I’m running two tube amps so I have a passive Pyle Mini Hum Eliminator in my pedal chain to get rid of the 60 cycle hum. I do have a Polytune pedal first in my chain and it has a buffer. Any thoughts on if my hum eliminator is draining tone? After watching another Vertex Effects video on pedal boards, I think I need to add another buffer at the end of the chain. Thanks
Hey Mason and Vertex my name is Rocky and I know you'll probably not read this but I'll give it my best shot I recently lost all of my gear and guitars they were stolen from me and to compound the problem I lost my mom shortly after now that I'm all alone I'm financially unable to even get a cheap guitar or kit into my hands. My friends and family they're just not able to help so I came to the UA-cam guitar community I guess hoping for some charity or miracle it was a pipe dream I know but I'll put my pride aside I've played for 16 years and to not lose that I would beg if I had to many of the UA-camrs commented and told me that it sucked that I had lost my gear & guitars but, none was willing to help me and with that I have to give up playing after 16 years. Mason the reason I'm telling you this is I have to unsubscribe from Vertex and your channel man please don't be upset with me or offended it's not you or your content it's just like you know being at a smorgasbord and not being able to eat it just tears me up too bad I love your Dumble style pedals and stuff I was hoping to God I was going to be able to get my hands on some of those but, I lost everything and my playing to a thief that's life and unfortunately life isn't always charity Mason take care of yourself once again please don't be upset that I have to unsubscribe I do respect you and Vertex for everything and fir keeping my hopes up while I tried to get something to pan out man take care of yourself Mason I wish Vertex the absolute best and success your fan, Rocky Henson
Ive been using my Tc Polytune first in chain, before my EB jr passive, in hopes that it would sort that tone sucking. Then i switch to plug the tuner into the EBall Tuner output. Now you teaching me i was better off like i was before. I Do have a digitech synth wah after the volume pedal, hoping it buffers it also. But maybe i m wrong. Great tips at the end. Very interesting kits. I run a 15 pedalboard with some TrueBP and Buffered ones. New pedals, and vintage pedals. So there must be some tone sucking for sure. Maybe i should put my EBall after the digitech and any other digital pedal as i tought all digital pedals have buffers on them. I probably will get a switchable looper. And your video on explaining looper and program. Loopers were really helpful. Just recently discovered this brand and channel and it looks very very promising. Keep up the great work, looking forward to hear more from Vertex fx. Ps: i am experiencing a strange behaviout on my wah...i changed its pot. the pedal worked for a week, No problem. Now, the pedal when engaged is silent (its TBypass)...but if I take it out of the pedalboard and and just plug it alone, it works fine. I am in the studio doing reamps for an album i am about to finish and need to solve this issue. If you have any idea of what it might be and can shed some light i would be much appreciated.
Awesome, thank you! If your TC Tuner has the buffer make sure that's engaged before the volume pedal. I think it's always a good idea to have high quality buffers first and last no matter what.
@@VertexEffectsInc unfortunately it is the previous version of the Polytune. I dont think it has a buffer. I am a newb so, my tought was that every digital pedal i have (if doesnt have a choice between true bp vs bufferbp like the DL4 line6) it should buffer the signal. Yesterday i compared the combo of having the tuner on the out of the Eball Vol versus having the tuner has my first in chain pedal. The difference was really subtle and it seemed more in amplitude that in high frew roll off. But yes good tip there! Thank you. Buffer as a exterior pedal i never tought much about but you make it reconsiderable.
@@sun6moon9 it's a foundational piece that is really critical that most people overlook when spending big money on pedals. We have a few cheaper recommendations like the Truetone Buffer which is only $50, you'd need two but it's still great.
I know full well you've made another video about the same subject. I've got the material memorized. I care for my board and can make it better with your knowledge. I keep watching again and again and again. You're never boring behind that camera! Thanks.
I used to think buffers were bad not knowing that all true bypass makes for giant ball of sucked tone. Now I like to have buffers especially on the “ends” before going in or out of the amp/long cables. This is a great lesson everyone should learn. Can’t wait
Buffer quality matters...a buffer alone, just any old buffer, won't be the same as another. High quality input buffer and output buffer is key and they need to be the right spec! 1M input impedance, 100 ohm output impedance.
Saw this tonight…I had only 3 pedals hooked up. One was the fuzz first which is true bypass, then a Jekyl and Hyde V1 and then a old DOD pedal last. When I removed the old DOD pedal which is buffered…my tone came back less muffled. I cleaned up this pedal and it sounded broke before. Got it in good shape, but it just takes off some of the clarity when off. I’m going to clean it up again and possibly put it first after my fuzz. Although it is a plexi drive type pedal. Not my preference to put a high gain pedal earlier before my OD. But it’s worth a shot! I don’t use it much but it’s there if I play something heavy. Honestly I think it may have some issues, as the light is still on even when you turn it off. So something is def up!
Recently I've been going: Suhr-Strat (Lollar pickups) > 10 foot Mogami-gold > 65 Princeton Reverb = phenomenal tone. I have an elaborate pedalboard, with high quality "everything" - but it's just Not the Same. It's close, . . . but there's something magical about plugging-it-straight-in.
I’m at the point where I watch all of your videos, whether I actually think the subject is “for me”. I just learn so much every time that I can click on one of your vids with confidence that I will take something away from it. So thank you.
Just took my maxon phase tone reissue off the board and I am amazed at the improved brightness!! Incredible. Asking you tube why, led me to this explanatory video. ❤🎸
My biggest culprit has been bad/cheap/high capacitance patch cables. Mason, I owe you a huge debt of gratitude for showing me the way with mogami 2314 and sp400. Thank you!!
During my internship at a recording studio, we troubleshot a guitarist’s rig : guitar direct into his amp sounded amazing but plugging his pedalboard made ALL of his high end disappear, like putting a low-pass at 1-2kHz Turns out it was one of those cheap patch cables with molded connectors that was the culprit. Felt especially bad since the guitarist had a great setup with vintage amp/guitar and cool pedals, and toured the world with it, only to be ruined by a single cable haha When I came home that night I threw away all my cheap cables and invested in good ones lol
Now a good buffer might have eliminated a lot of that, but still good cables matter. Check out our patch cable shootout and see how the buffer impacts the overall tone and normalizes cables pretty well between the cheap and high end versions.
Even though Jimi Hendrix didn’t have true bypass pedals, everyone at Woodstock still had a good time lol! One big thing that affects tone suck, is never practicing your actual playing and relying on pedals to sound awesome lol!
My man 😍 I’m learning more about how much I don’t know about my music gear in binge watching your videos today than I have in all my years of owning music gear and just playing around. Can I buy you a beer?!
Great video! How can I measure the capacitance of my instrument cables? I spent quite a bit on them (worried I spent more on the brand name than anything else) but I can't find any specs on them online. Thanks again!
I run an always on compressor at the beginning of my chain just after the wah and an always on EQ (both true bypass) at the end of the chain for my buffering needs. You can't get any more "bufferlicious" than an always on pedal. The comp and EQ arrangement works perfectly for me.
Your Videos are like PedalPorn to me, i always learn new things here,most valuable Chanell on the planet! maybe a "Tone suck" case would be dirt or corroded patch,instrument cables and pedals. Deoxit d5 for the win and maybe deoxit g5 gold for gold plugs. Cheers!
Great video and great subject, I recently purchased a pure tone buffer and it made a huge difference in my tone. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. 🙏🙏🙏🙏
This is great info Mason! Thanks for putting this together. Always thought about what impact stringing a bunch of pedals together does to the signal. This really helps.
The Intermediate tone sucking happens on phaser pedals and Univibes which will Fatten up your tone because its still running your audio signal through the phaser pedal or univibe while its turned off. David Gilmour live Pompeii 71 used a volume pedal so this would give him a darker tone put his vox wah is intermediate tone sucking also. Most pedals that used a SPDT switch all were Intermediate tone sucking. In the 80's people used the Boss PSM-5 RED pedal to turn off all there guitar pedals. The Boss PSM-5 has buffers and Fet switching. Have you look at the schematic of this pedal and the tone sucking?
I had a Behringher DD400 digital delay pedal that was the biggest tone sucker ever. Once I removed it from my signal chain I realized how it was lowering my volume and taking away some high end. Since then I avoid cheap pedals that probably have bad components (it may be the 6th cause for tone suck I guess haha).
I'm not saying the advice is bad (I'm definitely going to double check that I'm following these!) But I think the Ernie Ball MVP pedal you show at 1:34 is actually active.
One of go to pedals is the Digi-tech digidelay, all of my X-series and many dirt pedals of that era have 1meg input and 209hm output buffers. I have used them plugged in but not turned on to condition dinars in my sound design work. Piezo contact mics ideally want about 4meg to stop tone suck. 1meg goes a lot further in retaining the bass frequency response than many other modern low impedance devices.
Excellent video on a topic where there seems to be a lot of confusion. Though not technically "tone suck" in terms of capacitive or resistive loading, your video reminded me of when Dave Phillips from LA Sound Design asked why I wired Doyle Bramhall II's Zoink with a grounded input when in bypass. Dave mentioned he didn't notice any additional noise without the grounded input on my full size Zonk Machine clone. One thing some don't consider in terms of "tone suck" in true bypass pedals is grounding the input of of the circuit when in bypass mode. Although your guitar's signal is not technically seeing the circuit when bypassed, the circuit is still energized when bypassed and can induce noise in the bypassed signal wires within the enclosure. This is especially true with high gain (fuzz) circuits when everything is in close proximity in a small pedal board friendly enclosure. In the case of circuits with oscillators, grounding the oscillator when bypassed eliminates any chance of induced tick in your bypassed signal. Though relatively rare the bypassed signal will have noise induced on it, it CAN and does happen. When it does, it can be a real wild goose chase to track down if you don't know where to look. Grounding the input of a high gain circuit when in bypass eliminates or at least mitigates induced noise on your bypassed signal. Grounding an oscillator in bypass always eliminates any chance of induced tick in your bypassed signal.
There are several ways to do true bypass, the BEST of which grounds or shorts the circuit when in bypass so you don't get any risk of oscillation when the pedal is off. Often when I did build pedalboards for hire, I would convert pedals to this standard unless they were in a switcher. Yes, high gain circuits are more susceptible to this issue, also pedals that have internal clocks as well: chorus, phaser, flangers, to name a few - are also susceptible to this. We have another video that mentions this...not sure what the title was we've made so many, but basically something along the lines of "not all true bypass is created equally". Thanks for watching and for the comment.
How you doing Mason? These videos are such a great resource for guitarists. Very much appreciated. I'm using a GigRig G2 in a Wet Dry Wet rig. My instinct is to use 3 Mesa Dual Buffers... - T
The G2 has its own buffers. I don't like the output impedance of them but the input buffers should be fine. I would just use a separate output buffer or at least experiment with it to see if you notice an improvement.
If you use a pedal pre-amp (bass) with XLR straight to FoH, would you still use an output buffer (say, between the last fx pedal and the pre-amp) or just an input buffer at the start of pedal board?
Thanks for the great info!....I start my pedal board S Chain with a BSS Audio AR-133 active DI-box. SO my FIRST QUESTION is: What is your opinion of the AR-133 as a buffer? Then the signal goes into a MORLEY 3 WAY SPLITTER ( I use a small yamaha mixer at the end were I mix my drum machine and drone textures, with at least three signals from my guitar that each ends into its own amp-cab modeler before they go into the mixer) SECOND QUESTION: I have experienced once the weird phenomenon of no signal coming out of the other two splitter outlets. How is that even possible? I have some more Q but will limit my questions to these two, for now at least. And will welcome any comments or suggestions on my set up... Thank you for your time.
Looks like 1M input (which is good for guitar), 600 ohm output (which is so-so). I would suspect that your splitter might have some issues with the outputs because the input signal is shared among them if it's a single input to three outputs. Could be the cables could be the jacks in the splitter, could be something else totally.
I've got a Creation Audio Labs buffer inside my custom tele with Lindy Fralin humbuckers! Absolutely love it, and I love how the signal quality stays intact with all the highs. And yes, I tried a treble bleed cap mod and it didn't work so well for me.
I have the Ernie Ball MVP volume pedal. When I got it, I was "WTF? it needs power? "Oh well, I've extra supply plugs since my pedal board is quite sparse." My tuner goes into the tuner output from the volume pedal... no tone suck at all. I'm a Tele player, love clean twang. I use your Steel String Clean Drive (it's heavenly). It just warms things up so nicely. The Clean drive turns the guitar's volume into a gain control, blatantly. For my clean Country twang, I'll back off the guitar's volume to 2/3rds, open up the volume pedal. For Blues with a bit of edge, I'll peg the guitar's volume, cut back on the volume pedal... the Clean driive, nearly full gain, delivers exactly what I'm looking for. It adds sustain across the board, clean or hairy. I'm wondering if this volume pedal has a buffer. I do use the Boss/Fender '63 Reverb... In this vid, you have it with pedals you said have built in buffers. Am I correct? Most of what you said in the vid goes way over my head tech wise.... I wanted to stop you many times and ask you to explain... but, I can't. My Tele has a 1meg volume pot, 250k tone... No tone suck at all. I can still peal paint with the bridge pup if I wanted to. When on the bridge pup, I ride the tone knob more than the volume at a gig.... Love your products... and your vids... Thanks.
Awesome video. Is it bad practice to position pedals based on how you use them, vs where they are in the signal chain if it means having a few long (12" - 18") patch cables instead of 3" cables?
I have a fairly simple pedal board setup on a pedal train classic 22 inch by 12.5 inch board. I'm running a dc-7 and crux for power. I've got a horizon precision drive to start the chain, that goes into an ISP decimator g-string 2, the guitar out goes into the front of the amplifier. My effects send goes into the ISP decimator, then out of the decimator and into a quad cortex which goes back onto the FX return of the 5150. My question is what do I set the input impedance on yhe quad cortex? I have been using 1m ohm but want to be sure im delecting the right level. For cabling, I am using the Ernie Ball flex flat cables for the pedal board, fx loop, and guitar. I essentially use the quad cortex as a guitar tuner along with a various amount of time-based effects, occasionally I will direct plug into the quad cortex and have that go into power amp and drive a cab
Orange or50.. guitar straight in awesome. Or50, crybaby, tu2, carbon copy... livable.. but as soon as I ad my mxr reverb, true bypass setting or buffered. My tone changes. Enough to annoy me that I wont use it. Think I need a loop switch.
Great video, thank you. So lets say you have a buffered looper and have all loops on. What does it do to the tone to have so many buffers on at once? Can't be good regarding tone suck... or do good loopers have smart non additive buffers in them? Anyone?
Presuming all the loop on but the pedals in the loops are all off so you're seeing all the buffers in series, it will depend on 1) the quality fo the buffers as there is no standard and also 2) the specs of those buffers in critical places like the input and output of the system. Generally it will add noise, attenuate your output, and not be great for the overall tone. If you turn on all the pedals and leave them all on, I don't suspect tone suck will matter much as it will be such a mess of sounds.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for your answer. I use the switchblade 8F which has a reputation of using good buffers. I shall measure the inputs and outputs though. In addition some of the pedals have buffers too. Guess I’m way overbuffered here, especially since buffers zap voice and I like to eliminate/ minimise them in my chain whenever possible.
My DOD Rubbernecker analog delay seems to have a crappy buffer in it. If the pedal is on it sounds great. But if I turn it off with tails on, I loose db. Turn the tails switch to off and the db come back. I have a very well buffered reverb pedal after it and it is fed from an always on SA Programmable EQ. Never noticed it at home, but at the sound check it became a problem. Now I run it "tails-off", problem solved. So far, that's my first complaint about that delay pedal. It's a beast.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks, Yup. That's what I did. The sound guy, Alex showed showed me the DB loss on mixer app from the board, it was around 4 db! But I could hear it as well. Took me a couple seconds to realize the BP buffer was engaged and likely the prob. True bypass option switch saved the day.
Great content Mason. Thanks for sharing your expertise. I have two h9s at the end of my chain. I search for the input and output impedance. According to their specs it’s 600k ohms for the input and 470 ohms for the output. Would I be covered with a buffer at the beginning or do I still need one at the end after the h9s?
This is a decent specification, but I wouldn’t call it great. It’s kind of somewhere in the middle between a really high-quality Buffer and something that’s more consumer level. You definitely still want an input Buffer
Just subscribed. You've got some really great content. My ears are beyond recognising different cable types. I'm not saying yours can't and I really appreciate the science based tech.
hi uncle mason….how about line level buffers after preamp type pedals? do i need buffers? are buffers designed for line level and guitar pedals the same?
What are your thoughts on the Dunlop X volume pedals? Do they produce town suck as well? I have a couple striving paddles, and then HX stomp running through my board. Do those count as buffers? (I.e big sky, mobius).
All passive volume pedals do, but I like the mechanical aspect of this pedal and use them often with our Vertex Boost as the EXP controller for the volume. They can be buffers, but those are all on the output, no input buffer in your list.
Bottom line is bad cables, lengthy cable connections within the pedalboard. Bad wirelesses....or Wirelesses in general. So a Vertex solves the problem, or aids it? How many are needed in a chain of say, 12 pedals. 10 drive, 2 digital? All supposed true bypass?
See our signal path video. Input buffer, output buffer, and as much true bypass as possible in between. High quality patch cables, iso'd power supply and that's a good place to start.
Good video. Question. If you have a pedalboard with a bunch of pedals, when all of them are turned on at the same time you don’t need (in that specific instance) a buffer correct?
Any device that’s turned on is a buffer at that point whether it is true bypass or not, however the quality of that buffer will vary greatly, some are OK, few are great. There are very few conditions or circumstances that I can think of where are you won’t need a high-quality input and output Buffer.
It’s hard to do properly with ordinary instrumentation and the plugs also have a capacitance as well that you’d have to zero out to isolate what’s from the cable versus the plugs. Most manufacturers have a spec sheet that already tell You this.
Using an ohm-meter, where does one put the probes to measure the total capacitance of all the guitar cables and patch cables and stomp boxes in one's rig? Assuming that the guitar has original Gibson 1961 humbuckers, which readings are considered good using 2 x 20 foot guitar cables with gold plated jacks and 6 Boss stomp boxes?
You can use your DVM set to capacitance (pF) and put your probes on one side of the cable on the tip and the sleeve (ground) and you'll get a measurement. Then divide that by the number of feet of the cable. Secondly, I would also measure the plugs separately so you can omit them if you want to just measure the cable itself or if you want to include the plugs in your measurement as they also have a capacitance. As to the number of the capacitance that you should look for, it depends on where it is. Up front, guitar to pedals, the cable is more critical to the sound since it's only be driven by passive pickups which aren't very efficient. On the output, even though Boss buffers are poor, it will be much more effective than your guitar pickups at driving capacitance on the output. In other words, the cable that will impact the sound most is the one from guitar to the first pedal. You might consider trying a few things with your pedalboard to see what sounds best to you. For the output cable, I'd go as low as possible in terms of capacitance, maybe 30 pf/ft or less.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks so much for your prompt response - much appreciated. My cheap multimeter has a nano farad setting so I've been measuring and testing all my cables and converting the nano reading to pico farad using an on-line convertor. Some of the results were truly startling. Four of my cables had excessively high capacitance including one very expensive cable at 85pF per foot and another 17 foot cable came in at a whopping 126.78 pF per foot while a cheap 20 footer came in at only 37.48pF per foot. Only two of my 20 foot cables were under 30 pF per foot while several others were in the 37 to 38 pF range.
I've never heard anyone tackle the subjects that you tackled I had no idea any of this stuff existed I've been using a Boss GT 6 multi processor but I started watching JHS pedals videos now I'm starting my own pedalboard I started buying some pedals to start my own board I had no idea all this was so complicated
I use an EHX hum debugger to tame my tele’s really bad 60 cycle hum but it has an output of 750ohms instead of the 100ohms you recommend for a buffer. Should I put a bonafide buffer right before or after it? I’ve watched your videos and am also going to be putting another buffer at the very end of my chain as well.
So what if I’m running about 18 or 19 pedals, and have a high quality buffer first and last, would another high-quality buffer, mid-chain be a good idea (like right before my passive volume)? Most of my other pedals are true bypass. I have a stereo Wet verb towards the end (that I think is buffered), and a EHX Micropog near the beginning (which I think is also buffered).
Depends on what pedals are normally on. Some pedals have low output impedances that are already pretty good as it. What feeds the passive volume pedal is really the determining factor. If you think that the pedal that's on before it is too variable or too high, you could throw a buffer before it or use something like our Vertex Boost which the volume pedal loops into via the EXP loop and the Boost has a buffer to turn that passive VP into an active one with a buffered send/return.
What if you dont want to rip everything apart and put these things in the pedals, or all that? Cant you just use a boost pedal and leave it on to take care of his stuff?
Hey, I have seven pedals on my board and am getting decreased volume until I kick on the pedal in 6th position. Doesn't matter what pedal is in the 5th or 6th position. pedal board is as follows polytone 3 -> cry baby mini -> ibanez tube screamer mini -> 6 band mxr EQ -> green Russian big muff (mini version) -> Rowin noise gate -> neo clone. Any help would be appreciated. Both cables are monster,and patch cables are custom length.
Jim Dunlop Crybaby Wah pedal GCB95 was about to buy one and was told its a major tone sucker, ended up getting the Carl Martin 2Wah best decision ever 👍
i have 3 true bypass pedal, 1 Boss Metalzone, i have two 15ft cable, and also i have four 6-8 inches patch cables. Question: Is Boss Metalzone, a buffer pedal? Do i need buffer or not?
This is probably a too-broad question/depends answer, but would other devices with a tuner out cause a similar tone suck? I have a Radial Big Shot ABY at the end of my board feeding a Princeton and an AC10, but I also run my tuner from its tuner out.
Amazing content guys! It's so helpful!! One question. I have a boss ce1 and vintage wh10 ibanez pedal. Will using a buffer at start and end of my chain be a sufficient remedy to any tone suck, or u think ill need to have it true bypassed?
My guitar has humbuckers. High capacitance cable is a problem, kills the presence peak that the pickups' inductance and tone caps create. But, the biggest problem I found is when a guitar is plugged into a low input impedance device. My first pedal in the chain had a low impedance input, so I built an internal JFET buffer into its input. That buffer has super-high input impedance and low output impedance. Could have done the same with a good quality buffer as my first pedal, but didn't have room for another pedal, and the buffer probably cost me a few bucks in parts.
High Capacitance cable isn't always the issue...depends on the type of capacitance and other factors as well. Some high capacitance cables sound pretty good with HB pickups, Belden 9778 and 8412 for example. Remember that even two caps of the same value in say mica vs. ceramic will have sound differences, just as cables with the same capacitance specs will sound different. There are other considerations as well. Buffer first is always a good idea, preferably 1M input Z, 100 ohm output.
@@VertexEffectsInc I'm an electrical engineer as well as a musician. You have to consider the whole package including the series resistance and inductance of the PU's which are in series with the shunt cable capacitance, driving a pedal or amp input impedance. The whole lot causes resonance if the capacitance is reasonable. When the capacitance increases beyond that, it turns the resonant circuit into a low pass filter making the guitar sound "dark." And even muddy. That very issue made my old LP sound awful. That's particularly true if you are using a long cord (20 feet, for example). A low Z input impedance only makes things worse. Some pedals are particularly bad at that. I use a hi Z input (many megaohms), low Z output buffer (about 1 k ohm) very close to my guitar. That way it will drive virtually any pedal and I can tweak the tone any way I want, without sacrificing high frequencies.
Better than solderless. Not great for customizing or cable management. With a high quality dual buffer it will be similar in sound to most other patch cables.
Mason, I am taking on your advise for input output buffers, but, how does one deal with pedals like a Lovepedal Eternity or Fuzzface that dont have their own i/o buffers and dont like any buffered pedals in front of them? Would I need to put those before the pedalboard interfaces input buffer?
Hi doc. What if my pedalboard is too congested and have to put the High-Wire in the middle (Example) where I can’t plug in/out cable straight, so I use junction box. Will that decrease the signal? Please advise.
You need it to be first and last to be effective. They also sell individual sections of the High Wire, called the Stowaway. This will allow you to put the input and output buffers separately for a better fit if you need that.
Hi! Just seen your thoughts about capacitance of the cables and I've got a question: why does buffer weakens signal from 1 meg to 100 ohm, what's the purpose?
Great video. In my Pedalboard there are true bypass and non true bypass pedals, can I improve my tone using a dedicated input and output buffer or I don’t need one? This my chain: Fuzz germanium type Tu3 Clyde standard wah Dyna comp Marshall bluesbreaker mk1 Ts808 Vertex ultraphonix Vertex steel string Volume pedal boss fv 500 h Mxr carbon copy Strymon timeline Strymon flint Ditto looper
Depends on if there stuff always on. If stuff is always on early in the chain the TU3 might be OK. It has a 1M input impedance but the output isn't great but that might not matter if you have a early pedal on often anyway. The Ditto has a 100ohm output Z as does the Flint, so you might be OK. I would focus more on high quality patch cables.
Love the videos guys! I had a question about noise! Particularly with a compressor. I’m not sure if that’s just because of the way I’m using the compressor but it seems that I definitely increase noise when the compressor is on. Is there a way where I can still use the compressor but cut down the noise? Not sure if you guys have a video on noise but that would be an awesome series! Thanks!
Cheap wound single guitar pickups have more magnetic leakage, any reasons why? because most pickup winders say don't wax pot the pickups because this alters the resonance and sustain of the pickup but this also increases the magnetic leakage when not wax potting them. When positioning the guitars pickups at different angles away from the amplifiers power transformer this is called "diametrically opposed" to try to cancel out the hum getting induced into the guitars single coil pickups? Shielding a guitars cavity body and shielding single coil pickups is consider "diametrically opposed" to try to cancel out the hum and magnetic fields?
The main reason for me is switches. They don’t last that many years of you gig a lot. I’ve replaced them many times over the years when I’ve suspected a worn out one and it makes a huge difference.
Very informative video, I really liked. But I don't know why at 10:10 it appears a GLS cable showing a 100pF per foot value, while on amazon it states a 38pF value... Did you guys measured the actual value?
I got this one about 10 years ago and got it specifically because it's got a lot of capacitance and is good for testing buffers. I measured it now it's a little under 97pF per foot including the connectors, so probably a little under that as most connectors have 10-20pF per connector or so.
Hello , I have a Pedalboard with 9 pedals . Most of them true bypass . One Marshall blues breaker ( not true bypass and not buffered … it has Some tone suck ) . First pedal is a mad professor royal blue od . This is a pedal that interacts with the Guitar just like a fuzz . It must be my first pedal for that Reason ( no buffer before it is the advise ) . Second pedal is a tc electronic polytone 3 mini with bonafide buffer . Can it be the second pedal or has it be the first because of the buffer at the beginning ( but that doe not work before the royal blue ) ? I also have a wampler boost wit independance buffer . For solo ( volume ) boost at the end of the chain . Will this work ? So , a buffered pedal as a second pedal and a buffered one as the last pedal ? Thnx . Mike
I'll step in here. Yes. You're fine. You want the fuzz/fuzz-like pedal to work properly. The buffer 2nd is close enough to buffer 1st in this case. The buffer at the end is where you want it as well. As long as it sounds good to you, then you're doing it right. 99% of the audience can't/won't be able to tell the difference, other musicians included. This is coming from a bass player, and everyone knows we can be psychopaths when it come to the minute details of our signal.chain.
I've definitely got tone suck in my effects loop. It's hard to work out what is going on and it seems that it is trial and error and money for me to even work out how to go about fixing it. I have a boss GE-7, CH1, DD7, an MXR phase 90, a chinese triverb and a behringer eq pedal. So I gather it is either my cables or I have too many buffers right?
But the thing is, I've had my setup like it is for a while now, maybe a week or so. So I'm not sure if this even applies to me. The patch cables I have a brand new but they are also from a random Chinese brand on amazon so...
No, you can’t unscramble a scrambled egg with doing a EQ after the fact. At least not to the degree where it will sound as you amp should with the guitar plugged into it with a single cable.
I'd be curious about your suggestions for working with the impedance finickiness of a Fuzz Face. Obviously putting it first in line with your guitar straight in is ideal but I'm wondering if there are other possibilities to make it work better elsewhere in the signal chain and / or play better with buffers? Thanks for this video btw.
Great video. Thanks for making it. You're a great communicator! I have 12 pedals in my chain (nothing vintage or Boss/Ibanez). Right up front is my TC Electronic polytune 3. In their literature they say the buffer in it will solve all of the issues associated with long cable runs. Do you know this to be true? Thanks in advance.
That'll be fine, but you still need an output buffer at the end that's also high quality.
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Hey Mason, thanks for the video, so insightful! Question: if I have a Fuzz pedal, should I put that first in the signal chain, then go into the TC tuner with bona fide buffer from it? I am also thinking of buying the Truetone buffer to close the chain off with, but I also have a KTR mid way through my signal chain. Should I set it to no buffer or put the buffer on and forget the TrueTone?Thanks a lot!
Paolo, I recommend using the KTR in true bypass... the buffer in it is poor and uses a TL072 IC chip which has poor output current and isn't really that stable driving long lines. Also, it's in the middle of your signal path, so any pedals after it that are turned on will defeat the buffer anyway in the KTR. I would recommend getting the output buffer.
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Thanks Mason, so cool of you to reply and help out myself and the community with your knowledge. Appreciate it :)
What have you found as the biggest culprits for the dreaded "TONE SUCK"!? Tell us in the comments below!
I’m running two tube amps so I have a passive Pyle Mini Hum Eliminator in my pedal chain to get rid of the 60 cycle hum. I do have a Polytune pedal first in my chain and it has a buffer. Any thoughts on if my hum eliminator is draining tone? After watching another Vertex Effects video on pedal boards, I think I need to add another buffer at the end of the chain. Thanks
Hey Mason and Vertex my name is Rocky and I know you'll probably not read this but I'll give it my best shot I recently lost all of my gear and guitars they were stolen from me and to compound the problem I lost my mom shortly after now that I'm all alone I'm financially unable to even get a cheap guitar or kit into my hands. My friends and family they're just not able to help so I came to the UA-cam guitar community I guess hoping for some charity or miracle it was a pipe dream I know but I'll put my pride aside I've played for 16 years and to not lose that I would beg if I had to many of the UA-camrs commented and told me that it sucked that I had lost my gear & guitars but, none was willing to help me and with that I have to give up playing after 16 years. Mason the reason I'm telling you this is I have to unsubscribe from Vertex and your channel man please don't be upset with me or offended it's not you or your content it's just like you know being at a smorgasbord and not being able to eat it just tears me up too bad I love your Dumble style pedals and stuff I was hoping to God I was going to be able to get my hands on some of those but, I lost everything and my playing to a thief that's life and unfortunately life isn't always charity Mason take care of yourself once again please don't be upset that I have to unsubscribe I do respect you and Vertex for everything and fir keeping my hopes up while I tried to get something to pan out man take care of yourself Mason I wish Vertex the absolute best and success your fan,
Rocky Henson
BY FAR MY ERNIE BALL VOLUME PEDAL JR 250K! I WAS SHOCKED AND SOLD IT IMMEDIATELY!!!!
@@guitarzan2979 gates are bad for tone...not a good idea if you can help it.
@@gregmize01 You could always use any VP with the Vertex Boost and it makes a passive VP into an active one.
I’ve said this before and I’m going to say it again I’m always learning watching your videos.
Thanks Howard! Thanks for all the support!
This is my new favourite gear channel! No Bs, no clowing. Just well presented wisdom being shared.
Ive been using my Tc Polytune first in chain, before my EB jr passive, in hopes that it would sort that tone sucking. Then i switch to plug the tuner into the EBall Tuner output. Now you teaching me i was better off like i was before. I Do have a digitech synth wah after the volume pedal, hoping it buffers it also. But maybe i m wrong. Great tips at the end. Very interesting kits. I run a 15 pedalboard with some TrueBP and Buffered ones. New pedals, and vintage pedals. So there must be some tone sucking for sure. Maybe i should put my EBall after the digitech and any other digital pedal as i tought all digital pedals have buffers on them. I probably will get a switchable looper. And your video on explaining looper and program. Loopers were really helpful. Just recently discovered this brand and channel and it looks very very promising. Keep up the great work, looking forward to hear more from Vertex fx.
Ps: i am experiencing a strange behaviout on my wah...i changed its pot. the pedal worked for a week, No problem. Now, the pedal when engaged is silent (its TBypass)...but if I take it out of the pedalboard and and just plug it alone, it works fine. I am in the studio doing reamps for an album i am about to finish and need to solve this issue. If you have any idea of what it might be and can shed some light i would be much appreciated.
Awesome, thank you! If your TC Tuner has the buffer make sure that's engaged before the volume pedal. I think it's always a good idea to have high quality buffers first and last no matter what.
@@VertexEffectsInc unfortunately it is the previous version of the Polytune. I dont think it has a buffer. I am a newb so, my tought was that every digital pedal i have (if doesnt have a choice between true bp vs bufferbp like the DL4 line6) it should buffer the signal. Yesterday i compared the combo of having the tuner on the out of the Eball Vol versus having the tuner has my first in chain pedal. The difference was really subtle and it seemed more in amplitude that in high frew roll off. But yes good tip there! Thank you. Buffer as a exterior pedal i never tought much about but you make it reconsiderable.
@@sun6moon9 it's a foundational piece that is really critical that most people overlook when spending big money on pedals. We have a few cheaper recommendations like the Truetone Buffer which is only $50, you'd need two but it's still great.
I know full well you've made another video about the same subject. I've got the material memorized. I care for my board and can make it better with your knowledge. I keep watching again and again and again. You're never boring behind that camera! Thanks.
Thanks for watching. I think this one explores more of the particulars for Tone Suck and some new solutions too :)
I used to think buffers were bad not knowing that all true bypass makes for giant ball of sucked tone. Now I like to have buffers especially on the “ends” before going in or out of the amp/long cables. This is a great lesson everyone should learn. Can’t wait
Buffer quality matters...a buffer alone, just any old buffer, won't be the same as another. High quality input buffer and output buffer is key and they need to be the right spec! 1M input impedance, 100 ohm output impedance.
Saw this tonight…I had only 3 pedals hooked up. One was the fuzz first which is true bypass, then a Jekyl and Hyde V1 and then a old DOD pedal last. When I removed the old DOD pedal which is buffered…my tone came back less muffled. I cleaned up this pedal and it sounded broke before. Got it in good shape, but it just takes off some of the clarity when off. I’m going to clean it up again and possibly put it first after my fuzz. Although it is a plexi drive type pedal. Not my preference to put a high gain pedal earlier before my OD. But it’s worth a shot! I don’t use it much but it’s there if I play something heavy. Honestly I think it may have some issues, as the light is still on even when you turn it off. So something is def up!
Hope the video helps!
Recently I've been going: Suhr-Strat (Lollar pickups) > 10 foot Mogami-gold > 65 Princeton Reverb = phenomenal tone. I have an elaborate pedalboard, with high quality "everything" - but it's just Not the Same. It's close, . . . but there's something magical about plugging-it-straight-in.
There are things you can do to really nail it - can be very specific rig to rig
I’m at the point where I watch all of your videos, whether I actually think the subject is “for me”. I just learn so much every time that I can click on one of your vids with confidence that I will take something away from it. So thank you.
My pleasure!
Just took my maxon phase tone reissue off the board and I am amazed at the improved brightness!! Incredible. Asking you tube why, led me to this explanatory video. ❤🎸
My biggest culprit has been bad/cheap/high capacitance patch cables. Mason, I owe you a huge debt of gratitude for showing me the way with mogami 2314 and sp400. Thank you!!
Yes!!! Now you gotta get a good dual buffer!
@@VertexEffectsInc That's my next project!
Great vid and even better information, Mason! Would love to see you install those buffer switches as you mentioned towards the end!
Great suggestion!
During my internship at a recording studio, we troubleshot a guitarist’s rig : guitar direct into his amp sounded amazing but plugging his pedalboard made ALL of his high end disappear, like putting a low-pass at 1-2kHz
Turns out it was one of those cheap patch cables with molded connectors that was the culprit. Felt especially bad since the guitarist had a great setup with vintage amp/guitar and cool pedals, and toured the world with it, only to be ruined by a single cable haha
When I came home that night I threw away all my cheap cables and invested in good ones lol
Now a good buffer might have eliminated a lot of that, but still good cables matter. Check out our patch cable shootout and see how the buffer impacts the overall tone and normalizes cables pretty well between the cheap and high end versions.
@@VertexEffectsInc will do!
Even though Jimi Hendrix didn’t have true bypass pedals, everyone at Woodstock still had a good time lol! One big thing that affects tone suck, is never practicing your actual playing and relying on pedals to sound awesome lol!
Alway appreciated for the golden nuggets of gear wisdom! Thanks for taking the time to do these videos
Thanks so much for watching and the support!
My man 😍 I’m learning more about how much I don’t know about my music gear in binge watching your videos today than I have in all my years of owning music gear and just playing around. Can I buy you a beer?!
Thanks Mark! Glad you dig the content!
A lot of people are talking about volume also. Like the EHX Good vibes chorus mode. Awesome effect, but a drastic volume drop.
Great video! How can I measure the capacitance of my instrument cables? I spent quite a bit on them (worried I spent more on the brand name than anything else) but I can't find any specs on them online. Thanks again!
The simplest way is to consults the spec sheet. Most brands have this. What's the cable?
@@VertexEffectsInc it's the Fender professional series.
I run an always on compressor at the beginning of my chain just after the wah and an always on EQ (both true bypass) at the end of the chain for my buffering needs. You can't get any more "bufferlicious" than an always on pedal.
The comp and EQ arrangement works perfectly for me.
Your Videos are like PedalPorn to me, i always learn new things here,most valuable Chanell on the planet! maybe a "Tone suck" case would be dirt or corroded patch,instrument cables and pedals. Deoxit d5 for the win and maybe deoxit g5 gold for gold plugs. Cheers!
DeOxit can really help
Tone suck is anything that causes your tone to suck.
I think bad power.We have learned so much from you bro.cheers mason
Thanks Rev!!!
Great video and great subject, I recently purchased a pure tone buffer and it made a huge difference in my tone. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. 🙏🙏🙏🙏
I’m so glad! Thanks for watching!
Very helpful! I need to get one of your new Vertex Boosts for my pedalboard. As always, thanks for educating us, Mason! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Make sure to preorder while you still can at Sweetwater!
This is great info Mason! Thanks for putting this together. Always thought about what impact stringing a bunch of pedals together does to the signal. This really helps.
Glad it was helpful!
Great video Mason. For me, vintage pedals and cables have been killers over the years, especially wahs. Thx for sharing the knowledge 🙏
My pleasure!!!!
I want that true bypass kit. Stick it in the battery compartment. Brilliant
Yes, Greenhouse Audio sells them!
The Intermediate tone sucking happens on phaser pedals and Univibes which will Fatten up your tone because its still running your audio signal through the phaser pedal or univibe while its turned off. David Gilmour live Pompeii 71 used a volume pedal so this would give him a darker tone put his vox wah is intermediate tone sucking also. Most pedals that used a SPDT switch all were Intermediate tone sucking. In the 80's people used the Boss PSM-5 RED pedal to turn off all there guitar pedals. The Boss PSM-5 has buffers and Fet switching. Have you look at the schematic of this pedal and the tone sucking?
I’m sure the PSM-5 was similar buffer to what Boss was using generally. There is very little variation over the years.
@@VertexEffectsInc It uses IC chips 4558 which the output impedance was 10K which I'm not sure why boss wanted 10K output impedance
I had a Behringher DD400 digital delay pedal that was the biggest tone sucker ever. Once I removed it from my signal chain I realized how it was lowering my volume and taking away some high end. Since then I avoid cheap pedals that probably have bad components (it may be the 6th cause for tone suck I guess haha).
Some can be OK...just depends on the pedal.
Such a precious information!! Cheers from Chile, love ur content!
Thanks for watching!
I'm not saying the advice is bad (I'm definitely going to double check that I'm following these!) But I think the Ernie Ball MVP pedal you show at 1:34 is actually active.
I think it might have been an oversight by the editor - presuming from the side it looked the same as a VPJR.
Very nice tips. Thank You Mason!
🙏🙏🙏 thanks for watching!
the docta tells all! thanks bro!!!
Thanks Colson! Thanks for watching!
One of go to pedals is the Digi-tech digidelay, all of my X-series and many dirt pedals of that era have 1meg input and 209hm output buffers. I have used them plugged in but not turned on to condition dinars in my sound design work. Piezo contact mics ideally want about 4meg to stop tone suck. 1meg goes a lot further in retaining the bass frequency response than many other modern low impedance devices.
Tone Suck Sucks
The worst is when you add a new pedal to your board and you can hear the different in the loss
Typically this wouldn’t be a result of a true bypass pedal
Excellent video on a topic where there seems to be a lot of confusion. Though not technically "tone suck" in terms of capacitive or resistive loading, your video reminded me of when Dave Phillips from LA Sound Design asked why I wired Doyle Bramhall II's Zoink with a grounded input when in bypass. Dave mentioned he didn't notice any additional noise without the grounded input on my full size Zonk Machine clone. One thing some don't consider in terms of "tone suck" in true bypass pedals is grounding the input of of the circuit when in bypass mode. Although your guitar's signal is not technically seeing the circuit when bypassed, the circuit is still energized when bypassed and can induce noise in the bypassed signal wires within the enclosure. This is especially true with high gain (fuzz) circuits when everything is in close proximity in a small pedal board friendly enclosure. In the case of circuits with oscillators, grounding the oscillator when bypassed eliminates any chance of induced tick in your bypassed signal. Though relatively rare the bypassed signal will have noise induced on it, it CAN and does happen. When it does, it can be a real wild goose chase to track down if you don't know where to look. Grounding the input of a high gain circuit when in bypass eliminates or at least mitigates induced noise on your bypassed signal. Grounding an oscillator in bypass always eliminates any chance of induced tick in your bypassed signal.
There are several ways to do true bypass, the BEST of which grounds or shorts the circuit when in bypass so you don't get any risk of oscillation when the pedal is off. Often when I did build pedalboards for hire, I would convert pedals to this standard unless they were in a switcher. Yes, high gain circuits are more susceptible to this issue, also pedals that have internal clocks as well: chorus, phaser, flangers, to name a few - are also susceptible to this. We have another video that mentions this...not sure what the title was we've made so many, but basically something along the lines of "not all true bypass is created equally". Thanks for watching and for the comment.
I would love a video on installing the buffer switch into pedals!
Perhaps we can get Roy to send us a few :)
How you doing Mason? These videos are such a great resource for guitarists. Very much appreciated.
I'm using a GigRig G2 in a Wet Dry Wet rig. My instinct is to use 3 Mesa Dual Buffers...
- T
The G2 has its own buffers. I don't like the output impedance of them but the input buffers should be fine. I would just use a separate output buffer or at least experiment with it to see if you notice an improvement.
If you use a pedal pre-amp (bass) with XLR straight to FoH, would you still use an output buffer (say, between the last fx pedal and the pre-amp) or just an input buffer at the start of pedal board?
No, if you’re going balanced you don’t need an output Buffer
Just Subscribed, you are awesome dude!! Thank you, just bought the little black buffer
Thanks for the sub! Be sure to check out our recommended buffers in the description so you get one that's the right spec!
Thanks for the great info!....I start my pedal board S Chain with a BSS Audio AR-133 active DI-box. SO my FIRST QUESTION is: What is your opinion of the AR-133 as a buffer? Then the signal goes into a MORLEY 3 WAY SPLITTER ( I use a small yamaha mixer at the end were I mix my drum machine and drone textures, with at least three signals from my guitar that each ends into its own amp-cab modeler before they go into the mixer) SECOND QUESTION: I have experienced once the weird phenomenon of no signal coming out of the other two splitter outlets. How is that even possible? I have some more Q but will limit my questions to these two, for now at least. And will welcome any comments or suggestions on my set up... Thank you for your time.
Looks like 1M input (which is good for guitar), 600 ohm output (which is so-so). I would suspect that your splitter might have some issues with the outputs because the input signal is shared among them if it's a single input to three outputs. Could be the cables could be the jacks in the splitter, could be something else totally.
I've got a Creation Audio Labs buffer inside my custom tele with Lindy Fralin humbuckers! Absolutely love it, and I love how the signal quality stays intact with all the highs. And yes, I tried a treble bleed cap mod and it didn't work so well for me.
That’s great for the input buffer - you’ll still need an output buffer.
I run an ampless rig, with my Atomic Amplifire. My signal chain is just guitar - radial instrument selector - EP booster - Atomic - FOH.
I learned that I don’t know much. 14 pedals and components on my board and I constantly hear that I need more volume. Ugh…it never ends.
I feel your pain. I wish id never found the rig doctor.. now I know what a simpleton I am.
Look into the differences between gain and volume. Don't take anyone's word for it. Make sure the information comes from a credible source.
I have the Ernie Ball MVP volume pedal. When I got it, I was "WTF? it needs power? "Oh well, I've extra supply plugs since my pedal board is quite sparse." My tuner goes into the tuner output from the volume pedal... no tone suck at all.
I'm a Tele player, love clean twang. I use your Steel String Clean Drive (it's heavenly). It just warms things up so nicely.
The Clean drive turns the guitar's volume into a gain control, blatantly. For my clean Country twang, I'll back off the guitar's volume to 2/3rds, open up the volume pedal. For Blues with a bit of edge, I'll peg the guitar's volume, cut back on the volume pedal... the Clean driive, nearly full gain, delivers exactly what I'm looking for. It adds sustain across the board, clean or hairy.
I'm wondering if this volume pedal has a buffer. I do use the Boss/Fender '63 Reverb... In this vid, you have it with pedals you said have built in buffers. Am I correct?
Most of what you said in the vid goes way over my head tech wise.... I wanted to stop you many times and ask you to explain... but, I can't.
My Tele has a 1meg volume pot, 250k tone... No tone suck at all. I can still peal paint with the bridge pup if I wanted to. When on the bridge pup, I ride the tone knob more than the volume at a gig....
Love your products... and your vids...
Thanks.
Great video! Love your stuff, always looking for vertex on the used market. Not cuz there over priced I'm just a poor as shit
Cheerz
Awesome video. Is it bad practice to position pedals based on how you use them, vs where they are in the signal chain if it means having a few long (12" - 18") patch cables instead of 3" cables?
That amount of cable length difference should be negligible. Shouldn't matter.
Great video doc! What about the tuner out on the switcher? Does it suck tone to?
Typically that’s a buffers out, so no
I have a fairly simple pedal board setup on a pedal train classic 22 inch by 12.5 inch board. I'm running a dc-7 and crux for power. I've got a horizon precision drive to start the chain, that goes into an ISP decimator g-string 2, the guitar out goes into the front of the amplifier. My effects send goes into the ISP decimator, then out of the decimator and into a quad cortex which goes back onto the FX return of the 5150. My question is what do I set the input impedance on yhe quad cortex? I have been using 1m ohm but want to be sure im delecting the right level. For cabling, I am using the Ernie Ball flex flat cables for the pedal board, fx loop, and guitar. I essentially use the quad cortex as a guitar tuner along with a various amount of time-based effects, occasionally I will direct plug into the quad cortex and have that go into power amp and drive a cab
Orange or50.. guitar straight in awesome. Or50, crybaby, tu2, carbon copy... livable.. but as soon as I ad my mxr reverb, true bypass setting or buffered. My tone changes. Enough to annoy me that I wont use it. Think I need a loop switch.
Could also be cabling, or other factors. What if you just use the Reverb on its own - guitar, reverb, amp? Same issue?
Great video, thank you. So lets say you have a buffered looper and have all loops on. What does it do to the tone to have so many buffers on at once? Can't be good regarding tone suck... or do good loopers have smart non additive buffers in them? Anyone?
Presuming all the loop on but the pedals in the loops are all off so you're seeing all the buffers in series, it will depend on 1) the quality fo the buffers as there is no standard and also 2) the specs of those buffers in critical places like the input and output of the system. Generally it will add noise, attenuate your output, and not be great for the overall tone. If you turn on all the pedals and leave them all on, I don't suspect tone suck will matter much as it will be such a mess of sounds.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for your answer. I use the switchblade 8F which has a reputation of using good buffers. I shall measure the inputs and outputs though. In addition some of the pedals have buffers too. Guess I’m way overbuffered here, especially since buffers zap voice and I like to eliminate/ minimise them in my chain whenever possible.
My DOD Rubbernecker analog delay seems to have a crappy buffer in it. If the pedal is on it sounds great. But if I turn it off with tails on, I loose db. Turn the tails switch to off and the db come back. I have a very well buffered reverb pedal after it and it is fed from an always on SA Programmable EQ. Never noticed it at home, but at the sound check it became a problem. Now I run it "tails-off", problem solved. So far, that's my first complaint about that delay pedal. It's a beast.
It may be using a BJT or something that doesn't quite get back to unity gain. You may consider just leaving it in TB mode in that case.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks, Yup. That's what I did. The sound guy, Alex showed showed me the DB loss on mixer app from the board, it was around 4 db! But I could hear it as well. Took me a couple seconds to realize the BP buffer was engaged and likely the prob. True bypass option switch saved the day.
Great content Mason. Thanks for sharing your expertise.
I have two h9s at the end of my chain. I search for the input and output impedance. According to their specs it’s 600k ohms for the input and 470 ohms for the output. Would I be covered with a buffer at the beginning or do I still need one at the end after the h9s?
This is a decent specification, but I wouldn’t call it great. It’s kind of somewhere in the middle between a really high-quality Buffer and something that’s more consumer level. You definitely still want an input Buffer
@@VertexEffectsInc so, I can just go with the input buffer and let the h9s be the buffers for the output?
You can try it...they’re ok, not perfect
Just subscribed. You've got some really great content. My ears are beyond recognising different cable types. I'm not saying yours can't and I really appreciate the science based tech.
you know you shiz bro, loving the channel!
Appreciate that! Thanks for watching!
A big one is also stomp switches. After a few years of heavy use they no longer pass a clean signal through.
Solid gold info, Mason, thank you.
Thanks for watching!!!
hi uncle mason….how about line level buffers after preamp type pedals? do i need buffers? are buffers designed for line level and guitar pedals the same?
What are your thoughts on the Dunlop X volume pedals? Do they produce town suck as well? I have a couple striving paddles, and then HX stomp running through my board. Do those count as buffers? (I.e big sky, mobius).
All passive volume pedals do, but I like the mechanical aspect of this pedal and use them often with our Vertex Boost as the EXP controller for the volume. They can be buffers, but those are all on the output, no input buffer in your list.
Bottom line is bad cables, lengthy cable connections within the pedalboard. Bad wirelesses....or Wirelesses in general. So a Vertex solves the problem, or aids it? How many are needed in a chain of say, 12 pedals. 10 drive, 2 digital? All supposed true bypass?
See our signal path video. Input buffer, output buffer, and as much true bypass as possible in between. High quality patch cables, iso'd power supply and that's a good place to start.
Good video. Question. If you have a pedalboard with a bunch of pedals, when all of them are turned on at the same time you don’t need (in that specific instance) a buffer correct?
Any device that’s turned on is a buffer at that point whether it is true bypass or not, however the quality of that buffer will vary greatly, some are OK, few are great. There are very few conditions or circumstances that I can think of where are you won’t need a high-quality input and output Buffer.
Do you need a buffer if you have a DI box at the end of your chain?
Like a Radial SGI? Wont hurt especially if you ever had to go corded to an amp
@@VertexEffectsInc line isolator like the pinstripe DISO +
thanks for the response 😁
I think the impedance isn’t that low, as I recall like 500 ohms - could be wrong
ABY switcher. Do I want a buffer or true bypass? I have some Boss Waza craft pedals before it.
Another great video!!! Very very useful. Just one question: how to measure the capacitance of a cable or a pedal with a multimeter?
It’s hard to do properly with ordinary instrumentation and the plugs also have a capacitance as well that you’d have to zero out to isolate what’s from the cable versus the plugs. Most manufacturers have a spec sheet that already tell
You this.
Using an ohm-meter, where does one put the probes to measure the total capacitance of all the guitar cables and patch cables and stomp boxes in one's rig? Assuming that the guitar has original Gibson 1961 humbuckers, which readings are considered good using 2 x 20 foot guitar cables with gold plated jacks and 6 Boss stomp boxes?
You can use your DVM set to capacitance (pF) and put your probes on one side of the cable on the tip and the sleeve (ground) and you'll get a measurement. Then divide that by the number of feet of the cable. Secondly, I would also measure the plugs separately so you can omit them if you want to just measure the cable itself or if you want to include the plugs in your measurement as they also have a capacitance. As to the number of the capacitance that you should look for, it depends on where it is. Up front, guitar to pedals, the cable is more critical to the sound since it's only be driven by passive pickups which aren't very efficient. On the output, even though Boss buffers are poor, it will be much more effective than your guitar pickups at driving capacitance on the output. In other words, the cable that will impact the sound most is the one from guitar to the first pedal. You might consider trying a few things with your pedalboard to see what sounds best to you. For the output cable, I'd go as low as possible in terms of capacitance, maybe 30 pf/ft or less.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks so much for your prompt response - much appreciated. My cheap multimeter has a nano farad setting so I've been measuring and testing all my cables and converting the nano reading to pico farad using an on-line convertor. Some of the results were truly startling. Four of my cables had excessively high capacitance including one very expensive cable at 85pF per foot and another 17 foot cable came in at a whopping 126.78 pF per foot while a cheap 20 footer came in at only 37.48pF per foot. Only two of my 20 foot cables were under 30 pF per foot while several others were in the 37 to 38 pF range.
@@taab7 a lot of that could also be the plugs...some of the plugs have 50pf just in the plugs (then multiply that x2 plugs)
I've never heard anyone tackle the subjects that you tackled I had no idea any of this stuff existed I've been using a Boss GT 6 multi processor but I started watching JHS pedals videos now I'm starting my own pedalboard I started buying some pedals to start my own board I had no idea all this was so complicated
Let us know if we can assist in answering questions - always happy to help!
I use an EHX hum debugger to tame my tele’s really bad 60 cycle hum but it has an output of 750ohms instead of the 100ohms you recommend for a buffer. Should I put a bonafide buffer right before or after it? I’ve watched your videos and am also going to be putting another buffer at the very end of my chain as well.
What’s the input impedance?
So what if I’m running about 18 or 19 pedals, and have a high quality buffer first and last, would another high-quality buffer, mid-chain be a good idea (like right before my passive volume)? Most of my other pedals are true bypass. I have a stereo Wet verb towards the end (that I think is buffered), and a EHX Micropog near the beginning (which I think is also buffered).
Depends on what pedals are normally on. Some pedals have low output impedances that are already pretty good as it. What feeds the passive volume pedal is really the determining factor. If you think that the pedal that's on before it is too variable or too high, you could throw a buffer before it or use something like our Vertex Boost which the volume pedal loops into via the EXP loop and the Boost has a buffer to turn that passive VP into an active one with a buffered send/return.
Hi! Hopefully my question will be answered! What buffer would you recommend for someone who wants to go stereo?
follow our recommended list and get two for the output one for L and one for R in addition to the input buffer.
Thx Masson! I have an MVP by ernie ball..and it's active..but doesn't work properly when i place my xotic Ep booster before it, Any ideas ?
What if you dont want to rip everything apart and put these things in the pedals, or all that? Cant you just use a boost pedal and leave it on to take care of his stuff?
"These things in pedals"...what do you mean?
What about using a Polytune 3 (that's buffered) in the input with any other buffer pedal output? Good enough or meh?
Depends on the specs as stated in this video.
Hey, I have seven pedals on my board and am getting decreased volume until I kick on the pedal in 6th position. Doesn't matter what pedal is in the 5th or 6th position. pedal board is as follows polytone 3 -> cry baby mini -> ibanez tube screamer mini -> 6 band mxr EQ -> green Russian big muff (mini version) -> Rowin noise gate -> neo clone. Any help would be appreciated. Both cables are monster,and patch cables are custom length.
Jim Dunlop Crybaby Wah pedal GCB95 was about to buy one and was told its a major tone sucker, ended up getting the Carl Martin 2Wah best decision ever 👍
I think the newer version are now true bypass but some is the older and original units were “partial bypass”
@@VertexEffectsInc i saw some of them say Hardwired Bypass is that what you mean?
i have 3 true bypass pedal, 1 Boss Metalzone, i have two 15ft cable, and also i have four 6-8 inches patch cables.
Question: Is Boss Metalzone, a buffer pedal? Do i need buffer or not?
You want a high quality input and output buffer.
@@VertexEffectsInc can i use 1 buffer? and where i will put them, first in the signal chain? or last in the signal chain?
This is probably a too-broad question/depends answer, but would other devices with a tuner out cause a similar tone suck? I have a Radial Big Shot ABY at the end of my board feeding a Princeton and an AC10, but I also run my tuner from its tuner out.
Is your radial active? If so, it's probably not a case for concern.
If it’s passive it’s going to have the same impact if the tuner is floating out there
Amazing content guys! It's so helpful!! One question. I have a boss ce1 and vintage wh10 ibanez pedal. Will using a buffer at start and end of my chain be a sufficient remedy to any tone suck, or u think ill need to have it true bypassed?
If the Ibanez pedal is passive then put the buffer right before it. That's assuming you actually have a problem.
My guitar has humbuckers. High capacitance cable is a problem, kills the presence peak that the pickups' inductance and tone caps create. But, the biggest problem I found is when a guitar is plugged into a low input impedance device. My first pedal in the chain had a low impedance input, so I built an internal JFET buffer into its input. That buffer has super-high input impedance and low output impedance. Could have done the same with a good quality buffer as my first pedal, but didn't have room for another pedal, and the buffer probably cost me a few bucks in parts.
High Capacitance cable isn't always the issue...depends on the type of capacitance and other factors as well. Some high capacitance cables sound pretty good with HB pickups, Belden 9778 and 8412 for example. Remember that even two caps of the same value in say mica vs. ceramic will have sound differences, just as cables with the same capacitance specs will sound different. There are other considerations as well. Buffer first is always a good idea, preferably 1M input Z, 100 ohm output.
@@VertexEffectsInc I'm an electrical engineer as well as a musician. You have to consider the whole package including the series resistance and inductance of the PU's which are in series with the shunt cable capacitance, driving a pedal or amp input impedance. The whole lot causes resonance if the capacitance is reasonable. When the capacitance increases beyond that, it turns the resonant circuit into a low pass filter making the guitar sound "dark." And even muddy. That very issue made my old LP sound awful. That's particularly true if you are using a long cord (20 feet, for example). A low Z input impedance only makes things worse. Some pedals are particularly bad at that. I use a hi Z input (many megaohms), low Z output buffer (about 1 k ohm) very close to my guitar. That way it will drive virtually any pedal and I can tweak the tone any way I want, without sacrificing high frequencies.
What is your take om EBS and Rockboard cables?
Better than solderless. Not great for customizing or cable management. With a high quality dual buffer it will be similar in sound to most other patch cables.
Was wondering if Morley Little Alligator is a passive volume pedal.
Thanks.
Does it have power? That’s usually the easiest way to tell
@@VertexEffectsInc it does have power. So it’s active. Gotcha :)
I use a polytune 3 and it has a signal buffer on it which is awesome
Mason, I am taking on your advise for input output buffers, but, how does one deal with pedals like a Lovepedal Eternity or Fuzzface that dont have their own i/o buffers and dont like any buffered pedals in front of them? Would I need to put those before the pedalboard interfaces input buffer?
I would put the buffer after any buffer sensitive pedals (input buffer) and then output buffer at the end of the chain.
@@VertexEffectsInc thank you very much sir.
am I ok with my boss FV500H after my distorsion if I have an input and output buffer? i use 2 tc electonic bonafide
You can, it may just not be as optimal as the L version.
Hi doc. What if my pedalboard is too congested and have to put the High-Wire in the middle (Example) where I can’t plug in/out cable straight, so I use junction box. Will that decrease the signal? Please advise.
You need it to be first and last to be effective. They also sell individual sections of the High Wire, called the Stowaway. This will allow you to put the input and output buffers separately for a better fit if you need that.
Hi! Just seen your thoughts about capacitance of the cables and I've got a question: why does buffer weakens signal from 1 meg to 100 ohm, what's the purpose?
Great video.
In my Pedalboard there are true bypass and non true bypass pedals, can I improve my tone using a dedicated input and output buffer or I don’t need one? This my chain:
Fuzz germanium type
Tu3
Clyde standard wah
Dyna comp
Marshall bluesbreaker mk1
Ts808
Vertex ultraphonix
Vertex steel string
Volume pedal boss fv 500 h
Mxr carbon copy
Strymon timeline
Strymon flint
Ditto looper
Depends on if there stuff always on. If stuff is always on early in the chain the TU3 might be OK. It has a 1M input impedance but the output isn't great but that might not matter if you have a early pedal on often anyway. The Ditto has a 100ohm output Z as does the Flint, so you might be OK. I would focus more on high quality patch cables.
Thanks for the tip on the tuner output on the volume output. I use the tuner output on my empress buffer. Do all pedals suffer from this tone suck?
That should be buffered and split off the input buffer.
Thanks for sharing all the great tips Mason! A video about that true-bypass mod would be awesome,
The Boss one or a standard 3PDT
@@VertexEffectsInc 3PDT!
I gave some good reference links for this, but not all devices will allow this particular type of switch to be used to, in particular the BOSS pedals
Love the videos guys! I had a question about noise! Particularly with a compressor. I’m not sure if that’s just because of the way I’m using the compressor but it seems that I definitely increase noise when the compressor is on. Is there a way where I can still use the compressor but cut down the noise? Not sure if you guys have a video on noise but that would be an awesome series! Thanks!
Compressors add noise...think of it as an overdrive for your clean tone :)
Yes we have videos on noise issues...see our Rig Doctor Playlist.
I put my Keely compressor (and MXR 10 EQ and Pigtronix Boost) in the send/return loop of my Boss NS2. Problem solved.
Cheap wound single guitar pickups have more magnetic leakage, any reasons why? because most pickup winders say don't wax pot the pickups because this alters the resonance and sustain of the pickup but this also increases the magnetic leakage when not wax potting them. When positioning the guitars pickups at different angles away from the amplifiers power transformer this is called "diametrically opposed" to try to cancel out the hum getting induced into the guitars single coil pickups? Shielding a guitars cavity body and shielding single coil pickups is consider "diametrically opposed" to try to cancel out the hum and magnetic fields?
You're talking about using this vocabulary or the impact of the shielding having the same impact?
The main reason for me is switches. They don’t last that many years of you gig a lot. I’ve replaced them many times over the years when I’ve suspected a worn out one and it makes a huge difference.
I think I've had dirty switches that passed signal but there was significant loss, is that possible?
Maybe a failing Footswitch or dirty contacts yes, DeOxit it your friend
Do modern MXR pedals still have this problem?
I have a newer Dyna Comp, and now I’m wondering if I should chuck it?
No, they're usually all true bypass. You can check the spec sheet to confirm.
Very informative video, I really liked. But I don't know why at 10:10 it appears a GLS cable showing a 100pF per foot value, while on amazon it states a 38pF value... Did you guys measured the actual value?
I got this one about 10 years ago and got it specifically because it's got a lot of capacitance and is good for testing buffers. I measured it now it's a little under 97pF per foot including the connectors, so probably a little under that as most connectors have 10-20pF per connector or so.
Hello , I have a Pedalboard with 9 pedals . Most of them true bypass . One Marshall blues breaker ( not true bypass and not buffered … it has Some tone suck ) . First pedal is a mad professor royal blue od . This is a pedal that interacts with the Guitar just like a fuzz . It must be my first pedal for that Reason ( no buffer before it is the advise ) . Second pedal is a tc electronic polytone 3 mini with bonafide buffer . Can it be the second pedal or has it be the first because of the buffer at the beginning ( but that doe not work before the royal blue ) ? I also have a wampler boost wit independance buffer . For solo ( volume ) boost at the end of the chain . Will this work ? So , a buffered pedal as a second pedal and a buffered one as the last pedal ? Thnx . Mike
I'll step in here. Yes. You're fine. You want the fuzz/fuzz-like pedal to work properly. The buffer 2nd is close enough to buffer 1st in this case. The buffer at the end is where you want it as well.
As long as it sounds good to you, then you're doing it right. 99% of the audience can't/won't be able to tell the difference, other musicians included. This is coming from a bass player, and everyone knows we can be psychopaths when it come to the minute details of our signal.chain.
I've definitely got tone suck in my effects loop. It's hard to work out what is going on and it seems that it is trial and error and money for me to even work out how to go about fixing it. I have a boss GE-7, CH1, DD7, an MXR phase 90, a chinese triverb and a behringer eq pedal. So I gather it is either my cables or I have too many buffers right?
I would suspect it's more of an issue of not having a buffered effects loop - I think it would be a solution for the Kleinulator.
Me too lol that's why I'm here.
But the thing is, I've had my setup like it is for a while now, maybe a week or so. So I'm not sure if this even applies to me. The patch cables I have a brand new but they are also from a random Chinese brand on amazon so...
My crybaby was a major source of tone suck. After converting it to real true bypass and removing the buffer it's usable again!
If it’s the versions that aren’t true bypass it can be an issue tone wise
@@VertexEffectsInc Yes its the GCB-95 Rev. H
Loved the video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Can this tone suck be remedied by increasing the tone of your guitar/amp instead of buying additional stuff?
No, you can’t unscramble a scrambled egg with doing a EQ after the fact. At least not to the degree where it will sound as you amp should with the guitar plugged into it with a single cable.
I'd be curious about your suggestions for working with the impedance finickiness of a Fuzz Face. Obviously putting it first in line with your guitar straight in is ideal but I'm wondering if there are other possibilities to make it work better elsewhere in the signal chain and / or play better with buffers? Thanks for this video btw.
Input buffer would come after your fuzz of any impedance sensitive device.
Great video. Thanks for making it. You're a great communicator! I have 12 pedals in my chain (nothing vintage or Boss/Ibanez). Right up front is my TC Electronic polytune 3. In their literature they say the buffer in it will solve all of the issues associated with long cable runs. Do you know this to be true? Thanks in advance.
That'll be fine, but you still need an output buffer at the end that's also high quality.
Hey Mason, thanks for the video, so insightful! Question: if I have a Fuzz pedal, should I put that first in the signal chain, then go into the TC tuner with bona fide buffer from it? I am also thinking of buying the Truetone buffer to close the chain off with, but I also have a KTR mid way through my signal chain. Should I set it to no buffer or put the buffer on and forget the TrueTone?Thanks a lot!
Paolo, I recommend using the KTR in true bypass... the buffer in it is poor and uses a TL072 IC chip which has poor output current and isn't really that stable driving long lines. Also, it's in the middle of your signal path, so any pedals after it that are turned on will defeat the buffer anyway in the KTR. I would recommend getting the output buffer.
Thanks Mason, so cool of you to reply and help out myself and the community with your knowledge. Appreciate it :)
Would you recommend 2 separate buffers. 1 for input, then 1 for output. Or can you use just 1 with send and receive like the high-wire
Either/or if the specs are right it won't matter much.