This really helps to provide some reference points as I make my way through Bordeaux Growth wines, particularly as I hunt for values relative to their price/quality tiers that you clearly laid out! Excited to hear that the ones that I am currently interested in are your "modern" 2nd/3rd "Growths" (Cos, Lalande, Ducru, and Pontet).
@@TrophyWineHunter, if you had between 160-200 USD to splurge on one bottle, how would you order the following wines (from most to least desirable regardless of cost OR from a QPR perspective): a) 2015 Las Cases b) 2018 Ducru Beaucaillou c) 2018 Cos d'Estournel d) 2016 Pichon Lalande e) 2016 Smith Haut Lafitte (actually, under 100 USD) f) 2019 Rauzan Segla (under 70 USD)
@@mickeylee2624 wow..tough question. Without putting a lot of thought into it, I would choose: 1. Las Cases 2015 - classic vintage, best wine of the list 2. Rauzan Segla - based on the fact it is $70 and the others are $160. 2nd growth Margaux from decent year. 3. 2016 Pichon - like the 16 a bit better than 18 and at same level, 2 more years of aging 4. 18 Ducru - I prefer Ducru to Cos but personal preference 5. 18 Cos 6. 16 SML - sorry don't see it in same class as the other wines. Even if $60 cheaper, not comparable. How about you? Cheers!
Thank you so much for the details,@@TrophyWineHunter!🙏🙏 Since I have never tried any of the above wineries, I don't have an opinion yet (only research on scores from publications, Cellar Tracker, and Vivino as well as their qualitative tasting notes and pricing on Wine-Searcher) and wanted to get your experience and expertise on the matter. 😁 I do have the 2nd wines for Pichon (2020), Cos (2019), and SHL (2019)--none of which I have opened yet... actually thinking of opening the Pichon first since I heard that it is the most modern of the above wineries, which aligns with palette preferences for me ad my dining companion. Speaking of which, stylistically, we have really enjoyed the Mondavi Winery style of Cab-dominant Reds and have just been getting into more serious wines of Bordeaux--of which, the 2015 Chateau Fombrauge (albeit, St. Emilion GCC rather than Left Bank) has been a favorite so far. While we currently favor our Reds to be full bodied, reasonably-fruited, with good acidity, and balanced oak, we do appreciate things like minerality that is typically considered more Old World--albeit, it has been a feature we enjoyed in our white wines (especially Rieslings) and Provence rosés. Considering the above, would you keep your list in the same order?🙏🙏
Great video, as usual. There are a million ways to reclassify these wines, and you made a valiant effort! The only one I would add is Les Forts de Latour, which I would put solidly in the middle of the 2nd Growth grouping. Looking forward to your other upcoming Bordeaux basics series. You could also consider covering high quality L Bank wines that did not make it into the 1855 classification for one reason or another. I'm thinking of Sociando Mallet, Bel Air Marquis D'Aligre, and the many cru bourgeois chateaus that produce wines well worth drinking, despite being unclassified. Keep up the great work!
noahcap: thank you for your continued support. I thought I would use the original methodology rather than go by opinion. The figures are empirical so you can only argue that I did not have sufficient data or I broke the categories at incorrect points. In my comments section, I did note I forgot Les Fort des Latour, mainly because it doesn't have a release price anymore. But I agree I would put it somewhere in the 2nd growth. Will do a bit of research on pricing and then place it somewhere in my ranking. I did consider Sociando Mallet and other cru bourgeois wine but they didn't make this list based on pricing. But discussing the miscellaneous wines might come at the end of the series. Still have a few more topics I want to cover. Cheers!
Roeland: Thank you for viewing my video and your comments. I will try to cover wines in my other videos but honestly too many wineries, especially in the $100 range to track all of them. Please like, subscribe and keep watching. Cheers!
Trophy, great video. Very helpful information to use when comparing wines to purchase. Since you are listing average prices, it should help us identify real bargains
gregzeman: please note these are prices in BC, Canada. In other places in the world, the prices may be much cheaper since our liquor tax in BC is quite high. Please like, subscribe and keep watching. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter Yes, I understand pricing is different in Canada than other places. I compared my local pricing using your 2022 reclassification order to help identify bargains.
Fantastic video. It's really interesting to see how these chateaux fare today. I concur with Segla...this will rise, and rise quickly. They are making fabulous wines. Do you plan on doing any videos on the second wines of the chateaux from 1855? There are some really great wines...like the ones you mentioned, plus wines from Montrose, Las Cases, and Calon Segur, etc. It would be a nice video for the future since I know you are going to the right bank soon. I love Bordeaux, so any videos on that will be great to see...cheers!
SC 34: thank you for your continued support. Yes, I am making a short video on 2nd wines in general I am going to do an "easier" topic in Bordeaux which is Sauternes before I tackle the harder topic of St. Emilion and Pomerol. I know my videos are pretty long but very hard to explain a region in depth in 20 minutes. I am hoping the reclassification of St. Emilion will come out before my video so I have something added to talk about. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter Sounds good! I believe the 2022 St. Em classification is due to come out in September. The classification is going through some trouble. As everyone knows the departure of every Grand Cru Classe A, except Pavie. I don't know if you heard, but this past week La Gaffeliere bowed out of the classification as well. It is rumored they may have been demoted, and instead of using the court system to appeal, they left altogether. It will definitely be interesting to see the new class. Looking forward to your next video...cheers!
@@sc3434 yes, it is a mess and moral of the story is don't mess with hundreds of years of history. That is why I like the 1855 classification...no subjectivity....based on pricing so as long as you get the stats for the pricing, it is a formula. Cheers!
fridayfish: wow..that would be tough one as that changes the entire meaning of the classification system and also has too much personal bias involved. Having said that I would still have the 5 first growths way ahead of the other Left Bank wines. I am not in to this whole Super Second argument. 2nd growth should be really good wines....but on a consistent basis (like over 20 year period), they still cannot compete with the 1st growths. If you pick and choose vintages, yes, for some vintages they are close but a clear separation in my mind. Cheers!
Steven: I am just reclassifying based on price data for the last few years in Vancouver. So you should be happy as that means D'Issan is actually very affordable, at least in BC. Cheers!
I did something similar just yesterday for the Trial of Paris results. It struck me as silly to use the average score of the judges but without any standard shared between them. None of the wines in the Trial were "sub-par" by any metric but the scores varied from three all the way to the high teens! To me a 3/20 would be undrinkable, even with my newbie palate! After re-doing based on a simple best-to-worst for each judge (since it's logically consistent that a higher grade is better than a lower grade for each judge, regardless of how they chose those grades) and Haut-Brion ended up being first with Stag's Leap falling to 2nd and then Montrose taking 3rd and Mouton falling to 4th. Always fun to go back and retest those old assumptions!
Steven: so fun and interesting! I might to a video on this in the future. I think they way the picked the wines skewed the results. So that is why I am always skeptical about these tests or blind tastings. Usually there is a motive and by choosing certain wines, you can get the result you want. Please like, subscribe and keep watching. Cheers!
Hi Tophy you are doing the 2022 classification 😀Would you be able to share the prices for the past 6 years you are using and also the average price for 6 years for each wine to reach this conclusion ? This is really fascinating to see how the prices have changed from 1855 till 2022 over one hundred years.
Willis: thank you for viewing my video. I am not sure how I can share it as it is a spreadsheet with like 80 wines but I am happy to give you my justification between one wine vs another wine. Yes, I think it is fascinating that even if you take a 6 year period, there is a lot of variation. What I learned from doing this exercise is you cannot judge a wine by the price today but need historical context. For example, 6 years ago, Les Carmes Haut Brion was priced at $65. This year, it is priced at $250. Going back 15 years, it was always priced below $65 so it would have never made my list without the price elevation in the last 4 years. So the elevation is status has only been in the last 4 years but the winery has a 150 year history. Amazing what can happen in such a short time period. Now that I have base prices, my reclassification should get more accurate and pick up trends better with each successive reclassification. The good thing is I use the same methodology as 1855 and there is no favoring one wine over another. It has nothing to do whether I like the wine or not and it is purely based on price trends. So it doesn't tell you if a wine is good or not but it will tell you where the wine is headed in terms of pricing. The 1855 classification was not a measure of quality but a way to measure the marketability of a wine so that is what I hope my reclassification will be used for....seeing the price trend of a wine. Cheers!
Nice video. Thank you. Did you overlook Latour’s second wine here - Les Forts de Latour? Also, maybe I missed it, but did Montrose appear in your revamped classification?
M M: yes, if you look at my comments, I noted I missed Les Forts de Latour so I might do a correction. It is because there is no longer any release price for Latour and Les Forts de Latour but I would put it somewhere in the 2nd growth category. Montrose appears as a 3rd growth in my reclassification. Cheers!
Donald: Fleur Cardinale...didn't cross my mind they would be upgraded? The whole St. Emilion system is now under attack but I might make a video on this as to my views as to what is happening. Actually a lot of self preservation going on. The one that will benefit the most is Figeac...Angelus pulled out because they don't want Figeac to enjoy the limelight they enjoyed. La Gaffeliere pulled out as they are not going to get elevated by Canon La Gaffeliere is. That is the problem with subjective tasting...someone'e feelings get hurt and the reclassification is pretty full scale....like there will be 20 changes instead of 1 or 2. Will be interesting to see what happens. Cheers!
This is a very interesting video. Two questions: have you compared your price statistics to Liv-Ex? That might be interesting, as I suppose it would show the world market and not just BC? Second, my wife and I are planning a trip to Bordeaux and St Emilion. Any recommendations on which chateaux to visit?
@@ModularLanding it may be August or Fall before I get to...I feel I overdid the Bordeaux series a bit so I am going to take a break from it for about a month and then resume the series. Cheers!
@@ModularLanding 1/ really too much work so easier for me to just do something based on B.C. prices, which I have each year; 2/ Bordeaux (city) is beautiful. I would go to Left Bank wineries, which are way more impressive in general than Right Bank (which look sometimes just like houses). On Left Bank if you can get into Margaux or Pichon Baron or Pichon Lalande or Ducru, these are very impressive estates. I think easier to get into is Smith Haut Lafitte which is also very nice. Cheers!
Matthias: honestly, I can't remember the last time I drank Carmes...must have been like 8 or 10 years back when it was just a wine we started the night with as a cru bougeous. Now it is way too expensive for me to buy to try so will wait for someone to allow me to taste with them. Will see in the next few years if it can maintain demand/pricing but it is in pretty good company with pricing equally Duhart Milon, Beychevelle, etc. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter Carmes is much higher than Beychevelle or Du-Mi. Carmes 2020 is 189€, Beychevelle and Du-Mi around 85€. Thank you for your videos!! 👍 Cheers
@@matthiasschairer6456 yes, I know...huge increase in price in the last 2 years but can you base a winery's reputation on 2 years? That is the dilemma in the current world...there is so much change in the last 10 years. So because Carmes has outpriced Beychevelle and Duhart for the last 2 years, do we discount the other 98 years of the last century? I agree if Carmes continues on this path for the next 10 or 20 years, it would move up but let's see what happens in 3 years with my next reclassification. Cheers!
Very interesting approach. If I would have this data I would look to deduce the value the 1855 classification brings to the current valuations. And in that way you could artificially deduce a price without the influence of the 1855 classification.
Thijs: thank you for watching my video and your comment. I think what you are talking about would be quite hard to calculate without introducing subjectivity. If you could give me an example (with fictional numbers), then I could understand how you would calculate what you are getting at. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter Thank you for your reply! Always so nice to see your involvement in the reply section. It is a bit technical I must admit, but it is what economists do all the time. As an example, if you would get the average values of the first and second growth wines. You could calculate the difference between these 2 groups. If you would assume that the average quality of both growths is the same (of course extremely subjective and certainly wrong, but it is just for a thought experiment). you could then deduct this price difference from all the individual first growth values and make them more comparable to the second growth. This is just an effort to exclude the status value of the 1855 classification out of the the comparison. Again, thanks for your reply, looking forward to your Falcone video.
@@thijspieterse5313 wow..that is complicated. I know what you are getting at now...you are trying to take out the fact they are first growths. I think it might work for pure statistics but as you pointed out, doesn't work for wines as wines get exponentially more expensive. So where a $1 wine might go up by $1, at $10 wine might go up by $3 and the $1000 wine will go up by $120. It might take $1 wine 1 years to go up $1 but it could take the $1000 one year to go up $120. I don't think it works as you are stripping out the most important factor (ie. is a growth wine). It is like comparing hockey players but saying we are not accounting for goals and then putting them on the same playing field. I think if you did your analysis, you would find the 1855 Classification System ranking plays a significant role in the pricing of the wine. It is the entire reason Lafite is the most famous wine in the world. You can see that in regions where there is no system. For instance, if you asked people what is the best Chilean wine out there, you would have so many answers. I think people would be hard pressed to name 5 top end Chilean wines. Just my views....or maybe I am just lazy but it was not tremendously fun to enter date for 6 years for 80 wineries and then do some analysis on the data. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter You got my drift completely! And it is of course very flawed. Aalysis like that is just my one of my interests, that might be why I think entering data in spreadsheets is fun if you can extract interesting information.. Cheers and happy drinking!
@@thijspieterse5313 I think you are just more analytical than me. I actually do enjoy the analysis of data...just not entering it. We can argue about what the data means but at least when I have some basis for my conclusion, I feel better than just giving opinions based on my personal feelings. Cheers!
William: I am sorry but if you go buy pricing (which is what the original 1855 classification system was based on), it is a 4th growth but perhaps rising. On my tasting it is comfortably 4th growth status maybe 3rd growth in best years. It is a media superstar but looks look at it with the benefit of hindsight in 10 years. Cheers!
@TrophyWineHunter On pricing alone, the 2022 future of Les Carmes Haut Brion is more expensive than Pichon (way more than us$200). The major critics rated it higher than some of the 1st growth. Personally, I don't think the quality matches its price (based on older vintages, I haven't tasted the new wines made by the new team)
Using 2022 future pricing, only 3 of 9 on your 3rd growth list are priced more than us$200, half of your 3rd growth list are cheaper than us$150. LC Haut-Brion would be the most expensive & the highest rated if sitting on your 3rd growth list. If using the average price of the last 6 yrs, LC Haut-Brion is more expensive than Pape Clement & SHL, close to Haut Bailly and Pontet.
Vintage: thank you for viewing my video and your comment. Sorry, but don't quite understand...are you saying vintage is more important than producer or vice versa? Gran Cru is better than Classe is most instances. In Bordeaux 2016 will generally be better than 2017 vintage. So I would agree Gran Cru 2016 should be better than 2017 Classe. But how about Gran Cru 2017 vs Classe 2016? Please like, subscribe and keep watching. Cheers!
This really helps to provide some reference points as I make my way through Bordeaux Growth wines, particularly as I hunt for values relative to their price/quality tiers that you clearly laid out!
Excited to hear that the ones that I am currently interested in are your "modern" 2nd/3rd "Growths" (Cos, Lalande, Ducru, and Pontet).
😃😃
@@TrophyWineHunter, if you had between 160-200 USD to splurge on one bottle, how would you order the following wines (from most to least desirable regardless of cost OR from a QPR perspective):
a) 2015 Las Cases
b) 2018 Ducru Beaucaillou
c) 2018 Cos d'Estournel
d) 2016 Pichon Lalande
e) 2016 Smith Haut Lafitte (actually, under 100 USD)
f) 2019 Rauzan Segla (under 70 USD)
@@mickeylee2624 wow..tough question. Without putting a lot of thought into it, I would choose:
1. Las Cases 2015 - classic vintage, best wine of the list
2. Rauzan Segla - based on the fact it is $70 and the others are $160. 2nd growth Margaux from decent year.
3. 2016 Pichon - like the 16 a bit better than 18 and at same level, 2 more years of aging
4. 18 Ducru - I prefer Ducru to Cos but personal preference
5. 18 Cos
6. 16 SML - sorry don't see it in same class as the other wines. Even if $60 cheaper, not comparable.
How about you? Cheers!
Thank you so much for the details,@@TrophyWineHunter!🙏🙏
Since I have never tried any of the above wineries, I don't have an opinion yet (only research on scores from publications, Cellar Tracker, and Vivino as well as their qualitative tasting notes and pricing on Wine-Searcher) and wanted to get your experience and expertise on the matter. 😁
I do have the 2nd wines for Pichon (2020), Cos (2019), and SHL (2019)--none of which I have opened yet... actually thinking of opening the Pichon first since I heard that it is the most modern of the above wineries, which aligns with palette preferences for me ad my dining companion.
Speaking of which, stylistically, we have really enjoyed the Mondavi Winery style of Cab-dominant Reds and have just been getting into more serious wines of Bordeaux--of which, the 2015 Chateau Fombrauge (albeit, St. Emilion GCC rather than Left Bank) has been a favorite so far. While we currently favor our Reds to be full bodied, reasonably-fruited, with good acidity, and balanced oak, we do appreciate things like minerality that is typically considered more Old World--albeit, it has been a feature we enjoyed in our white wines (especially Rieslings) and Provence rosés.
Considering the above, would you keep your list in the same order?🙏🙏
@@mickeylee2624 yup! Cheers!
Great video, as usual. There are a million ways to reclassify these wines, and you made a valiant effort! The only one I would add is Les Forts de Latour, which I would put solidly in the middle of the 2nd Growth grouping.
Looking forward to your other upcoming Bordeaux basics series. You could also consider covering high quality L Bank wines that did not make it into the 1855 classification for one reason or another. I'm thinking of Sociando Mallet, Bel Air Marquis D'Aligre, and the many cru bourgeois chateaus that produce wines well worth drinking, despite being unclassified. Keep up the great work!
noahcap: thank you for your continued support. I thought I would use the original methodology rather than go by opinion. The figures are empirical so you can only argue that I did not have sufficient data or I broke the categories at incorrect points.
In my comments section, I did note I forgot Les Fort des Latour, mainly because it doesn't have a release price anymore. But I agree I would put it somewhere in the 2nd growth. Will do a bit of research on pricing and then place it somewhere in my ranking.
I did consider Sociando Mallet and other cru bourgeois wine but they didn't make this list based on pricing. But discussing the miscellaneous wines might come at the end of the series. Still have a few more topics I want to cover. Cheers!
Very interesting. Maybe you can also review and give your opinion on non classified left bank like Gloria, chasse spleen and sociando. Regards.
Roeland: Thank you for viewing my video and your comments. I will try to cover wines in my other videos but honestly too many wineries, especially in the $100 range to track all of them. Please like, subscribe and keep watching. Cheers!
Trophy, great video. Very helpful information to use when comparing wines to purchase. Since you are listing average prices, it should help us identify real bargains
gregzeman: please note these are prices in BC, Canada. In other places in the world, the prices may be much cheaper since our liquor tax in BC is quite high. Please like, subscribe and keep watching. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter Yes, I understand pricing is different in Canada than other places. I compared my local pricing using your 2022 reclassification order to help identify bargains.
@@gregzeman5181 Cheers!
Fantastic video. It's really interesting to see how these chateaux fare today. I concur with Segla...this will rise, and rise quickly. They are making fabulous wines.
Do you plan on doing any videos on the second wines of the chateaux from 1855? There are some really great wines...like the ones you mentioned, plus wines from Montrose, Las Cases, and Calon Segur, etc. It would be a nice video for the future since I know you are going to the right bank soon.
I love Bordeaux, so any videos on that will be great to see...cheers!
SC 34: thank you for your continued support. Yes, I am making a short video on 2nd wines in general I am going to do an "easier" topic in Bordeaux which is Sauternes before I tackle the harder topic of St. Emilion and Pomerol. I know my videos are pretty long but very hard to explain a region in depth in 20 minutes. I am hoping the reclassification of St. Emilion will come out before my video so I have something added to talk about. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter Sounds good!
I believe the 2022 St. Em classification is due to come out in September. The classification is going through some trouble. As everyone knows the departure of every Grand Cru Classe A, except Pavie. I don't know if you heard, but this past week La Gaffeliere bowed out of the classification as well. It is rumored they may have been demoted, and instead of using the court system to appeal, they left altogether. It will definitely be interesting to see the new class.
Looking forward to your next video...cheers!
@@sc3434 yes, it is a mess and moral of the story is don't mess with hundreds of years of history. That is why I like the 1855 classification...no subjectivity....based on pricing so as long as you get the stats for the pricing, it is a formula. Cheers!
Very interesting point of view.
thank you for your continued support!
Would love to hear how you would reclassify based on quality
fridayfish: wow..that would be tough one as that changes the entire meaning of the classification system and also has too much personal bias involved. Having said that I would still have the 5 first growths way ahead of the other Left Bank wines. I am not in to this whole Super Second argument. 2nd growth should be really good wines....but on a consistent basis (like over 20 year period), they still cannot compete with the 1st growths. If you pick and choose vintages, yes, for some vintages they are close but a clear separation in my mind. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter appreciate the answer!
@@FridayFishFacts 😀
d'Issan falling from 3rd to 5th!? My heart... It's been my favorite wine I've tried so far to see if fall saddens me.
Steven: I am just reclassifying based on price data for the last few years in Vancouver. So you should be happy as that means D'Issan is actually very affordable, at least in BC. Cheers!
I did something similar just yesterday for the Trial of Paris results. It struck me as silly to use the average score of the judges but without any standard shared between them. None of the wines in the Trial were "sub-par" by any metric but the scores varied from three all the way to the high teens! To me a 3/20 would be undrinkable, even with my newbie palate! After re-doing based on a simple best-to-worst for each judge (since it's logically consistent that a higher grade is better than a lower grade for each judge, regardless of how they chose those grades) and Haut-Brion ended up being first with Stag's Leap falling to 2nd and then Montrose taking 3rd and Mouton falling to 4th. Always fun to go back and retest those old assumptions!
Steven: so fun and interesting! I might to a video on this in the future. I think they way the picked the wines skewed the results. So that is why I am always skeptical about these tests or blind tastings. Usually there is a motive and by choosing certain wines, you can get the result you want. Please like, subscribe and keep watching. Cheers!
the best viewpoint is obviously the prices of the makers themselves. what are the prices on the wine estates themselves etc.
Yes agreed! Cheers!
Hi Tophy you are doing the 2022 classification 😀Would you be able to share the prices for the past 6 years you are using and also the average price for 6 years for each wine to reach this conclusion ? This is really fascinating to see how the prices have changed from 1855 till 2022 over one hundred years.
Willis: thank you for viewing my video. I am not sure how I can share it as it is a spreadsheet with like 80 wines but I am happy to give you my justification between one wine vs another wine.
Yes, I think it is fascinating that even if you take a 6 year period, there is a lot of variation. What I learned from doing this exercise is you cannot judge a wine by the price today but need historical context. For example, 6 years ago, Les Carmes Haut Brion was priced at $65. This year, it is priced at $250. Going back 15 years, it was always priced below $65 so it would have never made my list without the price elevation in the last 4 years. So the elevation is status has only been in the last 4 years but the winery has a 150 year history. Amazing what can happen in such a short time period.
Now that I have base prices, my reclassification should get more accurate and pick up trends better with each successive reclassification. The good thing is I use the same methodology as 1855 and there is no favoring one wine over another. It has nothing to do whether I like the wine or not and it is purely based on price trends. So it doesn't tell you if a wine is good or not but it will tell you where the wine is headed in terms of pricing. The 1855 classification was not a measure of quality but a way to measure the marketability of a wine so that is what I hope my reclassification will be used for....seeing the price trend of a wine. Cheers!
Nice video. Thank you. Did you overlook Latour’s second wine here - Les Forts de Latour? Also, maybe I missed it, but did Montrose appear in your revamped classification?
M M: yes, if you look at my comments, I noted I missed Les Forts de Latour so I might do a correction. It is because there is no longer any release price for Latour and Les Forts de Latour but I would put it somewhere in the 2nd growth category. Montrose appears as a 3rd growth in my reclassification. Cheers!
picking up some Fleur Cardinale this week before they get upgraded
Donald: Fleur Cardinale...didn't cross my mind they would be upgraded?
The whole St. Emilion system is now under attack but I might make a video on this as to my views as to what is happening. Actually a lot of self preservation going on. The one that will benefit the most is Figeac...Angelus pulled out because they don't want Figeac to enjoy the limelight they enjoyed. La Gaffeliere pulled out as they are not going to get elevated by Canon La Gaffeliere is. That is the problem with subjective tasting...someone'e feelings get hurt and the reclassification is pretty full scale....like there will be 20 changes instead of 1 or 2. Will be interesting to see what happens. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter yes please do a video giving your thoughts on the St Emilion reclassification. It’s pretty interesting!
This is a very interesting video. Two questions: have you compared your price statistics to Liv-Ex? That might be interesting, as I suppose it would show the world market and not just BC? Second, my wife and I are planning a trip to Bordeaux and St Emilion. Any recommendations on which chateaux to visit?
@@ModularLanding it may be August or Fall before I get to...I feel I overdid the Bordeaux series a bit so I am going to take a break from it for about a month and then resume the series. Cheers!
@@ModularLanding 1/ really too much work so easier for me to just do something based on B.C. prices, which I have each year; 2/ Bordeaux (city) is beautiful. I would go to Left Bank wineries, which are way more impressive in general than Right Bank (which look sometimes just like houses). On Left Bank if you can get into Margaux or Pichon Baron or Pichon Lalande or Ducru, these are very impressive estates. I think easier to get into is Smith Haut Lafitte which is also very nice. Cheers!
What do you think about Carmes Haut Brion? The last years very very good and high priced
Matthias: honestly, I can't remember the last time I drank Carmes...must have been like 8 or 10 years back when it was just a wine we started the night with as a cru bougeous. Now it is way too expensive for me to buy to try so will wait for someone to allow me to taste with them. Will see in the next few years if it can maintain demand/pricing but it is in pretty good company with pricing equally Duhart Milon, Beychevelle, etc. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter Carmes is much higher than Beychevelle or Du-Mi. Carmes 2020 is 189€, Beychevelle and Du-Mi around 85€. Thank you for your videos!! 👍 Cheers
@@matthiasschairer6456 yes, I know...huge increase in price in the last 2 years but can you base a winery's reputation on 2 years? That is the dilemma in the current world...there is so much change in the last 10 years. So because Carmes has outpriced Beychevelle and Duhart for the last 2 years, do we discount the other 98 years of the last century? I agree if Carmes continues on this path for the next 10 or 20 years, it would move up but let's see what happens in 3 years with my next reclassification. Cheers!
Very interesting approach. If I would have this data I would look to deduce the value the 1855 classification brings to the current valuations. And in that way you could artificially deduce a price without the influence of the 1855 classification.
Thijs: thank you for watching my video and your comment. I think what you are talking about would be quite hard to calculate without introducing subjectivity. If you could give me an example (with fictional numbers), then I could understand how you would calculate what you are getting at. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter Thank you for your reply! Always so nice to see your involvement in the reply section. It is a bit technical I must admit, but it is what economists do all the time. As an example, if you would get the average values of the first and second growth wines. You could calculate the difference between these 2 groups. If you would assume that the average quality of both growths is the same (of course extremely subjective and certainly wrong, but it is just for a thought experiment). you could then deduct this price difference from all the individual first growth values and make them more comparable to the second growth. This is just an effort to exclude the status value of the 1855 classification out of the the comparison. Again, thanks for your reply, looking forward to your Falcone video.
@@thijspieterse5313 wow..that is complicated. I know what you are getting at now...you are trying to take out the fact they are first growths. I think it might work for pure statistics but as you pointed out, doesn't work for wines as wines get exponentially more expensive. So where a $1 wine might go up by $1, at $10 wine might go up by $3 and the $1000 wine will go up by $120. It might take $1 wine 1 years to go up $1 but it could take the $1000 one year to go up $120. I don't think it works as you are stripping out the most important factor (ie. is a growth wine). It is like comparing hockey players but saying we are not accounting for goals and then putting them on the same playing field.
I think if you did your analysis, you would find the 1855 Classification System ranking plays a significant role in the pricing of the wine. It is the entire reason Lafite is the most famous wine in the world. You can see that in regions where there is no system. For instance, if you asked people what is the best Chilean wine out there, you would have so many answers. I think people would be hard pressed to name 5 top end Chilean wines.
Just my views....or maybe I am just lazy but it was not tremendously fun to enter date for 6 years for 80 wineries and then do some analysis on the data. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter You got my drift completely! And it is of course very flawed. Aalysis like that is just my one of my interests, that might be why I think entering data in spreadsheets is fun if you can extract interesting information.. Cheers and happy drinking!
@@thijspieterse5313 I think you are just more analytical than me. I actually do enjoy the analysis of data...just not entering it. We can argue about what the data means but at least when I have some basis for my conclusion, I feel better than just giving opinions based on my personal feelings. Cheers!
Les Carmes Haut-Brion price has been elevated to between 2nd & 3rd growth now, backed by reviews.
William: I am sorry but if you go buy pricing (which is what the original 1855 classification system was based on), it is a 4th growth but perhaps rising. On my tasting it is comfortably 4th growth status maybe 3rd growth in best years. It is a media superstar but looks look at it with the benefit of hindsight in 10 years. Cheers!
@TrophyWineHunter On pricing alone, the 2022 future of Les Carmes Haut Brion is more expensive than Pichon (way more than us$200). The major critics rated it higher than some of the 1st growth. Personally, I don't think the quality matches its price (based on older vintages, I haven't tasted the new wines made by the new team)
Using 2022 future pricing, only 3 of 9 on your 3rd growth list are priced more than us$200, half of your 3rd growth list are cheaper than us$150. LC Haut-Brion would be the most expensive & the highest rated if sitting on your 3rd growth list. If using the average price of the last 6 yrs, LC Haut-Brion is more expensive than Pape Clement & SHL, close to Haut Bailly and Pontet.
Vintage > producer...
A 2016 Gran Cru will blow a 2017 Classe out of the water.
Vintage: thank you for viewing my video and your comment. Sorry, but don't quite understand...are you saying vintage is more important than producer or vice versa? Gran Cru is better than Classe is most instances. In Bordeaux 2016 will generally be better than 2017 vintage. So I would agree Gran Cru 2016 should be better than 2017 Classe. But how about Gran Cru 2017 vs Classe 2016? Please like, subscribe and keep watching. Cheers!