Klipschorn Part 2 - How they sound on tube amps
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- Опубліковано 15 жов 2024
- Part 2 of my review of the Klipschorn, but I switched to using tube power after listening to it all week on solid state. This set is from 1982 and has had some Crites upgrades with new tweeters and caps to the crossover.
The gear for this review are as follows:
McIntosh MC75 amplifier
GAS Thalia preamp
Marantz SA8003 CD player
Apple iPod
I am a long time collector of vintage stereo gear like receivers, speakers, amps, turntables and cassette decks from brands like McIntosh, Sansui, Pioneer, Yamaha, Klipsch, JBL, Marantz and many others. Be sure to subscribe so as not to miss future videos.
Video Link: • Klipschorn Part 2 - Ho...
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I use a Willsenton R-8 with NOS tubes on my LaScala. The LaScala use the same drivers as K-horns. I did replaced the tweeters and crossovers with Crites. It sound absolutely fantastic. The R-8 with 6550 tubes is way more dynamic than an older Mac. Don’t give up on tubes. If you do go solid state McIntosh solid state is my second favorite amp to use. I like it even better than my higher end Luxman. Klipsch needs a little calming down but just a little. I also liked using my vintage Marantz 2238B. Once again a little warmer vintage sound work good.
Thanks Philip! Not giving up on the tubes, but going to keep them setup for some more listening sessions.
I really like these comparisons. I recently got some Altec Valencia that I run with an Accuphase E202 or my old HH Scott 340B. I too noticed the Tube receiver was not as bright but I was surprised that the difference was not that huge. The Accuphase was fully refurbished moreover. The difference was more noticeable when the music had more holographic sound or more complexity in the high end.
Thanks Nico!
I like both videos on the Klipschorns. I have Heresy 1s from 1979 with all original drivers. I dont feel the need to do the titanium tweeter upgrade as I think mine sounds good as is. I did do the cap upgrade but really didn't notice a huge change. I too have tried both tube and solid state with both sounding good. The tubes had a warmer more detailed sound but I think it is just the difference between two amps. To me it just shows that Klipsch like some amps better than others and that match up has to be right.
Perhaps another good thing to also have tried, would have been a nice tube integrated amp which has a treble control. Turning the treble up to where it sounds as crisp as with the solid state amp, and make some judgements from there, with the treble being volume adjusted, like you'd volume adjust when comparing two different speakers with different efficiencies. Does the preamp you used have a treble control? All the Marantz cd players I've used have been polite sounding, including in the high frequencies. I don't remember; were you ising the same source as last time?
Interesting that the sound was more pinpoint with tubes. Something with more upper midrange usually sounds more focused. Was there more depth with tubes, or does a near wall placement pretty much curtail any depth. With regular speakers the more you move them away from the wall behind them; the better the depth usually. Was the sound more open and expansive with the tube amp? You say it wasn't as wide. Was it taller?
Order some replacement crossovers from Bob Crites. I use a Mc C-52 modern preamp, with a pair of MC-30s. Magic. Also, you need to have your K-horns in corners or build some. Makes all the difference in the world. .... Or use a sub. However, when in the right situation, no sub is needed at all.
I suggest a less than 5 watt per channel tube amp of high quality, such as Decware with Cryotone tubes. There are lots of options. 300B tube amps are good choices. If you want better sounding speakers, get a better amplifier.
Really surprised with the tube results. The Crites components must make a significant change. Tube McIntosh and Klipsch are highly touted.
I am right there with you. This was not at all what I expected, but I am going to leave the tube setup in place and do some more swapping around and testing.
Nice and kind of surprise outcome, so i guess your reference/favourite amp is the mc2105?
Correct, the 2105 is my reference amp. I was equally surprised, but in retrospect, I think moreso the Klipschorns just need a room that can better accommodate their setup requirements.
that's true they are designed to be in corners. anyway as a mcintosh owner happy to hear you like the mcintosh sound while having tested so many great amps there@@stereoniche
Hi there, first I would like to thank your for you videos, I watch them often, however I fail to find any useful purpose to this particular post. You have modified speakers in an unoptimized envionvernment, the Klipsch Horns need great care and knowledge for the proper placement in a particular room environment, and you are comparing what? Tubes to Transistors or the new Capacitors in the crossovers, or new tweeters ? My advice would be to place them in a proper room environment set up correctly, by yourself or a professional, then add your chosen electronics for comparison. The Klipsch Horns are a legendary speaker system. I apologize for my rant. :_)
Hi JayR, thanks for chiming in. The Part 2 is really just an addendum to part I, so it was not intended to be a full review. The one thing we certainly learned here in this two part series is the the Klipschorn very much needs its own well designed room to work as intended. And that, sadly, is not at all a good quality for any speaker in this day and age when the vast majority of consumers want ease of use (and setup). Of course, that is why it scored so low on my style category. Always appreciate the feedback, stay tuned, the next video is going to be exciting.
What's a "professional" going to do with setup?
I am enjoying your videos, thanks. If I could ask one thing. Please cut the volume level on the intro sound clip and especially the ending sound clip. It is jarring. I'm looking forward to more videos. Thanks
Hey Scott! Thanks so much for watching. You are right on the volume for the intro/outro vids. It took me a while to figure out how to lower the volume, but let me know if the more recent videos are better.
@@stereoniche Okay, I will check some newer reviews out and let you know soon. Thanks
@stereoniche I checked the Technics SA800 video, and it is a little better. Maybe a bit lower volume would make for a smoother transition. Thanks for the videos.
@@scottbennett3119 Thanks Scott. Interestingly, I had reduced the volume by 75% for that video for the Intro/Outro sections. I will reduce even further.
@stereoniche I admit that I am often laying down watching your videos. I have to lay down a lot. In order not to disturb others, I keep the volume lower, that`s why volume differences are more noticeable to me. The Technics video was very smooth and seemed about right in volume transition. Thank you for considering my concerns about this. That`s very cool!
While I understand manufacturers needing to make a product profitable, for the life of me I do not understand why speakers such as Klipschorn's needing "upgrades". Why wouldn't the factory drivers and crossovers be made of sufficient quality?
I am sure the original engineer felt the quality was there, perhaps that was the best that could be made at the time and only later were better materials available to make upgrades possible. Often times though, the manufacturer has little incentive to offer parts upgrades, better for them to have the consumer buy an all new Upgraded model.
@@stereoniche How can you be "sure" about this? As soon as Danny Rich gets his hands on any OEM speakers, he's tearing them down and apart. Likewise, the allegedly lousy power cords and interconnects. Nah, smells like a rat.
Are the speakers in corners?
HI there, a full description is in the first video here: ua-cam.com/video/OWYGp11KdTo/v-deo.html
A DSPed time aligned fully active crossed over Klipschorn trumps anything else out there except, a Jubilee or a DSPed Lascala+matching subwoofer.
plus what I don't like is the klipschorn bass from the folded horn sounds like its coming from a cupboard, echoee, while the lascala has only one fold.
Also, it does not make any presentation sense having frequencies in the 200-500 Hertz coming from the behind the speakers, bouncing of the wall ( yes yes I know its the design ) and the mid horn coming in at 400Hz, directed at you, also that ancient k-400 horn has a pipe'ish signature at low frequencies, and a snarky bark bite at the higher frequencies can only be tamed with a DSP but better upgrade. I have since upgraded to better horns and drivers.
Yes, one should eq it a bit before doing anything else. I hooked up to a modern Yamaha (or other make) receiver which can do para eq. automatically. It helped tame my EV35's tremendously. It reduces the 8khz bump and increases the 16 khz output and helped tame the bumpiness in my tractrix horn in front of my Audax 6.5 inch midrange driver.
@@keithwiebe1787 I Ended up finding "unobtanium" EAW MR-102 Horn,
its got a 12" 100db (prior to horn loading) efficient RCF mid frequencies specific driver with very high BL low excursion, and its horn loaded so ~106db ish,
it does the magical 175hz to 1200hz with ease (though I cross it at 1500hz at 48db slopes, not possible with a passive cross)
so that removes the problem klipshhorn bass bin duty from 175 and up, and I should really replace the bins with a lascala or any bass bin horn capable of 50-200,
now, as the bass is handled from 50hz and lower by DanleySoundLabs DTS-10 tapped horn ( a 300lbs beast).
The tweeters are now a FaitalPro 2" HF200 on a JBL horn.
originally this was an active 2 way, because with a DSP you can force the bin and the compression driver to match crossover at 500hz, (aka poor man's jubilee)and fix up khorn bin dips.
but still a 3 way (or 4 when you count the sub work much better).
The DSP makes the sound gel together as one "bubble " at the listening spot because the time of arrival is matched, recommend doing this on stock klipschorns.
from measurements and subjective listening, it is "unfair" to ask any compression horn to do high SPL from say 700hz and lower, it sounds stressfull and horn'ish, this applies to k400-k55 as well as the 2" HF200, thought I have not yet tried a few of the mid frequency 2" compression drivers that are available, (too expensive).
So the EAW MR-102 is a total game changer.
If I read correctly, the new klipschorn Jubily uses a special 7" compression driver, which proves my point about 2" (or k-55 1") doing mid frequency duty.
@@xprcloudYamaaha 6681 b or GOTO for the 2” ers. Also had good luck with transylvania tubes on TAD 2001 for tweets, physical time align.
Yes , folded horns have tunnel bass, nothings perfect.
And that is why you don't screw around with Paul Klipsch's creations.
One thing wrong with this video. It needed to be a bit longer! All right, I'm serious this time, if you need a kidney, I will trade you for those speakers!
LOL, well, if I ever need a kidney, at least I know where to get one!
FYI - If you have not Ripped your own CDs... Every file that Ive ever played from peoples Ipod library... were very Low Quality / Low Dynamics. Despite being much larger file sized... they were Crap, compared to most of my lower resolution MP3s. It appears they were highly Compressing the original audio, and then converting the compressed audio into high bit rate files. Of course... if you have already stripped out the Dynamics by crushing the audio... then it doesnt matter how high of a bitrate you set the new file to.
I highly suggest you test your equipment from Original CDs, not Ipod files. Furthermore... I also suggest using Originals.. over "Re-Masters" in most every case... because every ReMaster that Ive ever compared, is Infinitely worse than the Original CD versions. This opinion might only change in some of the very dated recordings (pre 70s), where the Mics / Recordings were often not very good.
Furthermore... Most of the Compression started in the 90s. My first stomach turning experience with it... was purchase of Van Halen's "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge" CD. It sounds like utter distorted TRASH compared to ANY of their Former CDs. Not the Good type of distortion, either. This is when the Eco-Nazzi's took over the Industry, and started compressing all recordings... to try to save a few watts worth of Amp power, at the consumer level. I stopped buying CDs, shortly after this point. I would almost always just purchase pre 90s era CDs... especially those that had AAD, instead of DDD, marked on the CD case.
Of course, you could also play a DVD, or Bluray to test speakers as well. Many of my older DVDs have fantastic dynamics. You can crank them until the speakers are nearly about to blow... and there isnt even a HINT of distortion (with good speakers, capable of that... of course).
The levels of Compression started out at medium (noticeable) levels... and got worse and worse, each progressing year.
When the Studios were caught and called out by the Public... Due to their favorite video game "Rock Band" , having the same audio tracks but with higher quality... The Studios blamed it on "Loudness Wars". This was a way to hide the TRUE reason for compression... of which they were not willing to Reveal to the public (still arnt).
In fact, it was the late 80s, when speaker mfgs. started to cheap out on things. They started using lighter + thinner boxes... and used woofers that had weaker magnets + weaker voice coils.. and rather than using Sealed speakers... they created the tuned "Port" which both allowed the use of these weaker woofers... as well as allowed for an overall "Louder" potential for the speaker. Of course, it provided a power savings cost... But it also came with a great Cost: INFERIOR sound quality Reproduction.
Those weaker magnets + weaker coils = Slower Acceleration, and much less Control. Thus, less accuracy... which equates to notable Distortions (such as music and vocal details.. muddying together, in distorted losses).
Someone famous whom used to work in the Speaker and AMP designing industry.. actually admitted to this stuff, in a long interview, on youtube. I wish I had saved it, as proof, that I could easily link to.
So, being Efficient, isnt really beneficial to high fidelity music reproduction. I had a modern 90s era pair of Techniques 12" 3-ways, capable of 200 watts per speaker. They sounded like absolute GARBAGE, compared to my 1970s era EPI 100v speakers... which are almost half the size, and use only 8 inch woofers. Despite them not being as loud as my Techs... they sounded 1000x better... and I didnt miss the additional volume boost at all... because the music was so much better sounding, that I didnt even care. Dont get me wrong.. the EPIs are plenty loud enough to get the Cops called on you... if you blast them in your apartment. They just were not as loud as the Techs. That said... the low end Bass on the EPIs, destroyed the Techs.. despite having smaller diameter drivers. Of course, the EPIs magnets were like 3x as large. A single EPI woofer, weighted more than both of my Techs woofers combined.
Great info John! Rest assured, my critical listening was on CD. All I have on the iPod are some test tracks I use for each speaker. After that, it is all CD.
The metal horns do a cruel disservice to the sound. So much resonance, color and shout.
iPod and iPhones with Apple Music is crap . Qobuz with a good dac u won’t be disappointed
Thanks Bo!
@StereoNiche u get a free trial with qobuz ,,download a few of ur faves from the 70s I was blown away
I WOULD PREFER TO HEAR the speakers, not the words.... thanks!
Thanks for stopping by.
А включить слабо!? Can't you switch it on?