I love your videos and have been exploring growth Bordeaux over the past few months and it’s been fantastic. In the past I only drank $20-40 Bordeaux due to budget limitations. I do agree that drinking classified Bordeaux is different from Cru Bourgeois or Bordeaux superieur etc. I disagree with those who think you are coming off as pretentious. The channel is called Trophy Wine Hunter-it’s fine to focus on fine wines and more expensive wines. You have your opinions and what you want the channel to be, and you shouldn’t be afraid to voice your opinions, even if others disagree. There are tons of YT videos on lower end wines. Your videos are hugely informative and I’ve learned so much, especially as far fewer people on YT focus on the higher priced wines in such detail. Also, people should know that you can often get amazing some great 3rd to 5th growth Bordeaux for $50-70 online, especially if you order pre-arrival. 2018 Malescot St Exupery for example is at this price, amazingly. Hope you keep it up.
Modular Landing: thank you for viewing my videos and your kind words. I am hoping that by sharing my views on some Trophy Wines, I "experiment" on behalf of my viewers so that when you do buy a Trophy Wine, you know what to expect. I am glad you get what I am trying to do here. I am trying to create a channel that is not covered by any other UA-camr. I watch a lot of other wine UA-camrs and learn from all of them. But I think it is better for everyone's YT channel to be different and give more variety to viewers. Thank you for your encouragement and I agree...you can find affordable Growth wines. Just my opinion but I think you should start with Growth wines to give you a base (at least understand the 1855 classification system). This series is made because I am primarily a Bordeaux drinker and I run into a lot of people who don't understand why I like Bordeaux. I think it is in the approach and once we go through this series (which may take a few years), viewers will have a pretty comprehensive understanding of Bordeaux, at least how I see it. Please continue to support my channel by liking, subscribing and watching. Cheers!
Adrian: thanks so much for viewing my video and your kind words. Please also see the rests of my Bordeaux Wine Basics series. Please like, subscribe and keep watching. Cheers!
Wai Ken Wong: I have to be honest...I started with books but the problem is that things change so fast that a lot of knowledge in books is historical. I think you are better off getting knowledge from the internet from trusted sites and the winery itself. It terms of books, I love Wine and War: The French, the Nazis, and the Battle for France's Greatest Treasure. It is such an interesting book of how the French has to hide their wines from the Nazis. Complicated because some senior Nazis were wine connoisseurs so you could not pass off bad wines on them. Cheers!
Lisa: hopefully I am telling you stuff that is useful, accurate and that will help you on your exam. Some of my ideas and views my not be in line with common beliefs. Cheers!
Thanks for the presentation. Do you have any insights on the new Crus Bourgeois classification? Have Charmail and Lillian Ladouys as my cellar defenders from this class. Currently decanting a 2015 Chateau St. Pierre at the moment.
Amadeus: thanks for viewing my channel and your question. I will probably talk about this in another video but in Bordeaux, my personal opinion is that there are too many Cru Bourgeois level wines for it to mean anything significant. There are 3 levels of Cru Bougeois wines with over 200 wineries. In my opinion, that is too many to mean anything as there is so much variation among the various wineries. Everyone has their personal favourites. Mine are D'Agassac and Malescasse. Look for my upcoming review of Chateau de Villiambis...good winery and I love the story. See my review on this channel of Lilian Ladouys 2017...some people swear by this wine but not personally my favourite Cru Bourgeois. You are going to have to air the 2015 St. Pierre for quite awhile but enjoy it! Cheers!
Chris: yes, you are very correct. Wine knowledge is a business/life skill now equivalent to golf. I have been invited to many occasions because of my perceived wine knowledge. But the key is to have the right approach as if you come off as pretentious, then no one wants to drink with you. You have to share knowledge with other without coming across as condescending. That approach has yielded many, many great friendships and that opportunity to drink spectacular wines. Cheers!
@@chrisginoc haven't tried D'Issan for many years but probably time as I do like the increasing quality of growth Bordeaux wines. Depends on the price you can get it at. Cheers!
Definitely appreciate these kinds of videos unraveling and truly understanding the 1855 classification and what it means today is complicated and not complicated at the same time. It’s outdated which is why you have growth wines that aren’t in the 1855 classification as you mentioned in Pomeral. I think you explained everything very well always a good perspective!
Thanks Wyatt for your support. I know Bordeaux is not as popular or accessible as US or Italian wine but if people like these videos, I will try to explain it in a very simple, consumer friendly way. That is why with Bordeaux, I suggest actually starting with the Growth wines and then moving to Right Bank and some of the minor regions. Once you start tasting Growth wines, you will start to understand the levels of wines. It then become much easier to assess other Bordeaux wines as you have an idea of the quality standards. Most growth wines are still really good wines. You may disagree with their ranking but by and large, they are good place to start. I find too many people spend too much time with the lesser regions in Bordeaux and never really "get" why Bordeaux is priced so high. When drinking Bordeaux, there is lot more emphasis on texture and mouth feel rather than flavors and it is a hard concept to explain without drinking some Growth wines. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter very well explained hope this series continues always good knowledge and conversation ! While I do disagree with the ranking I think the Top growths are still marked distinctly for their quality and it is deserved having that benchmark is essential for understanding the region and the unique style that is the 1855 classified growths of Bordeaux couldn’t agree more !
@@wyattalexander4041 I think you will enjoy some of my unique views on the how to use the classification system to decide which wines to buy. I think I have drank through all of them except about 5 very obscure ones and just knowing a few basic concepts about the classification system can make anyone an expert about Growth wines very quickly. As a sneak peak, my view is that actual level (whether it is a 4 or 5th growth) is not as important as it is relative level (high or low on the system). This is because over decades, wineries will have ups and downs but because of factors I will explain, the system has built in stability so it is almost impossible for example, for a 5th growth wine to have the same quality level as a 2nd growth wine on a consistent basis. It is also very hard for Cru Bourgeous wines to match the quality of even most 5th growth wines (due to factors I will explain) and that is why the classification system is so important to understand...it has a built in mechanism that doesn't allow for much variation. There are exceptions to these general rules but only a few. However, there have been a number of significant factors over the last decade or so that the system was not built to anticipate, which has created huge variation in prices and quality over the last decade. All this is fascinating to me but I think it is a very exciting time to drink Bordeaux as many long held ideas are being challenged with our modern environment.
@@TrophyWineHunter Exactly the environment and the innovations to wineries has really changed a lot Ponet Canet 5th growth comes to mind as a very good example with innovations and now commanding quite the pretty penny. The change in the market during 2010 and ratings truly showed this although much more complicated that this surface level perspective I very much look forward to your thoughts on what you described above great food for thought always love another’s perspective on this topic !
@@wyattalexander4041 Yes, Pontet Canet is making great wines but the huge increase in quality has only come in the last decade or so. I think it is important to look at things historically and if you look at the last 150 years (when the rating system first started), the rating system still works to some extent (Pontet Canet, all the way up to 1990s was not making the quality they are today). I have been fortunate to drink back vintages of some wines back to the 1920s and it would surprise you how some great wines today were very mediocre only a few decades ago...Iikewise there are some wines today that are very low on most people's to drink list that produced stunners only a few decades ago. So I think we have talk a lot about trends and which wineries are on the upswing. Understanding the system will allow you to identify relative value and know what is bs. Pontet Canet is great example of the built in mechanism...no matter how good their quality, there is a ceiling to their price in the short term. That is, they are not getting the credit they deserve based on the quality of, let's say, the last 5 years. If you didn't have this classification system or they were in Napa, they would have much more revenue to do more things, build more wineries, put more money into innovation. Now they have to maintain their quality for decades before it will be noticed by the general wine consuming public. So for better or worse, you don't get wild swings in pricing over a short term period pf 1 or 2 years. Because they can't generate huge increases in revenues, that inhibits their ability to continue or make even better wines. Sorry for the long winded answer but I love talking wine with you!
Cory Z: sorry to disappoint but not reviewing...just a teaser to get people to view my video! I am talking about Bordeaux basics and see if viewers like this type of video..Cheers!
@@dukesun4062 yes...I think it is a decent value wine and depending on the price in your jurisdiction, it can be a great buy. But not for long term storage and as I have said in my other videos, you don't learn a lot about why people spend so much on Bordeaux drinking these wines. Please like, subscribe and keep watching. Cheers!
If the vintage is right, than even the cheaper Bordeaux wines can be spectaculair. I am living in Europe, it’s true that the expensive wines can give something that cheaper wines don’t, complexity and real terroir, but in my opinion the new world is just to jammy, to smooth, to easy rider for me, but thats my opinion. You can drink fantastic Bordeaux in the range of €10-€30 in vintages like the latest 2015,2016,2018,2019… I think that those wines are more appreciated by European drinkers than American wine lovers. When you are used to big, bold, smooth jammy fruit bombs, Bordeaux can be a little strange, but i almost never drink new world, unless i am in a restaurant en i just want to drink one or two glasses.. i think that value Bordeaux can be the best, the right balance between ripe fruit and fressnes.
Robin: I also prefer Bordeaux in most cases to Napa or New World but I think it is a taste preference and what you are used to. If you started out drinking New World, you probably prefer it. I started out drinking Bordeaux so it is no surprise it is my favorite still. Please like and keep watching! Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter But i don’t think that the value of top end Bordeaux wines are right. The reason that they are that expensive is because of al the theatre, and like you said in a video, the classification wasn’t really about quality. So what is the price to quality ratio with top end Bordeaux wines? Ofcourse they have the big money, but the winemaking proces isn’t from a different planet. I think that the value of top end Bordeaux in terms of drinking quality doesn’t justifies the price. The supply and demand of those wines determine the price to a large extend. Why would you say that drinking Bordeaux wine is about drinking the expensive top end? You aren’t gonna get the drinking value of a €600 to €1000 per bottle, that’s all about theatre and drama. Drinking the most expensive wines because you think that is the fun of drinking Bordeaux has not much to do with the wine quality in the glass. If you want to drink good value (price quality wine) the first thing you should do, is forget about al the theatre en taste the wines for yourself.. There are so many wine producers in Bordeaux that make wine with love. You pay €800 for a bottle of Latour because on the label it says 1. Latour and 2. Premier cru (1st growth) now that is terrible for the true value of the wine in your glass. I don’t judge what you said, ofcourse wine drinking is also about fun, but i don’t think that you should drink top end to get value, instead, i think value is disturbed in ratio to the price with top end.
@@rb1084 Thank you for viewing my video and your comment. You make some great points so let me try address some of them. You are correct that the price for value ratio for high end Bordeaux (or any Trophy Wine) is not great. But please view my video on Assessing Trophy Wines and their desirability for my explanation to this and why still people buy Trophy Wines. I don't think I said drinking Bordeaux is about drinking the top expensive wine. I think I said, if you want to learn about Bordeaux, you should start with growth wines because 1/ it is systematic and that is a starting point for learning about pricing and 2/the 1855 Classification System is what everyone talks about when you talk about Bordeaux wines and if you don't know what it is or understand how it works, you are missing the major topic surrounding Bordeaux wines; 3/ if you are happy drinking value Bordeaux and have no time for the expensive wines or the Classification System, that is great but 4/ when drinking value Bordeaux, they may be great wines and have great QPR but they may not be representative of top end Bordeaux wines (which are grown in different regions, use different blends and have different climate). I did this series of videos as I feel so many people are confused about why Bordeaux prices are so high and they don't "get" Bordeaux. So everyone thinks Bordeaux (or Burgundy) for that matter is overpriced...why year after year do the top end wines continue to escalate in price while the "value" wines remain value wines. Is it that all investors, brokers, retailers and those in the wine trade (who probably drink more wines than most consumers) are all just scamming everyone and don't know what they are tasting or are most consumers not getting it? That is what I am trying to explain to most consumers. I have a different approach than you. You can drink all the value Bordeaux you like but in my opinion, that will never assist you in appreciating high end wines like Latour. My suggestion is start with the Growth Wines and understand/taste the system. Not all Growth Wines are terribly expensive. You don't even have to agree with the Growth System but you do need to understand it (and most people don't even understand the basic premise that it is not and never has been a ranking of quality) After you have a good grasp of Growth Wines (which I believe are the best representations of each region), then you can go to value and you appreciate the value of those wines but you can also taste the difference. That will give you some appreciation of the price difference but agree, when you are drinking high end Bordeaux, your primary consideration is not value. Again, I don't judge people on their wine choices. As long as you are happy, then great. But I find a lot of people buying high end Bordeaux or high end other wines are disappointed. They pop and open and want the wine to impress them. It is almost like they treat a wine like an entertainer...like I am going to a concert...I paid money...now give me a good show. That, in my opinion, is not how wine works. At the top end, it is about the history and the consistency of quality. The nuances of how they produce wine, the quality controls they put in place to make sure you are getting the most out of the grape. It its about letting the wine speak to you and for the wine to take the lead....not for you to demand from the wine that I want you drink well after 1 hour aeration, etc. For Latour now, it is about not releasing the wine until they think it is starting to reach its drinking window. It is about drinking a wine over several (like 6) hours and even the next day or multiple bottles over the years and seeing how the wine evolves. It is about following the trajectory of wine from when it is very young (en primeur), to youth, to just coming to age, to hitting its plateau, to trying to hang on to its glory, to elegant old age. I appreciate many people don't have the resources to follow a wine like Latour through this process but just because it is exceedingly expensive to be able to do this doesn't mean it doesn't happen. For those fortunate enough to experience, it is like a magnet to pull you back to these wines. Sorry for the long winded message but just want to explain how I see things. Again, enjoy the discussion and not saying my view is the right view but I hope I assist people understand the mindset in enjoying high end Bordeaux. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter Thank you for your detailed answer, I understand you better now. I don't think our opinions really differ much and I agree that people approach expensive Bordeaux wine in the wrong way. I think I misunderstood, learning and drinking are indeed different things. Thank you, Gr Robin
@@rb1084 thank you for keeping an open mind. That is what I love about this channel..my viewers are very polite but really thoughtful. I love engaging in discussions about wine and sharing views. I actually learn a lot from my viewers and comments help me to keep on track and make sure my points are being understood clearly. Cheers!
lioninthenight: thank you for viewing my video but I am not sure I understand the question. Do you mean what is the lowest price or lowest level of wine I would consider high-end Bordeaux? I am not sure exactly if I have a price point as prices here are different than around the world but they way I have classified my reviews is that value wines are wines I can purchase for under CDN$50. Premium wines are wine up to around $500. Trophy wines are wines that are very hard to purchase at retail, very exclusive or very expensive (over $500). Not sure if that answers your question but my idea of what is a high end Bordeaux might different than other people. I don't think I have really defined in my mind what is a high end Bordeaux....did I use that phrase in the video somewhere? Please like, subscribe and keep watching. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter Yeah, I purchase wine at a wine shop here in Los Angeles. I'm just trying to ascertain what the price range for high-end Bordeaux wines is. If 50$ and below are considered value wines, then would high-end wines be 50$ on up? I'm not talking about $500 wines. In my mind, high-end wines that I'm willing to purchase are between $50 and $200. I want to drink quality Bordeaux. $500 would be out of my price range unless I did it for a special occasion. Thanks!
@@Lioninthenight I think price here in BC, Canada are much higher than LA so I would say between your price range, you are getting a pretty nice wine. But note that the "nicer" the Bordeaux you get, the longer you have wait for it to get to its drinking window. Just check the various reviews on my channel but for a value Bordeaux like Chateau Marjosse, you could drink now or within the next 5 years. But let's say for a wine like Brane Cantenac or Leoville Barton, you are looking at probably waiting 8-10 years before it hits it drinking window. Perhaps also view my video on the difference between Napa and Bordeaux wines. I wouldn't worry too much about price. I would just starting drinking at a certain price level and if you find value in that range, then keep going. With Bordeaux, my suggestion is to start with Left Bank Classified Growths as that gives you some type of structure to follow. I think most 3-5th would fit into your price range. Then move to Right Bank and then finally value Bordeaux. I just think if you start with value Bordeaux, you will never see the value of high end Bordeaux as it is 2-10x more in price. But in my opinion, there is distinct difference between value Bordeaux and some of the higher end Bordeaux as value Bordeaux, although good, does not provide you with as much distinctness of what make a wine a Bordeaux wine. Hope this helps. Cheers!
Brendan: thanks for viewing my video and your comment. I know this may be upsetting to some but in my opinion, the way to understand to Bordeaux is to understand (not drink) from the top. That is why I am starting with the 1855 Classification System and Right/Left Bank wines. If you don't understand the system and how it is used, you will never understand why Bordeaux wines are so expensive. I find many people are disillusioned with Bordeaux and in my opinion, that is because they start their knowledge from the bottom. My point is you learn very little about Bordeaux by understanding value Bordeaux, many of which are great wines but are not distinctly Bordeaux and have little resemblance to the top wines. What I am trying to do is to give viewers a lay of the land with Bordeaux wines. It is still today the region that commands the most demand at auctions and which drives wine prices. So if you are aspiring to drink higher end wines, most of them are Bordeaux, although things are changing. A lot of my viewers are experienced drinkers who do have experience with these wines but for those who don't, just bear with me. I have done videos on 1st, 2nd and 3rd growth wines. So if you watch the entire series, I am now talking about wines in the $100-200 range, which is still a lot. But eventually I will get down to the value regions and then viewers will have a complete picture of the region and how everything fits in. My point is Bordeaux, like Napa, like Burgundy are not the best regions for quality to price ratio. Not that you can't find value....just that it is very tough and it will not really further your education into higher end wines. I tried to make the point that if you are only interested in drinking value wines, then really you can ignore this series of videos. I try to also do some videos on value wines and also have a Starting from the Bottom series for beginners. Hope this kinda makes sense and hope you keep watching. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter if you don't understand the characteristics of a basic bordeaux, how are you going to understand what sets them apart for higher end bordeaux. Need to have a foundation. Understanding the classification system is one thing. But to say only 1st through 5th growth bordeaux is the only wine worth drinking is a little far fetched. Bordeaux is one of the greatest wine making regions in the world. Lots of fabulous wines at all price points. Judge the wine in the bottle, not based on a label.
@@brendan4901 love the discussion! Not saying you are incorrect...just saying this is how I see things as my belief is that you can do this with some regions (ie start with basic wines and move up) where it doesn't really work well with Bordeaux and Burgundy. If I gave you the impression that only the growth wines are the only Bordeaux wines worth drinking, that is not correct. But if you want to drink Trophy wines in Bordeaux, then you have to start with understanding at the top (in my opinion). I thought I said in the video that value wines are great and nothing wrong with not wanting to drinking trophy wines but this series was if you wanted to get into Trophy wines. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough. I see so many people very confused about why Bordeaux is so expensive. So they actually end up missing some great wines at relatively reasonable prices. I do not agree with your statement that you have to understand basic bordeaux before you understand higher end bordeaux and that is my point. Basic bordeaux and higher end bordeaux drink differently. Most basic bordeaux drink well initially and then drop off over time. Most high end Bordeaux drink fleshy for about 9 months, then close down for between 5-20 years. As an example, my upcoming tasting of the 2016 Langoa Barton was virtually undrinkable when it came out of the bottle but is probably one of the best wines they have ever produced. Still tight after 5-6 hours of aeration and won't be ready for another 10 years. Generally value Bordeaux have different terroir and are the first to be hit by frost. Here is my perspective....if you start learning from the top and you understand all the innovations, resources the top wineries have, you start to understand why certain wineries just cannot consistently make wines at 1st or 2nd growth levels. Then you actually start drinking down the ladder to see at what price point you get value. If you go the other way (ie drink from basic Bordeaux), you will never recognize the value of a high end Bordeaux and will come to the conclusion that high end Bordeaux is overpriced and you will never develop an appreciation for trophy Bordeaux wines. Maybe not a bad thing for your wallet but you will never get out of value proposition mindset. Then you will never understand the mindset of those high end buyers and why you would pay $1000 for a bottle of wine. However, I do agree with your statement that there are great wines at every price point. Unfortunately, if you only judge the wine by what is the bottle and not the label, you will never understand trophy wines as we have to admit part of the appeal is the label, the history, the status and what it represents. Not sure if this makes sense to you but again, I love the discussion. My views are not right for everyone but I am just trying to give me take on why people don't really get Bordeaux. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter appreciated the discussion. Perhaps I will have to give one a try. Been looking at a 2015 chateau lagrange. Within my price range. Perhaps will pull the trigger
@@brendan4901 Look for at my 3rd growth videos...most are in the $100-200 Canadian range. Lagrange is OK but there are better ones, in my opinion. Having said that, there was a time I really like Lagrange myself for the price. The other one that always seems to be not that expensive is Lafon Rochet. Cheers!
Oof. Where to start. This has 100% turned me against your channel. I have had the pleasure and honor to meet some great sommeliers and Masters of Wine. None are as pretentious as you come off as in this video. This is such a shame really, but that is my fault. I guess now I know why you call yourself the "The Trophy Wine Hunter". Drink you what you like, not what others say you should like. I wish you the best, thanks for the great videos up until now.
JM: thank you for your viewing my channel and your comment. Sorry I turned you off. If I sounded pretentious I probably was but I didn't intend to be. Quite upsetting as I believe you are a long time viewer and I value your comments. I would love to hear what bothered you and I am happy to acknowledge when I have (or am) pretentious or "uppedity" or to clarify my statements. But based on my experience, with Bordeaux you have to start with the growth wines. So many people drink value Bordeaux and they don't get a sense or understanding of Bordeaux. The other point I will make, in upcoming videos is that is there are many growth wines that are priced at the same level at Cru Bourgeous. So many people are turned off by Bordeaux and my point is if I can make it simple for people to understand, it actually makes it more accessible. Having said that, you put it quite correctly...life is short and wine is meant to bring you pleasure....if my videos are going to get you upset, there are plenty of other great people on UA-cam who give great information about wine. I just think I give a pretty unique perspective as I am consumer and do have a lot of drinking experience, particularly with Bordeaux. Cheers!
I love your videos and have been exploring growth Bordeaux over the past few months and it’s been fantastic. In the past I only drank $20-40 Bordeaux (and a few in the 60-80 but not much) due to budget limitations. I do agree that drinking classified Bordeaux is different from Cru Bourgeois or Bordeaux superieur etc. It has been eye opening. I disagree with those who think you are coming off as pretentious. The channel is called Trophy Wine Hunter-it’s fine to focus on fine wines and more expensive wines. You have your opinions and what you want the channel to be, and you shouldn’t be afraid to voice your opinions, even if others disagree. There are tons of YT videos on lower end wines. Your videos are hugely informative and I’ve learned so much, especially as far fewer people on YT focus on the higher priced wines in such detail. Also, people should know that you can often get amazing some great 3rd to 5th growth Bordeaux for $50-70 online, especially if you order pre-arrival. 2018 Malescot St Exupery for example is at this price, amazingly. Hope you keep it up.
I love your videos and have been exploring growth Bordeaux over the past few months and it’s been fantastic. In the past I only drank $20-40 Bordeaux due to budget limitations. I do agree that drinking classified Bordeaux is different from Cru Bourgeois or Bordeaux superieur etc.
I disagree with those who think you are coming off as pretentious. The channel is called Trophy Wine Hunter-it’s fine to focus on fine wines and more expensive wines. You have your opinions and what you want the channel to be, and you shouldn’t be afraid to voice your opinions, even if others disagree. There are tons of YT videos on lower end wines. Your videos are hugely informative and I’ve learned so much, especially as far fewer people on YT focus on the higher priced wines in such detail. Also, people should know that you can often get amazing some great 3rd to 5th growth Bordeaux for $50-70 online, especially if you order pre-arrival. 2018 Malescot St Exupery for example is at this price, amazingly. Hope you keep it up.
Modular Landing: thank you for viewing my videos and your kind words. I am hoping that by sharing my views on some Trophy Wines, I "experiment" on behalf of my viewers so that when you do buy a Trophy Wine, you know what to expect.
I am glad you get what I am trying to do here. I am trying to create a channel that is not covered by any other UA-camr. I watch a lot of other wine UA-camrs and learn from all of them. But I think it is better for everyone's YT channel to be different and give more variety to viewers.
Thank you for your encouragement and I agree...you can find affordable Growth wines. Just my opinion but I think you should start with Growth wines to give you a base (at least understand the 1855 classification system). This series is made because I am primarily a Bordeaux drinker and I run into a lot of people who don't understand why I like Bordeaux. I think it is in the approach and once we go through this series (which may take a few years), viewers will have a pretty comprehensive understanding of Bordeaux, at least how I see it.
Please continue to support my channel by liking, subscribing and watching. Cheers!
Very fair and common sense expression. Many things expressed with few words. I liked this video very much.
Adrian: thanks so much for viewing my video and your kind words. Please also see the rests of my Bordeaux Wine Basics series. Please like, subscribe and keep watching. Cheers!
Thanks for this! Can you recommend any books that cover French wine, as well as Ian D'Agata does for Italian wine?
Wai Ken Wong: I have to be honest...I started with books but the problem is that things change so fast that a lot of knowledge in books is historical. I think you are better off getting knowledge from the internet from trusted sites and the winery itself.
It terms of books, I love Wine and War: The French, the Nazis, and the Battle for France's Greatest Treasure. It is such an interesting book of how the French has to hide their wines from the Nazis. Complicated because some senior Nazis were wine connoisseurs so you could not pass off bad wines on them. Cheers!
Going to watch all your Bordeaux videos! Studying Bordeaux for a work exam.
Lisa: hopefully I am telling you stuff that is useful, accurate and that will help you on your exam. Some of my ideas and views my not be in line with common beliefs. Cheers!
Thanks for the presentation. Do you have any insights on the new Crus Bourgeois classification? Have Charmail and Lillian Ladouys as my cellar defenders from this class. Currently decanting a 2015 Chateau St. Pierre at the moment.
Amadeus: thanks for viewing my channel and your question. I will probably talk about this in another video but in Bordeaux, my personal opinion is that there are too many Cru Bourgeois level wines for it to mean anything significant. There are 3 levels of Cru Bougeois wines with over 200 wineries. In my opinion, that is too many to mean anything as there is so much variation among the various wineries. Everyone has their personal favourites. Mine are D'Agassac and Malescasse. Look for my upcoming review of Chateau de Villiambis...good winery and I love the story. See my review on this channel of Lilian Ladouys 2017...some people swear by this wine but not personally my favourite Cru Bourgeois. You are going to have to air the 2015 St. Pierre for quite awhile but enjoy it! Cheers!
Wine has been marketed so much and can be so confusing or intimidating that when you actually know about wine it definitely shows sophistication.
Chris: yes, you are very correct. Wine knowledge is a business/life skill now equivalent to golf. I have been invited to many occasions because of my perceived wine knowledge. But the key is to have the right approach as if you come off as pretentious, then no one wants to drink with you. You have to share knowledge with other without coming across as condescending. That approach has yielded many, many great friendships and that opportunity to drink spectacular wines. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter Have you tried Chateau D'issan? Wondering if I should pick up a few bottles of the 2016 which is available near me.
@@chrisginoc haven't tried D'Issan for many years but probably time as I do like the increasing quality of growth Bordeaux wines. Depends on the price you can get it at. Cheers!
Definitely appreciate these kinds of videos unraveling and truly understanding the 1855 classification and what it means today is complicated and not complicated at the same time. It’s outdated which is why you have growth wines that aren’t in the 1855 classification as you mentioned in Pomeral. I think you explained everything very well always a good perspective!
Thanks Wyatt for your support. I know Bordeaux is not as popular or accessible as US or Italian wine but if people like these videos, I will try to explain it in a very simple, consumer friendly way. That is why with Bordeaux, I suggest actually starting with the Growth wines and then moving to Right Bank and some of the minor regions. Once you start tasting Growth wines, you will start to understand the levels of wines. It then become much easier to assess other Bordeaux wines as you have an idea of the quality standards. Most growth wines are still really good wines. You may disagree with their ranking but by and large, they are good place to start. I find too many people spend too much time with the lesser regions in Bordeaux and never really "get" why Bordeaux is priced so high. When drinking Bordeaux, there is lot more emphasis on texture and mouth feel rather than flavors and it is a hard concept to explain without drinking some Growth wines. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter very well explained hope this series continues always good knowledge and conversation ! While I do disagree with the ranking I think the Top growths are still marked distinctly for their quality and it is deserved having that benchmark is essential for understanding the region and the unique style that is the 1855 classified growths of Bordeaux couldn’t agree more !
@@wyattalexander4041 I think you will enjoy some of my unique views on the how to use the classification system to decide which wines to buy. I think I have drank through all of them except about 5 very obscure ones and just knowing a few basic concepts about the classification system can make anyone an expert about Growth wines very quickly. As a sneak peak, my view is that actual level (whether it is a 4 or 5th growth) is not as important as it is relative level (high or low on the system). This is because over decades, wineries will have ups and downs but because of factors I will explain, the system has built in stability so it is almost impossible for example, for a 5th growth wine to have the same quality level as a 2nd growth wine on a consistent basis. It is also very hard for Cru Bourgeous wines to match the quality of even most 5th growth wines (due to factors I will explain) and that is why the classification system is so important to understand...it has a built in mechanism that doesn't allow for much variation. There are exceptions to these general rules but only a few. However, there have been a number of significant factors over the last decade or so that the system was not built to anticipate, which has created huge variation in prices and quality over the last decade. All this is fascinating to me but I think it is a very exciting time to drink Bordeaux as many long held ideas are being challenged with our modern environment.
@@TrophyWineHunter Exactly the environment and the innovations to wineries has really changed a lot Ponet Canet 5th growth comes to mind as a very good example with innovations and now commanding quite the pretty penny. The change in the market during 2010 and ratings truly showed this although much more complicated that this surface level perspective I very much look forward to your thoughts on what you described above great food for thought always love another’s perspective on this topic !
@@wyattalexander4041 Yes, Pontet Canet is making great wines but the huge increase in quality has only come in the last decade or so. I think it is important to look at things historically and if you look at the last 150 years (when the rating system first started), the rating system still works to some extent (Pontet Canet, all the way up to 1990s was not making the quality they are today). I have been fortunate to drink back vintages of some wines back to the 1920s and it would surprise you how some great wines today were very mediocre only a few decades ago...Iikewise there are some wines today that are very low on most people's to drink list that produced stunners only a few decades ago. So I think we have talk a lot about trends and which wineries are on the upswing. Understanding the system will allow you to identify relative value and know what is bs. Pontet Canet is great example of the built in mechanism...no matter how good their quality, there is a ceiling to their price in the short term. That is, they are not getting the credit they deserve based on the quality of, let's say, the last 5 years. If you didn't have this classification system or they were in Napa, they would have much more revenue to do more things, build more wineries, put more money into innovation. Now they have to maintain their quality for decades before it will be noticed by the general wine consuming public. So for better or worse, you don't get wild swings in pricing over a short term period pf 1 or 2 years. Because they can't generate huge increases in revenues, that inhibits their ability to continue or make even better wines. Sorry for the long winded answer but I love talking wine with you!
Some lineup...looking forward to your review of these 1st Growths.
Cory Z: sorry to disappoint but not reviewing...just a teaser to get people to view my video! I am talking about Bordeaux basics and see if viewers like this type of video..Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter LOL...it worked!
do you have any recommendations on the wine cooler? Eurocave or other brands?
Duke: no, sorry, I don't have a specific brand. I think the brand I use is Cellarmaster and it works well for me. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter got it, thanks. Have you ever tried Chateau Fleur Caridinales yet?
@@dukesun4062 yes...I think it is a decent value wine and depending on the price in your jurisdiction, it can be a great buy. But not for long term storage and as I have said in my other videos, you don't learn a lot about why people spend so much on Bordeaux drinking these wines. Please like, subscribe and keep watching. Cheers!
If the vintage is right, than even the cheaper Bordeaux wines can be spectaculair. I am living in Europe, it’s true that the expensive wines can give something that cheaper wines don’t, complexity and real terroir, but in my opinion the new world is just to jammy, to smooth, to easy rider for me, but thats my opinion.
You can drink fantastic Bordeaux in the range of €10-€30 in vintages like the latest 2015,2016,2018,2019… I think that those wines are more appreciated by European drinkers than American wine lovers.
When you are used to big, bold, smooth jammy fruit bombs, Bordeaux can be a little strange, but i almost never drink new world, unless i am in a restaurant en i just want to drink one or two glasses.. i think that value Bordeaux can be the best, the right balance between ripe fruit and fressnes.
Robin: I also prefer Bordeaux in most cases to Napa or New World but I think it is a taste preference and what you are used to. If you started out drinking New World, you probably prefer it. I started out drinking Bordeaux so it is no surprise it is my favorite still. Please like and keep watching! Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter But i don’t think that the value of top end Bordeaux wines are right. The reason that they are that expensive is because of al the theatre, and like you said in a video, the classification wasn’t really about quality.
So what is the price to quality ratio with top end Bordeaux wines? Ofcourse they have the big money, but the winemaking proces isn’t from a different planet. I think that the value of top end Bordeaux in terms of drinking quality doesn’t justifies the price.
The supply and demand of those wines determine the price to a large extend.
Why would you say that drinking Bordeaux wine is about drinking the expensive top end? You aren’t gonna get the drinking value of a €600 to €1000 per bottle, that’s all about theatre and drama. Drinking the most expensive wines because you think that is the fun of drinking Bordeaux has not much to do with the wine quality in the glass.
If you want to drink good value (price quality wine) the first thing you should do, is forget about al the theatre en taste the wines for yourself.. There are so many wine producers in Bordeaux that make wine with love. You pay €800 for a bottle of Latour because on the label it says 1. Latour and 2. Premier cru (1st growth) now that is terrible for the true value of the wine in your glass.
I don’t judge what you said, ofcourse wine drinking is also about fun, but i don’t think that you should drink top end to get value, instead, i think value is disturbed in ratio to the price with top end.
@@rb1084 Thank you for viewing my video and your comment.
You make some great points so let me try address some of them.
You are correct that the price for value ratio for high end Bordeaux (or any Trophy Wine) is not great. But please view my video on Assessing Trophy Wines and their desirability for my explanation to this and why still people buy Trophy Wines.
I don't think I said drinking Bordeaux is about drinking the top expensive wine. I think I said, if you want to learn about Bordeaux, you should start with growth wines because 1/ it is systematic and that is a starting point for learning about pricing and 2/the 1855 Classification System is what everyone talks about when you talk about Bordeaux wines and if you don't know what it is or understand how it works, you are missing the major topic surrounding Bordeaux wines; 3/ if you are happy drinking value Bordeaux and have no time for the expensive wines or the Classification System, that is great but 4/ when drinking value Bordeaux, they may be great wines and have great QPR but they may not be representative of top end Bordeaux wines (which are grown in different regions, use different blends and have different climate).
I did this series of videos as I feel so many people are confused about why Bordeaux prices are so high and they don't "get" Bordeaux. So everyone thinks Bordeaux (or Burgundy) for that matter is overpriced...why year after year do the top end wines continue to escalate in price while the "value" wines remain value wines. Is it that all investors, brokers, retailers and those in the wine trade (who probably drink more wines than most consumers) are all just scamming everyone and don't know what they are tasting or are most consumers not getting it? That is what I am trying to explain to most consumers.
I have a different approach than you. You can drink all the value Bordeaux you like but in my opinion, that will never assist you in appreciating high end wines like Latour. My suggestion is start with the Growth Wines and understand/taste the system. Not all Growth Wines are terribly expensive. You don't even have to agree with the Growth System but you do need to understand it (and most people don't even understand the basic premise that it is not and never has been a ranking of quality) After you have a good grasp of Growth Wines (which I believe are the best representations of each region), then you can go to value and you appreciate the value of those wines but you can also taste the difference. That will give you some appreciation of the price difference but agree, when you are drinking high end Bordeaux, your primary consideration is not value.
Again, I don't judge people on their wine choices. As long as you are happy, then great. But I find a lot of people buying high end Bordeaux or high end other wines are disappointed. They pop and open and want the wine to impress them. It is almost like they treat a wine like an entertainer...like I am going to a concert...I paid money...now give me a good show. That, in my opinion, is not how wine works. At the top end, it is about the history and the consistency of quality. The nuances of how they produce wine, the quality controls they put in place to make sure you are getting the most out of the grape. It its about letting the wine speak to you and for the wine to take the lead....not for you to demand from the wine that I want you drink well after 1 hour aeration, etc. For Latour now, it is about not releasing the wine until they think it is starting to reach its drinking window. It is about drinking a wine over several (like 6) hours and even the next day or multiple bottles over the years and seeing how the wine evolves. It is about following the trajectory of wine from when it is very young (en primeur), to youth, to just coming to age, to hitting its plateau, to trying to hang on to its glory, to elegant old age. I appreciate many people don't have the resources to follow a wine like Latour through this process but just because it is exceedingly expensive to be able to do this doesn't mean it doesn't happen. For those fortunate enough to experience, it is like a magnet to pull you back to these wines.
Sorry for the long winded message but just want to explain how I see things. Again, enjoy the discussion and not saying my view is the right view but I hope I assist people understand the mindset in enjoying high end Bordeaux. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter Thank you for your detailed answer, I understand you better now.
I don't think our opinions really differ much and I agree that people approach expensive Bordeaux wine in the wrong way.
I think I misunderstood, learning and drinking are indeed different things.
Thank you, Gr Robin
@@rb1084 thank you for keeping an open mind. That is what I love about this channel..my viewers are very polite but really thoughtful. I love engaging in discussions about wine and sharing views. I actually learn a lot from my viewers and comments help me to keep on track and make sure my points are being understood clearly. Cheers!
Hi. What's the lowest price point of a high-end Bordeaux would you consider going?
lioninthenight: thank you for viewing my video but I am not sure I understand the question. Do you mean what is the lowest price or lowest level of wine I would consider high-end Bordeaux? I am not sure exactly if I have a price point as prices here are different than around the world but they way I have classified my reviews is that value wines are wines I can purchase for under CDN$50. Premium wines are wine up to around $500. Trophy wines are wines that are very hard to purchase at retail, very exclusive or very expensive (over $500). Not sure if that answers your question but my idea of what is a high end Bordeaux might different than other people. I don't think I have really defined in my mind what is a high end Bordeaux....did I use that phrase in the video somewhere?
Please like, subscribe and keep watching. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter Yeah, I purchase wine at a wine shop here in Los Angeles. I'm just trying to ascertain what the price range for high-end Bordeaux wines is. If 50$ and below are considered value wines, then would high-end wines be 50$ on up? I'm not talking about $500 wines. In my mind, high-end wines that I'm willing to purchase are between $50 and $200. I want to drink quality Bordeaux. $500 would be out of my price range unless I did it for a special occasion. Thanks!
@@Lioninthenight I think price here in BC, Canada are much higher than LA so I would say between your price range, you are getting a pretty nice wine. But note that the "nicer" the Bordeaux you get, the longer you have wait for it to get to its drinking window. Just check the various reviews on my channel but for a value Bordeaux like Chateau Marjosse, you could drink now or within the next 5 years. But let's say for a wine like Brane Cantenac or Leoville Barton, you are looking at probably waiting 8-10 years before it hits it drinking window.
Perhaps also view my video on the difference between Napa and Bordeaux wines.
I wouldn't worry too much about price. I would just starting drinking at a certain price level and if you find value in that range, then keep going. With Bordeaux, my suggestion is to start with Left Bank Classified Growths as that gives you some type of structure to follow. I think most 3-5th would fit into your price range. Then move to Right Bank and then finally value Bordeaux. I just think if you start with value Bordeaux, you will never see the value of high end Bordeaux as it is 2-10x more in price. But in my opinion, there is distinct difference between value Bordeaux and some of the higher end Bordeaux as value Bordeaux, although good, does not provide you with as much distinctness of what make a wine a Bordeaux wine.
Hope this helps. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter It helped immensely! Thank you, Sir!
@@Lioninthenight cheers!
Bordeaux. My favo:)
yourfilm1000: thanks for viewing and your comment. Keep watching. Cheers!
Bordeaux 101... Start with $1000 plus bottles. Lol
Brendan: thanks for viewing my video and your comment.
I know this may be upsetting to some but in my opinion, the way to understand to Bordeaux is to understand (not drink) from the top. That is why I am starting with the 1855 Classification System and Right/Left Bank wines. If you don't understand the system and how it is used, you will never understand why Bordeaux wines are so expensive.
I find many people are disillusioned with Bordeaux and in my opinion, that is because they start their knowledge from the bottom. My point is you learn very little about Bordeaux by understanding value Bordeaux, many of which are great wines but are not distinctly Bordeaux and have little resemblance to the top wines.
What I am trying to do is to give viewers a lay of the land with Bordeaux wines. It is still today the region that commands the most demand at auctions and which drives wine prices. So if you are aspiring to drink higher end wines, most of them are Bordeaux, although things are changing.
A lot of my viewers are experienced drinkers who do have experience with these wines but for those who don't, just bear with me. I have done videos on 1st, 2nd and 3rd growth wines. So if you watch the entire series, I am now talking about wines in the $100-200 range, which is still a lot. But eventually I will get down to the value regions and then viewers will have a complete picture of the region and how everything fits in.
My point is Bordeaux, like Napa, like Burgundy are not the best regions for quality to price ratio. Not that you can't find value....just that it is very tough and it will not really further your education into higher end wines. I tried to make the point that if you are only interested in drinking value wines, then really you can ignore this series of videos. I try to also do some videos on value wines and also have a Starting from the Bottom series for beginners.
Hope this kinda makes sense and hope you keep watching. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter if you don't understand the characteristics of a basic bordeaux, how are you going to understand what sets them apart for higher end bordeaux. Need to have a foundation.
Understanding the classification system is one thing. But to say only 1st through 5th growth bordeaux is the only wine worth drinking is a little far fetched. Bordeaux is one of the greatest wine making regions in the world. Lots of fabulous wines at all price points. Judge the wine in the bottle, not based on a label.
@@brendan4901 love the discussion! Not saying you are incorrect...just saying this is how I see things as my belief is that you can do this with some regions (ie start with basic wines and move up) where it doesn't really work well with Bordeaux and Burgundy.
If I gave you the impression that only the growth wines are the only Bordeaux wines worth drinking, that is not correct. But if you want to drink Trophy wines in Bordeaux, then you have to start with understanding at the top (in my opinion). I thought I said in the video that value wines are great and nothing wrong with not wanting to drinking trophy wines but this series was if you wanted to get into Trophy wines. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.
I see so many people very confused about why Bordeaux is so expensive. So they actually end up missing some great wines at relatively reasonable prices. I do not agree with your statement that you have to understand basic bordeaux before you understand higher end bordeaux and that is my point. Basic bordeaux and higher end bordeaux drink differently. Most basic bordeaux drink well initially and then drop off over time. Most high end Bordeaux drink fleshy for about 9 months, then close down for between 5-20 years. As an example, my upcoming tasting of the 2016 Langoa Barton was virtually undrinkable when it came out of the bottle but is probably one of the best wines they have ever produced. Still tight after 5-6 hours of aeration and won't be ready for another 10 years. Generally value Bordeaux have different terroir and are the first to be hit by frost.
Here is my perspective....if you start learning from the top and you understand all the innovations, resources the top wineries have, you start to understand why certain wineries just cannot consistently make wines at 1st or 2nd growth levels. Then you actually start drinking down the ladder to see at what price point you get value. If you go the other way (ie drink from basic Bordeaux), you will never recognize the value of a high end Bordeaux and will come to the conclusion that high end Bordeaux is overpriced and you will never develop an appreciation for trophy Bordeaux wines. Maybe not a bad thing for your wallet but you will never get out of value proposition mindset. Then you will never understand the mindset of those high end buyers and why you would pay $1000 for a bottle of wine.
However, I do agree with your statement that there are great wines at every price point. Unfortunately, if you only judge the wine by what is the bottle and not the label, you will never understand trophy wines as we have to admit part of the appeal is the label, the history, the status and what it represents.
Not sure if this makes sense to you but again, I love the discussion. My views are not right for everyone but I am just trying to give me take on why people don't really get Bordeaux. Cheers!
@@TrophyWineHunter appreciated the discussion. Perhaps I will have to give one a try. Been looking at a 2015 chateau lagrange. Within my price range. Perhaps will pull the trigger
@@brendan4901 Look for at my 3rd growth videos...most are in the $100-200 Canadian range. Lagrange is OK but there are better ones, in my opinion. Having said that, there was a time I really like Lagrange myself for the price. The other one that always seems to be not that expensive is Lafon Rochet.
Cheers!
Oof. Where to start. This has 100% turned me against your channel. I have had the pleasure and honor to meet some great sommeliers and Masters of Wine. None are as pretentious as you come off as in this video.
This is such a shame really, but that is my fault. I guess now I know why you call yourself the "The Trophy Wine Hunter". Drink you what you like, not what others say you should like. I wish you the best, thanks for the great videos up until now.
JM: thank you for your viewing my channel and your comment. Sorry I turned you off. If I sounded pretentious I probably was but I didn't intend to be. Quite upsetting as I believe you are a long time viewer and I value your comments. I would love to hear what bothered you and I am happy to acknowledge when I have (or am) pretentious or "uppedity" or to clarify my statements. But based on my experience, with Bordeaux you have to start with the growth wines. So many people drink value Bordeaux and they don't get a sense or understanding of Bordeaux. The other point I will make, in upcoming videos is that is there are many growth wines that are priced at the same level at Cru Bourgeous. So many people are turned off by Bordeaux and my point is if I can make it simple for people to understand, it actually makes it more accessible. Having said that, you put it quite correctly...life is short and wine is meant to bring you pleasure....if my videos are going to get you upset, there are plenty of other great people on UA-cam who give great information about wine. I just think I give a pretty unique perspective as I am consumer and do have a lot of drinking experience, particularly with Bordeaux. Cheers!
I love your videos and have been exploring growth Bordeaux over the past few months and it’s been fantastic. In the past I only drank $20-40 Bordeaux (and a few in the 60-80 but not much) due to budget limitations. I do agree that drinking classified Bordeaux is different from Cru Bourgeois or Bordeaux superieur etc. It has been eye opening.
I disagree with those who think you are coming off as pretentious. The channel is called Trophy Wine Hunter-it’s fine to focus on fine wines and more expensive wines. You have your opinions and what you want the channel to be, and you shouldn’t be afraid to voice your opinions, even if others disagree. There are tons of YT videos on lower end wines. Your videos are hugely informative and I’ve learned so much, especially as far fewer people on YT focus on the higher priced wines in such detail. Also, people should know that you can often get amazing some great 3rd to 5th growth Bordeaux for $50-70 online, especially if you order pre-arrival. 2018 Malescot St Exupery for example is at this price, amazingly. Hope you keep it up.
Modular Landing: thank you so much for your kind comments. Cheers!