Thank you for steelmanning the atheist position. It's rare to hear it articulated in a way that doesn't try to shift the burden of proof. I feel the same way about perpetual motion machines. I would never say one doesn't exist. It would be awesome if it did! But as of yet, I haven't seen sufficient evidence. And to make matters worse, when evidence is presented, it always turns out to be a hoax.
I found the video disappointing since the only thing you covered was whether or not "it's not that we believe a negative, it's that we don't believe your claim because you've failed to make a convincing argument" is a logical philosophy. I'd think that'd be obvious. There is so much more to Hitchens views and you only covered an introductory statement...essentially defining terms before beginning the actual arguments.
Holy mackerel... Why not take 6 minutes just to state what Aethiests think?.... that they aren't convinced of any God being real, because of a lack of evidence. This is the summary of the video, and it brings the (super old and over-argued) conversation NOWHERE. Good job. 👍
Yes spiritual people can only witness to their truth , everyone can and should know God but you have to knock on his door by praying and reading the Bible.
@@user-wy1dl2me2p Done all that and left even more convinced that there is no basis for belief. "Everyone should know god" is just giving everyone license to claim that some undetectable immaterial mind that exists outside of space and time shares their personal opinions.
There is no basis for any discussion until the term 'god' is defined. There are possible 'gods' whose existence can not be positively ruled out such as a classic deistic entity. This isn't to say that there is any compelling evidence for this god, just that it can't be considered impossible. The classic Christian 'tri-omni' god, however, can be considered non-existent as two of its defining characteristics, omniscience and omnipotence, lead to a wide variety of self-contradictions, both independently and in conjunction.
I don't think you really got into the meat of the issue. Hitchens has often said people can believe what they want on their own, just don't force it on me and my children. So I think you both agree on that point. But he's also saying: you might want some valid evidence for your beliefs. A god can't be logicked into existence, there must be evidence. In other words, you might be able to make a valid logical point (conclusion follows the premises, whether the premises are actually true or not) about the existence of a god, but you must make a sound argument (requiring true premises) as well to be taken seriously.
I don't understand how me saying there is no god is overstepping but you telling me you know there is one and you somehow picked the right one is all cool. I'm really not sure theists realize that atheism is a lack of belief not another religion, we don't have little meetings plotting to topple whichever god you follow, we just don't believe you.
It sounds like the Abrahamic position is that Human Beings on Planet Earth are the main point of the Universe, i.e., the Universe was made for us Human Beings via Jesus or Allah or whatever gods you grew up with…Yay Us! It’s astonishing that folks can be so emotionally needy and childish that any idea that contradicts this view makes the folks uncomfortable and/or seethe with anger. It’s so odd that this myopic, self-centered state of mind won’t allow people to understand or empathize with a non-theistic and non-self-serving position.
I find that St. Paul, not Jesus, is the infantilizing force in Christianity. Jesus spoke of doing good acts, which requires personal characteristics of maturity, dignity, benevolence and ability to share abundance. Jesus’s teachings are reviled in the Pauline world. Paul refers to his suckling infant flock, and supplants infantile love as “faith,” a feeling which is personal that no human can truly see in others. One cannot prove one’s genuine faith clearly, so only Pauline boasting is the method to show you are The Best Christian. It makes for a beggarly person, a welfare Christian not able to do and act, just to feel one is full of grace, a splendid attitude which feeds no hungry, clothes no naked, comforts no prisoner, but just allows you the immobile bliss if the infant.
Do you have any evidence of a friend? How do you know unless you try to get close ? He will reveal himself if you try to connect with him. Try a local Bible church .
David’s Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God’s “Forgiveness” (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB) Thus says the Lord: ‘I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives (!) while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.’ Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan answered David: “The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die.” [The child dies seven days later.] This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!
Fortunately, most god definitions by the believers are of a nature whereby we all can rule-out that god. Omnipotence, as a possible predicate for a god, renders that god nonexistent. The problem is that omnip is it is paradoxical and self-refuting. It is trivial to name things which an omnip character could not do -- simply by virtue of the definition of omnip. People naively try to REDEFINE omnip to be something (then) wholly different from omnip to SUCH a degree that every single thing is accordingly omnip (by the new definition). So most christian gods cannot exist (since each person defines their god differently).
Absolutely. I made a similar point above. Omnipotence and omniscience both lead to self-contradictions. Omnibenevolence may not but it's even less in evidence than the first two attributes.
God cannot be found through science and reason, nor will you find evidence to prove God exists. You can only find God through His word. If you want to find something, you have to look where it can be found.
What is not understood by atheists is there are many people who don't "believe" in God but *experience* God, but not the God of the Abrahamic religions, which in their mass applications are rather primitive. The idea that the intellect, senses or logic is a part of self built to access higher order frequencies within self (aka "God") is a completely flawed assumption. It's like trying to demand FM on an AM radio. If I tell you of my hundreds, almost daily now, encounters with and immersion with that higher energy, the default atheist position is to deny and dismiss, partly because there is no foundation for credulity for such experiences or denial because to begin to open to the possibility leaves one with a good portion of identity unravelled. Sam Harris is interesting as a middle ground as he is starting to get it.
not quite. You are free to believe as you see fit based on reasons you find convincing, including whatever experiences your are referring to. As long as you don't expect other people to believe as you do, or to modify their behavior because of what you believe, I don't think an "atheist" has any problem with you, though they may not particularly enjoy your company.
@@ericb9804"I don't think an "atheist" has any problem with you," To be kind that is an etremely naive statement based on my extensive life experience with atheists in many venues. I'm not asking atheists to do anything. I actually believe atheism has great value in the world. more pehaps than you do yourself. And we could talk about that. I am only pointing out that the demand of proof about God be met on ground of your choosing (it's your video-you posted it ) rather than some realization there may be other foundations that are as valid seems to be off limits. I adore Carl Sagan but he just took every nook and cranny of the mystical and paranormal, shoved it in a closet and said, we just don't look at those things, nothing to see here. What is interesting about him (among many great qualities) is he was quite intrigued by the Vedas as to cosmic time but he never followed up to explore their conclusion or descriptions of the nature of consciousness.
@@kenkaplan3654 I'm sorry for whatever negative experiences you have had with atheists. And I didn't make this video, but I get your point. I don't speak for all atheists, but as pertains to "the mystical and paranormal," I don't think it quite that "other foundations are off limits," as much as the perception that those "other foundations" tend not to facilitate the same level of consensus building and problem solving that characterizes the sciences. Its much less clear what the utility of those "other foundations" are, which is not to say they are "off limits," only that its not surprising that they don't command the same level of attention. I wish you had better experiences with atheists. As an "atheist," I don't begrudge you whatever specific beliefs and "foundations" you are referring to, provided you don't use those beliefs and foundations to make demands of me, which it seems you are not. Good luck to you.
Bottom line is still the same: You say you "experience God" but don't necessarily believe in a god, and yet you, like all believers, are unable to validate that experience with evidence. You've done nothing more than take an exit off the main god freeway to find your own experience in a town not on the map. I've done and continue to do the same thing, but I make no claims that I'm experiencing any type or god or supernatural entity.
@@markdomar4944 When you come up with something original beyond the usual parroting, or bring some actual openness or curiosity to the table, get back to me.
God has spoken to me on more than one occasion. I have seen Him work miracles in peoples lives. He has given my brother and I each prophetic dreams about the other one's children regarding things about which we had no foreknowledge. There is no logically defensible proofs because God is not understandable with our finite minds. If He were He would not be God.
The very reason we can know what you think is god is because he exists solely as a product of our imagination. We dreamt him up, so we can explain his reasoning - it is OUR reasoning. He hates the same things we hate, wow, what a surprise…
God could resolve all war and make people cooperate and get along. He could eradicate disease and horrible parasitic infestations that cause children tremendous pain and suffering. He could sort out famine in starvation hit parts of the world where people have to go days without food. But no. He prioritises telling you something about your neices and nephews that you didnt think you already know. Praise be to god indeed.
@@baboononskates If he cared no more about humans than other forms of life then I would agree with you. Doesnt the god of the bible supposedly value human life more than, say, a tuberculosis bacterium?
Thank you for steelmanning the atheist position. It's rare to hear it articulated in a way that doesn't try to shift the burden of proof. I feel the same way about perpetual motion machines. I would never say one doesn't exist. It would be awesome if it did! But as of yet, I haven't seen sufficient evidence. And to make matters worse, when evidence is presented, it always turns out to be a hoax.
I found the video disappointing since the only thing you covered was whether or not "it's not that we believe a negative, it's that we don't believe your claim because you've failed to make a convincing argument" is a logical philosophy. I'd think that'd be obvious. There is so much more to Hitchens views and you only covered an introductory statement...essentially defining terms before beginning the actual arguments.
Holy mackerel... Why not take 6 minutes just to state what Aethiests think?.... that they aren't convinced of any God being real, because of a lack of evidence.
This is the summary of the video, and it brings the (super old and over-argued) conversation NOWHERE. Good job. 👍
Yes spiritual people can only witness to their truth , everyone can and should know God but you have to knock on his door by praying and reading the Bible.
@@user-wy1dl2me2p Done all that and left even more convinced that there is no basis for belief. "Everyone should know god" is just giving everyone license to claim that some undetectable immaterial mind that exists outside of space and time shares their personal opinions.
There is no basis for any discussion until the term 'god' is defined. There are possible 'gods' whose existence can not be positively ruled out such as a classic deistic entity. This isn't to say that there is any compelling evidence for this god, just that it can't be considered impossible. The classic Christian 'tri-omni' god, however, can be considered non-existent as two of its defining characteristics, omniscience and omnipotence, lead to a wide variety of self-contradictions, both independently and in conjunction.
I don't think you really got into the meat of the issue. Hitchens has often said people can believe what they want on their own, just don't force it on me and my children. So I think you both agree on that point. But he's also saying: you might want some valid evidence for your beliefs. A god can't be logicked into existence, there must be evidence.
In other words, you might be able to make a valid logical point (conclusion follows the premises, whether the premises are actually true or not) about the existence of a god, but you must make a sound argument (requiring true premises) as well to be taken seriously.
As Christopher would say "claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"
What is evidence of a relationship? Who says you have met a stranger and is now a friend? You do.
@@user-wy1dl2me2p And if that 'stranger' is Elvis or a talking moose? You gonna just accept it as true?
I don't understand how me saying there is no god is overstepping but you telling me you know there is one and you somehow picked the right one is all cool.
I'm really not sure theists realize that atheism is a lack of belief not another religion, we don't have little meetings plotting to topple whichever god you follow, we just don't believe you.
It sounds like the Abrahamic position is that Human Beings on Planet Earth are the main point of the Universe, i.e., the Universe was made for us Human Beings via Jesus or Allah or whatever gods you grew up with…Yay Us! It’s astonishing that folks can be so emotionally needy and childish that any idea that contradicts this view makes the folks uncomfortable and/or seethe with anger. It’s so odd that this myopic, self-centered state of mind won’t allow people to understand or empathize with a non-theistic and non-self-serving position.
I find that St. Paul, not Jesus, is the infantilizing force in Christianity. Jesus spoke of doing good acts, which requires personal characteristics of maturity, dignity, benevolence and ability to share abundance. Jesus’s teachings are reviled in the Pauline world. Paul refers to his suckling infant flock, and supplants infantile love as “faith,” a feeling which is personal that no human can truly see in others. One cannot prove one’s genuine faith clearly, so only Pauline boasting is the method to show you are The Best Christian.
It makes for a beggarly person, a welfare Christian not able to do and act, just to feel one is full of grace, a splendid attitude which feeds no hungry, clothes no naked, comforts no prisoner, but just allows you the immobile bliss if the infant.
i have not been provided any evidence for a god
Do you have any evidence of a friend? How do you know unless you try to get close ? He will reveal himself if you try to connect with him. Try a local Bible church .
David’s Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God’s “Forgiveness” (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
Thus says the Lord: ‘I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives (!) while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.’
Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan answered David: “The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die.” [The child dies seven days later.]
This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!
Fortunately, most god definitions by the believers are of a nature whereby we all can rule-out that god.
Omnipotence, as a possible predicate for a god, renders that god nonexistent.
The problem is that omnip is it is paradoxical and self-refuting. It is trivial to name things which an omnip character could not do -- simply by virtue of the definition of omnip.
People naively try to REDEFINE omnip to be something (then) wholly different from omnip to SUCH a degree that every single thing is accordingly omnip (by the new definition).
So most christian gods cannot exist (since each person defines their god differently).
Absolutely. I made a similar point above. Omnipotence and omniscience both lead to self-contradictions. Omnibenevolence may not but it's even less in evidence than the first two attributes.
God cannot be found through science and reason, nor will you find evidence to prove God exists. You can only find God through His word. If you want to find something, you have to look where it can be found.
But where to find his word?
Not in the bible or other similarly dumb goodbooks.
@@peteralleyman1945 Then you will never find God.
Yes absolutely and once you find him he'll never leave you .
@@peteralleyman1945try praying, you can't talk unless you make a phone call .✝️
@@user-wy1dl2me2p Your boundaries are too narrow. You don't use a phone, you communicate through the Holy Spirit.
What is not understood by atheists is there are many people who don't "believe" in God but *experience* God, but not the God of the Abrahamic religions, which in their mass applications are rather primitive. The idea that the intellect, senses or logic is a part of self built to access higher order frequencies within self (aka "God") is a completely flawed assumption. It's like trying to demand FM on an AM radio. If I tell you of my hundreds, almost daily now, encounters with and immersion with that higher energy, the default atheist position is to deny and dismiss, partly because there is no foundation for credulity for such experiences or denial because to begin to open to the possibility leaves one with a good portion of identity unravelled. Sam Harris is interesting as a middle ground as he is starting to get it.
not quite. You are free to believe as you see fit based on reasons you find convincing, including whatever experiences your are referring to. As long as you don't expect other people to believe as you do, or to modify their behavior because of what you believe, I don't think an "atheist" has any problem with you, though they may not particularly enjoy your company.
@@ericb9804"I don't think an "atheist" has any problem with you," To be kind that is an etremely naive statement based on my extensive life experience with atheists in many venues. I'm not asking atheists to do anything. I actually believe atheism has great value in the world. more pehaps than you do yourself. And we could talk about that.
I am only pointing out that the demand of proof about God be met on ground of your choosing (it's your video-you posted it ) rather than some realization there may be other foundations that are as valid seems to be off limits.
I adore Carl Sagan but he just took every nook and cranny of the mystical and paranormal, shoved it in a closet and said, we just don't look at those things, nothing to see here.
What is interesting about him (among many great qualities) is he was quite intrigued by the Vedas as to cosmic time but he never followed up to explore their conclusion or descriptions of the nature of consciousness.
@@kenkaplan3654 I'm sorry for whatever negative experiences you have had with atheists. And I didn't make this video, but I get your point.
I don't speak for all atheists, but as pertains to "the mystical and paranormal," I don't think it quite that "other foundations are off limits," as much as the perception that those "other foundations" tend not to facilitate the same level of consensus building and problem solving that characterizes the sciences. Its much less clear what the utility of those "other foundations" are, which is not to say they are "off limits," only that its not surprising that they don't command the same level of attention.
I wish you had better experiences with atheists. As an "atheist," I don't begrudge you whatever specific beliefs and "foundations" you are referring to, provided you don't use those beliefs and foundations to make demands of me, which it seems you are not. Good luck to you.
Bottom line is still the same: You say you "experience God" but don't necessarily believe in a god, and yet you, like all believers, are unable to validate that experience with evidence. You've done nothing more than take an exit off the main god freeway to find your own experience in a town not on the map. I've done and continue to do the same thing, but I make no claims that I'm experiencing any type or god or supernatural entity.
@@markdomar4944 When you come up with something original beyond the usual parroting, or bring some actual openness or curiosity to the table, get back to me.
God has spoken to me on more than one occasion. I have seen Him work miracles in peoples lives. He has given my brother and I each prophetic dreams about the other one's children regarding things about which we had no foreknowledge. There is no logically defensible proofs because God is not understandable with our finite minds. If He were He would not be God.
The very reason we can know what you think is god is because he exists solely as a product of our imagination. We dreamt him up, so we can explain his reasoning - it is OUR reasoning. He hates the same things we hate, wow, what a surprise…
God could resolve all war and make people cooperate and get along. He could eradicate disease and horrible parasitic infestations that cause children tremendous pain and suffering. He could sort out famine in starvation hit parts of the world where people have to go days without food. But no. He prioritises telling you something about your neices and nephews that you didnt think you already know. Praise be to god indeed.
@@davegaskell7680why would a God eradicate the disease and parasitic infections he created ?
@@baboononskates If he cared no more about humans than other forms of life then I would agree with you. Doesnt the god of the bible supposedly value human life more than, say, a tuberculosis bacterium?
@@davegaskell7680 the God of the bible doesn’t exist.