at the lasguns!
I appreciate the content and the effort you put into gathering the information. Thanks man. I hope to see more, brother
Great video! Really in-depth and good presentation without making it too long. Really appreciate the effort you put into your vids. Keep them coming!
These in-dephts review are precious in my eyes even if I don't remember all the maths behind. Also it gives me ideas for more loadouts.
Keep doing this stuff Ryken 😉
Thank you! Glad you enjoy them!
So lucky I found your channel! Thank you and keep up the good work )
Thank you too!
The Kantrael XII Lasgun was the first transcendant gun my veteran got, and it's my bread and butter. It hits like a horse...is an amazing special enemy killer...and it's great firing from mid-range against hordes.
as a zelot main i would like to add for the lasguns in particular if you take any damage speed perks from your class they do indeed carry over lasguns.
meaning the high firerate lasgun can be increased up to 40% faster, however thats not the best use of this feat however. taking the higher damage slower firing lasgun allows you to absolutely beam anything coming your way. its a build all in it of its own considering the ability cost is for 10 seconds of damage speed boost.
if all your curio’s have ability cooldown you can use this pretty frequently to delete mutants, trappers or realistically anything even mualers & crushers if you catch your abilities damage boost to deal enough damage while the boost is up.
also the damage breakdowns you made i appreciate, usually people dont go indepth with feats which is why i prefer your breakdowns of them. ive been able to go from heresy to damnation consistently because i fixed a lot of my gear keeping your recommendations in mind. my highest rated weapon (550) is the heavier hitting lasgun on a zelont and its one of my favorites considering the overall high level of consistency
Ooh - that's interesting to know about the attack speed feats! Glad to know my videos have been helpful to you!
Thanks for this. You do all the number work so I don't have to. I greatly appreciate it.
4:20 Like, i guess you could call it a hidden mechanic, but it is detailed in the weapon's damage and stopping power stats the complete extent of the numbers. I like to call it inverse or reverse weapon falloff instead since thats also where damage falloff would be listed if it performed like most other guns. Maniac damage in particular has a difference of about 55% from far and near damage ranges, completely different numbers in how sniper would work.
All Lucius lasguns work this way as well, as well as the Vld Recon lasgun.
Though it is irritating that weapons with collateral that work this way dont have the stopping power to show their damage ranges.
This video helped solidify my gut feeling that the XII was a very good weapon to use and arguably one of the most solid secondary's to pick. It lets you 1-2 shot the basic ranged enemies which having the precision needed to deal with ranged enemies. Along with the math to show that the only perk needed is effectively +25% flak to hit reasonable breakpoints.
I built a grenadier build/medic/jack of all trades Veteran; after finding and playing all of the Kantrael Lasrifles I love the MG1A. The MG1A basically fires as fast as the MGIV and 40 less damage than the MGXII with a 103 clip and over 800 extra rounds, very quick weapon swap, I think this gun is underrated maybe even better with the new updates but each to their own.
For blessings I picked: Deadly Accurate and Headhunter with Flak and Maniac ;p
Awesome video. Thank you for all the hard work!
good job man love to see the dedication :)
This is a good video! I like the kantrael lasguns though to your last question I do think giving them something a bit more distinct between them would be nice, especially if it was a different special ability besides just the torch. I am grateful you did all that math since it's something the game isn't too clear on otherwise, so confirming my suspicions that the mk. XII is hands-down the best is nice to see with numbers backing it up!
I dident distingush a lot between them, just went with XII for high base damage, and because I like sniping. Great vid, goes to show its a great choise, I think the XII is the best, because of the ammo available, damage and range, my second choise is the plasma, but it suffers a lot from low ammo cap, bolter from dumb animations that needlessly delay its readyness and autoguns, while reasonable, struggle too much with the bosses and elites, leading to ammo issues, disprite reasonable cap.
Thank you for your efforts and the theorycrafting tables!
My pleasure! Glad you like them!
thx bro bout to take my vet death korps krieg cosplay to a whole new level
I love these in depth reviews. Keep up the good work.
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed!
Another solid review sah, very detailed i like it
Can confirm i paused and read your tables. Very valuable as a pskyer who loves the lasgun moving into damnation.
Your video are the best,you explain it all so well and clearly,its amazing🤘
Hey Ryken, how do you think a Headhunter + Infernus 1a would do? I ask because I randomly got an extremely nice mission drop with ranged damage (elites) / unyielding enemies / Falter 3 / Infernus 4 and I would love to swap elite dmg to unarmoured and falter to Headhunter, but need to make sure that's a good plan.
It does... alright I suppose. In my experience, I think the 1a does better with Deadly Accurate because it has the raw damage to back the jump in crit weakspot damage, so a Headhunter + Deadly Accurate combo is very strong on the 1a.
Considering that Headhunter is only going to work if you land headshots, I don't think very many enemies except for
Monsters and Carapace Elites are going to last long for Infernus to do any meaningful work (probably get like 2 - 3 stacks of burn before they outright die from you headshotting them?)
i think you can keep the Elite damage since that will still apply to some of the unarmoured enemies that matter like Dreg shotgunners and gunners! Instead, swap out both blessings for Headhunter + Deadly Accurate to lean into the weapon's strength of decent alpha damage and balanced fire rate. This applies to the XII as well!
The MG IV on the other hand, can really make use of Infernus since its has a much higher fire rate and lower alpha damage. if you are on a vet, pairing a Headhunter + Infernus along with Onslaught (and Rending Strikes if you can swing it) will give you a very weapon that will melt even Carapace armour on Damnation!
Hope this helps!
Thank you for your reply :) back to the drawing board. Now if I can get Dumdum on my Columnus MK5....!!!@@rykenxiv
Something important that I don't think you mentioned: The damage stat determines base damage and also the damage multiplier against unarmored and infested, whereas the stopping power stat determines stagger damage and the damage multiplier against all the other armor types (flak, maniac, unyielding, carapace). The takeaway is that you want both damage and stopping power to be as close to 80 as possible.
Hey, I run with a 80% MK XII with long shot, kill zone, precision strikes, all the way to determined, and middle tree: superiority complex + rending strikes, and it allows you to one-shot everything on the table without executioners stance, which allows me in turn to use voice of command instead :3 on T5 of course. To make up for always prepared I just take the ammo on crit. which stacks nicely with Headhunter.
This vid is greatly appreciated, your detailed explanations are kept concise and easy to understand. I think the lower tier las guns need like a 3 or 5pt damage boost per ammo, with the 12 either needing a increase to 4 ammo per shot? this vid kind of shows how much of an outlier, like the recons and hellbore are more in line with the MG4 or A1 for ammo.
Even at 4 ammo per shot, its damage efficiency would still be much higher than the other two. One of the suggestions I mentioned in another comment in this video was increase its ammo cost to 5, but really ramp up its weakspot damage (maybe to 2.5x and 2.9x for Flak) to really set it apart from the rest and push into a more "Sniper" roll (high single target damage and great one-shot headshot potential, but low ammo efficiency)
Great work dude.
I can assure you your calculations are not wasted. It gives better clarity on how weapon would do rather than using my inferences based on my experience.
I ve tried it and it looks surprisingly good
Finally, the true chad's weapon.
I prefer to use weakspot damage and suprresion reset / immunity combination though, because it also plays into what you want to do with the weapon: hit weakspots, and suppression reset allows you to even continue doing that while under fire, so taking on some of the most anoying enemies in the game: shooters.
I also run unyielding but had it with flak armored, I might swap that out for unarmoured after seeing this video.
Top tier video, good sir. The Emperor protects.
Glad you enjoyed!
A lot of hard work. I know Kantrael is the Meta, but I tend to use the Headhunter 3 - great to hear the burst :)
I too love my Vraks III! The satisfying ring of enemies dropping with every burst is addictive!
Sick vid as always 👌
Been having a blast with the blue recon lasgun, sucks against maniacs tho. Note about the sniper feat for vet is it caps out at 35 meters which is pretty unrealistic for most situations
Oh? It caps out? Meaning the damage boost only maxes out at 35m? If so, man they really leaning into the name of the Feat huh...
@@rykenxiv i didnt do any in depth testing, just tried with one weapon and started far away and kept shooting till my damage was worse. it was the mk12 lasgun so its built in bonus may have effected it as well
Thank you for doing the work.
AWesome video man! And what feats do you recommend for this build? Only the sniper - other ones are optional?
You don't actually need to have the Vet's Sniper Feat since the Kantrael already has it built in! My Vet build is almost always the same:
Column 1 - At Arm's Length
Column 2 - Demolition Stockpile
Column 3 - Bio-Optic Targeting
Column 4 - Unwavering Focus
Column 5 - Frag Storm (look up my 7 Hidden Mechanics if you want to know why!)
Column 6 - Counterfire
I hope I answered your question!
The MG12 is probably my most consistently strong weapon that I can always fall back on. I got a God roll drop from melk maybe 2 weeks after launch and each patch that goes by without it getting touched feels like I've gotten away with something underhanded LOL
I know right! I have a godroll as well (but on my Psyker) and sometimes I wonder if the devs have just decided that Kantrael XII should be the pinnacle of weapon performance.. haha
@Ryken XIV it's on my veteran and has deadly accurate on it. Being able to regularly 2 shot reapers on damnation with a crit headshot is just so incredibly satisfying. Not to mention the absolute DEVASTATION if I manage to get multiple crits on a beast of nurgle. I think the MG12 has got to be one of those "secret OP" type weapons you want to rave about, but also not say anything so it doesn't get nerfed.
Oh yea... I was doing the math for the XII with Deadly Accurate and Headhunter + The Bigger They Are... and the goal was to dump as many headshot into a Demonhost while it was executing someone (and therefore standing still). The maximum theoretical damage output in those 5 seconds while Volley Fire was active was...25,850 damage which works out to be 80% of a Demonhosts health. Of course, this is just the theoretical maximum, but the fact that the math can go to that extent shows how crazy the XII can be if the stars align!
My mega efficiency mg12 basically means I can clear a damnation without resupplying simply due to the 1 shot headshot or up to 5/6 even on the big boys with headshots or the ability headshots.
thank you for the upload
I've been playing with mk 12 las gun on my psyker. I really like it.
awesome! thx for useful info
Great video!
Could you make one about attempting at least to make the Recon Lasguns useable in Damnation? I love them at lower difficulty but struggle at high and I want to use them if possible as it suts my playstyle better than just using the MGXII. What would be the best blessings and perks?
Thank you too! ✨
My trusty right arm, lovely weapon
Thanks! Great Video
Thanks for watching!
I love your videos, always good info about weapons. You just made me build Vet with this Lasgun. Btw can you made video about Helbore Lasguns? I love using them but I'm not sure what build will be the best. :>
It was a toss up between the Helbores and the Kantraels Las for this new format of video (multi-weapon review). This video helps me learn how to make the next multi-weapon reviews better and where I can improve!
For the stats the amount that is given per percent is pretty linear, so you could have calculated them instead of shopping for a 79% damage MG4, assuming that's what happened. Though it probably was a fraction that wouldn't make a difference. Min value of the stat range + (difference between min & max * the stat percentage). Also handy for forecasting if they would make any new breakpoints once it is possible to find stats above 80%. Opening Salvo could still be useful for people who have to (temporarily) make do with a poor damage roll lasgun because you need time to aim at enemy heads anyway, so the effect should practically apply to every shot without slowing anyone down. Wouldn't +power also work on the cleave for just a bit better damage spread?
Thanks for the formula! I think I'll start messing with it to see what minimum rolls a particular weapon should have in upcoming reviews!
As for Opening Salvo, you're right that it can help bridge the breakpoint gap for some low roll weapons on certain enemies, but as I said the video, this wasn't the main problem - it was the fact that the lasguns that could realistically make use of it the extra damage are forced to really slowdown its shots.
In this case, for the MG IV for example, if you need a damage boost, you might as well have No Respite since you'll still need multiple shots anyway but now you don't have to sacrifice DPS to do so.
Meanwhile, even a low damage roll XII would still be doing enough 1 shot headshot most of the common dreg and scab enemies without Opening Salvo.
Of course, if we start including class feats and buffs, then Opening Salvo might become more useful in helping the MG VI and 1A reach a new breakpoint, but then that complicates the conditions to make Opening Salvo useful and you still wind up with a blessing that doesn't help you if you need to unload shots in a group or into a monster for example!
i do feel like the other lasguns should be buffed to at least be similar to the XII variant
I think most weapons in the game should be buffed to perform on approximately the same level as the XII, honestly.
One of my initial thoughts was to make it so that each one had a specific use case! For example, if the XII is the sniper/marksman one, the MG 1A could be the equivalent of a M4A1 (its already got 1A in the name anyway) and could lean into its stability for CQC fire fighting. Meanwhile, the MG IV could have a lower headshot multiplier, but have a relatively higher bodyshot damage to make the spray and pray aspect of it more enjoyable!
I think Opening Salvo is a good pick for a Helbore since the charge mechanic "resets" your salvo on its own - while the Mark II can very easily practically spamfire like an MG Ia and keep the charge in its back pocket, the Mk I and III are more focused on armor cracking and might benefit as pocket plasma guns. However, I would pick onslaught any day for them.
As far as the Kantrael Lasguns go, I think the MGXII is too powerful relative to the others. A minor buff (think 5 or 10%) to their base damage might help the Ia and IV since I would prefer to make weaker weapons stronger instead of making stronger weapons weaker. The Ia does not feel like it "earns" using 3 ammo per shot with its damage and that's undoubtedly skewed by the XII, meaning the Ia feels far hungrier as a weapon than it should.
Helbore can't use Opening Shot.
@@BlueEyesWhiteViera It can't? That's daft! It's the literal perfect gun for it!
With all of Darktide's problems, speaking as an Imperial Guard player\fanboy, I am at least very satisfied that Fartshart made the Lasguns so good.
Thank you very much for the work you do :p
Thank you for taking the time to watch!
I just hope your work here stays current in the face of updates that may come down the pike. The experience with Chaosgate daemonhunters has left me scared of game balance patched for informed gameplay
I guess my only question is, whats the best way to farm a weapon for the god rolls? I wish it was like VT2 in sense we got crates that could give us mulitple times that could lead into an endless cycle of crafting and augmenting. But in this game I gota run 5-6 levels (25 min average X 5-6) 1.5 hrs just to bring one weapon up assuming you have been good grabbing all the crafting supplies, to find out you first stats or blessing as garbage.
I have no good answer for this because of how the game has been designed (i.e. RNG layer cake). Personally, I just find a weapon with good base stats and try to get the Anchor blessing on it and play the game as normal, collecting blessings as I go. Eventually, without frustrating myself, I'll land on a roll with the perks I'd like!
That being said, this is not an excuse for how little agency we get when it comes to our itemization progression! This is something I'll talk about in depth in a State of the Game video coming very soon!
awesome video, could ya do the stub revolver next please? Imlooking to run it on zealot
I have it in my schedule.. somewhere... But it's definitely one I'd love to do if only because Cowboy things..
WAUW, damn i love numbers. Thank :D
Hey Ryken, how do you think a Headhunter + Infernus 1a would do?
i cannot find anything about the mk IIb anywhere, apparently it doesnt exist, except im looking at it in game
They've renamed all the old weapons! This makes it a little confusing about why you might not be able to find stuff on youtube... Mk IIb should be the MG IV
yeah I made an attempt on the forums to brouch the topic of rebalencing it. folk weren't entirely receptive about it
Nobody likes their power fantasy taken away (looks at Power Sword changes on the forum...)
Not exhaustive, he says. You madlad, thanks for tabulating all that shit together in the first place.
May I propose the only buff lasguns need in the form of a tier 4 blessing: Hair Trigger. Turns your lasgun fully automatic.
Now, if it needs the ultra-cynical power cycler treatment, make the tier 3 version fire at 60-75% max fire rate. Ezclap, fatshark can mail you my checque for all the work.
Btw, please don't stop. Thanks!
But muh recon lasguns :(
@@sturmmagnunstein1008 will get to have 2 blessing slots. Like all the non-power sword powered weapons =)
You can One Shot Body shot Scab Shooters with Opening Salvo for the 12 on Vet with Volley fire with more leeway (especially if you roll a native flak 3 perk and want to take unyielding). I wouldn't call that obscure per say.
Granted, I don't think headhunter is very good on the MG 12, it's far too unforgiving. I use deadly accurate 4 and Falter 3 hit blessing on a 378 base 12, but I think there's a big argument for using opening salvo. Especially for ammo efficiency. I would only use it on the 12, but I do feel like it's nice to have with the amount of shooters up 5 can throw at you to make up for a multitude of things.
One last thing I wanted to mention is Falter. Remember that the amount of overstagger you do manages your stagger duration. Your base gun can stagger bulwarks with a headshot, so you can essentially stunlock a bulwark when he swings or turns or gets up after getting hit with Falter 3/4. In fact, the stagger duration can be so long, often times you'll kill it before it becomes unstaggered. I think it's a neat yet overlooked perk, and I think the second perk is pretty flexible; especially if you're not using headhunter. I really do want to try Ghost 4/Deadly Accurate 4 on the 12 out, I got a really high level gun with that on it.
the mk X heavy laspistol outshines even the best infantry lasgun in every way. better damage, high critical chance, faster reload and higher rate of fire.
MGXII is a no brainer for damnation. Feels good one-shotting down range mobs.
I recall someone did the math, and if the Mk XII was using 5 ammo per shot instead of 3, it would be basically be on-par with the other lasguns.
Yup! The levels out the damage efficiency of the XII but also makes it less "forgiving" to use since your total damage output from a mag is now lower. If they went the route of increasing the cost, I think a fair balance for it is to actually increase its headshot mulitplier more, or even increase the base damage of the weapon! This makes it closer to an actual sniper (high single shots, low ammo) and would mix up the playstyle of the lasguns!
Great video
Thanks!
TBH with how much the other classes can crush it, they should buff the other guns for Vet rather than nerfing the XII. A talent to shred a target to increase its damage taken per shot (by only the Veteran using it) would do the trick. Something like 'Bore a Hole'. Faster weapons would stack it better. Perhaps making it only trigger on weak spot hits and critical hits, making it target-specific, and making it last a decent few seconds would work.
I found out that the headhunter autogun along with the combat and certain talents can instantly 2 shot a crusher or even a bulwark its fun 😂
Very good Video! I almost exclusively run a 379 base rating MG XII with both Lvl IV Deadly Accurate +Headhunter Combo, +25% on Flak & Unyielding. Best Weapon in my (virtual) Arsenal! Currently working on a Krieg Design for my real AR-10 because of it :D
Got Tier 4 deadly accurate and headhunter on me kantrael but my personal favorite vet weapon atm is my hellbore 2 cuz I can easily deal with literally any enemy type I can easily kill all gunner types flamers and even maulers reapers bullwarks and crushers
You and I! As far as range weapons go, I use my Helbore II more than I did the entire Kantrael Lasguns put together! There was something about the Helbores that felt just right in my hands...
you are a godsend
the shorter ones require too much clicking. same problem with the las pistol