When I was in Japan, the house we lived in had a tankless unit made by Rinnai. About half the size of the smallest one in your video. It worked beautifully! There was a remote control box installed in the kitchen. It allowed you to turn the unit on and off and control the temperature from inside the house. The water was brought to temperature almost immediately. For me tankless is an easy choice.
Matt - Your videos have always saved me hours of product research online. I now send your video links directly to my clients. They also love your videos. Thank you and please keep them coming!
I have three electric tankless units located next to each point of use. One under the kitchen sink for sink/dishwasher/washing machine, one in each bathroom for the sink/shower. Not everyone can install smaller units like that, I planned for it during a remodel. When you install one large unit for the whole house there are two issues. By installing smaller units you have several advantages. 1. Smaller units are usually electric. Electric tankless don't need to be vented. Venting cost money to install and maintain, not only that but every molecule of air which is vented out of the house negatively pressurizes the house. Which increases HVAC costs. Electricity cost more than gas, but doesn't require venting, which offsets that difference somewhat. 1a. Smaller units can be installed close the point of use, inside cabinets, under counters, in nearby closets. 1b. Because the unit is installed close to the point of use there is instant hot water. In larger whole house systems, whether gas or electric, tank or tankless, when you turn on the water you have to wait for the cold water to cycle through before you get hot. Smaller systems are installed at the point of use, so the hot water is nearly instant. 2. By having the unit so close to the point of use there is very little energy waste. In many hot water systems, both gas and electric, the water has to be piped 20-50 feet on average. Those pipes need to be installed, insulated and maintained. The longest run from heater to tap is around 8 feet in my house. That's only because I have a shower head in the ceiling, not the wall. 3. Smaller units don't require significant rewiring of the breaker box. They can be connected with a 220V outlet (Some are even 110, but that won't run a shower) 4. If you have multiple smaller units, if one unit fails the entire house doesn't lose hot water. So for instance I have two bathrooms. If one unit has a maintenance issue it is shut down, while the other is still operable. We can get by with hot water in one bathroom until a service can be scheduled. No more costly emergency service calls.
Hello, Dawt Calm-- Thank you very much-- this is the best, most concise and helpful information I've seen about tankless. I just bought an old house, vacant for two years. The hot water stinks (due to bacteria growth while idle, i understand), so am planning to go to tankless. Thank you very much. This is what I've been thinking to do-- three small electric units, and your comments confirm the practicality of this. Thanks ✅ Also, from my reading, it sounds like Europe and Asia use tankless water heaters far more than the ol' vat we're used to here in America. I like the idea of getting this 40-gallon hazard out of the house.🙂👍
My ole water heater is going out after 22yrs.. I am considering installing tankless and watched this video to gain more knowledge. Thanks for the high quality video and simple to understand overview!..
Just got the largest Navion dual , domistic and water heating boiler installed. Such great technology in the new heaters. To be free of Oil AND 24 /7 240 electric hot wayer , im very happy
Your point on size and regional temperature is spot on. I have a tankless. I live in NY and I totally notice the temp difference between a hot summer day and a very cold winter night.
Matt, thanks for another informative video. I really appreciate you clarifying the issue of how long for payback on the energy savings of tankless, explaining that the biggest selling point is the unlimited hot water, not saving energy. Ever since I upgraded from a 20 to a 40 gallon water heater I’ve never run out of hot water, so I’m glad to know that there is little reason for me to change to tankless.
Tankless also pays you back over the long term in a couple other ways: 1) supposedly, they typically last longer than tanks (~20 years instead of ~10 years), 2) it's much easier to replace one lightweight tankless heater with another than to deal with two 150+ pound tanks, one of which is actually much heavier since it's partially full of water and sludge.
Hi Matt. I'm loving your videos. I watched one yesterday and subscribed. I've worked in the building industry all of my adult life. I'm 65 now and want to build a small masonry/framing solar home for myself and your videos have a lot of valuable information that I hope to learn much more from. Thank You
Congrats Matt! You made it over 100K subscribers (like over night?) I swear the count was at 99K just yesterday. Great way to ring in the new year! We love our endless water (Noritz unit, 94 % efficient.) Great comments. Another bonus for the 90+ models in new construction is being able to plan ahead on the gas line needing to be sized to be able to supply the 199K BTU. The only thing I don't like on ours (because I have not installed a circ pump) is the sandwich effect. When turned on, the hot water is warm (from previous water in the line), then goes cold (from the water that has slipped by the heater) then finally gets hot from the unit producing hot water. At least I can plan on that at the beginning of a shower, and not run out of hot water before I'm done!! The more of your videos I see, the more I appreciate the building science approach! Thanks again! - Wally
If you want to add an extra return plumbing line from your fixture (back to to the water heater or at least to the last split before the heater) you can install an on-demand recirculation pump (at the water heater or the fixture). Then what you do is open the hot water tap for a split second then close it, then wait 10 seconds for the recirc pump to push the cold water sandwich past the fixture then when you open the tap you get full constant hot water. I don't recommend installing a recirc pump without a return line (unless you like warm water out of your cold tap all the time).
Right around 5:30, I’m in New York and temps have been colder than normal past couple of weeks. My unit is inside however still getting colder water. I’m sure you already know this but it helped a bunch being able to move the burner temp up a couple degrees to satisfy my needs of hot water. Currently 24*f and I maintain 112 @ the heater and adjust accordingly. Great video, very informative!
I upgraded from old tank water heater to an ao Smith 96% efficiency model. Installed it myself. Was a bit of a pain but no regrets. I did it primarily for efficiency but the endless hot water is nice too. I would recommend the condensating model even if you have to drill a hole in the side of your house for the intake/exhaust.
In a retrofit situation, I often still install the condensing models. I use a condensate neutralizer to correct the acidity of the condensate water, a condensate pump, and the old pressure relief piping to get it to the outside.
Hey Matt, I have owned/installed 3 Bosch tankless and 2 Rheem hybrids, in houses I have owned, with much satisfaction. However!!! Last winter (sometime in April we had a severe freeze. During that freeze, due to a power outage, my most recent RTGH95xlp developed a leak. I called warranty and PG&E. Both told me that I was out $1200 bucks. The small leak is in the area of the top intake tube going into the stainless pre-warmer compartment. I took the heater guts apart from the enclosure (enough to slide the guts toward the top to expose that plastic elbow, p2). I couldn't determine where the leak is (no split or broken on fittings or copper tube). They tell me at Rheem that there are no repair parts available. The woman I spoke with was very cold and unconcerned about my plight. So, I do not recommend Rheem.
Matt happy new year! I love all your videos! I gutted/remolded my 870 sq ft condo in Florida & ALL your videos helped. I made my handyman look at your pocket door videos before he installed mine. Also your sooo HANDSOME!
Hey Matt... I'm not sure for up north, but here in South Florida, and as an electrical contractor, for an electric tankless water heater, I have had amazing results with EcoSmart tankless water heaters. The brand you showed today I have had nothing but complaints here especially with not heating water that well. I personally havr an ecosmart eco27 in my home and I will NEVER go back. Ecosmarts are also a LOT smaller and slimmer than most others and most of the time less expensive! But I know everyone's got their own preferences :)
My tank’s lifespan is just about up and it’s in the attic( don’t ask why a builder thought this was a good idea.). This video has really helped on which unit to use.
Good summary Matt. I found going w/ a condensing model for my retrofit was the best option. It was right above a laundry drain, so no issues with condensate. The additional cost of the condensing unit was offset by the savings on installing the more expensive concentric, stainless venting needed by the non-condensing unit. And it was easy to run the new PVC exhaust vent up in place of the old tank heater venting. A couple of 22.5* elbows allowed for the needed offset to line up with the roof penetration. Unit has been running great for 3 years now and is using about 1 therm of gas/mo. compare to 6+ for the old tank heater. Payback time should be under 10 years in gas savings.
I installed a Takagi T-H3M-DV-N heater. You can search for a video entitled "Checking out the new Takagi Tankless Water Heater" to see more about it. I think it was the best heater for my situation and it's been working great.
Yes, that's why I mentioned shopping around. I used that seller, they also had all the service valves and assorted bits for the conversion from a tank type heater.
I wouldnt say that yet, wait and give it a few years and u wish you will get a tank again. How long did you put in that tankless? I bet you only put it in about 2years or so?
I have used a Takagi for 13 years without an issue. Next to the furnace so venting was not an issue. The natural gas input line had to be resized so it could supply both the furnace and the hot water heater. Pumps between the hot and cold water at the end points give almost instant hot water. Gas line and pumps were the major expense not the hot water heater with installation. Also put one in my mother’s house for both hotwater and radiant heat. It works very well doing both functions.
For the acidity issues it depends on the plants around whether they will die or not. Pines and Firs like acidic soil it helps so they don't have to share nutrients and Hydrangeas change color depending on whether the soil is basic or acidic.
I just installed a Rheem gas tankless condensing unit - because our old Bosch W.H. failed without notice so we bought what was readily available - we needed hot water. Installing the unit itself was quite simple but our model was very heavy to lift into place. My vents are not final yet - AND - we have not had any condensate produced from the unit's condensate drain :-)
You should include the fact that if installing a non-condensating tankless model, but have a vertical (through the roof) exhaust vent then it will create condensate. In fact, if the exhaust must raise more than 2 feet above the unit it will create condensate. I didn't know this and am now having to buy extra parts to install my unit.
@Matt Risinger I think you should mention the duct on the middle unit has high heat in the middle, but it's a two way vent, meaning the intake is surrounding the exhaust. There won't be heat to worry about on the vent pipe. Also, another factor on going with the condensing units is they are rated Energy Star and can give you a tax credit on your income taxes, up to $600.
I have a 20+ year old Seisco electric on demand hot water heater. It still works perfectly and support has been great. The only downside is this year my electric utility instituted peak demand charges onto residential electric customers bills! So the 28KW peak draw costs me a few extra dollars every month. On the plus side I have never run out of hot water in over 20 years and can take as long a shower as I want or fill my 48 x 72 inch tub any time.
Hi Matt, could you include a total cost of ownership comparison in these videos? A true cost comparison for me is starting from an existing tank heater and would include every expense from acquisition cost, replacement cost (plumbing charge to remove old unit and install new), operating costs over lifetime, and maint costs over lifetime. Thanks! great videos
I work in the salon industry, we have over 300 tankless units in operation. We have 3 different brands. So given my extensive experience with them, I would choose a tank, every time. We actually only use them because they are a lot less expensive than a commercial tank unit. Unfortunately in the residential setting, the tankless unit is a lot more expensive. Go with the ever reliable tank, avoid the more expensive tankless in your home.
Hi, I live in Michigan and I'm always buying a water heater I'm thinking about going tankless because of my flooding problem. I want thank you for your unbiased opinion
Most important point missed- some instant systems today come as a combi unit- where you can run hot water to heat your house and domestic HW. That’s when the real savings kick in. Get rid of your big old boiler and one tiny machine can do it all!!! Savings are big, currently lots of utilities and cities offer nice rebates or other form of incentives.... do your research on your local incentives..... I have units that run up to 250k BTUs to do heat and HW.... work great!!! Keeps monthly bills down!!
Yes, also need advice on electric tankless, in my case, point-of-use (POU). In my case we get plenty of hot water from the current 50 gallon tank hot water heater (just two of us in the house). Unfortunately, we have a long run to the kitchen on the other side of the house through a cold, concrete foundation in Albuquerque (in the South, but at cold, high altitude). Would like to put a 15-18kw under the sink, since we have about a 60F required temperature rise and solar panels providing almost all our yearly electricity needs. Will have to put 220v line in over the roof.
... Also, what do you think of the economics of using point-of-use electric tankless water heaters at the bathrooms (2+), the kitchen, and the laundry room of a new house build, especially if you have solar panels offsetting your electric costs?
Any thoughts on the latest generation of tankless electric models? My builder was impressed with the latest one he installed. I've spec'd a heat pump unit as I wanted the cool air produced (hot AZ garages couldn't be more perfect for HP water heaters). Tankless electric (if actually functional) would be nice for all electric, net zero/ off the grid homes.
I use two electric tankless running in parallel (180 Amps total) with a 120gal tank on a circ pump. The tank provides a buffer for peak usage (six bathrooms plus three dw & two washers) yet still allows me to have continuous hot water to meet typical usage. The alternative would have been to add a third tankless.
I like the sealed combustion idea that way your not chucking air you paid to heat or cool outside. I would love for someone to figure out how much that costs to operate a non sealed system. Great video
Thanks for this, Matt. Have you heard about LG washing machines not being compatible with tankless because the LG washers pulse water, and the tankless needs a steady flow of water demand to fire up the burner.
I live in RI and have a possible carbon monoxide venting issue with our 3 yr old Kenmore gas hot water heater. I thought a tankless heater didn't need to be vented, and your video just totally bummed me out big time. Now I gotta call in the hvac guy to replumb the vent tube, which is a tough and costly job in my old house.
Good videos. Very clear. Couple points to toss out there, for what it's worth. Not sure if they were discussed: 1) Another possible benefit of going non-condensing if installing in a basement is the unit would be consuming some basement air for combustion. Although it is air you paid to condition, that additional bit of air movement and consumption on a daily basis may help reduce the humid basement effect, and prevent or mitigate possible basement mold issues. 2) PVC venting works and is easy. But on long-ish runs especially with condensing HWH's and boilers where condensing element runs back down the exh vent pipe, there is research out there that indicates chlorides can leach out of PVC and cause pitting to common stainless heat exchangers over time. It does not occur with Polypropylene or stainless venting. Like I say, depending on the installation it may be worthy of consideration. Thanks for your straight-forward information...
I'm a big believer in as few of holes in your roof as possible. So the condensing with pvc looks even better as its easy to vent out the wall instead of the roof.
Cody Holifield I'd bet that more people have access to gas than the amount of electricity required to run an electric tankless. They're ridiculously power hungry, even more so than many electric furnaces.
Micheal, A 5K system wouldn't be able to power one of these. Electric on-demand heaters are power hungry. More like 25Kw, or more, just for the heater (when it's on.) For a solar system, that'd be the worst choice you can make.
Tankless electrics put a ton of strain on the electric grid. They require very heavy gauge cable too if modifying from an existing tank system (10 gauge wont do at all). Some models require 3 double pole breakers (6 full breaker slots) just to power it. The other option for electric only houses is a heat pump tank water heater. Matt has a few videos on these as well as "ask this old house". Heat pump might be a good option if you live in a cooling dominating climate and have a place to put it like a garage or attic.
For an all electric house, I’d recommend a tank with a mixing valve so output temp is regulated at 115F and the tank temp is 140... nearly limitless water.
I've had to use the stainless steel venting in a previous install and it drove the cost of considerably. My only question is what about venting through a brick chimney? Does the condensate destroy chimneys? Would I have to run stainless all the way to the roof?
Matt, I have a new build starting in a week or so and have been contemplating using a high efficiency tankless unit. My issue is with the home being on a 1000 gallon propane tank. I don’t want the tankless to eat up the limited resource of propane....We are looking at two bedrooms, three baths, and stacked washer and dryers in each of the bedroom walk-in closets. My wife and I will be the only two living in the house. I’d like to hear your thoughts on this...Thanks for all of your videos!!
@Rob Janson, what did you end up doing? We are about to break ground on a new home and the builder has plans to put in a tankless propane water heater on a 100-gallon propane tank. Nervous about having to refill it frequently, especially with four kids. Any thoughts or experiences so far would be appreciated!
Interesting. My house has a Rinnai tankless heater installed. According to the label on the front it is 85% efficient, splitting the difference with the ones you showed. It also has a PVC vent and no condensate to deal with.
Ryan Roberts yea he was rounding. He can not be expected to memorize all the stats for all water heater models. Exact numbers are I believe.82 for the left model .84 for the middle one And .93 for the one on the right
How does a condensing version compare in pricing? I don' think I heard that? Would like to have heard about the mechanics of how a condensing works vs a non-condensing. On cold days in SWFL like now water flow really degrades! Lastly whats code say about distance to venting for a window that can open? Thanks!
I have saved $25 dollars a month on gas, so in 5 years I have paid for the tankless vs. tank, Plus they last 2x longer .It take a little time for water and you have to by pass the hot water anti scald off you shower valves, but I would take them off anyway.
We've got a cold stretch here in Boston. You here of any units freezing from the intake? May happen if not used much... I have a hybrid unit so it's always warm. You didn't discuss the hybrid. AO Smith. I have an Eternal
I've heard of issues with reverse air flow in freezing temps. When the non-condensing units are not running, cold air enters possibly freezing the exchanger due to other appliances creating a vacuum on the building envelope.
Are there any brands or units that are not worth buying or that are going be a problem ? I don't mind the maintenance if it is like you have shown, we do have a problem with lime here so it will need cleaning out but once a year is not too bad. Thanks man
Great channel. I'm subscribed. Question, i live in Chicago. Natural Gas. Going tankless. Should i go with Rinnai or Navien? I would rather spend more money up front and have better quality. Just wondering what your experience has been as i don't know what company makes the best tankless. THANKS.
I have a very old gas tank water heater. I'm thinking about going solar so I thought it would be best to switch to an electric heater and I would like the tankless. What would be the best tankless water heater for use with solar?
The other thing too consider is that at full flame condensing will lose some of that efficiency. There are many technical reasons but let me try to put it in simple terms. Think of driving a car and your running at red line to get maximum power which means maximum gas flowing to the injectors. Generally to heat water that fast one is running at the red line. The main efficiency one gets with an on demand heater is that only runs when the tap is open which is why I like mine.
Thanks for this info. How can I get more information about a Rinnai tankless outside unit RUS 65eP with the "still fire" option? Thank You. Wayne from Ontario Canada
I have a Rheem tankless water heater. How can I speed up the delivery of hot water to the showers. It seems to take about 3-:5 mins for the hot water to get to the outlet.
The problem not addressed in the tankless is some utilities you will need to get a larger gas meter at the house that incurs an addition monthly meter cost.
Matt, do you think it's worth it to upgrade from a gas water tank to tankless for me in terms of money savings? I live in Vancouver BC. Our water temp and gas prices are pretty low .
Matt, I had hoped that you would mention whether those gas water heaters use electricity. I know that sounds contradictory, but many gas tankless water heaters still need 120v ac, to ignite the gas. For those of us who want to be able to have hot water when the power goes out (like after a hurricane), that doesn't satisfy our needs.
I have a 40 gallon gas water heater(tank). Thinking about going tank less but there is not electrical outlet in the closet where the tank is located. I think one has to have an outlet to plug in the thermostat but I'm not sure.
Hi Matt, I am building new home in the country side and thinking about your suggestion of the condensing model, but I do not have a county sewer, so I have a septic field. Do you think the high acidic would kill the micro organisms I need in the septic tank? ? ?
I wasn't going to comment but feel like I need to help a few folks make this important decision. If you will notice the Energy Star sticker on the first tank, it says the annual cost is $551. My gas water heater has a sticker like that that says $167....I believe it is always more efficient to heat water or air with gas than electric. The Energy Star program ratings are based on average utility costs but they are based on the same averages, so they are generally relevant for comparison.Another aspect not mentioned and most people don't think about it is the fact that tankless do NOT provide instant hot water. In addition to waiting for the water in the line from the heater to the point of use going down the drain, you also have to wait until the tankless heater can adequately heat up the water in the small coil inside to begin to give you any hot water.I work for the largest LEED Certified home builder in the country. Our homes are very efficient and have an average HERS score of 65. Pretty low with no credits for a solar system...what do we do? We install typically a .93EF rated electric water heater and use a manifold system to get hot water to the point of use as efficiently as possible. If you want instant hot water? Add a recirculating system at the furthest point of use that has a timer to turn it on a few minutes before you want to use it, and turn it off when you go to work or go to sleep.Don't want to keep a tank of water heated all day or all night? Put it on a timer too, and have it turn on 15 minutes before you get up, or get home from work.In case you haven't noticed, water is becoming more scarce all the time and is getting more costly. Most of my clients have much higher water bills than their electric bills and all of that water is just going down the drain. What a waste....This may not be for everyone, but the "system" I just described works well for most people and even if you just add a timer to your existing water heater, you'll save a lot of electricity and water too.Electric tankless? Wow, don't let me get started. If your home normally has 200 amp service and you want electric tankless water heat, you will have to increase service to 300 or 320 amps, have larger wire, conduit, and a larger panel to accommodate the two or three double pole breakers to feed the monster.The only time my clients have ever run out of hot water is when they have a huge soaking tub that holds 50 gallons of water or so and they aren't using that every day. You could also get a supplemental small point of use tankless like the ones featured in the ads that pop up under this article, like the one from Home Depot for less than $140 and put it under a sink at or close to the point of use.I hope this helps you make a good decision and determine what is best for your situation. Good luck!
Great info and great video. After watching your video on tankless vs. tank, I ended up replacing our water heater in our current house with another tank. However, we're getting ready to build a new house and this video helped me get a batter understanding of how the condensing tankless operates. A well deserved like and subscribe from me. :)
I wish you'd gotten into the gas pipeline size and volume required for these units. I've seen that on other channels but bit and pieces here and there aren't giving me a clear picture of what I need to replace my gas 40 gal heater.
do these only run on natural gas/propane? i live in an area where there is no gas hook ups and im not sure if i want to get propane tanks if i were to get something like this
May be new Tech but there are some condensing models I have found that have build in PH Neutralizers for the condensate so you can just let it drip outside or into a sink P-Trap
For a new build, does it make sense to run cold water and gas to every bathroom + laundry + kitchen and have a localized small high efficiency condensing model? Do they even sell that small a size?
When I was in Japan, the house we lived in had a tankless unit made by Rinnai. About half the size of the smallest one in your video. It worked beautifully! There was a remote control box installed in the kitchen. It allowed you to turn the unit on and off and control the temperature from inside the house. The water was brought to temperature almost immediately. For me tankless is an easy choice.
Matt - Your videos have always saved me hours of product research online. I now send your video links directly to my clients. They also love your videos. Thank you and please keep them coming!
I have three electric tankless units located next to each point of use. One under the kitchen sink for sink/dishwasher/washing machine, one in each bathroom for the sink/shower. Not everyone can install smaller units like that, I planned for it during a remodel.
When you install one large unit for the whole house there are two issues.
By installing smaller units you have several advantages.
1. Smaller units are usually electric. Electric tankless don't need to be vented. Venting cost money to install and maintain, not only that but every molecule of air which is vented out of the house negatively pressurizes the house. Which increases HVAC costs. Electricity cost more than gas, but doesn't require venting, which offsets that difference somewhat.
1a. Smaller units can be installed close the point of use, inside cabinets, under counters, in nearby closets.
1b. Because the unit is installed close to the point of use there is instant hot water. In larger whole house systems, whether gas or electric, tank or tankless, when you turn on the water you have to wait for the cold water to cycle through before you get hot. Smaller systems are installed at the point of use, so the hot water is nearly instant.
2. By having the unit so close to the point of use there is very little energy waste. In many hot water systems, both gas and electric, the water has to be piped 20-50 feet on average. Those pipes need to be installed, insulated and maintained. The longest run from heater to tap is around 8 feet in my house. That's only because I have a shower head in the ceiling, not the wall.
3. Smaller units don't require significant rewiring of the breaker box. They can be connected with a 220V outlet (Some are even 110, but that won't run a shower)
4. If you have multiple smaller units, if one unit fails the entire house doesn't lose hot water. So for instance I have two bathrooms. If one unit has a maintenance issue it is shut down, while the other is still operable. We can get by with hot water in one bathroom until a service can be scheduled. No more costly emergency service calls.
What small units do you recommend?
Good idea
Don’t forget the life span of an electric tankless😂😂. And your house electrical amperage needed
@@kaylenedowdle1310 what’s the average lifespan of a tankless? I wouldn’t imagine it’s worse than traditional tank heaters.
Hello, Dawt Calm-- Thank you very much-- this is the best, most concise and helpful information I've seen about tankless. I just bought an old house, vacant for two years. The hot water stinks (due to bacteria growth while idle, i understand), so am planning to go to tankless. Thank you very much. This is what I've been thinking to do-- three small electric units, and your comments confirm the practicality of this. Thanks ✅ Also, from my reading, it sounds like Europe and Asia use tankless water heaters far more than the ol' vat we're used to here in America. I like the idea of getting this 40-gallon hazard out of the house.🙂👍
My ole water heater is going out after 22yrs.. I am considering installing tankless and watched this video to gain more knowledge. Thanks for the high quality video and simple to understand overview!..
Just got the largest Navion dual , domistic and water heating boiler installed. Such great technology in the new heaters. To be free of Oil AND 24 /7 240 electric hot wayer , im very happy
Your point on size and regional temperature is spot on. I have a tankless. I live in NY and I totally notice the temp difference between a hot summer day and a very cold winter night.
Qui a Roma e difficile trovare
Questo apparecchio perché?
Thanks for posting this! It's so hard to find unbiased info on water heaters where I live!
Matt, thanks for another informative video. I really appreciate you clarifying the issue of how long for payback on the energy savings of tankless, explaining that the biggest selling point is the unlimited hot water, not saving energy. Ever since I upgraded from a 20 to a 40 gallon water heater I’ve never run out of hot water, so I’m glad to know that there is little reason for me to change to tankless.
Tankless also pays you back over the long term in a couple other ways: 1) supposedly, they typically last longer than tanks (~20 years instead of ~10 years), 2) it's much easier to replace one lightweight tankless heater with another than to deal with two 150+ pound tanks, one of which is actually much heavier since it's partially full of water and sludge.
Hi Matt. I'm loving your videos. I watched one yesterday and subscribed. I've worked in the building industry all of my adult life. I'm 65 now and want to build a small masonry/framing solar home for myself and your videos have a lot of valuable information that I hope to learn much more from. Thank You
Congrats Matt! You made it over 100K subscribers (like over night?) I swear the count was at 99K just yesterday. Great way to ring in the new year! We love our endless water (Noritz unit, 94 % efficient.) Great comments. Another bonus for the 90+ models in new construction is being able to plan ahead on the gas line needing to be sized to be able to supply the 199K BTU. The only thing I don't like on ours (because I have not installed a circ pump) is the sandwich effect. When turned on, the hot water is warm (from previous water in the line), then goes cold (from the water that has slipped by the heater) then finally gets hot from the unit producing hot water. At least I can plan on that at the beginning of a shower, and not run out of hot water before I'm done!! The more of your videos I see, the more I appreciate the building science approach! Thanks again! - Wally
If you want to add an extra return plumbing line from your fixture (back to to the water heater or at least to the last split before the heater) you can install an on-demand recirculation pump (at the water heater or the fixture). Then what you do is open the hot water tap for a split second then close it, then wait 10 seconds for the recirc pump to push the cold water sandwich past the fixture then when you open the tap you get full constant hot water. I don't recommend installing a recirc pump without a return line (unless you like warm water out of your cold tap all the time).
Production quality and depth of information continues to get even better! You're doing a really nice job with this channel.
Right around 5:30, I’m in New York and temps have been colder than normal past couple of weeks. My unit is inside however still getting colder water. I’m sure you already know this but it helped a bunch being able to move the burner temp up a couple degrees to satisfy my needs of hot water. Currently 24*f and I maintain 112 @ the heater and adjust accordingly. Great video, very informative!
I upgraded from old tank water heater to an ao Smith 96% efficiency model. Installed it myself. Was a bit of a pain but no regrets. I did it primarily for efficiency but the endless hot water is nice too. I would recommend the condensating model even if you have to drill a hole in the side of your house for the intake/exhaust.
How much did u save on ur monthly?
@@malinoisnation9392 40-50
Is it trouble free? Can I ask what tankless brand you have? Thanks
@@andreilesiuk9538 he said A.O.Smith brand
Great video for "newbie" in tankless water heaters.
Very clear explanation, in simple, plain English.
Thanks! 👍 👍 👍
In a retrofit situation, I often still install the condensing models. I use a condensate neutralizer to correct the acidity of the condensate water, a condensate pump, and the old pressure relief piping to get it to the outside.
Hey Matt, I have owned/installed 3 Bosch tankless and 2 Rheem hybrids, in houses I have owned, with much satisfaction. However!!! Last winter (sometime in April we had a severe freeze. During that freeze, due to a power outage, my most recent RTGH95xlp developed a leak. I called warranty and PG&E. Both told me that I was out $1200 bucks. The small leak is in the area of the top intake tube going into the stainless pre-warmer compartment. I took the heater guts apart from the enclosure (enough to slide the guts toward the top to expose that plastic elbow, p2). I couldn't determine where the leak is (no split or broken on fittings or copper tube). They tell me at Rheem that there are no repair parts available. The woman I spoke with was very cold and unconcerned about my plight. So, I do not recommend Rheem.
Matt happy new year! I love all your videos! I gutted/remolded my 870 sq ft condo in Florida & ALL your videos helped. I made my handyman look at your pocket door videos before he installed mine. Also your sooo HANDSOME!
Hey Matt... I'm not sure for up north, but here in South Florida, and as an electrical contractor, for an electric tankless water heater, I have had amazing results with EcoSmart tankless water heaters. The brand you showed today I have had nothing but complaints here especially with not heating water that well.
I personally havr an ecosmart eco27 in my home and I will NEVER go back. Ecosmarts are also a LOT smaller and slimmer than most others and most of the time less expensive!
But I know everyone's got their own preferences :)
My tank’s lifespan is just about up and it’s in the attic( don’t ask why a builder thought this was a good idea.). This video has really helped on which unit to use.
Good summary Matt. I found going w/ a condensing model for my retrofit was the best option. It was right above a laundry drain, so no issues with condensate. The additional cost of the condensing unit was offset by the savings on installing the more expensive concentric, stainless venting needed by the non-condensing unit. And it was easy to run the new PVC exhaust vent up in place of the old tank heater venting. A couple of 22.5* elbows allowed for the needed offset to line up with the roof penetration. Unit has been running great for 3 years now and is using about 1 therm of gas/mo. compare to 6+ for the old tank heater. Payback time should be under 10 years in gas savings.
Which brand/model did you go with?
I installed a Takagi T-H3M-DV-N heater. You can search for a video entitled "Checking out the new Takagi Tankless Water Heater" to see more about it. I think it was the best heater for my situation and it's been working great.
It was around US$700 last spring, price varies quite a bit so pays to shop around. All in all about $200 more than a new 40 gal. 12 yr. tank.
$190 less at Supplyhouse.com than what Amazon has it listed for.
Yes, that's why I mentioned shopping around. I used that seller, they also had all the service valves and assorted bits for the conversion from a tank type heater.
Best investment we ever made. Replaced 2x50 gal electric with one Ranai natural gas. Saving about $45/ month on electric.
I wouldnt say that yet, wait and give it a few years and u wish you will get a tank again. How long did you put in that tankless? I bet you only put it in about 2years or so?
Dude you are in my mind....... last few videos have been on subject that I am working thru as we speak.... Keep up the great work!!!
I have used a Takagi for 13 years without an issue. Next to the furnace so venting was not an issue. The natural gas input line had to be resized so it could supply both the furnace and the hot water heater. Pumps between the hot and cold water at the end points give almost instant hot water. Gas line and pumps were the major expense not the hot water heater with installation.
Also put one in my mother’s house for both hotwater and radiant heat. It works very well doing both functions.
Tank Water Heater is very conveniently , I truly recommend !!!
Great information. Make sure that the condensate water drains into PVC and not cast iron. The acidity of the condensate will erode the cast iron.
For the acidity issues it depends on the plants around whether they will die or not. Pines and Firs like acidic soil it helps so they don't have to share nutrients and Hydrangeas change color depending on whether the soil is basic or acidic.
I just installed a Rheem gas tankless condensing unit - because our old Bosch W.H. failed without notice so we bought what was readily available - we needed hot water. Installing the unit itself was quite simple but our model was very heavy to lift into place. My vents are not final yet - AND - we have not had any condensate produced from the unit's condensate drain :-)
You should include the fact that if installing a non-condensating tankless model, but have a vertical (through the roof) exhaust vent then it will create condensate. In fact, if the exhaust must raise more than 2 feet above the unit it will create condensate.
I didn't know this and am now having to buy extra parts to install my unit.
@Matt Risinger I think you should mention the duct on the middle unit has high heat in the middle, but it's a two way vent, meaning the intake is surrounding the exhaust. There won't be heat to worry about on the vent pipe.
Also, another factor on going with the condensing units is they are rated Energy Star and can give you a tax credit on your income taxes, up to $600.
I have a 20+ year old Seisco electric on demand hot water heater. It still works perfectly and support has been great. The only downside is this year my electric utility instituted peak demand charges onto residential electric customers bills! So the 28KW peak draw costs me a few extra dollars every month.
On the plus side I have never run out of hot water in over 20 years and can take as long a shower as I want or fill my 48 x 72 inch tub any time.
Hi Matt, could you include a total cost of ownership comparison in these videos? A true cost comparison for me is starting from an existing tank heater and would include every expense from acquisition cost, replacement cost (plumbing charge to remove old unit and install new), operating costs over lifetime, and maint costs over lifetime. Thanks! great videos
You have a well speaking voice for UA-cam I'm also converting my oil tank at oil burner system to a Natural Gas tankless system
I work in the salon industry, we have over 300 tankless units in operation. We have 3 different brands. So given my extensive experience with them, I would choose a tank, every time. We actually only use them because they are a lot less expensive than a commercial tank unit. Unfortunately in the residential setting, the tankless unit is a lot more expensive. Go with the ever reliable tank, avoid the more expensive tankless in your home.
You didn't really explain why to not use in residential - why wouldn't you use tankless at hone?
They are twice as expensive.
Such a good video, I don’t know how someone could give it a thumbs down
Thanks Matt for a great, and easy to understand, breakdown of these units. I'm currently prepping to install the one in the middle.
Hi, I live in Michigan and I'm always buying a water heater I'm thinking about going tankless because of my flooding problem. I want thank you for your unbiased opinion
Matt, perfect timing, I’m educating myself now for an upgrade this year. Great stuff!
Most important point missed- some instant systems today come as a combi unit- where you can run hot water to heat your house and domestic HW. That’s when the real savings kick in. Get rid of your big old boiler and one tiny machine can do it all!!! Savings are big, currently lots of utilities and cities offer nice rebates or other form of incentives.... do your research on your local incentives.....
I have units that run up to 250k BTUs to do heat and HW.... work great!!! Keeps monthly bills down!!
Matt, Love your videos. Can you also make a video comparing electric tankless heaters?
Yes, also need advice on electric tankless, in my case, point-of-use (POU).
In my case we get plenty of hot water from the current 50 gallon tank hot water heater (just two of us in the house). Unfortunately, we have a long run to the kitchen on the other side of the house through a cold, concrete foundation in Albuquerque (in the South, but at cold, high altitude). Would like to put a 15-18kw under the sink, since we have about a 60F required temperature rise and solar panels providing almost all our yearly electricity needs. Will have to put 220v line in over the roof.
...
Also, what do you think of the economics of using point-of-use electric tankless water heaters at the bathrooms (2+), the kitchen, and the laundry room of a new house build, especially if you have solar panels offsetting your electric costs?
Because its a video on Gas Water Heaters.
@@lyfhalvorsen3598 there are none on electric, hence the question
I have two tankless electric hot water heaters that I am going to install.
Excellent info regarding the condensing tankless - but why is the condensation acidic?
Just bought a 8.4 gallon rheem outdoor. Cant wait!!
Any thoughts on the latest generation of tankless electric models? My builder was impressed with the latest one he installed. I've spec'd a heat pump unit as I wanted the cool air produced (hot AZ garages couldn't be more perfect for HP water heaters). Tankless electric (if actually functional) would be nice for all electric, net zero/ off the grid homes.
I use two electric tankless running in parallel (180 Amps total) with a 120gal tank on a circ pump. The tank provides a buffer for peak usage (six bathrooms plus three dw & two washers) yet still allows me to have continuous hot water to meet typical usage. The alternative would have been to add a third tankless.
Wow hate to have ur electric bill
You should look into solar ,
I like the sealed combustion idea that way your not chucking air you paid to heat or cool outside. I would love for someone to figure out how much that costs to operate a non sealed system. Great video
Thanks for this, Matt. Have you heard about LG washing machines not being compatible with tankless because the LG washers pulse water, and the tankless needs a steady flow of water demand to fire up the burner.
I live in RI and have a possible carbon monoxide venting issue with our 3 yr old Kenmore gas hot water heater. I thought a tankless heater didn't need to be vented, and your video just totally bummed me out big time. Now I gotta call in the hvac guy to replumb the vent tube, which is a tough and costly job in my old house.
Exhaust vent
3:20 can I run about 4 feet of stainless with a ninety, then connect to an existing galvanized vent?
Thanks! My chimney is rusted through. Thinking about getting the one that can use pvc out the side of the house.
Good videos. Very clear. Couple points to toss out there, for what it's worth. Not sure if they were discussed:
1) Another possible benefit of going non-condensing if installing in a basement is the unit would be consuming some basement air for combustion. Although it is air you paid to condition, that additional bit of air movement and consumption on a daily basis may help reduce the humid basement effect, and prevent or mitigate possible basement mold issues.
2) PVC venting works and is easy. But on long-ish runs especially with condensing HWH's and boilers where condensing element runs back down the exh vent pipe, there is research out there that indicates chlorides can leach out of PVC and cause pitting to common stainless heat exchangers over time. It does not occur with Polypropylene or stainless venting. Like I say, depending on the installation it may be worthy of consideration.
Thanks for your straight-forward information...
I have a Noritz Unit and in Philadelphia/New Jersey area winter water is 38* F in Feb. Thats what you have to know before installing a Tankless Unit.
I'm a big believer in as few of holes in your roof as possible. So the condensing with pvc looks even better as its easy to vent out the wall instead of the roof.
Could you do a video on the electric ones being that not everyone has access to gas ?
Cody Holifield I'd bet that more people have access to gas than the amount of electricity required to run an electric tankless. They're ridiculously power hungry, even more so than many electric furnaces.
Lunchbox Productions I can understand that but that's my issue I have no access to gas
Micheal, A 5K system wouldn't be able to power one of these. Electric on-demand heaters are power hungry. More like 25Kw, or more, just for the heater (when it's on.) For a solar system, that'd be the worst choice you can make.
Tankless electrics put a ton of strain on the electric grid. They require very heavy gauge cable too if modifying from an existing tank system (10 gauge wont do at all). Some models require 3 double pole breakers (6 full breaker slots) just to power it.
The other option for electric only houses is a heat pump tank water heater. Matt has a few videos on these as well as "ask this old house". Heat pump might be a good option if you live in a cooling dominating climate and have a place to put it like a garage or attic.
For an all electric house, I’d recommend a tank with a mixing valve so output temp is regulated at 115F and the tank temp is 140... nearly limitless water.
Nobody else noticed the box chucker at 6:26?
I did now :)
cyrex686 : Yes, probably an auto worker !!
Ah, FedEx just delivered! Thanks!
I've had to use the stainless steel venting in a previous install and it drove the cost of considerably. My only question is what about venting through a brick chimney? Does the condensate destroy chimneys? Would I have to run stainless all the way to the roof?
Matt, I have a new build starting in a week or so and have been contemplating using a high efficiency tankless unit. My issue is with the home being on a 1000 gallon propane tank. I don’t want the tankless to eat up the limited resource of propane....We are looking at two bedrooms, three baths, and stacked washer and dryers in each of the bedroom walk-in closets. My wife and I will be the only two living in the house. I’d like to hear your thoughts on this...Thanks for all of your videos!!
@Rob Janson, what did you end up doing? We are about to break ground on a new home and the builder has plans to put in a tankless propane water heater on a 100-gallon propane tank. Nervous about having to refill it frequently, especially with four kids. Any thoughts or experiences so far would be appreciated!
Matt is the man. Smooth talker and nice looking : )
Interesting. My house has a Rinnai tankless heater installed. According to the label on the front it is 85% efficient, splitting the difference with the ones you showed. It also has a PVC vent and no condensate to deal with.
Ryan Roberts the ones he showed are actually around 83 percent efficient for the non condensing.
@@crunch9876 He repeatedly refers to them as 80% and 90% respectively.
Ryan Roberts yea he was rounding.
He can not be expected to memorize all the stats for all water heater models.
Exact numbers are I believe.82 for the left model
.84 for the middle one
And .93 for the one on the right
There are also non recirculating that can reach .93.
With that said the brand you got is consider slightly better than Rheem.
How does a condensing version compare in pricing? I don' think I heard that? Would like to have heard about the mechanics of how a condensing works vs a non-condensing. On cold days in SWFL like now water flow really degrades! Lastly whats code say about distance to venting for a window that can open? Thanks!
I have saved $25 dollars a month on gas, so in 5 years I have paid for the tankless vs. tank, Plus they last 2x longer .It take a little time for water and you have to by pass the hot water anti scald off you shower valves, but I would take them off anyway.
Great explaination. my tank WH is close to replacement so this helps.
What are the venting needs for these. Can vent be stubbed to the exterior of the wall or are they required to go to the roof, and or ridge?
I really like the Takagi T-H3M units because they use a 1/2” gas line which makes them much easier for an in place swap out.
Hello, great video...can you do one on electrical ones?
Any updates to these recommendations for 2020?
We've got a cold stretch here in Boston. You here of any units freezing from the intake? May happen if not used much...
I have a hybrid unit so it's always warm.
You didn't discuss the hybrid.
AO Smith. I have an Eternal
I've heard of issues with reverse air flow in freezing temps. When the non-condensing units are not running, cold air enters possibly freezing the exchanger due to other appliances creating a vacuum on the building envelope.
This was SO helpful, thanks from California!! 🥰
Can you put an indoor tankless water heater in a crawl space in the northern colder climate?
I wasn't expecting to learn much but I did! Thanks Matt
Are there any brands or units that are not worth buying or that are going be a problem ? I don't mind the maintenance if it is like you have shown, we do have a problem with lime here so it will need cleaning out but once a year is not too bad. Thanks man
Great channel. I'm subscribed. Question, i live in Chicago. Natural Gas. Going tankless. Should i go with Rinnai or Navien? I would rather spend more money up front and have better quality. Just wondering what your experience has been as i don't know what company makes the best tankless. THANKS.
Has it changed that the non condensing units can now use pvc piping?
I have a very old gas tank water heater. I'm thinking about going solar so I thought it would be best to switch to an electric heater and I would like the tankless. What would be the best tankless water heater for use with solar?
Great video, thanks. Our house does not have gas to it, electric only. What are your views on Electric on demand heaters? Cheers.
The other thing too consider is that at full flame condensing will lose some of that efficiency. There are many technical reasons but let me try to put it in simple terms. Think of driving a car and your running at red line to get maximum power which means maximum gas flowing to the injectors. Generally to heat water that fast one is running at the red line. The main efficiency one gets with an on demand heater is that only runs when the tap is open which is why I like mine.
Thanks for this info. How can I get more information about a Rinnai tankless outside unit RUS 65eP with the "still fire" option? Thank You. Wayne from Ontario Canada
Hi Matt I'm looking into switching my old electric water heater tank to a tankless one should I stay with an electric one ot switch to a gas one?
I have a Rheem tankless water heater. How can I speed up the delivery of hot water to the showers. It seems to take about 3-:5 mins for the hot water to get to the outlet.
The problem not addressed in the tankless is some utilities you will need to get a larger gas meter at the house that incurs an addition monthly meter cost.
Hey Matt, what updated models do you recommend for 2022? I am looking for an indoor non-condensing nat gas one.
Excellent presentation.
Matt, do you think it's worth it to upgrade from a gas water tank to tankless for me in terms of money savings? I live in Vancouver BC. Our water temp and gas prices are pretty low .
Matt, I had hoped that you would mention whether those gas water heaters use electricity. I know that sounds contradictory, but many gas tankless water heaters still need 120v ac, to ignite the gas. For those of us who want to be able to have hot water when the power goes out (like after a hurricane), that doesn't satisfy our needs.
I have a 40 gallon gas water heater(tank). Thinking about going tank less but there is not electrical outlet in the closet where the tank is located. I think one has to have an outlet to plug in the thermostat but I'm not sure.
Hi Matt, I am building new home in the country side and thinking about your suggestion of the condensing model, but I do not have a county sewer, so I have a septic field. Do you think the high acidic would kill the micro organisms I need in the septic tank? ? ?
Thank you. Have you compared electric tankless heaters?
They are all garbage
Thanks Matt. That was very comprehensive.
I wasn't going to comment but feel like I need to help a few folks make this important decision. If you will notice the Energy Star sticker on the first tank, it says the annual cost is $551. My gas water heater has a sticker like that that says $167....I believe it is always more efficient to heat water or air with gas than electric. The Energy Star program ratings are based on average utility costs but they are based on the same averages, so they are generally relevant for comparison.Another aspect not mentioned and most people don't think about it is the fact that tankless do NOT provide instant hot water. In addition to waiting for the water in the line from the heater to the point of use going down the drain, you also have to wait until the tankless heater can adequately heat up the water in the small coil inside to begin to give you any hot water.I work for the largest LEED Certified home builder in the country. Our homes are very efficient and have an average HERS score of 65. Pretty low with no credits for a solar system...what do we do? We install typically a .93EF rated electric water heater and use a manifold system to get hot water to the point of use as efficiently as possible. If you want instant hot water? Add a recirculating system at the furthest point of use that has a timer to turn it on a few minutes before you want to use it, and turn it off when you go to work or go to sleep.Don't want to keep a tank of water heated all day or all night? Put it on a timer too, and have it turn on 15 minutes before you get up, or get home from work.In case you haven't noticed, water is becoming more scarce all the time and is getting more costly. Most of my clients have much higher water bills than their electric bills and all of that water is just going down the drain. What a waste....This may not be for everyone, but the "system" I just described works well for most people and even if you just add a timer to your existing water heater, you'll save a lot of electricity and water too.Electric tankless? Wow, don't let me get started. If your home normally has 200 amp service and you want electric tankless water heat, you will have to increase service to 300 or 320 amps, have larger wire, conduit, and a larger panel to accommodate the two or three double pole breakers to feed the monster.The only time my clients have ever run out of hot water is when they have a huge soaking tub that holds 50 gallons of water or so and they aren't using that every day. You could also get a supplemental small point of use tankless like the ones featured in the ads that pop up under this article, like the one from Home Depot for less than $140 and put it under a sink at or close to the point of use.I hope this helps you make a good decision and determine what is best for your situation. Good luck!
Great info and great video. After watching your video on tankless vs. tank, I ended up replacing our water heater in our current house with another tank. However, we're getting ready to build a new house and this video helped me get a batter understanding of how the condensing tankless operates. A well deserved like and subscribe from me. :)
in China!
I wish you'd gotten into the gas pipeline size and volume required for these units. I've seen that on other channels but bit and pieces here and there aren't giving me a clear picture of what I need to replace my gas 40 gal heater.
Its pretty simple look up your units btu ratings then your stove and whatever else there is a fomula but towns also make up different codes
do these only run on natural gas/propane? i live in an area where there is no gas hook ups and im not sure if i want to get propane tanks if i were to get something like this
My dad has an older unit in the attic. We are considering tankless . Does a tankless unit carry the same risk as a tank being in the attick?
May be new Tech but there are some condensing models I have found that have build in PH Neutralizers for the condensate so you can just let it drip outside or into a sink P-Trap
So is better the condensed tankless water???
Matt, what is your preferred Tankless water heater? I ended up purchasing a Rheem bc of this video.
For a new build, does it make sense to run cold water and gas to every bathroom + laundry + kitchen and have a localized small high efficiency condensing model? Do they even sell that small a size?
Can you do electric tankless water heater next?
Yes - please do electric and compare/contrast as to when electric might be favorable. I am looking at one for a small 1 bathroom addition.
WHAT HAPPENS DOING A BLACKOUT DO THEY STILL WORK ❓❓❓
Tankless, no, they do not work because they require electricity.
In a blackout, your fridge does not work. Think about it. Eat or shower?
Matt hits all the good points
he has a really good channel with a little higher lever of information than the norm
Higher efficiency units get you more energy credits as a builder this can save you bucks elsewhere in the build trying to find credits.
We have found this true in California.
I live in the other Cali, Washington State and the energy credit laws are stupid.