Monster Melee - Orcs vs. Hobgoblins
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- Опубліковано 19 вер 2024
- Orcish brutality meets hobgoblin military training in this clash between two of D&D's most classic humanoid monsters.
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Gnolls vs Lizardmen
The "weird" low level monsters. Nice.
Weirdly enough it's hard to imagine a more appropriate matchup. Hoping on my Swampy Lizard Bois for the win. B]
I wonder who thinks who is more delicious
The orcs got really lucky with their rolls. The warchief winning initiative and soaking up ALL the damage was key to the orc victory. Since the hobgoblins were damaging the warchief pretty well to start it sucked them into the (focus fire) tactic which ultimately lost them the battle. The orc grunts quickly ended the battle with some criticals to avenge their fallen warchief. Nicely done. Excellent battle!
Yes I found that to be a completely absurd tactic. Why would they all Focus fire on this giant sack of hit points? They could have went around practically one shotting Orcs with that extra 2d6.
For me, either way the warchief had too much HP and actual good chances to hit the hobgoblins and 1shot them, once all the orcs were at melee it either was a warchief sweep or a minion sweep, Hobgoblins did roll terrible damage tho, a lot of really bad dice on the martial advantage.
@@yamilalcaide9448 True but a few times the Hobgoblins could have killed a couple of Orcs significantly reducing some of the incoming attacks. With an AC of 18 they had a good chance. Also the two long rangers had 0 incentive to engage when a longbow does practically the same damage as their longsword with the same advantages.
@@yamilalcaide9448 93 HP is just insane for this matchup. The fact that not only did the hobogblins start *within range* of his movement speed but he went first in initiative just sealed the outcome from the beginning.
I'd love to see a druid circle (archdruid + a handful of druids) try to drive the new Froghemoth Elder out of their swamp. 🐸
The froghemogh is severely under CRed against this matachup. Nice idea but will be a slaughter.
@@thetreatment498 I'm referring to the Froghemoth Elder featured in Quests from the Infinite Staircase, a lot scarier :)
Oh maybe it could be a froghemoth with a group of allied bullywugs?
I love the idea of a druid circle fighting a threat. ! You have my vote
The tactical geniuses are focusing the tank. Well played.
This is pribably the battle I've most wanted to see a rematch for. I think the hobgoblins could've taken it if a basic orc or two got into melee before the warchief. They never had a good chance to lower the orc's numbers while the orcs had an easy time picking off basic hobgoblins.
problem was the hobo goblins did not get a chance to really shoot there long bows, I mean they are more intelligent they would have shot at the orcs from a far trying to take them out before the orcs could reach them
@@merchant3899 the problem with orcs is they can cover 60' AND attack or 90' to just close the gap and provide AoO threat each and every turn. There's no outrunning orcs or keeping them at a safe distance in an open field battle as many a player have discovered to their detriment in counless low-level adventure scenarios.
i think one of their advantages are their tactics and supirior inteligence and that did not show
The hobgoblins might've fared better if they tried to pick off the regular orcs with their longbows before they got close, their tiny health pools seriously hinder their survivability up close.
@@badideagenerator2315 my thoughts too. I commented already but it seems the orcs lucked out with the warchief getting up close first and offering himself as a target. Too much HP! And those grunts finished strong with some powerful great axe swings.
@@Franco1395 ironic that the ones that aren't known for their tactics applied a more effective strategy.
@@badideagenerator2315 Exactly. Tough call though. They chipped down the warchief enough to keep them on it. Classic blunder.😉
@@badideagenerator2315 But both parties had the same strategy.
Orc strategy: Maximise Hobgoblin casualties.
Hobgoblin strategy: Maximise the damage we receive.
I enjoy all your content but harbor a particular fondness for the monster melee series. As a fellow dm, it's really cool to watch different scenarios play out between different groups of Humanoids players don't often choose. I'd love to see an underwater battle if possible. Sahuagin vs Sea elves?
sahuagin vs kuo-toa would be interesting too
A water battle would be really cool!
I have honestly been thinking about this for years. Hobgoblins and orcs occupied similar niches but had very different cultures and I've always been a fan of goblinoids. Haven't watched the video yet, let's go. I'm rooting for hobgoblins
Liked the idea a lot. Multiple times in the fight that you treated a 17 as a hit against the hobgoblins, twice that I noticed but could have happened more. This could have made a significant difference. With the more tactical mindset of the hobgoblins I would've expect to see 2 up front with the leader and dodging to take advantage of their high AC and the rest in the back firing their bows. With the lower orc intelligence they likely would've just attacked the hobgoblins in the front. Also would've expected them to focus down the normal orcs after they had reached melee combat as that is the better strategy considering they would be able to reduce the orc DPR more then by attacking the war chief. (Worth attacking the war chief for the extra 2d6 damage while he was the only one next to other hobgoblins but after the others advanced should've switched targets). I believe that these things would've done enough that we would have been fairly likely to see a hobgoblin victory rather then an orc one. Really enjoying the videos and would be interested in a rematch for this one, either way thanks for continuing to make more monster melees!
Exactly. Hobgoblins are smart and formally trained in the art of war. They could easily formed a shield wall (the one up from blocking a chokepoint and dodging) which the rest rained arrows from afar. This would be the smart way to fight an enemy you know is bigger amd stronger than you, especially when you know you are much more well equipped.
The winner . Fights the town guards.
That would be great
The town guards would get slaughtered so fast.
It takes 300xp to reach level 2 and the two dire wolves from the previous episodes gave them 400xp in total. Those orcs don't stood a chance.
More hobgoblins for the rematch! a few of them ranged
Gnomes VS Halflings
?
Why tho
gnomes vs knights
@@akaikolr4297 Why not?
@@MaceLupo because they are not warrior races, they're peaceful, whimsical and they wouldn't face other good alignment races for no reason.
Loving the series Esper. I would think the Hobgoblins would be a little more tactical, picking of the support one by one, while the orcs would want to pair off for individual duals. I wonder if that would’ve changed the outcome.
I feel the hobgoblins would have been smart enough to slay the soldier orcs before turning on the war chief. While its true the war chief is the biggest threat, however, orcs advantage comes from their numbers and they utilized it here and butchered the hobgoblins before they even stood a chance.
100%. The hobgoblins had every advantage and were straight up thrown away. Thwy could have had the shielded warriors dodge tank (thematically form a shield wall in the natural choke point) and just rain arrows onto the orcs until their all dead. Easy win.
I'm such a sucker for these videos, I'm happy you have more of those epic battles in mind!
A throne room with one assassin against 6 guards and a noble. The assassin gets to start with stealth, while the guards are strategically placed on alert for the assassin. Victory is tied only to the assassin and the noble. I love when the terrain gets used tactically, and a cat and mouse combat would be fun and entertaining.
I feel so honored you took my suggestion for this one (not sure if anyone else suggested it). I love my orcs and so happy they won. Maybe for the rematch there can be some diversification with Hobgoblins getting Goblin and Bugbear allies and orcs getting Orogs and Tanaruuk allies. How about for my next suggestion Thri-kreen vs Bullywugs.
That was fun. In hindsight, it does seem that the hobgoblins blundered by focusing their attacks on the leader rather than thinning the opposition. We have the benefit of knowing the combatants' stats beforehand (and the outcome afterward), but how much of the relative strength of ones opponent is perceptible to combatants is an open question.
Would love to see a rematch of this one! Feel like the hobgoblins would have had a much more decent chance if they went for the weaker orcs first!
I would have expected a bit more tactical behavior from the supposedly more organized Hobgoblins, but alas, they charged the Orc chief like a bunch of mindless orcs....
That was amazing, love when there are some brutal humanoids in the battle!
Now would be so cool to see the winner orcs vs the survivor townguards! ⚔️
G'knokbak, son of the former Hobgoblin Warchief, attempts to avenge the death of his father by invading the Orc camp and taking the head of their new Chieftain. 😱
Hang on... did the Hobgoblin leader jump ahead of the Orc leader in the turn order at the end there? The Orc leader could still be alive if that hadn't happened.
Yeah that's exactly what I thought
Yeah that's true! It's actually really complicated running these fights (so much to keep track of) plus trying to keep everything flowing fast!
@@esperthebard No worries, I totally get that it's tough to keep track of things in the moment!
I was unaware of military strategies including attacking the hardiest tank of an enemy, ignoring silly "nontactical" ideas like economy of actions.
Perhaps a rematch that lets them add actual battle tactics to their tactics?
Hobgoblins would probably send two warriors to the front to dodge and tank a little, while the rest are using longbows or javelins, kiting the orcs
Exactly! Hobgoblins entire thing is literally that they are organized and tactically minded. Their potential was utterly wasted here. They should have stomped the orcs.
The one leader is SURROUNDED no bonuses?!?
As a huge fan of all things Hobgoblin I really enjoyed this one! I've been pitting my players against them for a while now and just always wished for more variants, especially on the stronger side. Always love the voices you give all your monsters, actually sells it the most, especially as the fight got tense there towards the end, I could see it before me as if it was a movie scene, excellent story telling!
The thing is hobgoblins aren't especially strong. What makes them scary is that they are disciplined and well trained. This was an incredibly poor showing as esper played the hobgoblins terribly. They should have wiped the floor with the orcs if they he employed any of the tactical acumen the lore says they have.
A fight you could do is take a few humanoid stat blocks and put them up against a cyclops in a reenactment of Odysseus and his men fighting the Cyclops. A new iteration but higher level of guards maybe with a mixed team of guards, veterans and gladiator. Maybe even a bandit or bandit captain.
Mabye some thugs too
I found this really fun and inspiring - how you narrated the battle and the monsters I now want to use! Awesome stuff :D
Maglubiyet and Gruumsh be like:
Elves VS Dwarves! Settle the grudges once and for all!
I just might have to do that!
dude... absolutely awesome as always! GREAT battle for sure. I vote 'Yes' for the inclusion of flanking in these battles.
A fight between Gripplis and Duodrones would be cool.
Such an interesting idea. How did you decide on those two groups?
@@johngleeman8347 I dont know, i just love both of these creatures, and I think that both are a little bit underrated.
Grumsh's one eye looks down at the scuffle in the mountain pass below his high perch in the heavens. There he sees one of his warchiefs fall in glorious combat. The orcs roar with fury, their eyes bloodshot with rage. Grumsh gives the orcs his blessing, and the orcs charge with the fury of Grumsh himself when he fought the leader of those pesky, infernal elves.
Make a video all about Gnomes please. Gnomes are my favorite race in DnD & Baldur's Gate.
Gnomes vs kobolds
Esper isn't a big fan of gnomes lol
@@joydjinn8692 But why? I genuinely don't understand the gnome hate. He better at least have more respect for gnomes than he does for Owlbears. Gnomes bring so much happiness & joy to the world & are one of the most intelligent people & inventers. He sure never disses Halflings.
Second, while not my favorite, gnomes are awesome among the stout folk
That warchief sure was a damage sponge, sheesh. Cool fight though.
This was awesome man, thank you for the entertaining content! I'm big fan of your monster speech and sounds lol please continue to make these videos special :^)
This wasn't a fight. This was a massacre.
Been looking forward to Orcs vs Hobgoblins. You did a mass battle like that years ago, I rather enjoyed it.
Disappointed with the outcome of this one as a die hard red hand of doom fan! Which just means I’m invested, Esper! Great series as always and very much looking forward to round 2
I would like to see this fight again but with more goblinoid and orc type monsters featured. The bugbear chief is a much worthier combatant for the orc war chief, and an orc eye of Gruumsh would have been better for the hobgoblin captain. Granted, I know throwing in a bunch of different stat blocks would make this tougher to run but we all know hobgoblins wouldn't let some orcs get the last laugh in a skirmish. The hobgoblins would prepare for total war in retaliation. Regardless, I really enjoy watching your tactics play out and all the monsters you highlight!
Acolytes and a Priest vs Cultists and a Cult Fanatic
That would be neat to see.
I would like the flanking rolls
This was perfect!
Maybe a battle between two groups of 6 heavy spell casters of different levels, each...
Oozes Royal Rumble....
Royal Jello
On one hand I f-ing love these melee brawls. On the other hand I love mind CR (8-18) single monster melees!
Let's settle once and for all who is the smoother criminal
Bandits vs wererats
I recommend Bandit captain, two thugs and as many bandits as necessary against 3 wererats
Those bandits are going to need some help as the wererats are immune to the non-magical damage of the bandits. The bandits are going to need to be able to grapple, restrain, and strangle those wererats if they're unable to actually hurt them with their regular weapons.
@@FrostSpike
Good point
Maybe they managed to add silver to their melee weapons but not arrows or knives, so they need to fight in close quarters but aren't completely helpless
They could also use torches. Wererats aren't immune to fire damage
Hi Esper, as always I love those melees.
However, I would have a suggestion for a rematch if you don't mind, inspired by a recent encounter I ran for my players. They were a level 4 party of 3 plus a veteran NPC ally and I decided an orc warchief would be too powerful considering the encounter also had half a dozen orcs, a couple ogres and an Eye of Gruumsh (split into 4 patrols so not fought at once but capable of pulling other patrols to the battle with shouts or retreat tactics.
As such, I used an orog as the leader and he could be a nice alternative for the slaughter-machine-damage-sponge warchief. With 42 HP and an AC of 18 (plate), he'd be much closer to the hobgoblin captain in terms of power (or CR if you would) so you probably wouldn't even need an extra hobgoblin (considering their higher AC and martial advantage balancing their low HP).
How about an ogre Vs guards in a fighting ring with a donkey spectating?
Yes, I'm talking about that scene in Shrek 1 lol
I’m sure that I’m not the only one who suggested this battle so Thank You Esper😊
Your channel is awesome dude, keep it up!
The tactical logic vs blunt brutality were kind of inverted in this fight. Hobgoblins made a really poor choice of prioritizing a single high hp target, while orcs eliminated the action economy of their enemies. Need to rerun this one with Hobgoblins showing a bit more cunning and brains over the orcs ;-).
Maybe there could be a Halloween themed skirmish. A mixture of Undead Creatures vs Clerics and Paladins. Thumbs up!
i'm slightly disapointed you didn't give any of them class features, that really helped the fights feel consequential
Yeesss! This is something I was requesting a few episodes ago!
Hydra vs Treant
I love this series! I think a fun match would be a kraken vs however many aboleth
Good battle. If i may suggest, hobgoblins could use some makeshift fortifications, since they have a military training.
I like to think that even though the orc won this fight, with their warchief slain and their more chaotic nature the remaining orcs fell in to fighting among themselves for leadership.
bro how was this fair 💀 the hobgoblins did not have enough health to make this nearly fair
That's why he gave them one more Hob. That battlecry from the warchief was the MPV move of this fight.
It should have been two hobgoblin Captains lol
I think they could've won it but they got super unlucky with the initiative rolls. The orc chief getting into melee so far ahead of the rest of the orcs made it so the hobgoblins just wasted most of their attacks whittling down the chief rather than thinning the orc force. If they were able to target the basic orcs, they definitely could've won it
Maybe this would have been more fair with a Hobgoblin Warlord?
The guitarist in the background music rolled a nat 20 on the performance check.
Oh hell yeah brother! this is what we like to see, 2 brutal societies clashing Warhammer fantasy style!
Great series! I'd love to see a flanking bonus. Didn't realize that wasn't in the official rules.
what an heroic last stand from the captain ! maybe a rematch with some bugbears helping the hobgoblins ?
Or better yet, the se exact composition but using even a shred of tactics with the hobgoblins instead of just unga bunga-ing them to their deaths. They literally are a disciplined and formally trained military force and should have won easily.
I feel like this fight definitely favors the orcs for a couple of reasons. The first is that works are really good when it comes to battles with small units. Hobgoblins are much better when they’re in bigger fighting forces because a lot of their abilities will stack. The second reason I think this battle favors the orcs is because of the fact that the war chief was one CR higher than the hobgoblin captain. If you were using the hob goblin warlord, the fight would’ve gone completely different. Obviously, though it would be much harder to make a video where you would be dealing with a large group of orcs or hobgoblins. I don’t think Esper’s budget is that big. Also would be cool to see how things would be different if spellcaster were in the mix. Sorry for the typos I’m using Siri dictation and it messes up words sometimes.
No, this battle massively favors the Hobgoblins. With that martial advantage and really good AC for the CR they have the lead in damage and to hit. The orcs have an advantage in hp. The reason the hobgoblins lost is they were used exceptionally poorly. Which is annoying since it is explicitly in their lore that they are organized and competent soldier who are scary precisely because they use proper tactics to overcome stronger foes.
@@sassyviking6003 Yeah, even though I was team Gruumsh and so I was happy that the orcs got the w, it did seem that honor and glory clouded the hobgoblins judgement and tactical mind in this fight. Cause it seemed like all of the hobgoblins only wanted the glory kill by only focusing on the orc warchief and pretty much ignored the other orcs, which was a major mistake and pretty much set them up for defeat.
If this one gets a rematch it might be interesting to have it be more like a sequel instead, and give the hobgoblins a CR 4 leader, which would also show off the difference in training/tactics, by having them led by a Hobgoblin Devastator. It would have potential to be really one-sided if the hobgoblins win initiative, especially the Devastator, but there's precedent from goblins vs. kobolds for one leader to have magic and not the other. And he has a few more hit points, but much worse AC than the captain, so if the orcs do get to attack him, he'll go down fast, like a true glass cannon should. :D
I’m good with the orc tactics, but I’d say tip another hobgoblin into the scrum…whole hobgoblin hit point pool was 103, and the orcs were 168. Tough balance, tho had a few second attacks gone through and the orc chief dropped previous round, it would have been closer. But the orcs one shot how many hobgoblins…too potent.
It's your house, Esper, go for it!
Great combat. Perhaps Keep the story going with the hobgoblin seeking vengeance attacking a lair. Maybe the hobgoblins were an advance scouting party. Love to see goblin vs Kobolds as well. 🐺
Giant Ape vs 3 Pentadrone
Adult Oblex (CR 5) vs a mix of Valenar Steed (CR 1/2), Hounds (CR 1/2), and Hawks (CR 1/8)
Rematch Demogorgon vs. Orcus but on the Demogorgon's side throw in some demons that can summon other demons, like Nalfeshnee, Chasme, or Vrock? Those have flying and can summon other demons to take some the pressure that Orcus can do with summoning undead creatures. Maybe even a Balor?
If you add flanking you need to do more group fights so we can see a flanking chain 😂
The generic hobgoblins were shown with an AC of 18 so the 17 wouldn't have missed.
Random idea. Could do monster melees where the idea is "How many of X to take down one of Y" As an example. How many goblins to take down a troll? Would twenty do it? Assuming they have at least one lit torch, or something, to prevent regen.
What about realistically combined parties of monsters? Such as a Gnoll Warband complete with a Shoosuva and a pack of Hyenas or the like perhaps??
Love this content, very well done!
I would like to do bigger, more complex battles like that. The downside is that they take much longer to produce. I also wonder if people would want to watch longer monster melees of like 35-45 minutes.
@@esperthebardI would watch it.
@@esperthebard - I'd watch it, sure!
@@esperthebard I'd definitely watch
Hobgob should have tried a charisma check to see if he could recruit the orcs after killing their leader
Got to give the slight edge to Orcs but it would be a very close battle
Drow vs Duergar perhaps? Mordenkainen's has a lot of variants for both, that are all really fun to use.
I do a lot of mobs in my dm games this has given me inspiration and i thank you.
"Orcish Brutality" sounds like it could be some kind of combat games, like the fantasy version of the Finnish Brutality athletic shooting competition.
that fight was bit favored hard imo towords the orcs. you said it yourself, the hobgoblins are the ones with orders and strats, but they attack the tank, while the orcs tacticly take out one target after the other...
Esper is a world-class GM! I thought it might be nice to type up a transcript for my friends, but it turns out I can't spell half the stuff he says.
I've been plating 1st edition Ad&d with some 2nd edition updates (when they came out) since 1982. Hobgoblins were slightly tougher than orcs back then.
I feel like both of them deserved some of their more powerful counterparts. A hobgoblin evoker and a orc shaman maybe?
Take care on your trip, and thanks for the battles. ❤
Nothing like a little blood and guts to start my day. 😊
How about 2 mages vs 2 high priests?
We have another house rule for flanking that we like. Ill list it below. But the +2 is a solid and easy way to do it.
Flanked Condition
`• When a creature has two hostile creatures that are not incapacitated and that are adjacent to and on opposite sides or corners of it, that creature gain the flanked condition.
• When a creature makes a ln attack against a creature with flanked condition that it can see, it rolls a d4 and adds the number rolled to its attack roll.
A flanked creature cannot help to flank another creature .`
Surrounded Condition
`• When a creature is flanked by four or more creatures that are not incapacitated and on different sides/corners of it. The creature replace the Flanked condition with the Surrounded Condition.
• Creatures attacking someone with the surrounded condition adds D6 to attack rolls that it can see, instead of D4 as the normal flanking does.
• Creatures with the Surrounded condition can't take Opportunity Attacks and cannot help to flank other creatures.`
Note: The Flanked condition and the Surrounded condition provide the attack bonus to all creatures, even to those that doesn't provide the flanking or surrounded conditions.
That was brutal!
That flanking rule is very cool. I just think it may be a bit much for a monster melee.
Yes please, add flanking! It only makes sense for most encounters. 1 orc against 3 hobs there should be a sort of advantage there
This series is great. So is your voice acting!
Longbows have a range of 150 feet (or 600 with disadvantage). Realistically, this wouldn't be much of a match. The hobgoblins would just pick them off from afar (or even from a clifftop) and never bother engaging in melee.
Or 300 it. Send a could into the ravine to form a shield wall (mechanically stand in place and dodge) to keep the simple minded orcs busy while the rest shoot. Literally any sort of tactics whatsoever would have easily won this for the hobgoblins. Was actually quite frustrating to watch.
Anyone else hoping to see a 1 (Dolvedruc) VS 5 (Orc) comeback?
Big fan of the series! It would be nice to see a more balanced rematch because I don't think the Hobgoblins could have won this one without the Orcs rolling particularly poorly. The Orcs are just much more heavily stacked in terms of equipment, stats, and abilities compared to the Hobgoblins and the CR difference between the two leaders was very apparent
I see so many people saying this and I just don't get it. The hobgoblins have do more damage with martial advantage, have way more AC, and a comparable hit bonus wjen leadership is factored in. Hp is literally the only advantage the orcs had.
The only reason the orcs won is because he used literally no tactics with the supposidly tactical disciplined and organized hobgoblins, amd applied more tactics with the stupid brutish and disorganized orcs. The hobgoblins should have stomped. Clear adds instead of focusing the giant hp pool which dying, maybe using a couple hobfoblins at the front dodgeing (effectovely forming a shield wall) while the rest sit back and pincushion the orcs with their martial advantage.
As someone who loves hobgoblins specifically because they are a threst as organized as the civilization they seek to destroy, this was quite aggrivating to watch.
Foundry is such a great vtt, I love it wayyyyyy more than roll 20 tbh
Ghouls vs our beloved guards please. Also impatient for a lich.
flanking is a must it adds more tactics.Remach with flanking rule
Awesome, I requested this! Still early in the vid but that orc warchief looks nasty...
Interesting battle. I was hoping the Hobgoblins would win out but sadly not. I think the hoboblins being smarter and more militaristic would have used such tactics as being on a ledge with longbows in such an encounter. But stumbling and bumblin units do engage in the fog of war lol. Wonder what a Halfling War Dog Calvary unit would encounter 😂
Would be awesome playing in one of his campaigns.
Speaking of which, I'd like to see orcs and elves fight.