Erikson here. Thank you so much, Riddhima, for this brave effort. I have never quite understood the vehemence of some fans regarding Felisin (well, let's be honest, yes, I can. It's about being judgmental, and I use that word pejoratively) Her story is about survival, the capacity to withstand suffering, and all that a life can be driven to do to itself and to others in order to persist. And with respect to the two potential inheritors of Sha'ik (Apsalar and Felisin), while the question is left to linger on who will take on the godhood role, in my own mind at least there was never any doubt. Because, of the two characters, only one had agency. In other words, only one earned the right, and as you say, she went through hell to get there. Sympathy is one thing, true empathy quite another. A writer unwilling to crawl into and wear the skin of a character, no matter how uncomfortable, does a disservice to that character, and by extension, to the reader as well. What each reader takes from that is, of course, up to them. My task is to not blink. Of all the storylines in Deadhouse Gates, I view my best writing as Felisin's. As for Baudin and Heboric, yes, they didn't handle it well. Maybe, in some sense, they were my stand-in for that type of person (all those real haters of Felisin seem to be male, don't they?) who either fail or refuse to understand Felisin. That said, be warned, Riddhima, I take very few easy paths in the novels ahead, and the Felisin/Tavore resolution will take, uh, a while before it is offered up to the reader.
ahhh! Thanks so much for watching my video and commenting. I wasn't sure whether it was intentional on your part for Heboric and Baudin to act the way that they do: it's incredibly validating to hear I wasn't too far off in saying that their behavior was a comment on victim blaming/rape culture. "A writer unwilling to crawl into and wear the skin of a character, no matter how uncomfortable, does a disservice to that character, and by extension, to the reader as well." Thank you for putting into words, much more eloquently than I did, the point that writing that doesn't properly explore the consequences *any* kind of violence is bad writing. I'll keep that about Felisin and Tavore in mind--I definitely don't think it will be an easy journey but I'm excited to be on it. Thank you again for taking the time to respond to my video!
Just wanted to say thanks for being my favorite modern author. I read Deadhouse Gates while dealing with my brothers addiction issues so I have a lot of respect for how you portrayed Felisin and the fact that you took the issue head on. I've read a lot of opinions by readers that are very superficial and frankly heartless so it goes to show how far we as a culture have to go with understanding and empathizing with victims of addiction and violence, which often go hand in hand.
Dear Mr. Erikson, I would love to know what research you did to write the character of Felisin so well. I still think of your descriptions of her experiences, emotions, and thoughts like "... A dead-end pocket" and ask myself, "How did he know?" I am in awe of your writing of her. Thank you for not blinking. Kind regards, Rawda
Thank you so much for your thoughtful, powerful essay. You helped me understand Felisin more deeply and provided a wider perspective on Baudin and Heboric's actions. I always thought Baudin was trying to save her, even getting burned in that flaming warren they entered for a while. But he's a much older, trained assassin who took advantage of a young, abused girl. Her contributions to the group and sacrifices to save Heboric's life were diminished then entirely overlooked. As you said, she was repeatedly berated for her abuse and forced addiction. I listened to the book on Audible, and I didn't appreciate it as deeply (I listened while doing dishes, etc.). Now that I'm reflecting on it, I'm appalled at how the adults around her broke her heart further with guilt until she was defeated, angry, and alone. No one stopped the abuse. No one made it right. Tavore sending her sister to a labor camp is cruel and appalling, and sending a secret guardian is an empty gesture. I don't believe this was "the only way to save her life." I have heard defenses of Tavore that she is a great tactician and military mind who is pragmatic and plays "the long game," and Felisin supporters are just too emotional to see it. Ha! Adjunct Tavore found a way to save the horses in the Paran stables but couldn't save her sister? I think the men that hate Felisin feel that women only want strong men with money to suck them dry, and Felisin was ungrateful and angry even though Baudin found a way out of the mines. Felisin becomes every girlfriend that rejected them, wife that divorced them and female boss that didn't value them. They do not understand the infliction of pain, forced helplessness and experience of betrayal, or, at least, they don't extend that understanding and empathy to Felisin. What a horrible world they must live in. Full of self-loathing and hatred for anyone different. If they are not disordered and have a functioning capacity for empathy at all. I am very moved and grateful to listen to your analysis and essay. Thank you for a great, critical perspective.
There are many really good MBotF videos on YT and a few great ones, and this one is one of the latter. You reframed things for me, particularly the relationship between Baudin and Felisin, and the links between Felisin and Apsalar. What really strikes me about Felisin is that people who are hurt so often end up hurting others. And this seems true of many characters in MBotF. In my job I work with many people who have undergone trauma, and often, they are difficult to "like". Not because they're not deserving of compassion and respect, but because the experience of prolonged exposure to horror has left them fearful, hostile and angry - they are the "heart sink" patients as we say in healthcare. But there but for the Grace of God go I. Surely, the thing about compassion is that it must be given to those who are sometimes difficult, as well as those who are always easy, to like.
Such an intelligent and thoughtful analysis on Felisin. Excellent comparisons between Felisin and Apsalar. Fantastic description of how Felisin's journey is not 'reduced to some feel-good-boss-girl moment' and the broader topic of the 'Bitch Problem.' Nothing so simple or generic about Felisin. Your analysis supports this while also providing a critique on female character tropes in fantasy. Loved it!
ah yeah, I made sure to include that because I got the feeling he'd be one of those characters whose actions get excused a lot, too. Thank you for watching!
Wow. This was such a beautiful essay. Thank you so much. Felisin is such a deep complex and interesting character as she deals with her trauma and her struggle just to survive at such a young age in the situation she is in. You put my thoughts and feelings into words so eloquently and concisely. When you compared the deaths of Baudin and Beneth to Duiker, it brought tears to my eyes. Again, thank you so much.
Your part at the end about how people write her off by just calling her a bitch choked me up a bit. I agree so much with you and the fact that so many of those people exist kind of ironically illuminate the point of us needing more empathy.
Such a concise and well thought out defence of Felisin (ridiculous that she even needs a "defence" in the first place). I think so often when people read about Felisin in DG they maybe don't quite understand what they're reading, or maybe that's just the only way I can try to understand why it is some people seem to hate her so much. So often in this series it's the characters that need and deserve our compassion the most are the ones that so often are met with the exact opposite. I know you're currently reading MOI, I'm not sure if you've met the Mhybe yet, but that would be one such example. Anyway, excellent video and big props for making it, I imagine it can't have been easy to tackle, it's a big topic and you handled it so well! Excited for you to continue on your Malazan journey.
I am starting this comment before the video. I'm really excited to watch this as Felisin is my favorite character in Deadhouse Gates. I found the tragedy of her story overwhelming and her strength and determination to survive and wade through hell to gain power despite it all inspiring. When I first read the book I wasn't part of the Malazan fandom at all. After finishing it I went to the subreddit to gush over her as a character, her arc, everything. And the first post I saw was just bashing her. Just dozens of people bashing her and it wasn't even the only Felisin hate thread on the first page. I left a few screeds on there defending her and haven't been back to the subreddit since. Anyway. I'm excited to watch this video. And now I've watched the video. You articulated many things I've struggled to put into words. I really appreciate this video and your perspective and insights. Thank you.
Watching your latest Malazan video and had to hop back to this one. Thank you for such a comprehensive yet concise explanation of Felisin (and Baudin). I don't have the literary analysis skills to make the kind of analysis you made here, but it feels like an expression of everything I felt about those two when I first read the book. I believe that is the mark of outstanding criticism.
I definitely did not read Deadhouse Gates carefully enough. Thanks Riddhima for this careful analysis it has made me really think through the story again. Contrasting the deaths of Baudin and Beneth with Duiker, and really breaking down Baudin's actions really clarified a character that was more ambiguous to me when I read it. Like I said, I want to read this book again more carefully. Thanks for the strong analysis.
@@r1ddhima Of course, I like fantasy esp Malazan but I was also really struck by your Women in WoT video. The Gardens of the Moon video was also great. Your reading about that weathervane made me realize often I lapse into reading too fast. I hope you consider another "close reading" video. Idk if there is a demand for it, or if it's something you want to do, but I think you would do it justice.
Thank you so much for bringing your perspective and touching on not only the character, but the surrounding meta-context in both other fiction and real life; extremely important conversation to have. Don’t feel bad about feeling as though you didn’t say everything there is to say. I’ve been thinking and occasionally briefly writing on her for 2 years and I still share that same feeling. The combination of the complex layers and depth to her psychology plus the emotion of the writing has left an impact that has yet to go away. What gets me the most is that you know, deep down, that she is sensitive, loving, and strong-willed, but you see how the blades of her virtues are double edged; causing such hurt, and how you see her twist into someone she is not. Fantasy sword fights where someone dies is sad, but to see an everyday person downward spiral and pathologically dig themselves deeper is profoundly more heartbreaking, relatable, and told me as an audience what kind of writer Erikson was and what kind of story he set out to tell. Im looking forward to your future thoughts on the series in general, but especially those of Felisin’s continued journey, and of Tavore as well.
Been waiting for this! Before I watch, one thing I think gets overlooked or understated a lot with this discussion is how the drug addiction aspect feeds into her character. At least in my opinion, and as far as I’ve seen with people in the throes of their addiction troubles. It really can make people bitter and hostile on its very own, but to add the rest of what Felisin goes through I think it just more shows how much this character is hurting and lost and has basically turned into a bitter vile thing in both defense of herself but also in a form of jealousy or contempt for people who are possibly coping in less horrible ways or coping better in general. I find the character fascinating for the sheer gall to write something so true to form but also so easily hateable while also keeping the sympathy and pain for a child. Absolutely fascinating.
I see a lot more Felisin defenders than hater, but I am only new to Malazan since about 15 months ago. I'm glad you spoke out on Felisin, and I'm sad you see people she needs defending from. I'm a fairly outspoken person myself, and if I had unkind thought about Felisin my sentiment never got heated enough to make me to go public and I am sure that I was mostly sympathetic toward Felisin, and I did not like Baudin at all but I think Duiker really tried his best to be compassionate.
This was so well done, thank you for putting in the time and effort to discuss such a sensitive and divisive subject. I am ashamed to admit that I hated Felisin the first time I read DG. I think I could not even fathom the depths Erikson could get to with his unique, subtle character work and was reading it like any other fantasy book, fearing he was building a weak minded, unlikable victim instead of the strong, noble, sexless female character I had come to want as a reaction to so many one dimensional, sexed-up tropes. But oddly enough, Felisin's story was the one that just kept coming back to me. Erikson had gotten through even without my knowing it and just by reflecting on her story months after reading it, it all fell into place. I was, and remain, in awe of the artfulness and authenticity of her character, and while I am still wildly disappointed in myself for my initial opinion, I think this is the point of Malazan. To show us a clearer picture of ourselves in how we react to others and then challenge those judgements. I can think of no higher praise than "it made me a better person", so I hope you keep reading and share your insights with us along the way. :)
Excellent analysis,The sacrifices she makes at the beginning of the story on the boat to basically keep them all alive is when she became one of the best character in the Malzan world for me and I really felt and understood the character and her story Arc the psychology behind everything that she goes through and the toll it takes on her hit me to my core when reading this book , it felt like Felsin was was suffering from Stockholm syndrome when she was being used by Beneth etc and someone so young would not come out of it with out mental scars and did not feel like she got the support or appreciation from her 2 much older companions. Felisin first instinct she tried to save herboric from those insects and ended getting bitten terribly and scared after they escaped. Ericsson writes brilliant female characters strong and bad ass but most of his characters live in the grey areas that makes them so powerful and well rounded character.
I completely agree. Felisin's story rocked me to my core and broke my heart. Erikson's writing about sexual violence and the resulting emotional experience: numb, angry, confused, reeling; self-endangering behavior, and even suicidal thoughts experienced by survivors is incredible. "Maybe it was what I lived through on the march to the galleys, maybe it was that sea of faces, the storm of hate and mindless fury, of the freedom and hunger to deliver pain writ so plain in all those so very normal faces. Maybe it was the people that sent me reeling... and could you be swift in ending it all, now? ...a dead-end pocket." I still think about that phrase, "...a dead-end pocket." And I think, "How did he know?" Thanks for the space to discuss this with other folks who understand, Rhiddima.
This is great, thank you! I'm on a podcast reviewing Deadhouse Gates right now and we've been stanning Felisin hard. Glad to see more readers doing so! Subscribed and rang that bell!
Thanks for this. Felisin is the character I was most moved by in DHG. When I started seeing a lot of the hatred around her I was appalled. This is an important topic and you handled it very well.
That was an argument that needed to be made. Thanks for putting yourself through it. And if I can add a thought, an expression of enormous character from Felisin was in what she didn’t do, in the latter third of Deadhouse Gates. Certainly she became insular, bitter, even resentful. But she doesn’t lash out, hoping to make other people experience what she did. Even the revenge she wants is restrained, especially compared with the brutality of Korbolo Dom and the whirlwind, or Beneth’s petty tyranny, or even Bauduin’s brutality in the opening prisoner march. A theme - perhaps the theme - of the series is the need for compassion. And resonates as truthfully in the petty cruelty of some comment sections on Twitter as it does int he events in the books. By the way, the music in the text blips between the sections of your essay, is that The Mummer’s Dance?
Haha- the music is just some random track I found on UA-cam studio’s free music library called “Beethoven trap” And so well said! People might criticize her for lashing out but she actually shows a remarkable amount of restraint as well. I know I wouldn’t be able to do the same in her shoes
Your opening sentence on this video is a perfect encapsulation of what goes through my mind when I read the posts on the Malazan subreddit, and other fantasy forums, deriding certain female characters. Congratulations on getting through that sentence without spitting it out in the burning acidic rage I think of it with. As a small aside (and absolutely not an attempt to change the conversation away from female issues) I see this sort of stuff happen to male characters as well, but on a scale that is much smaller. Any male character that is 'whiny' and doesn't have the power to back that 'whining' up, is usually disliked and potentially ridiculed by fans (this will come up later in the Malazan series, but a prime nerdy example is Shinji Ikari from Evangelion). However, the sheer level of dislike, and the intense vitriol, when it's a female character vs a male character is just obscene. I feel like the ending of this video is also a perfect encapsulation of my feelings on the matter as well. I have thought for a while on another unifying (or contrasting) element that tie Apsalar and Felisin together. 'Total possession by a god' and 'rape' are not the same thing (due to the lack of sexual element in the possession, at least in the case of Apsalar), but the possession that Apsalar went through is essentially a full penetration of her being against her will. For Apsalar, this was the start of a long and wide reaching trauma that she has to deal with, not unlike a rape survivor. For Felisin, the betrayal of Tavore, and the 'traditional rapes' (ugh) she experienced were the start of her intense trauma. For Apsalar the end of the possession forced upon her body was the beginning of her finding her own agency with the thoughts, feelings, and skills she was left with. For Felisin, the possession of the whirlwind goddess was just one more rape. It was the rape that would give her the agency and power to make it her last rape. More than anything else in Deadhouse Gates, that scene of Heboric watching the possessed Felisin broke me.
that's a very good point about male characters and i think it points to the toxic mindset of masculinity: men are rarely allowed to show emotions without being made to feel weak for it. it's awful.
Excellent analysis! I just read this last month and as a male reader, I definitely had to check myself on multiple occasions when I was starting to get annoyed with Felisin. Like, this teenage girl goes through a terribly hellish existence with zero support and after escaping the mines there were a couple of times when my internal monologue was basically "gosh why is Felisin so whiny?" I took note of the thought pattern and had to jerk my mind out of that thinking. If a teenage boy had gone through this and had acted similarly, I feel like people would be much more forgiving and talk about his depth. Erikson does such a good job of creating an actual gray character, totally justified in her unlikable-ness, and hating Felisin is absolutely an issue of sexism and misogyny in fandom. Thank you for making this video it really helped articulate a lot of similar feelings I was having, including about my own internalized misogyny.
Fantastic essay! Thank you for your courage to explore this difficult topic. I appreciate hearing the perspectives of others, shaped by their background and experiences. Before my recent re-read of Deadhouse Gates, I came across a review that characterized Felisin as a 🤬 and a totally despicable person. This opinion heightened my interest in her character. I have to say that I found her a compelling good person, with motivations to do good despite the horrors she endures. Yes, she does go into dark places, but in her shoes I am certain I would have lashed out more; been more vindictive; revelled in my hate. And I am a 50+ year old white guy, not a 16 year old teenager that has been torn from everything she has ever known. Just think back to when you were 16.
Exactly- she’s not perfect but neither should she be characterized as some kind of horrible person. It’s frustrating to see that, and I’m glad you resonated with my points. Thanks for watching ☺️
Had not thought about a Baudin Tavore connection. That will have to percolate a while.... I have seen other reviewers, some women, who didn't like her for all her internal dialogue. That it was just too much and didn't seem like it was from a 15 year old girl regardless of what she has gone through. And that I think is where some of the issues lie. She makes you feel uncomfortable. Some are intrigued and some it is just too much. Maybe too much reality in their fantasy. But liking the character and liking how a character is written are two different things. Jorg in the Broken Empire series is also a polarizing character in that he is despicable but also the main character. Or Thomas Covenant because of Donaldson's influence on Erickson. The writing of Felisin, and others, is both delicate and punishing at the same time. It is real and not dramatized. It shows without glorifying. Looking forward to future vids.
I won't be able to watch this for a couple weeks but I wanted to give the algorithm some food. Based on what I know this is a video that needed to be made!
Nicely thought out video. Appreciate you tackling the hard stuff in fiction. Can't say I've ever come across a portrayal of said topic in fiction that wasn't done badly or was even a bit sensitive to victims. Tend to skip over parts like that or just put down the book. It is a writing device that really shouldn't be used just to show how big bad the bad is. There are much better ways to accomplish this. Anyway. Well done.
Yes. I always felt the lack of women perspective about this topics. This was a great video ! Thank you. Honor mention to Counsellor of Moon's Spawn, who made a video about women and Malazan.
You put together nearly everything I feel when it comes to Felisin. Especially when it comes to the respectability of characters. The praise that male characters get for their "depth" that female characters are despised for blows my mind.
I'd like to say that for years there have been ongoing discussions specifically centered around how Erikson's characters are well-developed regardless of sex. In fact, one of the great celebrations of the series (by its fans) is that power has never been gate-kept by gender. I think your generalization that female character "depth" is seen as despicable whereas (and you imply here) that same depth is seen as positive in male characters is an irresponsible presumption. Malazan characters are (in my experience over the past 10 years engaging online with the series) measured by their choice of actions and judged thusly, regardless of fictional genitalia.
Thank you for an excellent video on an important topic, one not given enough attention, probably because it is so difficult to talk about objectively and civilly. I remember also not liking the Felisin arc on my first read through. Admittedly I was a lot younger and my read through of the series was over several years. On my re-read I realized the frustration and anger I felt was not judgemental or at Felisin the character at all, but at my own inability, as well as Baudin and Heborics, to steer Felisin from the path she so clearly was heading down. To clarify, I obviously do not think the direction and road was of her own choice. I think, or I guess more hope, that most peoples problems with Felisin stems from the same seed. One of our own faults and one of a society not yet matured and accustomed to talking and dealing with our own feelings and emotions around sexual assault, let alone the experience and emotions of the victims themselves. Which brings it back to the importance of discussing these topics in the first place. I hope you find a home here among the Malazan fandom and book-tubers and that you will read the rest of the series as I would love to see your take (not limited to these topics or female characters) on the rest of the series. From what I see from other "Malazan-tubers", it seems this audience does not shy away from longer videos or follow-ups if you wanted to delve deeper!
My feeling was that Felisins character was trying to make the people around her feel a certain way about her, and her actions and the way she speaks to people are a perfect illustration of that. Her inner dialogue kills me because she seems to want to be perceived differently. She doesn't want to be what she was made into, but cannot help but reflect the ugliness that she has been made to suffer. I was annoyed by her seeming haughtiness on my first read, I hate to but must admit, but that was a failure on my part to pick up on how young she was, and having been through it with a relative struggling what the addiction, it opened my eyes, and I saw her completely differently on my second and third reads. Thanks for this video.
Felisin is my favorite character in deadhouse gates I totally understand her after everything she has been through of course it would forever change her into a different person she has been betrayed by her sister been raped and beaten she's using drugs to cope with the trauma of what she has been through I really hate baudin for treating her like she was trash I didn't feel sorry for him when he died I don't understand why people hate her she is a child who has been through so much in her life not everybody could or would survive the same horrors that she has endured
You brought up a good point with Bauden and I think when people talk about Felisin lashing out at people “who are trying to help her” are severely missing the point at the role Bauden serves. Also the amount of cynicism in Heboric. They never tried to help her, they just judged and pitied her.
I'm a bit late, but until recent events i was not aware that there was such a bad reaction to felisin, I did not find her story easy or enjoyable to read, but I think that is kind of the point. Despite this I never disliked her, I could not imagine my own reaction to the scenarios she went through. though I suspect i would not make it as far as she did.
Great video, one of the best things about the whole rise of MalazTube are the nuanced views and analyses from different standpoints. Felisin is a great character, no doubt. She deserves people speaking out for her. However, I don't think it's just misogyny that gives her such a bad rep. That's part of it, and that needs to be addressed. But I also feel her story in DG is _so_ bleak, _so_ dark, and _so_ realistic that it offers mostly pain and depression to fully engage with it. And since she is the main pov, she takes the hit. Real life emulating the story.. It's easier to not engage and write the whole thing off as boring or whiny. As a side note, I do think you're selling Baudin short - he isn't the simple morally black monster you sketch him as here. But it's an Erikson book we're talking about so I think you know that. Not saying getting eaten by rats was unjustified, just saying I saw more nuance in his story as well. Hope you're doing well, keep these awesome videos coming. 🤘
Excellent video. Its surprisingly similar to Skyler White from Breaking Bad in terms of fan reception, I'm only 3 books in but I don't get the hate at all for Felisin (just as I dont understand the hate for Skyler White) I think Felisin's fascinating as a character.
Given the excessive hate Felisin does get on Malazan discussions somethime, I really appreciate this defense of her. She is definitely a great character. But I do want to push back somewhat on the likability point. Admittedly, there are certainly people who are excessively harsh on this point, and the reasons you point to probably do contribute to it. But I do think her "whininess" while totally understandable and believable, and contribute to what makes it an excellent character portrayal do make reading her pov wearying when getting to the later parts of the book. And since you mentioned WoT, I actually want to bring up a different character to help make my point; Perrin. There is a reason why "Perrin broods" is a hilarious meme, and its because he does brood a lot. There is one book in particular, iirc, where he becomes particularly melancholic due to something specific having happened (I'm being vague to avoid spoilers). Him being broody in that book is not only entirely believable, but also a pretty solid development of his character, in terms of him having to deal with the thing that he has to deal with. But his pov in that book, for me personally, became quite insufferable after a while. And it wasn't because his portrayal wasn't well done or believable, or even sympathetic. But reading a character's pov as they go through something like that, and they react to it the way a normal person might (as opposed to say the stoic hero or the somewhat omniscient hero who is confident in their ability to resolve the issue) gets old pretty quickly. And that is the lens through which I found myself viewing Felisin during the course of Deadhouse Gates. She was an excellent character, a believable character, and a sympathetic one. But precisely because of that, she behaves in a way, that reading her pov becomes quite draining after a while.
Great video. I think people could discuss Felisin for hours without end, but I guess the main thing that I agree with you on that frustrates me is that it's one thing to hate on a character for not being a good person, but another thing completely to ignore/disregard the characters horrific circumstances that have made them so. Also couldn't agree more regarding the last part about bashing female characters, if you're gonna hate on Egwene hate on Rand too 😅
Agree with most of what you say. But by emphasizing rape, you are also denying Felesin her agency. She sold herself first to the guards and then to Beneth, because her body was the only asset she thought she had. She pays a terrible price for her choice, and it’s entirely possible that she would have been denied the choice anyway, but she made the choice herself and for excellent reasons. I think it belittles her character to minimize that choice, and the consequences it brings (the addiction to protect herself, her impulses to lash out even when she knows she is doing wrong, etc...). As for Baudin, yes, he is a shit. But when he is cast out by Felesin, he clings to his duty to Tavore, and dies while saving Felesin from the d’ivers. So there is more to it than you are saying. Erikson doesn’t deal much in excuses, but he allows room for compassion and understanding. And I think that includes Baudin as well as Felesin.
I am pretty sure I already commented on this video, but somehow I think it didn't get posted, or I am extremely blind and can't see my own comment. I am really glad to see more people defending Felisin, I really feel she deserves it. Likewise, I never understood the hate and as I was reading her story I thought she was holding on better than I would have at her age during the same experiences. Thank you for this video, I found it great, don't hate it! :D
Sometimes UA-cam will randomly eat comments or move them to a spam folder, it’s super weird. Thanks for taking the time to comment again, I appreciate it ☺️ and yeah-I’m always down to go to bat for characters that deserve it
This is why I wish I had started reading sooner to participate in these discussions. Difficult task done well. So, in defense of Baudin if my timeline is correct, Felisin stole the knife after having sex. Does this change much in the way of a young woman and her capacity to consent, nope. However Baudin's view to the reader I think changes. It has been 6 months since I've read DhG, but I thought I remember this scene having a different feel. Also as who Baudin is / was for his life, it seems a bit difficult to expect anything emotionally spectacular with what a life of Talon ought to make a person.
i wanna come back and say that i respect the holy living shit out of the way you presented this video and represented the characterizations and context and everything. THAT SAID, the fact that you even felt a need to write a video WHEREIN A DEFENSE WAS INITIATED FOR FELISIN PARAN...... it's beyond sad. it's galling.
I have to be honest, when I first read dhg, I really hated Felisin and her arc in general in the book. Difficult to explain why, maybe because at that time, compare to the epic chain of dogs or the storyline of Apsalar and Crokus, I was less invested, or maybe because I did not get how young she was, and maybe because she was so humane and so real that I could not process her in this epic fantasy environment. But after going through the books and on my second reading, she clearly became one of my "favorite" character and story. I still "hate" the hole storyline, but I believe now for a good reason.
I can honestly say I did not like Felsin character. However I recognise she is a great character. It is just uncomfortable to read what she experiences and I so wish she had a friend in her corner that didn't blame her but supported her. I am grossly simplifying the character dymanics. Great character study and I also can't wait to read book three.
I don't see much in the way of folks on my side of the fence (Felisin is both deserving of our compassion as well as our contempt). So, I'd like to offer this brick of text to address why in a manner that actually reasons it out. Felisin is 14/15/16. For the record, she keeps getting called a child in discussions supporting her character. She is not a child, she is an adolescent. This distinction matters in so far as you will allow it to (transitional period into adulthood). I’ve read DG a couple of times now so it's fair to say I'm approaching an understanding of the cause and effect nature of Felisin’s personality insofar as it's presented in book 2-trauma having shaped her (beginning with suffering the first *injustice*…depending on whether or not one approaches the morality of the original culling from the stance of input or outcome). What happens to Felisin after the culling are certainly a slew of morally reprehensible actions, some of which are acts exacted upon her, some of which she determines she must enact upon herself. This distinction is also important. That said, let’s discuss why Felisin does not pass snuff/why she doesn't meet my standard to be respected. The question is: “what separates those who overcome the trauma and live life meaningfully from those who suffer at length” and let it eventually destroy them? Is it as simple as age? Sex? Time? Capacity? No. Of course not. I admit to being reductionist in what follows, but I’m not here to persuade you, only to try to extend a bridge so that even though we might disagree, we can at least understand one another (and dispense with the false and frustratingly presumptuous "if you feel this way you must not know any real survivors of trauma/ever sustained prolonged abuse yourself" narrative): For Felisin to overcome her chains of victimhood, she must overcome her “feelings of helplessness, hopelessness, and low self-esteem. She must not focus on blame, and she must avoid moral self-righteousness.” There is a line from a poem that goes: "It's okay to grow your wings on the way down." But she *does not do this or even try*. She does, more or less, the exact opposite. And when you're going downhill, you go faster and faster. Part of compassion is wishing to alleviate the suffering of others, but it's awfully hard to help those who refuse to help themselves. Felisin does not overcome her trauma; she embraces it knowingly as poison to both herself and the people around her (even her moments of “helping others” are viewed internally in a self-serving way [that which can be as easily taken away as given come her capricious whims], though I can forgive that since philanthropy is motivated by self-interest as a rule). She does this embracing of trauma, I think, as a means to feed the ressentiment (her sense of “weakness or her inferiority complex and perhaps even jealousy in the face of the "cause" [subjugating power] which generates a rejecting/justifying value system, or morality, which attacks or denies the perceived source of one's frustration”: Tavore/order/control. Is it any wonder she becomes the leader of the apocalypse cult?). So, she feeds this ressentiment to pave her unerring way to vengeance against, to drive the point in, *Tavore and what she represents*. Felisin chooses not to overcome because her motivations are not interested in living meaningfully. They are, and she is, interested only in destruction (mutually assured if that’s what it takes). So, when I say Felisin chooses to not “overcome her self-image of victimization” what I mean is that she chooses to remain bonded to being a victim in order to justify/feed her subsuming drive for vengeance. Felisin lacks a sustaining meaning, champions bitterness, vengefulness, anger, destructiveness, and we’re excusing that and are willing to claim she is a respectable character? Again, do I understand her motivations? Yes. Can I sympathize with them at some level? Yes. Can I empathize with her? Am I willing to wear her skin, to feel and understand? Do I feel compassion for Felisin? Am I willing to be a co-sufferer. Yes-after all, I did carefully read her chapters more than once and thought them through with care. What occurs to her seemingly without choice, and her autonomous choices both, left me deeply saddened. But to what degree that sadness was pity..well. And so this is where I diverge because I will not let my compassion justify or excuse her means. Is this pejorative judgement? Absolutely, but it’s absurd to assume that at any point one is not exacting this manner of judgement--we build up or tear down instantly as individuals are texts we read. We use what information we have to deem worthiness. By way of example, I would expect most, with little hesitation (snap pejorative judgement: unworthy of compassion), to not feel an abundance of compassion for a serial child murderer. One is deemed worthy of our compassion or not more often than should be the case; there’s no two ways about it. Without it we’d let permissiveness run entirely out of control. Felisin has earned my empathy, but she not earned my respect for the reasons above, and I will not simply give it to her or accept her choices because she has suffered so. Respect and acceptance are not compulsory, nor should they ever be; however, I would say that I agree with the notion that compassion should be freely given without expecting anything in trade. I would agree that is requisite for redemption. But this does not traverse over to respect, which is earned, nor acceptance. These are more complicated and come after. As a final point, Felisin is not acting in a vacuum either. There are those around who try to offer her consolation. Heboric tries to render her various losses more bearable by inviting “some shift in belief about the point of living a life that includes suffering. Thus, consolation implies a period of transition: a preparation for a time when the present suffering will have turned (sound familiar?). Consolation promises that turning.” But, Felisin denies this possibility, and she does it *on purpose*. To sum up my feelings: Felisin is repulsive to me, and my wife (who has a long history of working with trauma survivors and emotionally disturbed soldiers) both. We have talked this out at length. Our intense dislike of her has absolutely nothing to do with her sex, and everything to do with her choices when she does have agency. In addition, negative responsibility is worthy of our consideration for all characters, Felisin included. “An agent is responsible not only for the consequences she produces by her own actions, but that she is also responsible for consequences that she allows to happen by other agents or events she fails to prevent other agents from producing.” In the end, I agree that "compassion is a requisite for a meaningful existence and civilized society". But so too with what Silverfox says: "In all that is to come, think on forgiveness. Hold to it, but know too that it must not always be freely given." All said and done and in the inestimable words of the Dude: that’s just like, my opinion, man. PS: I would submit that your analysis of the Felisin/Baudin scene is well considered, but am frustrated that you stapled an invective to Baudin and called it good rather than attempting an exploration of *why* he chose not to simply "confront Felisin and take the knife back." There is so much nuance to it that tossing out "because Power" is a disservice. Keep up the great content. My post is to continue a conversation, not to negatively criticize. Anything that prompts me and others to engage this much means you're doing something right.
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Erikson here. Thank you so much, Riddhima, for this brave effort. I have never quite understood the vehemence of some fans regarding Felisin (well, let's be honest, yes, I can. It's about being judgmental, and I use that word pejoratively) Her story is about survival, the capacity to withstand suffering, and all that a life can be driven to do to itself and to others in order to persist. And with respect to the two potential inheritors of Sha'ik (Apsalar and Felisin), while the question is left to linger on who will take on the godhood role, in my own mind at least there was never any doubt. Because, of the two characters, only one had agency. In other words, only one earned the right, and as you say, she went through hell to get there. Sympathy is one thing, true empathy quite another. A writer unwilling to crawl into and wear the skin of a character, no matter how uncomfortable, does a disservice to that character, and by extension, to the reader as well. What each reader takes from that is, of course, up to them. My task is to not blink. Of all the storylines in Deadhouse Gates, I view my best writing as Felisin's. As for Baudin and Heboric, yes, they didn't handle it well. Maybe, in some sense, they were my stand-in for that type of person (all those real haters of Felisin seem to be male, don't they?) who either fail or refuse to understand Felisin. That said, be warned, Riddhima, I take very few easy paths in the novels ahead, and the Felisin/Tavore resolution will take, uh, a while before it is offered up to the reader.
ahhh! Thanks so much for watching my video and commenting. I wasn't sure whether it was intentional on your part for Heboric and Baudin to act the way that they do: it's incredibly validating to hear I wasn't too far off in saying that their behavior was a comment on victim blaming/rape culture.
"A writer unwilling to crawl into and wear the skin of a character, no matter how uncomfortable, does a disservice to that character, and by extension, to the reader as well." Thank you for putting into words, much more eloquently than I did, the point that writing that doesn't properly explore the consequences *any* kind of violence is bad writing.
I'll keep that about Felisin and Tavore in mind--I definitely don't think it will be an easy journey but I'm excited to be on it.
Thank you again for taking the time to respond to my video!
Just wanted to say thanks for being my favorite modern author. I read Deadhouse Gates while dealing with my brothers addiction issues so I have a lot of respect for how you portrayed Felisin and the fact that you took the issue head on. I've read a lot of opinions by readers that are very superficial and frankly heartless so it goes to show how far we as a culture have to go with understanding and empathizing with victims of addiction and violence, which often go hand in hand.
Dear Mr. Erikson,
I would love to know what research you did to write the character of Felisin so well. I still think of your descriptions of her experiences, emotions, and thoughts like "... A dead-end pocket" and ask myself, "How did he know?"
I am in awe of your writing of her. Thank you for not blinking.
Kind regards,
Rawda
@@theignorantninja That was simply and beautifully put. Thank you for sharing. I hope you and your brother are well. ❤
Thank you so much for your thoughtful, powerful essay. You helped me understand Felisin more deeply and provided a wider perspective on Baudin and Heboric's actions.
I always thought Baudin was trying to save her, even getting burned in that flaming warren they entered for a while. But he's a much older, trained assassin who took advantage of a young, abused girl. Her contributions to the group and sacrifices to save Heboric's life were diminished then entirely overlooked. As you said, she was repeatedly berated for her abuse and forced addiction. I listened to the book on Audible, and I didn't appreciate it as deeply (I listened while doing dishes, etc.). Now that I'm reflecting on it, I'm appalled at how the adults around her broke her heart further with guilt until she was defeated, angry, and alone. No one stopped the abuse. No one made it right.
Tavore sending her sister to a labor camp is cruel and appalling, and sending a secret guardian is an empty gesture. I don't believe this was "the only way to save her life." I have heard defenses of Tavore that she is a great tactician and military mind who is pragmatic and plays "the long game," and Felisin supporters are just too emotional to see it. Ha! Adjunct Tavore found a way to save the horses in the Paran stables but couldn't save her sister?
I think the men that hate Felisin feel that women only want strong men with money to suck them dry, and Felisin was ungrateful and angry even though Baudin found a way out of the mines. Felisin becomes every girlfriend that rejected them, wife that divorced them and female boss that didn't value them. They do not understand the infliction of pain, forced helplessness and experience of betrayal, or, at least, they don't extend that understanding and empathy to Felisin. What a horrible world they must live in. Full of self-loathing and hatred for anyone different. If they are not disordered and have a functioning capacity for empathy at all.
I am very moved and grateful to listen to your analysis and essay. Thank you for a great, critical perspective.
There are many really good MBotF videos on YT and a few great ones, and this one is one of the latter. You reframed things for me, particularly the relationship between Baudin and Felisin, and the links between Felisin and Apsalar. What really strikes me about Felisin is that people who are hurt so often end up hurting others. And this seems true of many characters in MBotF. In my job I work with many people who have undergone trauma, and often, they are difficult to "like". Not because they're not deserving of compassion and respect, but because the experience of prolonged exposure to horror has left them fearful, hostile and angry - they are the "heart sink" patients as we say in healthcare. But there but for the Grace of God go I. Surely, the thing about compassion is that it must be given to those who are sometimes difficult, as well as those who are always easy, to like.
This video is just so well done. Damn!
Ahh thanks for watching 😊
Such an intelligent and thoughtful analysis on Felisin. Excellent comparisons between Felisin and Apsalar. Fantastic description of how Felisin's journey is not 'reduced to some feel-good-boss-girl moment' and the broader topic of the 'Bitch Problem.' Nothing so simple or generic about Felisin. Your analysis supports this while also providing a critique on female character tropes in fantasy. Loved it!
I’m so glad you liked this video, thank you Johanna!!
I really appreciated that you addressed Baudin’s appalling mistreatment of Felisin. It seems like a lot of people don’t think he did anything wrong.
ah yeah, I made sure to include that because I got the feeling he'd be one of those characters whose actions get excused a lot, too. Thank you for watching!
Wow. This was such a beautiful essay. Thank you so much. Felisin is such a deep complex and interesting character as she deals with her trauma and her struggle just to survive at such a young age in the situation she is in. You put my thoughts and feelings into words so eloquently and concisely. When you compared the deaths of Baudin and Beneth to Duiker, it brought tears to my eyes. Again, thank you so much.
Your part at the end about how people write her off by just calling her a bitch choked me up a bit. I agree so much with you and the fact that so many of those people exist kind of ironically illuminate the point of us needing more empathy.
Such a concise and well thought out defence of Felisin (ridiculous that she even needs a "defence" in the first place). I think so often when people read about Felisin in DG they maybe don't quite understand what they're reading, or maybe that's just the only way I can try to understand why it is some people seem to hate her so much. So often in this series it's the characters that need and deserve our compassion the most are the ones that so often are met with the exact opposite. I know you're currently reading MOI, I'm not sure if you've met the Mhybe yet, but that would be one such example.
Anyway, excellent video and big props for making it, I imagine it can't have been easy to tackle, it's a big topic and you handled it so well!
Excited for you to continue on your Malazan journey.
This is probably the hardest video I’ve ever made so I’m glad it’s having it’s intended purpose. Thank you for watching 😊
I am starting this comment before the video. I'm really excited to watch this as Felisin is my favorite character in Deadhouse Gates. I found the tragedy of her story overwhelming and her strength and determination to survive and wade through hell to gain power despite it all inspiring. When I first read the book I wasn't part of the Malazan fandom at all. After finishing it I went to the subreddit to gush over her as a character, her arc, everything. And the first post I saw was just bashing her. Just dozens of people bashing her and it wasn't even the only Felisin hate thread on the first page. I left a few screeds on there defending her and haven't been back to the subreddit since. Anyway. I'm excited to watch this video.
And now I've watched the video. You articulated many things I've struggled to put into words. I really appreciate this video and your perspective and insights. Thank you.
I know! Isn't it a powerful, clear-eyed, insightful analysis?
Watching your latest Malazan video and had to hop back to this one. Thank you for such a comprehensive yet concise explanation of Felisin (and Baudin). I don't have the literary analysis skills to make the kind of analysis you made here, but it feels like an expression of everything I felt about those two when I first read the book. I believe that is the mark of outstanding criticism.
thank you!!
I definitely did not read Deadhouse Gates carefully enough. Thanks Riddhima for this careful analysis it has made me really think through the story again. Contrasting the deaths of Baudin and Beneth with Duiker, and really breaking down Baudin's actions really clarified a character that was more ambiguous to me when I read it. Like I said, I want to read this book again more carefully. Thanks for the strong analysis.
I’m so happy you found something insightful from my video ☺️ thank you for watching
@@r1ddhima Of course, I like fantasy esp Malazan but I was also really struck by your Women in WoT video. The Gardens of the Moon video was also great. Your reading about that weathervane made me realize often I lapse into reading too fast. I hope you consider another "close reading" video. Idk if there is a demand for it, or if it's something you want to do, but I think you would do it justice.
Thank you so much for bringing your perspective and touching on not only the character, but the surrounding meta-context in both other fiction and real life; extremely important conversation to have.
Don’t feel bad about feeling as though you didn’t say everything there is to say. I’ve been thinking and occasionally briefly writing on her for 2 years and I still share that same feeling.
The combination of the complex layers and depth to her psychology plus the emotion of the writing has left an impact that has yet to go away. What gets me the most is that you know, deep down, that she is sensitive, loving, and strong-willed, but you see how the blades of her virtues are double edged; causing such hurt, and how you see her twist into someone she is not. Fantasy sword fights where someone dies is sad, but to see an everyday person downward spiral and pathologically dig themselves deeper is profoundly more heartbreaking, relatable, and told me as an audience what kind of writer Erikson was and what kind of story he set out to tell.
Im looking forward to your future thoughts on the series in general, but especially those of Felisin’s continued journey, and of Tavore as well.
Beautifully put!! You should definitely try writing about her, I’d love to read your thoughts
Beautifully said!!
Been waiting for this! Before I watch, one thing I think gets overlooked or understated a lot with this discussion is how the drug addiction aspect feeds into her character. At least in my opinion, and as far as I’ve seen with people in the throes of their addiction troubles. It really can make people bitter and hostile on its very own, but to add the rest of what Felisin goes through I think it just more shows how much this character is hurting and lost and has basically turned into a bitter vile thing in both defense of herself but also in a form of jealousy or contempt for people who are possibly coping in less horrible ways or coping better in general. I find the character fascinating for the sheer gall to write something so true to form but also so easily hateable while also keeping the sympathy and pain for a child. Absolutely fascinating.
yeah you can't really divorce felisin's character from her addictions and age, they are essential when discussing her arc. well put!
I see a lot more Felisin defenders than hater, but I am only new to Malazan since about 15 months ago. I'm glad you spoke out on Felisin, and I'm sad you see people she needs defending from. I'm a fairly outspoken person myself, and if I had unkind thought about Felisin my sentiment never got heated enough to make me to go public and I am sure that I was mostly sympathetic toward Felisin, and I did not like Baudin at all but I think Duiker really tried his best to be compassionate.
This was so well done, thank you for putting in the time and effort to discuss such a sensitive and divisive subject. I am ashamed to admit that I hated Felisin the first time I read DG. I think I could not even fathom the depths Erikson could get to with his unique, subtle character work and was reading it like any other fantasy book, fearing he was building a weak minded, unlikable victim instead of the strong, noble, sexless female character I had come to want as a reaction to so many one dimensional, sexed-up tropes. But oddly enough, Felisin's story was the one that just kept coming back to me. Erikson had gotten through even without my knowing it and just by reflecting on her story months after reading it, it all fell into place. I was, and remain, in awe of the artfulness and authenticity of her character, and while I am still wildly disappointed in myself for my initial opinion, I think this is the point of Malazan. To show us a clearer picture of ourselves in how we react to others and then challenge those judgements. I can think of no higher praise than "it made me a better person", so I hope you keep reading and share your insights with us along the way. :)
Beautiful, powerful reflection and well-said. Thank you for sharing! ❤
Excellent analysis,The sacrifices she makes at the beginning of the story on the boat to basically keep them all alive is when she became one of the best character in the Malzan world for me and I really felt and understood the character and her story Arc the psychology behind everything that she goes through and the toll it takes on her hit me to my core when reading this book , it felt like Felsin was was suffering from Stockholm syndrome when she was being used by Beneth etc and someone so young would not come out of it with out mental scars and did not feel like she got the support or appreciation from her 2 much older companions. Felisin first instinct she tried to save herboric from those insects and ended getting bitten terribly and scared after they escaped. Ericsson writes brilliant female characters strong and bad ass but most of his characters live in the grey areas that makes them so powerful and well rounded character.
I completely agree. Felisin's story rocked me to my core and broke my heart. Erikson's writing about sexual violence and the resulting emotional experience: numb, angry, confused, reeling; self-endangering behavior, and even suicidal thoughts experienced by survivors is incredible.
"Maybe it was what I lived through on the march to the galleys, maybe it was that sea of faces, the storm of hate and mindless fury, of the freedom and hunger to deliver pain writ so plain in all those so very normal faces. Maybe it was the people that sent me reeling... and could you be swift in ending it all, now? ...a dead-end pocket."
I still think about that phrase, "...a dead-end pocket." And I think, "How did he know?"
Thanks for the space to discuss this with other folks who understand, Rhiddima.
This is great, thank you! I'm on a podcast reviewing Deadhouse Gates right now and we've been stanning Felisin hard. Glad to see more readers doing so! Subscribed and rang that bell!
An important topic, good job for addressing. RAFO
Thank you, I’m already reading MoI and it’s a great time! 😊
Thanks for this. Felisin is the character I was most moved by in DHG. When I started seeing a lot of the hatred around her I was appalled. This is an important topic and you handled it very well.
Thank you for your kind words :,)
That was an argument that needed to be made. Thanks for putting yourself through it.
And if I can add a thought, an expression of enormous character from Felisin was in what she didn’t do, in the latter third of Deadhouse Gates. Certainly she became insular, bitter, even resentful. But she doesn’t lash out, hoping to make other people experience what she did. Even the revenge she wants is restrained, especially compared with the brutality of Korbolo Dom and the whirlwind, or Beneth’s petty tyranny, or even Bauduin’s brutality in the opening prisoner march.
A theme - perhaps the theme - of the series is the need for compassion. And resonates as truthfully in the petty cruelty of some comment sections on Twitter as it does int he events in the books.
By the way, the music in the text blips between the sections of your essay, is that The Mummer’s Dance?
Haha- the music is just some random track I found on UA-cam studio’s free music library called “Beethoven trap”
And so well said! People might criticize her for lashing out but she actually shows a remarkable amount of restraint as well. I know I wouldn’t be able to do the same in her shoes
Your opening sentence on this video is a perfect encapsulation of what goes through my mind when I read the posts on the Malazan subreddit, and other fantasy forums, deriding certain female characters. Congratulations on getting through that sentence without spitting it out in the burning acidic rage I think of it with.
As a small aside (and absolutely not an attempt to change the conversation away from female issues) I see this sort of stuff happen to male characters as well, but on a scale that is much smaller. Any male character that is 'whiny' and doesn't have the power to back that 'whining' up, is usually disliked and potentially ridiculed by fans (this will come up later in the Malazan series, but a prime nerdy example is Shinji Ikari from Evangelion). However, the sheer level of dislike, and the intense vitriol, when it's a female character vs a male character is just obscene. I feel like the ending of this video is also a perfect encapsulation of my feelings on the matter as well.
I have thought for a while on another unifying (or contrasting) element that tie Apsalar and Felisin together. 'Total possession by a god' and 'rape' are not the same thing (due to the lack of sexual element in the possession, at least in the case of Apsalar), but the possession that Apsalar went through is essentially a full penetration of her being against her will. For Apsalar, this was the start of a long and wide reaching trauma that she has to deal with, not unlike a rape survivor. For Felisin, the betrayal of Tavore, and the 'traditional rapes' (ugh) she experienced were the start of her intense trauma. For Apsalar the end of the possession forced upon her body was the beginning of her finding her own agency with the thoughts, feelings, and skills she was left with. For Felisin, the possession of the whirlwind goddess was just one more rape. It was the rape that would give her the agency and power to make it her last rape. More than anything else in Deadhouse Gates, that scene of Heboric watching the possessed Felisin broke me.
that's a very good point about male characters and i think it points to the toxic mindset of masculinity: men are rarely allowed to show emotions without being made to feel weak for it. it's awful.
Excellent analysis! I just read this last month and as a male reader, I definitely had to check myself on multiple occasions when I was starting to get annoyed with Felisin. Like, this teenage girl goes through a terribly hellish existence with zero support and after escaping the mines there were a couple of times when my internal monologue was basically "gosh why is Felisin so whiny?" I took note of the thought pattern and had to jerk my mind out of that thinking. If a teenage boy had gone through this and had acted similarly, I feel like people would be much more forgiving and talk about his depth.
Erikson does such a good job of creating an actual gray character, totally justified in her unlikable-ness, and hating Felisin is absolutely an issue of sexism and misogyny in fandom. Thank you for making this video it really helped articulate a lot of similar feelings I was having, including about my own internalized misogyny.
SO well put. Great points about how Felisin is a teenager. Thank you for watching
" If a teenage boy had gone through this and had acted similarly, I feel like people would be much more forgiving and talk about his depth" --No.
@@sweetlard2113 wow what a response, so deep and thorough!
@@slidenaway Concision, baby.
Really glad you decided to make this video! Definitely going to sub.
Fantastic essay! Thank you for your courage to explore this difficult topic. I appreciate hearing the perspectives of others, shaped by their background and experiences. Before my recent re-read of Deadhouse Gates, I came across a review that characterized Felisin as a 🤬 and a totally despicable person. This opinion heightened my interest in her character. I have to say that I found her a compelling good person, with motivations to do good despite the horrors she endures. Yes, she does go into dark places, but in her shoes I am certain I would have lashed out more; been more vindictive; revelled in my hate. And I am a 50+ year old white guy, not a 16 year old teenager that has been torn from everything she has ever known. Just think back to when you were 16.
Exactly- she’s not perfect but neither should she be characterized as some kind of horrible person. It’s frustrating to see that, and I’m glad you resonated with my points. Thanks for watching ☺️
Had not thought about a Baudin Tavore connection. That will have to percolate a while....
I have seen other reviewers, some women, who didn't like her for all her internal dialogue. That it was just too much and didn't seem like it was from a 15 year old girl regardless of what she has gone through. And that I think is where some of the issues lie.
She makes you feel uncomfortable. Some are intrigued and some it is just too much. Maybe too much reality in their fantasy.
But liking the character and liking how a character is written are two different things. Jorg in the Broken Empire series is also a polarizing character in that he is despicable but also the main character. Or Thomas Covenant because of Donaldson's influence on Erickson.
The writing of Felisin, and others, is both delicate and punishing at the same time. It is real and not dramatized. It shows without glorifying.
Looking forward to future vids.
Hey Riddhima ! Thank you for your take on Felisin ! Can't wait to hear your reactions to the rest of the series :)
I won't be able to watch this for a couple weeks but I wanted to give the algorithm some food. Based on what I know this is a video that needed to be made!
I would die for you Clara
Nicely thought out video. Appreciate you tackling the hard stuff in fiction. Can't say I've ever come across a portrayal of said topic in fiction that wasn't done badly or was even a bit sensitive to victims. Tend to skip over parts like that or just put down the book. It is a writing device that really shouldn't be used just to show how big bad the bad is. There are much better ways to accomplish this. Anyway. Well done.
I totally agree that there are sooo many ways to show a villain is evil without resorting to sexual assault!! thank you for watching :)
Yes. I always felt the lack of women perspective about this topics. This was a great video ! Thank you.
Honor mention to Counsellor of Moon's Spawn, who made a video about women and Malazan.
cheers to more women making fantasy content
You put together nearly everything I feel when it comes to Felisin. Especially when it comes to the respectability of characters. The praise that male characters get for their "depth" that female characters are despised for blows my mind.
👏 thank you!!
I'd like to say that for years there have been ongoing discussions specifically centered around how Erikson's characters are well-developed regardless of sex. In fact, one of the great celebrations of the series (by its fans) is that power has never been gate-kept by gender. I think your generalization that female character "depth" is seen as despicable whereas (and you imply here) that same depth is seen as positive in male characters is an irresponsible presumption. Malazan characters are (in my experience over the past 10 years engaging online with the series) measured by their choice of actions and judged thusly, regardless of fictional genitalia.
Thank you for an excellent video on an important topic, one not given enough attention, probably because it is so difficult to talk about objectively and civilly.
I remember also not liking the Felisin arc on my first read through. Admittedly I was a lot younger and my read through of the series was over several years. On my re-read I realized the frustration and anger I felt was not judgemental or at Felisin the character at all, but at my own inability, as well as Baudin and Heborics, to steer Felisin from the path she so clearly was heading down. To clarify, I obviously do not think the direction and road was of her own choice.
I think, or I guess more hope, that most peoples problems with Felisin stems from the same seed. One of our own faults and one of a society not yet matured and accustomed to talking and dealing with our own feelings and emotions around sexual assault, let alone the experience and emotions of the victims themselves. Which brings it back to the importance of discussing these topics in the first place.
I hope you find a home here among the Malazan fandom and book-tubers and that you will read the rest of the series as I would love to see your take (not limited to these topics or female characters) on the rest of the series.
From what I see from other "Malazan-tubers", it seems this audience does not shy away from longer videos or follow-ups if you wanted to delve deeper!
Loved to hear your thoughts about this, thanks! I generally feel the same way as you did.
thank you for watching! 😊
Well done. Really enjoyed this articulate argument.
My feeling was that Felisins character was trying to make the people around her feel a certain way about her, and her actions and the way she speaks to people are a perfect illustration of that. Her inner dialogue kills me because she seems to want to be perceived differently. She doesn't want to be what she was made into, but cannot help but reflect the ugliness that she has been made to suffer. I was annoyed by her seeming haughtiness on my first read, I hate to but must admit, but that was a failure on my part to pick up on how young she was, and having been through it with a relative struggling what the addiction, it opened my eyes, and I saw her completely differently on my second and third reads. Thanks for this video.
Her inner dialogue is indeed very harrowing, and so hard to read. She is heartbreaking. Thanks for watching :)
Can't watch cause spoilers but look forward to coming back after I read DHG 🙂
Felisin is my favorite character in deadhouse gates I totally understand her after everything she has been through of course it would forever change her into a different person she has been betrayed by her sister been raped and beaten she's using drugs to cope with the trauma of what she has been through I really hate baudin for treating her like she was trash I didn't feel sorry for him when he died I don't understand why people hate her she is a child who has been through so much in her life not everybody could or would survive the same horrors that she has endured
You brought up a good point with Bauden and I think when people talk about Felisin lashing out at people “who are trying to help her” are severely missing the point at the role Bauden serves. Also the amount of cynicism in Heboric. They never tried to help her, they just judged and pitied her.
Yes, they shame her for things she couldn’t control, even though she tries to help them at every turn.
Yes glad someone understands that baudin and heboric didn't really help her they judged her
I am excited for a follow vid on Felisin after you have made it farther in the series.
I'm a bit late, but until recent events i was not aware that there was such a bad reaction to felisin, I did not find her story easy or enjoyable to read, but I think that is kind of the point. Despite this I never disliked her, I could not imagine my own reaction to the scenarios she went through. though I suspect i would not make it as far as she did.
Great insights! Thank you for this, I learned a lot.
Great video, one of the best things about the whole rise of MalazTube are the nuanced views and analyses from different standpoints.
Felisin is a great character, no doubt. She deserves people speaking out for her.
However, I don't think it's just misogyny that gives her such a bad rep. That's part of it, and that needs to be addressed.
But I also feel her story in DG is _so_ bleak, _so_ dark, and _so_ realistic that it offers mostly pain and depression to fully engage with it. And since she is the main pov, she takes the hit. Real life emulating the story.. It's easier to not engage and write the whole thing off as boring or whiny.
As a side note, I do think you're selling Baudin short - he isn't the simple morally black monster you sketch him as here. But it's an Erikson book we're talking about so I think you know that.
Not saying getting eaten by rats was unjustified, just saying I saw more nuance in his story as well.
Hope you're doing well, keep these awesome videos coming. 🤘
A great analysis. When you get to House of Chains, I'd love to hear your further thoughts about the characters there.
For sure! Thanks for watching 😊
Excellent video.
Its surprisingly similar to Skyler White from Breaking Bad in terms of fan reception, I'm only 3 books in but I don't get the hate at all for Felisin (just as I dont understand the hate for Skyler White) I think Felisin's fascinating as a character.
Given the excessive hate Felisin does get on Malazan discussions somethime, I really appreciate this defense of her. She is definitely a great character. But I do want to push back somewhat on the likability point. Admittedly, there are certainly people who are excessively harsh on this point, and the reasons you point to probably do contribute to it. But I do think her "whininess" while totally understandable and believable, and contribute to what makes it an excellent character portrayal do make reading her pov wearying when getting to the later parts of the book. And since you mentioned WoT, I actually want to bring up a different character to help make my point; Perrin. There is a reason why "Perrin broods" is a hilarious meme, and its because he does brood a lot. There is one book in particular, iirc, where he becomes particularly melancholic due to something specific having happened (I'm being vague to avoid spoilers). Him being broody in that book is not only entirely believable, but also a pretty solid development of his character, in terms of him having to deal with the thing that he has to deal with. But his pov in that book, for me personally, became quite insufferable after a while. And it wasn't because his portrayal wasn't well done or believable, or even sympathetic. But reading a character's pov as they go through something like that, and they react to it the way a normal person might (as opposed to say the stoic hero or the somewhat omniscient hero who is confident in their ability to resolve the issue) gets old pretty quickly. And that is the lens through which I found myself viewing Felisin during the course of Deadhouse Gates. She was an excellent character, a believable character, and a sympathetic one. But precisely because of that, she behaves in a way, that reading her pov becomes quite draining after a while.
Great video. I think people could discuss Felisin for hours without end, but I guess the main thing that I agree with you on that frustrates me is that it's one thing to hate on a character for not being a good person, but another thing completely to ignore/disregard the characters horrific circumstances that have made them so. Also couldn't agree more regarding the last part about bashing female characters, if you're gonna hate on Egwene hate on Rand too 😅
👏 thank you! Egwene and Rand literally have parallel character arcs lol. Thanks for watching ☺️
This is excellent. Keep 'em coming!
Thank you, I’ll try my darndest ☺️
Agree with most of what you say. But by emphasizing rape, you are also denying Felesin her agency. She sold herself first to the guards and then to Beneth, because her body was the only asset she thought she had. She pays a terrible price for her choice, and it’s entirely possible that she would have been denied the choice anyway, but she made the choice herself and for excellent reasons. I think it belittles her character to minimize that choice, and the consequences it brings (the addiction to protect herself, her impulses to lash out even when she knows she is doing wrong, etc...).
As for Baudin, yes, he is a shit. But when he is cast out by Felesin, he clings to his duty to Tavore, and dies while saving Felesin from the d’ivers. So there is more to it than you are saying. Erikson doesn’t deal much in excuses, but he allows room for compassion and understanding. And I think that includes Baudin as well as Felesin.
good vid , interesting
Thank you
I am pretty sure I already commented on this video, but somehow I think it didn't get posted, or I am extremely blind and can't see my own comment.
I am really glad to see more people defending Felisin, I really feel she deserves it. Likewise, I never understood the hate and as I was reading her story I thought she was holding on better than I would have at her age during the same experiences. Thank you for this video, I found it great, don't hate it! :D
Sometimes UA-cam will randomly eat comments or move them to a spam folder, it’s super weird. Thanks for taking the time to comment again, I appreciate it ☺️ and yeah-I’m always down to go to bat for characters that deserve it
This is why I wish I had started reading sooner to participate in these discussions. Difficult task done well. So, in defense of Baudin if my timeline is correct, Felisin stole the knife after having sex. Does this change much in the way of a young woman and her capacity to consent, nope. However Baudin's view to the reader I think changes. It has been 6 months since I've read DhG, but I thought I remember this scene having a different feel. Also as who Baudin is / was for his life, it seems a bit difficult to expect anything emotionally spectacular with what a life of Talon ought to make a person.
i wanna come back and say that i respect the holy living shit out of the way you presented this video and represented the characterizations and context and everything.
THAT SAID, the fact that you even felt a need to write a video WHEREIN A DEFENSE WAS INITIATED FOR FELISIN PARAN...... it's beyond sad. it's galling.
Thank you for watching 😊 I understand exactly where you’re coming from
I have to be honest, when I first read dhg, I really hated Felisin and her arc in general in the book.
Difficult to explain why, maybe because at that time, compare to the epic chain of dogs or the storyline of Apsalar and Crokus, I was less invested, or maybe because I did not get how young she was, and maybe because she was so humane and so real that I could not process her in this epic fantasy environment.
But after going through the books and on my second reading, she clearly became one of my "favorite" character and story.
I still "hate" the hole storyline, but I believe now for a good reason.
Wow. Nice work.
I can honestly say I did not like Felsin character. However I recognise she is a great character. It is just uncomfortable to read what she experiences and I so wish she had a friend in her corner that didn't blame her but supported her. I am grossly simplifying the character dymanics. Great character study and I also can't wait to read book three.
I don't see much in the way of folks on my side of the fence (Felisin is both deserving of our compassion as well as our contempt). So, I'd like to offer this brick of text to address why in a manner that actually reasons it out.
Felisin is 14/15/16. For the record, she keeps getting called a child in discussions supporting her character. She is not a child, she is an adolescent. This distinction matters in so far as you will allow it to (transitional period into adulthood).
I’ve read DG a couple of times now so it's fair to say I'm approaching an understanding of the cause and effect nature of Felisin’s personality insofar as it's presented in book 2-trauma having shaped her (beginning with suffering the first *injustice*…depending on whether or not one approaches the morality of the original culling from the stance of input or outcome).
What happens to Felisin after the culling are certainly a slew of morally reprehensible actions, some of which are acts exacted upon her, some of which she determines she must enact upon herself. This distinction is also important.
That said, let’s discuss why Felisin does not pass snuff/why she doesn't meet my standard to be respected.
The question is: “what separates those who overcome the trauma and live life meaningfully from those who suffer at length” and let it eventually destroy them? Is it as simple as age? Sex? Time? Capacity? No. Of course not.
I admit to being reductionist in what follows, but I’m not here to persuade you, only to try to extend a bridge so that even though we might disagree, we can at least understand one another (and dispense with the false and frustratingly presumptuous "if you feel this way you must not know any real survivors of trauma/ever sustained prolonged abuse yourself" narrative):
For Felisin to overcome her chains of victimhood, she must overcome her “feelings of helplessness, hopelessness, and low self-esteem. She must not focus on blame, and she must avoid moral self-righteousness.” There is a line from a poem that goes: "It's okay to grow your wings on the way down." But she *does not do this or even try*. She does, more or less, the exact opposite. And when you're going downhill, you go faster and faster. Part of compassion is wishing to alleviate the suffering of others, but it's awfully hard to help those who refuse to help themselves.
Felisin does not overcome her trauma; she embraces it knowingly as poison to both herself and the people around her (even her moments of “helping others” are viewed internally in a self-serving way [that which can be as easily taken away as given come her capricious whims], though I can forgive that since philanthropy is motivated by self-interest as a rule). She does this embracing of trauma, I think, as a means to feed the ressentiment (her sense of “weakness or her inferiority complex and perhaps even jealousy in the face of the "cause" [subjugating power] which generates a rejecting/justifying value system, or morality, which attacks or denies the perceived source of one's frustration”: Tavore/order/control. Is it any wonder she becomes the leader of the apocalypse cult?). So, she feeds this ressentiment to pave her unerring way to vengeance against, to drive the point in, *Tavore and what she represents*. Felisin chooses not to overcome because her motivations are not interested in living meaningfully. They are, and she is, interested only in destruction (mutually assured if that’s what it takes). So, when I say Felisin chooses to not “overcome her self-image of victimization” what I mean is that she chooses to remain bonded to being a victim in order to justify/feed her subsuming drive for vengeance. Felisin lacks a sustaining meaning, champions bitterness, vengefulness, anger, destructiveness, and we’re excusing that and are willing to claim she is a respectable character?
Again, do I understand her motivations? Yes. Can I sympathize with them at some level? Yes. Can I empathize with her? Am I willing to wear her skin, to feel and understand? Do I feel compassion for Felisin? Am I willing to be a co-sufferer. Yes-after all, I did carefully read her chapters more than once and thought them through with care. What occurs to her seemingly without choice, and her autonomous choices both, left me deeply saddened. But to what degree that sadness was pity..well.
And so this is where I diverge because I will not let my compassion justify or excuse her means. Is this pejorative judgement? Absolutely, but it’s absurd to assume that at any point one is not exacting this manner of judgement--we build up or tear down instantly as individuals are texts we read. We use what information we have to deem worthiness. By way of example, I would expect most, with little hesitation (snap pejorative judgement: unworthy of compassion), to not feel an abundance of compassion for a serial child murderer. One is deemed worthy of our compassion or not more often than should be the case; there’s no two ways about it. Without it we’d let permissiveness run entirely out of control. Felisin has earned my empathy, but she not earned my respect for the reasons above, and I will not simply give it to her or accept her choices because she has suffered so. Respect and acceptance are not compulsory, nor should they ever be; however, I would say that I agree with the notion that compassion should be freely given without expecting anything in trade. I would agree that is requisite for redemption. But this does not traverse over to respect, which is earned, nor acceptance. These are more complicated and come after.
As a final point, Felisin is not acting in a vacuum either. There are those around who try to offer her consolation. Heboric tries to render her various losses more bearable by inviting “some shift in belief about the point of living a life that includes suffering. Thus, consolation implies a period of transition: a preparation for a time when the present suffering will have turned (sound familiar?). Consolation promises that turning.” But, Felisin denies this possibility, and she does it *on purpose*.
To sum up my feelings: Felisin is repulsive to me, and my wife (who has a long history of working with trauma survivors and emotionally disturbed soldiers) both. We have talked this out at length. Our intense dislike of her has absolutely nothing to do with her sex, and everything to do with her choices when she does have agency.
In addition, negative responsibility is worthy of our consideration for all characters, Felisin included. “An agent is responsible not only for the consequences she produces by her own actions, but that she is also responsible for consequences that she allows to happen by other agents or events she fails to prevent other agents from producing.”
In the end, I agree that "compassion is a requisite for a meaningful existence and civilized society". But so too with what Silverfox says: "In all that is to come, think on forgiveness. Hold to it, but know too that it must not always be freely given." All said and done and in the inestimable words of the Dude: that’s just like, my opinion, man.
PS: I would submit that your analysis of the Felisin/Baudin scene is well considered, but am frustrated that you stapled an invective to Baudin and called it good rather than attempting an exploration of *why* he chose not to simply "confront Felisin and take the knife back." There is so much nuance to it that tossing out "because Power" is a disservice.
Keep up the great content. My post is to continue a conversation, not to negatively criticize. Anything that prompts me and others to engage this much means you're doing something right.
first in! last out! (first comment, first like!)
Hell yeah 🤠