Got this in my recommended, never played Warcraft and I have absolutely no clue what half of what you’re talking about means but still watched the whole thing lmao
Jesus man, that's such a great video. You are successfully fighting the stereotype of "top 10" videos being low effort. The amount of research here is insane. Great Job.
What a trip down memory lane, and the pleasing feeling to see M'uru at the top. Had the privilege to raid Vanilla to LK with in un-nerfed state competing for top 20 kills, being part of those 0.23% and early Yogg-0's. Just an amazingly hard fight which we only got right after the first pushback nerf. One of the things you never mentioned about the M'uru fight is how incredibly hard this fight was for the two add-tanks. This was pre-aoe tanking so the adds running in at a very high speed and quite twitchy to move around, had to be nailed hard and swift - so perfect threat execution on two targets at the same time, because cleave damage was the only way to get them down fast enough. Very hard compared to after tanking changed to simplify aoe.
AoE tanking was from a different design perspective at that point, specific classes were given specific roles, my guild had a Protection Paladin for M'uru (I also respecced Protection when needed) which were considered the "AoE tanks" of the time. The previous raid of Mount Hyjaal required a protection paladin to deal with the adds that came with the multiple waves because only protection could hold multiple targets.
"One of the things you never mentioned about the M'uru fight is how incredibly hard this fight was for the two add-tanks." Thank you so much for saying this. I was our feral offtank for the back-hallway and I was SOOO proud of how well I handled those adds while our DPS was going 100% all in on basically all three of them at the same time. I told our top dps'ers to go 100% and I don't care which ones you hit and I guaranteed they would not pull on any of the 3 no matter how hard they tried... and let me tell you, it took all of my focus and abilities to manage threat on all three of them. No one ever pulled on me. My plan was basically to develop primary threat on one of the 3 while generating cleave-threat on the other two. I would just assume I would lose aggro on one of my secondary targets and I would plan it out that way. I'd wait for someone to pull aggro on a secondary target and immediately taunt and follow that up with maul/mangle. And then i would go back to ignoring that one that just pulled (and just cleaved it with swipes), where i would finally focus on the 3rd mob that I basically ignored the whole time until then. It was such a delicate balance but it truly pushed me to my limits. It was moments like this that made the entire game worth it for me. I'll remember that for the rest of my life.
The thing that made Lich King so difficult for top guilds, was that you had to have 5 paladins and 2 disc priests in a 25 man raid to pair up aura mastery with shields for infest. Disc priests alone were not enough to fully absorb the infest without the aura mastery until the 25% buff came from the 5th month of the boss.
You say that but it will die the first day it's available with like 4 healers in the raid on wotlk classic. People were just bad back then, myself included, end of story.
@@Neurotik51 well yes and no. You forget a very very big part of the story: classic players have experience and knowledge about the full fight with the perfect roster comps. You didnt have either of these back in 2010, you needed to figure it out yourself with a very limited time (since you were raid locked if u tried too many time). I can roll up to an LOD raid rn and i know there will be 1 or 2 hpala and 1 disco and probably a pala and bear tank cuz thats just the easiest to do with. But back then trying to figure out all of this WHILE LK wasnt nerfed? Not a chance you could do that.
@@Neurotik51 you mean the ppl, who downed Yog 0 were bad? Let me remind you, Blizz doesnt know the exact value, of like anything, cause they didnt make backup (or they got lost who knows). Also, Blizz stated, classic is not vanilla, as you could have seen, ppl didnt really struggel with C'thun, cause they implemented the bug fixed, tuned fight outside of you know, no armor, dmg reduction, dmg done, etc values, and they probably dont want to over tune or have better testing teams, so they are more likely the undertune fights, compared to vanilla. You can say, the C'thun couldnt be beaten, cause they were bad, but LK was several years later, with players actually having experience, alt running, gear funneling etc.
Not true, me and a buddy were the 2 disc priests, and we could shield the whole raid before infest struck, and it got soaked completely. Only when a disc priest got picked up by valkyr, it would be a possible wipe. We were guild 257 in the world that killed him on 25hc. And were realm first.. and realm second on 10hc, were we only had 2 healers, me as disc and a druid. Yes it was really hard, but doable.
I was a mage in a top guild during TBC and i had completly forgotten about the fact that everyone in the guild did indeed pick up leatherworking in order to use those drums. The prenerf Muru fight was just crazy. The mages had to mark and cc the humanoids spawning from the two opposite sides of the room perfectly while also counterspelling the casters. The tank would die due to the high amount of damage if he took more than 1 on at a time and if the caster adds werent counterspelled in time they would be in a bad location where melee dps wouldnt reach them fast enough and you would wipe because you would get overrun by adds because they spawned so frequently. Muru also spawned 1 big void walker which needed to be tanked and when it died it spawned a bunch of small adds that needed to be aoed quickly, our guild used warlocks that spammed some seed aoe ability, the name i cant remember. AND you needed to do dmg to Muru himself aswell and you needed to get a perfect transition into the dps race phase without any adds alive. And in addition to that the damage and healing required through the fight was crazy. The adds spawned so fast and had so much hp you had little time to dps Muru and Muru did high continuous dmg to the raid too, it was so much dmg and healing required that sometimes youd just wipe randomly because someone died or someone fucked up a crowd control or people focused too much on damaging muru so you got overrun by ads and sometimes people didnt damage Muru enough so the fight just lasted forever until someone inevitably died. The dps phase while very hard was extremely simple and straightforward. He just did so much raid dmg and had so much hp you basically needed a perfect transition with no adds up and people in good locations with everyone alive and every important cooldown ready. I also saw another comment about the bad fps in the fight and i can confirm i remember lowering my graphics settings myself aswell. The chain lightning in particular and everything else during the fight just killed your fps.
I remember only bringing one mage to the fight, cause mages were really bad in sunwell. and bringing a prot paladin to tank the void spawns made the fight a lot easier.
So in a nutshell, a fight with joke mechanics but overtuned hp and dmg. Well, if you overtune the hp and dmg on any boss in the game it becomes challenging, but in an artificial way, and Blizzard understood that. That's why I think later they amended that by brainstorming all kinds of mechanics for the bosses in later expansions.
@@vhyles Keep in mind we had very few addons to help us with the fight back then. We had a threat meter and i think we manually set up timers for when mobs would spawn. That was about it. I'm not sure how many more mechanics you could realistically add to a fight in those conditions while still claiming it to be good design. Eyeballing the distance between every player around you to avoid the chain lightning while still being in reach to do the things you needed to do against moving targets with minimal lost time was pretty difficult on a shit computer with bad fps not gonna lie. But yes the hp and dmg was tuned very highly before the mega nerf in the weeks leading up to the wrath release.
@@antonsundin2974 Yeah, with no DBM I guess it would be harder to have a clean phase transition with no remaining adds. If we add to that the limits of the time, bad internet and low fps, that makes the fight exponentially harder. I'm just a bit surprised he was number 1 after seeing all the mad mechanics players must do on bosses in the latest expansions. But overall you have a point 👍 I'm very curious when TBC reaches its final phase how will players fare with Muru, with 0 lag, 100+ fps and DBM that shows the timers of spawns. Ty for your input
Imagine being a literal old god, one of the most powerful and malicious beings in existence, and not being more difficult to kill than some floating crystals
well an MMORPG Lore and Ingame are 2 different things. Not everything that comes up in Lore has to be the same for the game. Its the same nonsense that we are the heroes all the time.. even if it should be over, after the first death of our characters
Dude, a mob in current content is stronger than a raid boss from 2-3 expansions back. And there was also the mythic dungeon mechanic that stacked a health/damage buff on surviving mobs, allowing you to make an impossible to kill snail with billions of hp.
You never actually kill them truly and you fight them while they are still chained. Right now however....it's a different situation with Azshara releasing N'zoth.
imo dieing hundreds of times to a boss was not as annoying and demoralizing as having every wipe take basically 20min in between pulls to run back to your body/zone, buff up, readycheck, mana up, etc only to get to that attempts cap blizz use to have from some of the last bosses in vanilla (Rag, Cthun) that would reset once a week; not to mention having the instance you got for that week was strictly the one you had for that week, you couldnt join another lockout until reset unless you paid to server xfer and even then.
M'uru was the hardest boss i've ever faced. Thanks for keeping it number one on the list. I remember weeks of wipes, raiding sunday to thursday, 8pm to midnight. And as a holy pally, i had a whole group to myself, with 3 shaman rotating mana tide when i asked and a shadow priest. Because the tank heal was INSANE!! zero breaks, moving from MT tanking the big void, to the pally tank getting the small adds. And my guild helped me farm dark runes from scholomance, so i could get another mana boost on the fight. Ahhhh the good old days.
Those hours and days sounds just like my guild. Definitely the longest I remember ever being stuck on a boss. Our guild ended up raid stacking and so as a warrior tank, I ended up being in standby most of the time. Ultimately led me to stop raiding. Guild got him and cleared within a couple weeks. Maybe I sucked but those adds were hard to tank too. You had to pick them up so fast and with dps going all out as soon as possible, I had to be on my toes
This has to be the one of the best WoW list videos ever made. Wonderful work! I was shocked to see that I just watched a 50 minute list video, it was so good that it didn't seem longer than normal :) thanks for this masterpiece!
So C'thun and Yogg-Saron were considered "mathematically impossible." Makes me wonder if Blizz made the Old Gods that way on purpose. If they did, then I might expect N'Zoth to be "mathematically impossible" as well.
i expect n'zoth to be the hardest raid boss to this point solely because he's the only old god we've faced who is fully released. c'thun and yogg were still partially imprisoned. I expect even normal to be decently difficult
@@SmokerFace12 you cant kill old gods due to the damage it does to our planet as was found out when y'shaarj was killed its the reason why c'thun and yogg arent dead ether.
@@jandegrote1 oh i see, only play since Cata and didnt care for lore at all because I never understand half of whats going on.. But these Old Gods and Titans are getting very interesting now and might need to do some lore research :)
in this day? no. he'll be a push over like everything else they make now. lore wise... sargeras should've swatted everyone like a fly but "let's make illidan commit suicide for literally no reason because we wrote it so poorly it's out of place for him to be imprisoned with him"
I'm surprised you didn't mention that Ion H himself was the dude from Death and Taxes that did some of the math to discover that C'Thuun was impossible
Ion was not in Death N Taxes. He was in elitist jerks which got banned from exploiting the skeram wall. XI and Blacken were the DnT members arguing with the blizzard developers. How do I know this you ask. I was a mage in Death N Taxes.
It's funny that you mention your drawings at the ending as my immediate thought during the Lich King boss explanation was just the drawing you did of picking up the stick figure and gently placing them. I know you didn't like the illustrations, but that one always comes to mind when talking about the bomb exploit. :' ) Lovely video and I look forward to the next revisit 5 years from now! :D
Awesome top. Will you do a "Story of Class Specs" in the future? Like, "History of Combat Rogues" "History of Fury Warriors" "History of Shadow Priests" etc, etc, etc. In defense of your original top ten hardest raid bosses video, I have to say the Paint drawings gave it a nice descriptive touch. While raid footage is better to show what you are talking about, sometimes the chaotic mishmash of spell effects clouds the mechanics, so the little paint drawings makeit simple to understand at a basic level. It's a bit like a more energetic Bob Ross explaining raid mechanics. In particular I love the Lich King rising Sindragosa part.
32:46 Turns out the line between "clever use of game mechanics" and "illegal exploit" is a real fine one. To my mind, that was just a brilliant creative move on their part: they dealt with the mobs, using game mechanics. They didn't remove lines of code, walk through walls or glitch anything obviously shady like that. In the same way that a paladin may bubble to prevent all incoming damage, warlocks negating a debuff altogether by just draining life, or someone kiting a pack of mobs for an entire fight. The difference between an evade and a kite/bubble/total negation is hardly that significant when you're up against one of the toughest bosses in the game's history. Hell, most people posited that it was mathematically impossible, so no wonder they found themselves having to get real creative, and props to them for going the extra mile to prove them wrong. Peace!
Just a small note on your end segment; Kil'Jaeden, in sunwell, was not a hard fight. His low kill count was quite literally only because M'uru was so hard. Most guilds that managed to kill M'uru would kill KJ within a day or two of killing M'uru. I know my guild at the time quite literally killed him the next raid day. We always attributed it to the fact that everyone in the raid at that point was so close to mechanically perfect due to M'uru, so all the mechanics on KJ had so much room for error that it was kind of a joke; this despite the mechanics looking difficult to someone not directly raiding the content.
Well it was kind of hard, but... he was so much easier than M'uru that it just never seemed that hard to anyone capable of even getting to him. Funny kind of thing when the 2nd to last boss of a raid is harder then the last one.
KJ in TOS however, was pure misery. The reason why ALLY players couldnt kill him is because anyone who couldnt jump back on the platform...well they went off the platform.
I played swp on a buffed private server and muru was rly easy, if priests and tanks knew what to do. As dps you just go out prior ti the dark area and then aoe the adds.
I wasn't (only saw the first few bosses of ICC, but frankly: It really were the glory days for me, too because I haven't raided much since, especially since most of my friends stopped playing (only returning for a month here a month there etc.))...and that is ok, because seeing the last encounter of an expansion should not be trivial (note: But raiding should also not require you to run a shit-ton of mythic dungeons etc....the early encounters should basically equip you for the later ones and be doable in green-gear!)
Thank you for this awesome upload! The elaborate explanation of Archimonde's mechanics made me realize why so many raiders were tired of soaking mechanics during that time!
I’ve been subscribing to this channel recently and I’ve just been blown away by the nostalgic factor. You see, I played wow vanilla when it first came out and I would definitely call myself more of a casual gamer. These raid bosses in vanilla wow were statistically very rare for the average gamer to participate, requiring large amounts of game coordination and dedication for gear leveling and such. Basically 15 years later I'm learning about parts of a game I really was unable to experience 15 years ago. I've never encountered cthun let alone been able to play in AQ. Hell I only had parts of a tier 1 set! Altogether, I really appreciate your videos ! Thank you!!!
The ending of this video is great, it ends on such a humble note and gave me goosebumps. I’ve been slowly burning through your content and look forward to when I can chill and watch you analyse wow. 😊 thank you for all the hard work you put in for this channel.
Putting M’uru on top is spot on. Our guild also got disbanded after countless tries on it. I was the Warrior MT . IMO, humanoid adds were insanely fun n relatively easy to tank with the help of spell reflection. But we always sucked at transitioning on to 2nd phase just as you mentioned. Good memories though : ) Thanks for the beautifully compiled video!
I personally was so gratified to see Fallen Avatar on the list. Doing him on heroic in Legion nearly made me quit raiding altogether, and forced a complete re-construction of my raid team.
I've raided a lot of raids til Legion, cleared naxx in classic and did all the HC and later Mythic Raids and I absolutely loved the WoD Mythic Raidcontent. Mythic Archimonde was such a lovely fight.
As someone who was in a top 20 guild and had 3 months of wipes on C'thun in Vanilla, he wouldn't. There were too many bugs in the fight that made it un-killable; for instance sometimes he would put people in his stomach and there wouldn't be any way to get out.
Probably would with 1.12 talents since they itself increase damage significantly. (the case of not enough dps, not sure about other bugs etc.) Also class stacking would help on that since that didn't really happen much in the old days.
I was hoping for a mention of the stack overflow error from the reverse chain lightening. If the raid ran in together, players could get hit for more damage than the server had integers (at the time) and so players died after taking -1 damage.
I really liked all the diagrams, drawings and Hearthstone footage you used to show raid mechanics. It helped break up the video and make it more interesting. You should do that more often
As a point of data, Alone in the Dark pre-nerf (it was 4 weeks after Stars got it that it was nerfed) took us (Fusion) 354 wipes to get it, though it was weeks after the world first, we raided a lot less than everyone who got it before us, and we had to spend far fewer wipes in the last phase than most because we had an addon writer that wrote a pair of addons to coordinate marking the adds. So 500+ for the guilds ahead of us sounds right.
"One quick video before I go sleep", I said. I couldn't skip a single second of this perfectly put together video. I loved all the details about the specific mechanics. You are very knowledgeable. And even the music is well selected and spot on.
well that tells you all you need to know about us Warlocks ;) pretty sure Isle of Quel'Danas PvP'ers heard that same bawz music play when we decided to have some fun there ^_^ ahh those were some fun days :D almost as fun as thunderpunting alliance raids at the Thunderbluff elevators back in the day with my shammy XD now those were some really good times... puts a smile on my face thinking about it
Timeless Isle too, to some extent. I used to pull some tortoises from the shallows with my demon pet to kill afk'ers at the beach. Until I learned that their aggro are unusually stuck for the longest range. So I proceed to pull the biggest, baddest tortoise from deeper water, and brought them along to the Celestial arena to ensure maximum chaos. Fun time.
Hiru, this was insanely well made. It's got all the information that videos like this normally don't have, and you explain everything perfectly.
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I'd like to mention that Mimiron was changed after week 1, due to a "bug" where the gatling gun part of his body in phase 4 would not be locked to the floor, but follow the orientation of the base, meaning that if that gatling went off at the same time as the shockwave, the tank would need to run out as well. Now, after shockwave completed, the boss would jerk to a start, following the tank that ran away, and if gatling gun was still firing, he'd swipe a basically random 1/4 of the room, often leading to wipes. Not to mention that the hard mode was incredibly tightly tuned, until it was finally nerfed something like 60+ days into the Ulduar patch. Week 1 Mimiron was only killable on normal mode because you could stack the raid to have the tank live through the shockwave, thereby preventing the random gatling kills. It felt like quite the achievement at the time to clear Ulduar week 1! I do think that the problem here was unintended behaviour, so the fix was immediate.
@@raimondsstokmanis1892 I feel like there's a lot of stuff they didnt play test especially in vanilla. For example I started levelling a druid in classic and in bear form I found out the hard way you cannot use a health pot at a critical moment while in bear form, you have to get out of bear form and btw you cannot even pop bark skin in bear form LOL!!
@@Orthane In Vanilla there was no LFR. It was all Blizz doing stuff on the fly and letting the players find all the bugs. Vanilla was horrible for all sorts of bad bugs, especially for pets of Hunters and Locks.
@@fifaskillman hirumaredx knows why and that is all that matters... This video being 49:00 minutes long, he wont receive a fraction of his normal view count. He already knows it and is wondering why he didn't break this video up into numerous videos. Wasn't being rude just honest.
@@tipsysmichigander6483 Even if the older video is one of his most famous videos with 1.6 mil . You heard it yourself, he doesn't like it mostly because it was rushed. If you gonna make a top 10 hardest boss videos , you better explain why each boss was so difficult to be on the list and include some minor details because they also played a role , like the pet that gives 20% reduced nature dmg , which helped on c'thun stomach mechanic. That's what he had to do , and that is exactly what he did
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I hate large videos but you can feel how much effort it's been put on this, you tell the stories as well as your voice, animation everything is been done in such a way that I finished the video without noticing how large It was and enjoying It, I love your videos!
Alone in the Dark was hands down the best fight ever for me, probably because I MT'd it which was incredibly fun and tense. LK was so amazing to, both on 10 which was way more fun to play than 25 imo. We also did both without c-res... kinda crazy, but I think the difficulty was healthier then.
ahh, M'uru. As a Void Spawn (and Entropius) tank, I must have gone through thousands of Ironshield pots. That was a requirement back then, haha. +2500 armor (around 12% of a raid-buffed warrior tank's armor in sunwell). Being your #1 hardest fight (which I agree with), you should have taken time to mention the door adds and how BRUTALLY hard they hit. You needed very well put together groups on each side to handle them. This was another major part of the fight where you needed to deal with something in PERFECT TIMING (as it was nearly impossible to kill them with time to spare prior to the next group running out, and if you got 2 groups at once it was pretty much over right there). Anyway, thanks for the nostalgia.... Being a TBC-Cata main tank in progression guilds was one of the best times I've ever had in my life.
I will note that C'thun should be more highly ranked however, as C'Thun was actually possible in his unnerfed state and a single kill was logged mere hours before the patch went live. What was not typically known was just how difficult the fight was pre nerfs, to the point where it was only achievable with the BiS Nature Resist gear for every character in the raid, as well as having Nature Resist flasks on everyone. And this was before the Shadow of Naxxramas patch which made Black Lotus tradeable, which means everyone in the raid had to, alone, level and cap their armorcrafting professions and material profession, then unlearn both of those professions and level alchemy and herbalism from 0. Conversely, M'Uru was actually harder then even intended, as the World First Kalegos kill was achieved by using the TBC drumcircle strategy, which was then immediately patched out. Until that kill, Drums werent just spammable, they stacked. And this was a massive buff to raiders. 5% haste is good as a static statistic, 25% haste lasting 30 seconds was incredible in TBC.
Very well done, I feel kind of set back in time when I progressed many of these bosses! For me the hardest was also Muru, who my guild wasn't able to defeat pre-nerf. But we killed him/her directly after the hotfixes were applied. Sadly I never had the chance to progress Cthun, I think it would've been fun! Thanks for the video!
Yogg 0 5 to 3 shadow beacons was a huge deal, I remember as a tank and a top 30 world kill basically the 2 tanks just made /target/taunt macros and since the /target system targets the closest add then each tank could kinda of pull the buffed adds to the side and then we had a DK go frost stance and taunt the last one out. Muru from a tanking PoV was a favorite. If you tanked one of the sides each one had it's nuances and remember back then you really only had good single target threat so if you didn't use poly keeping threat on 3 mobs that dps were trying to blow up ASAP was fun as a warrior b/c you just wore dps gear lol. I know our prot pld loved solo tanking the Shadow big/small adds, there were a couple of strats to do that but yeah we just used 3 tanks for the fight, some ppl used 4 or 3 tanks and 1 holy PLD to tank the small adds.
"taking care by a pair of shadow priests mass dispelling" I was doing that part solo, for months. Never even thought about wasting 2 shadows on that task, as occasional misses could been dispelled by a target macro and the second shadow generating more mana in that time.
36:23 Fun fact: Current WoW Game Director Ion Hazzikostas was the one who did the math confirming pre need C'Thuh was mathematically impossible in a forum post back in the day when he was the GM of the guild Elitist Jerks. They also had a website whos forums was the go-to spot for the hardcore raiding community and where most of the theorycrafting (as well as a bunch of math to support it) went to for the latest class min/maxing, optimal talent builds, and strats in the days before the removal of talent trees and the arrival of simming, boss journals, titanforging, and all the other resources you have today were available. If you watch old Elitist Jerks guides from vanilla and TBC it's usually Ion who is explaining how their guild did it.
Good luck ever trying to organise a transmog run pug to not get booted off the platform immediately. Having top level difficulty mechanics that do not scale to level have been the bane of transmog groups forever. Razorgore, felmyst, KJ etc.
When you were talking about Mythic KJ and how there are three more difficult bosses in WoW's history, I thought for sure you were going to put Yogg'Saron no lights as number 1 because I seem to remember only one guild being able to kill it while it was current and a few guilds thinking it was mathematically impossible, but then it was immediately after KJ. MonkaS I also question the lack of Kael'Thas in the video, which went unkilled by *anyone* while it was current.
To be fair, neither C'thun or M'uuru deserve to be on this list. Vanilla/TBC boss difficulty is laugable by today standards (taking in consideration only Mythic mode obv).
@@Cr4ZyHaloBob that's kinda true, when you take a look at it you could say that M'uru was hard because best possible raid dps at the time was 20k (example number, I never played on tbc so I don't know how much should a raid be pushing at the time), and M'uru's requirement was that same 20k, that means it's ridiculously hard, but it's fake difficulty. Still, great video
@@Cr4ZyHaloBob Not really. Yes, there were less mechanics, but they also needed to be executed well. Also gearing for a content was a lot harder, especially since you have to gear full 40 people at least and mostly a lot more because not all can play and you had to have backup. There were no alt runs because just reaching 60 was a lot of time. You only had one difficulty of raid and that is it. But hey, we have classic now. I would honestly love to see C'thun with its original mechanics and hp. Lets see if its killable without all the nerfs.
@@vasilije94 "but they also needed to be executed wel" yes, exactly like today, with the difference that vanilla bosses had very very few mechanics that were also very basic and, while punishing, easy to execute thanks to the low pacing of vanilla encounters and little to none mechanics overlap. Players back then where just much less skilled and experienced. This is why MC got totally destroyed in classic, and the other raids will share the same fate.
The fun thing about the explanation for Kil´jeaden is; and there was this additonal mechanic on top of this.... for like 5 Minutes. I loved this fight.
This is what made it tough to quit wow after MoP; blizzard was starting to evolve their Pve mechanics by some amazing fights during MoP, and set the requirement of Skill, Dedication and knowledge to a new level. Seems like they did a remarkable job of continuing- and expanding their Great Pve raiding !!
@@_AriseChicken lol, tell that to any high rated pvp player with 50 keybinds/macros, or the raider who spent hours utilizing reforge and stat calculations, perfecting every role-equivalent specc on their class and push the rotation to the limit. Gear didnt even carry you, or define how well you performed, if you didnt know how to use it. Theres no way you could be succesfull as casual player, but all preceeding expansions, you could achieve the majority of everything without putting in maximum effort
@@ru99414 ill tell it to all the players who had to play with simplified talents and gear. oh yea everyone. congrats you were high rated on the easiest expac. Also reforge addons, which had millions of downloads.
You didn't mention the gravity bombs on Entropius that throw you uncontrollably around the room constantly. The M'uru phase was controllable and you decided when you pushed into the last phase. Entropius was just crazy and a mad rush to try to heal and hit the boss. There would be lots of times we would get a perfect kill on M'uru, but then wipe on Entropius.
wow, didnt even realise I had been watching this for 50 minutes xD But man, this was a really nice video. I loved all the info u had on each boss etc. Keep up the good work my dued cuz you got yourself a new subscriber!
Honorable Mention that you missed: Horridon 10m Heroic. In 25m Heroic, Horridon was relatively easy. Unfortunately, the fight consists nearly entirely of dealing with waves of adds that are more of a pain than the boss. In the 10m version of the fight, originally it was spawning adds in the same number and scaling (health and damage) as the 25m version of the fight: this made the fight impossible to beat, as you were basically trying to 10m a 25m encounter.
You prob dont read comments on this anymore, but I have used this video to fall asleep for about 6months now, listen to it every single night. Helps me sleep, thanks for this masterpiece
Blizz since launch: "Derp, what is playtesting?" Funny that Blackhand was the only one deserdly difficult for just being hard and not from Blizzard fucking up tuning or releasing a fight not done yet
Speaking personally I loved your little shortcuts in the previous video, I thought it was really cute showing 4horseman in hearth and the little drawings of the bosses :)
Archimonde is one of those bosses that usually slips under the radar when it comes to difficulty. I think you put it well; the amount of never before seen tactics in combination with the two extreme resource checks (dps in P1 and battleresses in P3) made it suuuch a satisfying race. I can only imagine what it would look like, had it not been for the emergence of the insane WeakAuras. Because of that, i recommend checking out Paragon’s killvid, and the beauty that is their handling of the chaos beam mechanics
I want to add to the C'thun stomach what you mixed up there (just a little mistake): You were able to jump out of the stomach immediately, what was the case for some classes or players that got eating up at low HP. However, the hard thing was to time killing the 2 tentacles in the right time for the weakening phase which means you had to kill the big eyes or big claws outside, quickly before the 2 stomach tentacles got killed. That was EXTREMELY hard (I experienced it back then and we never managed to kill C'Thun in before TBC) to manage for a raid for 40 people especially since there was no boss with as many different mechanics as C'Thun at that time. This was just too much for most guilds to handle at the same time and it took years for players to figure out some position tactics (on classic private servers) for phase 2 that significantly made the fight easier. Great video mate, awesome content and lovely work!
Ah, I remember M'uru. My guild got him to sub-9% numerous times pre-nerf, but one or two people dying early in the 2nd phase would ruin it every time. Killed him the very day he got his first nerf. Was a bit disappointed, but we did also got Kil'Jaeden down in another week or two. Tanked him as a warrior, which wasn't the way to do it really. Was a lock tank fight since he had a knockback if you tried to melee tank him, but being a tauren gave me a bit longer of a reach and my charge got me right back into the very edge of his hit box. Plus our lock tank was bad at it. Even decided to tank the flame Eredar Twin since he was squishy as shit. Took about 5 pulls to get them down the first time and it was a joke after that once I figured out the patterns and kept an extra eye out for the little shadow duplicates that would blow up. If you were a melee tank like me and you got stunned, she'd run off to get ranged again and kinda screw things up. But we got them down easy either way.
my problem with the new lore/bosses is they aren't memorable. I remember marrowagger so vividly, distinct look and mechanics and just a great fun intro boss.
Bryce Small Marrowgar was sick. Great first boss to introduce you to the “flavor” of ICC. A lot of blue and white, high vaulted ceilings, wiiiiide open platform, crazy reverby voice ambience. BOOOOOOOOOOOONE STOOOOOOOOORM
I raided in vanilla & TBC and played a little in WotLK so I’m not familiar with most of these bosses but you made me watch the entire video. Great job making this video.
The segment about the C'thun stomach room is inaccurate. You didn't have to kill the tentacles in order to get back up top, you could walk to the North side of the room at any time and get thrown out. The point of killing the tentacles was so that C'thun would become "vulnerable" and your DPS could resume attacking him, which is why he is purple in your video after you killed the tentacles.
I remember that Paragon LK kill so well, because a guild from Dreadmaul (my server back in the day) called Adept claimed to be world first. There was this whole dispute who got the kill first in general chat, if Paragon got it or if Adept did. I dont remember the full details but it was so long ago. After all the years, Adept was named 3rd to kill Heroic ICC 25 man. Regardless, I just remember seeing some of the crazy players from Adept in Dalaran with 6000+ gearscore and Shadowmourne with their heroic T10s (one of the coolest sets ever) and being amazed. A Blood Elf Paladin called Qt and of course Klinda the undead warrior
Just listen to the Lich King and Yogg'Saron music... If they announce bc and wrath at some point I will straight up cry like a bitch The nostalgia is unreal
We were the only Alliance guild on our server to have Heroic Ragnaros on farm, sold a few mounts thanks to the difficulty of the raid. Cataclysm was peak raiding for our guild and loved all the raids
I actually ended up killing 10 man Heroic Lich King with a PUG when it was current content. A WoW friend and myself were at the time fed up with guild structure, being benched for certain fights, or just uninvited in favor of another player, or trying to get in/stay in core raid groups. However, we were both very competent at raid leading and understood the mechanics. So we started to PUG raids A LOT. And over time we started to learn and figure out who the best raiders were on our server that were unguilded or not in core raid groups for their guild. So when we'd form our PUG in all chat, we'd recognize names when people whispered us. Took a few weeks but we eventually got it.
I played in Ensidia during WOTLK. Was not part of the ICC raid due to school but raided everything up to that point. I do remember while being on a public test realm for Trial of the Crusader raid we experienced the saronite bomb-floor-bug: While we were waiting for boss respawn, one of our hunters (Munken) threw a saronite bomb on the floor for no reason. This caused the entire floor to collapse and we all fell down to Anub'arak room, without killing any bosses up top of the platform. At that point everyone in the raid came to the conclusion that saronite bombs did "funny" things to collapsible floors. Unsure if they deliberately used this bug on the NORMAL version of the lich king fight however, since normal mode did not matter for top world guilds.
you forgot to mention the real reason why Yogg+0 became easier after the first (i think 3? - stars, premonition, ...and Paragon? I think that may have been their first big kill as a 25man guild) guilds killed him. The hardest part of that entire fight was having the hunters be able to pick out the empowered add once the shadow beacons went out (due to the adds being all clumped up and dancing all around). With that initial change, blizzard re-named the adds that actually got buffed by the beacon to "Empowered". This allowed players (and mods) to much more easily pick them out in the 1-2 seconds they had to do so. There was even a mod that came out immediately which marked the empowered adds almost instantly and made it super easy for hunters to both see and coordinate which add they were taking.
Watching this at the end of 2021, I think some of my best memories were healing Avatar and KJ. So hard but so satisfying and we got the Cutting Edge kill the last day!
Nice vid. I've always been a bit miffed that M'uru was nerfed while we were progressing on it. It went right down after the nerf of course, but I wanted to kill the pre-nerf version. That was one rough heal.
Got this in my recommended, never played Warcraft and I have absolutely no clue what half of what you’re talking about means but still watched the whole thing lmao
have you started playing wow since then?
@MrSpiceBoi I am also curious. Did you start playing?
That means you have a life!
Are you addicted to UA-cam and his voice?
Have you tried it yet? Go for WoW Classic! :)
The best players in the entire world: We have proven this is impossible to do.
Blizzard: Git gud, scrubs.
people still believe the mathematically impossible crap after wow classic lol ?
Even the best players of 2005/2006 were noobs compared to your average raider of today, so they were kind of right
@@Sprachitektur wow classic uses the endgame patch, so the boss was already nerfed to shit lol
@roororoo Just compare how fast raids were cleared back in the day and today, between the best players of then vs now it's even more clear
Blizzard: try it with our GM gear
Jesus man, that's such a great video. You are successfully fighting the stereotype of "top 10" videos being low effort. The amount of research here is insane. Great Job.
Ya
@@wangchung5063 Pretty sure I've heard him mention in another video that he started in WotLK.
It was actually over kill. I didn’t ask for all a raid boss guide.
Lkllkklll kl lmncc za
Please refrain from using Lord’s Name in vain.
What a trip down memory lane, and the pleasing feeling to see M'uru at the top. Had the privilege to raid Vanilla to LK with in un-nerfed state competing for top 20 kills, being part of those 0.23% and early Yogg-0's. Just an amazingly hard fight which we only got right after the first pushback nerf.
One of the things you never mentioned about the M'uru fight is how incredibly hard this fight was for the two add-tanks. This was pre-aoe tanking so the adds running in at a very high speed and quite twitchy to move around, had to be nailed hard and swift - so perfect threat execution on two targets at the same time, because cleave damage was the only way to get them down fast enough. Very hard compared to after tanking changed to simplify aoe.
AoE tanking was from a different design perspective at that point, specific classes were given specific roles, my guild had a Protection Paladin for M'uru (I also respecced Protection when needed) which were considered the "AoE tanks" of the time. The previous raid of Mount Hyjaal required a protection paladin to deal with the adds that came with the multiple waves because only protection could hold multiple targets.
"One of the things you never mentioned about the M'uru fight is how incredibly hard this fight was for the two add-tanks."
Thank you so much for saying this. I was our feral offtank for the back-hallway and I was SOOO proud of how well I handled those adds while our DPS was going 100% all in on basically all three of them at the same time. I told our top dps'ers to go 100% and I don't care which ones you hit and I guaranteed they would not pull on any of the 3 no matter how hard they tried... and let me tell you, it took all of my focus and abilities to manage threat on all three of them. No one ever pulled on me.
My plan was basically to develop primary threat on one of the 3 while generating cleave-threat on the other two. I would just assume I would lose aggro on one of my secondary targets and I would plan it out that way. I'd wait for someone to pull aggro on a secondary target and immediately taunt and follow that up with maul/mangle. And then i would go back to ignoring that one that just pulled (and just cleaved it with swipes), where i would finally focus on the 3rd mob that I basically ignored the whole time until then. It was such a delicate balance but it truly pushed me to my limits. It was moments like this that made the entire game worth it for me. I'll remember that for the rest of my life.
I'm amazed you kept my attention for 50 minutes with this, it really did not feel like 50 minutes to me !
I just realized this video is 50 mins long after I finished the video and looked at your comment....
@@stevenchenzhanhua ^
@@stevenchenzhanhua yup me too, time really flies with good content
Steven Chen Same!
@@Celmestra im amazed he got me subscribed and i quit WoW 5 years ago lol
The thing that made Lich King so difficult for top guilds, was that you had to have 5 paladins and 2 disc priests in a 25 man raid to pair up aura mastery with shields for infest. Disc priests alone were not enough to fully absorb the infest without the aura mastery until the 25% buff came from the 5th month of the boss.
zavolaj Šimona zajebe ho healom
You say that but it will die the first day it's available with like 4 healers in the raid on wotlk classic. People were just bad back then, myself included, end of story.
@@Neurotik51 well yes and no. You forget a very very big part of the story: classic players have experience and knowledge about the full fight with the perfect roster comps.
You didnt have either of these back in 2010, you needed to figure it out yourself with a very limited time (since you were raid locked if u tried too many time).
I can roll up to an LOD raid rn and i know there will be 1 or 2 hpala and 1 disco and probably a pala and bear tank cuz thats just the easiest to do with. But back then trying to figure out all of this WHILE LK wasnt nerfed? Not a chance you could do that.
@@Neurotik51 you mean the ppl, who downed Yog 0 were bad? Let me remind you, Blizz doesnt know the exact value, of like anything, cause they didnt make backup (or they got lost who knows). Also, Blizz stated, classic is not vanilla, as you could have seen, ppl didnt really struggel with C'thun, cause they implemented the bug fixed, tuned fight outside of you know, no armor, dmg reduction, dmg done, etc values, and they probably dont want to over tune or have better testing teams, so they are more likely the undertune fights, compared to vanilla. You can say, the C'thun couldnt be beaten, cause they were bad, but LK was several years later, with players actually having experience, alt running, gear funneling etc.
Not true, me and a buddy were the 2 disc priests, and we could shield the whole raid before infest struck, and it got soaked completely.
Only when a disc priest got picked up by valkyr, it would be a possible wipe. We were guild 257 in the world that killed him on 25hc. And were realm first.. and realm second on 10hc, were we only had 2 healers, me as disc and a druid. Yes it was really hard, but doable.
Didn't even realize this video was 50 min until it was over. Your best video by far.
I cannot believe the amount of information you have on every encounter. Hell of a research
considering the amount of broken souls world of warcraft creates every raid tier. this is just a sample
I was a mage in a top guild during TBC and i had completly forgotten about the fact that everyone in the guild did indeed pick up leatherworking in order to use those drums. The prenerf Muru fight was just crazy. The mages had to mark and cc the humanoids spawning from the two opposite sides of the room perfectly while also counterspelling the casters. The tank would die due to the high amount of damage if he took more than 1 on at a time and if the caster adds werent counterspelled in time they would be in a bad location where melee dps wouldnt reach them fast enough and you would wipe because you would get overrun by adds because they spawned so frequently. Muru also spawned 1 big void walker which needed to be tanked and when it died it spawned a bunch of small adds that needed to be aoed quickly, our guild used warlocks that spammed some seed aoe ability, the name i cant remember. AND you needed to do dmg to Muru himself aswell and you needed to get a perfect transition into the dps race phase without any adds alive. And in addition to that the damage and healing required through the fight was crazy. The adds spawned so fast and had so much hp you had little time to dps Muru and Muru did high continuous dmg to the raid too, it was so much dmg and healing required that sometimes youd just wipe randomly because someone died or someone fucked up a crowd control or people focused too much on damaging muru so you got overrun by ads and sometimes people didnt damage Muru enough so the fight just lasted forever until someone inevitably died.
The dps phase while very hard was extremely simple and straightforward. He just did so much raid dmg and had so much hp you basically needed a perfect transition with no adds up and people in good locations with everyone alive and every important cooldown ready.
I also saw another comment about the bad fps in the fight and i can confirm i remember lowering my graphics settings myself aswell. The chain lightning in particular and everything else during the fight just killed your fps.
I remember only bringing one mage to the fight, cause mages were really bad in sunwell. and bringing a prot paladin to tank the void spawns made the fight a lot easier.
So in a nutshell, a fight with joke mechanics but overtuned hp and dmg. Well, if you overtune the hp and dmg on any boss in the game it becomes challenging, but in an artificial way, and Blizzard understood that. That's why I think later they amended that by brainstorming all kinds of mechanics for the bosses in later expansions.
@@vhyles Keep in mind we had very few addons to help us with the fight back then. We had a threat meter and i think we manually set up timers for when mobs would spawn. That was about it.
I'm not sure how many more mechanics you could realistically add to a fight in those conditions while still claiming it to be good design. Eyeballing the distance between every player around you to avoid the chain lightning while still being in reach to do the things you needed to do against moving targets with minimal lost time was pretty difficult on a shit computer with bad fps not gonna lie. But yes the hp and dmg was tuned very highly before the mega nerf in the weeks leading up to the wrath release.
@@antonsundin2974 Yeah, with no DBM I guess it would be harder to have a clean phase transition with no remaining adds. If we add to that the limits of the time, bad internet and low fps, that makes the fight exponentially harder. I'm just a bit surprised he was number 1 after seeing all the mad mechanics players must do on bosses in the latest expansions. But overall you have a point 👍
I'm very curious when TBC reaches its final phase how will players fare with Muru, with 0 lag, 100+ fps and DBM that shows the timers of spawns.
Ty for your input
@@vhyles Im sure he will go down within hours on the first day haha.
Makes me wish I was around to play so I could experience all these different raid bosses. So many raids missed
Imagine being a literal old god, one of the most powerful and malicious beings in existence, and not being more difficult to kill than some floating crystals
The Naaru and Old Gods are mapped out as the same tier as power, just on the opposite sides of the coin. So it's not too rough.
I mean you can make that argument for 90% of wow. A fel orc in Outland is weaker gameplay wise then a crab on Zandalar.
well an MMORPG Lore and Ingame are 2 different things. Not everything that comes up in Lore has to be the same for the game. Its the same nonsense that we are the heroes all the time.. even if it should be over, after the first death of our characters
Dude, a mob in current content is stronger than a raid boss from 2-3 expansions back. And there was also the mythic dungeon mechanic that stacked a health/damage buff on surviving mobs, allowing you to make an impossible to kill snail with billions of hp.
You never actually kill them truly and you fight them while they are still chained.
Right now however....it's a different situation with Azshara releasing N'zoth.
Holy hell...imagine wiping to the same boss 500+ times.
I get to 50 wipes and I'm like "WTF?!"
That's some real dedication, right there.
i get to like 3 and leave raidfinder
imo dieing hundreds of times to a boss was not as annoying and demoralizing as having every wipe take basically 20min in between pulls to run back to your body/zone, buff up, readycheck, mana up, etc only to get to that attempts cap blizz use to have from some of the last bosses in vanilla (Rag, Cthun) that would reset once a week; not to mention having the instance you got for that week was strictly the one you had for that week, you couldnt join another lockout until reset unless you paid to server xfer and even then.
M'uru was the hardest boss i've ever faced. Thanks for keeping it number one on the list.
I remember weeks of wipes, raiding sunday to thursday, 8pm to midnight.
And as a holy pally, i had a whole group to myself, with 3 shaman rotating mana tide when i asked and a shadow priest. Because the tank heal was INSANE!! zero breaks, moving from MT tanking the big void, to the pally tank getting the small adds. And my guild helped me farm dark runes from scholomance, so i could get another mana boost on the fight.
Ahhhh the good old days.
Those hours and days sounds just like my guild. Definitely the longest I remember ever being stuck on a boss. Our guild ended up raid stacking and so as a warrior tank, I ended up being in standby most of the time. Ultimately led me to stop raiding. Guild got him and cleared within a couple weeks. Maybe I sucked but those adds were hard to tank too. You had to pick them up so fast and with dps going all out as soon as possible, I had to be on my toes
This has to be the one of the best WoW list videos ever made. Wonderful work! I was shocked to see that I just watched a 50 minute list video, it was so good that it didn't seem longer than normal :) thanks for this masterpiece!
Please lpp
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So C'thun and Yogg-Saron were considered "mathematically impossible." Makes me wonder if Blizz made the Old Gods that way on purpose. If they did, then I might expect N'Zoth to be "mathematically impossible" as well.
i expect n'zoth to be the hardest raid boss to this point solely because he's the only old god we've faced who is fully released. c'thun and yogg were still partially imprisoned. I expect even normal to be decently difficult
Think lore wise we will not beat N'zoth at the end of the encounter
@@SmokerFace12 you cant kill old gods due to the damage it does to our planet as was found out when y'shaarj was killed its the reason why c'thun and yogg arent dead ether.
@@jandegrote1 oh i see, only play since Cata and didnt care for lore at all because I never understand half of whats going on.. But these Old Gods and Titans are getting very interesting now and might need to do some lore research :)
in this day? no. he'll be a push over like everything else they make now.
lore wise... sargeras should've swatted everyone like a fly but "let's make illidan commit suicide for literally no reason because we wrote it so poorly it's out of place for him to be imprisoned with him"
I'm surprised you didn't mention that Ion H himself was the dude from Death and Taxes that did some of the math to discover that C'Thuun was impossible
Ion was not in Death N Taxes. He was in elitist jerks which got banned from exploiting the skeram wall.
XI and Blacken were the DnT members arguing with the blizzard developers.
How do I know this you ask. I was a mage in Death N Taxes.
It's funny that you mention your drawings at the ending as my immediate thought during the Lich King boss explanation was just the drawing you did of picking up the stick figure and gently placing them. I know you didn't like the illustrations, but that one always comes to mind when talking about the bomb exploit. :' )
Lovely video and I look forward to the next revisit 5 years from now! :D
You should definitely keep it up with the reforged content. The work you put into them is so worth it.
Awesome top.
Will you do a "Story of Class Specs" in the future? Like, "History of Combat Rogues" "History of Fury Warriors" "History of Shadow Priests" etc, etc, etc.
In defense of your original top ten hardest raid bosses video, I have to say the Paint drawings gave it a nice descriptive touch. While raid footage is better to show what you are talking about, sometimes the chaotic mishmash of spell effects clouds the mechanics, so the little paint drawings makeit simple to understand at a basic level. It's a bit like a more energetic Bob Ross explaining raid mechanics.
In particular I love the Lich King rising Sindragosa part.
32:46 Turns out the line between "clever use of game mechanics" and "illegal exploit" is a real fine one. To my mind, that was just a brilliant creative move on their part: they dealt with the mobs, using game mechanics. They didn't remove lines of code, walk through walls or glitch anything obviously shady like that. In the same way that a paladin may bubble to prevent all incoming damage, warlocks negating a debuff altogether by just draining life, or someone kiting a pack of mobs for an entire fight. The difference between an evade and a kite/bubble/total negation is hardly that significant when you're up against one of the toughest bosses in the game's history. Hell, most people posited that it was mathematically impossible, so no wonder they found themselves having to get real creative, and props to them for going the extra mile to prove them wrong.
Peace!
Just a small note on your end segment; Kil'Jaeden, in sunwell, was not a hard fight. His low kill count was quite literally only because M'uru was so hard. Most guilds that managed to kill M'uru would kill KJ within a day or two of killing M'uru. I know my guild at the time quite literally killed him the next raid day. We always attributed it to the fact that everyone in the raid at that point was so close to mechanically perfect due to M'uru, so all the mechanics on KJ had so much room for error that it was kind of a joke; this despite the mechanics looking difficult to someone not directly raiding the content.
@unknowning unknown hahhaha are u offended or something?
Well it was kind of hard, but... he was so much easier than M'uru that it just never seemed that hard to anyone capable of even getting to him. Funny kind of thing when the 2nd to last boss of a raid is harder then the last one.
KJ in TOS however, was pure misery. The reason why ALLY players couldnt kill him is because anyone who couldnt jump back on the platform...well they went off the platform.
I played swp on a buffed private server and muru was rly easy, if priests and tanks knew what to do. As dps you just go out prior ti the dark area and then aoe the adds.
I feel honored to be apart of the .23% to complete ICC when it was current content... the glory days
I wasn't (only saw the first few bosses of ICC, but frankly: It really were the glory days for me, too because I haven't raided much since, especially since most of my friends stopped playing (only returning for a month here a month there etc.))...and that is ok, because seeing the last encounter of an expansion should not be trivial (note: But raiding should also not require you to run a shit-ton of mythic dungeons etc....the early encounters should basically equip you for the later ones and be doable in green-gear!)
ok boomer
I loved Tanking that fight back in the day.
ICC and Lich King as a whole were the golden days of WoW and what I remember most fondly
Thank you for this awesome upload! The elaborate explanation of Archimonde's mechanics made me realize why so many raiders were tired of soaking mechanics during that time!
I’ve been subscribing to this channel recently and I’ve just been blown away by the nostalgic factor. You see, I played wow vanilla when it first came out and I would definitely call myself more of a casual gamer. These raid bosses in vanilla wow were statistically very rare for the average gamer to participate, requiring large amounts of game coordination and dedication for gear leveling and such. Basically 15 years later I'm learning about parts of a game I really was unable to experience 15 years ago. I've never encountered cthun let alone been able to play in AQ. Hell I only had parts of a tier 1 set! Altogether, I really appreciate your videos ! Thank you!!!
The ending of this video is great, it ends on such a humble note and gave me goosebumps. I’ve been slowly burning through your content and look forward to when I can chill and watch you analyse wow. 😊 thank you for all the hard work you put in for this channel.
Putting M’uru on top is spot on. Our guild also got disbanded after countless tries on it. I was the Warrior MT . IMO, humanoid adds were insanely fun n relatively easy to tank with the help of spell reflection. But we always sucked at transitioning on to 2nd phase just as you mentioned. Good memories though : ) Thanks for the beautifully compiled video!
I personally was so gratified to see Fallen Avatar on the list. Doing him on heroic in Legion nearly made me quit raiding altogether, and forced a complete re-construction of my raid team.
Heroic? I cleared hc Tomb pug on some crappy geared shaman healer.
Heroic lul
I quited because of him on mythic, tomb of soak killed raider in me.
I've raided a lot of raids til Legion, cleared naxx in classic and did all the HC and later Mythic Raids and I absolutely loved the WoD Mythic Raidcontent. Mythic Archimonde was such a lovely fight.
They should release un-nerfed Cthun when it drops on classic; I have a feeling he would drop.
Stack 20 dps warriors doing 1k dps, he WILL drop
@@frederickroy7039 with reliable internet and communication, its made classic a lot easier.
As someone who was in a top 20 guild and had 3 months of wipes on C'thun in Vanilla, he wouldn't. There were too many bugs in the fight that made it un-killable; for instance sometimes he would put people in his stomach and there wouldn't be any way to get out.
Probably would with 1.12 talents since they itself increase damage significantly. (the case of not enough dps, not sure about other bugs etc.)
Also class stacking would help on that since that didn't really happen much in the old days.
I was hoping for a mention of the stack overflow error from the reverse chain lightening. If the raid ran in together, players could get hit for more damage than the server had integers (at the time) and so players died after taking -1 damage.
I really liked all the diagrams, drawings and Hearthstone footage you used to show raid mechanics. It helped break up the video and make it more interesting. You should do that more often
As a point of data, Alone in the Dark pre-nerf (it was 4 weeks after Stars got it that it was nerfed) took us (Fusion) 354 wipes to get it, though it was weeks after the world first, we raided a lot less than everyone who got it before us, and we had to spend far fewer wipes in the last phase than most because we had an addon writer that wrote a pair of addons to coordinate marking the adds. So 500+ for the guilds ahead of us sounds right.
"One quick video before I go sleep", I said.
I couldn't skip a single second of this perfectly put together video. I loved all the details about the specific mechanics. You are very knowledgeable. And even the music is well selected and spot on.
The original version of this video was the first video I've watched on this channel, and how I ended up subscribing. How time flew.
The cheese in this list can be summarized in one meme:
Warlock: *exists*
Overtuned bosses: Why do I hear boss music?
Warlocks rock man!
well that tells you all you need to know about us Warlocks ;) pretty sure Isle of Quel'Danas PvP'ers heard that same bawz music play when we decided to have some fun there ^_^ ahh those were some fun days :D almost as fun as thunderpunting alliance raids at the Thunderbluff elevators back in the day with my shammy XD now those were some really good times... puts a smile on my face thinking about it
Timeless Isle too, to some extent. I used to pull some tortoises from the shallows with my demon pet to kill afk'ers at the beach. Until I learned that their aggro are unusually stuck for the longest range. So I proceed to pull the biggest, baddest tortoise from deeper water, and brought them along to the Celestial arena to ensure maximum chaos.
Fun time.
@@andy.w There is a special place in hell for people like you!
Namely the board of executives! Welcome aboard.
Warlocks also made the val kyr on Lich King easier
Hiru, this was insanely well made. It's got all the information that videos like this normally don't have, and you explain everything perfectly.
I'd like to mention that Mimiron was changed after week 1, due to a "bug" where the gatling gun part of his body in phase 4 would not be locked to the floor, but follow the orientation of the base, meaning that if that gatling went off at the same time as the shockwave, the tank would need to run out as well. Now, after shockwave completed, the boss would jerk to a start, following the tank that ran away, and if gatling gun was still firing, he'd swipe a basically random 1/4 of the room, often leading to wipes. Not to mention that the hard mode was incredibly tightly tuned, until it was finally nerfed something like 60+ days into the Ulduar patch. Week 1 Mimiron was only killable on normal mode because you could stack the raid to have the tank live through the shockwave, thereby preventing the random gatling kills. It felt like quite the achievement at the time to clear Ulduar week 1! I do think that the problem here was unintended behaviour, so the fix was immediate.
14:03 Star Augur is laughing at us.
blizzard employee: "its possible, you just need to get better"
It was literally impossible at the time.
That Blizzard employee could charitably be described as 'full of shit'.
I can bet they didn't even play test it.
@@raimondsstokmanis1892 I feel like there's a lot of stuff they didnt play test especially in vanilla. For example I started levelling a druid in classic and in bear form I found out the hard way you cannot use a health pot at a critical moment while in bear form, you have to get out of bear form and btw you cannot even pop bark skin in bear form LOL!!
Blizzard Employee who maybe clears LFR or doesn't even play the game*
@@Orthane In Vanilla there was no LFR. It was all Blizz doing stuff on the fly and letting the players find all the bugs. Vanilla was horrible for all sorts of bad bugs, especially for pets of Hunters and Locks.
This is the type of video I can truly sit back, relax and enjoy watching for 50 minutes :)
?? Very over analyzed with random information that doesn't pertain to difficulty of bosses what so ever. Pretty odd formula for a video.
@@tipsysmichigander6483 And? He perfectly explains why every boss is difficult, if that is only what you need. Why are you saying this?
@@fifaskillman
hirumaredx knows why and that is all that matters... This video being 49:00 minutes long, he wont receive a fraction of his normal view count. He already knows it and is wondering why he didn't break this video up into numerous videos. Wasn't being rude just honest.
@@tipsysmichigander6483 Maybe he doesnt care that much about viewers? Maybe he just wants to put out quality content for people that enjoy this stuff?
@@tipsysmichigander6483 Even if the older video is one of his most famous videos with 1.6 mil . You heard it yourself, he doesn't like it mostly because it was rushed. If you gonna make a top 10 hardest boss videos , you better explain why each boss was so difficult to be on the list and include some minor details because they also played a role , like the pet that gives 20% reduced nature dmg , which helped on c'thun stomach mechanic. That's what he had to do , and that is exactly what he did
I hate large videos but you can feel how much effort it's been put on this, you tell the stories as well as your voice, animation everything is been done in such a way that I finished the video without noticing how large It was and enjoying It, I love your videos!
Alone in the Dark was hands down the best fight ever for me, probably because I MT'd it which was incredibly fun and tense. LK was so amazing to, both on 10 which was way more fun to play than 25 imo. We also did both without c-res... kinda crazy, but I think the difficulty was healthier then.
ahh, M'uru. As a Void Spawn (and Entropius) tank, I must have gone through thousands of Ironshield pots. That was a requirement back then, haha. +2500 armor (around 12% of a raid-buffed warrior tank's armor in sunwell).
Being your #1 hardest fight (which I agree with), you should have taken time to mention the door adds and how BRUTALLY hard they hit. You needed very well put together groups on each side to handle them. This was another major part of the fight where you needed to deal with something in PERFECT TIMING (as it was nearly impossible to kill them with time to spare prior to the next group running out, and if you got 2 groups at once it was pretty much over right there). Anyway, thanks for the nostalgia.... Being a TBC-Cata main tank in progression guilds was one of the best times I've ever had in my life.
I will note that C'thun should be more highly ranked however, as C'Thun was actually possible in his unnerfed state and a single kill was logged mere hours before the patch went live. What was not typically known was just how difficult the fight was pre nerfs, to the point where it was only achievable with the BiS Nature Resist gear for every character in the raid, as well as having Nature Resist flasks on everyone. And this was before the Shadow of Naxxramas patch which made Black Lotus tradeable, which means everyone in the raid had to, alone, level and cap their armorcrafting professions and material profession, then unlearn both of those professions and level alchemy and herbalism from 0.
Conversely, M'Uru was actually harder then even intended, as the World First Kalegos kill was achieved by using the TBC drumcircle strategy, which was then immediately patched out. Until that kill, Drums werent just spammable, they stacked. And this was a massive buff to raiders. 5% haste is good as a static statistic, 25% haste lasting 30 seconds was incredible in TBC.
Our first pull my tank got basically oneshotted by them, so a bit hard to heal you might say.
Very well done, I feel kind of set back in time when I progressed many of these bosses! For me the hardest was also Muru, who my guild wasn't able to defeat pre-nerf. But we killed him/her directly after the hotfixes were applied. Sadly I never had the chance to progress Cthun, I think it would've been fun! Thanks for the video!
Yep, I’d have to say anyone who faced muru back in the day is a badass, or even stepping into sunwell pre nerfs
Yogg 0 5 to 3 shadow beacons was a huge deal, I remember as a tank and a top 30 world kill basically the 2 tanks just made /target/taunt macros and since the /target system targets the closest add then each tank could kinda of pull the buffed adds to the side and then we had a DK go frost stance and taunt the last one out.
Muru from a tanking PoV was a favorite. If you tanked one of the sides each one had it's nuances and remember back then you really only had good single target threat so if you didn't use poly keeping threat on 3 mobs that dps were trying to blow up ASAP was fun as a warrior b/c you just wore dps gear lol. I know our prot pld loved solo tanking the Shadow big/small adds, there were a couple of strats to do that but yeah we just used 3 tanks for the fight, some ppl used 4 or 3 tanks and 1 holy PLD to tank the small adds.
Actually hogger is the hardest boss in the history of wow.
Only for the Alliance
Right TLDR hogger , role the credits
Right. You only can try hogger HC with a 40 man BiS Gear exp. Crew
LFM hogger 1/1 HC 15/40
LFM hogger xmog run, linen cloth RES.
"taking care by a pair of shadow priests mass dispelling"
I was doing that part solo, for months. Never even thought about wasting 2 shadows on that task, as occasional misses could been dispelled by a target macro and the second shadow generating more mana in that time.
Considering during BC nobody played shad priests I’d say they were hard to find
Same I was the only spriest in my guild FUUUUUCL that fight dude
36:23 Fun fact: Current WoW Game Director Ion Hazzikostas was the one who did the math confirming pre need C'Thuh was mathematically impossible in a forum post back in the day when he was the GM of the guild Elitist Jerks. They also had a website whos forums was the go-to spot for the hardcore raiding community and where most of the theorycrafting (as well as a bunch of math to support it) went to for the latest class min/maxing, optimal talent builds, and strats in the days before the removal of talent trees and the arrival of simming, boss journals, titanforging, and all the other resources you have today were available.
If you watch old Elitist Jerks guides from vanilla and TBC it's usually Ion who is explaining how their guild did it.
10 - 0:00 Fallen Avatar
9 - 5:08 Blackhand
8 - 7:04 Archimonde
7 - 10:30 Ragnaros
6 - 13:22 Uu'nat
5 - 17:26 The Lich King
4 - 21:30 Legion Kil'Jaeden
3 - 28:46 Yogg-Saron
2 - 36:05 C'thun
1 - 41:31 M'uru
Well done mate. Your hard work after 5 years certainly shows. Keep up the efforts mate, I’m a big fan!
TFW the only instance you've ever been in WoW is Wailing Caverns and yet you still want to raid just because how awesome this video is.
Even in BFA we dont even bother doing KJ during transmog runs on mythic.
Good luck ever trying to organise a transmog run pug to not get booted off the platform immediately. Having top level difficulty mechanics that do not scale to level have been the bane of transmog groups forever. Razorgore, felmyst, KJ etc.
Tomb of Sargeras was popular with 1-shot death mechanics even on LFR mode.
When you were talking about Mythic KJ and how there are three more difficult bosses in WoW's history, I thought for sure you were going to put Yogg'Saron no lights as number 1 because I seem to remember only one guild being able to kill it while it was current and a few guilds thinking it was mathematically impossible, but then it was immediately after KJ. MonkaS
I also question the lack of Kael'Thas in the video, which went unkilled by *anyone* while it was current.
It’s really telling how boss difficulty has been refined since most of the bosses in the video are from last 2 expacs
Having multiple difficultys allows the top end to be harder and the "bottom" to be easier at the same time.
To be fair, neither C'thun or M'uuru deserve to be on this list. Vanilla/TBC boss difficulty is laugable by today standards (taking in consideration only Mythic mode obv).
@@Cr4ZyHaloBob that's kinda true, when you take a look at it you could say that M'uru was hard because best possible raid dps at the time was 20k (example number, I never played on tbc so I don't know how much should a raid be pushing at the time), and M'uru's requirement was that same 20k, that means it's ridiculously hard, but it's fake difficulty.
Still, great video
@@Cr4ZyHaloBob Not really. Yes, there were less mechanics, but they also needed to be executed well. Also gearing for a content was a lot harder, especially since you have to gear full 40 people at least and mostly a lot more because not all can play and you had to have backup. There were no alt runs because just reaching 60 was a lot of time. You only had one difficulty of raid and that is it. But hey, we have classic now. I would honestly love to see C'thun with its original mechanics and hp. Lets see if its killable without all the nerfs.
@@vasilije94 "but they also needed to be executed wel" yes, exactly like today, with the difference that vanilla bosses had very very few mechanics that were also very basic and, while punishing, easy to execute thanks to the low pacing of vanilla encounters and little to none mechanics overlap. Players back then where just much less skilled and experienced. This is why MC got totally destroyed in classic, and the other raids will share the same fate.
The fun thing about the explanation for Kil´jeaden is; and there was this additonal mechanic on top of this.... for like 5 Minutes. I loved this fight.
This is what made it tough to quit wow after MoP; blizzard was starting to evolve their Pve mechanics by some amazing fights during MoP, and set the requirement of Skill, Dedication and knowledge to a new level. Seems like they did a remarkable job of continuing- and expanding their Great Pve raiding !!
Yup. Raid got infinitely better with Siege of Orgrimmar.
Mop casualfied the game
@@_AriseChicken lol, tell that to any high rated pvp player with 50 keybinds/macros, or the raider who spent hours utilizing reforge and stat calculations, perfecting every role-equivalent specc on their class and push the rotation to the limit. Gear didnt even carry you, or define how well you performed, if you didnt know how to use it. Theres no way you could be succesfull as casual player, but all preceeding expansions, you could achieve the majority of everything without putting in maximum effort
@@ru99414 ill tell it to all the players who had to play with simplified talents and gear. oh yea everyone. congrats you were high rated on the easiest expac. Also reforge addons, which had millions of downloads.
I knew muruu was gonna be #1! But what made this video so good was how in depth your explanation was on why they were so difficult.
Just imagine how many bosses blizzard has done, pretty crazy :) Coming up with new stuff all the time for each exp.
They save time by clearly not playtesting them enough :O
@Lucas Oliveira lol ya that or taking mechanics from other mmos XD Most wow players dont realize just how much they take from other mmos.
@@deaconfrost796 It's quite the opposite. Other MMOs hard copy from WoW.
You didn't mention the gravity bombs on Entropius that throw you uncontrollably around the room constantly. The M'uru phase was controllable and you decided when you pushed into the last phase. Entropius was just crazy and a mad rush to try to heal and hit the boss. There would be lots of times we would get a perfect kill on M'uru, but then wipe on Entropius.
I just remember how happy my raid leader was on Yogg 0 when he found out I not only could, but preferred affliction.
The fact that you put a lot more time and effort into this video really shows. Thanks for the great video dude
Thanks Hiru! I thought I was gonna watch this in intervals but I was enthralled the entire time! Fun and enjoyable watch!
YES INDEED and i really mean indeed because Heru making this video introduced me to things about these bosses I diden't know at first!!!😀😄👏👏👏
wow, didnt even realise I had been watching this for 50 minutes xD But man, this was a really nice video. I loved all the info u had on each boss etc. Keep up the good work my dued cuz you got yourself a new subscriber!
I remember the first video. Thanks for the 5years Hiru. Didn't realize it had been that long.
what a great video full flashback my memories,to reminds me i was there..in every boss..in every single expansion..18 years passed..im still here..
hiru your content and commentary is so good that i never played wow and still watched a 50 min video about it
dude ive been watching Duel Logs for so long and i didnt realize you also made wow content, thats crazy
Same except his dnd channel lol. I watched the WoW stuff first, years ago & came across his dnd content, like I recognize this voice from somewhere…
this video was so good. 50 minuets wasnt a waste. good job hiru
I also liked the Proving Grounds (kind of a precursor to the mage Tower) and the brawlers Guild, both added in MoP. Great video, really enjoyed it...
Honorable Mention that you missed: Horridon 10m Heroic. In 25m Heroic, Horridon was relatively easy. Unfortunately, the fight consists nearly entirely of dealing with waves of adds that are more of a pain than the boss. In the 10m version of the fight, originally it was spawning adds in the same number and scaling (health and damage) as the 25m version of the fight: this made the fight impossible to beat, as you were basically trying to 10m a 25m encounter.
You prob dont read comments on this anymore, but I have used this video to fall asleep for about 6months now, listen to it every single night. Helps me sleep, thanks for this masterpiece
Blizz since launch: "Derp, what is playtesting?"
Funny that Blackhand was the only one deserdly difficult for just being hard and not from Blizzard fucking up tuning or releasing a fight not done yet
Speaking personally I loved your little shortcuts in the previous video, I thought it was really cute showing 4horseman in hearth and the little drawings of the bosses :)
Thanks for making this vid! Took me down memory lane, and explained why these bosses were hard, rather then just buggy. Although they were all buggy.
Watching the video helped me know about a Lot of things about these bosses i dident even know about around the time! 🖐️😄🖐️
Archimonde is one of those bosses that usually slips under the radar when it comes to difficulty. I think you put it well; the amount of never before seen tactics in combination with the two extreme resource checks (dps in P1 and battleresses in P3) made it suuuch a satisfying race.
I can only imagine what it would look like, had it not been for the emergence of the insane WeakAuras.
Because of that, i recommend checking out Paragon’s killvid, and the beauty that is their handling of the chaos beam mechanics
The guild I was in during BC - Invictus : Alexstrazsa - took ~2+ months to kill Mu'ru. It took us less time to kill Kil'Jaeden.
I want to add to the C'thun stomach what you mixed up there (just a little mistake):
You were able to jump out of the stomach immediately, what was the case for some classes or players that got eating up at low HP.
However, the hard thing was to time killing the 2 tentacles in the right time for the weakening phase which means you had to kill the big eyes or big claws outside, quickly before the 2 stomach tentacles got killed. That was EXTREMELY hard (I experienced it back then and we never managed to kill C'Thun in before TBC) to manage for a raid for 40 people especially since there was no boss with as many different mechanics as C'Thun at that time. This was just too much for most guilds to handle at the same time and it took years for players to figure out some position tactics (on classic private servers) for phase 2 that significantly made the fight easier.
Great video mate, awesome content and lovely work!
Seeing all the old gods in this list makes me think about N'zoth in 8.3
Ah, I remember M'uru. My guild got him to sub-9% numerous times pre-nerf, but one or two people dying early in the 2nd phase would ruin it every time. Killed him the very day he got his first nerf. Was a bit disappointed, but we did also got Kil'Jaeden down in another week or two. Tanked him as a warrior, which wasn't the way to do it really. Was a lock tank fight since he had a knockback if you tried to melee tank him, but being a tauren gave me a bit longer of a reach and my charge got me right back into the very edge of his hit box. Plus our lock tank was bad at it. Even decided to tank the flame Eredar Twin since he was squishy as shit. Took about 5 pulls to get them down the first time and it was a joke after that once I figured out the patterns and kept an extra eye out for the little shadow duplicates that would blow up. If you were a melee tank like me and you got stunned, she'd run off to get ranged again and kinda screw things up. But we got them down easy either way.
my problem with the new lore/bosses is they aren't memorable. I remember marrowagger so vividly, distinct look and mechanics and just a great fun intro boss.
Bryce Small Marrowgar was sick. Great first boss to introduce you to the “flavor” of ICC. A lot of blue and white, high vaulted ceilings, wiiiiide open platform, crazy reverby voice ambience. BOOOOOOOOOOOONE STOOOOOOOOORM
i doubt ill ever forget progressing on mythic helya or star augur
I raided in vanilla & TBC and played a little in WotLK so I’m not familiar with most of these bosses but you made me watch the entire video. Great job making this video.
The segment about the C'thun stomach room is inaccurate. You didn't have to kill the tentacles in order to get back up top, you could walk to the North side of the room at any time and get thrown out. The point of killing the tentacles was so that C'thun would become "vulnerable" and your DPS could resume attacking him, which is why he is purple in your video after you killed the tentacles.
The amount of effort and research put into this was insane. Thank you sir.
I'm still proud of having gotten my 25-man Achievement mount from Icecrown during the LK expansion.
I remember that Paragon LK kill so well, because a guild from Dreadmaul (my server back in the day) called Adept claimed to be world first. There was this whole dispute who got the kill first in general chat, if Paragon got it or if Adept did. I dont remember the full details but it was so long ago. After all the years, Adept was named 3rd to kill Heroic ICC 25 man.
Regardless, I just remember seeing some of the crazy players from Adept in Dalaran with 6000+ gearscore and Shadowmourne with their heroic T10s (one of the coolest sets ever) and being amazed. A Blood Elf Paladin called Qt and of course Klinda the undead warrior
Just listen to the Lich King and Yogg'Saron music...
If they announce bc and wrath at some point I will straight up cry like a bitch
The nostalgia is unreal
We were the only Alliance guild on our server to have Heroic Ragnaros on farm, sold a few mounts thanks to the difficulty of the raid. Cataclysm was peak raiding for our guild and loved all the raids
Warlocks the class with the most ways to cheese boss fight mechanics
Mage, hunter, and rogue have dominated that aspect of raiding for over a decade.
Utility.
Alternative title. Top 10 bosses that made people cry, rage and break down both physically and mentally
One or may be the best video i have ever seen about wow raids. You have earned my sub and follow. Thanks for the very well done job.
I actually ended up killing 10 man Heroic Lich King with a PUG when it was current content. A WoW friend and myself were at the time fed up with guild structure, being benched for certain fights, or just uninvited in favor of another player, or trying to get in/stay in core raid groups.
However, we were both very competent at raid leading and understood the mechanics. So we started to PUG raids A LOT. And over time we started to learn and figure out who the best raiders were on our server that were unguilded or not in core raid groups for their guild. So when we'd form our PUG in all chat, we'd recognize names when people whispered us. Took a few weeks but we eventually got it.
"Hirumagold"
The bald one? monkaS
Hab dich das letzte mal vor 5 jahren geguckt :D krass dich hier zu sehen! Hast einen neuen Alten Abonnenten zurück! :) horde oder allianz..?
Great video man. If you are going to redo this video, would you do a top 20 or would that just make the video really long?
Keep up the good work!
Actually watched the whole thing, good content man :D
I played in Ensidia during WOTLK. Was not part of the ICC raid due to school but raided everything up to that point. I do remember while being on a public test realm for Trial of the Crusader raid we experienced the saronite bomb-floor-bug: While we were waiting for boss respawn, one of our hunters (Munken) threw a saronite bomb on the floor for no reason. This caused the entire floor to collapse and we all fell down to Anub'arak room, without killing any bosses up top of the platform. At that point everyone in the raid came to the conclusion that saronite bombs did "funny" things to collapsible floors.
Unsure if they deliberately used this bug on the NORMAL version of the lich king fight however, since normal mode did not matter for top world guilds.
you forgot to mention the real reason why Yogg+0 became easier after the first (i think 3? - stars, premonition, ...and Paragon? I think that may have been their first big kill as a 25man guild) guilds killed him. The hardest part of that entire fight was having the hunters be able to pick out the empowered add once the shadow beacons went out (due to the adds being all clumped up and dancing all around). With that initial change, blizzard re-named the adds that actually got buffed by the beacon to "Empowered". This allowed players (and mods) to much more easily pick them out in the 1-2 seconds they had to do so. There was even a mod that came out immediately which marked the empowered adds almost instantly and made it super easy for hunters to both see and coordinate which add they were taking.
Watching this at the end of 2021, I think some of my best memories were healing Avatar and KJ. So hard but so satisfying and we got the Cutting Edge kill the last day!
Oh, the 20-25 minute Illidan fights. 🥶
it as pretty chill tho, i remember we downed it after 10/15 wypes
I always enjoy your content Hiru, even the early beta rag sketch. Keep up the good work bro!👏👏
Raid boss too hard to kill
Warlocks : allow us to introduce ourselves
Is for me 👉👈😳
Nice vid. I've always been a bit miffed that M'uru was nerfed while we were progressing on it. It went right down after the nerf of course, but I wanted to kill the pre-nerf version. That was one rough heal.