Lovin' this little "series" if you can call it that. This has incredible implications even online. I'm wondering if, by studying multiple seeds, we can assess a certain set of actions that most commonly leads to better "chunks". If that makes sense. Could allow us to roll GG runewords on command, etc.
Currently doing extensive research with rolling rune words. Nothing seems to affect the roll besides game seed. But you can roll them very consistently. All we need now is a way to tell what seed we're on online and we can test a runeword roll on SP before we do it live!
very good point on the rolling runewords, Quite interesting. I am curious as well as to how we could get the seed code for a game? Good idea on using SP to test what the seed code is capable of
@@GGMentor If the seed code is even sent to the player client in multiplayer (which I highly doubt since most of the rng/drop calculations are going to be done server side, but it is possible), it would likely need a specialized packet sniffer / data extraction program to identify it. Considering the sheer amount of items in the drop table and all the variables that affect item drop quality, I don't think it will be very feasible to do any extensive control testing beyond simple actions like "load in and proceed to chest at x location in 1-3 amount of steps to get this one specific item" on single player controlled seeds. Trying to reverse engineer the exact details of the seeding system and RNG logic and applying that to a multiplayer game would require a program with an encyclopedic amount of knowledge.
Try reroll runeword after u visit another waypoint. See if you get consistent results. I got a LO rune scenario but i couldent reproduce it again. I think is has to do with how maps are created. Check that in speed run videos. Check if rolls are influenced by the zone loaded just before. Travel to a wp the to town. Save and exit, check if roll changes if you load another zone in the new game. I think it is tied to maps. A bot that does things clockwork will tell if this is the case...
The fact that playstyle impacts drops and everything, is just amazing, since this game was made nearly 25 years ago. Explains why so many still play it including myself. I’ve tried other ARPGs but they just don’t feel the same as D2. This is seriously fascinating.
I seriously think this might very well be the reason D2 has stayed fresh and fun despite time. because the experience changes from person to person, and when people get together undoubtedly the experience changes even further. Also As you grow and become better at the game it changes again.
I think it's also why you can have great success in this game by playing P1 all the way to P8, rolling multiple characters or just one, clearing several areas or just farming the same boss over and over.
@@LeoFINuTube i get that, but you can't really manipulate anything when you play. there's no way to know the amount of variables and what seed you are on that determine everything that drops. Just play the game with different builds how you wanna play it. Ive never worried about the seed, or item inventory, or which way point i went to first, or how much time i took to open a chest and i have made tons of builds, found several high runes and lots of items worth high runes. All on P1 as well.
The -seed command has been known since very early versions of the OG D2. There is of course a good reason why this command, along with the -act(x) command is banned from the forum I frequent. If you were to remove the -seed command, the map will still stay the same, but your drops will be random again, within the odds of 16 bits (65,536 different rolls/drops) per chest [EDIT: *not* "per chest", ALL the chests share the same 16-bit seed for that act, regardless of map] per 2 simulated players in the game. Objects (clickable stuff that are not chests, and chests in act 5) have 32 bit seeds, so much more random. This was heavily studied back when LoD first dropped, and by people like me who like to "time travel" to get the good stuff no longer available in newer patches. Racks were the way to go back then, since MF was broken, act boss drops except from normal difficulty were broken, and the TC system was unfinished (drops stopped at TC 66 or 69, but there were items all the way up to TC90). But racks don't use the TC system, so they were the ONLY source of certain overpowered uniques like Grandfather, Arkaines Valor, etc. which have way way higher stats than their current versions. About cheating or not cheating, that is every man for himself. I wouldn't do this, but then again I use a mule program to save thousands of items that I found by my own perception of legitimacy.
Your comment isn't up far enough. I've done thousands of LK runs in the exact same pattern, I would have noticed pretty quick if the same things were dropping over and over again. The only reason this works is the -seed command.
@@lildavo87 Thanks for your endorsement. I've done tens of thousands; enough to see that the 16-bit seed is indeed true for chests (all chests, including the ones in huts by the campfire(s) that drop loads). The high runes are the key to seeing this, as you are much more likely to make a screenshot of one dropping. The items dropping along with them are always the same patterns. Harder to detect the more common the rune, but I believe 1.10 had something like 2 Ber patterns, and very few of the others at players8. What was really interesting to investigate was patch 1.09b, where you could set players command all the way up to players64 (yes, without the / at that time). Very long story very short: Don't bother running LK in 1.09b.
20:38 Hell yeah, I'm gonna play with the "variables" (player count, etc.). Thanks, GGM. You are a trailblazer in research. This is the game within the game!
Callin this game alive gives me goosebumps and chills at the same time. Its realy one incredibly build game. Super old and still got that spark that you cant find anywhere in other games.
Looking at mercenary movement might help in finding how big a chunk is. While they genrally do a good job at keeping close. I've noticed they sometimes act very weird. Like I'd take 1 step and they'd walk to the other side of the screen even past enemies who attack them. And in those spots I've tried to run around to get them to stay close, but they either don't move at all or move to the other side of the screen. Haven't done real testing. But my guess is mercenaries are programed to stay in the chunk you're in. And crossing between them can cause such extreme movements. Most obvious cases I've seen in some of the dungeon levels, with clear defined rooms. Where passing trough the door will cause the merc to go to center of the room regadless of enemies. It might be easier to see with archer or mage merc. Since they can usully attack from where they're standing, so when they walk you know they are not trying to attack. Or maybe their movement isn't based on chunks but "sub-chunks" or "rooms", or some other sort of sub-division.
Back in the day before LOD expansion, an identified item that was present in the loaded game would prevent that same item from dropping. so it was a 100% guarantee that you would roll an SOJ if you had a Nagel and a manald ID’d and present in the game at the time you identified a unique ring.
@@Brentgilbertstudio this is sick, actually. I mean how often do you pass an item to a mule to free up inventory... and get the same one pretty soon. Did you learn that the drop moment or identification moment is when the magic item gets its attributes/name?
26:27 Groundhog day This is so awesome. I always loved digging deep into the game mechanics. Wondered why I find 3 kraken shells in a row. This brings us closer to understanding the game. Love it.
with Ai and thousands of hours of gameplay I think it's possible could "see" into the coding in advance for loot. The game basically operates on elaborate Lists that criss cross each other creating the illusion of RNG but it's pre-coded. But online would be a different situation since additional uncontrollable variables can apply for example, number of games/players/time of day However it's not infinite, which means AI could do the job in theory. It would be too time consuming to manually learn every variable.
I found I Gul rune beyond the same run as the Ber rune. It is very difficult and I have only been able to repeat it about 11 times in four hours of trying, which is still really good. I have been trying to get the Ber and the Gul on the same run with no success. I can tell you the further out from the starting point the harder the repeatability of the desired drop. You can also get the Ber rune without touching anything. It is about what you have in your inventory and the chunk loadout and/or the precise path that you take to the desired drop. Speed is not a factor but it helps for repeatability. Clicking on chest, skeletons, super chests and other items only helps with repeating the same bath every run. The Ber rune has a window where I can collect about 4 of them and keep them in my inventory before the window closes. Each Ber rune in my inventory shortens/lengthens or changes the path by a fraction to get the next Ber rune to drop, then the window closes and you must remove the runes from your inventory and start again. I have multiple videos on the gul rune path that I have not perfected and really just borders on getting lucky. Ginger if you would like me to share with you the videos I have collected, I would be more than willing to share them with you. I absolutely find this experiment fascinating and amazing how finite the variables are to repeating a singular event. One misstep in the beginning can send you down a completely different path.
I had noticed something similar to your Ber-rune-in-inventory theory but I was using rare amulets that I picked up. When I had 1-4 of them in my inventory, I had a much easier time gettting the Ber rune drop. When I used charms in the place of amulets, the drops stopped.
I feel like studying this seed stuff (and documenting specific variable processes) is the future of Diablo 2 content, and you seem to be leading the charge.
that is crazy to me that we can reproduce these variable to get the loot we want! Amazing video cant wait see what kind of variable people will come up with for the best drop possible
Time to fill my inventory with every kind of Sacred Armor (White, socketed, rare charsi food, Templars) and hope the game takes a hint what I'm missing ;)
On the BER seed, when you find the Ber rune. Go to the left house with the 2 super chests, walk inbetween the chests and open the left one. If it's locked it drops a flawless Sapphire and flawless ruby. Exactly what you need to upgrade Ber to Jah and Jah to Cham.
Amazing stuff. The people that made this game are absolutely brilliant. And the people that upgraded it to resurrectedb(Vicarious) are absolutely talented.
It's cool to learn that each game you play determines if you will be successful meaning there is no true meaning to any of the values to drop chances for items Meaning depending on what seeds a player gets you have a chance of getting something in XyZ time frames and it's a time frame : Pokémon fire red manipulation (what frame do you XyZ on to get shiny Pokémon) Generally intrigued by this wonder how to manipulate crafting if possible or drops modifiers Example another what steps and paths ways of different methods equal the same results on different seeds What happens whenever you start a new character in X time frame
I saw you use your technique to get an awesome 7%MF + 9%LR small charm and I spent a lot of time figuring out how to replicate that. In the process, and using that same seed you used to get the Ber rune drops, I was able to get unique rings to drop from a corpse. After a lot of experimentation, I was able to manipulate it to get any unique ring to drop. It has been raining SoJ's on me today. I had only found one of those ever before. Thanks man.
@@martin0079 I didn't see this until a month after you asked. I have made videos but to be honest, it will be hard for you to replicate it. I made about 30 soj's in the end as well as every kind of unique ring except Bul Kathos. Never did figure that one out. I was actually going for charms when I figured it out. All you have to do is find a seed (I used the Ber rune one) and find a way to get a unique ring to drop from any chest or corpse right off the bat. You can probably do it anywhere. Your level and items you are wearing, items your merc is wearing, stash, shared stash, and belt are all counted towards your random seed. So you strip down to nothing. Empty stash, empty belt, etc. Then you start adding items back in. Stop when the unique ring drops. Every time you pick up a ring you will have to give it to a mule, you can't change anything. But once the ring drops the game is trying to decide what kind of ring to give you and that is the tricky part. I learned to wiggle and take slightly altering paths before clicking the corpse. Every step changed the rolls or type of ring as well as the amount of gold the chest dropped. It took me a few days to find 3 or 4 paths that would make an soj (which luckily has no variations, unlike the other rings). I used a level 84 paladin, solo offline, hardcore (hardcore doesn't matter, I did it in softcore too).
I checked players 4 with merc from 0-450 items. Here are some worthy drops (Accounting for human error, you may need to lower listed item count by up to six items. Didn't have time nor energy to double check it all hehe) - 20 life = 23, 52, 53, 87(+12 mana), 136, 145, 266, 285, 320 - 17 mana = 82 (+7mf), 88, 119 - 7 MF = 82 (+17 mana), 249, 326, 330 326 & 330 have been double checked. 7 mf + 9 lighting res. Side note. There was a 5 to all res but for some reason I didn't note what item count it was... oops
Keep it up. And sadly as a console user at the mo, I’m very glad you confirmed it does work on consoles too. Obviously I can’t choose a seed code but finding a good one myself is half the fun.
I'm having a bit of trouble with this. I'm playing on single player console and i cannot, under any circumstances, get repeated drops from these chests. I tried for 6 or so hours, runs and runs and runs, to just get one repeated super chest drop. The only thing that I can reliably replicate are armor and weapon racks. I couldn't fine any version of WP/poppable/superchest runs that would repeat this across any player counts. I've found out the reason for this. It's functionally impossible on console as far as I'm aware. The -seed command locks everything, including drops. Without the -seed command the drops aren't as formulaic as what's shown in these videos. Even with a static map, the drops are still "random".
On the seed with the Ber rune drop there is also a LO rune drop at lvl 3 of Halls of pain. As soon as you enter lvl 3 to the right spawns archers that drop LO....11 LO's in 1 hr. Go to WP Tele to lvl 3 Skelly archers to the right....players 1
Load game to a start in Act 3. Run straight to waypoint. Go to act 1, Cat lvl 2. Then go act 2, Canyon of the Magi. Then go Act 4, River of Flame. Then go Lower Kurast. The tele to chest. You get a Mal rune. I do it as quick as I can. If I slow a bit, I'll get other drops. Mind blowing. This changes Magic Finding in this game forever. This is unreal.
Players 3, btw. And somehow I messed with the variables, cause now I get a small crescent and a great helm. I wonder if what I picked in a failed run changes the variables (i.e. I now am carrying 3 amulets that dropped in prior failed runs).
@GGMentor I find this absolutely fascinating. I was interested in you mentioning the possibility of time being a factor. I tried starting in Act 4 at Pandemonium Fortress, and it seems that the time you wait before entering the LK waypoint manipulates the drop of that same chest you were using for the small charms. I kept no items, just ID them and toss them to check if the stats were the same. Time 0 would be as soon as the game loads. If you keep the time that elapses before you enter the LK waypoint from Pandemonium Fortress consistent you will duplicate the chest drops. As an example let's say your game loads and you enter LK within the first 5 seconds (I used Telekinesis for simplicity) you will get the same drops every time. If you wait 10 seconds before entering LK, you will get a different set of drops, but they will be the same as the items you drop every time you enter at 10 seconds. It seems like there is a window for each set of drops and you don't necessarily need to be exact on the times you enter LK you just need to be within a particular time interval/window (i.e. entering at 8, 9, 10 seconds could produce the same result). However, the precise intervals would have to be tested. This is interesting because time doesn't seem to matter when you start in Act 3, but when you start in Act 4 and go into LK things are time sensitive (I wonder if this is also seed dependent). It would be interesting to see if this time dependency could be extended to things like rolling rune words. Note that I used the same seed in your video and players settings seems to have the same effect as you described.
He's removed the time variable out of the equation with the -seed command. if he uses the -seed command it will always have the same start time of when the original seed was created. It's why he's getting the same drops over and over again but If you do LK runs normally without -seed your drops will be random again.
@@lildavo87 I believe I was using the seed command as well except I started in Act 4 and then travelled to Act 3 LK. The reason I did this test is because I think most people that do LK farming travel to Act 4 before exiting out. I just happened to stumble upon time potentially being a variable here, but again would need more testing. So in my case after I load my game and start in Act 4, depending on the amount of time I take to enter LK controls the type of drop from the chest.
This could explain why some people go 20 years never finding something. If they always play the same way, they're never going to find that Jah rune that requires them to do something they never do.
"Ive been playing for 20 years and never found _____" Well thats because you left a potion on the ground and summoned a wolf. Haha Jk, this is cool under the hood info.
Incredible offline guides incoming. But imagine the similarities to minecraft. As far as speed runs go, finding the proper seed to get the efficient drops needed to save minutes on offline runs. A few proper clicks in the first act could save so many countess runs just farming early runes.
RNG are series of numbers. With the seed controlled you get the same series every single time. Game uses one number at a time. You can control the RNG of the precise event in the game (item roll) by controlling how many times you have requested a new RNG number and thus the exact number from the series which is used for your target roll. I say it again: you are merely using the option of the game which was created to supply a fair playing ground for competitions, where everybody gets exactly the same RNG. It creates a repeatable game so obviously, if you repeat actions you get the same results. I'm guessing you have a string of numbers from RNG seed which you then pull one by one. This resets every game. However, you don't want to have the same drop from the same chest every game, so it needs to change somehow. The game doesn't keep a counter of how many games you have created so it needs something else, some kind of personalized secondary seed. It cannot be determined by the state of the world because that is coming from the seed, so it would create a circular dependency. It has to come from the character. For chests player count has to be a completely different loot table because they don't have a no-drop chance to control the number of items dropping. None of this will work online where you get a new seed every game.
You know what dude, this might work on single player on console, a few month’s ago I was doing trav runs + lower Kurast and one of the armor racks kept giving me a ghost spear, I did the same run with the same pattern and always a damn ghost spear, now I see why lol, thanks for testing this
Love this content, so interesting. I'm trying to explore that p7 LK more, I've found that I can occasionally get a grey shako to drop from the western weapon rack, trying to figure out how to reproduce it every time, hoping if I can I can try playing with the rarity to see if eventually can get a significant chance at the Harlequin shako.
@@GGMentorAt players3 if you take WP to City of the Damned and then to LK I found that the chest will sometimes not require a key. And in these instances, it drops a blue spiderweb sash for me. Along with 2 other blues. I tried varying my MF number, doesn't seem to affect it at all ... always the 3 blues. Can't really figure out what the variables are.
I wish I had been paying attention more. On one of my runs to get a Ber rune I clicked on that first skeleton and got a unique ring. It was a nagerling but now I wonder if it was simply "unique ring" and could have been an SoJ? Trying to figure out exactly what was in my stash (less Ber runes) and inventory might be hard.
This may explain my recent Summoner Druid experience. Had 300+ magic find for 90% of the game and found no uniques and very few set items all the way though nightmare. I abandoned the character because of his dud status at that point. Once you figure all this out, Blizzard will put one random variable on all drops, of course. Makes me wonder if drop calculators are actually accurate.
I see a lot of problems for isolating desired variables. The biggest 1 would probably be figuring out if two different seeds can generate identical drop patterns. This content is awesome.. reverse engineering in offline mode might break online mode if too much is discovered though.
I think you could determine the online seed by doing some action sequence online and trying which offline seed produces the same results for the same action sequence. But that might be virtually impossible without some kind of offline automation
I think using offline to find the seeds online is possible as well, but would be very tedious and a lot of database work to record it all down. Once the genie is let out of that bottle lol, God help us.
I do recall d3 having a similar loot table thing where only certain items would drop depending on the game. It would be interesting to see if it's a table or a pyramid as you've described.
This is amazing, and honestly I am surprised that it hasn't been found out before until now or if it has it just wasn't made public lol. Correct me if I am wrong though but with the shared stash taking affect on the variables, wouldn't that mean that this is all new to resurrected then? Because prior to resurrected there wasn't a shared stash, Just a stash for each character that's why we had to mule games so much to move things around. If that's the case then it kinda answered my question of why it hasn't been found out in so many years because it may not have existed prier to resurrected.
I been testing and trying to get this to work on console but it does not. I have a map layout where the chest is. 1 TP north of WP similiar to yours and the items are always different. I do nothing different between runs but the items are always random. I think console is different and slightly changes things everytime you load the game, i noticed chests will be in slightly different spots or not there at all. Makes me think the devolpers changed something slightly between Pc and console.
It doesn't work on PC either if you remove the -seed parameter. It is a debugging option for dev. Remove the option and try it on single player, you won't get the same chest drops even with the same "variables".
Ah, thanks that makes sense. It crossed my mind that might be the reason but I do not have a pc to test that on. Idk why he keeps saying it works on console because it definitely doesn't.
Yea this definitely doesn’t work on console without the ability to input a seed code. The map stays the same but even if every action taken is the same the items in the chest is different.
The items on the ground test wont work with potions because they dont have an item ID. this will be the same with some White item bases that drop that dont have item ids. If you refer back to the time on legacy when the public dupe was available this system for what does/doesnt have an item id has been sorted out in detail somewhere. I remember you can take for example a White Armor base: Base has no sockets= no item id Duplicating a base with no sockets has no effect on popping dupes(they are perm) Adding sockets to the base gives it an item ID Duplicating a socketed base will create an unperm base(duplicate ID) A second example: Creating Legit Runes from Dupes using unperm base runes(end result always gets its own ID) These are for legacy but the ID's should work the same. D2Legit back in the day had a way to get the seed# for online games which allowed them to always have every item via bots.
I guess I should add that the game doesnt count items with no id from the ground but it does count toward the total from inv/stash/etc.. The game was designed for 56k internet so to reduce latency some items had id's removed. im assuming this is going to be part of what causes issues calculating this number which is why I said to look up the old public dupe from legacy. they already did a good bit of the legwork on this part. @GGMentor
Can you replicate any of the steps with using the -seed command? If you remove the -seed command now you will still have the same map. Try getting the ber rune without the -seed command
Mal rune TIP! On that same seed I have found a bit of a Mal rune hack but I need help refining it. I have found 5 of them in about 45 minutes like this. Players 1 Hell difficulty same seed as Ber rune. Start in town 1. Waypoint to catacombs level two then immediately waypoint to black marsh. I teleport about 3 or 4 times to the north (1 o’clock direction) word the tower and kill the pack archers and stuff. Collected 5 Mal runes but only about one in 15 or so runs. I bet there is a way to refine it. Help me out. Thanks.
i was only able to give it a few attempts before going to bed. plan to give it some more time after work. but just that i was almost instantly able to find a mal where this guy told me you can find mals...doesnt strike me as a fluke. and this path would be quicker and less complex than the ber path, so i would imagine someome should be able to figure it out before too long
I can get a Mal on players 3. Start act3. WP to Cata 2. WP to Canyon of the Magi. WP to River of Flame. Then LK and tele straight to chest. Its not consistent ... but I did get 10 Mals in like 30 mins. I tried to time it, but doesnt seem to be entirely time related. Trying to understand the variables here...
Interesting bit with the stat rolls... another variable I don't think I saw you test or explain clearly was if the stat roll outcome is determined by number of items or the space occupied by items. For instance, 2 small charms occupies the space of 1 large charm, so does it go by the number of items or the space occupied by items? The same idea may extend to when you did the socketed test regarding a spirit shield vs 4-socket unsocketed, as the unsocketed item could be interpreted as "empty space".
So could you find an sacred rondache stand and manipulate your stash till it’s eth and 45 res or a cryptic axe one until you get a whatever socket eth tomb reaver with max damage or whatever?
Very interesting, and correct. There's no true RNG; only changing base factors. I don't know, but I assume this is how bots farmed SoJs back in the day, in addition to lag duping ofc. Even though I hate farming and would love for shortcuts to gear, I also feel like the loot grind is the last bastion of D2 relevancy. If we effectively crack the itemization, let's say with help of AI, then what's the point to 80% of the game for the majority of D2 players... I actually don't know if I want this to be found out 😱😭
I feel that man. Finding that one good drop has a sense of accomplishment. Just these days between work and social life i dont have the time anymore that i had 20 years ago. Now farming for runes feels more like a chore. This provides me with a shortcut to good items and new motivation to hunt for the runeword bases. Its brought back a fun factor that was slowly eroding. Also this is just very interesting and amazing the way this works.
I managed to get 22 Bers in 1 hour. With some more teleports and 40frw but a timing around 16 seconds from WP LK to the chest following your path. It's actually strange how sometimes it works a few times back to back and then 10 times no more. When I had a full belt I never got a Ber but that could be a coincidence.
I just started playing again... I have d2r on both PC and Switch. This just peaked my interest for sure, thank you for sharing your finds man. I'll have to do some testing of my own. Is there a Discord channel where folks can share findings?
My core question, especially considering your angle that the game is alive and interacting, is the # just included as part of the RNG system of loot rolling in order to keep the randomness intact? Or could you theorhetically MAP the entire input database
@@ChrisRasmussen13 I think that with a very large amount of effort you could map it out yes. The issue is that since which path the input takes depends on your actions the total number of possibilities is nearly endless
Hey, Ginger. I tried this. I believe "what variable affects what" is also determined randomly. I mean, I can get the same charm repeatedly, but I can't get a charm next time if I pick it up. Instead, loot changed and again, it was consistent. So, number of items in your "anywhere" als changed loot.
So you're convoluting what's going on. You can get the same charm over and over even if you pick it up but you have to drop something else. If you are at item count 100 and pick up the charm and keep it now you are at item count 101. If you drop 1 item you are back to 100 and the same charm will drop again
man im so hooked, but can you say what is better? more items in the inventory and stash or less? im the horder/keeping everything organised guy and would like to know if i should essentially swap all my items to mules to get better drops? what ur doing is great work love the videos!
There is no better or worse. All of those variables are combined into a number, and that number is the item from the loot table. There is no good or better trend, there is a PERFECT set of variables for your ber or for the item that you want
So I got to testing and... I'm running a 55frw 237 mf barb. I go to spider forest and pop all cocoons around wp then go to trav, run to the chest outside and it will drop a unique long battle bow and unique amulet, I got all unique amulets in about 60 runs. Potions in slot seem to effect monsters around spider forest wp . It's set on players 3.
Im not so sure about what you said about console versions. As you cant set a seed, there are slight variations, with chest spawns and monster spawns. Which means different stuff spawns everytime so the RNG has a different sequence each time. Im currently testing on PC sp as im at work but I have yet to replicate anything. Ill try and do so on Console when I get home but what I'v done so far on console has never replicated the drops.
I think console rolls things different I cant get any items to be consistent little things change everytime even tho the map seed is supposed to be the same. I have a map layout just like his, one tp and I'm at chest but the items are always random even tho I'm doing the exact same thing everytime
Chests should be pretty random (around 65k possible drops per two players settings) but weapon/armor racks should be a bit more stable, that is if it is coded the same way.
good chances systems are the same for online. my guess is time is the determining factor there. it’s either the local time, or time spend in the game. so exciting cool stuff you are doing here! pitty it does do nothing for online (yet). :) cheers
im pretty sure it are the sames, the only difference is you don't know which seed are you at hahah so id say the goal on online is first being able to know on what seed are you playing
@@Diegoreturns i don't know about seeds solely. ok it's the remaster... but the original code goes back into the late 90s, maybe 2000. i think coding-wise seeding was not a thing back than. they rather generated "seeds" based on time measures, stamps and codes. yeah... that doesn't help a ton :D haha... but still...
Seed is influenced by time. Since he's using the -seed command it ignores the time variable in the RNG and will always have the same time variable of when the original seed was created. This is why it doesn't work in single player either unless you're using the -seed command.
@@lildavo87 anyway ive been playing d2 for many years and Im not proud (i play now in single player) but I used to bot back in the days Developers could (maybe) develope addons that would recognize wich seed you're playing at and literally display what items are you going to loot/obtain
I was unable to find that sweet lighting + magic find charm. Tried copying your inventory exactly but it never came. I did find a few other interesting charms but maybe I have to copy you shared stashes exactly as well? That would be tough.
so what I am doing isn't technically duping, I just used that for a buzzword to attract attention. True duping is a method by which you duplicate an item directly. This is controlling variables so the same item drops twice.
@@GGMentor Sorry didn't mean to imply you were duping. We know "duping" (even online) still exists however. My theory being that maybe we are misinterpreting "duping" or the method of producing multiple identical items.
You broke the game … GG man this is indeed fascinating. Are there any general advices on how to farm from now on ? Should i start interacting with all chests armour racks etc. what should i keep in my stash tabs. How to maximise my loot drop ?
So on pc if you do not set a seed code I think the seed gets reset when you save/exit. You can't get the same item over and over the same way as setting a seed.
Yes and no. I've also gotten different loot when farming for items and it changed often when no seed was set. *But* i also often get the same item from armor racks and once 3 games in a row i got a set crown from a skeleton.
I've been able to find the path to traverse on this seed to get a shako to drop from that western armor rack, I put a short video up showing the path on a couple of runs through the path if anyone wants to play around with it too. I've not gotten the Harlequin Crest to drop from it yet, but have gotten the grey, white and superior base shakos to drop from it so far.
This only works with the -seed option. Remove it and every game creation on single player will change your seed code. Using the -seed option is for debugging and can create weird behaviors.
Lovin' this little "series" if you can call it that. This has incredible implications even online. I'm wondering if, by studying multiple seeds, we can assess a certain set of actions that most commonly leads to better "chunks". If that makes sense. Could allow us to roll GG runewords on command, etc.
Currently doing extensive research with rolling rune words. Nothing seems to affect the roll besides game seed. But you can roll them very consistently. All we need now is a way to tell what seed we're on online and we can test a runeword roll on SP before we do it live!
very good point on the rolling runewords, Quite interesting. I am curious as well as to how we could get the seed code for a game?
Good idea on using SP to test what the seed code is capable of
So if only game seed effects roll, if you roll a 664 CTA could you roll multiple at the same game
@@GGMentor If the seed code is even sent to the player client in multiplayer (which I highly doubt since most of the rng/drop calculations are going to be done server side, but it is possible), it would likely need a specialized packet sniffer / data extraction program to identify it.
Considering the sheer amount of items in the drop table and all the variables that affect item drop quality, I don't think it will be very feasible to do any extensive control testing beyond simple actions like "load in and proceed to chest at x location in 1-3 amount of steps to get this one specific item" on single player controlled seeds. Trying to reverse engineer the exact details of the seeding system and RNG logic and applying that to a multiplayer game would require a program with an encyclopedic amount of knowledge.
Try reroll runeword after u visit another waypoint. See if you get consistent results.
I got a LO rune scenario but i couldent reproduce it again.
I think is has to do with how maps are created. Check that in speed run videos. Check if rolls are influenced by the zone loaded just before. Travel to a wp the to town. Save and exit, check if roll changes if you load another zone in the new game.
I think it is tied to maps.
A bot that does things clockwork will tell if this is the case...
D2 will never die
Data mining FTW. I did NOT expect to learn this about the game 20+ years later. I hope you will continue the hunt!
The fact that playstyle impacts drops and everything, is just amazing, since this game was made nearly 25 years ago. Explains why so many still play it including myself. I’ve tried other ARPGs but they just don’t feel the same as D2. This is seriously fascinating.
I seriously think this might very well be the reason D2 has stayed fresh and fun despite time. because the experience changes from person to person, and when people get together undoubtedly the experience changes even further. Also As you grow and become better at the game it changes again.
I think it's also why you can have great success in this game by playing P1 all the way to P8, rolling multiple characters or just one, clearing several areas or just farming the same boss over and over.
For me this information makes this game worst. Because now it feels there is no real RNG if u can manipulate the outcome.
@@LeoFINuTube i get that, but you can't really manipulate anything when you play.
there's no way to know the amount of variables and what seed you are on that determine everything that drops. Just play the game with different builds how you wanna play it. Ive never worried about the seed, or item inventory, or which way point i went to first, or how much time i took to open a chest and i have made tons of builds, found several high runes and lots of items worth high runes. All on P1 as well.
Great work so far. Let's all keep working on this. Discovering more about D2's mechanics makes this game more and more interesting to play.
The -seed command has been known since very early versions of the OG D2. There is of course a good reason why this command, along with the -act(x) command is banned from the forum I frequent. If you were to remove the -seed command, the map will still stay the same, but your drops will be random again, within the odds of 16 bits (65,536 different rolls/drops) per chest [EDIT: *not* "per chest", ALL the chests share the same 16-bit seed for that act, regardless of map] per 2 simulated players in the game. Objects (clickable stuff that are not chests, and chests in act 5) have 32 bit seeds, so much more random.
This was heavily studied back when LoD first dropped, and by people like me who like to "time travel" to get the good stuff no longer available in newer patches. Racks were the way to go back then, since MF was broken, act boss drops except from normal difficulty were broken, and the TC system was unfinished (drops stopped at TC 66 or 69, but there were items all the way up to TC90). But racks don't use the TC system, so they were the ONLY source of certain overpowered uniques like Grandfather, Arkaines Valor, etc. which have way way higher stats than their current versions.
About cheating or not cheating, that is every man for himself. I wouldn't do this, but then again I use a mule program to save thousands of items that I found by my own perception of legitimacy.
Yup the -seed command is the only way to get the same drops from the same steps over and over.
Your comment isn't up far enough. I've done thousands of LK runs in the exact same pattern, I would have noticed pretty quick if the same things were dropping over and over again. The only reason this works is the -seed command.
Thank you for this!
@@lildavo87 Thanks for your endorsement. I've done tens of thousands; enough to see that the 16-bit seed is indeed true for chests (all chests, including the ones in huts by the campfire(s) that drop loads). The high runes are the key to seeing this, as you are much more likely to make a screenshot of one dropping. The items dropping along with them are always the same patterns. Harder to detect the more common the rune, but I believe 1.10 had something like 2 Ber patterns, and very few of the others at players8.
What was really interesting to investigate was patch 1.09b, where you could set players command all the way up to players64 (yes, without the / at that time). Very long story very short: Don't bother running LK in 1.09b.
for science! love this series of observations, dude
20:38 Hell yeah, I'm gonna play with the "variables" (player count, etc.). Thanks, GGM. You are a trailblazer in research. This is the game within the game!
This was very interesting. Being able to see more things about a game I was already enjoying is great.
Callin this game alive gives me goosebumps and chills at the same time. Its realy one incredibly build game. Super old and still got that spark that you cant find anywhere in other games.
You Sir are a Gawd! This explains why D2 has kept my interest for all these years
Im hooked. We need to go deeper.
Looking at mercenary movement might help in finding how big a chunk is.
While they genrally do a good job at keeping close. I've noticed they sometimes act very weird. Like I'd take 1 step and they'd walk to the other side of the screen even past enemies who attack them. And in those spots I've tried to run around to get them to stay close, but they either don't move at all or move to the other side of the screen.
Haven't done real testing. But my guess is mercenaries are programed to stay in the chunk you're in. And crossing between them can cause such extreme movements. Most obvious cases I've seen in some of the dungeon levels, with clear defined rooms. Where passing trough the door will cause the merc to go to center of the room regadless of enemies. It might be easier to see with archer or mage merc. Since they can usully attack from where they're standing, so when they walk you know they are not trying to attack.
Or maybe their movement isn't based on chunks but "sub-chunks" or "rooms", or some other sort of sub-division.
Back in the day before LOD expansion, an identified item that was present in the loaded game would prevent that same item from dropping. so it was a 100% guarantee that you would roll an SOJ if you had a Nagel and a manald ID’d and present in the game at the time you identified a unique ring.
@@Brentgilbertstudio this is sick, actually. I mean how often do you pass an item to a mule to free up inventory... and get the same one pretty soon.
Did you learn that the drop moment or identification moment is when the magic item gets its attributes/name?
Loved this analysis along with the ber rune exploit, delving into how the game works to its core is fascinating, love your content
Now I understand why I dropped multiple Hone Sundan Yari (10+) while farming hell act I pit, stony field and tower.
26:27 Groundhog day
This is so awesome. I always loved digging deep into the game mechanics.
Wondered why I find 3 kraken shells in a row.
This brings us closer to understanding the game.
Love it.
with Ai and thousands of hours of gameplay
I think it's possible could "see" into the coding in advance for loot.
The game basically operates on elaborate Lists that criss cross each other
creating the illusion of RNG but it's pre-coded.
But online would be a different situation since additional uncontrollable variables can apply
for example, number of games/players/time of day
However it's not infinite, which means AI could do the job in theory.
It would be too time consuming to manually learn every variable.
Very interesting indeed! I personally really enjoy the breakdowns and information, thank you sir
I found I Gul rune beyond the same run as the Ber rune. It is very difficult and I have only been able to repeat it about 11 times in four hours of trying, which is still really good. I have been trying to get the Ber and the Gul on the same run with no success. I can tell you the further out from the starting point the harder the repeatability of the desired drop. You can also get the Ber rune without touching anything. It is about what you have in your inventory and the chunk loadout and/or the precise path that you take to the desired drop. Speed is not a factor but it helps for repeatability. Clicking on chest, skeletons, super chests and other items only helps with repeating the same bath every run. The Ber rune has a window where I can collect about 4 of them and keep them in my inventory before the window closes. Each Ber rune in my inventory shortens/lengthens or changes the path by a fraction to get the next Ber rune to drop, then the window closes and you must remove the runes from your inventory and start again. I have multiple videos on the gul rune path that I have not perfected and really just borders on getting lucky. Ginger if you would like me to share with you the videos I have collected, I would be more than willing to share them with you. I absolutely find this experiment fascinating and amazing how finite the variables are to repeating a singular event. One misstep in the beginning can send you down a completely different path.
I had noticed something similar to your Ber-rune-in-inventory theory but I was using rare amulets that I picked up. When I had 1-4 of them in my inventory, I had a much easier time gettting the Ber rune drop. When I used charms in the place of amulets, the drops stopped.
I also go the gul rune, but I was moving around the map when I did so I can't repeat it.
I feel like studying this seed stuff (and documenting specific variable processes) is the future of Diablo 2 content, and you seem to be leading the charge.
We might have to setup a project with data collection.
Could be interesting to document
Please make more of this historically epic content.
This is super interesting!
Keep up the good work 👍🏼
that is crazy to me that we can reproduce these variable to get the loot we want! Amazing video cant wait see what kind of variable people will come up with for the best drop possible
Time to fill my inventory with every kind of Sacred Armor (White, socketed, rare charsi food, Templars) and hope the game takes a hint what I'm missing ;)
I was in disbelief at first. Thanks for the video
This is pretty wild and seems like a monumental undertaking. Curious to see where this goes.
Very thoughtful and interesting. Yes please continue ;). It is also philosophical as if we are talking about our lives, our world.
On the BER seed, when you find the Ber rune. Go to the left house with the 2 super chests, walk inbetween the chests and open the left one.
If it's locked it drops a flawless Sapphire and flawless ruby.
Exactly what you need to upgrade Ber to Jah and Jah to Cham.
Amazing stuff. The people that made this game are absolutely brilliant. And the people that upgraded it to resurrectedb(Vicarious) are absolutely talented.
It's cool to learn that each game you play determines if you will be successful meaning there is no true meaning to any of the values to drop chances for items
Meaning depending on what seeds a player gets you have a chance of getting something in XyZ time frames and it's a time frame : Pokémon fire red manipulation (what frame do you XyZ on to get shiny Pokémon)
Generally intrigued by this wonder how to manipulate crafting if possible or drops modifiers
Example another what steps and paths ways of different methods equal the same results on different seeds
What happens whenever you start a new character in X time frame
very informative! now i just have to remember how i get buch of Lo runes 20 years ago and do it again! thanks!
I saw you use your technique to get an awesome 7%MF + 9%LR small charm and I spent a lot of time figuring out how to replicate that. In the process, and using that same seed you used to get the Ber rune drops, I was able to get unique rings to drop from a corpse. After a lot of experimentation, I was able to manipulate it to get any unique ring to drop. It has been raining SoJ's on me today. I had only found one of those ever before. Thanks man.
Care to share your path?
@@martin0079 I didn't see this until a month after you asked. I have made videos but to be honest, it will be hard for you to replicate it. I made about 30 soj's in the end as well as every kind of unique ring except Bul Kathos. Never did figure that one out. I was actually going for charms when I figured it out. All you have to do is find a seed (I used the Ber rune one) and find a way to get a unique ring to drop from any chest or corpse right off the bat. You can probably do it anywhere. Your level and items you are wearing, items your merc is wearing, stash, shared stash, and belt are all counted towards your random seed. So you strip down to nothing. Empty stash, empty belt, etc. Then you start adding items back in. Stop when the unique ring drops. Every time you pick up a ring you will have to give it to a mule, you can't change anything. But once the ring drops the game is trying to decide what kind of ring to give you and that is the tricky part. I learned to wiggle and take slightly altering paths before clicking the corpse. Every step changed the rolls or type of ring as well as the amount of gold the chest dropped. It took me a few days to find 3 or 4 paths that would make an soj (which luckily has no variations, unlike the other rings). I used a level 84 paladin, solo offline, hardcore (hardcore doesn't matter, I did it in softcore too).
I checked players 4 with merc from 0-450 items. Here are some worthy drops (Accounting for human error, you may need to lower listed item count by up to six items. Didn't have time nor energy to double check it all hehe)
- 20 life = 23, 52, 53, 87(+12 mana), 136, 145, 266, 285, 320
- 17 mana = 82 (+7mf), 88, 119
- 7 MF = 82 (+17 mana), 249, 326, 330
326 & 330 have been double checked. 7 mf + 9 lighting res. Side note. There was a 5 to all res but for some reason I didn't note what item count it was... oops
nice finds, looks like you been having fun with the game manipulation =)
Keep it up. And sadly as a console user at the mo, I’m very glad you confirmed it does work on consoles too. Obviously I can’t choose a seed code but finding a good one myself is half the fun.
I'm having a bit of trouble with this. I'm playing on single player console and i cannot, under any circumstances, get repeated drops from these chests. I tried for 6 or so hours, runs and runs and runs, to just get one repeated super chest drop. The only thing that I can reliably replicate are armor and weapon racks. I couldn't fine any version of WP/poppable/superchest runs that would repeat this across any player counts.
I've found out the reason for this. It's functionally impossible on console as far as I'm aware. The -seed command locks everything, including drops. Without the -seed command the drops aren't as formulaic as what's shown in these videos. Even with a static map, the drops are still "random".
Playing on switch. Same conclusion.
Tried it also on PS5, kept all variables exactly the same, no recurring patterns
omg I want to burn all my PTO time at work now to mess with this - Thanks, hope to see more as this develops further.
This is crazy. Who would have thought
On the seed with the Ber rune drop there is also a LO rune drop at lvl 3 of Halls of pain. As soon as you enter lvl 3 to the right spawns archers that drop LO....11 LO's in 1 hr. Go to WP Tele to lvl 3 Skelly archers to the right....players 1
Niiiice
on rt facing the door or out from the door. Did three run and getting smoked with ghosts. however did drop one sur rune no lo. will contiue to test
Enter lvl 3 facing out to the right spawn skelly archers they drop LO@@duanek6051
I was wondering the same, just killing all the skele's around the square with blizz til I get a drop and will report
@@duanek6051
Facing out@@duanek6051
Load game to a start in Act 3. Run straight to waypoint. Go to act 1, Cat lvl 2. Then go act 2, Canyon of the Magi. Then go Act 4, River of Flame. Then go Lower Kurast. The tele to chest. You get a Mal rune. I do it as quick as I can. If I slow a bit, I'll get other drops. Mind blowing. This changes Magic Finding in this game forever. This is unreal.
Players 3, btw. And somehow I messed with the variables, cause now I get a small crescent and a great helm. I wonder if what I picked in a failed run changes the variables (i.e. I now am carrying 3 amulets that dropped in prior failed runs).
wow... I really don't know how to feel about this :P awesome work either way
Beautiful discovery!!
For science!!! Love the series, keep it going.
@GGMentor I find this absolutely fascinating. I was interested in you mentioning the possibility of time being a factor. I tried starting in Act 4 at Pandemonium Fortress, and it seems that the time you wait before entering the LK waypoint manipulates the drop of that same chest you were using for the small charms. I kept no items, just ID them and toss them to check if the stats were the same. Time 0 would be as soon as the game loads. If you keep the time that elapses before you enter the LK waypoint from Pandemonium Fortress consistent you will duplicate the chest drops. As an example let's say your game loads and you enter LK within the first 5 seconds (I used Telekinesis for simplicity) you will get the same drops every time. If you wait 10 seconds before entering LK, you will get a different set of drops, but they will be the same as the items you drop every time you enter at 10 seconds. It seems like there is a window for each set of drops and you don't necessarily need to be exact on the times you enter LK you just need to be within a particular time interval/window (i.e. entering at 8, 9, 10 seconds could produce the same result). However, the precise intervals would have to be tested. This is interesting because time doesn't seem to matter when you start in Act 3, but when you start in Act 4 and go into LK things are time sensitive (I wonder if this is also seed dependent). It would be interesting to see if this time dependency could be extended to things like rolling rune words. Note that I used the same seed in your video and players settings seems to have the same effect as you described.
He's removed the time variable out of the equation with the -seed command. if he uses the -seed command it will always have the same start time of when the original seed was created. It's why he's getting the same drops over and over again but If you do LK runs normally without -seed your drops will be random again.
@@lildavo87 I believe I was using the seed command as well except I started in Act 4 and then travelled to Act 3 LK. The reason I did this test is because I think most people that do LK farming travel to Act 4 before exiting out. I just happened to stumble upon time potentially being a variable here, but again would need more testing. So in my case after I load my game and start in Act 4, depending on the amount of time I take to enter LK controls the type of drop from the chest.
This could explain why some people go 20 years never finding something. If they always play the same way, they're never going to find that Jah rune that requires them to do something they never do.
Yup, lol
And also why everyone has that one friend that is so lucky it's insane.
"Ive been playing for 20 years and never found _____"
Well thats because you left a potion on the ground and summoned a wolf.
Haha Jk, this is cool under the hood info.
Yup
Incredible offline guides incoming. But imagine the similarities to minecraft. As far as speed runs go, finding the proper seed to get the efficient drops needed to save minutes on offline runs. A few proper clicks in the first act could save so many countess runs just farming early runes.
really nice finding, I see it same as you very very interesting
This if fascinating, don't let any haters dissuade you for 'cheating'. It's a peak behind the curtain of a very old and beloved game.
RNG are series of numbers. With the seed controlled you get the same series every single time. Game uses one number at a time. You can control the RNG of the precise event in the game (item roll) by controlling how many times you have requested a new RNG number and thus the exact number from the series which is used for your target roll.
I say it again: you are merely using the option of the game which was created to supply a fair playing ground for competitions, where everybody gets exactly the same RNG. It creates a repeatable game so obviously, if you repeat actions you get the same results.
I'm guessing you have a string of numbers from RNG seed which you then pull one by one. This resets every game. However, you don't want to have the same drop from the same chest every game, so it needs to change somehow. The game doesn't keep a counter of how many games you have created so it needs something else, some kind of personalized secondary seed. It cannot be determined by the state of the world because that is coming from the seed, so it would create a circular dependency. It has to come from the character.
For chests player count has to be a completely different loot table because they don't have a no-drop chance to control the number of items dropping.
None of this will work online where you get a new seed every game.
You know what dude, this might work on single player on console, a few month’s ago I was doing trav runs + lower Kurast and one of the armor racks kept giving me a ghost spear, I did the same run with the same pattern and always a damn ghost spear, now I see why lol, thanks for testing this
Works for weapon racks, but not for super chests on console so far
These last few videos have been super interesting! If you keep testing and creating videos ill keep watching
Love this content, so interesting. I'm trying to explore that p7 LK more, I've found that I can occasionally get a grey shako to drop from the western weapon rack, trying to figure out how to reproduce it every time, hoping if I can I can try playing with the rarity to see if eventually can get a significant chance at the Harlequin shako.
So grey shako is the base, then your magic find makes it unique.
So this is a situation where you force the base over and over until it rolls unique
@@GGMentorAt players3 if you take WP to City of the Damned and then to LK I found that the chest will sometimes not require a key. And in these instances, it drops a blue spiderweb sash for me. Along with 2 other blues. I tried varying my MF number, doesn't seem to affect it at all ... always the 3 blues. Can't really figure out what the variables are.
@@RafhnerEgamer so super chests are not affected by magic find it's random chance to roll rare set or unique
I wish I had been paying attention more. On one of my runs to get a Ber rune I clicked on that first skeleton and got a unique ring. It was a nagerling but now I wonder if it was simply "unique ring" and could have been an SoJ? Trying to figure out exactly what was in my stash (less Ber runes) and inventory might be hard.
23:04 ‘eld tir and steelclash’. Yupp that’s me.
I really like your take on this. I would like to see this on live.
Feels good having my perfectly rolled death in a 15% BA base
Niiiice
This may explain my recent Summoner Druid experience. Had 300+ magic find for 90% of the game and found no uniques and very few set items all the way though nightmare. I abandoned the character because of his dud status at that point. Once you figure all this out, Blizzard will put one random variable on all drops, of course. Makes me wonder if drop calculators are actually accurate.
Insane Stuff wowzerz!
I see a lot of problems for isolating desired variables. The biggest 1 would probably be figuring out if two different seeds can generate identical drop patterns.
This content is awesome.. reverse engineering in offline mode might break online mode if too much is discovered though.
Possible to see this applied to re rolling charms or crafting?
This game will never be the same
I think you could determine the online seed by doing some action sequence online and trying which offline seed produces the same results for the same action sequence. But that might be virtually impossible without some kind of offline automation
I think using offline to find the seeds online is possible as well, but would be very tedious and a lot of database work to record it all down.
Once the genie is let out of that bottle lol, God help us.
I love this !! Will rewatch your live stream. Please link them as well.
In the description
I do recall d3 having a similar loot table thing where only certain items would drop depending on the game. It would be interesting to see if it's a table or a pyramid as you've described.
This is amazing, and honestly I am surprised that it hasn't been found out before until now or if it has it just wasn't made public lol. Correct me if I am wrong though but with the shared stash taking affect on the variables, wouldn't that mean that this is all new to resurrected then? Because prior to resurrected there wasn't a shared stash, Just a stash for each character that's why we had to mule games so much to move things around. If that's the case then it kinda answered my question of why it hasn't been found out in so many years because it may not have existed prier to resurrected.
I been testing and trying to get this to work on console but it does not. I have a map layout where the chest is. 1 TP north of WP similiar to yours and the items are always different. I do nothing different between runs but the items are always random. I think console is different and slightly changes things everytime you load the game, i noticed chests will be in slightly different spots or not there at all. Makes me think the devolpers changed something slightly between Pc and console.
It doesn't work on PC either if you remove the -seed parameter. It is a debugging option for dev. Remove the option and try it on single player, you won't get the same chest drops even with the same "variables".
Ah, thanks that makes sense. It crossed my mind that might be the reason but I do not have a pc to test that on. Idk why he keeps saying it works on console because it definitely doesn't.
I don't know consoles, but I really doubt that the -seed command can even be used.
great video, distracted by the faces you were making the whole time though
lol
Yea this definitely doesn’t work on console without the ability to input a seed code. The map stays the same but even if every action taken is the same the items in the chest is different.
Always to the East, nice work
The items on the ground test wont work with potions because they dont have an item ID. this will be the same with some White item bases that drop that dont have item ids. If you refer back to the time on legacy when the public dupe was available this system for what does/doesnt have an item id has been sorted out in detail somewhere.
I remember you can take for example a White Armor base:
Base has no sockets= no item id
Duplicating a base with no sockets has no effect on popping dupes(they are perm)
Adding sockets to the base gives it an item ID
Duplicating a socketed base will create an unperm base(duplicate ID)
A second example: Creating Legit Runes from Dupes using unperm base runes(end result always gets its own ID)
These are for legacy but the ID's should work the same. D2Legit back in the day had a way to get the seed# for online games which allowed them to always have every item via bots.
I guess I should add that the game doesnt count items with no id from the ground but it does count toward the total from inv/stash/etc..
The game was designed for 56k internet so to reduce latency some items had id's removed. im assuming this is going to be part of what causes issues calculating this number which is why I said to look up the old public dupe from legacy. they already did a good bit of the legwork on this part.
@GGMentor
Can you replicate any of the steps with using the -seed command? If you remove the -seed command now you will still have the same map. Try getting the ber rune without the -seed command
How's the health, Ginger? In most of your videos I notice you mute the mic a lot to burp, or something. I hope you're doing okay.
Mal rune TIP! On that same seed I have found a bit of a Mal rune hack but I need help refining it. I have found 5 of them in about 45 minutes like this. Players 1 Hell difficulty same seed as Ber rune. Start in town 1. Waypoint to catacombs level two then immediately waypoint to black marsh. I teleport about 3 or 4 times to the north (1 o’clock direction) word the tower and kill the pack archers and stuff. Collected 5 Mal runes but only about one in 15 or so runs. I bet there is a way to refine it. Help me out.
Thanks.
this worked for me on my 2nd attempt. def something there. nice find!!
@@cleb6837 were you able to get this to work regularly?
i was only able to give it a few attempts before going to bed. plan to give it some more time after work. but just that i was almost instantly able to find a mal where this guy told me you can find mals...doesnt strike me as a fluke. and this path would be quicker and less complex than the ber path, so i would imagine someome should be able to figure it out before too long
I can get a Mal on players 3. Start act3. WP to Cata 2. WP to Canyon of the Magi. WP to River of Flame. Then LK and tele straight to chest. Its not consistent ... but I did get 10 Mals in like 30 mins. I tried to time it, but doesnt seem to be entirely time related. Trying to understand the variables here...
@@RafhnerEgamerwhich chest??
Interesting bit with the stat rolls... another variable I don't think I saw you test or explain clearly was if the stat roll outcome is determined by number of items or the space occupied by items. For instance, 2 small charms occupies the space of 1 large charm, so does it go by the number of items or the space occupied by items? The same idea may extend to when you did the socketed test regarding a spirit shield vs 4-socket unsocketed, as the unsocketed item could be interpreted as "empty space".
I wonder if it’s just tied to the memory addresses or something and how they get populated in a fresh game.
So could you find an sacred rondache stand and manipulate your stash till it’s eth and 45 res or a cryptic axe one until you get a whatever socket eth tomb reaver with max damage or whatever?
y'all out here reengineering the game hahah awesome
Very interesting, and correct. There's no true RNG; only changing base factors. I don't know, but I assume this is how bots farmed SoJs back in the day, in addition to lag duping ofc.
Even though I hate farming and would love for shortcuts to gear, I also feel like the loot grind is the last bastion of D2 relevancy. If we effectively crack the itemization, let's say with help of AI, then what's the point to 80% of the game for the majority of D2 players... I actually don't know if I want this to be found out 😱😭
I feel that man. Finding that one good drop has a sense of accomplishment.
Just these days between work and social life i dont have the time anymore that i had 20 years ago.
Now farming for runes feels more like a chore. This provides me with a shortcut to good items and new motivation to hunt for the runeword bases.
Its brought back a fun factor that was slowly eroding.
Also this is just very interesting and amazing the way this works.
I managed to get 22 Bers in 1 hour. With some more teleports and 40frw but a timing around 16 seconds from WP LK to the chest following your path. It's actually strange how sometimes it works a few times back to back and then 10 times no more. When I had a full belt I never got a Ber but that could be a coincidence.
I just started playing again... I have d2r on both PC and Switch. This just peaked my interest for sure, thank you for sharing your finds man. I'll have to do some testing of my own. Is there a Discord channel where folks can share findings?
My core question, especially considering your angle that the game is alive and interacting, is the # just included as part of the RNG system of loot rolling in order to keep the randomness intact? Or could you theorhetically MAP the entire input database
@@ChrisRasmussen13 I think that with a very large amount of effort you could map it out yes.
The issue is that since which path the input takes depends on your actions the total number of possibilities is nearly endless
Hey, Ginger. I tried this. I believe "what variable affects what" is also determined randomly. I mean, I can get the same charm repeatedly, but I can't get a charm next time if I pick it up. Instead, loot changed and again, it was consistent.
So, number of items in your "anywhere" als changed loot.
So you're convoluting what's going on.
You can get the same charm over and over even if you pick it up but you have to drop something else.
If you are at item count 100 and pick up the charm and keep it now you are at item count 101.
If you drop 1 item you are back to 100 and the same charm will drop again
I love how you deliver everything lol, just the perfect amount of sass
Dear Red Haired Ginger,
You are a cheetah. 4 Legs, big teeth, game enjoying cheetah.
Regards,
A Fan
Cheetah Cheetah pumpkin eatah
man im so hooked, but can you say what is better? more items in the inventory and stash or less? im the horder/keeping everything organised guy and would like to know if i should essentially swap all my items to mules to get better drops? what ur doing is great work love the videos!
There is no better or worse. All of those variables are combined into a number, and that number is the item from the loot table. There is no good or better trend, there is a PERFECT set of variables for your ber or for the item that you want
Looking forward to a part 3!!
There are several live streams you should check out on these topics
So I got to testing and...
I'm running a 55frw 237 mf barb.
I go to spider forest and pop all cocoons around wp then go to trav, run to the chest outside and it will drop a unique long battle bow and unique amulet, I got all unique amulets in about 60 runs. Potions in slot seem to effect monsters around spider forest wp . It's set on players 3.
I'm interesting I will have to check this out.
Im not so sure about what you said about console versions. As you cant set a seed, there are slight variations, with chest spawns and monster spawns. Which means different stuff spawns everytime so the RNG has a different sequence each time. Im currently testing on PC sp as im at work but I have yet to replicate anything. Ill try and do so on Console when I get home but what I'v done so far on console has never replicated the drops.
I think console rolls things different I cant get any items to be consistent little things change everytime even tho the map seed is supposed to be the same. I have a map layout just like his, one tp and I'm at chest but the items are always random even tho I'm doing the exact same thing everytime
Chests should be pretty random (around 65k possible drops per two players settings) but weapon/armor racks should be a bit more stable, that is if it is coded the same way.
good chances systems are the same for online. my guess is time is the determining factor there. it’s either the local time, or time spend in the game. so exciting cool stuff you are doing here! pitty it does do nothing for online (yet). :) cheers
im pretty sure it are the sames, the only difference is you don't know which seed are you at hahah so id say the goal on online is first being able to know on what seed are you playing
@@Diegoreturns i don't know about seeds solely. ok it's the remaster... but the original code goes back into the late 90s, maybe 2000. i think coding-wise seeding was not a thing back than. they rather generated "seeds" based on time measures, stamps and codes. yeah... that doesn't help a ton :D haha... but still...
Seed is influenced by time. Since he's using the -seed command it ignores the time variable in the RNG and will always have the same time variable of when the original seed was created. This is why it doesn't work in single player either unless you're using the -seed command.
@@lildavo87 I guess it won't work in console then
@@lildavo87 anyway ive been playing d2 for many years and Im not proud (i play now in single player) but I used to bot back in the days
Developers could (maybe) develope addons that would recognize wich seed you're playing at and literally display what items are you going to loot/obtain
I was unable to find that sweet lighting + magic find charm. Tried copying your inventory exactly but it never came. I did find a few other interesting charms but maybe I have to copy you shared stashes exactly as well? That would be tough.
Just the total number of items, I don't know the exact number of hand sorry.
You can try to keep adding until you find it.
Please keep going. Is this a possible explanation of why dupes exist and/or won't ever go away?
so what I am doing isn't technically duping, I just used that for a buzzword to attract attention. True duping is a method by which you duplicate an item directly.
This is controlling variables so the same item drops twice.
@@GGMentor Sorry didn't mean to imply you were duping. We know "duping" (even online) still exists however. My theory being that maybe we are misinterpreting "duping" or the method of producing multiple identical items.
I wonder if any or some variables change where the summoner spawns in arcane sanctuary. (I know a bit different than what you’re doing though)
Amazing work
You broke the game … GG man this is indeed fascinating. Are there any general advices on how to farm from now on ? Should i start interacting with all chests armour racks etc. what should i keep in my stash tabs. How to maximise my loot drop ?
So on pc if you do not set a seed code I think the seed gets reset when you save/exit. You can't get the same item over and over the same way as setting a seed.
Yes and no.
I've also gotten different loot when farming for items and it changed often when no seed was set.
*But* i also often get the same item from armor racks and once 3 games in a row i got a set crown from a skeleton.
Please test if the "gem" button in lobby does anything !!!
I've been able to find the path to traverse on this seed to get a shako to drop from that western armor rack, I put a short video up showing the path on a couple of runs through the path if anyone wants to play around with it too. I've not gotten the Harlequin Crest to drop from it yet, but have gotten the grey, white and superior base shakos to drop from it so far.
awesome video and information
This only works with the -seed option. Remove it and every game creation on single player will change your seed code. Using the -seed option is for debugging and can create weird behaviors.