I used to have my pic for my thumbnail. The hate I received from mostly males for expressing my opinion … one even said he hoped god would smite me from earth… well… I now use a pseudonym and just that initial. This is a problem that goes un-rebuked on social media. The hate is real and safely anonymous.
Its a widespread problem of CASUAL hateful and violent speech. People feel free to say the WORST things like it's no big deal at all. And are shocked if there are ever any consequences for what they said. Casual murder threats. Casual rape threats. Casual racism. What the hell happened to us? Better yet, how can we undo it?
As an FtM trans dude who passes relatively well (I pass as a cis dude) I can tell you how many times working in an all-male IT team, how many time I had to bite my lips, hearing the sick misogynist takes from coworkers (especially the conservative brown ones). The 💩 they’d say about women when they though they were amongst peers 😳 For my own safety/job security had to be quiet but ugh. Absolutely believe you! 🤦🏼♂️
@@jessehachey2732 Oh yeah.. the worst racist comments I ever heard were overheard because some white people assumed I was on their side. The weird thing about mysogyny is that mysognist men seem to assume all men are on their side. Its important to speak up. Bigots need to FEEL they are in a minority. I think they mistakenly believe "everyone thinks this even if no one says it." And NO. We do not.
When I was five one of my best friends was a girl, we would have 100% platonic sleepovers because we were five, but after a couple of years her mom made us stop being friends. Over the years I kept having many female friends and grew up well adjusted...her daughter fell in with a bad crowd and got knocked up and hooked on drugs before highschool. I wish her mom didn't force us to segregate, so I could have been a voice of reason. Parents forcing kids to segregate by sex is an issue too, this was pre-internet.
Is it? I wonder. I bet our social institutions have a much larger role to play, and are likely the cause of such fearful, ignorant, puritanical behavior
@@O1OO1O1 Institutions do play a roll in brainwashing individuals, but personal accountability must be considered. No institution made my former friend's mom tell us to stop being friends, if anything, her own personal history played a bigger factor. But yea, a lot of this goes back to issues of Church and State.
@@O1OO1O1 Well Puritanism can creep in the most unexpected places... five year olds can have sex drives, kid sex drives but sex drives nonetheless. Just saying nothing wrong with that.
my personal view that the "dating" culture, which is very American (although it is spreading) is what causes this. In Europe, most young all just hang out as friends, both sexes, then when there is attraction they break off into couples. But it is quite common to have a young man and woman out together as friends. Not saying Europe doesnt have its own problems with respect to this, but it is a very different dynamic.
As someone who escaped, I can say one of the primary ways these communities trap people is by destroying their mental health. It's like an abusive relationship, they tell you that your failings are your fault and you should feel bad, but we're the only community that will accept you, will you really crawl out to get stomped by those who we tell you will hate you? It really is horrible, and creates a situation where it's hard to eacape
You should be incredibly proud of yourself. Misery loves company and being able to break free of toxic communities and thought patterns is a massive feat.
And you're an incompetent who's decided to befriend in a community which was full of volatile suicidal ugly idiots that despite establishing really incredibly useful foundation of information, you are not going to make the conclusions for your own life's situation and join the most degenerate user's lifestyle because they can't really do anything with it. *Or maybe you should admit you're making this story up.* Either which way, you don't simply start thinking like that unless you had experienced it, that society is like actually on a perpetual attempt to ruin your life. Maybe they do but it's within the flow of the modern-system natures and not a direct conscious process on their part. Maybe being that ugly, neurodivergent or lacking social prestige really sucks as a male and you hadn't initially established a good self-esteem + in a social group before falling victim to public degradation where it's really hard to escape the pipeline of helplessness.
That is terrible, I’m really glad you escaped! I also think that’s why it’s so important for people to understand how men get into these groups, and to be sympathetic and empathetic to their struggles, as opposed to attacking them. Because when we attack them, that just reaffirms that message… The whole world is against you, we’re the only ones that will accept you… Thank you for sharing!
I actually stumbled upon this while working as a janitor here in Tallahassee and listing to it today (5/3/2023). I spent the following night working and going over in my head what to say. Here it is: I can't speak about Incels since I'm not part of that group nor do I want to be, but I will say this about the subject. As someone with autism, we are not taught the nuances of love, sex, and relationships because autistic men (and women) are often seen as too weird, socially aloof, or undeserving of women. I suffered this back when I was young. Being a black person on the spectrum in a black family was a hard and painful experience. My father and brother constantly belittled and tormented me for not conforming black and/or male stereotypes. (i.e., listing to rap and playing sports) At this time, my mom had died, and I was being raised by my dad. The torment followed me into high school as I had a staff member call me "a retard with no friends/social life" With the family element absent and lack or peers my age, and with the onset of puberty, my knowledge of romance and love was somewhat primal. Society seems to think the road to romance is easy but in reality, it's anything but. I think a lot of men see this "simplistic" form of romance as reality but then find out this isn't so; they seem to blame women and broader society. Life is strange and not everyone can and will find romance, that's just how life is-unfortunately. The problem of incels dovetails into to our loneliness epidemic in our country in which people for all genders are dealing with loneliness. Of course, someone will say, "go on dates" and/or "put yourself out there" but what if there are no places where you can hang out with lightminded people? What if you have a late-night job where you can't meet people? Also, some jobs are so demeaning that all you want to do is just come home and relax. This is a very complicated situation, but I know one thing: Misogyny and bigotry in all its forms is totally UNACCEPTABLE!!! Women don't owe me nor anyone else ANYTHING! PERIOD!
I was doomed to crappy relationships my whole life because of where I lived.... I finally had enough and moved to a liberal city so I could meet people with values and ideas like mine, and now I have a wonderful husband and amazing friends. If I had stayed in Mississippi I would still be lonely and miserable. I guess it's a form of "social migration." I know full well it's a Big Damn Deal to pick up and move, but if you're able, it might be a life-altering change. I wish you ALL the good things ✨️ 🙏
Thank you so very much for sharing your incredible insight!! It is so incredibly depressing to realize that who we meet in our daily lives are not anything like they seem. I have 2 sons & 2 daughters, all grown now, but I fear for my grandchildren & future generations & often feel so overwhelmed!! You are a walking, breathing survivor of this ever growing cult of hate & the dehumanizing of people. I want to hear more from people who have narrowly escaped this contagion of hate & evil. God Bless you for sharing this & I am so sorry that you were so hurt in your past by the bullies & haters!! We can help others by telling our own stories!🙏🏻🦋🥰
Nobody is trying to fix the root problems we have in this country. Everyone is stuck focusing on making enough money so that the problems don't apply to them anymore.
The toughest part of that is that financial stability is pretty important if you are wanting to facilitate change. People aren’t going to strike if they can’t feed their families for example, even if they arguably should.
Capitalism is the root problem.. and we have a country of people who grew up under red scare messaging unable to critically think about our financial system because of hyper individualism and the myth of meritocracy.. to fix the issue we have to start engaging with ideas that are practically forbidden because they sound socialist. To fix the root issue you have to recognize the American dream myth was never based in truth
@@anonplussedhuman2615 a system that goes bad if it’s not constantly beat back from doing what it naturally does isn’t a good system.. the point of a system is to create one that can run on auto pilot without grinding up hundreds of thousands of its subjects with death and despair and abject poverty and practical slavery. A system that feeds on the weakest most vulnerable people is a shit system. What you meant to say is capitalism as a system isn’t bad at all for you.. stating that you don’t have the worst position in a system isn’t stating how good that system is. You are just saying that capitalism has an acceptable level of carnage you don’t mind ignoring because it isn’t happening to you.
I think a worthwhile follow-up would be to interview "online" women in their 20s and early 30s about growing up in this environment. I'm also a millennial but younger than Jon (born '91) and was VERY deep into internet subculture from a young age. I was on 4chan in middle school (about 12 years old, when the website was first launched in 2003), digg, reddit... it was a wild ride. If you were a girl in these spaces in the 00s, there was a lot of pressure to prove that you were cool, that you weren't a "typical girl", that you loved gaming and internet culture and were sexually open and liberated (but not a "slut"), and it was a very confusing and frustrating line for a teenager to walk. I'm now 31 and looking back on my adolescence on the internet, I can't even imagine how much worse it would have been if my name and face had been attached all that time (since that was still the era where we were all taught to never give out our name or identifying information online).
I just wanted to say I had a very, very similar experience to yours growing up ('92!) online and being in those same spaces as a girl. It especially hit me hard with the discussion on this podcast about how "jokes" in these spaces just work to desensitize you to an incredibly damaging degree until you're vulnerable to extremism and too jaded to see the reality of what's going on. You're not alone!!
I'm from the Netherlands. I will post a video of what children (I looked it up, this specific show is for 10 to 12 year old) airing on SchoolTV but also on a public network aimed at children. In the example they are told what condoms are, how to NOT open them (nails/scisscors), how to put it on, how to safely dispose off it. But they also tell that the children watching this right now, doesn't mean they are even ready for that yet but one day they will and then it's good to know. In the US this would be classified as grooming right now, on the other hand it's 'just' some 25-30 percent really into all this gender, abortion, sexism etc topics. Aside from learning about condoms, they learn the consquences of sending a nude photo to (what they might think, or even when it would be a boyfriend) that you can't trust people you don't know telling they are who they are online, which they do understand already, but sending a nude pic to a boyfriend and later gets posted all over school or whatever because she broke up. Long story short (not really sober now, sorry) we have one of the lowest (for many years THE lowest) abortion rate . This while abortion is legal here. We also have one of the lowest numbers of teen parents/moms. But with those conservatives in the US you have to fight two battles...they also don't want children to be sexually informed.
John, I think this is your best and most necessary discussion yet because this topic undegirds so many of the challenges we face as Americans and global citizens. Misogyny is a prominent vein that runs throughout all of society .
I agree. But I would expand this thought. Misogyny is the one thread that weaves throughout history, cultures and geography. Are there any areas in the world where women are not oppressed, suppressed or fighting the glass ceiling?
@@LCamp-cr7fs Hi L. Camp, thanks for your comment. Misogyny is one of several concepts that have an enduring presence throughout time and place. I mention misogyny because that was the premise of this episode of offline.
@@viekent I am in my seventies. That is old enough to remember that women didn’t wear pants in the workplace, didn’t get a prescription for the pill if unmarried, didn’t get scholarships for many sports, were offered secretarial positions with an MBA, couldn’t get a savings account, mortgage or credit card, etc. I realize that we have come a long way (baby) toward equality. But we seem to be moving backward again. I have to remind you that equality has not been codified, that affirmative action has been weakened, and that public misogyny raises its ugly head. That is just the US, a first world country. It’s so much worse in many other parts of the world.
Only one Party is proud of segregation; 'war on women' 'war on color' in southern states since 2000 Tea Party days. Property ownership just one example.
My moms a teacher(1st grade on a k-4 campus) and I remember before I even knew who Andrew Tate was she came how and said “the kids are all talking about orange Bugattis” and she asked what the joke was. My younger brother said it was the weird UA-cam guy. And we all know what the guys deal is now so it’s scary that really young kids were watching Tate and talking about him
Thank you for bringing this out, John. As a 60 year old woman, I have known these guys existed but no one wants to talk about it. Or if we do we’re just labeled as man- haters and disregarded. I love and respect (many) men bc I know most are not like this, nor would condone this behavior and beliefs
I think this cluster of themes has been around a long, long time. I saw it in 1960’s era pulp Science Fiction. The internet attracts men, and so does Sci-fi.
I think it's important to explain what is meant by feminism. It is simply equal rights for women. I think many, if not most, men would agree with this but don't identify as feminists. They wrongly think of feminism as women superiority which certainly exists but that's a whole other thing
What in the hell..... I feel ill. That was really hard to listen to. Thank you for researching this and shining a light on this kind of thing. It's important that people are aware that this kind of thing exists so that we can be aware of the warning signs.
Check out the number of followers people like Jordan Peterson, Charlie Kirk and Ben Shapiro have online. Marjorie Taylor Green gets all dressed up when she talks to them, very provocative.
I'm a 63-yr-old straight white male who welcomed the "Women's Liberation" movement and naively believed that men would have evolved out of sexist and misogynistic attitudes by now. Many of us did-- but I didn't see this horrible backlash coming. I also didn't predict the resurgence in racism, xenophobia, and trans/homophobia. What's especially disturbing and disgusting is the recruitment of young men and boys. We must call out this garbage when we see it-- and make it clear that life will be better and happier for these perpetrators when they abandon hateful attitudes.
Let’s call it what it is: grooming. They’re literally grooming young boys and men into these loosely defined communities. Also, I think this idea that progress is a natural linear progression needs to be smashed into pieces. With my early education, it was presented that way to me too…until I got to university and really learned and discussed more about American politics and the unsanitized version of it. You start to break things apart critically, investigate and ask questions. What’s really sad is how these communities intentionally foster this circular logic that creates this bubble and it’s cult-like. I see the same thing with a number of religious communities (definitely all the fundamentalist ones)
Individual growth is almost always much faster than cultural growth. Cultural growth requires that lots of people make the same inner changes at the same time, and the odds are against it. Crisis can speed things up, or put people in shock & make them backtrack. Take heart, folks. Despite the incels' backlash against feminism, gen Z threw out the GOP in the midterms, sufficiently to give us a democratic majority in the Senate, specifically in regards to the abolishment of abortion rights. Incels are loud so we notice them, but gen Z, by and large is feminist, & the last elections show this.
@@coachingbydaisy-cf9yr Sure. But not everyone concerned about men's rights, men's mental health, etc is a misogynist. There are misogynists in the group, but there are also misandrists within feminism.
Other youtube channel says that 25 percent of men are sexually abused or experienced something like that at some point (mostly by men) or in childhood. So the Mee Too movement is not just about women. Lewis Hoves said he was abused in childhood and hundreds of men wrote to him that they also experienced it. So Feminists is also on the side of men.
Actually, men avoiding a one to one meeting with a woman in the workplace is *_not_* an unreasonable position. It may seem extreme, but *_better safe than called in to HR._*
What a great discussion!!! I took a lot of flack when my duaghter was in kindergarten. A boy in her class was constantly chasing her trying to kiss her. She didn't want or like his approach. I told her DON'T run. Tell him that's nice that he appreciates her but i don't like being chased. (in in 5/6 year old terms). Several other parents (moms interestingly) said "the kids are just learning to be boys and girls" To me this was an odd arguement. I was just trying to teach her to be a good human above all else, respect others the way you want to be respected. I remained undeterred.
@@nancyhayes1836Good on you for teaching boundaries while also teaching compassion and respect of others. I don't get the other mom's take on it, at all.
I wish more parents were like you. My grands wanted to play school the other day. So they taught their classes on kindness. The 4.5 year old was presenting "case studies" and asking "is that nice? " it was adorable! When she said that one kid hugged another kid and asked "was that nice? " I responded (I think) differently than she expected. I said "it depends. If he wanted a hug, yes. If he didn't, then no." And recalled a time when she didn't want to hug me and I was OK with it. I think it's important to teach children boundaries - how to set them and how to respect others'. And that they have bodily autonomy. (Obviously with children, that are times you may have to touch them in the course of their care even if they don't want to be touched, but plenty of times they should be able to decline offers of touch - hugs, kisses, etc. if they want.) Changing entrenched culture is difficult and takes a very long time. Thanks for being on the forefront!
This was a great podcast. I remember being horrified when a cop kidnapped a women in London during Covid, drove her to a remote area r***d and m*****d her. He was arrested almost immediately and incels came out in droves to support this creep, saying things like she was too old and not pretty enough for this guy to throw away his life on. As if a younger victim would have made his crime more “worthwhile”. It was so inhuman and depraved. I’m glad I’m no longer dating, I wouldn’t feel safe at all putting myself out there.
Yes, I remember the news story. It was horrifying. And then not too long agon, another coip was arrested (thank god) in London (?) ... or somewhere in England for raping women.
thats a shitty story , and I think explains some of the reasons that I can't stand dating apps (as a 38 year old dude who doesn't subscribe to any of that incel crap) - in fact I don't think anyone likes them, but sees them as the only option because people are so withdrawn from healthy social interaction. The smartphone is like a nuclear bomb of bad information when given to people who don't appreciate the effect on humanity it can have. I actually stopped dating because of a relationship I had where the girl was highly manipulative, and then covid happened and since we have tried to re-normalize again, it's been extremely hard to rebuild any kind of social network irl that may have once previously existed. I unfortunately chose a career in tech because I thought I'd be good at it, before I became aware of what social media was doing to us as a culture. I don't use any of the big platforms, I always prefer real life organic interaction to algorithmically planned matchmaking, and I'm pretty jaded at the state of social affairs. It almost feels like a catch 22, I'd love to join some kind of anti-tech pro-social movement, but to organize it tech is pretty much necessary or else no one will hear it. When I was going back to school during the covid times , I went down a few rabbit holes of social media disinformation and what was causing it, mainly because I couldn't believe that people had bought into trumpism. I ignored the dude completely for 3.5 years till he threatened to shoot protesters after the Floyd murder, and then when I got a call from ym dad in florida, he seemed to know nothing about that but all about "Obama gate" - that's what brought me here today, disinformation and interest in how tech is destroying the things that make life worth living, without making too much noise about it. What made me post this is that you said you've stopped dating because of the internet, which I don't blame you for and am sympathetic to. It's just another data point in what is many data points I've noted in the crumbling fabric of 'western society' for lack of a better word. I refrain from hyperbole but none of this is surprising to me, it seems like the natural consequence of "democratizing" information in such a widespread and easy to manipulate way. I don't know what the solution is but my gut tells me it's the biggest problem we face as social creatures.
Excellent episode. It really needs to be addressed as a society. About the Twitter debacle I'm reminded of what I thought long ago as I watched the GOP cave to the Tea Party and later completely devolve into the Trump cult----the problem with pandering to extremists is you run out of pander long before they run out of extreme.
It goes way further back. To my knowledge, the Regan Administration is what solidified the “religious right.” There has been a RABID fervor against civil rights since before they were even introduced.
The most incredible thing is that extremists hook men (especially, not only) by their myth of masculinity but it's all very vague in their ideology. How long does it take for an average IQ person to realize that they are not even gaining anything by devolving to the cult of an extremist? How long does it take to realize that you're serving an agenda but that agenda is not even serving you?
I'm right and I'd say the same about the left. In general, media takes extreme examples to get us passionate to vote these people in office. The right thing to do is stop blaming parties ans realize it's a bigger issue.
You assume that will help him in society? Curious. Why? Most people your age--not all, but most--grew up in a very different, much easier society where finding work was easy (multiple job offers), buying a house was possible, and women had values. Or at least, more values. Society doesn't value well rounded people. It values exploiters and people who will walk over others to get ahead. And hyper specialisation. Which is only possible through mass exploitation.
@@O1OO1O1 What a small, scary view of the world you have. And it's very wrong. Let's go point by point: The economic reality of older generations does not change the need for kindness and understanding. Indeed, every Era has valued kindness, and Grannies have been revered for their wisdom since before writing was invented. Only a fool ignores his Grandma. Society does value well rounded people, and in fact many professions emphasize broad learning as well as specific areas of expertise. Among these are doctors and nurses, teachers, mental health professionals, marketers and advertisers, artists and musicians, industrial designers, content creators, financial advisors, community outreach professionals, and a lot more. As well as these professions our society has several areas of academic study which specifically emphasize broad learning, like sociology, childhood development, history, and environmental biology. Modern American society collects power with wealth, and that does come from exploitation for the most part. But I would argue that the people who hold power are far removed from the rest of us, and so who we value in our daily life is different than what large scales look like. Personally, I value the kindness of my local shop keeper, and the guy who delivers the packages always has a joke. I value the insight and support of my friends and family. Society is made up of people by definition, and I think what people value is much more personal that your statement allows for. Hyper specialization is a product of the world being complicated, and there's no other way to get things done. It takes about 10 years or 10,000 hours to become an expert in something, and there are SO many complicated things in the world. Did you know there are like 20 different kinds of mortar to use when building? And that if you use the wrong kind, your building will collapse? That's just sand and water, basically, and even that requires expert experience. Imagine how complicated the human body is, or how to transfer a signal from the ground to space and back, or how to make an air conditioner. The world is complicated and super specific, and expertise is how we made the advancements we have today. I think your view of the world is too tech based and you're only looking at that side of our society. Remember, most people don't care about Twitter, and society is not accurately reflected anywhere online. You can only learn so much about people and who they are and what they care about from behind a screen.
@@O1OO1O1 And the biggest flaw in your statement, women had more values in the past? That is indicative of several biases you hold and a deep misunderstanding of women's history. Tell me, is it a moral stance to do something under threat of violence? If you are told shoveling horse manure is a good and noble thing, and if you don't do it you will be beaten, does shoveling manure mean you have the right values? You ignore the reality millions of women still face around the world, which is that for most of history women were consisted property. In America, women couldn't open their own credit card until 1978, and weren't included in medical studies until 1994. So, are you advocating for sexual slavery? Is that the kind of values you wish were still present? Or, maybe that's too harsh for you and you'd rather women just bear abuse and financial servitude in silence? I wonder what YOUR Granny thinks of that, and what she has suffered in silence. Maybe you should ask her and really try to listen to what she says. Remember, only a fool ignores his Granny.
Jon, this is one of the best segments I've watched. Laura is brilliant. As a mom of 22 yr old male/female twins and a 14 yr old female, I can see a radical difference those 8 years make. I am thrilled to have parented a son and 2 daughters who are everything I'd want others to find in a meaningful relationship.
We like to think of these men as incels, which comes from involuntary celibate; however some of these men are husbands and fathers. Men may not understand how women fear these men because we have or had them in our lives or we have watched friends suffer. Thank you for this conversation.
@@GGoAwayy Why is it always the weak men standing up for females? You hear this from men at work because bitxhes ain't shit. This is normal behavior from most men unless you're gay and paint your nails.
Agreed. It undergirds so much about our human need for connection and belonging, and our dangerous propensity for destruction when our feelings get hurt. Wars have been fought because of tender egos like this.
i posted something similar, but a little broader scoped. It's about power and control in general, and while this podcast is great, they have blind spots even to their own social media addictions. They seem surprised that they got rid of the blue chcks and people are still mad, because it was never about the blue check marks in the first place. It's just another increment in the attempt to shift power dynamics.
I'm glad that she ID'd that there are often successful people, like Republican politicians who push horrifying misogyny. It's not always the guy living in his mother's basement and unemployed.
I thought that was actually disingenuous to conflate the two. She said they spoke at the event, they were there to get political support, whether they like them personally or not. It's a power grab, and the people who are there have real issues that are misconstrued or gaslit, and you end up with a hate movement/movements. She says they're different groups later on, but it was ineffective at best to make that claim without the nuance later provided.
I'm grateful that exposing these issues is gaining traction. For further study, F.D Signifier has illuminating deep dives on edgelords, the manosphere and the black manosphere on UA-cam.
I SO MUCH enjoy Pod Save America - each and every podcast is informative, funny, and helps me understand the world better. Keep it up, guys! I would say that in my professional life, all of my advisors and counselors were women, except my grad program advisor who was a man, but it was women who helped me think out my life, and I had a really productive one. I guess it all started when my mom, as a schoolteacher, came home one day complaining that the coach at the parochial school where she was a lay teacher got a big fat raise, and when she asked, was told "He's supporting a family." I was eight at the time, and wondered from that point why women were paid less. Never understood it, but fortunately all of my jobs were all union jobs in unions where everyone was paid the same. Women have been such a boon in my life, and I'm a gay guy. I always saw women as equals.
One of my colleague's father died of flu in the 30s and her mother had to support the family as a college teacher. She was cut first when there were staff reductions because "the men need the jobs to support their families." It never changes.
What about all the vulnerable boys and men who are exploited? Do you gaf about them? You are literally perpetuating sexism. The world is NOT SAFE FOR POOR AND MARGINALIZED PEOPLE. regardless of gender.
I am likely an outlier, but being from GenX, I do fully understand the fact that the digital world IS the world for young people today, in part because it has largely become the world for many people I know my age. Any time I see a younger person repeat something toxic they saw on TikTok, I'm quick to seek conversation about it and see if I can get them to re-examine these things they're seeing all day. I'm still hopeful about GenZ/Alpha
gen y here. you know, one of those pesky boat rockers. lol. the think tanks have dispatched boatloads of "mra" shills and trolls and bots. they made sure to make plenty of them "our age" so that we a) look bad, and b) would listen to them. NOT WORKING. and the ruling bloodlines seem to hate us most of all for that. :D
I guarantee most of us "incels come from single mother homes... no dad's... so don't blame mysoginy my mother chose mysoginy for father of her child me... she chose to be used as a "cumbucket" and decided to keep the baby of the boy that treated her like this... abortion was an option but she wanted this boys baby so much... she had no respect for herself or for her child... she deprived me of a father... she a disgusting little rat... she raised me to be feminine which in turn has made women only like me for one reason and that's because I'm a doormat... rage!!!! she raised her child to be a failure out of misplaced animosity towards me when it should have been directed at my father... as a result I have deemed her not my mother she just a cumslag and she will be deprived of her firstborn child... and I will end this piss poor mix of DNA for betterment of humanity... her retarded choice shall not go on in the human populous it makes me feel good to know this is why I am here... to end the cycle of suffering.
Laura did linguistic analysis which is almost certainly not the best way to study the group, because they make a lot of gallows humor. Richard Reeves has some really great videos on Big Think that imo cover the topic in a more wholistic and less pessimistic way, and doesn't focus on the most extreme fringes of the larger issues causing the problems. Because a lot of people don't understand the purpose of the first video titled Male Inequality Explained by an Expert, he starts by talking about solutions, and ends with the issue he wants to address, which is the mental health crisis in boys/men.
She lumps Men's Rights Activists into the same category as incels. She doesn't know what she's talking about. Males have the freedom to advocate for themselves without being called incels. Don't believe everything she says.
@ASMRyouVEGANyet so your solution is what? Criminalize the idea? Thought crimes, for the good of the people. A tool that can never easily be misused, and is always effective for counter-culture suppression. 10/10, therapy is not the solution, the cops are.
@ASMRyouVEGANyet or are you suggesting the limp wrist of social shame to de-radicalize counter-cultuer? Lmao, government therapy is the fastest solution to deradicalization. It is for all cults, and incels (self ID 'members') are a cult.
I have both of Laura's books. They ought to be required reading for men of any age. I felt outraged and angry that men and women are treated so differently - not only in the workplace, but by our own police and judicial system. They made me reflect on a lot of my own past behaviour too.
Reading that bullsht is cu/cked. If a man had wrote it about women, it would be hate speech, equality applies. The only good place for her books is on the campfire.
Gosh. I knew some of this but what is described here really made me feel sick and very worried for young people (and older ones too tbh). So important to make this issue much more known and visible, and to preemptively explain to younger boys what they are going to encounter online and to call it out as very dangerous and damaging lies. 😢
Wow. This was really hard to hear, but it’s so important to take this seriously. Her point about a generation of non-digital natives raising digital natives hit hard. As a boomer, I find myself reflecting on this often. I am a typewriter native 😳😳 so this was a challenge for me as my grandkids were growing up… but I’m trying!Great interview as always. Loved the discussion about the dominion case, too. I am trying to keep in mind that this was dominion’s case, not mine. So they got the outcome that was right for them. 🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️ Thank you all for what you do. This is one of my favorite places to get information but you also help to calm me down. 🥰🥰✌️✌️🌟🌟
Every once in awhile I glance into these rabbit holes and feel too nauseous to keep going. She has a lot of fortitude. I met one guy on a discord server who wanted to kill himself. He was dancing on the edge of incel ideology, though he refused to see it. The only significant woman in his life was his sister, who raped him. He’d never known a woman who wasn’t a failed romantic endeavor, an unstable authority figure, or a rapist. I was determined to drag him away from the path he was on. He said hurtful things to me. He constantly accused me of hating him or abandoning him, but I never left. He needed to see that women could be a stable fixture in his life, even unromantically. He did eventually admit that he was surprised how long I stood by him. I think I helped him through a terrible period in his life. He eventually was able to find a safe living environment. He mostly only contacted me when he was in a bad place, so I hope him eventually no longer reaching out was a good sign. Maybe I failed and he did eventually fall down the rabbit hole. But I think I at least gave him a chance to avoid it.
As a gay man I dont see these attitudes among other gay men I become friends with... but almost EVERY straight man I become friends with at some point shares some view with me that makes me wonder what parts of the internet they hang around in where they absorb these sorts of messages. All I can do is be a voice of reason, but its a fine balancing act to do that while not just making them decide to stop sharing with you.
The dynamics of gay relationships aren’t comparable to straight ones. 100% of gay males can find a partner regardless of their looks while only 10% of straight males meet the visual standards of women. Gay couples have equal responsibilities while in straight couples 100% of the responsibilities are on the male. Gay males all face the same situation in life while men live nightmarish lives and women live lives of blissful luxury
Last I remembered, the manosphere goes into detail of how queer people prove them right, i.e. gay men aren't sexually enslaved to or attached to women, so they can be as redpilled as possible. Similarly, the statements of transpeople MTF and FTM themselves have recognized the biological aspects behind gender roles.
Misogyny goes hand in hand with homophobia so it isn't surprising that you and your friends aren't like this. On the Daily Show, they had a man discuss his book that I believe was called 'The Man Box', and it talked a lot about those correlations. Thank you for being a good person. We don't need more bigotry in the world.
I don't know whether it's more important to thank Laura Bates for her important work, or apologize that she had to do that. Great interview. Thanks Jon.
Jon, I love all things Crooked Media. And this episode of Offline is so important. I want to note that I’m 17 minutes in and am in tears. I have no say, but I think it’d be a good idea to put a warning at the beginning of the video, saying that the episode discusses r**pe, m**der, etc. But, truly, thank you for doing this! I hope it helps a LOT of people! 😊
@@TheEmbrio No they don't. (everything sent my way to prove that was literally motivated nonsense people - one guy, iirc, with obvious hate for and lack of understanding of TW conducted. I think there wasn't even with people with ptsd included, or some such bs.)
Thank you so much for this research and analysis! Laura is a true hero! I am a feminist single mother and have raised my son with strong female friendships, all toys (so he played with dolls, kitchens, trains, etc.), consent education, etc. but now that he is a young teen and has a smart phone, he has become intrigued by porn and Andrew Tate and finds ways around all the parental controls. In some ways, it is his rebellion. I so appreciate the advice here but one issue not addressed is that parents are being denied their right to protect their children both from the toxicity and misinformation online and the physiological effects of screens (dopamine addiction, corrupted brain development expanding amygdalae and interfering with capacities for memory & concentration). When screens are required for both homework and social life, and this produces both academic degradation (ChatGPT etc.) and unhealthy teen culture, why isn't there a large movement demanding screen-free childhoods and schools? Or at least separate devices (flip phones) and a separate internet for children with no ability to access adult content? Why are we supposed to just accept the capitalist-driven tech culture as a fait accompli?
The level of control and monitoring you’re proposing to enforce the society you laid out would require government surveillance the likes of which the CCP could only dream of. Humans are not built for the internet because the internet has redefined humanity. The world is a radically different place than even 10 years ago, do we want to implement draconian technology laws to stifle kids ability to learn on how to interact with what will likely be an integral part of their lives. Parents can only try to inform and emphasize the importance of the real world. Seeing beautiful land marks, appreciating a sunset, look for the happy little moments as the man with the best white afro would say. The problem is the internet is really good at giving just enough of the little moment to make your brain think that it just did something good.
Addiction, I suspect. Watching John and Co. defend Tok-Tok, a _toy_ connected to a competitive if not outright hostile foreign power, is a bit gobsmacking. It's just a toy, an entertainment device. It's not even unique, just very efficient. So why can't we go screenless? IMO because we're addicted. Life sucks. Plug in and check out. Also self-segregation. I want to talk to people like myself and can do it on demand. What's my immediate incentive to not do that and instead go loiter with my neighbors and reveal how little I care about local sports? I'd rather go to r/EldenRing and get excited about the latest Dex/Faith build or lore dump. Sure my community erodes but in the right now the difference in experience is enormous. We're humans. We want to be with people like ourselves but need people who are different. It's a terrible paradox.
Here here!! I've been thinking about exactly these points for a few years. We have to accept capitalist-driven tech culture because we haven't organized enough to push safety regulations. In the name of free speech, which has been a catch-all excuse for profitable manipulation.
Regardless of what you teach boys, boys will eventually grow up. It's inevitable. You either learn to live with the devil, or . . . learn to be in conflict with it. As they say, boys will be boys. One of the things I used to do as a kid was go looking around for spiders . . . Sometimes I would blow them, poke them with a stick or just step on them for fun. Sometimes people would say, "why don't you just leave them alone? If you leave them alone, they won't bother you." Boys/men, are a bit like those spiders I used to attack and harrass. Some spiders are poisonous and can kill you with their venom. Most, however, will leave you alone if you leave them alone.
I like her emphasis on having empathy. Separating the lost causes from the victims. Still there is a lot of misandry online which reinforces the views sold by incels... that men are being treated as second class citizens in many way. A young 16 year old boy questioned why is he the villain nowadays for being white and male. People who complain about misogyny and don't care about humor that is violent towards men or that disregard men's suffering should understand they are feeding the problem in a way.
look at every news article. every talking point. even her response in this video. it all comes from white supremacy and white privilege. thats the problem the answer to all problems these days. the white male is literally used as the bogeyman in everything today. and if your that, then you are the problem. and now they have it as unconscious biased and racism so your bad even if you want to do good. how are young males supposed to feel? they are literally gaslighting males who complain they are unfairly being grouped.
I can acknowledge that there are a lot of miserable white men, but their "suffering" is dwarfed by the people who are really oppressed; I don't think they are true victims. But white men don't become the villains because of external oppression, but because of their own choices in response to a gender polarized world. There are a lot more white male allies to oppressed groups who don't need everything to be all about themselves and their own pain, they deal with their own pain by working against suffering of all kinds, rather than thinking that they are the most oppressed group and are justified in creating suffering for others, specifically women whom they blame for all of their problems. The incel mindset is a kind of arrested juvenile set of behaviors which is a choice to be in a pack of juvenile male predators who justify their actions based upon their hurt feelings rather than to grow up and become a contributing member of society and able to put the needs of others first as good mates and parents of both sexes need to learn to do. People who want to end misogyny aren't by definition into misandry, rather they want an end to both and want a society that embraces everyone and encourages everyone to learn to be caring to everyone else. You don't learn to become a grownup contributing member of society by focusing on your own suffering, but by helping to make the world a better place for others.
This is one of the most important conversations on Offline yet. Please continue exploring this thread. The violent rhetoric and real life consequences are so terrifying for women, femmes, nb folks, etc. Also terrifying that young boys are being targeted, and girls are being harmed. As Laura points out, the intersection with white supremacy is a critical point. There's so much to wrestle with here, and having men like you take on these conversations is necessary.
Being Dutch myself, having legal prostitution available helps too. Also against sexual assaults and more benefits, like taxes or them being tested frequently for STDs. People are human beings and some can't cope with not being able to 'do it', maybe some of them will get out of their circle that way.
These men are growing in number for a reason, and that reason isn't recruitment and marketing. These men are seeing the world they are in and trying to cope and enjoy themselves. Their communities don't realt concern you or I. Our input isn't important to them and you can't arrest all of them.
There are mostly people from all around the world in these communities, not just white, I can’t believe she thought this all this time. The average user in these communities are middle eastern men…
Such a great conversation. Watching the rise of andrew tate and other manosphere creators go viral has been extremely concerning bc initially the content seems largely benign and so quickly it turns to physical violence against women. Also, seeing how younger and younger boys are getting pulled in under the guise of being an 'alpha male' makes me extremely nervous
Andrew Tate is not an 'incel' he's just some petty criminal that runs or ran a webcam sex worker business and grew rich as a result. The 'incels' are the sad blokes paying for his web cam girls. It's also a very sad state of affairs that this pimp is seen as some paragon of manhood.
There was a Long Story Short segment on the Daily Show as well that acts as an interesting supplement to this, especially in regards to the male role model aspect of this. Replacing someone like Tate with someone who is a better role model that shows how you should respect others in general.
I've noticed that when I Google a subject, I get accurate Healthcare information, perhaps because I'm a Healthcare Professional. When my roommate who has visited sites with alternative medicine, is directed to Conspiracy sites with misinformation. The algorithms affects all areas of the internet.
Algorithms don’t do anything beyond recommend content similar to content you already viewed and engaged with. This seems to more accurately describe the reason the world online seems to be hurdling toward the far right and far left parts of the internet. There’s not really a good way to get rid of them.
That was such a good interview- she extremely eloquent and balanced in her explanations. Would like to comment that there is a big negative influence some mothers behavior may have had on these boys/ young men.
Thank you for this! I am finding more and more women in my practice who struggle with their male partners' espousing male influencers like Tate and Crowder. I would love to learn more about how to help them recognize what is being done to them and tools to prevent the kind of carnage I'm seeing. Women do not require a huge online presence to be utterly road-killed. I'm starting with Ms. Bates books for a good foundation.
Stephen Crowder? He’s just a conservative comedian of sorts - he isn’t fueling the incel movement. If anything, he is guiding men out of it. Jordan Peterson is as well
Had a friend go down this rabbit hole - wealthy, bright, educated, conventionally attractive, well-read, excellent career, etc: not at all what you would expect an incel to look like. But his fiance cheated on him and left him, which led to depression, which led to loss of self-confidence and not shaving, and so forth. Now he feels less and less attractive, etc. He reaches a point where he's not looking for anyone new, and then starts simping for an egirl streamer and replaces a real relationship with this paid one. Obviously that's going nowhere, and when it peters out, he's distraught that nobody is new is finding him - that his life has taken a years-long detour off course from his original fiance. He should have kids by now, etc. Enter the pipeline not only to incel extremism, but white supremacy, via pick-up artists & bodybuilding - and they both have all the answers to his problems. It only ended because eventually a nice girl flirted with him at the gym - and nearly overnight all the bullshit he built up in his head vanished. The biggest thing by far, is human contact - they need to interact with others on a regular basis - they need to talk to people about their feelings (depression/loneliness/societal pressure on them/etc) - ultimately it's toxic masculinities aversion to discussing basic human emotions that allows these negative emotions to spiral beyond recognizability into destructive beliefs (destructive to themselves and others). And when you hear them say things that aren't true - are deeply cynical - are dangerously approaching the slippery slope - you need to speak up and slap them out of it. It's never a joke with them, it's testing the waters and searching for truth - and if the joke goes unchallenged - then it must be true. I didn't do enough of any of this at the time, it only began to make sense when I could see in retrospect that it was possible to help him. It's a slippery slope but a helping hand can stop their descent if it's offered at the right time.
@@Sarah-re7cg reread my comment and listen through again. Her suggestions are silly. All they do is tie incrl nto what they hate politically. Insincere way they talk to you.
@@theragoooverlord5021 oh okay I understand what you’re saying now. When you said it can’t be debunked, I thought you were implying that their (incels) reasoning was sound. Yeah, it’s circular, it’s like a cult. You can’t “debunk” people who are married to an idea despite the contrary. The solution has to do with deradicalization and prevention. The form of deradicalization depends on how radicalized the individual in question is.
Wait til you hear how many women and POC have been shut out of management altogether since the beginning of time. And in modern times "good men" aren't being passed over in favor of others, but the mediocre men will absolutely insist they are.
I've felt for a long time that, starting from Kindergarten, we need people to talk about working together, making friends, disagreements in relationships, community, etc..... In other words, ways that we can receive and give love to each other, and loving ourselves as well.
YES! Something I've been preaching to every teacher and educator I can find. Starting at a young age and having a homeroom session where everyone just talks about their feelings and what they are going through. Every student will be able to see they arent the only ones going through their problems, and they'll bond together. Years down the line they'll still have those connections, and the ability to share their issues. That will reduce so many of the negative issues we have as a society. Crime, toxicity, sexual assault, etc.
@@Khronogi Exactly! It's so much more costly dealing with people after they're screwed up! I've written people, too (even Oprah!). I really think something like this could transform society. I wonder if the Department of Education would do a study(?).
I think conflict management strategies are the key. In general. In society as a whole, but as you've mentioned in the younger years being even more important,Yes! All ways and many ways! I talk to my daughter all the time about this (as i am aligning with her mother and not estranging her) its harder to show but I keep co parenting and keep holding up the greater good of what we have rather than the selfishness of my needs not getting met. And try to get my needs met else where and know i picked her mom. So I gave to continue to choose her even tho i don't want to. Tough stuff.
This is really what story time or circle time is. What's often harder for educators is that parents aren't reinforcing these ideas and practices at home by reading to and with their kids. That way, a lot of opportunity is missed for children to learn to talk to their the people they trust the most about their feelings by discussing scenarios found in narrative. Trust me, school is already doing a tonne of work, not least because they teach the kids how to mediate their feelings through language. I can definitely see that being moved closer to the centre of the curriculum as a primary goal, but right now, it's definitely happening through various activities, reading and storytelling, especially. But reading and interpersonal communication isn't being modelled at home, unless you count being on your phone. Online communication is fundamentally different because it lacks the face to face element and therefore any real accountability. Computer usage also wrecks sleep patterns and makes people more irritable. Kids nowadays just see their parents glued to their phones and screens, rather than paper media (that doesn't have an interactive comment section) and follow suit.
Thank you for doing this podcast! As a woman, I've been wondering how someone like Andrew Tate has become so mainstream and this interview has answered many questions!
I'm so sorry that you've been terrible informed here by two people with icnredible bias. There were little sprinkles of truth here and there, but then those were also twisted. You sadly didn't learn a thing.
Whats crazy is the more involved in these communities guys get, the less likely they are to have a healthy relationship, even if they dont become a threat to anyone.
There are comments here now from people so deep into their community that theyre using their own slang as if anyone outside their bubble has a clue what those words even mean.
Well, if they don't become a threat to anyone, does it matter if they have a healthy relationship? Is that your responsibility? Just like people wasting away in jail, these people will either go round in circles with the dark paths they are following, or at some point find a way out. Maybe it's just a phase they're going through.
@@tomsmith6513 Responsibility? Isn't that just asking if we should care about other people? Im fine if thats everyones responsibility. Maybe it should be.
@@GGoAwayy I think it would be a waste of energy to worry about people who 1) aren't a threat to you 2) are over 18 years old and therefore adults 3) are probably capable of finding a way out of whatever "dark place" they are in (the ones who can't are just "losers" or mentally ill) The communities these people form might be seen as a kind of "purgatory," a place of self-torment and self-punishment (whether they see it that way or not). People going through a dark phase in life often need to vent their frustrations somewhere. Live your life. Let it be their problem.
Thank you so much for addressing this terrorism on woman. This is so heartbreaking because naturally and traditionally, men are our protectors, not the opposite. I wish in this society I wouldn't have to worry about getting home before dark
Thank you for this, Jon. Please have Laura again and also consider inviting Lundy Bancroft who has tremendous insight into this very important issue that affects everyone especially our children of all genders.
Jon. Love the show. Like every episode of offline I immediately run into my son’s bedroom and take his computer and phone away out of sheer anger that we’re letting this happen to our young men. I know he’s not falling down that rabbit hole but man am I worried about it every day. Great episode.
I wouldn't necessarily take his phone and computer away but maybe regular sit downs to discuss it? Although it's great to have breaks away from the technology even if it needs to be forced
@@Khronogi I’m saying that’d be my knee jerk reaction, not my literal action. We’ve always communicated about these things and as dull and boring as I find it I’ve tried to keep up with his interests so as I’m informed about what’s happening. I think we’re doing okay.
@@HankWilliams-kp3io what’s ‘the truth about women’? I also find there is a correlation between people who constantly refer to IQ and an actual lack of intelligence. Hopefully that’s not ‘the truth about’ all Hank Williams’.
39:48 I was friends with a few girls growing up. My older sisters (perhaps strangely) were the ones teasing me " ooooo... Billy's got a girlfriend" and the like. I was 6 and they were 8 & 9 and I remember saying to them "I don't have a girlfriend. I have a friend who is a girl." It still changed how I looked at things, though. I began to sometimes imagine motives in people's friendships. "They're only friends because" stuff. It made me wonder what women wanted when befriending me as well. I'm sure I missed out on some great friendships as a result.
It's a shame when older sibling or even adults tease and cajole young folk about having a "girl-friend" or a "boyfriend". It's often meant in fun, but it is just so unnecessary. Just let kids be kids.
Your sisters were children, so just perpetuating what they had seen others do. It’s up to’adults to be better. Also, ingrained sexism IS a thing in women and girls (of course)
A brutally revelatory and crucial discussion. Should be seen by all parents. Your guest has done incredible and brave work, and must be considered an important, groundbreaking expert in what will surely be a steadily growing area of social discourse.
Incels have an insular way of communicating, she didn't take the time to understand their insular way of communicating so she didn't create a reliable language model, William Costello is doing research on self-identified incels, and imo it's much higher quality work. I haven't paid any real attention to the 'manosphere' for a a very long time, but even I know that incels are black pilled, not red pilled. Red-pillers are pick up artists, black pillers are poison pilled, they're fatalist/cynics who don't try to make connections anymore. If she can't get that right how am I supposed to believe she understands them well enough to make an effective language model?
Wow. Thank you for having Laura Bates on. This is the first time I've heard her name. Between Laura Bates and Lovitt's take on the Budweiser Trans rep, my eyes are opening to my own language skills. Thank you for helping me make more fulfilling relationships with myself and my loved ones. Big fan of the pod.
Wow, as a UK older man I have noticed men that have gone through deviorce /seperation and the UK court system are bitter and hatfull but Wow, this is crazy didn.t know the young were also so jaded by their relationship experiences. it's so sad.
My parents generation (maybe mine via reruns) grew up with the image of 1950s/60s/70s sitcoms to model what relationships are. That was our media, for good or bad. A lot of easy things to point out about how bad that was about gender roles and how white suburbia focused it all was.
But its a whole different game when you talk about the media kids now are being raised on. No sitcom made anyone think rape was okay. There is no barrier in place between kids and the most extreme pornography thats ever been made. It twists their worldview. It shapes HOW they have sex when they actually DO have sex. It shapes what they will say within their relationships, how they will view and interpret events and gestures. Its a completely twisted view of intimacy and love. Im afraid of how messed up their brains are and the idea theyll be in charge of the world when Im old and frail.
Why wouldn't they because their wives decided they are not happy, OR those women secretly planned to divorce them all along just to take men's money and children from them? Either way, the state treats them worse than slaves. I can talk because I was married and am now divorced with no desire for a second go around. Men are treated like shit by women, and the state. That will be repaid, and it will not be good good for everyone. That is why MGTOW is expanding so quickly across the world.
As always, an excellent, worthwhile and critical conversation. It's crazy to sit here listening to this and have the realization,. that what probably angers the "radicalization-agents" the most is if we try to "stop it earlier" (engage with kids and younger ages to try to circumvent and prevent radicalization prior to it ever happening).. the reason that angers radicalization-agents is because it undercuts their goals. They WANT the radicalization (its the only thing that perpetuates the problem). Good on you for exposing that and helping people think about how to short circuit and stop this nonsense.
Why do you think they are working so hard to destroy public education? Extremists in this country want to have full control over how a child grows up, to the point they can be indoctrinated to do anything.
I mean if you can prove them wrong, sure. But there's enough good argument for a steelmanned version of the incel arguments to still preserve, and it makes you wonder, for example if mass female engagement in the workforce, certainly some male-coded or dominated ones, is a good idea.
@@talltrini10 ITt's a general evopaych argument, I'm sure you're seen the studies showing men have a muchhigher willingness for random sex than women do (i.e. gay and lesbian sexual behavior beingh significantly different), genederd (well sexed) differences in interests whereas men generally prefer working with things, women with people, male and female friendships function significantly differently (men can work in large groups for a certain goal much easier than women, for example). Incels talk about female sexual attraction working differntly than male sexual attraction, for example looks, wealth, etc. Given those online dating studies where women rate most men as below average as well as the fact that women value male wealth, even "independent" women who make lots of money, as shown by studires again, suggests this is niologically determined.
Just remember y'all, it's because we are moving towards progress and making tangible change that there is increased backlash from the other side. That always gives me hope when I see terrible things like this going more mainstream.
She means they’re making process in destroying things they view as evil; men, heterosexual people, Europeans, families, trees, wild animals etc. What she doesn’t realise is that the goal in unsustainable, like a cancer killing its own host expecting the experience to last forever
@Honk Honk you're thinking too small-scale. Remember how after slavery was abolished in the US and black people actually started holding positions in government or accumulating wealth, but then politicians made Jim Crow laws to disenfranchise them and rid them of their new-found power? It's similar to what's happening in our current times. Because when real progress and power are given to marginalized folks in this country, those in positions in power will double down and find a way to hoard it even more. Yet despite the back and forth, overall we're moving in a more progressive and just direction. Just think of how much societal and political attitudes have changed in the past 200 years in terms of visibility of lgbtq folks, expansions in voting rights, women advancing in education and the workplace, the civil rights act and non-discrimination laws. We still have a lot of problems, but in terms of social equality we are objectively in a better place than 200 years ago and that's something to be hopeful about.
Thank you Laura for doing the disturbing work of investigating these spaces and thank you Jon for the conversation! :) Everyone has a different mental constitution that is being obscured by virtual spaces...a joke for one is a call of action for another, which is scary to say the least.
I've read her book"Men who hate women" and it's a scary but necessary read.. An important thing is to propose example of healthy masculinity.. three online example that I can think of are the YT accounts "That Dang Dad", "Big Red Celt" or "Beau of the Fifth Column"..
@@menmykrazycat8129 Yes! Great at explaining stuff in a way that everybody can understand, wide variety of topics, a bit snarky sometimes but never mean and (for me) the perfect format (3 to 12 minutes videos) The other two are "short" format, too (& worth checking, of course)
6:32 You should have her explain how fighting against circumcision (int-activision) and for more fair child custody laws are anti-woman. What do women gain from the mutilation of baby boys aside from the foreskin in their cosmetic products?
It's mostly men in your family who tell you to circumcise a boy due to how it looks for their future. I've even heard to think about how the boy will feel in the locker room. Bad stuff.
I've been working in online spaces since about 2006 and none of these ideas are even remotely new. I remember a lot of the toxicity I would hear while playing online matchmaking-based games where you had the ability to talk to people on your team all over the world. That was really where I was first exposed to some of these ideas and this rhetoric. And I think for young boys who are into gaming, that's a really good place for these ideas to be introduced AND repeated inside a vacuum. And -women cannot be the people who fix this!!!-. We can't fix this, we're the ones who are being defined as not human. Change to eradicate misogyny HAS TO COME FROM MEN. Every single day, men just like you HAVE to be having these conversations with everybody all the time. After SCOTUS released the Doobs decision, one of the exercises we started engaging in was asking men "How do you talk to other men about protecting access to abortion?" It was nearly impossible to get any man on any side to even care. Misogyny is so prevalent even on the left that so many people don't even see it as a problem.
So you think men are inferior and need to be kept down, but you don’t think women are capable of keeping them down and that only men have what it takes to destroy and oppress men. So how are they inferior ?
I'm 60, father of a girl and a boy. My son is now 17. I teach my son every single day to: 1) Focused on him self, his studies, his future job, his career, his friends, his hobbies and make a lot of sport. 2) No short, medium or long term relationship with modern women. 3) No co-habitation with a woman or girl. 4) No marriage (NEVER). 5) No kids (NEVER). 6) No donate sperm (NEVER). 7) Sex? Only occasional sex provided by criminal feminism with sex liberation. These are the rules that all father on this hearth have been teaching to their sons (male). So the problem that you wathced here is more and more an more and more and more and more big!!! It is the consequence of this criminal feminism. You NEVER talk about the mistake of feminism. "Femin-ism" for media and politics is a movement without guilt, WRONG!!! Everybidy nowadays has understood the "social engineering" experiment managed by feminism. It doesn't work, wrong direction. It is Over. MGTOW is all around Us. What I teach to my dauther? The opposit!!!
The points about memes etc targeting young boys - I used to go to a nail tech who worked out of her house and her son (who I think is like 14-15 now) was on TikTok, and showed us both a video a friend had sent him that was a guy doing a voice over (to a Fortnite clip) going on about *feminists* who supposedly got these streamers to unalive themselves ON STREAM and bragged and celebrated about it etc. I was immediately horrified - as someone who has worked in games and esports - because I knew it was not true, but it's a very obvious (to me) tactic to try and convert the younger generation of gamers especially and those tuned in to social media into the incel radicalization. I wish I knew how to contact her still because I feel like this is a video she really would need to see.
Forums that allow their members to encourage rape and/or murder should be barred. Period. Men - Reach out and pull the guys you know who may be participating in this radicalization out of this. It endangers everyone.
1stly, yes it does endanger everyone. 2ndly, you're not fixing this by demanding men police men in a vigilante way. Incels LOVE being told they're wrong, backwards, evil. They HATE being told they deserve anything other than spite. They need real professionals to help them, they are mostly a danger to themselves, because it's a suicide cult, but suicides aren't good for anyone.
Thank you. The only way these lost guys are going to listen, is if it comes from a male. They hate women, so anything said to them by a woman will just go in the ear, out the other, and into the shredder. Men need to stand up against this!
That would be in violation of free speech, if you ask me. The same way as how it would be ridiculous to stop TV shows from showing off criminal behaviour. There are countless shows where murder is treated as justified in service of revenge, like John Wick, but those are not in danger of being barred, because of the writers' rights to free speech. There is also the fact that suppression of this sort usually just leads people to double down and feel vindicated as being on the revolutionary cutting-edge--- the logic is usually something like 'They cut my tongue out because they are afraid of what I might say.' They will usually just move to more obscure venues and develop more extremist views, even though their numbers may be smaller. What I think should happen instead is that such sites should be left alone generally, so that there's no illusion of 'silencing the revolutionaries' but should be made more difficult to reach for impressionable young people, basically, parents and guardians should take a bit more responsibility for what their kids look at, like with everything else.
The incel issue is not thought out and nuanced enough when Laura Bates talks. This woman fails to take into account her own privelige, social class and elitism. This woman wasnt born in and raised in government housing or as us Brits would call a council estate. Men have always had to compete for women and women rarely date down. The internet has made women have a plethora of options in which most of them compete for the most attractive and highest status male they can. I agree that there are incel forums out there that are toxic. But then feminists like Laura Bates then criticise men who get into pick up and mens dating coaches and seem to think it is all a scripted routine when it isnt, it is about confidence and being able to be comfortable around women and feel as though you are attractive and good enough. Most women have the luxury of not having to approach men and when they are in their.20s especially, they are more desirable and fertile so they have their pick. Men must have confidence and status to attract women whilst women need less of that. This women will probably hang around and date people of her own social class and status, for her she has.already broken the glass ceiling.
MENTORS AND ROLE MODELS for young men are so important! Boys seeing men treating women well, having good, heslthy, respectful relationships with them (both romantic and platonic) has the biggest impact IMO. And calling out other men, in the moment, when they do shitty misogynistic shit is paramount. Dont tolerate off color jokes in the workplace, dont laugh at them, dont ogle women at every opportunity, and you will soon hold a space where everyone else around you is doing the same.
This was a great episode, on a really important topic. This is a huge issue, I just wish more men talked about this. I'm sure a lot do, but they don't really have the same type of following as Tate or Peterson. In almost every case, in mass shootings, the gunman has horrible misogynistic views. And this is worldwide, not just the US.
So, back in collage my friends and I were all below 6 ft, having hard time building muscle despite going to gym 5 daya a week. Also hard time not gaining fat. Due to that we were invisible to girls. We were all smart, hard working guys with good sense of humor. But we were not what girls were looking for. Many of my friends were stuck in friendzones, some are still virgins in their 40s. So I am not surprised that many of them grew to be bitter and hate women.
False allegations are real I had a false allegation of sexual harassment made against me because I asked a subordinate to do her job (I did it 100% correct, didn't raise my voice or swear or anything, they had no reason to accuse me of anything so dont go there); she just made up a conversation that never happened I know three other men who have had false allegations made against them, one was viciously attacked by his wife multiple times but he was arrested for assault (she literally surprised him and tried to literally kill him multiple times) And two who were accused of sexual assault, one was saved by one of her friends who came forward and said she confided in her that she would make up the assault to get back at him for loving and leaving her; the other was saved because when cops asked simple details about his house she had no idea, just made up details (for example there was no bedroom on the first floor, no bed there either, and no floral sheets in the house at all)
And this is why my kids will not be getting personal devices that are internet enabled until they're THIRTY!! Okay, maybe more like 13 or 14 with extreme parent monitoring.
Monitor them. But don't be afraid to talk with them at their level and provide solid advice. Remember, it's a hallmark of intelligence to entertain an idea without succumbing to it.
Soooooo many buzz words.... This conversation is just a continuance of the popular disregard for people in favor of ideology. A woman explaining men is like a man explaining women, the smart ones don't even try. Also how did this become a anti right political conversation? Keep your boys away from these people. Coming in, I thought I found real subject matter. how disappointing.
Just wanted to comment to thank you both for doing this. I think we on the left are so used to concerns about porn being the hysterical anti sex rhetoric of the right that a lot of people have missed the algorithm rabbit hole that has infected that space as much as social media. The click economy has driven the rise of more and more extreme porn that simulates violence and humiliation rather than enjoyment. It's something our side needs to pay more attention to as part of this rising problem of violent misogyny. We need lawmakers who both understand the unique threats of the digital age but aren't hysterical reactionaries who see no difference between healthy expression and the really damaging stuff propagating freely out there among our kids.
The problem is that much of this is based on a kernel of truth which gives it validity. Family court is heavily swayed away from equity, colleges have virtually given up on recruiting males, sites like female dating strategies that tell women ways to milk men out of money and/or exploitation. These stories are true and known and instead of outrage these young men see “get your bag” when if there was equity they would be met with disdain.
There are simple solutions to each "kernal of truth" you raised... 1. Family court is not swayed to either gender. Men don't ask for sole custody, but on the off chance they do, they are overwhelmingly granted it. 2. Many men/boys are invested in the rhetoric that college is waste a time. That's a them problem. College recruitment is a matter that starts in high school. No one can force students to value it enough to apply--there's a thing called intrinsic motivation at play too. 3. Dating: men simply shouldn't date women whose values don't align with theirs. The answer is not to spend hundreds of hours online in echo chambers with racists, misogynistic men or excuse it away because some men are struggling with rapid changes in society.
You understand very few people are actually recruited to a college ? Right? See the way college works for 98% of people is you apply, they dont find you. The vast majority of people "recruited" to college are students athletes. I'll let you figure out on your own how many of them are men. My suggestion to you little man, if stop blaming everyone else for your own short comings. If you spent half the time you spend "researching" how women are holding you down on actually fixing yourself you would have a woman, a good job, and some happiness. Remember this, these people on UA-cam get money from you clicking on their videos. If you are happy, you will no longer click on their videos. They have a literal monetary benefit of keeping you unhappy. It's basically tim Pools business plan.
@@TijuanaKyour first claim I assume is based on the Massachusetts study which is hardly a reflection of the rest of america. It also reflects data that implies a majority of joint custody not sole custody. The percentage of joint custody between men and women is skewed towards women. On average 65-70% of custody time. Your second point is a subjective opinion of college. Not everyone thrives in college environments or benefits from their experiences especially in their future careers on average. Imagine you spend thousands of dollars that you don’t have and 4 years or more of your life studying for a degree in something that has an extremely saturated job market and very little practical skills outside of your field of study, how do you expect someone who now can’t find a job, is now heavily in debt, and now doesn’t even use their degree to value the traditional college experience? I’m seeing this right now with my roommate who is struggling hard to find a job in her field that sticks longer than 6 months out of college. And not for a lack of trying or working hard. If the point of college is to find a path to be successful, make money, further your education, and lead a fulfilling life why is no one talking about our trades that pay extraordinarily well, are often cheaper and take less time to complete, and are often better suited towards those who don’t fit in the traditional college track. I hate the attitude that oh that path is for the less intelligent or less driven. No it’s because their skills and interests are different, it’s not a reflection of their intelligence or their indoctrination in some belief system. It’s often the smartest choice over the traditional college track. Our trades are always hiring these days and they pay handsomely for hard intelligent workers. They deserve more of our respect.
This is why I changed my Twitter profile from a picture of myself to a picture of my dog. Before I did that, I was being sexually harassed, being personally attacked because of my looks, called tons of names…all from incels. If I dare say anything about Andrew Tate, I’d be roasted relentlessly from these basement dwellers. It’s been much more calm since the pfp change, although some people try and make fun of my dog.
Don't even post pictures of your Dog. I don't post ANY pictures of myself or anyone else I know on Social Media. I browse the Web like I did in the 2000's (+ Security in mind): DO NOT post information about yourself on Social Media. At all.
Thanks for having a guest who discusses the questions that surface daily about young American males. One of my best friends from science class, Robert stopped visiting after my grandmother asked where this gentleman was from."We're 8 He's not a man. And he's from science!" I thought her concerns were hilarious. But I did.wonder about his disappearance
How is this an interview? The host is just being a fan of the interviewee. The incel world is problematic but the complete dismissal of men's issues is the reason why the manosphere exists and grows. This has been an imbalanced one-directed propaganda.
'The people who tend to be drawn to extremism are men' Sure buddy. You mean 'the people who disagree with your hot takes tend to be men bc your hot takes tend to attack men' Or, possibly you mean 'people who tend towards the extremist views associated with men, are men' which is duh. Or you mean 'the main group of people i tend to acknowledge as extremists and attack are men.' The main problem with this crowd is their inability to understand just how extremist and out there in la la land huge swaths of people think they are. Like, i listen to the hot takes from this crowd, its always logically flawed, predicated on self-referential data, lacks any self-critical thought of historical analysis, typically obviously politically motivated and fails to understand or even remotely acknowledge that they could possibly be wrong. Its pretty sad. No, not a manosphere type either.
I don't get how or why 'incels' became synonymous with misogynistic terrorists instead of just guys unable to get into relationships with women. They don't deserve the hate coming their way. You see it here in comments as well. It's dehumanizing.
IKR, that's their concept of 'reaching out' to them. It reminds me of church missionary work in colonial holdings, they have nothing but disdain for the people they want to work with and they DEMAND ideological subordination.
@@jjoohhhnn Well they are failing as the numbers of 'incels' keeps growing ! I think in gen Z men it's a whopping one third. To me it reflects the flawed way we have structured society. Naturally women are inclined to form harams with a small number of high status men. The reason societies created all these rules around monogamy was exactly to prevent this situation from developing.
@@rolandxor179 female behaviour. That's why a lot of rejection happens with the incel community paying the price. It's the same principle as mentioned earlier. Their instinct is survival of the fittest. Men are brainwashed by equality, being decent and all those lies
It may sound ridiculous, but I think self service would solve a lot of sexual issues. If you can learn how to pleasure yourself, you aren’t desperate for someone else to satisfy your needs.
But what so many of these boys are lacking is an intimate relationship and the freedom to be loved while being themselves. The opposite of what this ridiculous "alpha male" BS keeps going on about to sell them so much "how to be a better man" merchandise.
Pretty sure these people are self servicing themselves all the time to the worst of online porn. In my opinion they need some kind of thing to help them snap out of it.
I used to have my pic for my thumbnail. The hate I received from mostly males for expressing my opinion … one even said he hoped god would smite me from earth… well… I now use a pseudonym and just that initial. This is a problem that goes un-rebuked on social media. The hate is real and safely anonymous.
Its a widespread problem of CASUAL hateful and violent speech. People feel free to say the WORST things like it's no big deal at all. And are shocked if there are ever any consequences for what they said. Casual murder threats. Casual rape threats. Casual racism. What the hell happened to us? Better yet, how can we undo it?
@A Person I'd bet they also make racial assumptions.
Same here.
As an FtM trans dude who passes relatively well (I pass as a cis dude) I can tell you how many times working in an all-male IT team, how many time I had to bite my lips, hearing the sick misogynist takes from coworkers (especially the conservative brown ones). The 💩 they’d say about women when they though they were amongst peers 😳 For my own safety/job security had to be quiet but ugh. Absolutely believe you! 🤦🏼♂️
@@jessehachey2732 Oh yeah.. the worst racist comments I ever heard were overheard because some white people assumed I was on their side. The weird thing about mysogyny is that mysognist men seem to assume all men are on their side. Its important to speak up. Bigots need to FEEL they are in a minority. I think they mistakenly believe "everyone thinks this even if no one says it." And NO. We do not.
When I was five one of my best friends was a girl, we would have 100% platonic sleepovers because we were five, but after a couple of years her mom made us stop being friends. Over the years I kept having many female friends and grew up well adjusted...her daughter fell in with a bad crowd and got knocked up and hooked on drugs before highschool. I wish her mom didn't force us to segregate, so I could have been a voice of reason.
Parents forcing kids to segregate by sex is an issue too, this was pre-internet.
Is it? I wonder. I bet our social institutions have a much larger role to play, and are likely the cause of such fearful, ignorant, puritanical behavior
@@O1OO1O1 Institutions do play a roll in brainwashing individuals, but personal accountability must be considered. No institution made my former friend's mom tell us to stop being friends, if anything, her own personal history played a bigger factor.
But yea, a lot of this goes back to issues of Church and State.
@@O1OO1O1 Well Puritanism can creep in the most unexpected places... five year olds can have sex drives, kid sex drives but sex drives nonetheless. Just saying nothing wrong with that.
my personal view that the "dating" culture, which is very American (although it is spreading) is what causes this. In Europe, most young all just hang out as friends, both sexes, then when there is attraction they break off into couples. But it is quite common to have a young man and woman out together as friends. Not saying Europe doesnt have its own problems with respect to this, but it is a very different dynamic.
There US is still very religious in many ways.
As someone who escaped, I can say one of the primary ways these communities trap people is by destroying their mental health. It's like an abusive relationship, they tell you that your failings are your fault and you should feel bad, but we're the only community that will accept you, will you really crawl out to get stomped by those who we tell you will hate you? It really is horrible, and creates a situation where it's hard to eacape
You should be incredibly proud of yourself. Misery loves company and being able to break free of toxic communities and thought patterns is a massive feat.
weaponized sociology. it's everywhere.
@@rasija4💯
And you're an incompetent who's decided to befriend in a community which was full of volatile suicidal ugly idiots that despite establishing really incredibly useful foundation of information, you are not going to make the conclusions for your own life's situation and join the most degenerate user's lifestyle because they can't really do anything with it. *Or maybe you should admit you're making this story up.*
Either which way, you don't simply start thinking like that unless you had experienced it, that society is like actually on a perpetual attempt to ruin your life. Maybe they do but it's within the flow of the modern-system natures and not a direct conscious process on their part. Maybe being that ugly, neurodivergent or lacking social prestige really sucks as a male and you hadn't initially established a good self-esteem + in a social group before falling victim to public degradation where it's really hard to escape the pipeline of helplessness.
That is terrible, I’m really glad you escaped! I also think that’s why it’s so important for people to understand how men get into these groups, and to be sympathetic and empathetic to their struggles, as opposed to attacking them. Because when we attack them, that just reaffirms that message… The whole world is against you, we’re the only ones that will accept you…
Thank you for sharing!
I actually stumbled upon this while working as a janitor here in Tallahassee and listing to it today (5/3/2023). I spent the following night working and going over in my head what to say. Here it is:
I can't speak about Incels since I'm not part of that group nor do I want to be, but I will say this about the subject. As someone with autism, we are not taught the nuances of love, sex, and relationships because autistic men (and women) are often seen as too weird, socially aloof, or undeserving of women. I suffered this back when I was young. Being a black person on the spectrum in a black family was a hard and painful experience. My father and brother constantly belittled and tormented me for not conforming black and/or male stereotypes. (i.e., listing to rap and playing sports) At this time, my mom had died, and I was being raised by my dad. The torment followed me into high school as I had a staff member call me "a retard with no friends/social life" With the family element absent and lack or peers my age, and with the onset of puberty, my knowledge of romance and love was somewhat primal. Society seems to think the road to romance is easy but in reality, it's anything but. I think a lot of men see this "simplistic" form of romance as reality but then find out this isn't so; they seem to blame women and broader society. Life is strange and not everyone can and will find romance, that's just how life is-unfortunately. The problem of incels dovetails into to our loneliness epidemic in our country in which people for all genders are dealing with loneliness. Of course, someone will say, "go on dates" and/or "put yourself out there" but what if there are no places where you can hang out with lightminded people? What if you have a late-night job where you can't meet people? Also, some jobs are so demeaning that all you want to do is just come home and relax. This is a very complicated situation, but I know one thing: Misogyny and bigotry in all its forms is totally UNACCEPTABLE!!! Women don't owe me nor anyone else ANYTHING! PERIOD!
I was doomed to crappy relationships my whole life because of where I lived.... I finally had enough and moved to a liberal city so I could meet people with values and ideas like mine, and now I have a wonderful husband and amazing friends. If I had stayed in Mississippi I would still be lonely and miserable. I guess it's a form of "social migration." I know full well it's a Big Damn Deal to pick up and move, but if you're able, it might be a life-altering change. I wish you ALL the good things ✨️ 🙏
Very detailed, thanks for sharing
@@shawnlove4502 Thx
Thank you so very much for sharing your incredible insight!! It is so incredibly depressing to realize that who we meet in our daily lives are not anything like they seem. I have 2 sons & 2 daughters, all grown now, but I fear for my grandchildren & future generations & often feel so overwhelmed!! You are a walking, breathing survivor of this ever growing cult of hate & the dehumanizing of people. I want to hear more from people who have narrowly escaped this contagion of hate & evil. God Bless you for sharing this & I am so sorry that you were so hurt in your past by the bullies & haters!! We can help others by telling our own stories!🙏🏻🦋🥰
Thank you sound like a thoughtful person and very honest to yourself -thanks for articulating this
Nobody is trying to fix the root problems we have in this country. Everyone is stuck focusing on making enough money so that the problems don't apply to them anymore.
The toughest part of that is that financial stability is pretty important if you are wanting to facilitate change. People aren’t going to strike if they can’t feed their families for example, even if they arguably should.
Capitalism is the root problem.. and we have a country of people who grew up under red scare messaging unable to critically think about our financial system because of hyper individualism and the myth of meritocracy.. to fix the issue we have to start engaging with ideas that are practically forbidden because they sound socialist. To fix the root issue you have to recognize the American dream myth was never based in truth
Actually capitalism as a system isn't bad at all. The problem is when it goes unchecked.
@@anonplussedhuman2615 Every player in the game is working to make sure it goes unchecked. Life is not livable for anyone not in the game
@@anonplussedhuman2615 a system that goes bad if it’s not constantly beat back from doing what it naturally does isn’t a good system.. the point of a system is to create one that can run on auto pilot without grinding up hundreds of thousands of its subjects with death and despair and abject poverty and practical slavery. A system that feeds on the weakest most vulnerable people is a shit system.
What you meant to say is capitalism as a system isn’t bad at all for you.. stating that you don’t have the worst position in a system isn’t stating how good that system is. You are just saying that capitalism has an acceptable level of carnage you don’t mind ignoring because it isn’t happening to you.
I think a worthwhile follow-up would be to interview "online" women in their 20s and early 30s about growing up in this environment. I'm also a millennial but younger than Jon (born '91) and was VERY deep into internet subculture from a young age. I was on 4chan in middle school (about 12 years old, when the website was first launched in 2003), digg, reddit... it was a wild ride. If you were a girl in these spaces in the 00s, there was a lot of pressure to prove that you were cool, that you weren't a "typical girl", that you loved gaming and internet culture and were sexually open and liberated (but not a "slut"), and it was a very confusing and frustrating line for a teenager to walk. I'm now 31 and looking back on my adolescence on the internet, I can't even imagine how much worse it would have been if my name and face had been attached all that time (since that was still the era where we were all taught to never give out our name or identifying information online).
Im so glad I just barely was able to have (most of) a childhood before the internet
I just wanted to say I had a very, very similar experience to yours growing up ('92!) online and being in those same spaces as a girl. It especially hit me hard with the discussion on this podcast about how "jokes" in these spaces just work to desensitize you to an incredibly damaging degree until you're vulnerable to extremism and too jaded to see the reality of what's going on. You're not alone!!
A slut is a woman having sex but not with the man calling her that name.
I'm from the Netherlands. I will post a video of what children (I looked it up, this specific show is for 10 to 12 year old) airing on SchoolTV but also on a public network aimed at children. In the example they are told what condoms are, how to NOT open them (nails/scisscors), how to put it on, how to safely dispose off it. But they also tell that the children watching this right now, doesn't mean they are even ready for that yet but one day they will and then it's good to know. In the US this would be classified as grooming right now, on the other hand it's 'just' some 25-30 percent really into all this gender, abortion, sexism etc topics.
Aside from learning about condoms, they learn the consquences of sending a nude photo to (what they might think, or even when it would be a boyfriend) that you can't trust people you don't know telling they are who they are online, which they do understand already, but sending a nude pic to a boyfriend and later gets posted all over school or whatever because she broke up. Long story short (not really sober now, sorry) we have one of the lowest (for many years THE lowest) abortion rate . This while abortion is legal here. We also have one of the lowest numbers of teen parents/moms. But with those conservatives in the US you have to fight two battles...they also don't want children to be sexually informed.
Jesus - I thought it was hard being a teenage girl in the 80’s 😣
John, I think this is your best and most necessary discussion yet because this topic undegirds so many of the challenges we face as Americans and global citizens. Misogyny is a prominent vein that runs throughout all of society .
I agree. But I would expand this thought. Misogyny is the one thread that weaves throughout history, cultures and geography. Are there any areas in the world where women are not oppressed, suppressed or fighting the glass ceiling?
@@LCamp-cr7fs Hi L. Camp, thanks for your comment. Misogyny is one of several concepts that have an enduring presence throughout time and place. I mention misogyny because that was the premise of this episode of offline.
@@viekent I am in my seventies. That is old enough to remember that women didn’t wear pants in the workplace, didn’t get a prescription for the pill if unmarried, didn’t get scholarships for many sports, were offered secretarial positions with an MBA, couldn’t get a savings account, mortgage or credit card, etc. I realize that we have come a long way (baby) toward equality. But we seem to be moving backward again. I have to remind you that equality has not been codified, that affirmative action has been weakened, and that public misogyny raises its ugly head. That is just the US, a first world country. It’s so much worse in many other parts of the world.
@@weston.weston Yes, I found the episode extremely interesting.
Only one Party is proud of segregation; 'war on women' 'war on color' in southern states since 2000 Tea Party days. Property ownership just one example.
My moms a teacher(1st grade on a k-4 campus) and I remember before I even knew who Andrew Tate was she came how and said “the kids are all talking about orange Bugattis” and she asked what the joke was. My younger brother said it was the weird UA-cam guy. And we all know what the guys deal is now so it’s scary that really young kids were watching Tate and talking about him
Thank you for bringing this out, John. As a 60 year old woman, I have known these guys existed but no one wants to talk about it. Or if we do we’re just labeled as man- haters and disregarded. I love and respect (many) men bc I know most are not like this, nor would condone this behavior and beliefs
I think this cluster of themes has been around a long, long time. I saw it in 1960’s era pulp Science Fiction. The internet attracts men, and so does Sci-fi.
I think it's important to explain what is meant by feminism. It is simply equal rights for women. I think many, if not most, men would agree with this but don't identify as feminists. They wrongly think of feminism as women superiority which certainly exists but that's a whole other thing
Naama Kates and William Costello are far more informed on the subject
@@viekent Your opinion about what Feminism is completely worthless. I would urge you to keep it to yourself.
@@queenamidala3620 which part do you take issue with?
What in the hell..... I feel ill. That was really hard to listen to. Thank you for researching this and shining a light on this kind of thing. It's important that people are aware that this kind of thing exists so that we can be aware of the warning signs.
Check out the number of followers people like Jordan Peterson, Charlie Kirk and Ben Shapiro have online. Marjorie Taylor Green gets all dressed up when she talks to them, very provocative.
@@juditrotter5176 huh whats wrong with jordan though??
@@MarvoloSalazarthe fact you don't know 🤦🏼♀️
@@ASMRyouVEGANyet that username tells me all I need to know though
Oh no, men are refusing to continue to suffer in silence! That's so gross!
I'm a 63-yr-old straight white male who welcomed the "Women's Liberation" movement and naively believed that men would have evolved out of sexist and misogynistic attitudes by now. Many of us did-- but I didn't see this horrible backlash coming. I also didn't predict the resurgence in racism, xenophobia, and trans/homophobia. What's especially disturbing and disgusting is the recruitment of young men and boys. We must call out this garbage when we see it-- and make it clear that life will be better and happier for these perpetrators
when they abandon hateful attitudes.
You dysgenic freaks can't lie your way out of this one. Reality is your enemy, have fun fighting it.
You think men can become women? Wow that's insane!
Let’s call it what it is: grooming. They’re literally grooming young boys and men into these loosely defined communities. Also, I think this idea that progress is a natural linear progression needs to be smashed into pieces. With my early education, it was presented that way to me too…until I got to university and really learned and discussed more about American politics and the unsanitized version of it. You start to break things apart critically, investigate and ask questions. What’s really sad is how these communities intentionally foster this circular logic that creates this bubble and it’s cult-like. I see the same thing with a number of religious communities (definitely all the fundamentalist ones)
Individual growth is almost always much faster than cultural growth. Cultural growth requires that lots of people make the same inner changes at the same time, and the odds are against it.
Crisis can speed things up, or put people in shock & make them backtrack. Take heart, folks. Despite the incels' backlash against feminism, gen Z threw out the GOP in the midterms, sufficiently to give us a democratic majority in the Senate, specifically in regards to the abolishment of abortion rights.
Incels are loud so we notice them, but gen Z, by and large is feminist, & the last elections show this.
Straight white male lol
I've never seen Jon look so disturbed.
This episode was incredibly disturbing but also very important to bring into the light. Thank you.
She is a male bashing feminist who hates men
Can’t find words to express my reaction to this painful but necessary illuminating conversation.
Just thank you…and please, keep up your great work.
Incredible conversation and I'm so impressed that you're openly talking about these hard conversations. Thank you!
@@coachingbydaisy-cf9yr di you just mansplain?
@@coachingbydaisy-cf9yr Sure. But not everyone concerned about men's rights, men's mental health, etc is a misogynist. There are misogynists in the group, but there are also misandrists within feminism.
wtf is hard about this lmao. this is the safest shit you could possibly say
Laura Bates is a liar and this talk is all anti-male propaganda.
Other youtube channel says that 25 percent of men are sexually abused or experienced something like that at some point (mostly by men) or in childhood.
So the Mee Too movement is not just about women. Lewis Hoves said he was abused in childhood and hundreds of men wrote to him that they also experienced it. So Feminists is also on the side of men.
Actually, men avoiding a one to one meeting with a woman in the workplace is *_not_* an unreasonable position. It may seem extreme, but *_better safe than called in to HR._*
I prefer not to be accused of fake SA
Always keep the door open, and if confidential, bring a buddy
It’s actually better for the women as well. Personally, I wouldn’t want to be alone with a strange man either. It’s a win-win. No risk all around.
What a great discussion!!! I took a lot of flack when my duaghter was in kindergarten. A boy in her class was constantly chasing her trying to kiss her. She didn't want or like his approach. I told her DON'T run. Tell him that's nice that he appreciates her but i don't like being chased. (in in 5/6 year old terms). Several other parents (moms interestingly) said "the kids are just learning to be boys and girls" To me this was an odd arguement. I was just trying to teach her to be a good human above
all else, respect others the way you want to be respected. I remained undeterred.
My daughter was born in 1982
@@nancyhayes1836Good on you for teaching boundaries while also teaching compassion and respect of others. I don't get the other mom's take on it, at all.
I wish more parents were like you. My grands wanted to play school the other day. So they taught their classes on kindness. The 4.5 year old was presenting "case studies" and asking "is that nice? " it was adorable!
When she said that one kid hugged another kid and asked "was that nice? " I responded (I think) differently than she expected. I said "it depends. If he wanted a hug, yes. If he didn't, then no." And recalled a time when she didn't want to hug me and I was OK with it.
I think it's important to teach children boundaries - how to set them and how to respect others'. And that they have bodily autonomy. (Obviously with children, that are times you may have to touch them in the course of their care even if they don't want to be touched, but plenty of times they should be able to decline offers of touch - hugs, kisses, etc. if they want.)
Changing entrenched culture is difficult and takes a very long time. Thanks for being on the forefront!
@Esmerelda Peabody Jones I love this!
Good on you! ❤
This was a great podcast. I remember being horrified when a cop kidnapped a women in London during Covid, drove her to a remote area r***d and m*****d her. He was arrested almost immediately and incels came out in droves to support this creep, saying things like she was too old and not pretty enough for this guy to throw away his life on. As if a younger victim would have made his crime more “worthwhile”. It was so inhuman and depraved. I’m glad I’m no longer dating, I wouldn’t feel safe at all putting myself out there.
Yes, I remember the news story. It was horrifying. And then not too long agon, another coip was arrested (thank god) in London (?) ... or somewhere in England for raping women.
That's horrifying!
Good post--and I love your cats!
thats a shitty story , and I think explains some of the reasons that I can't stand dating apps (as a 38 year old dude who doesn't subscribe to any of that incel crap) - in fact I don't think anyone likes them, but sees them as the only option because people are so withdrawn from healthy social interaction. The smartphone is like a nuclear bomb of bad information when given to people who don't appreciate the effect on humanity it can have. I actually stopped dating because of a relationship I had where the girl was highly manipulative, and then covid happened and since we have tried to re-normalize again, it's been extremely hard to rebuild any kind of social network irl that may have once previously existed.
I unfortunately chose a career in tech because I thought I'd be good at it, before I became aware of what social media was doing to us as a culture. I don't use any of the big platforms, I always prefer real life organic interaction to algorithmically planned matchmaking, and I'm pretty jaded at the state of social affairs. It almost feels like a catch 22, I'd love to join some kind of anti-tech pro-social movement, but to organize it tech is pretty much necessary or else no one will hear it. When I was going back to school during the covid times , I went down a few rabbit holes of social media disinformation and what was causing it, mainly because I couldn't believe that people had bought into trumpism. I ignored the dude completely for 3.5 years till he threatened to shoot protesters after the Floyd murder, and then when I got a call from ym dad in florida, he seemed to know nothing about that but all about "Obama gate" - that's what brought me here today, disinformation and interest in how tech is destroying the things that make life worth living, without making too much noise about it.
What made me post this is that you said you've stopped dating because of the internet, which I don't blame you for and am sympathetic to. It's just another data point in what is many data points I've noted in the crumbling fabric of 'western society' for lack of a better word. I refrain from hyperbole but none of this is surprising to me, it seems like the natural consequence of "democratizing" information in such a widespread and easy to manipulate way. I don't know what the solution is but my gut tells me it's the biggest problem we face as social creatures.
@@stregalilith Thank you! Maine Coons are both beautiful and loyal, best breed ever. 🩷😽
Excellent episode. It really needs to be addressed as a society. About the Twitter debacle I'm reminded of what I thought long ago as I watched the GOP cave to the Tea Party and later completely devolve into the Trump cult----the problem with pandering to extremists is you run out of pander long before they run out of extreme.
Ohhh.... I like that line! I'm stealing it
Yes. There is no end to their extreme. Especially their hatred and divisiveness.
It goes way further back. To my knowledge, the Regan Administration is what solidified the “religious right.” There has been a RABID fervor against civil rights since before they were even introduced.
The most incredible thing is that extremists hook men (especially, not only) by their myth of masculinity but it's all very vague in their ideology.
How long does it take for an average IQ person to realize that they are not even gaining anything by devolving to the cult of an extremist?
How long does it take to realize that you're serving an agenda but that agenda is not even serving you?
I'm right and I'd say the same about the left. In general, media takes extreme examples to get us passionate to vote these people in office. The right thing to do is stop blaming parties ans realize it's a bigger issue.
As a grandmother, my main goal is to help my grandson become a well rounded individual. Thanks for addressing this topic.
You assume that will help him in society? Curious. Why? Most people your age--not all, but most--grew up in a very different, much easier society where finding work was easy (multiple job offers), buying a house was possible, and women had values. Or at least, more values.
Society doesn't value well rounded people. It values exploiters and people who will walk over others to get ahead. And hyper specialisation. Which is only possible through mass exploitation.
You're doing good, Granny Nancy, and your grandson will always have you in his head and heart to guide him.
He is so much better off with your help and concern. Thank you for being a part of his life.
@@O1OO1O1 What a small, scary view of the world you have. And it's very wrong. Let's go point by point:
The economic reality of older generations does not change the need for kindness and understanding. Indeed, every Era has valued kindness, and Grannies have been revered for their wisdom since before writing was invented. Only a fool ignores his Grandma.
Society does value well rounded people, and in fact many professions emphasize broad learning as well as specific areas of expertise. Among these are doctors and nurses, teachers, mental health professionals, marketers and advertisers, artists and musicians, industrial designers, content creators, financial advisors, community outreach professionals, and a lot more. As well as these professions our society has several areas of academic study which specifically emphasize broad learning, like sociology, childhood development, history, and environmental biology.
Modern American society collects power with wealth, and that does come from exploitation for the most part. But I would argue that the people who hold power are far removed from the rest of us, and so who we value in our daily life is different than what large scales look like. Personally, I value the kindness of my local shop keeper, and the guy who delivers the packages always has a joke. I value the insight and support of my friends and family. Society is made up of people by definition, and I think what people value is much more personal that your statement allows for.
Hyper specialization is a product of the world being complicated, and there's no other way to get things done. It takes about 10 years or 10,000 hours to become an expert in something, and there are SO many complicated things in the world. Did you know there are like 20 different kinds of mortar to use when building? And that if you use the wrong kind, your building will collapse? That's just sand and water, basically, and even that requires expert experience. Imagine how complicated the human body is, or how to transfer a signal from the ground to space and back, or how to make an air conditioner. The world is complicated and super specific, and expertise is how we made the advancements we have today.
I think your view of the world is too tech based and you're only looking at that side of our society. Remember, most people don't care about Twitter, and society is not accurately reflected anywhere online. You can only learn so much about people and who they are and what they care about from behind a screen.
@@O1OO1O1 And the biggest flaw in your statement, women had more values in the past? That is indicative of several biases you hold and a deep misunderstanding of women's history. Tell me, is it a moral stance to do something under threat of violence? If you are told shoveling horse manure is a good and noble thing, and if you don't do it you will be beaten, does shoveling manure mean you have the right values? You ignore the reality millions of women still face around the world, which is that for most of history women were consisted property. In America, women couldn't open their own credit card until 1978, and weren't included in medical studies until 1994. So, are you advocating for sexual slavery? Is that the kind of values you wish were still present? Or, maybe that's too harsh for you and you'd rather women just bear abuse and financial servitude in silence? I wonder what YOUR Granny thinks of that, and what she has suffered in silence. Maybe you should ask her and really try to listen to what she says. Remember, only a fool ignores his Granny.
Jon, this is one of the best segments I've watched. Laura is brilliant. As a mom of 22 yr old male/female twins and a 14 yr old female, I can see a radical difference those 8 years make. I am thrilled to have parented a son and 2 daughters who are everything I'd want others to find in a meaningful relationship.
Thanks for covering this. So much overlap between many of our current societal problems.
This is by far the most informative and frightening podcast I've heard. Thank you.
Oooooo, men are human and have problems and are capable of suffering, soooooo spooky
@@mrosskne I’m pretty sure they’re referring to the people sending death threats and glorifying mass shooters.
@@LoneWulf278 never happened
@@mrosskne It definitely did happen. 😂
@@LoneWulf278 cope :)
We like to think of these men as incels, which comes from involuntary celibate; however some of these men are husbands and fathers. Men may not understand how women fear these men because we have or had them in our lives or we have watched friends suffer. Thank you for this conversation.
True. I hear these attitudes from married straight men at work.
I don't think we really care what women think
@@Joshua-eo5hr Well. It sounds like something is wrong with you then. Hope you get better someday.
@@GGoAwayy Why is it always the weak men standing up for females? You hear this from men at work because bitxhes ain't shit. This is normal behavior from most men unless you're gay and paint your nails.
@@Joshua-eo5hrFinally! An incel who will admit his faults and insecurities! Good to know there is at least one of you out there.
This is maybe the most important topic of our time.
Agreed. It undergirds so much about our human need for connection and belonging, and our dangerous propensity for destruction when our feelings get hurt. Wars have been fought because of tender egos like this.
i posted something similar, but a little broader scoped. It's about power and control in general, and while this podcast is great, they have blind spots even to their own social media addictions. They seem surprised that they got rid of the blue chcks and people are still mad, because it was never about the blue check marks in the first place. It's just another increment in the attempt to shift power dynamics.
I'm glad that she ID'd that there are often successful people, like Republican politicians who push horrifying misogyny. It's not always the guy living in his mother's basement and unemployed.
Absolutely! Men in power lead them.
@@cherylj7460 you old fossil
I thought that was actually disingenuous to conflate the two. She said they spoke at the event, they were there to get political support, whether they like them personally or not. It's a power grab, and the people who are there have real issues that are misconstrued or gaslit, and you end up with a hate movement/movements. She says they're different groups later on, but it was ineffective at best to make that claim without the nuance later provided.
And they often wrap it in religion acting they’re the good guys when they’re just misogynists.
@@missinterpretation4984 Exactly
I'm grateful that exposing these issues is gaining traction. For further study, F.D Signifier has illuminating deep dives on edgelords, the manosphere and the black manosphere on UA-cam.
I love that channel!
Thanks. I will check out his channel.
They've BEEN exposing it and it's only grown stronger lol.
Streisand effect to the max lol.
@@meghan42 dude touches on so much more but his takes on these issues specifically are substantial.
I SO MUCH enjoy Pod Save America - each and every podcast is informative, funny, and helps me understand the world better. Keep it up, guys!
I would say that in my professional life, all of my advisors and counselors were women, except my grad program advisor who was a man, but it was women who helped me think out my life, and I had a really productive one.
I guess it all started when my mom, as a schoolteacher, came home one day complaining that the coach at the parochial school where she was a lay teacher got a big fat raise, and when she asked, was told "He's supporting a family." I was eight at the time, and wondered from that point why women were paid less.
Never understood it, but fortunately all of my jobs were all union jobs in unions where everyone was paid the same. Women have been such a boon in my life, and I'm a gay guy. I always saw women as equals.
One of my colleague's father died of flu in the 30s and her mother had to support the family as a college teacher. She was cut first when there were staff reductions because "the men need the jobs to support their families." It never changes.
My only male friends are gay ❤ I love gay men ❤ the only men I feel truly safe and loved. I wish you all the best ✨
Have you ever wondered why you always consider women's feelings first, and men's never?
@@iLilith11 Digusting sexist
@@iLilith11 so which straight guy hurt you??
I am 67 woman and I have known being a woman has never been 'safe'. Laura Bates is a brave women doing important work
Men are killed more often than women men account for the majority of homelessness no one cares about men.
Yet men are the victim of violent crime and murder at a much higher rate.
How many people - boys did you get empowerment from when you excluded them in your lifetime( for better men) when you were younger ??.
What about all the vulnerable boys and men who are exploited? Do you gaf about them? You are literally perpetuating sexism. The world is NOT SAFE FOR POOR AND MARGINALIZED PEOPLE. regardless of gender.
stunnin and brave
I am likely an outlier, but being from GenX, I do fully understand the fact that the digital world IS the world for young people today, in part because it has largely become the world for many people I know my age. Any time I see a younger person repeat something toxic they saw on TikTok, I'm quick to seek conversation about it and see if I can get them to re-examine these things they're seeing all day. I'm still hopeful about GenZ/Alpha
gen y here. you know, one of those pesky boat rockers. lol. the think tanks have dispatched boatloads of "mra" shills and trolls and bots. they made sure to make plenty of them "our age" so that we a) look bad, and b) would listen to them.
NOT WORKING. and the ruling bloodlines seem to hate us most of all for that. :D
I have a 6mo old daughter and it's terrifying this is out there. There's a lot of generational trauma and stigmas to unwind here.
O.k then get some self-esteem, know your worth, GET OFF THE INTERNET!!!! GROW SOME BALLS!
Shes gonna be our f toy soon ^-^ WE WILL TEAR DOWN THIS MEANINGLESS SOYCIETY!
I guarantee most of us "incels come from single mother homes... no dad's... so don't blame mysoginy my mother chose mysoginy for father of her child me... she chose to be used as a "cumbucket" and decided to keep the baby of the boy that treated her like this... abortion was an option but she wanted this boys baby so much... she had no respect for herself or for her child... she deprived me of a father... she a disgusting little rat... she raised me to be feminine which in turn has made women only like me for one reason and that's because I'm a doormat... rage!!!! she raised her child to be a failure out of misplaced animosity towards me when it should have been directed at my father...
as a result I have deemed her not my mother she just a cumslag and she will be deprived of her firstborn child... and I will end this piss poor mix of DNA for betterment of humanity... her retarded choice shall not go on in the human populous it makes me feel good to know this is why I am here... to end the cycle of suffering.
@@MojiMikatoyou're talking about a BABY like this. Go ahead. You only expose yourself.
@@MojiMikato not cool man ....
Fantastic discussion once again - had no idea this was happening in such an extreme way 😢
As a mother of three boys, 19, 14, 11 this hits me hard. 😥
Laura did linguistic analysis which is almost certainly not the best way to study the group, because they make a lot of gallows humor. Richard Reeves has some really great videos on Big Think that imo cover the topic in a more wholistic and less pessimistic way, and doesn't focus on the most extreme fringes of the larger issues causing the problems. Because a lot of people don't understand the purpose of the first video titled Male Inequality Explained by an Expert, he starts by talking about solutions, and ends with the issue he wants to address, which is the mental health crisis in boys/men.
She lumps Men's Rights Activists into the same category as incels. She doesn't know what she's talking about. Males have the freedom to advocate for themselves without being called incels. Don't believe everything she says.
@@jjoohhhnnwomen also have mental health issues. We havent created a cult of violence against men. Don't sympathize with misogynists.
@ASMRyouVEGANyet so your solution is what? Criminalize the idea? Thought crimes, for the good of the people. A tool that can never easily be misused, and is always effective for counter-culture suppression. 10/10, therapy is not the solution, the cops are.
@ASMRyouVEGANyet or are you suggesting the limp wrist of social shame to de-radicalize counter-cultuer? Lmao, government therapy is the fastest solution to deradicalization. It is for all cults, and incels (self ID 'members') are a cult.
I have both of Laura's books. They ought to be required reading for men of any age. I felt outraged and angry that men and women are treated so differently - not only in the workplace, but by our own police and judicial system. They made me reflect on a lot of my own past behaviour too.
Reading that bullsht is cu/cked. If a man had wrote it about women, it would be hate speech, equality applies. The only good place for her books is on the campfire.
Gosh. I knew some of this but what is described here really made me feel sick and very worried for young people (and older ones too tbh). So important to make this issue much more known and visible, and to preemptively explain to younger boys what they are going to encounter online and to call it out as very dangerous and damaging lies. 😢
Wow. This was really hard to hear, but it’s so important to take this seriously.
Her point about a generation of non-digital natives raising digital natives hit hard. As a boomer, I find myself reflecting on this often. I am a typewriter native 😳😳 so this was a challenge for me as my grandkids were growing up… but I’m trying!Great interview as always.
Loved the discussion about the dominion case, too. I am trying to keep in mind that this was dominion’s case, not mine. So they got the outcome that was right for them. 🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️
Thank you all for what you do. This is one of my favorite places to get information but you also help to calm me down. 🥰🥰✌️✌️🌟🌟
Every once in awhile I glance into these rabbit holes and feel too nauseous to keep going. She has a lot of fortitude.
I met one guy on a discord server who wanted to kill himself. He was dancing on the edge of incel ideology, though he refused to see it. The only significant woman in his life was his sister, who raped him. He’d never known a woman who wasn’t a failed romantic endeavor, an unstable authority figure, or a rapist.
I was determined to drag him away from the path he was on. He said hurtful things to me. He constantly accused me of hating him or abandoning him, but I never left. He needed to see that women could be a stable fixture in his life, even unromantically. He did eventually admit that he was surprised how long I stood by him.
I think I helped him through a terrible period in his life. He eventually was able to find a safe living environment. He mostly only contacted me when he was in a bad place, so I hope him eventually no longer reaching out was a good sign. Maybe I failed and he did eventually fall down the rabbit hole. But I think I at least gave him a chance to avoid it.
As a gay man I dont see these attitudes among other gay men I become friends with... but almost EVERY straight man I become friends with at some point shares some view with me that makes me wonder what parts of the internet they hang around in where they absorb these sorts of messages. All I can do is be a voice of reason, but its a fine balancing act to do that while not just making them decide to stop sharing with you.
The dynamics of gay relationships aren’t comparable to straight ones. 100% of gay males can find a partner regardless of their looks while only 10% of straight males meet the visual standards of women.
Gay couples have equal responsibilities while in straight couples 100% of the responsibilities are on the male.
Gay males all face the same situation in life while men live nightmarish lives and women live lives of blissful luxury
Real men don't like bitches
Last I remembered, the manosphere goes into detail of how queer people prove them right, i.e. gay men aren't sexually enslaved to or attached to women, so they can be as redpilled as possible. Similarly, the statements of transpeople MTF and FTM themselves have recognized the biological aspects behind gender roles.
Misogyny goes hand in hand with homophobia so it isn't surprising that you and your friends aren't like this.
On the Daily Show, they had a man discuss his book that I believe was called 'The Man Box', and it talked a lot about those correlations.
Thank you for being a good person. We don't need more bigotry in the world.
@@jimmoriarty9440 Ancient Greece, Rome, the Samurai of Japan, and Central Asia say "what"? Also the Muslim World to a lesser extent....
I don't know whether it's more important to thank Laura Bates for her important work, or apologize that she had to do that.
Great interview. Thanks Jon.
Jon, I love all things Crooked Media. And this episode of Offline is so important. I want to note that I’m 17 minutes in and am in tears. I have no say, but I think it’d be a good idea to put a warning at the beginning of the video, saying that the episode discusses r**pe, m**der, etc. But, truly, thank you for doing this! I hope it helps a LOT of people! 😊
Studdies show trigger warning triggers people.
@@TheEmbrio
No they don't.
(everything sent my way to prove that was literally motivated nonsense people - one guy, iirc, with obvious hate for and lack of understanding of TW conducted. I think there wasn't even with people with ptsd included, or some such bs.)
Thank you so much for this research and analysis! Laura is a true hero! I am a feminist single mother and have raised my son with strong female friendships, all toys (so he played with dolls, kitchens, trains, etc.), consent education, etc. but now that he is a young teen and has a smart phone, he has become intrigued by porn and Andrew Tate and finds ways around all the parental controls. In some ways, it is his rebellion. I so appreciate the advice here but one issue not addressed is that parents are being denied their right to protect their children both from the toxicity and misinformation online and the physiological effects of screens (dopamine addiction, corrupted brain development expanding amygdalae and interfering with capacities for memory & concentration). When screens are required for both homework and social life, and this produces both academic degradation (ChatGPT etc.) and unhealthy teen culture, why isn't there a large movement demanding screen-free childhoods and schools? Or at least separate devices (flip phones) and a separate internet for children with no ability to access adult content? Why are we supposed to just accept the capitalist-driven tech culture as a fait accompli?
The level of control and monitoring you’re proposing to enforce the society you laid out would require government surveillance the likes of which the CCP could only dream of. Humans are not built for the internet because the internet has redefined humanity. The world is a radically different place than even 10 years ago, do we want to implement draconian technology laws to stifle kids ability to learn on how to interact with what will likely be an integral part of their lives. Parents can only try to inform and emphasize the importance of the real world. Seeing beautiful land marks, appreciating a sunset, look for the happy little moments as the man with the best white afro would say. The problem is the internet is really good at giving just enough of the little moment to make your brain think that it just did something good.
Addiction, I suspect. Watching John and Co. defend Tok-Tok, a _toy_ connected to a competitive if not outright hostile foreign power, is a bit gobsmacking. It's just a toy, an entertainment device. It's not even unique, just very efficient. So why can't we go screenless? IMO because we're addicted.
Life sucks. Plug in and check out.
Also self-segregation. I want to talk to people like myself and can do it on demand. What's my immediate incentive to not do that and instead go loiter with my neighbors and reveal how little I care about local sports? I'd rather go to r/EldenRing and get excited about the latest Dex/Faith build or lore dump. Sure my community erodes but in the right now the difference in experience is enormous.
We're humans. We want to be with people like ourselves but need people who are different. It's a terrible paradox.
@@HonkHonkler Which "He" are you talking about?
Here here!! I've been thinking about exactly these points for a few years. We have to accept capitalist-driven tech culture because we haven't organized enough to push safety regulations. In the name of free speech, which has been a catch-all excuse for profitable manipulation.
Regardless of what you teach boys, boys will eventually grow up. It's inevitable. You either learn to live with the devil, or . . . learn to be in conflict with it. As they say, boys will be boys.
One of the things I used to do as a kid was go looking around for spiders . . . Sometimes I would blow them, poke them with a stick or just step on them for fun.
Sometimes people would say, "why don't you just leave them alone? If you leave them alone, they won't bother you." Boys/men, are a bit like those spiders I used to attack and harrass. Some spiders are poisonous and can kill you with their venom. Most, however, will leave you alone if you leave them alone.
I read Lauras book a while ago, she is doing fantastic work although incredibly difficult. Thank you for this episode, Laura you are amazing
I like her emphasis on having empathy. Separating the lost causes from the victims. Still there is a lot of misandry online which reinforces the views sold by incels... that men are being treated as second class citizens in many way. A young 16 year old boy questioned why is he the villain nowadays for being white and male. People who complain about misogyny and don't care about humor that is violent towards men or that disregard men's suffering should understand they are feeding the problem in a way.
look at every news article. every talking point. even her response in this video. it all comes from white supremacy and white privilege. thats the problem the answer to all problems these days. the white male is literally used as the bogeyman in everything today. and if your that, then you are the problem. and now they have it as unconscious biased and racism so your bad even if you want to do good. how are young males supposed to feel? they are literally gaslighting males who complain they are unfairly being grouped.
I can acknowledge that there are a lot of miserable white men, but their "suffering" is dwarfed by the people who are really oppressed; I don't think they are true victims. But white men don't become the villains because of external oppression, but because of their own choices in response to a gender polarized world. There are a lot more white male allies to oppressed groups who don't need everything to be all about themselves and their own pain, they deal with their own pain by working against suffering of all kinds, rather than thinking that they are the most oppressed group and are justified in creating suffering for others, specifically women whom they blame for all of their problems. The incel mindset is a kind of arrested juvenile set of behaviors which is a choice to be in a pack of juvenile male predators who justify their actions based upon their hurt feelings rather than to grow up and become a contributing member of society and able to put the needs of others first as good mates and parents of both sexes need to learn to do. People who want to end misogyny aren't by definition into misandry, rather they want an end to both and want a society that embraces everyone and encourages everyone to learn to be caring to everyone else. You don't learn to become a grownup contributing member of society by focusing on your own suffering, but by helping to make the world a better place for others.
Same
This is one of the most important conversations on Offline yet. Please continue exploring this thread. The violent rhetoric and real life consequences are so terrifying for women, femmes, nb folks, etc. Also terrifying that young boys are being targeted, and girls are being harmed. As Laura points out, the intersection with white supremacy is a critical point. There's so much to wrestle with here, and having men like you take on these conversations is necessary.
Being Dutch myself, having legal prostitution available helps too. Also against sexual assaults and more benefits, like taxes or them being tested frequently for STDs. People are human beings and some can't cope with not being able to 'do it', maybe some of them will get out of their circle that way.
These men are growing in number for a reason, and that reason isn't recruitment and marketing. These men are seeing the world they are in and trying to cope and enjoy themselves. Their communities don't realt concern you or I. Our input isn't important to them and you can't arrest all of them.
@@buckaroobonzai2909they’re not trying to cope, they’re trying to actively burn it all down. As a father of a daughter and sons, this terrifies me.
There are mostly people from all around the world in these communities, not just white, I can’t believe she thought this all this time.
The average user in these communities are middle eastern men…
The real life consequences of men killing themselves by thousands are so terrifying for women
Such a great conversation. Watching the rise of andrew tate and other manosphere creators go viral has been extremely concerning bc initially the content seems largely benign and so quickly it turns to physical violence against women. Also, seeing how younger and younger boys are getting pulled in under the guise of being an 'alpha male' makes me extremely nervous
Andrew Tate is free now
Same here.
Andrew Tate is not an 'incel' he's just some petty criminal that runs or ran a webcam sex worker business and grew rich as a result.
The 'incels' are the sad blokes paying for his web cam girls. It's also a very sad state of affairs that this pimp is seen as some paragon of manhood.
@@Joshua-eo5hrdoesn’t mean the context he puts out is any better or less damaging than it was.
@@Levelochef he a positive influence on young men
There was a Long Story Short segment on the Daily Show as well that acts as an interesting supplement to this, especially in regards to the male role model aspect of this. Replacing someone like Tate with someone who is a better role model that shows how you should respect others in general.
Not one solution discussed the algorithms that sent them down the rabbit hole in the first place. 😢
I've noticed that when I Google a subject, I get accurate Healthcare information, perhaps because I'm a Healthcare Professional. When my roommate who has visited sites with alternative medicine, is directed to Conspiracy sites with misinformation. The algorithms affects all areas of the internet.
Algorithms don’t do anything beyond recommend content similar to content you already viewed and engaged with. This seems to more accurately describe the reason the world online seems to be hurdling toward the far right and far left parts of the internet. There’s not really a good way to get rid of them.
That was such a good interview- she extremely eloquent and balanced in her explanations. Would like to comment that there is a big negative influence some mothers behavior may have had on these boys/ young men.
Balanced? She outright claims that the entire manosphere is misogynist. That's no more true than a guy claiming all feminists hate men.
Bingo. Father isn't present and mother coddles the son. Some grows up with issues from that.
Thank you for this! I am finding more and more women in my practice who struggle with their male partners' espousing male influencers like Tate and Crowder. I would love to learn more about how to help them recognize what is being done to them and tools to prevent the kind of carnage I'm seeing. Women do not require a huge online presence to be utterly road-killed. I'm starting with Ms. Bates books for a good foundation.
Diversity hire is real.
Yeah they should only listen to the cult leaders that you agree with right?
Stephen Crowder? He’s just a conservative comedian of sorts - he isn’t fueling the incel movement. If anything, he is guiding men out of it. Jordan Peterson is as well
@@brianmeen2158 He’s a terrible person. Even his co-workers have exposed him.
Had a friend go down this rabbit hole - wealthy, bright, educated, conventionally attractive, well-read, excellent career, etc: not at all what you would expect an incel to look like. But his fiance cheated on him and left him, which led to depression, which led to loss of self-confidence and not shaving, and so forth. Now he feels less and less attractive, etc. He reaches a point where he's not looking for anyone new, and then starts simping for an egirl streamer and replaces a real relationship with this paid one. Obviously that's going nowhere, and when it peters out, he's distraught that nobody is new is finding him - that his life has taken a years-long detour off course from his original fiance. He should have kids by now, etc.
Enter the pipeline not only to incel extremism, but white supremacy, via pick-up artists & bodybuilding - and they both have all the answers to his problems.
It only ended because eventually a nice girl flirted with him at the gym - and nearly overnight all the bullshit he built up in his head vanished.
The biggest thing by far, is human contact - they need to interact with others on a regular basis - they need to talk to people about their feelings (depression/loneliness/societal pressure on them/etc) - ultimately it's toxic masculinities aversion to discussing basic human emotions that allows these negative emotions to spiral beyond recognizability into destructive beliefs (destructive to themselves and others). And when you hear them say things that aren't true - are deeply cynical - are dangerously approaching the slippery slope - you need to speak up and slap them out of it. It's never a joke with them, it's testing the waters and searching for truth - and if the joke goes unchallenged - then it must be true.
I didn't do enough of any of this at the time, it only began to make sense when I could see in retrospect that it was possible to help him. It's a slippery slope but a helping hand can stop their descent if it's offered at the right time.
The whole distasteful joke and testing the waters thing is so true. It reminds me a lot of what child groomers do 🤢
Noone of you can debunk the incel pill. All they can do is insult back. Look at the podcast
@@theragoooverlord5021 what
@@Sarah-re7cg reread my comment and listen through again. Her suggestions are silly. All they do is tie incrl nto what they hate politically. Insincere way they talk to you.
@@theragoooverlord5021 oh okay I understand what you’re saying now. When you said it can’t be debunked, I thought you were implying that their (incels) reasoning was sound. Yeah, it’s circular, it’s like a cult. You can’t “debunk” people who are married to an idea despite the contrary. The solution has to do with deradicalization and prevention. The form of deradicalization depends on how radicalized the individual in question is.
Good men ARE being left behind in lower-level management.
Wait til you hear how many women and POC have been shut out of management altogether since the beginning of time. And in modern times "good men" aren't being passed over in favor of others, but the mediocre men will absolutely insist they are.
I've felt for a long time that, starting from Kindergarten, we need people to talk about working together, making friends, disagreements in relationships, community, etc..... In other words, ways that we can receive and give love to each other, and loving ourselves as well.
YES! Something I've been preaching to every teacher and educator I can find.
Starting at a young age and having a homeroom session where everyone just talks about their feelings and what they are going through. Every student will be able to see they arent the only ones going through their problems, and they'll bond together.
Years down the line they'll still have those connections, and the ability to share their issues.
That will reduce so many of the negative issues we have as a society. Crime, toxicity, sexual assault, etc.
@@Khronogi Exactly! It's so much more costly dealing with people after they're screwed up! I've written people, too (even Oprah!).
I really think something like this could transform society. I wonder if the Department of Education would do a study(?).
I think conflict management strategies are the key. In general. In society as a whole, but as you've mentioned in the younger years being even more important,Yes! All ways and many ways! I talk to my daughter all the time about this (as i am aligning with her mother and not estranging her) its harder to show but I keep co parenting and keep holding up the greater good of what we have rather than the selfishness of my needs not getting met. And try to get my needs met else where and know i picked her mom. So I gave to continue to choose her even tho i don't want to. Tough stuff.
This is really what story time or circle time is. What's often harder for educators is that parents aren't reinforcing these ideas and practices at home by reading to and with their kids. That way, a lot of opportunity is missed for children to learn to talk to their the people they trust the most about their feelings by discussing scenarios found in narrative. Trust me, school is already doing a tonne of work, not least because they teach the kids how to mediate their feelings through language. I can definitely see that being moved closer to the centre of the curriculum as a primary goal, but right now, it's definitely happening through various activities, reading and storytelling, especially. But reading and interpersonal communication isn't being modelled at home, unless you count being on your phone. Online communication is fundamentally different because it lacks the face to face element and therefore any real accountability. Computer usage also wrecks sleep patterns and makes people more irritable. Kids nowadays just see their parents glued to their phones and screens, rather than paper media (that doesn't have an interactive comment section) and follow suit.
*hypergamy entered the chat*
Your argument is invalid.
Thank you for doing this podcast! As a woman, I've been wondering how someone like Andrew Tate has become so mainstream and this interview has answered many questions!
Wives cheat on husbands with guys like Andrew Tate.... That is another reason why men respect him.
I'm so sorry that you've been terrible informed here by two people with icnredible bias. There were little sprinkles of truth here and there, but then those were also twisted. You sadly didn't learn a thing.
I've listened to Tate and some of his messages are extremely problematic.
He's popular because his ideas have merit.
@@anonplussedhuman2615 No they're not.
Whats crazy is the more involved in these communities guys get, the less likely they are to have a healthy relationship, even if they dont become a threat to anyone.
There are comments here now from people so deep into their community that theyre using their own slang as if anyone outside their bubble has a clue what those words even mean.
@@GGoAwayy incels are one of the most insular communities on the web, and also probably one of the greatest causes of suicide in the west.
Well, if they don't become a threat to anyone, does it matter if they have a healthy relationship? Is that your responsibility? Just like people wasting away in jail, these people will either go round in circles with the dark paths they are following, or at some point find a way out. Maybe it's just a phase they're going through.
@@tomsmith6513 Responsibility? Isn't that just asking if we should care about other people? Im fine if thats everyones responsibility. Maybe it should be.
@@GGoAwayy I think it would be a waste of energy to worry about people who
1) aren't a threat to you
2) are over 18 years old and therefore adults
3) are probably capable of finding a way out of whatever "dark place" they are in (the ones who can't are just "losers" or mentally ill)
The communities these people form might be seen as a kind of "purgatory," a place of self-torment and self-punishment (whether they see it that way or not). People going through a dark phase in life often need to vent their frustrations somewhere.
Live your life. Let it be their problem.
Our greatest gift from the Dominion lawsuit was all the messages that became public. Thank you, Dominion!
Thank you so much for addressing this terrorism on woman. This is so heartbreaking because naturally and traditionally, men are our protectors, not the opposite. I wish in this society I wouldn't have to worry about getting home before dark
Thank you for this, Jon. Please have Laura again and also consider inviting Lundy Bancroft who has tremendous insight into this very important issue that affects everyone especially our children of all genders.
Jon. Love the show. Like every episode of offline I immediately run into my son’s bedroom and take his computer and phone away out of sheer anger that we’re letting this happen to our young men. I know he’s not falling down that rabbit hole but man am I worried about it every day. Great episode.
So long as your sons IQ is reasonable, he’s going to find out the truth about women one way or the other
@@HankWilliams-kp3io Be a low effort troll somewhere else.
I wouldn't necessarily take his phone and computer away but maybe regular sit downs to discuss it? Although it's great to have breaks away from the technology even if it needs to be forced
@@Khronogi I’m saying that’d be my knee jerk reaction, not my literal action. We’ve always communicated about these things and as dull and boring as I find it I’ve tried to keep up with his interests so as I’m informed about what’s happening. I think we’re doing okay.
@@HankWilliams-kp3io what’s ‘the truth about women’? I also find there is a correlation between people who constantly refer to IQ and an actual lack of intelligence. Hopefully that’s not ‘the truth about’ all Hank Williams’.
such an under discussed, yet important topic
39:48 I was friends with a few girls growing up. My older sisters (perhaps strangely) were the ones teasing me " ooooo... Billy's got a girlfriend" and the like. I was 6 and they were 8 & 9 and I remember saying to them "I don't have a girlfriend. I have a friend who is a girl." It still changed how I looked at things, though. I began to sometimes imagine motives in people's friendships. "They're only friends because" stuff. It made me wonder what women wanted when befriending me as well. I'm sure I missed out on some great friendships as a result.
It's a shame when older sibling or even adults tease and cajole young folk about having a "girl-friend" or a "boyfriend". It's often meant in fun, but it is just so unnecessary. Just let kids be kids.
Your sisters were children, so just perpetuating what they had seen others do. It’s up to’adults to be better.
Also, ingrained sexism IS a thing in women and girls (of course)
@@TheEmbrio yes, understanding and forgivness for the older sister, would you be as charitable if it was xy instead of xx?
A brutally revelatory and crucial discussion. Should be seen by all parents. Your guest has done incredible and brave work, and must be considered an important, groundbreaking expert in what will surely be a steadily growing area of social discourse.
Incels have an insular way of communicating, she didn't take the time to understand their insular way of communicating so she didn't create a reliable language model, William Costello is doing research on self-identified incels, and imo it's much higher quality work. I haven't paid any real attention to the 'manosphere' for a a very long time, but even I know that incels are black pilled, not red pilled. Red-pillers are pick up artists, black pillers are poison pilled, they're fatalist/cynics who don't try to make connections anymore. If she can't get that right how am I supposed to believe she understands them well enough to make an effective language model?
Wow. Thank you for having Laura Bates on. This is the first time I've heard her name. Between Laura Bates and Lovitt's take on the Budweiser Trans rep, my eyes are opening to my own language skills. Thank you for helping me make more fulfilling relationships with myself and my loved ones. Big fan of the pod.
I really like offline. It’s a great pod.
OK cook. C C C C V. You
I just want to point out how many young women are addicted to social media and phone use
Wow, as a UK older man I have noticed men that have gone through deviorce /seperation and the UK court system are bitter and hatfull but Wow, this is crazy didn.t know the young were also so jaded by their relationship experiences. it's so sad.
It's usually not just one.
My parents generation (maybe mine via reruns) grew up with the image of 1950s/60s/70s sitcoms to model what relationships are. That was our media, for good or bad. A lot of easy things to point out about how bad that was about gender roles and how white suburbia focused it all was.
But its a whole different game when you talk about the media kids now are being raised on. No sitcom made anyone think rape was okay. There is no barrier in place between kids and the most extreme pornography thats ever been made. It twists their worldview. It shapes HOW they have sex when they actually DO have sex. It shapes what they will say within their relationships, how they will view and interpret events and gestures. Its a completely twisted view of intimacy and love. Im afraid of how messed up their brains are and the idea theyll be in charge of the world when Im old and frail.
Shut up you can't even spell divorce now that's sad
Why wouldn't they because their wives decided they are not happy, OR those women secretly planned to divorce them all along just to take men's money and children from them? Either way, the state treats them worse than slaves. I can talk because I was married and am now divorced with no desire for a second go around. Men are treated like shit by women, and the state. That will be repaid, and it will not be good good for everyone. That is why MGTOW is expanding so quickly across the world.
As always, an excellent, worthwhile and critical conversation. It's crazy to sit here listening to this and have the realization,. that what probably angers the "radicalization-agents" the most is if we try to "stop it earlier" (engage with kids and younger ages to try to circumvent and prevent radicalization prior to it ever happening).. the reason that angers radicalization-agents is because it undercuts their goals. They WANT the radicalization (its the only thing that perpetuates the problem). Good on you for exposing that and helping people think about how to short circuit and stop this nonsense.
Why do you think they are working so hard to destroy public education? Extremists in this country want to have full control over how a child grows up, to the point they can be indoctrinated to do anything.
I mean if you can prove them wrong, sure. But there's enough good argument for a steelmanned version of the incel arguments to still preserve, and it makes you wonder, for example if mass female engagement in the workforce, certainly some male-coded or dominated ones, is a good idea.
@@Warsie Why don't you make the argument? I'm not even being facetious, I want to know what your argument would be
@@talltrini10 ITt's a general evopaych argument, I'm sure you're seen the studies showing men have a muchhigher willingness for random sex than women do (i.e. gay and lesbian sexual behavior beingh significantly different), genederd (well sexed) differences in interests whereas men generally prefer working with things, women with people, male and female friendships function significantly differently (men can work in large groups for a certain goal much easier than women, for example).
Incels talk about female sexual attraction working differntly than male sexual attraction, for example looks, wealth, etc. Given those online dating studies where women rate most men as below average as well as the fact that women value male wealth, even "independent" women who make lots of money, as shown by studires again, suggests this is niologically determined.
"Engage with kids"(lie to them)
Wow, this made me feel sick. I had no idea the extent of this problem. Thank you for sharing
Just remember y'all, it's because we are moving towards progress and making tangible change that there is increased backlash from the other side. That always gives me hope when I see terrible things like this going more mainstream.
Things are literally getting worse lol.
She means they’re making process in destroying things they view as evil; men, heterosexual people, Europeans, families, trees, wild animals etc.
What she doesn’t realise is that the goal in unsustainable, like a cancer killing its own host expecting the experience to last forever
@Honk Honk you're thinking too small-scale. Remember how after slavery was abolished in the US and black people actually started holding positions in government or accumulating wealth, but then politicians made Jim Crow laws to disenfranchise them and rid them of their new-found power? It's similar to what's happening in our current times. Because when real progress and power are given to marginalized folks in this country, those in positions in power will double down and find a way to hoard it even more. Yet despite the back and forth, overall we're moving in a more progressive and just direction.
Just think of how much societal and political attitudes have changed in the past 200 years in terms of visibility of lgbtq folks, expansions in voting rights, women advancing in education and the workplace, the civil rights act and non-discrimination laws. We still have a lot of problems, but in terms of social equality we are objectively in a better place than 200 years ago and that's something to be hopeful about.
@@HonkHonkler For whom and from what angle?
@@Khronogi for men. Since the 90’s men have been getting fucked in education way worse than women
Thank you Laura for doing the disturbing work of investigating these spaces and thank you Jon for the conversation! :)
Everyone has a different mental constitution that is being obscured by virtual spaces...a joke for one is a call of action for another, which is scary to say the least.
What's disturbing about people who are suffering?
don´t interesting what woman say,interest what woman doing.
I've read her book"Men who hate women" and it's a scary but necessary read..
An important thing is to propose example of healthy masculinity.. three online example that I can think of are the YT accounts "That Dang Dad", "Big Red Celt" or "Beau of the Fifth Column"..
Beau’s channel is fantastic 👏👏
@@menmykrazycat8129 Yes! Great at explaining stuff in a way that everybody can understand, wide variety of topics, a bit snarky sometimes but never mean and (for me) the perfect format (3 to 12 minutes videos)
The other two are "short" format, too (& worth checking, of course)
@@menmykrazycat8129 He did a video on this called Let's talk about what men can learn about masculinity from women....
Yes! The Speech Prof is a good one too. A tad bit snarky sometimes tho.
@@sonja4164 Intersting... will check this one... And keep the suggestions coming!!
Thank you so much. Wonderful information. So important.
6:32 You should have her explain how fighting against circumcision (int-activision) and for more fair child custody laws are anti-woman. What do women gain from the mutilation of baby boys aside from the foreskin in their cosmetic products?
It's mostly men in your family who tell you to circumcise a boy due to how it looks for their future. I've even heard to think about how the boy will feel in the locker room. Bad stuff.
I've been working in online spaces since about 2006 and none of these ideas are even remotely new. I remember a lot of the toxicity I would hear while playing online matchmaking-based games where you had the ability to talk to people on your team all over the world. That was really where I was first exposed to some of these ideas and this rhetoric. And I think for young boys who are into gaming, that's a really good place for these ideas to be introduced AND repeated inside a vacuum. And -women cannot be the people who fix this!!!-. We can't fix this, we're the ones who are being defined as not human. Change to eradicate misogyny HAS TO COME FROM MEN. Every single day, men just like you HAVE to be having these conversations with everybody all the time.
After SCOTUS released the Doobs decision, one of the exercises we started engaging in was asking men "How do you talk to other men about protecting access to abortion?" It was nearly impossible to get any man on any side to even care. Misogyny is so prevalent even on the left that so many people don't even see it as a problem.
So you think men are inferior and need to be kept down, but you don’t think women are capable of keeping them down and that only men have what it takes to destroy and oppress men. So how are they inferior ?
@@HankWilliams-kp3io She never said that.
But it’s the core belief of feminism.
@@HankWilliams-kp3io What is?
I'm 60, father of a girl and a boy. My son is now 17.
I teach my son every single day to:
1) Focused on him self, his studies, his future job, his career, his friends, his hobbies and make a lot of sport.
2) No short, medium or long term relationship with modern women.
3) No co-habitation with a woman or girl.
4) No marriage (NEVER).
5) No kids (NEVER).
6) No donate sperm (NEVER).
7) Sex? Only occasional sex provided by criminal feminism with sex liberation.
These are the rules that all father on this hearth have been teaching to their sons (male). So the problem that you wathced here is more and more an more and more and more and more big!!! It is the consequence of this criminal feminism. You NEVER talk about the mistake of feminism. "Femin-ism" for media and politics is a movement without guilt, WRONG!!! Everybidy nowadays has understood the "social engineering" experiment managed by feminism. It doesn't work, wrong direction. It is Over. MGTOW is all around Us.
What I teach to my dauther? The opposit!!!
Parents are failing.
The points about memes etc targeting young boys - I used to go to a nail tech who worked out of her house and her son (who I think is like 14-15 now) was on TikTok, and showed us both a video a friend had sent him that was a guy doing a voice over (to a Fortnite clip) going on about *feminists* who supposedly got these streamers to unalive themselves ON STREAM and bragged and celebrated about it etc. I was immediately horrified - as someone who has worked in games and esports - because I knew it was not true, but it's a very obvious (to me) tactic to try and convert the younger generation of gamers especially and those tuned in to social media into the incel radicalization. I wish I knew how to contact her still because I feel like this is a video she really would need to see.
And even if it did happen, to equate the issue to being feminist is ridiculous. People do asshole things.
Forums that allow their members to encourage rape and/or murder should be barred. Period. Men - Reach out and pull the guys you know who may be participating in this radicalization out of this. It endangers everyone.
1stly, yes it does endanger everyone. 2ndly, you're not fixing this by demanding men police men in a vigilante way. Incels LOVE being told they're wrong, backwards, evil. They HATE being told they deserve anything other than spite. They need real professionals to help them, they are mostly a danger to themselves, because it's a suicide cult, but suicides aren't good for anyone.
Thank you. The only way these lost guys are going to listen, is if it comes from a male. They hate women, so anything said to them by a woman will just go in the ear, out the other, and into the shredder. Men need to stand up against this!
That would be in violation of free speech, if you ask me. The same way as how it would be ridiculous to stop TV shows from showing off criminal behaviour. There are countless shows where murder is treated as justified in service of revenge, like John Wick, but those are not in danger of being barred, because of the writers' rights to free speech. There is also the fact that suppression of this sort usually just leads people to double down and feel vindicated as being on the revolutionary cutting-edge--- the logic is usually something like 'They cut my tongue out because they are afraid of what I might say.' They will usually just move to more obscure venues and develop more extremist views, even though their numbers may be smaller. What I think should happen instead is that such sites should be left alone generally, so that there's no illusion of 'silencing the revolutionaries' but should be made more difficult to reach for impressionable young people, basically, parents and guardians should take a bit more responsibility for what their kids look at, like with everything else.
The incel issue is not thought out and nuanced enough when Laura Bates talks. This woman fails to take into account her own privelige, social class and elitism. This woman wasnt born in and raised in government housing or as us Brits would call a council estate. Men have always had to compete for women and women rarely date down. The internet has made women have a plethora of options in which most of them compete for the most attractive and highest status male they can. I agree that there are incel forums out there that are toxic. But then feminists like Laura Bates then criticise men who get into pick up and mens dating coaches and seem to think it is all a scripted routine when it isnt, it is about confidence and being able to be comfortable around women and feel as though you are attractive and good enough. Most women have the luxury of not having to approach men and when they are in their.20s especially, they are more desirable and fertile so they have their pick. Men must have confidence and status to attract women whilst women need less of that. This women will probably hang around and date people of her own social class and status, for her she has.already broken the glass ceiling.
MENTORS AND ROLE MODELS for young men are so important! Boys seeing men treating women well, having good, heslthy, respectful relationships with them (both romantic and platonic) has the biggest impact IMO. And calling out other men, in the moment, when they do shitty misogynistic shit is paramount. Dont tolerate off color jokes in the workplace, dont laugh at them, dont ogle women at every opportunity, and you will soon hold a space where everyone else around you is doing the same.
Never in your conversation did you talk about parental modeling. When kids see a healthy relationship between their parents, much is gained.
laura's research is very flawed, her methodology can/has been called into question.
That's a problem that has been around since time immemorial. But without good parents then life will be very difficult.
This was a great episode, on a really important topic. This is a huge issue, I just wish more men talked about this. I'm sure a lot do, but they don't really have the same type of following as Tate or Peterson. In almost every case, in mass shootings, the gunman has horrible misogynistic views. And this is worldwide, not just the US.
So, back in collage my friends and I were all below 6 ft, having hard time building muscle despite going to gym 5 daya a week. Also hard time not gaining fat. Due to that we were invisible to girls. We were all smart, hard working guys with good sense of humor. But we were not what girls were looking for. Many of my friends were stuck in friendzones, some are still virgins in their 40s. So I am not surprised that many of them grew to be bitter and hate women.
Wow - this is heartbreaking… and a mental health emergency
False allegations are real
I had a false allegation of sexual harassment made against me because I asked a subordinate to do her job (I did it 100% correct, didn't raise my voice or swear or anything, they had no reason to accuse me of anything so dont go there); she just made up a conversation that never happened
I know three other men who have had false allegations made against them, one was viciously attacked by his wife multiple times but he was arrested for assault (she literally surprised him and tried to literally kill him multiple times)
And two who were accused of sexual assault, one was saved by one of her friends who came forward and said she confided in her that she would make up the assault to get back at him for loving and leaving her; the other was saved because when cops asked simple details about his house she had no idea, just made up details (for example there was no bedroom on the first floor, no bed there either, and no floral sheets in the house at all)
And this is why my kids will not be getting personal devices that are internet enabled until they're THIRTY!! Okay, maybe more like 13 or 14 with extreme parent monitoring.
Monitor them. But don't be afraid to talk with them at their level and provide solid advice. Remember, it's a hallmark of intelligence to entertain an idea without succumbing to it.
Soooooo many buzz words.... This conversation is just a continuance of the popular disregard for people in favor of ideology. A woman explaining men is like a man explaining women, the smart ones don't even try. Also how did this become a anti right political conversation? Keep your boys away from these people. Coming in, I thought I found real subject matter. how disappointing.
Best offline episode yet. Terrifying- but really necessary ❤
Does Andrew Tate fall into any/all of these categories?
No
Yes ✅
Just wanted to comment to thank you both for doing this. I think we on the left are so used to concerns about porn being the hysterical anti sex rhetoric of the right that a lot of people have missed the algorithm rabbit hole that has infected that space as much as social media. The click economy has driven the rise of more and more extreme porn that simulates violence and humiliation rather than enjoyment. It's something our side needs to pay more attention to as part of this rising problem of violent misogyny. We need lawmakers who both understand the unique threats of the digital age but aren't hysterical reactionaries who see no difference between healthy expression and the really damaging stuff propagating freely out there among our kids.
The problem is that much of this is based on a kernel of truth which gives it validity. Family court is heavily swayed away from equity, colleges have virtually given up on recruiting males, sites like female dating strategies that tell women ways to milk men out of money and/or exploitation. These stories are true and known and instead of outrage these young men see “get your bag” when if there was equity they would be met with disdain.
There are simple solutions to each "kernal of truth" you raised...
1. Family court is not swayed to either gender. Men don't ask for sole custody, but on the off chance they do, they are overwhelmingly granted it.
2. Many men/boys are invested in the rhetoric that college is waste a time. That's a them problem. College recruitment is a matter that starts in high school. No one can force students to value it enough to apply--there's a thing called intrinsic motivation at play too.
3. Dating: men simply shouldn't date women whose values don't align with theirs.
The answer is not to spend hundreds of hours online in echo chambers with racists, misogynistic men or excuse it away because some men are struggling with rapid changes in society.
@Mr. M
Ok, you're right. Stay online in the Mansophere and hopefully you get all the answers you're looking for. Not arguing about this.
✌
@@TijuanaK 👏
You understand very few people are actually recruited to a college ? Right? See the way college works for 98% of people is you apply, they dont find you. The vast majority of people "recruited" to college are students athletes. I'll let you figure out on your own how many of them are men.
My suggestion to you little man, if stop blaming everyone else for your own short comings. If you spent half the time you spend "researching" how women are holding you down on actually fixing yourself you would have a woman, a good job, and some happiness.
Remember this, these people on UA-cam get money from you clicking on their videos. If you are happy, you will no longer click on their videos. They have a literal monetary benefit of keeping you unhappy. It's basically tim Pools business plan.
@@TijuanaKyour first claim I assume is based on the Massachusetts study which is hardly a reflection of the rest of america. It also reflects data that implies a majority of joint custody not sole custody. The percentage of joint custody between men and women is skewed towards women. On average 65-70% of custody time. Your second point is a subjective opinion of college. Not everyone thrives in college environments or benefits from their experiences especially in their future careers on average. Imagine you spend thousands of dollars that you don’t have and 4 years or more of your life studying for a degree in something that has an extremely saturated job market and very little practical skills outside of your field of study, how do you expect someone who now can’t find a job, is now heavily in debt, and now doesn’t even use their degree to value the traditional college experience? I’m seeing this right now with my roommate who is struggling hard to find a job in her field that sticks longer than 6 months out of college. And not for a lack of trying or working hard. If the point of college is to find a path to be successful, make money, further your education, and lead a fulfilling life why is no one talking about our trades that pay extraordinarily well, are often cheaper and take less time to complete, and are often better suited towards those who don’t fit in the traditional college track. I hate the attitude that oh that path is for the less intelligent or less driven. No it’s because their skills and interests are different, it’s not a reflection of their intelligence or their indoctrination in some belief system. It’s often the smartest choice over the traditional college track. Our trades are always hiring these days and they pay handsomely for hard intelligent workers. They deserve more of our respect.
This is why I changed my Twitter profile from a picture of myself to a picture of my dog. Before I did that, I was being sexually harassed, being personally attacked because of my looks, called tons of names…all from incels. If I dare say anything about Andrew Tate, I’d be roasted relentlessly from these basement dwellers. It’s been much more calm since the pfp change, although some people try and make fun of my dog.
Haters & freaks who just love being angry about anything & everything. Cute doggo btw! 🙂☮️
Don't even post pictures of your Dog. I don't post ANY pictures of myself or anyone else I know on Social Media. I browse the Web like I did in the 2000's (+ Security in mind): DO NOT post information about yourself on Social Media. At all.
They aren't basement dwellers
@@adamturner3797 You’re right, sorry, they’re cellar dwellers.
@@michelebella677 nope not cellar dwellers at all. They are human like others
Thanks for having a guest who discusses the questions that surface daily about young American males. One of my best friends from science class, Robert stopped visiting after my grandmother asked where this gentleman was from."We're 8 He's not a man. And he's from science!" I thought her concerns were hilarious. But I did.wonder about his disappearance
An observation about dating and fear- men are afraid of being laughed at & women are afraid of being killed.
that's not a observation it's repeating an often used quote
An informative and eye opening interview. Thanks
How is this an interview? The host is just being a fan of the interviewee. The incel world is problematic but the complete dismissal of men's issues is the reason why the manosphere exists and grows. This has been an imbalanced one-directed propaganda.
'The people who tend to be drawn to extremism are men'
Sure buddy. You mean 'the people who disagree with your hot takes tend to be men bc your hot takes tend to attack men'
Or, possibly you mean 'people who tend towards the extremist views associated with men, are men' which is duh.
Or you mean 'the main group of people i tend to acknowledge as extremists and attack are men.'
The main problem with this crowd is their inability to understand just how extremist and out there in la la land huge swaths of people think they are.
Like, i listen to the hot takes from this crowd, its always logically flawed, predicated on self-referential data, lacks any self-critical thought of historical analysis, typically obviously politically motivated and fails to understand or even remotely acknowledge that they could possibly be wrong.
Its pretty sad.
No, not a manosphere type either.
I don't get how or why 'incels' became synonymous with misogynistic terrorists instead of just guys unable to get into relationships with women. They don't deserve the hate coming their way. You see it here in comments as well.
It's dehumanizing.
IKR, that's their concept of 'reaching out' to them. It reminds me of church missionary work in colonial holdings, they have nothing but disdain for the people they want to work with and they DEMAND ideological subordination.
It's like when a bird kicks the struggling hatchling out the nest. It's just nature
@@theragoooverlord5021 What is ?
@@jjoohhhnn Well they are failing as the numbers of 'incels' keeps growing ! I think in gen Z men it's a whopping one third. To me it reflects the flawed way we have structured society. Naturally women are inclined to form harams with a small number of high status men.
The reason societies created all these rules around monogamy was exactly to prevent this situation from developing.
@@rolandxor179 female behaviour. That's why a lot of rejection happens with the incel community paying the price. It's the same principle as mentioned earlier. Their instinct is survival of the fittest. Men are brainwashed by equality, being decent and all those lies
This is academically brilliant.
Thank you. Watching from Alaska.
It may sound ridiculous, but I think self service would solve a lot of sexual issues. If you can learn how to pleasure yourself, you aren’t desperate for someone else to satisfy your needs.
Legalize and regulate prostitution. I think that would solve some of this.
But what so many of these boys are lacking is an intimate relationship and the freedom to be loved while being themselves. The opposite of what this ridiculous "alpha male" BS keeps going on about to sell them so much "how to be a better man" merchandise.
@Mr. M "sadly?" When did fapping go from a normal thing that humans do to something that is "sadly" done?
that's not the issue with incels. it's untreated, usually undiagnosed mental illness.
Pretty sure these people are self servicing themselves all the time to the worst of online porn. In my opinion they need some kind of thing to help them snap out of it.