He made a couple good points. what do you think? if twitch didnt exist, would all arpgs be better? BACK FROM TESTING SPIRITBORN NEW D4 CLASS ON SUNDAY! will be live then link below live here: www.twitch.tv/darthmicrotransaction
No, because Twitch isn't the only site that streamers/content creators use. Not only that, diablo 4 has a skill stick instead of a skill tree. That would be the top problem for me. But we all know it isn't the only one.
My experience with playing the game would probably be better, because I get burned out on the game without even playing it by watching people play the game. That's just a me problem though.
I agree with your points, but also think that streamers are more vocal and push boundaries of something that “casual” players might never experience. It is like swimming next to olympians 😂 i just want to enjoy the swimming pool and dont want to commit to play video games for hundreds of hours. Asking for more than 20 hours of game time every three months it is hard. and harder when there are other games releasing or other games doing seasonal content as well. Btw, Love your content and keep growing! It was cool to see your growth in these past months
Honestly, I think LIFE would be better if social media didn't exist! It gives too many haters a platform for their voice. I miss the days when I didn't have to hear how I'm going to HELL from some inbred southern religious freak. When it comes to entertainment like games and films, I make up my own mind and find streamers like you to be very helpful if I'm having trouble getting through something or understanding how to play.
@michaelwilkerson500 so? Why do gamers feel entitled for making a bad deal. They advertised what you get for buying things in game. NONE of those items said they give you input on the game. What i see when people play Diablo 4 is, video poker players. You're no different to me. You're addicted to the rush and the money spending. If a video poker player started complaining that they need to change the game so they can win more because they've spent xxx amount of dollars on that machine in the past.... I'd laugh. So, hahaha. Nobody cares that you're bad with money.
Yeah super stupid video. The dad players don't have time to play but time to watch streamers for some reason? I don't know what he was on about anyway... he just said a whole bunch of things.
@@WayStedYou It does seem like he is desperately trying to use his most likely purposeful misunderstanding of stats to attempt to hold up his other points that kind of suck and only make sense if you are genuinely clueless. The bait is saying everything is because of streamers. Since it's a popular talking point and will bring out the crazies. Easy way to get eyeballs on a bad video.
@@brave1988brave this is how tons of people making videos talk these days. You'll notice it more if you start thinking and investigating the things they actually talk about. Especially political or political-adjacent video essayists or streamers. They'll just say things and draw conclusions from thin air and say they are connected...somehow.
Listen, I'm 57 yrs old. I raised 2 kids and I still play games today. There was a time i simply slowed or stopped playing outright while I coached football, baseball etc. to spend time with my kids. At no time did I blame devs or streamers, I simply chose to spend time with my kids. At one point I think age 6 I started playing COD with my son. It's more about life choices, it's not about other people.
A very small percentage of the population will ever be a professional athlete BUT we still watch the NBA, NFL, Olympics etc because its fun to see the best in the world compete....I'd imagine video games will have a similar outcome ever since the creation of streaming and professional gaming.
I agree with this sentiment; it's not much of a risk of people having endgame spoiled for them if they're not getting there anyway, but it benefits them to have "all stars" playing endgame because they can be fun to watch and root for -- video gaming has room for spectator sports.
That is a terrible analogy, video games are specifically designed to be beaten by a large audience. When comparing it to sports, fewer than 2% of NCAA student-athletes go on to be professional athletes. Designing a game because "OH don't worry if it's grindy as fuck, because they can watch another person play it" is the worse train of thought.
Most people watching professional games or games in general are invested because they play those games. That’s not the truth for most people watching pro sports.
Meh, that guy is just trying to kickstart his UA-cam career by trying to create a controversy, specifically targeting a group of people who might bring attention to his channel and namedropping some well known people in the space. Instead of creating some creative and original content he delivers just a bunch of L takes.
@@Tombitp Both Darth and Asmongold stream basically daily, that's the content they make. Sure, they also do react videos, but you're acting like streaming 4-8 hours almost daily is not making content.
Reason why the level 50 achievement is screwed is because steam had a free to play week for Diablo 4 last year. Meaning there is a millions players who probably played few hours and uninstalled because they did not pay to play, just try out. It was marketed in the front page of steam so most likely there are some clickers who had NO IDEA what the game even was about.
not to mention that steam charts aren't going to be very accurate for overall numbers on things players did for this game because it launched on the blizzard platform first.
To add, a lot of people play the diablo story and than quit. While playing the story, it is not necessary to hit lvl 50. So people play the story and stop before reaching 50.
Oh its worse than that. 48.9% do not have the achievement for getting to level 5!!!! (on the steam special edition version - keep in mind that playing with mods turns off achievements)
TBF the reason for that though is because of mods, alot of people on pc dont know they can reenable them and they are turned off by default with any mods loaded, since the games been out forever thats really the reason as most people are replaying it and installing before even booting the game. Not to defend this guy mind you but its not exactly compareable.
I got Skyrim on deep discount on some Morrowind/oblivion nostalgia. After the absurdly long start I had to watch and look around that I had no interest in, the first thing I do is start wandering then get punted into space by a giant. Shut it off and uninstalled.
I consider myself a casual gamer and I had 3 lvl 100s in about 4 days maybe a week and thats playing very casually. I love how easy it is to lvl characters cause my fav part of a game anyways is farming for my end game build.
@@subzero308You are exactly what's wrong with Blizz games, the idiots who give the loudest feedback are NEVER "hardcore" players. "Guys, I'm not a hardcore WoW player, I only run +22 Mythic+ keys and raid 4 nights a week on 3 alts to gear up our guilds main raid group to clear Mythic difficulty on week 2." "I'm practically having a new player experience!"
@@subzero308 Why lie? Power leveling to 100 is taking 8-10 hours and 3/4 more for leveling glyphs. You had ~36 hours in the first week to game? Youre fulltime, not casual
This guys logic is the dumbest ever... "most people only got 5 hours a week and never make it to or past level 50" His answer "make more classes that these people won't play and raise skill point level cap from 50 to 70" He literally is saying we need to make the game more casual while arguing points that only hard-core players will like lol.
@@Michael-Phantom true, and even with 5 hours you should be there at most in like 2-4 weeks of play. My friends.and I got there in the first night of play this season farming hell tides and a few dungeons. We do play a lot and have a lot of ARPG knowledge, but we weren't "sweaty" about it. None of us are using build guides or looking up leveling strategies. We are just farming the game. I have no idea why so many people are trying to act like it takes a 100 hours to get to 50.
@@starfreek101 Guarantee most people quit and never looked back after season 0, when it DID take an absolute eternity to hit 50 (let alone 100). I never even managed 100 in season 1 either and I was playing quite a bit then, too (hit 74ish) - it wasn't until S2 that levelling became way faster, and by then people that hated Season 0 were never coming back. I haven't had any issues hitting 50 (and 100) post S2, but it did actually take significantly longer before S2.
@@Shmandalf I almost made it to 80 in the preseason before I quit out of boredom. I played briefly in the next 2 to see if I would like them(I didn't). And I have played a little this season as a friend was trying the game for the first time. It was far faster as you say.
Just bc us 30 y/os with 7 wives and 30 children dont make it to pinnacle doesnt mean we dont TELL OURSELVES we can. We dont want less interesting things to chase just bc we dont always reach them...
He's pretty condescending to "gamer dads" with his points, like we somehow don't know how to play a game. Any point after that was lost to my apparent dad "stupidity".
I guess I should just load up my level 100 character and play that nonexistent end game content he says I'll never see... which is true, but not for his reasons.
Also what content is he thinking of adding for these people that don't have time to play the original content in the first place? Is blizzard going to sell them more time in their day???
@@nickh4354 Exactly this. If people can't find the time or the " skill " to run Helltides until over level 50 then adding in 100 classes or 100 bosses to kill sub level 50 won't matter because they clearly don't have time or skill to kill them anyways. It sounds like this guy wants Blizzard to add in a shit load of cosmetic only content that is going to be easy enough for his casual ass to farm for instead of making loot based reward systems. Which would be fine if he just said that, but he is trying to do some bullshit round about argument to seem 5head by blaming uber sweaty players instead of just admitting he is a casual that can't kill harder content.
Im a dad gamer, in a clan of dad gamers and we all hit 100 every season and usually end up with top tier gear and fully fleshed out builds on multiple characters...
that's more of a your dopamine addiction problem, play for fun and do challenge related content for the accomplishment. beating uber lilith in pre season on druid with 14 damage post armor nerf and pre resistances doing literally anything is a boss fight i will never forget. even after quitting diablo 4 after season 1.
How the fuck would streamers affect people not hitting lv 50? 50 wasn't hard when the game launched and I would argue was the best part of the game early on. So yes the fact that he's using steam as his metric is fucking ridiculous to begin with.
This is one of those situations where the reply completely covers and dismantles the original argument. I'd have a ton of respect for this creator if he posted a follow up after watching this video, admitting the mistakes in his take.
The player base is not "everyone who owns the game" the actual player base is the people who have that "reach level 50" achievement. The idea of a player who is so unfathomably bad at the video game that they can't reach level 50 in hundreds of hours of gameplay is... absolutely a myth. And designing the game around people who don't exist is a bad idea.
It is worth noting that it is pretty easy to finish the story well under lvl 50 in D4. There may be players who prefer the story part of ARPGs. Nothing tabled here gives any evidence on what percentage of gamers this may be, nor how much they may spend on extras. I was shocked at completing the story at lvl 42, and how dull it felt trying to get to 50 to unlock paragon. The video was not a well articulated argument, but I would argue that streaming in general does throw up challenges for developers that weren't there 15 years ago, and finding the right balance across their players is one of those. I quit at 50 and went back to PoE though 😂
@@ScottNicholson86 I will say the most recent Diablo 4 season has many of the QOL features that should have been there a launch that completely turned off to the game. I am only playing with a friend of mine that just started and she only plays this one at most 1 nights a week so I haven't seen the new end game stuff yet, but it sounds like they have taken some steps in the right direction if that is taken into consideration in addition to the changes I have already experienced. It still isn't going to replace POE or LE for me, but it at least is less frustrating than before.
People who don't hit level 50 aren't watching youtube videos. You're asking content creators to make content for people who will never watch it. Also, why no link to this creator?
Right off the bat, the first argument of only 35% achieving end game. This isn't isolated with just video games. Comic books are a prime example, the volume sales from top to bottom are, 1, 2, 3 and by the end there is less than 30% of the original buyers actually finish the series. TV shows have the same issue with viewers. UA-cam Channels have the same issue with subscribers. This isn't a video game/streamer issue. People often try it, don't care for it or find something that entertains them more. To blame this on streamers is simply unjustified. I assume this topic was done less about talking about a problem and just doing it for clout. All other arguments after that mean nothing.
The vast majority just play the game and move on. They quit after the campaign or even earlier because it didn’t speak to them. I’ve seen some Hollow play throughs where he 100% some games. He also tried D4 and never played any top down rpg. He played one session. The start till he got to kiovachad. And never continued
Only 51% of Path of Exile players have the achievement for beating Brutus, the Prison Warden; a boss half-way through Act 1. Free the Scion achievement happens pretty near the end of Part 1, and less than 30% of players have that. About 15% have the one for completing an endgame map. I think it was one of their devs who said an astonishing percentage don't beat the first area, never-mind reaching endgame. But that 15% that get to maps, have a LOT of achievements. That 15% is 'the PoE playerbase' not the 49% who can't manage to get halfway through Act 1.
That's not really a fair comparison, though. PoE is FREE to try and Diablo costs $50 just to get in the door. PoE is also incredibly and unashamedly casual-unfriendly. It's not surprising their achievement metrics are abysmal. BUYING a game for $50 and then choosing to not play it is a very different metric.
Chris Wilson talked about it again a couple of years ago. It was less than 10% of players who left act 1, who completed the campaign. However, of those who completed the campaign and entered endgame, be described it as "then we got them hocked in". As of those who entered endgame content, saw a 90 ish % retention rate, which also are the ones who becomes paying players, via the MTX and cosmetic shop.
That's the problem with POE...It's like .01% of Diablo Players will play POE endgame, and that will never compare to 8 million players or the money blizzard is making...POE is not even a treat to diablo cause it is basically played by the 1% hardcore arpg community and that is very little money...
@@Otisdic I don't know where you got your numbers but seeing how well things are going for GGG, I wouldn't say it's "very little money". Not only that, they also have full player faith and support behind them, which is not something Blizzard can claim to have, except for bootlickers and weird masochists that like to be abused.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think if you have a lvl 100 char on console and you buy d4 on steam and you play that char, you wont get the achievement of leveling to lvl 50..? I had it the other way around on my xbox
I'm one of the "gamer dads" and even with a few hours a week I was 100 in less than 10 days, 100 Nightmare Dungeons, up to 60 in the Pit, built out my build, tempered and masterworked my gear pretty adequately. To its credit, Diablo 4 is one of the most respectful ARPG of a player's time around. Even with limited time you can experience most of the content in the game.
Not through the whole thing but this bugged me: If they only have 5 hours to game, how are they finding time to watch their favorite streamer play instead?
Pre-S1, the game had an abundance of issues, and a non-existent end game. Blizzard then nuked their own game twice by: 1) nerfing all high density mob areas people used to farm and level, and 2) the legendary pre-season 1 patch that drastically nerfed players, while simultaneously buffing monsters. Blizzard ruined their game; not streamers.
@@themissingpeace7956 same; that patch killed the last shred of hype and hope I had for future Diablo games, since D3 was also a massive L until reaper of souls.
The average gamer dad out there with 14 kids, 6 jobs, sleeps 3 seconds a night and have 7 minutes to play a season/league/cycle per month doesn't need more content, ever.
I was in wt3 in 45 minutes, and wt4 in 2 hours on my character that I specifically speedran those achievements for. I did the first capstone dungeon at level 18, and the 2 capstone dungeon at level 40. After that, I was level 80 at about 6 hours in. I'm not a speedrunner in any regard, I just took advantage of the xp buff mid season, with elixir and incense off cooldown. It was my 3rd character though. So I used legendary tempers to hyper boost some level 1 legendary gear and just went for it.
@@Steph1but the vast majority of first time players don't play the game like that. The only ones who would even know how to "power level" themselves that early in D4 are ones who watch UA-cam channels on the game. No one who buys the game and creates their first character just runs out and does helltides first thing.
But to keep the streamers playing for so long, they often artificially stretch out the leveling process so much, it turns off many "regular" gamers. I know lots of gamers who play a lot. None of them want a game that takes over z hundred hours (without power leveling or cheesing the game in some way) to get a max level character. Especially if the leaving process is boring and/or repetitive. I finished the D4 campaign at around level 43. Then I'm supposed to look forward to 57 more artificially drawn out levels to reach end game made so specifically to keep streamers rolling on for weeks on end?
@@NotSoFast71 what you are describing is an ARPG. That is just the genre of game and it isn't for everyone. You spend hours and hours farming to make your character stronger so you can take on stronger content until you clear everything or decide you are done or start a new character. Diablo 4 isn't as good at doing this as others, but most arpgs also drop items that can be used for other classes and builds to give you new ideas to create new characters. For instance arpg seasons/leagues I play I end up making 2-4 characters and getting them to end game. The characters after the first one usually have at least some gear and a plan from the character before it. Every ARPG I have played is like that to one degree or another. Diablo 3 and 4 actually have the fastest leveling in any arpg I have played if you don't count rushes in d2 which you can't do solo and isn't really "playing" the game so much as sitting there while someone else does.
I am the cliche Dad gamer kids, job, yada, yada. I played Diablo IV a couple hours a night for a couple weeks (pretty sure I never made level 50) and asked myself: what the hell am I doing? Blew 80 bucks for about 16 hours of...confusion? I don't even know how to describe my experience. It made no sense, I had all this shit in my bag and didn't know what to do with it....a skill tree that was outright confounding and the whole season/difficulty level/etc made it even more confusing.
The worse part is that the D4 skill tree _could_ *fit on a single page* but the dumb UI designers forced players to scroll because they wanted to manipulate people into thinking it was bigger then it really was.
I know people with 1000+ games on Steam and 99% of those games were quit the first 5 minutes of playing, so they are just stuck there forever not touched. So seeing 30% of player base get to over level 50 is a very high number.
30% of the player have the achievement for ranni ending in elden ring, which doesn't include people who only did the regulars endings or the frenzy ending. So no, something as easy as reaching lvl50 in diablo should be way above 30%, only issue is the game is so bad people are stopping before doing that
@@Uryendel you don't know the scale of games if you think 30% is low. You also comparing live-service game with single player that don't need online mode to work
@@XENON3120 I'm comparing a challenging game that require 80+h to finish with a game made for toddler where you can reach 50 in 30h. And being live service has nothing to do with it.
Hes basing this all off of Steam achievements too, forgetting there was an almost 4 month period where the game wasn't even available on Steam. I'd wager its closer to 45-50% which is a pretty good number.
the ony boss in d4 that gives you problems that normal every day "gamer dads"will struggle with due to the one shot mechanics is lillith cuz you cant really out gear her, now that blizzard have stopped the cheeseball builds that used to skip all her mechanics ,
@@mistermofo28I mean true but not at same time I have thorns barb and it’s pretty easy. I feel having my 110k health way out gears her. And my rouge which I hate I was able to beat cause of the easy stagger and high damage from barrage. I’m A dad gamer. But you are right for the most part but I also see that people don’t even try cause why try when tormented bosses drop all the good gear ppl forget that. No point in wasting time with one shot mechanics when you can get best gear else were.
@@steelewearinc6140 100k hp with a bash barb will still get you one shot still had to dodge mechanics. Think by the 4th hit I was getting one shot. Found it more fun previous season where we could just simply skip the mechanics by tweaking a build . Ie HOTA, twisting poison blade . And the Wiz with rotating a balls . But yeah kiling Lilith is kinda pointless it just a tick in a box . For 2 legendary throwaways . Get more reward sitting in hellltide for 5 minutes. Or one shotting duriel Or in tormented duriel 5 or 6 hits. I have one thorns roll on my bash gear and use the thorns bleed skill. And I can just stand there with Ubers and they die. So god knows what a thorns barb can do
Guy is a baiting jerk for sure however there is some truth in that point just not for the reasons he implies. Look at steam, check achievements and you will see percentages of people who got achievements in games across the platform. Even stupid achievements in games like "Make your first character" or something are never 100%, why? Because sometimes people buy games pre-order and then FORGET they have done that, the pattern is there but it isn't because it is impossible. A lot of gamers buy games and never touch them.
Agreed. They aren’t players. They are people that tried the game and quit. If you haven’t given the game 4 hrs of gameplay then you don’t get to alter the game based off your opinions.
A couple things. D4 is designed to waste time, initially it was designed for more casual players, but every decision they make is llooking through the lens of player engagement. Not player fun, not player fulfillment, not retention, engagement. They designed all the inventory to be as cluttered as possible, they give us no stash space, put all the vendors as far away as possible. We had to force them to change the way renown works. My point in all this, streamers aren’t ruining Diablo, D4 devs are ruining Diablo. Micro transactions are ruining Diablo, engagement metrics are ruining Diablo, live service is ruining Diablo. Make Arpg’s fun again.
When did we stop saying "get good?“ I'm a 44 year old gamer papa (3 kids with their own xboxes) that has a full time job and has 3 characters over 100, 2 barbs 1 sorc, 99 rougue, the other 8 are either over 80 or close (rep stone farms) all since season 4... This season is so easy that the only way you aren't enjoying the game is IF YOU AREN'T LISTENING TO THESE GUYS WHO ARE STREAMING RESEARCH SO YOU DON'T HAVE TOOO. It's all about how much you like it and the ability to learn what works, period. You are never going to get those numbers back because they didn't like the game enough to get good or find someone who can tell them how. Now some may comeback to see new buzz but they aren't the target audience because they are just following trends.
People seem to be unable to separate developers from the company. The devs can want to do all sorts of things but if the suit overlords have other plans then oh well. I think its better to blame the suits in general, not devs.
Streamers are not ruining games. It’s those butthurt cry babies ruining their own experience by not using their brain to form their own opinions. DM, you’re one of the best content creators I know of these days. Informative, straight to the point, great insights, and perfect humor. Keep up the great work buddy.
After taking a quick look at Steam, more people are level 50 than have completed the campaign. A better basis of comparison would be those who have finished the campaign. For example, only 7.7% have defeated the Echo of Lilith, but that's actually almost exactly a quarter of people who completed the campaign (pretty good, imo).
Maybe they should “Normal, Nightmare & Hell” difficulty when logging in with your character, like Diablo 2. Each where you have to complete the campaign.
One major detail this guy either doesn't realize o is ignoring is that when he talked about 65% of those players stopped at level 50, like Darth mentioned, is because they stopped playing. He was talking as if these players that barely get to level 50 are still somehow playing but never play the end game content. Like, either those players literally are playing like 1-2 hours a week or they simply stop content gets too hard or too boring for them to continue. The only reason these games survive and keep getting updates is because of the 30% of players that play consistently into the end game content. Why would any developer ignore those players and just let these other players meander around hardly playing their game?
you think players stopping to play the game doesn't correlate to the quality of the game? 30% will always be the margin of long time players but Blizzard can decide how many millions fit into those 30%.
1:15 btw this is just based on Steam player numbers, I'm pretty sure Blizzard doesn't disclose player numbers on their og launcher sadly, unsure why they're afraid to do so. Steam achievements are also known to be buggy at times
They used to do it all the time before WoW started declining and then they stop reporting active users. I bet there was a policy put in place to stop the numbers as a bad public perception from data like that could affect the stock price.
The first flaw I saw in his argument is that games, and especially ARPGs, have been loaded down with endgame content since long before streamers were a thing. ARPGs usually have a leveling experience that's more or less an extended tutorial, followed by a bulk of content at endgame that's there for the players who want to spend the time with it. And it's been that way for decades.
Exactly this. It sounds like this guy is one of those casuals that is either can't do content or gets bored easily grinding for power creep loot. He probably wants Blizzard to make leveling super slow and fill the open world with hidden treasure boxes for people to " explore " for those " collection " driven players to have 100 hours of content that doesn't revolve around playing the actual game. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind players having access to cosmetics to collect and whatnot, but this guy wants Blizzard to force people into a Vanilla WoW style pace so he has excuses to meander around and not feel like a bad player.
I’m a dad who just opened my first restaurant 4 months ago and I have had to take my time getting to 100 but I don’t mind. I’m not gonna blame the game or devs or expect that any game ever is being made for me. I am not who they create games for. I am a casual with not enough time and I’m enjoying myself. I also live vicariously through DM and I appreciate watching his content and seeing him do what I can’t. Much love amigo.
Was curious about this so checked on xbox. Doesnt show the numbers for amount of people but "only" 25.54% of people whove played on xbox have reached a lvl 50 character as well.
I just want to point out that Baldur's Gate 3's lead dev, Sven Vinke, specifically said in an interview that the team at Larian does not make game elements that will be seen by 80% of the players. They look at what the 20% are doing and cater to them. The point being that the 20% will be so excited about what they've found, that they will tell the 80%. In short, putting things in that most won't get to increases the depth of the game and the sense of discovery. For an ARPG like D4, putting in mechanical systems that provided additional depth and customization is not something that most will get to, but does enrich the game in the same way.
On a more serious note, I think the point isn’t really to add more content for the first hour, but to improve systems that make the entire game (including first hour) more fun. But he doesn’t make that point properly
Leaving completely aside what makes the company money or not... Creating more content (be it early content like more classes to choose from, or endgame content for those that play nonstop) won't have any effect whatsoever on those people that already don't play the current early content. He pointed out that most people don't even reach Lv50... they don't finish the early content... so let's give them even more early content that they don't finish? What? That being said... Everyone wants more classes. I wouldn't necessarily tie that to "early content" or "casual players".
A game developer I watched in an interview made a great point. They said that there is very little return on investment in making a released game more inviting for new players. He explained it this way. People who play games are smart enough to realize pretty quickly whether a game is one they will enjoy playing or not. Pretty quickly they will realize how the game plays, what the goals are, what kind of time investment is required, etc. If a player realizes this game isn't for them, it doesn't matter how simple or rewarding you make the early game, how well you explain things, how much you hold their hand. This is why most games see a huge drop-off in players within the first few hours of a game. The only way you will retain many of the new players is to make a entirely different game, which isn't economically feasible. He saw this in his game and confirmed it with the experience of other developers. The best, and perhaps only, return on investment is to keep creating the kind of content that will keep people (who already play the game a bunch) playing the game; investing their time and money into it.
Where his argument falls flat is most people who play D4 are in the blizzard ecosystem and did not buy it on Steam. I know I bought it directly from blizzard as I had wow accounts and d2 reworked game too etc.
That is the only thing that made any sense in his argument, he is using steam achievements so it draws from steam users only everything else he said is wrong a gamer dad as he put it who plays casually isnt going to spend time watching end game content if they have never reached level 50 themselves and only have an hour to play
I'm a senior producer in games so I'm exposed to KPIs on a daily basis and this guy's comment about the % of players achieving something is very ignorant of facts. Some of the most important KPIs for games are day 1, 7 and 30 retention. Meaning, are people logging back in after trying out the game. For browser games (no downloads, direct play on browser), D1 retention on average will be 20%. For mobile games (downloaded game, but typically casual), you're looking at 30-40% D1 retention to be healthy. For PC games, about 35-40%. But then if you get into genre specific, it gets very tricky! ARPGs in particular have one large crowd that bounces back and forth between many big ARPG titles and with those players, even the casuals, you'll see big numbers like 50-55% retention for D1. It's HUGE, but those guys are not the majority of players. The bigger the studio, the bigger the marketing, the bigger the reach, the more players NOT part of the ARPG crowd will join your game and then you're looking at ABYSMAL D1 retention. We're talking 10% or less. So if the guy in the video went and looked at super easy achievements that you'd normally get within 10-16 hours of gameplay, you'd see the % is also quite a bit less than 100%. People not from the ARPG crowd who are exposed to the genre are frequently overwhelmed. That's why D4 is designed the way it is. They're trying to reach a bigger audience and convert people, but they'll run into some really bad numbers along the way. It's absolutely expected.
I also want to add that he's commenting "why are people so hellbent on end game?" and the answer is simple. The people you weed out by the nature of your genre were never your target audience to begin with. That's ok. PoE said it best: once you get to maps, GGG owns your soul. When you provide the crack-like fix of end game to ARPG enjoyers, you've got them forever. Those are the people generating your revenue. Supporter packs, stash tabs, etc. D4 could have been free on launch with a proper shop (not their current actual garbage) and they'd still make solid revenue.
İn every game there are like %4-5 of hardcore players that are gonna play the game whether or not game is good regardless of player count.Theyll be playing that specific game no matter what happens.%50 of player base are just casuals who gonna play a few hours to see if the game is good and move on but left %25-30 ish ppl are gonna show up in every update day,gonna play it for a few weeks on a daily basis and look for another update and so on.These guys are why the games like Warframe Poe Destiny live years and for Diablo s case when I reach endgame,I cant even stand to 2 hour of gameplay let alone a week because all you do is doing helltides for the rest of the gameplay.
Also... maybe the point is a criticism on the approach of game design and how it seems to focus on endgame for a minority of the player base instead of focusing both: full length of the game as much as end-game
Always admired your level-headed responses DM. Your impartial views are what make your videos great. In my opinion, it's still a good thing that there is endgame stuff added that a casual player like myself will never reach. I don't want to commit time to a game if I know there's nothing to do once I get there. As long as they don't ignore the mid game (season 4 has shown they aren't), then I have no problem with them building out the lackluster endgame stuff. One bit I thought deserved mentioning more is basing the assumption about retention purely off steam achievements is skewed, as a large majority of Diablo fans would have picked it up on Battlenet well before it was even announced that there would be a Steam release
If only 35% of people cant reach level 50, they havent beat the campaign. Why is Blizzard created an expansion at all if no one is finishing the base game? Feels like a large misunderstanding of how to actually view player counts and use that data. edit: should have listened longer. None of these points actually make any sense in the reality of game development.
Where were you going with your point anyway. If people havent reached max level yet then its blizzards fault or something? Im asking because I hear that opinion so much and not just for d4
@@WayStedYou finish campaign is also an achievement and stands at 30%, so almost exactly the same, but also kinda a more sensible point. Either way, that clown should really not make videos. its embarrassing.
@@eric7069 Well not max level, just beating the campaign, which doesn't take a long time(relatively speaking about ARPGs) and was fairly easy to do. People are "done" with their characters at various points in characters progression depending on the person, so I wouldn't ever take making it to max level or attaining a certain level of character power as a metric, but but not being able to finish the base story on a game you paid for is something many people evaluate when looking at a game's success. Now there was a free weekend for the game, so I think those numbers are useless anyway as that would allow lots of people to try it without buying and then put it down when they realize they don't like it, or never had an intention of buying it in the first place. That said the people that do finish are the "playerbase" that they need to design around as they are the ones that didn't quit just a couple hours in and will probably be the ones coming back over and over for new seasons and buying the expansions.
There was many reasons i couldn't get into d4 despite trying. A big one for me is the monetization, Hate seeing all the best looking stuff in the shop for 20-35$ per item bundle or Mount. I've honestly been back on D2 res and Last epoch. Waiting for the Grimdawn expansion plus Titan Quest 2 is coming at some point!
wile i agree that its kinda shity to have so many consmetics in a fuking 70$ game,if that somehow makes you not enjoy the gameplay...something may be wrong with you mentaly
I finally got past lvl 50 with season 4. My problem is I’m not a fan of just grinding. I like questing so if there was a continuous quest chain all the way through end game I’d enjoy it more. Just doing helltides or whatever gets boring quick. I haven’t played in a few weeks but I think I’m almost 60…not sure if I’ll continue or not as I play FFXIV and a ton of single player rpgs in my backlog lol.
"Why make more content if most people don't ever get to it?" "Gimme 10 total classes, G" Brother, you just said most people don't get to certain content for endgame. Why add in more classes if most people aren't going to get to them? I don't know if this guy really thought his points through
@@velorama-tkkn Endgame simply means "gameplay after campaign/main story". Though you may be right, you don't technically need to finish the campaign to start a new character. But then I ask you; why would a casual player actually do so if they haven't even seen the full story? I highly doubt that the amount of people that get stuck and start a new character overtake the amount that get stuck and outright quit
Using steam stats for Diablo 4, is using the smallest possible selection of Diablo 4 players with very skewed stats. D4 wasn't even available on steam at release. Using the casual "dad" to excuse lack of complexity in a game or difficulty is an trop that is getting old. Dad's that want to game will game Dad's that don't won't. Season 4 reduced leveling time, increased end game activity, and is D4's most successful season so far, that in its self countermands this guys stance at a base. Of course we want more classes, who doesn't, it doesn't take a genius to make this observation.
It is funny that I see all this "gamer dad" stuff when I've been a gamer dad for 16 years and played tons of games, including POE and WOW fairly constantly. I'm not even convinced all the people complaining actually play. I saw people in the comment section saying it takes to long to get to end game when I got to Wt3 this season with a few hours of grinding dungeons/helltides/strong holds, I'll probably be in Wt4 next time I log in with friends(I'm only playing this season because I have a couple RL friends that wanted to, well that and I was curious to check out the reworks which seem to be quite good so far). If they can't even put that little amount of effort in...are they even gamers? Edit:I forgot to mention that there was a free weekend done for D4 on steam so that number is useless at this point anyway.
Being a dad doesn't mean you're limited to an hour a day of gaming. People quit D4 because it's shallow not because of lack of time. I'm a dad with 2 kids and a job, I play from 8.30pm to 12 am every night (primarily WoW).
Listening to D4 videos while working makes me want to play the game at night, at this point I'm watching crossout and palworld vids cause I've already got two 100 level charectors this season alone and got my prepaid expansion but I won't play again until my season 5 Barb
I do think it would be nice if there was some more mid to late game content added that made getting to the full endgame content a bit more streamlined. It would be nice to have a path to getting to the full endgame have a bit more variance so it does not bore people out of playing the game before "completing" it.
I got to 78 in my D4 playthrough before I quit. That was when it dropped. After the campaign I wasn't enjoying the dungeons or anything at all, and at that time the guys I play with had already moved on. Story pulled me through D4 but once I finished that, end game was ass. Not to mention I only found one class interesting to play, and fun to boot. Last Epoch, I've go 4 level 100 characters of different builds, and have enjoyed the monoliths. Even without playing with my friends, I found Epoch 100 times more enjoyable than D4. UA-camr's didn't ruin D4 for me. They opened my eyes and showed me what awaited...
Last epoch is just a much better designed game. It was better than D4 at launch a year or two before it officially released, though I guess multiplayer wasn't implemented until the year D4 launched and that was rough for a while, though a beta so I had no anger about it at all.
Why TF is this guy using Steam cheevos as a benchmark? Most people don't play on Steam since it released first on Battlenet and it's not worth re-buying.
@@InsomniaticVampire Just because it's easy doesn't mean it's accurate. You can't just use a small subset of the data and make arguments as if it's representative of the whole situation
Chris Wilson from GGG (Path of Exile) has several times talked about player retention. The last one I can remember, a couple of years back, it was sub 10% of players who ever finished the main campaign. And from those reaching the endgame (completing the campaign) they sees a player retention of the high 90%. So his basic analysis was, that if they can get them to endgame, then they are hocked in. However, their design philosophy are also a bit different from many other games. Chris has stated that they are fine people stop playing, and coming back again at a later date. So it aren't the same rush to be this "one-game-forever" mentality, where they are deadly afraid of people stop playing. they know that the vast majority of their players, who reach that part of the game, will come back and invest loads of time, and buy many cosmetics. This has given them a design incentive to make the campaign and leveling experience as good as possible. Because if they can make more play though it, it will result in more players entering the endgame, and becoming paying players.
I would agree with what he said if getting to the end game was still hard, but since it is completely accessible even to people with limited time then adding to the end game is only logical now. Although more classes would be great too.
Im not going to waste my time, this is my own opinion being a long time gamer. Streamers are ruining gaming. Go and watch any sports game pushers on Streams. Then realize innovation was left behind for greed. They have ruined sports game, cause all sports games think people are like streamers. Streamers are like parasites. COD, do not get me started.. I do not know if you yourself did. But in fact, streamers are ruining games.
I'm pretty sure if we go back to NES games, most people never finished most games then also. (outside of Super Mario Bros, think Legend of Zelda, etc.) That was the time before streamers. What ruined those games, the instruction manual? 💀
12:25 this is something i actually agree with and have been thinking about for a while. I think there should be stepping stone sets of armor early game that you replace later on since no one uses uniques anymore. My point being if they want the best of the best gear than they have to create it themselves (since thats the direction we are going in with tempering) I dont think uniques should have random affix numbers, i think all uniques should be like Ubers and have a set amount because theyre such build specific pieces that guide you along which build direction you want to go with your character and then eventually unequip it for something better. The main point here is that unique gear is the hardest to find and the least useful which means we have to make uniques stronger (like adding tempering or making all uniques on par with ubers) or make the uniques early game stepping stone pieces we replace later on. It also solves the “casual gamer” who doesnt know how to play problem because it gives them a more focused place to start building their character instead if the games RNG loot decide FOR them. And if thats the case than i think there should be one time only target farming bosses and dungeons to have a more early game experience that feels meaningful to the player AND THEN they take their unique set to the final world tier and craft something more individualized to their play style (the repetitive grinds part of the game) Where as the unique sets can be the early game ‘meaningful’ part of the game where you adventure a mini campaign for your one and done finished sets with no mixing and matching or RNG crap (like uber gear) Some people call it “fun builds” where they create the character they want to use even though its not powerful in the current meta but behaves interesting on screen or has a style or charisma about it they find appealing ( like a chill build necromancer… crap build fun character)
Another point, let's say 100M players, only 20% will reach level 100, that's still 20M players. Majority and minority doesn't mean the same thing for 20 players or 20M players.
wow congragulations you've discovered the entire point of almost every diablo game besides the first one. Technically endgame starts at around level 50 or whenever you beat the campaign. So you played another 50 levels and then complain when there's not much left to do. Bro you beat the game move on and play something else.
@@cptmtnsinstant gratification with todays gamers. There are still ppl trying to find all the gear from d2 lol. Everyone wants the best gear given to them. There in the wrong genra of games for that. Solo games would fit them better
Probably the wrong genre for you then, as that has been the main point of ARPGs since I started playing over 20 years ago. That is perfectly fine. Every game isn't for every person. I hate both racing and sports games, but those are super popular. That said a large problem with the grind in D4 is it wasn't interesting past a certain point, there wasn't enough there. I quit around 80 because I was bored, but I will play some POE leagues for 1-2 months 1-4 hours most days. POE, and even Last epoch just have more ways to grind with different sources for items and crafting materials, more ways to build characters, not to mention they have actual crafting systems so it just doesn't get boring as fast.
As someone who has little time to actually game sometimes as you only have a very short time there is occasionally no point loading up the game as progress would be so small.... watching a streamer can help with seeing how when you do get time how to maximise your in game progress in that short time.
I agree on the more classes. Seeing as how they already have a lot of classes in the franchise, and this being the 4th in the franchise, really expected at least 10 classes to start with.
As a dad gamer and someone who falls somewhere in between the casual and the gamer that can play a lot, I believe the problem isn't the end game. The problem lies somewhere closer to the seasonal grind. The game incentivizes starting over to enjoy the seasonal content. I prefer continuing my character instead of resetting every season. I played Diablo 3 and pretty much never even knew what seasons were for the longest time and I didn't interact with them. I probably have 2500 hours in Destiny 2 and they don't make you reset you character to do the seasonal story. I think that would help with retention rates.
This whole Theorie falls apart if you have players like me that dont even play d4 over steam and have not added it to thier acc And i am sure i am not the only one who sees no reason to do so
dm you are awesome bro but in this case you are out of touch, most people don't make it to the end game because the front loaded stuff is boring and doesn't get enough attention. it's the same issue that plagues MMO's. invest 100 hours to get to the fun part, why? when I can fire up some other game and have fun right away. I have plenty of time and the end game in d4 just isn't engaging enough. focusing on time isn't the point, the point is that the focus on end-game when the initial experience sucks is a waste of time. the example about 10 classes is excellent, I've leveled a few classes in one or two seasons but once I get to the end game grind I move on, it's boring. I think that streamers that think they have a "time to play all day" market cornered are totally out of touch. Myself, and many of my friends are not streamers and we are putting in 8/9 hours of gaming a day on most days and are all 40+. The issue is the game not the time. This dad with 80 kids and 5 minutes to play is another reddit fallacy.
I think theres hope in loot reborn. I think theres a new form of grinding that can entice the new gamers attention span that devs arent exploring. People nowadays love digital collections but hate the old school grinding. People are willing to grind but theres a wide preference. I think what they can do is combine the transmog and loot system. I think the gear can be an unlockable and only needed to be looted once. You can entice casuals or semi hardcore players that just want to collect all the armors and weapons. Then to allow class builders to enjoy the grind have materials that reroll and improve gear stats rather than needing to grind for another tempest roar with 3 perfect GAs. Tempest Roar drops once but you grind for mats to reroll and improve the gear. Have build preset saving so you can switch back and forth. It makes the grind easier but it wont stop players from grinding because its too easy. Min maxxers will min max all day.
People don't make it to level 50 because the game is boring and repetitive. Make the game fun to play the whole way through, and more people will play for longer.
To be fair... the campaign was really fun and engaging. The skill tree up to level 50 was really cool... I think I beat Lillith in Tier 2 at lvl 48 Pre-Season. So saying 1-50 is boring and repetitive is false. Playing 1-50 whilst skipping the campaign? Yeah. Boring and repetitive.
I want to start a new game campaign with my max level build...like we used to be able to do, I want more permanent content, not just seasons. If they focused more on stuff that matters instead of bs seasons, Id be happy....look at immortal...they have the blood knight....what do we get on D4....some stupid spirit class........lame in my book
I don't think he understands those statistics he's using to bolster his bad arguments. Nobody needs guides on their way up to level 50. That 65% of 'casual players' are really just people that quit playing altogether.
Right so if you decide you want to get better on your own through trial and error and experimenting instead of following the step by step instructions from someone else who just so happens to have much more time available to them to do the mathematics you are a casual? Got it.
or watch streams if they have an hour to play they aren't gonna watch a man who doesn't understand retention statistics on steam he has no clue what he is talking about
I think its worse than that, because even those people can easily hit over level 50 just by doing Helltide for a few days. With how simple stats are now, if those same players simply stay the course til 100. Put on any offensive aspect that remotely sounds like it goes with a particular main damage skill, along with enchanting and masterworking a single time. Just doing that can get you strong enough to kill the normal version of the bosses that drop uniques. That's 90% of the game on its own. Anyone that can't do that much, is just someone that gets bored easily doing the same things over and over. They are the people who play a game like Classic WoW, never reach max level after months because they are just running around role playing, leveling fishing skill, exploring side quests, etc. They may eventually stumble into max level and do some basic dungeons, but that'd be the extent because they jump from new thing to new thing too often.
I'll speak for my self but I haven't made it to level 100 on any season to date because I juts hit a wall of Boredom. The endless grind to get levels just gets old as well as having to doo all the storng holds / dungeons and then them in nightmare over and over just gets old. I would probably have a different outlook if I didn't have to re level from 0 every dam season
D2 over 1000 hours D3 over 500 hours D4 barely hit 60 when I just had enough. Damn even a year later and Blizz barely doing the bare minimum to keep D4 fun. Nope! Not getting any $ out of me again Blizz. Waiting for POE2 and Titan Quest 2. Way too many good games out there to waste your precious time on this mediocre, uninspired, and not creative game like D4.
@disbled 1000 hours is a good bit. Especially as an adult. It's not astronomical or anything, but most people don't have 1000 in any game. Not many games worth putting that much time into either.
@@disbled it is for an ARPG game where you can literally "finish" the game in like what 35ish hours being pretty slow tbh, so he played for 980+ hours more after "beating" the game? If you consider that "not alot" then you need to examine the games you want to play. People don't want to play the same game after beating it for thousands of hours, the game people like yourself want to play is an MMORPG which can almost be never ending content to do?
@@disbledwhether it's a "lot" or not isn't really the point. It's the fact that the number of hours the poster have on these other two prior games greatly enjoyed them more than D4. That's the point they are making. The numbers presented are just to provide a scale.
I think the idea that streamers getting to end game significantly faster, and sort of spoiling everything and then formulating opinions about how there is nothing more to do in the end game within 1 - 2 weeks because they put in 80 hrs is a valid argument. Before everyone knew every possible experience because there were no videos of others playing games, everyone just bought the games and talked about them at school etc.
Nah that's cap. Only a small amount of people actually watch streamers and most only see them as a reference. The game literally failed it's casual player base. I got 4 people I know that bought the game (and have friends that got it) and me who is the only one of them that watches streamers, am the only one that stuck with it lol and even I gave up at lvl 80. Streamers kept the game alive more than harmed. If someone says they didn't play because of a streamer, they were never going to play or quit immediately.
I only really dipped into diablo4 recently again and dont you need to get the recipes for the tempers first? So for someone who just recently started "tempering you stuff at lvl 1" isnt possible at all. right? tell me if im wrong, i stopped playing already again because I just dont really enjoy Diablo that much.
You are completely missing the point being made in the other video. I mean, like COMPLETELY missing it. Diablo 2's Endgame IS Hell difficulty. So the bulk of the actual games content is just the game itself. The focus was never on an ever moving treadmill. Elden Rings endgame IS the games content. The expansion simply adds more content. There is no ever moving treadmill. In both instances you can progress your character in any way you like and engage with the content as you see fit, there is no perpetual grind built into the CORE of the game. That doesn't mean the grind isn't there, but it is not a CORE element of the game itself. These games at their core are so deep, they don't NEED the treadmill. So the point being made that only a small percentage of players beat or even reach endgame in most modern games is a criticism of the idea that THIS is where resources should be spent, with the further argument being made that try-hards and streamers are the reason developers WASTE their time perfecting content for a tiny fraction of the people who play the game. Additionally making the point that if all games focused on the CORE game vs the endgame, they would actually be more compelling to ALL players and be able to justify the robust endgames being developed over time. That point tends to fly's over the head of streamers. This has nothing to do with how much time people have to play. The point he is making is that character progression SHOULD NOT BE TIED TO ENDGAME... Endgame should be there for people who want to challenge their characters, but it should not be the sole means by which people are able to progress. So rather than develop a shallow game that has people bored at level 50, only to double down on the small minority of players that get through to "endgame". What the other video is suggesting is that games be developed with as deep a core as possible so that the bulk of the content is experienced by more players who then use that time investment to take on the endgame challenges. THEN the developers could focus on true endgame systems. As opposed to cut and paste difficulty slider activities.
I get where you're coming from but the core problem isn't the streamers or what they want or that the devs are wasting their time catering to streamers / focusing on end game. The core problem is that the devs failed to create a good game at its core, and had no interest in making a good game during development or post development. Itemization, social features, balance, minimizing bugs, etc. These things were never made a priority by Blizzard so we have the shallow, kind of boring game that we have. Their main goals seemed to be a smooth combat system and frequent dopamine hits early in the game, which means most people become desensitized to those hits by that level 50 ish mark and the people who did keep playing had no end game to play.
He made a couple good points. what do you think? if twitch didnt exist, would all arpgs be better?
BACK FROM TESTING SPIRITBORN NEW D4 CLASS ON SUNDAY! will be live then link below
live here: www.twitch.tv/darthmicrotransaction
No, because Twitch isn't the only site that streamers/content creators use. Not only that, diablo 4 has a skill stick instead of a skill tree. That would be the top problem for me. But we all know it isn't the only one.
My experience with playing the game would probably be better, because I get burned out on the game without even playing it by watching people play the game. That's just a me problem though.
I agree with your points, but also think that streamers are more vocal and push boundaries of something that “casual” players might never experience. It is like swimming next to olympians 😂 i just want to enjoy the swimming pool and dont want to commit to play video games for hundreds of hours.
Asking for more than 20 hours of game time every three months it is hard. and harder when there are other games releasing or other games doing seasonal content as well.
Btw, Love your content and keep growing! It was cool to see your growth in these past months
In marketing there is common sense, 80% of your revenue comes from 20% of your clients.
Honestly, I think LIFE would be better if social media didn't exist! It gives too many haters a platform for their voice. I miss the days when I didn't have to hear how I'm going to HELL from some inbred southern religious freak. When it comes to entertainment like games and films, I make up my own mind and find streamers like you to be very helpful if I'm having trouble getting through something or understanding how to play.
"if other people didn't say my game is bad, it would be good" This is some modern, social media logic.
The game sucks. Is anyone playing this season still- probably not. Just like every season until you just don't play it at all.
But it's good to the people who like it. Why do the people who dislike a product get to decide it's worth?
@@DrSpoculus we spent time on this game. We spent money on this game too.
@michaelwilkerson500 so? Why do gamers feel entitled for making a bad deal.
They advertised what you get for buying things in game. NONE of those items said they give you input on the game.
What i see when people play Diablo 4 is, video poker players. You're no different to me. You're addicted to the rush and the money spending.
If a video poker player started complaining that they need to change the game so they can win more because they've spent xxx amount of dollars on that machine in the past.... I'd laugh.
So, hahaha. Nobody cares that you're bad with money.
@@DrSpoculus you got me twisted, cause if your still playing this game - your bad with money.
I'm not going to lie. The points the video is making makes it feel like bait
or someone who doesnt understand anything about percentages or statistics or is interpreting them poorly on purpose
Yeah super stupid video. The dad players don't have time to play but time to watch streamers for some reason? I don't know what he was on about anyway... he just said a whole bunch of things.
@@WayStedYou It does seem like he is desperately trying to use his most likely purposeful misunderstanding of stats to attempt to hold up his other points that kind of suck and only make sense if you are genuinely clueless.
The bait is saying everything is because of streamers. Since it's a popular talking point and will bring out the crazies. Easy way to get eyeballs on a bad video.
@@brave1988brave this is how tons of people making videos talk these days. You'll notice it more if you start thinking and investigating the things they actually talk about.
Especially political or political-adjacent video essayists or streamers. They'll just say things and draw conclusions from thin air and say they are connected...somehow.
And this is why I choose to engage here!
Listen, I'm 57 yrs old. I raised 2 kids and I still play games today. There was a time i simply slowed or stopped playing outright while I coached football, baseball etc. to spend time with my kids.
At no time did I blame devs or streamers, I simply chose to spend time with my kids. At one point I think age 6 I started playing COD with my son. It's more about life choices, it's not about other people.
A very small percentage of the population will ever be a professional athlete BUT we still watch the NBA, NFL, Olympics etc because its fun to see the best in the world compete....I'd imagine video games will have a similar outcome ever since the creation of streaming and professional gaming.
I agree with this sentiment; it's not much of a risk of people having endgame spoiled for them if they're not getting there anyway, but it benefits them to have "all stars" playing endgame because they can be fun to watch and root for -- video gaming has room for spectator sports.
That is a terrible analogy, video games are specifically designed to be beaten by a large audience. When comparing it to sports, fewer than 2% of NCAA student-athletes go on to be professional athletes. Designing a game because "OH don't worry if it's grindy as fuck, because they can watch another person play it" is the worse train of thought.
Most people watching professional games or games in general are invested because they play those games. That’s not the truth for most people watching pro sports.
Meh, that guy is just trying to kickstart his UA-cam career by trying to create a controversy, specifically targeting a group of people who might bring attention to his channel and namedropping some well known people in the space. Instead of creating some creative and original content he delivers just a bunch of L takes.
What creative or orginal content create Darth or other prominent youtuber Asmon?
They all mostly just make react low effort videos talking.
Well, it's Genius! Kuddos to him, good plan. 😂
@@Tombitp Are you ok buddy? You seem to be struggling with that sentence.
@@leoleo1035 Why you think i'm struggling?
@@Tombitp Both Darth and Asmongold stream basically daily, that's the content they make. Sure, they also do react videos, but you're acting like streaming 4-8 hours almost daily is not making content.
Reason why the level 50 achievement is screwed is because steam had a free to play week for Diablo 4 last year. Meaning there is a millions players who probably played few hours and uninstalled because they did not pay to play, just try out. It was marketed in the front page of steam so most likely there are some clickers who had NO IDEA what the game even was about.
That is a very good point, free to play weekends/weeks will mess up the steam achievements.
not to mention that steam charts aren't going to be very accurate for overall numbers on things players did for this game because it launched on the blizzard platform first.
it also had something like level cap of 20, or at least that is what people were saying when I tried the game out through that free to play week
most players simply never finish a game they start. The average completion on steam is only 20-25%.
To add, a lot of people play the diablo story and than quit. While playing the story, it is not necessary to hit lvl 50. So people play the story and stop before reaching 50.
By this logic, streamers ruined Skyrim. 30% of people never completed Unbound
What? 😂
There is no logic in his argument.
Oh its worse than that. 48.9% do not have the achievement for getting to level 5!!!! (on the steam special edition version - keep in mind that playing with mods turns off achievements)
TBF the reason for that though is because of mods, alot of people on pc dont know they can reenable them and they are turned off by default with any mods loaded, since the games been out forever thats really the reason as most people are replaying it and installing before even booting the game. Not to defend this guy mind you but its not exactly compareable.
I got Skyrim on deep discount on some Morrowind/oblivion nostalgia. After the absurdly long start I had to watch and look around that I had no interest in, the first thing I do is start wandering then get punted into space by a giant. Shut it off and uninstalled.
in my experience, the problems streamer encounter when blasting the game, the casual player encounters the same problems but 3 months later
I consider myself a casual gamer and I had 3 lvl 100s in about 4 days maybe a week and thats playing very casually. I love how easy it is to lvl characters cause my fav part of a game anyways is farming for my end game build.
@@subzero308You are not a casual player. You are probably in the top 1%, definitely top 5%..
@@subzero308You are exactly what's wrong with Blizz games, the idiots who give the loudest feedback are NEVER "hardcore" players.
"Guys, I'm not a hardcore WoW player, I only run +22 Mythic+ keys and raid 4 nights a week on 3 alts to gear up our guilds main raid group to clear Mythic difficulty on week 2." "I'm practically having a new player experience!"
@@subzero308 Why lie? Power leveling to 100 is taking 8-10 hours and 3/4 more for leveling glyphs. You had ~36 hours in the first week to game? Youre fulltime, not casual
This guys logic is the dumbest ever... "most people only got 5 hours a week and never make it to or past level 50"
His answer "make more classes that these people won't play and raise skill point level cap from 50 to 70"
He literally is saying we need to make the game more casual while arguing points that only hard-core players will like lol.
@@Michael-Phantom true, and even with 5 hours you should be there at most in like 2-4 weeks of play. My friends.and I got there in the first night of play this season farming hell tides and a few dungeons. We do play a lot and have a lot of ARPG knowledge, but we weren't "sweaty" about it. None of us are using build guides or looking up leveling strategies. We are just farming the game. I have no idea why so many people are trying to act like it takes a 100 hours to get to 50.
@@starfreek101 Guarantee most people quit and never looked back after season 0, when it DID take an absolute eternity to hit 50 (let alone 100). I never even managed 100 in season 1 either and I was playing quite a bit then, too (hit 74ish) - it wasn't until S2 that levelling became way faster, and by then people that hated Season 0 were never coming back. I haven't had any issues hitting 50 (and 100) post S2, but it did actually take significantly longer before S2.
@@Shmandalf I almost made it to 80 in the preseason before I quit out of boredom. I played briefly in the next 2 to see if I would like them(I didn't). And I have played a little this season as a friend was trying the game for the first time. It was far faster as you say.
Just bc us 30 y/os with 7 wives and 30 children dont make it to pinnacle doesnt mean we dont TELL OURSELVES we can. We dont want less interesting things to chase just bc we dont always reach them...
He's pretty condescending to "gamer dads" with his points, like we somehow don't know how to play a game. Any point after that was lost to my apparent dad "stupidity".
I guess I should just load up my level 100 character and play that nonexistent end game content he says I'll never see... which is true, but not for his reasons.
Also what content is he thinking of adding for these people that don't have time to play the original content in the first place? Is blizzard going to sell them more time in their day???
@@nickh4354 Exactly this. If people can't find the time or the " skill " to run Helltides until over level 50 then adding in 100 classes or 100 bosses to kill sub level 50 won't matter because they clearly don't have time or skill to kill them anyways. It sounds like this guy wants Blizzard to add in a shit load of cosmetic only content that is going to be easy enough for his casual ass to farm for instead of making loot based reward systems. Which would be fine if he just said that, but he is trying to do some bullshit round about argument to seem 5head by blaming uber sweaty players instead of just admitting he is a casual that can't kill harder content.
Im a dad gamer, in a clan of dad gamers and we all hit 100 every season and usually end up with top tier gear and fully fleshed out builds on multiple characters...
It's utterly stupid to blame customers for a product's failure.
echo of lilith being the hardest boss in the game yet only drops 2 health potions killed it for me.
Not much use for health potions when she OHKO's you every 5 seconds.
that's more of a your dopamine addiction problem, play for fun and do challenge related content for the accomplishment. beating uber lilith in pre season on druid with 14 damage post armor nerf and pre resistances doing literally anything is a boss fight i will never forget. even after quitting diablo 4 after season 1.
Lilith is the worst and not fun boss at all. 2 hit KO max stat rogue
Lilith is literally just learning her move set . It's a LTP issue 100% just learn .....
SO ITS YOUR FAULT!!! FANDOM SCUM!
How the fuck would streamers affect people not hitting lv 50? 50 wasn't hard when the game launched and I would argue was the best part of the game early on. So yes the fact that he's using steam as his metric is fucking ridiculous to begin with.
You are right, that was the only enjoyable part of the game at launch.
This is one of those situations where the reply completely covers and dismantles the original argument. I'd have a ton of respect for this creator if he posted a follow up after watching this video, admitting the mistakes in his take.
The player base is not "everyone who owns the game" the actual player base is the people who have that "reach level 50" achievement. The idea of a player who is so unfathomably bad at the video game that they can't reach level 50 in hundreds of hours of gameplay is... absolutely a myth. And designing the game around people who don't exist is a bad idea.
Yeah this video is BS, dudes completely clueless.
Yeah, they didnt get to 50 because they tried the game and they concluded its bad so they stopped.
@@metallboy25 Yep that's me. I got it at launch. After about 10 hours I uninstalled and haven't gone back. Game is forever bad.
@@joelhodoborgas He should watch "Designing Path of Exile to Be Played Forever", the GDC talk by Chris Wilson. Chris goes over this in great detail
It is worth noting that it is pretty easy to finish the story well under lvl 50 in D4. There may be players who prefer the story part of ARPGs. Nothing tabled here gives any evidence on what percentage of gamers this may be, nor how much they may spend on extras. I was shocked at completing the story at lvl 42, and how dull it felt trying to get to 50 to unlock paragon. The video was not a well articulated argument, but I would argue that streaming in general does throw up challenges for developers that weren't there 15 years ago, and finding the right balance across their players is one of those. I quit at 50 and went back to PoE though 😂
I only heard about DarthMicro through a Streamer spotlight from Blizzard and now I watch DM instead of playing Blizzard games.
@@ScottNicholson86 I will say the most recent Diablo 4 season has many of the QOL features that should have been there a launch that completely turned off to the game. I am only playing with a friend of mine that just started and she only plays this one at most 1 nights a week so I haven't seen the new end game stuff yet, but it sounds like they have taken some steps in the right direction if that is taken into consideration in addition to the changes I have already experienced. It still isn't going to replace POE or LE for me, but it at least is less frustrating than before.
People who don't hit level 50 aren't watching youtube videos. You're asking content creators to make content for people who will never watch it.
Also, why no link to this creator?
Right off the bat, the first argument of only 35% achieving end game. This isn't isolated with just video games. Comic books are a prime example, the volume sales from top to bottom are, 1, 2, 3 and by the end there is less than 30% of the original buyers actually finish the series. TV shows have the same issue with viewers. UA-cam Channels have the same issue with subscribers. This isn't a video game/streamer issue. People often try it, don't care for it or find something that entertains them more. To blame this on streamers is simply unjustified. I assume this topic was done less about talking about a problem and just doing it for clout. All other arguments after that mean nothing.
No one can ruin a good or a bad game... but those who create it. People don't just outright quit a very good game lmao.
Exactly, doesn't matter how much time you have to game, if a good game is a good game people will continue coming back to it
Streamer said game bad, game bad. Sadly there are people like that but it's not the majority
The vast majority just play the game and move on. They quit after the campaign or even earlier because it didn’t speak to them. I’ve seen some Hollow play throughs where he 100% some games. He also tried D4 and never played any top down rpg. He played one session. The start till he got to kiovachad. And never continued
Only 51% of Path of Exile players have the achievement for beating Brutus, the Prison Warden; a boss half-way through Act 1. Free the Scion achievement happens pretty near the end of Part 1, and less than 30% of players have that. About 15% have the one for completing an endgame map. I think it was one of their devs who said an astonishing percentage don't beat the first area, never-mind reaching endgame. But that 15% that get to maps, have a LOT of achievements. That 15% is 'the PoE playerbase' not the 49% who can't manage to get halfway through Act 1.
That's not really a fair comparison, though. PoE is FREE to try and Diablo costs $50 just to get in the door. PoE is also incredibly and unashamedly casual-unfriendly. It's not surprising their achievement metrics are abysmal. BUYING a game for $50 and then choosing to not play it is a very different metric.
Look at Elden Ring. 30% never defeated Margit
Chris Wilson talked about it again a couple of years ago. It was less than 10% of players who left act 1, who completed the campaign. However, of those who completed the campaign and entered endgame, be described it as "then we got them hocked in". As of those who entered endgame content, saw a 90 ish % retention rate, which also are the ones who becomes paying players, via the MTX and cosmetic shop.
That's the problem with POE...It's like .01% of Diablo Players will play POE endgame, and that will never compare to 8 million players or the money blizzard is making...POE is not even a treat to diablo cause it is basically played by the 1% hardcore arpg community and that is very little money...
@@Otisdic I don't know where you got your numbers but seeing how well things are going for GGG, I wouldn't say it's "very little money".
Not only that, they also have full player faith and support behind them, which is not something Blizzard can claim to have, except for bootlickers and weird masochists that like to be abused.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think if you have a lvl 100 char on console and you buy d4 on steam and you play that char, you wont get the achievement of leveling to lvl 50..? I had it the other way around on my xbox
I'm one of the "gamer dads" and even with a few hours a week I was 100 in less than 10 days, 100 Nightmare Dungeons, up to 60 in the Pit, built out my build, tempered and masterworked my gear pretty adequately.
To its credit, Diablo 4 is one of the most respectful ARPG of a player's time around. Even with limited time you can experience most of the content in the game.
Not through the whole thing but this bugged me: If they only have 5 hours to game, how are they finding time to watch their favorite streamer play instead?
Watch and play at the same time?
for example when i go to the office i got almost 1h train commute. Usually watch videos or read a book during that time.
Insert diablo immortal phone meme here
Pre-S1, the game had an abundance of issues, and a non-existent end game.
Blizzard then nuked their own game twice by:
1) nerfing all high density mob areas people used to farm and level, and
2) the legendary pre-season 1 patch that drastically nerfed players, while simultaneously buffing monsters.
Blizzard ruined their game; not streamers.
Tru dat
I literally quit before season 1 because they decided to nerf every class lmao
I quit on that nerf came back s4
@@themissingpeace7956 same; that patch killed the last shred of hype and hope I had for future Diablo games, since D3 was also a massive L until reaper of souls.
@@jaydunne203 Same
The average gamer dad out there with 14 kids, 6 jobs, sleeps 3 seconds a night and have 7 minutes to play a season/league/cycle per month doesn't need more content, ever.
So people who play a game a lot or more are ruining it for the casuals??? Why would they care about how much anyone else plays?
Lvl 50 in 30-60 mins?? Well i am slower than i thought
It’s a bit hyperbolic, but 60-120 minutes in Helltides in season 4 will get you to lvl40+ easily.
Not in the campaign though
I was in wt3 in 45 minutes, and wt4 in 2 hours on my character that I specifically speedran those achievements for. I did the first capstone dungeon at level 18, and the 2 capstone dungeon at level 40. After that, I was level 80 at about 6 hours in. I'm not a speedrunner in any regard, I just took advantage of the xp buff mid season, with elixir and incense off cooldown. It was my 3rd character though. So I used legendary tempers to hyper boost some level 1 legendary gear and just went for it.
@@Steph1but the vast majority of first time players don't play the game like that. The only ones who would even know how to "power level" themselves that early in D4 are ones who watch UA-cam channels on the game. No one who buys the game and creates their first character just runs out and does helltides first thing.
@@NotSoFast71 true, especially because I think they’re not active until you complete the campaign at least once 😅
@@Tfiskyou should harness that energy and drive.... And go utilise it in a more beneficial area of your life 😂
Content creators also allow the viewer to experience some endgame by watching, if those people never get there themselves...
But to keep the streamers playing for so long, they often artificially stretch out the leveling process so much, it turns off many "regular" gamers. I know lots of gamers who play a lot. None of them want a game that takes over z hundred hours (without power leveling or cheesing the game in some way) to get a max level character. Especially if the leaving process is boring and/or repetitive.
I finished the D4 campaign at around level 43. Then I'm supposed to look forward to 57 more artificially drawn out levels to reach end game made so specifically to keep streamers rolling on for weeks on end?
@@NotSoFast71 It's not done for "the streamers" though, but just part and parcel of a highly monetized service game. Yep it sucks.
@@NotSoFast71 what you are describing is an ARPG. That is just the genre of game and it isn't for everyone. You spend hours and hours farming to make your character stronger so you can take on stronger content until you clear everything or decide you are done or start a new character.
Diablo 4 isn't as good at doing this as others, but most arpgs also drop items that can be used for other classes and builds to give you new ideas to create new characters. For instance arpg seasons/leagues I play I end up making 2-4 characters and getting them to end game. The characters after the first one usually have at least some gear and a plan from the character before it. Every ARPG I have played is like that to one degree or another. Diablo 3 and 4 actually have the fastest leveling in any arpg I have played if you don't count rushes in d2 which you can't do solo and isn't really "playing" the game so much as sitting there while someone else does.
I am the cliche Dad gamer kids, job, yada, yada. I played Diablo IV a couple hours a night for a couple weeks (pretty sure I never made level 50) and asked myself: what the hell am I doing?
Blew 80 bucks for about 16 hours of...confusion? I don't even know how to describe my experience. It made no sense, I had all this shit in my bag and didn't know what to do with it....a skill tree that was outright confounding and the whole season/difficulty level/etc made it even more confusing.
The worse part is that the D4 skill tree _could_ *fit on a single page* but the dumb UI designers forced players to scroll because they wanted to manipulate people into thinking it was bigger then it really was.
I got to level like 67 or something in pre-season 1 D4 and haven't ever played it again.
I know people with 1000+ games on Steam and 99% of those games were quit the first 5 minutes of playing, so they are just stuck there forever not touched. So seeing 30% of player base get to over level 50 is a very high number.
Sounds like you know a bunch of idiots that could simply refund the games.
30% of the player have the achievement for ranni ending in elden ring, which doesn't include people who only did the regulars endings or the frenzy ending.
So no, something as easy as reaching lvl50 in diablo should be way above 30%, only issue is the game is so bad people are stopping before doing that
@@Uryendel you don't know the scale of games if you think 30% is low. You also comparing live-service game with single player that don't need online mode to work
@@XENON3120 I'm comparing a challenging game that require 80+h to finish with a game made for toddler where you can reach 50 in 30h.
And being live service has nothing to do with it.
Hes basing this all off of Steam achievements too, forgetting there was an almost 4 month period where the game wasn't even available on Steam. I'd wager its closer to 45-50% which is a pretty good number.
I've never been on board with the "most players don't beat the first boss" arguments
the ony boss in d4 that gives you problems that normal every day "gamer dads"will struggle with due to the one shot mechanics is lillith cuz you cant really out gear her, now that blizzard have stopped the cheeseball builds that used to skip all her mechanics ,
@@mistermofo28I mean true but not at same time I have thorns barb and it’s pretty easy. I feel having my 110k health way out gears her. And my rouge which I hate I was able to beat cause of the easy stagger and high damage from barrage. I’m
A dad gamer. But you are right for the most part but I also see that people don’t even try cause why try when tormented bosses drop all the good gear ppl forget that. No point in wasting time with one shot mechanics when you can get best gear else were.
@@steelewearinc6140 100k hp with a bash barb will still get you one shot still had to dodge mechanics. Think by the 4th hit I was getting one shot.
Found it more fun previous season where we could just simply skip the mechanics by tweaking a build . Ie HOTA, twisting poison blade . And the Wiz with rotating a balls .
But yeah kiling Lilith is kinda pointless it just a tick in a box . For 2 legendary throwaways .
Get more reward sitting in hellltide for 5 minutes.
Or one shotting duriel
Or in tormented duriel 5 or 6 hits.
I have one thorns roll on my bash gear and use the thorns bleed skill. And I can just stand there with Ubers and they die.
So god knows what a thorns barb can do
Guy is a baiting jerk for sure however there is some truth in that point just not for the reasons he implies. Look at steam, check achievements and you will see percentages of people who got achievements in games across the platform. Even stupid achievements in games like "Make your first character" or something are never 100%, why? Because sometimes people buy games pre-order and then FORGET they have done that, the pattern is there but it isn't because it is impossible. A lot of gamers buy games and never touch them.
Agreed. They aren’t players. They are people that tried the game and quit. If you haven’t given the game 4 hrs of gameplay then you don’t get to alter the game based off your opinions.
A couple things. D4 is designed to waste time, initially it was designed for more casual players, but every decision they make is llooking through the lens of player engagement. Not player fun, not player fulfillment, not retention, engagement. They designed all the inventory to be as cluttered as possible, they give us no stash space, put all the vendors as far away as possible. We had to force them to change the way renown works. My point in all this, streamers aren’t ruining Diablo, D4 devs are ruining Diablo. Micro transactions are ruining Diablo, engagement metrics are ruining Diablo, live service is ruining Diablo. Make Arpg’s fun again.
When did we stop saying "get good?“ I'm a 44 year old gamer papa (3 kids with their own xboxes) that has a full time job and has 3 characters over 100, 2 barbs 1 sorc, 99 rougue, the other 8 are either over 80 or close (rep stone farms) all since season 4... This season is so easy that the only way you aren't enjoying the game is IF YOU AREN'T LISTENING TO THESE GUYS WHO ARE STREAMING RESEARCH SO YOU DON'T HAVE TOOO.
It's all about how much you like it and the ability to learn what works, period. You are never going to get those numbers back because they didn't like the game enough to get good or find someone who can tell them how. Now some may comeback to see new buzz but they aren't the target audience because they are just following trends.
People will blame everything but the common denominator, the developers.
literally bullshit and you typed it. Blaming the devs is a meme at this point and you say this nonsense? lol
@@DreadedLad88 How's that Blizzard boot taste?
@@DreadedLad88 your boot, sir. get to licking it.
People seem to be unable to separate developers from the company.
The devs can want to do all sorts of things but if the suit overlords have other plans then oh well. I think its better to blame the suits in general, not devs.
Streamers are not ruining games. It’s those butthurt cry babies ruining their own experience by not using their brain to form their own opinions.
DM, you’re one of the best content creators I know of these days. Informative, straight to the point, great insights, and perfect humor. Keep up the great work buddy.
After taking a quick look at Steam, more people are level 50 than have completed the campaign. A better basis of comparison would be those who have finished the campaign. For example, only 7.7% have defeated the Echo of Lilith, but that's actually almost exactly a quarter of people who completed the campaign (pretty good, imo).
Maybe they should “Normal, Nightmare & Hell” difficulty when logging in with your character, like Diablo 2. Each where you have to complete the campaign.
One major detail this guy either doesn't realize o is ignoring is that when he talked about 65% of those players stopped at level 50, like Darth mentioned, is because they stopped playing. He was talking as if these players that barely get to level 50 are still somehow playing but never play the end game content. Like, either those players literally are playing like 1-2 hours a week or they simply stop content gets too hard or too boring for them to continue.
The only reason these games survive and keep getting updates is because of the 30% of players that play consistently into the end game content. Why would any developer ignore those players and just let these other players meander around hardly playing their game?
I stopped playing at 50 because that's where the story stopped. I got bored grinding dungeons, so I quit. I'm sure there are others with my opinion.
you think players stopping to play the game doesn't correlate to the quality of the game?
30% will always be the margin of long time players but Blizzard can decide how many millions fit into those 30%.
That video is what happens when you think about something for 5 seconds and not for 6.
1:15 btw this is just based on Steam player numbers, I'm pretty sure Blizzard doesn't disclose player numbers on their og launcher sadly, unsure why they're afraid to do so.
Steam achievements are also known to be buggy at times
They used to do it all the time before WoW started declining and then they stop reporting active users. I bet there was a policy put in place to stop the numbers as a bad public perception from data like that could affect the stock price.
Bro is arguing to not add content to games. What lol
The first flaw I saw in his argument is that games, and especially ARPGs, have been loaded down with endgame content since long before streamers were a thing. ARPGs usually have a leveling experience that's more or less an extended tutorial, followed by a bulk of content at endgame that's there for the players who want to spend the time with it. And it's been that way for decades.
The campaign (game) has always been the tutorial in arpgs. You're absolutely right.
Exactly this. It sounds like this guy is one of those casuals that is either can't do content or gets bored easily grinding for power creep loot. He probably wants Blizzard to make leveling super slow and fill the open world with hidden treasure boxes for people to " explore " for those " collection " driven players to have 100 hours of content that doesn't revolve around playing the actual game. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind players having access to cosmetics to collect and whatnot, but this guy wants Blizzard to force people into a Vanilla WoW style pace so he has excuses to meander around and not feel like a bad player.
This game is game as service ….that’s change things a lot
@@AzsuraX Let my guess, your arpg experience started with D3 or later?
@@TheGast4321 Vanilla D2, close though!
I’m a dad who just opened my first restaurant 4 months ago and I have had to take my time getting to 100 but I don’t mind. I’m not gonna blame the game or devs or expect that any game ever is being made for me. I am not who they create games for. I am a casual with not enough time and I’m enjoying myself. I also live vicariously through DM and I appreciate watching his content and seeing him do what I can’t. Much love amigo.
Diablo brand has been around for four decades already and the only one that can ruin them are diablo devs themselves.
Was curious about this so checked on xbox. Doesnt show the numbers for amount of people but "only" 25.54% of people whove played on xbox have reached a lvl 50 character as well.
I just want to point out that Baldur's Gate 3's lead dev, Sven Vinke, specifically said in an interview that the team at Larian does not make game elements that will be seen by 80% of the players. They look at what the 20% are doing and cater to them. The point being that the 20% will be so excited about what they've found, that they will tell the 80%. In short, putting things in that most won't get to increases the depth of the game and the sense of discovery. For an ARPG like D4, putting in mechanical systems that provided additional depth and customization is not something that most will get to, but does enrich the game in the same way.
Clearly we need more content that's only made for people in the first hour of gameplay. Nothing for the late game. That's all wasted content.
Exactly, we need 10 hours of content in the first hour. Clearly 👍
On a more serious note, I think the point isn’t really to add more content for the first hour, but to improve systems that make the entire game (including first hour) more fun.
But he doesn’t make that point properly
Leaving completely aside what makes the company money or not... Creating more content (be it early content like more classes to choose from, or endgame content for those that play nonstop) won't have any effect whatsoever on those people that already don't play the current early content. He pointed out that most people don't even reach Lv50... they don't finish the early content... so let's give them even more early content that they don't finish? What?
That being said... Everyone wants more classes. I wouldn't necessarily tie that to "early content" or "casual players".
A game developer I watched in an interview made a great point. They said that there is very little return on investment in making a released game more inviting for new players. He explained it this way. People who play games are smart enough to realize pretty quickly whether a game is one they will enjoy playing or not. Pretty quickly they will realize how the game plays, what the goals are, what kind of time investment is required, etc. If a player realizes this game isn't for them, it doesn't matter how simple or rewarding you make the early game, how well you explain things, how much you hold their hand. This is why most games see a huge drop-off in players within the first few hours of a game. The only way you will retain many of the new players is to make a entirely different game, which isn't economically feasible. He saw this in his game and confirmed it with the experience of other developers. The best, and perhaps only, return on investment is to keep creating the kind of content that will keep people (who already play the game a bunch) playing the game; investing their time and money into it.
Where his argument falls flat is most people who play D4 are in the blizzard ecosystem and did not buy it on Steam. I know I bought it directly from blizzard as I had wow accounts and d2 reworked game too etc.
That is the only thing that made any sense in his argument, he is using steam achievements so it draws from steam users only everything else he said is wrong a gamer dad as he put it who plays casually isnt going to spend time watching end game content if they have never reached level 50 themselves and only have an hour to play
@@WayStedYouhe must be a democrat the way he cherry picks data lol
I'm a senior producer in games so I'm exposed to KPIs on a daily basis and this guy's comment about the % of players achieving something is very ignorant of facts. Some of the most important KPIs for games are day 1, 7 and 30 retention. Meaning, are people logging back in after trying out the game. For browser games (no downloads, direct play on browser), D1 retention on average will be 20%. For mobile games (downloaded game, but typically casual), you're looking at 30-40% D1 retention to be healthy. For PC games, about 35-40%. But then if you get into genre specific, it gets very tricky! ARPGs in particular have one large crowd that bounces back and forth between many big ARPG titles and with those players, even the casuals, you'll see big numbers like 50-55% retention for D1. It's HUGE, but those guys are not the majority of players. The bigger the studio, the bigger the marketing, the bigger the reach, the more players NOT part of the ARPG crowd will join your game and then you're looking at ABYSMAL D1 retention. We're talking 10% or less. So if the guy in the video went and looked at super easy achievements that you'd normally get within 10-16 hours of gameplay, you'd see the % is also quite a bit less than 100%. People not from the ARPG crowd who are exposed to the genre are frequently overwhelmed. That's why D4 is designed the way it is. They're trying to reach a bigger audience and convert people, but they'll run into some really bad numbers along the way. It's absolutely expected.
I also want to add that he's commenting "why are people so hellbent on end game?" and the answer is simple. The people you weed out by the nature of your genre were never your target audience to begin with. That's ok. PoE said it best: once you get to maps, GGG owns your soul. When you provide the crack-like fix of end game to ARPG enjoyers, you've got them forever. Those are the people generating your revenue. Supporter packs, stash tabs, etc. D4 could have been free on launch with a proper shop (not their current actual garbage) and they'd still make solid revenue.
İn every game there are like %4-5 of hardcore players that are gonna play the game whether or not game is good regardless of player count.Theyll be playing that specific game no matter what happens.%50 of player base are just casuals who gonna play a few hours to see if the game is good and move on but left %25-30 ish ppl are gonna show up in every update day,gonna play it for a few weeks on a daily basis and look for another update and so on.These guys are why the games like Warframe Poe Destiny live years and for Diablo s case when I reach endgame,I cant even stand to 2 hour of gameplay let alone a week because all you do is doing helltides for the rest of the gameplay.
Also... maybe the point is a criticism on the approach of game design and how it seems to focus on endgame for a minority of the player base instead of focusing both: full length of the game as much as end-game
Always admired your level-headed responses DM. Your impartial views are what make your videos great.
In my opinion, it's still a good thing that there is endgame stuff added that a casual player like myself will never reach. I don't want to commit time to a game if I know there's nothing to do once I get there. As long as they don't ignore the mid game (season 4 has shown they aren't), then I have no problem with them building out the lackluster endgame stuff.
One bit I thought deserved mentioning more is basing the assumption about retention purely off steam achievements is skewed, as a large majority of Diablo fans would have picked it up on Battlenet well before it was even announced that there would be a Steam release
If only 35% of people cant reach level 50, they havent beat the campaign. Why is Blizzard created an expansion at all if no one is finishing the base game? Feels like a large misunderstanding of how to actually view player counts and use that data.
edit: should have listened longer. None of these points actually make any sense in the reality of game development.
You can beat it well before level 50
Where were you going with your point anyway. If people havent reached max level yet then its blizzards fault or something? Im asking because I hear that opinion so much and not just for d4
@@WayStedYou finish campaign is also an achievement and stands at 30%, so almost exactly the same, but also kinda a more sensible point. Either way, that clown should really not make videos. its embarrassing.
@@eric7069 Well not max level, just beating the campaign, which doesn't take a long time(relatively speaking about ARPGs) and was fairly easy to do. People are "done" with their characters at various points in characters progression depending on the person, so I wouldn't ever take making it to max level or attaining a certain level of character power as a metric, but but not being able to finish the base story on a game you paid for is something many people evaluate when looking at a game's success. Now there was a free weekend for the game, so I think those numbers are useless anyway as that would allow lots of people to try it without buying and then put it down when they realize they don't like it, or never had an intention of buying it in the first place. That said the people that do finish are the "playerbase" that they need to design around as they are the ones that didn't quit just a couple hours in and will probably be the ones coming back over and over for new seasons and buying the expansions.
There was many reasons i couldn't get into d4 despite trying. A big one for me is the monetization, Hate seeing all the best looking stuff in the shop for 20-35$ per item bundle or Mount. I've honestly been back on D2 res and Last epoch. Waiting for the Grimdawn expansion plus Titan Quest 2 is coming at some point!
Wait you can't get into d4 because of the optional cosmetics? To each their own I guess
wile i agree that its kinda shity to have so many consmetics in a fuking 70$ game,if that somehow makes you not enjoy the gameplay...something may be wrong with you mentaly
@@xmusic2049it’s ok if you don’t get it
I have been playing warhammer inquistor and i am having a blast suprsingly. I like Diablo 4 but waiting for expansion.
D2R is super good. Bliz needs to go back to making new seasonal rune words! Mosaic was crazy and then they stopped when D4 dropped. >.
65% of players realized there is no reason to play past level 50.
I finally got past lvl 50 with season 4. My problem is I’m not a fan of just grinding. I like questing so if there was a continuous quest chain all the way through end game I’d enjoy it more. Just doing helltides or whatever gets boring quick. I haven’t played in a few weeks but I think I’m almost 60…not sure if I’ll continue or not as I play FFXIV and a ton of single player rpgs in my backlog lol.
"Why make more content if most people don't ever get to it?"
"Gimme 10 total classes, G"
Brother, you just said most people don't get to certain content for endgame. Why add in more classes if most people aren't going to get to them? I don't know if this guy really thought his points through
you don't need to get to "the endgame" to make another character with a new class you haven't tried yet and play the campaign with them.
@@velorama-tkkn Endgame simply means "gameplay after campaign/main story". Though you may be right, you don't technically need to finish the campaign to start a new character. But then I ask you; why would a casual player actually do so if they haven't even seen the full story? I highly doubt that the amount of people that get stuck and start a new character overtake the amount that get stuck and outright quit
@@velorama-tkkn if you don't reach 50, you're not creating a new character.
This video shows you how disconnected Streamers/UA-camrs are from reality and it's amazing.
The only thing it shows is how stupid his points are.
100% Agree
This is 100% accurate, I stopped playing at level 49
Love the vid man new classes would be awesome but where the game is now I’m excited
Using steam stats for Diablo 4, is using the smallest possible selection of Diablo 4 players with very skewed stats. D4 wasn't even available on steam at release.
Using the casual "dad" to excuse lack of complexity in a game or difficulty is an trop that is getting old. Dad's that want to game will game Dad's that don't won't.
Season 4 reduced leveling time, increased end game activity, and is D4's most successful season so far, that in its self countermands this guys stance at a base.
Of course we want more classes, who doesn't, it doesn't take a genius to make this observation.
It is funny that I see all this "gamer dad" stuff when I've been a gamer dad for 16 years and played tons of games, including POE and WOW fairly constantly. I'm not even convinced all the people complaining actually play. I saw people in the comment section saying it takes to long to get to end game when I got to Wt3 this season with a few hours of grinding dungeons/helltides/strong holds, I'll probably be in Wt4 next time I log in with friends(I'm only playing this season because I have a couple RL friends that wanted to, well that and I was curious to check out the reworks which seem to be quite good so far). If they can't even put that little amount of effort in...are they even gamers?
Edit:I forgot to mention that there was a free weekend done for D4 on steam so that number is useless at this point anyway.
Being a dad doesn't mean you're limited to an hour a day of gaming. People quit D4 because it's shallow not because of lack of time. I'm a dad with 2 kids and a job, I play from 8.30pm to 12 am every night (primarily WoW).
Listening to D4 videos while working makes me want to play the game at night, at this point I'm watching crossout and palworld vids cause I've already got two 100 level charectors this season alone and got my prepaid expansion but I won't play again until my season 5 Barb
I do think it would be nice if there was some more mid to late game content added that made getting to the full endgame content a bit more streamlined.
It would be nice to have a path to getting to the full endgame have a bit more variance so it does not bore people out of playing the game before "completing" it.
I got to 78 in my D4 playthrough before I quit. That was when it dropped. After the campaign I wasn't enjoying the dungeons or anything at all, and at that time the guys I play with had already moved on. Story pulled me through D4 but once I finished that, end game was ass. Not to mention I only found one class interesting to play, and fun to boot.
Last Epoch, I've go 4 level 100 characters of different builds, and have enjoyed the monoliths. Even without playing with my friends, I found Epoch 100 times more enjoyable than D4. UA-camr's didn't ruin D4 for me. They opened my eyes and showed me what awaited...
Last epoch is just a much better designed game. It was better than D4 at launch a year or two before it officially released, though I guess multiplayer wasn't implemented until the year D4 launched and that was rough for a while, though a beta so I had no anger about it at all.
Why TF is this guy using Steam cheevos as a benchmark? Most people don't play on Steam since it released first on Battlenet and it's not worth re-buying.
Because steam is easy to track and there's a large population that will only buy games through steam.
@@InsomniaticVampire Most people that would buy Diablo would have bought it on Bnet...
@@VincentViolence 40,000 peak users is probably a big enough pool to make assumptions.
@@InsomniaticVampire Just because it's easy doesn't mean it's accurate. You can't just use a small subset of the data and make arguments as if it's representative of the whole situation
Chris Wilson from GGG (Path of Exile) has several times talked about player retention. The last one I can remember, a couple of years back, it was sub 10% of players who ever finished the main campaign. And from those reaching the endgame (completing the campaign) they sees a player retention of the high 90%. So his basic analysis was, that if they can get them to endgame, then they are hocked in.
However, their design philosophy are also a bit different from many other games. Chris has stated that they are fine people stop playing, and coming back again at a later date. So it aren't the same rush to be this "one-game-forever" mentality, where they are deadly afraid of people stop playing. they know that the vast majority of their players, who reach that part of the game, will come back and invest loads of time, and buy many cosmetics.
This has given them a design incentive to make the campaign and leveling experience as good as possible. Because if they can make more play though it, it will result in more players entering the endgame, and becoming paying players.
I would agree with what he said if getting to the end game was still hard, but since it is completely accessible even to people with limited time then adding to the end game is only logical now. Although more classes would be great too.
Im not going to waste my time, this is my own opinion being a long time gamer. Streamers are ruining gaming. Go and watch any sports game pushers on Streams. Then realize innovation was left behind for greed. They have ruined sports game, cause all sports games think people are like streamers. Streamers are like parasites. COD, do not get me started.. I do not know if you yourself did. But in fact, streamers are ruining games.
Personally I think it's the lack of a finished product that ruined D4 for me 🤷♀️
nope.
@@montreauxsdelusion… *convince yourself*
@@montreauxs Yes
I'm pretty sure if we go back to NES games, most people never finished most games then also. (outside of Super Mario Bros, think Legend of Zelda, etc.) That was the time before streamers. What ruined those games, the instruction manual? 💀
12:25 this is something i actually agree with and have been thinking about for a while. I think there should be stepping stone sets of armor early game that you replace later on since no one uses uniques anymore. My point being if they want the best of the best gear than they have to create it themselves (since thats the direction we are going in with tempering)
I dont think uniques should have random affix numbers, i think all uniques should be like Ubers and have a set amount because theyre such build specific pieces that guide you along which build direction you want to go with your character and then eventually unequip it for something better.
The main point here is that unique gear is the hardest to find and the least useful which means we have to make uniques stronger (like adding tempering or making all uniques on par with ubers) or make the uniques early game stepping stone pieces we replace later on.
It also solves the “casual gamer” who doesnt know how to play problem because it gives them a more focused place to start building their character instead if the games RNG loot decide FOR them. And if thats the case than i think there should be one time only target farming bosses and dungeons to have a more early game experience that feels meaningful to the player AND THEN they take their unique set to the final world tier and craft something more individualized to their play style (the repetitive grinds part of the game)
Where as the unique sets can be the early game ‘meaningful’ part of the game where you adventure a mini campaign for your one and done finished sets with no mixing and matching or RNG crap (like uber gear)
Some people call it “fun builds” where they create the character they want to use even though its not powerful in the current meta but behaves interesting on screen or has a style or charisma about it they find appealing ( like a chill build necromancer… crap build fun character)
Another point, let's say 100M players, only 20% will reach level 100, that's still 20M players. Majority and minority doesn't mean the same thing for 20 players or 20M players.
Interesting point, even Warcraft at its highest didn't have 20M players, I believe it maxed out at 13M. So 100M.. but I get your point.
@@screamingiraffe well if you look at all time instead of peak its more viable (if your looking at wow that is).
@@screamingiraffe It comes from Pareto's Law. 80/20 rule. 80% of your revenues come from 20% of your customers. Etc...
all there is to do at max level is grind gear grind grind grind
wow congragulations you've discovered the entire point of almost every diablo game besides the first one. Technically endgame starts at around level 50 or whenever you beat the campaign. So you played another 50 levels and then complain when there's not much left to do. Bro you beat the game move on and play something else.
@@cptmtnsinstant gratification with todays gamers. There are still ppl trying to find all the gear from d2 lol. Everyone wants the best gear given to them. There in the wrong genra of games for that. Solo games would fit them better
Probably the wrong genre for you then, as that has been the main point of ARPGs since I started playing over 20 years ago. That is perfectly fine. Every game isn't for every person. I hate both racing and sports games, but those are super popular. That said a large problem with the grind in D4 is it wasn't interesting past a certain point, there wasn't enough there. I quit around 80 because I was bored, but I will play some POE leagues for 1-2 months 1-4 hours most days. POE, and even Last epoch just have more ways to grind with different sources for items and crafting materials, more ways to build characters, not to mention they have actual crafting systems so it just doesn't get boring as fast.
As someone who has little time to actually game sometimes as you only have a very short time there is occasionally no point loading up the game as progress would be so small.... watching a streamer can help with seeing how when you do get time how to maximise your in game progress in that short time.
I agree on the more classes. Seeing as how they already have a lot of classes in the franchise, and this being the 4th in the franchise, really expected at least 10 classes to start with.
As a dad gamer and someone who falls somewhere in between the casual and the gamer that can play a lot, I believe the problem isn't the end game. The problem lies somewhere closer to the seasonal grind. The game incentivizes starting over to enjoy the seasonal content. I prefer continuing my character instead of resetting every season. I played Diablo 3 and pretty much never even knew what seasons were for the longest time and I didn't interact with them. I probably have 2500 hours in Destiny 2 and they don't make you reset you character to do the seasonal story. I think that would help with retention rates.
You are the problem 😂
@@webdesigntutz that's one way to look at it.
Agreed
This whole Theorie falls apart if you have players like me that dont even play d4 over steam and have not added it to thier acc
And i am sure i am not the only one who sees no reason to do so
Love your channel D. Even though I am not really an ARPG fan, with the exception I am playing the hell 2 mod for Diablo1.
You know? I think I know what ruined D4. It starts with a B, and ends with a D. Yes. "Band". Called Evanescence. Damn those bastards!
I want to understand this reference so bad
The implication is Blizzard ruined the game lol
@@Tyler-xf9nu Implying blizzard but putting something else
dm you are awesome bro but in this case you are out of touch, most people don't make it to the end game because the front loaded stuff is boring and doesn't get enough attention. it's the same issue that plagues MMO's. invest 100 hours to get to the fun part, why? when I can fire up some other game and have fun right away. I have plenty of time and the end game in d4 just isn't engaging enough. focusing on time isn't the point, the point is that the focus on end-game when the initial experience sucks is a waste of time. the example about 10 classes is excellent, I've leveled a few classes in one or two seasons but once I get to the end game grind I move on, it's boring. I think that streamers that think they have a "time to play all day" market cornered are totally out of touch. Myself, and many of my friends are not streamers and we are putting in 8/9 hours of gaming a day on most days and are all 40+. The issue is the game not the time. This dad with 80 kids and 5 minutes to play is another reddit fallacy.
This is how you have a conversation. No yells, bad words, laughts, funny jokes, just plain arguments. Good job.
I think theres hope in loot reborn. I think theres a new form of grinding that can entice the new gamers attention span that devs arent exploring. People nowadays love digital collections but hate the old school grinding. People are willing to grind but theres a wide preference. I think what they can do is combine the transmog and loot system. I think the gear can be an unlockable and only needed to be looted once. You can entice casuals or semi hardcore players that just want to collect all the armors and weapons. Then to allow class builders to enjoy the grind have materials that reroll and improve gear stats rather than needing to grind for another tempest roar with 3 perfect GAs. Tempest Roar drops once but you grind for mats to reroll and improve the gear. Have build preset saving so you can switch back and forth. It makes the grind easier but it wont stop players from grinding because its too easy. Min maxxers will min max all day.
People don't make it to level 50 because the game is boring and repetitive. Make the game fun to play the whole way through, and more people will play for longer.
To be fair... the campaign was really fun and engaging. The skill tree up to level 50 was really cool... I think I beat Lillith in Tier 2 at lvl 48 Pre-Season.
So saying 1-50 is boring and repetitive is false. Playing 1-50 whilst skipping the campaign? Yeah. Boring and repetitive.
They don't make it to lvl50 because they either don't have time for gaming, or because they are horrible in the game if not ALL games. move on.
Lack of content was the real killer for me
I’ve had to delete several level 100’s to make new level 100’s in D4, man I’m a loser…
You're not a loser bro. You have friends like us. 👍 😂
You don't hear this enough but we appreciate you you're so informative we need you.
I want to start a new game campaign with my max level build...like we used to be able to do, I want more permanent content, not just seasons. If they focused more on stuff that matters instead of bs seasons, Id be happy....look at immortal...they have the blood knight....what do we get on D4....some stupid spirit class........lame in my book
anyone wanting more of what immortal has, has no place in this convo. you arent wanted here and neither are your ideas
@@cloudnine5651 sorry, you are wrong about that. we do want more of what d3 and immortal has. feel free to return to your echo chamber.
@@zero_196 umm no. not a single d4 player wants want immortal has. immortal is the laughing stock of the industry
@@zero_196😂😂😂😂😂 great joke
All the casual players his talking about, are the same players that don't look up guides and videos on youtube on how to optimize their gameplay.
I don't think he understands those statistics he's using to bolster his bad arguments. Nobody needs guides on their way up to level 50. That 65% of 'casual players' are really just people that quit playing altogether.
Right so if you decide you want to get better on your own through trial and error and experimenting instead of following the step by step instructions from someone else who just so happens to have much more time available to them to do the mathematics you are a casual? Got it.
@@zedorian6547 Can't believe you replied something as dumb as this.
Nvm, it's the internet, I shouldn't be surprise.
or watch streams if they have an hour to play they aren't gonna watch a man who doesn't understand retention statistics on steam he has no clue what he is talking about
I think its worse than that, because even those people can easily hit over level 50 just by doing Helltide for a few days. With how simple stats are now, if those same players simply stay the course til 100. Put on any offensive aspect that remotely sounds like it goes with a particular main damage skill, along with enchanting and masterworking a single time. Just doing that can get you strong enough to kill the normal version of the bosses that drop uniques. That's 90% of the game on its own.
Anyone that can't do that much, is just someone that gets bored easily doing the same things over and over. They are the people who play a game like Classic WoW, never reach max level after months because they are just running around role playing, leveling fishing skill, exploring side quests, etc. They may eventually stumble into max level and do some basic dungeons, but that'd be the extent because they jump from new thing to new thing too often.
"Why even have level 51 content" basically lol
I'll speak for my self but I haven't made it to level 100 on any season to date because I juts hit a wall of Boredom. The endless grind to get levels just gets old as well as having to doo all the storng holds / dungeons and then them in nightmare over and over just gets old. I would probably have a different outlook if I didn't have to re level from 0 every dam season
D2 over 1000 hours
D3 over 500 hours
D4 barely hit 60 when I just had enough.
Damn even a year later and Blizz barely doing the bare minimum to keep D4 fun. Nope! Not getting any $ out of me again Blizz. Waiting for POE2 and Titan Quest 2. Way too many good games out there to waste your precious time on this mediocre, uninspired, and not creative game like D4.
500 and even 1000 hours isnt a lot
@disbled 1000 hours is a good bit. Especially as an adult. It's not astronomical or anything, but most people don't have 1000 in any game. Not many games worth putting that much time into either.
@@disbledmaybe not for the top 1% gamers… but saying one THOUSAND hours of playtime in a game is not a lot is wild and borderline disturbing lmao
@@disbled it is for an ARPG game where you can literally "finish" the game in like what 35ish hours being pretty slow tbh, so he played for 980+ hours more after "beating" the game? If you consider that "not alot" then you need to examine the games you want to play. People don't want to play the same game after beating it for thousands of hours, the game people like yourself want to play is an MMORPG which can almost be never ending content to do?
@@disbledwhether it's a "lot" or not isn't really the point. It's the fact that the number of hours the poster have on these other two prior games greatly enjoyed them more than D4.
That's the point they are making. The numbers presented are just to provide a scale.
I think the idea that streamers getting to end game significantly faster, and sort of spoiling everything and then formulating opinions about how there is nothing more to do in the end game within 1 - 2 weeks because they put in 80 hrs is a valid argument. Before everyone knew every possible experience because there were no videos of others playing games, everyone just bought the games and talked about them at school etc.
No one is forcing people to listen to streamers. If this is a problem for you, then dont watch them. You can still play the game with zero knowledge.
Nah that's cap. Only a small amount of people actually watch streamers and most only see them as a reference. The game literally failed it's casual player base. I got 4 people I know that bought the game (and have friends that got it) and me who is the only one of them that watches streamers, am the only one that stuck with it lol and even I gave up at lvl 80. Streamers kept the game alive more than harmed. If someone says they didn't play because of a streamer, they were never going to play or quit immediately.
This dudes out here saying "cap" then literally making shit up himself. Today's gen in a nut shell @@Shingeki__
how does that effect the gamer dads who arent watching the streamer? they arent going to say "This is bad because gamerbro69 said so"
I only really dipped into diablo4 recently again and dont you need to get the recipes for the tempers first? So for someone who just recently started "tempering you stuff at lvl 1" isnt possible at all. right? tell me if im wrong, i stopped playing already again because I just dont really enjoy Diablo that much.
Yeah I agree with you DM. I got 4 level 100s this season and I barely got 1 character to 100 before season 4
You are completely missing the point being made in the other video. I mean, like COMPLETELY missing it.
Diablo 2's Endgame IS Hell difficulty. So the bulk of the actual games content is just the game itself. The focus was never on an ever moving treadmill. Elden Rings endgame IS the games content. The expansion simply adds more content. There is no ever moving treadmill. In both instances you can progress your character in any way you like and engage with the content as you see fit, there is no perpetual grind built into the CORE of the game. That doesn't mean the grind isn't there, but it is not a CORE element of the game itself.
These games at their core are so deep, they don't NEED the treadmill. So the point being made that only a small percentage of players beat or even reach endgame in most modern games is a criticism of the idea that THIS is where resources should be spent, with the further argument being made that try-hards and streamers are the reason developers WASTE their time perfecting content for a tiny fraction of the people who play the game. Additionally making the point that if all games focused on the CORE game vs the endgame, they would actually be more compelling to ALL players and be able to justify the robust endgames being developed over time.
That point tends to fly's over the head of streamers.
This has nothing to do with how much time people have to play. The point he is making is that character progression SHOULD NOT BE TIED TO ENDGAME... Endgame should be there for people who want to challenge their characters, but it should not be the sole means by which people are able to progress.
So rather than develop a shallow game that has people bored at level 50, only to double down on the small minority of players that get through to "endgame". What the other video is suggesting is that games be developed with as deep a core as possible so that the bulk of the content is experienced by more players who then use that time investment to take on the endgame challenges.
THEN the developers could focus on true endgame systems. As opposed to cut and paste difficulty slider activities.
💯 💯 💯
I get where you're coming from but the core problem isn't the streamers or what they want or that the devs are wasting their time catering to streamers / focusing on end game. The core problem is that the devs failed to create a good game at its core, and had no interest in making a good game during development or post development. Itemization, social features, balance, minimizing bugs, etc. These things were never made a priority by Blizzard so we have the shallow, kind of boring game that we have. Their main goals seemed to be a smooth combat system and frequent dopamine hits early in the game, which means most people become desensitized to those hits by that level 50 ish mark and the people who did keep playing had no end game to play.