Rating a Doomstack that isn't as good as you might think
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
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How does the physical resistance point about the second lot of physical resistance being more valuable talked about in the video work mathematically? If I have 100 damage coming in, and the first 20% resistance reduces it to 80 damage, wouldn't an additional 20% of the original 100 damage reduce it to 60 damage, making it just as valuable as the first 20%?
you have 4 units. each with 10000 hp. no.1 has no resistance. no.2 has 20% resistance. no3 has 40% resistance. no4 has 60% resistance. Enemy dishes 100 damage per hit base damage. no1 takes 100 damage per hit and takes 100 hits before its dead. no 2. takes 80 damage per hit and takes 125 hits until dead. no.3 takes 60 damage per hit and takes 166.6 hits until dead no.4 takes 40 damage per hit and takes 250 hits until dead.
Every single damage reduction % is worth more than the previous one.
@@LegendofTotalWar Very clear explanation, thank you!
Yeah, this is a principle that everyone who played Diablo 2 non casually probably knows. If you have 60% fire resist and get a +20% somehow, you'll take half the damage you were taking previously, and therefore survive double the hits.
@@IAmebAdger And then if you assume the hit chance is 35% (which is just the base chance) and a 4s attack interval:
0% :286 attacks = 1143s
20%:357 attacks = 1429s
40%:477 attacks = 1905s
60%:714 attacks = 2857s
80%:1429 attacks = 5714s
90%:2857 attacks = 11429s
You can see how much more valuable resistance is the more you stack.
The damage required to kill you increases exponentially as your resistance percentage goes up. Each percentage point is worth more than the last. (Up to cap of 85% I believe)
TFW you spend a week trying to get legend to review your doomstack and you forgot to equip your wizard with a mount
Right? He could clearly afford the mount.
Pomp Daddy
Jesus. At almost 1200 gold per dread saurian the 3 Delf armies still probably cost less than the single lizard man army to maintain.
@@mcmarkmarkson7115 Man I would love seeing Dread Saurians in MP battles. Asides from being really big targets, they are also a dread saurian. Seeing one of those with such massive killing potential makes people kinda go "I want all guns on that thing now!" and suddenly 2k gold gone. Can't fix that but maybe higher missile resist or some physical would be really beneficial. 110 armor is a lot so I don't think they'll be benefitting all that much from an extra 5-10.
@@amphitheremajesticon4928 110 armor really isn't that high and people vastly overestimate the value of armor esp for large targets vs ranged units. Rememebr thatarmor is DR calculated at a value between 50% and 100% of the armor value thus damage resistance vs non ap can be as low as 55% for the dread saurian or other high ap units. Against massed ranged fire this really dissapears easily and you can rapidly lose your "armored" unit to something like high elf archer spam where the sheer volume of attacks overwhelms you. Remember a shielded unit likely has 50% block on top of their armor and they still can die to ranged fire fairly easily
@@Mr.ToadJanfu 110 armor just makes it a good candidate for armor buffs as just like how stacking ward save, missle resist, etc. are effective, stacking armor is effective in the same way. With the cap being 200 armor.
Speaking of which, it's common strategy to use things like the Legions of Chaqua and the Shield of the Old ones to stack ward save and Missle Resist on Dread Saurians in multiplayer so they don't get blasted to death so easily. If you are dealing with non-armor piercing missiles, which is certainly possible due to cost restraints in multiplayer, armor buffs can be effective on them as well.
Really wish Dread saurians had a like base 20% physical resist, they just crumble to any real damage
They need at least 40% physical resistence concidering the amount of focus the AI put on them. They are like one of if not the single most difficult unit to recruit in the game (not counting heroes), they should be significantly more powerfull than that.
@@florians9949 Honestly I think heroes, aside from skink oracles and tomb kings, are way easier to recruit than the dread saurians with the skink oracles being just as hard
LOL, everything said in the first sentence "We are rating a doom stack, which is also kinda lika a desaster battle" :P
I mean, we've had several Stegadon armies that he needed to be saved (3/4 times it was on Forced March... of course only the AI can abuse march without risk)
Wondered when I’d see this army
Isn't even an army really, just 1 unit/battalion of dread saurians lol
You were too generous to them, they need a tier 5 building to recruit so if you build the mage building insted you could do a priest stegadon doomstack
Lizards can actually have a shortage of buildings to make at t5. Every settlement I can fit a Dreadsaurian Building and a Mage building
@@Totaluser1 but it cost much more money
@@user-me7iw6ft8z hopefully you have your money sorted by the time you have 18 Tier 5 settlements lol, also the building gives +6% factionwide post battle loot, so 18×6=108% more post battle loot, that will pay itself off.
@@Totaluser1 even if you do that still better to use stegadons they last much longer...
@@user-me7iw6ft8z
Not for the AI with unlimmited funds (:
honestly, I've had Dread Saurian's in my army before and they honestly die so quickly they are such a massive target that enemy missile and melee attacks can't miss they also get focused down by the ai so much that they never get a chance to utilise their full potential they are also too slow for their size as well.
That’s what makes me sad about how CA treats the Lizerdman. They got 3 DLCs and the only good thing they got was the Cult of Sotek and the Engine of the Gods. Everything else stand between meh and and uter garbage.
If only they had better animations, then they might actually be worth something
@@florians9949 I mean Kroq Gar, when he's rolling, is amazing. Problem being is you need to focus on going for Carno's ASAP, which means large growth + industry focus, which then of course leads the campaign to taking way longer.
However, once you have carnosaurs unlocked + grymlok for Kroq-Gar with his red tree bonus for them, they do become pre beefy (focus technologies too). Add in Kroak, your priest and maybe a scar-saurus veteran, and it's very difficult to lose.
When legend spends the first part of the video talking about how your doomstack isn’t as good as it looks.
I hope Warhammer 3 fixes a lot of the derpiness with monster units. If they didn't spend so much time standing still doing nothing and constantly slapped their targets around, they'd be so much better.
They also block each other more in melee than Stegadons.
Awesome to look at in the starting position, but worth surprisingly little in actual combat.
Having AI and money in the same sentence made me giggle.
I've been waiting for this one for a long time
Dread Saurians have severely underperformed in my Legendary lizard men campaigns
yeah they just can't hold up and alot of that has to do with their size and speed. its just a better use of your money to get a feral carno. they're really fun and cool and on normal difficulty they'll do fine.
@@joedatius
Agreed, Feral Carnisors are way more fun
One Dread Saurian per army is ok.
@@Pickatimatrina
That’s what I thought, but they’re just such a big Target that Dark Elves were killing them so quickly. I think I just plain prefer Carnisaurs now for their speed, smaller size and decent animations while fighting infantry
Hit them from the sides. And try and use them to pick off a single unit at a time, then when they run chase with cold ones
as a person who really likes the lizardmen but doesnt have this dlc, i just want to see this battle play out
@@strangelizard439 I find them useful as a support unit not as the main force. One or two in a slower army do quite well, but are affordable only in the late campaign when you can afford temple guard armies. No way I am paying for this early when I need the gold for steggos.
Lizardmen don't need any dlc. Unless you want to play Cult of Sotek with their unique mechanics, you can pass on it.
@@proxyx3557 which is the awkward thing, why have a support unit that costs more than anything else in your army? They're basically just fun for the cool factor and that's about it sadly.
@@sympunny8636 Most units are just for fun, at least on the higher difficulties. Some are even unplayable or at least have 0 benefits. The dreadsaurians are at least good around other units that protect them from being swarmed. Stuff like war wagons on the other hand is bad no matter how you support it.
@@proxyx3557 true, but at least those war wagons don't have an insane price tag, and a unit cap and they can kite. Who on earth thoughts dread saurians were so op they needed a unit cap? lel
Pomp daddy 10/10
Glad someone liked it
For Dread Saurians, they need to make them super units. Add a unit cap, buff their stats/abilities, and fix their physics. Dread Saurians are extremely scary and dangerous giant monsters. The way they play should reflect that. Just an opinion, but I wouldn't mind removing them from the multiplayer roster in order to make them more lore friendly.
Lizardmen is one of my favorite factions to play, so seeing this stack is cool. However I would rate this stack super low along with what legend said, but he didn't point out that since Dread Saurians are so large they tend to push each other around a lot, causing the AI to bug out and not actually attack properly. Using 1-3 Saurians in an army as a supportive unit has worked much better for myself and they don't push one another or their target. (single entities)
2:17 don't worry Legend, dread saurians are awful in multiplayer as well.
Buff dready boi, Units can be diffrent in the multiplayer and campaign like please this is the only unit that has a damn unit cap did CA just not want us to see how shite 18 bags of meat lumbering forward was. 7/10 im very suprised.
It’s hard to make them good, just like giants, you can’t magically make them small and fast which are their biggest problems
@@changliu7346 sure you can't make them small and fast, but you can give them more physical and missile resistance or even ward save. Plus better animations and an aoe attack or more charge bonus. Their speed is actually slightly higher than the war mammoth which is an infinitely better large unit, so it is possible to make good, they just haven't chosen to.
Simply Being able to hit more models per attack would make them a lot stronger, half their damage per attack is overkill damage so its just wasted, and a bit more health wouldn't hurt.
One of the issues is a large part of their cost is due to their HP and Lizardmen don't really care about raw HP since they can heal everyone. You are unlikely to actually heal much more since you will probably run out of winds of magic first.
It depends: the player won't run out of winds of magic if he has 15/20 knowledgeable skink priest and oracles around the map, plus has the Black Pyramid.
Anyway since Kroq-Gar buffs them and can reduce their upkeep cost a lot he is the only lord that makes this army viable (of course he needs at least one oracle and good old Ratok). I think they work better with 3/4 blessed stegadon since they can keep up with them and they can make breaches in walls. I suppose ten dread saurian is the ideal number
Surprisingly high score! Much too expensive and MUCH too hard to get compared to even hero armies. 7/10, to me it's at best 5/10 a barely-doomstack to flaunt cash, heh.
3/10 even if it wins battles you're gonna lose hard to replace units I've been let down every time I've tried to use them
BuT LegEnd You Can NoT LoSe A bAttLe!
I had expected something like 5/10 or less...expensive, not easy to recruit and not that powerful is a bad combination.
Both rogue idol and dread saurias should be buffed.They need more missile resistance and maybe physical resistance,better attack animations and shit tons of more ma&md.Every missile hits them, every single model in unit surround them which causes them to melt like a butter. Even bastiladons have ma bonus againts infantry but not the dread saurians.
It would break the pvp, dread boy is doing his work not that bad
I dont think these huge, lumbering monsters should have more MD. MA and Weapon strength, yes. Better animations, yes. Resists, maybe. But not MD. Like, the creature has is about 10 meters long and doesnt move very fast. How hard can it be to actually hit it?
Rogue Idol is insanely strong especially under Wurzag (55% physical resistance on something with 150 armor ...) and deals substantially more damage due to animation of damage against small entities. Seen Rogue Idol killing ~~30+ dudes in one attack ... idk how splash attack works for them but they are super strong in combat. They are slow but they WAY better than Dread Saurian, even if they could lose 1 vs 1 , doesnt change they are just straightforward better in majority of situations.
Frankly was against army full of cannons which should "counter" super slow big monsters. But that just isn't case combination of armor , 55% physical resistance and missile resistance they get from red tree etc makes those cannon balls casually bounce.
Only way to reliably counter them is armor piercing AND magical attack at same time.
Now Dread Saurians ... I really dislike this piece of shit. Was in games where one fucking cannon unit took 50% of Dread Saurian HP before it even closed into combat. Not to mention it dies super fast in CC. Probably worst unit in terms of upkeep to combat value ratio in game.
@@danielkrejcar9104 I agree and that makes sense,only reason i said that units like chosen(3m long,slightly faster than a dead body,wearing an armor of a space marine) also has very high MD which doesnt makes sense too.But they need that right?So i believe md is more like" not giving a fuck about getting hit" rather than "dodging enemy attack" lol
@@Mario-kf3ej Thanks for sharing your point of view,i totally missed wurzag part.But i think it can still have benefit from more missile resistance :P
Dread Saurian is like a stupid version of mammoths. Mammoths are kinda the same but they do MASSIVE aoe dmg, while the Saurian just does nothing... They have the same hp but cost less and are much easier to get. Saurian is a liability rather than an asset. I think alot of people are being decived by its high range dmg, but it does not translate into battle, cause its so inacurate and does almost nothing... Mammoth stack would have taken these 3 armies, maybe with some casualities, but you can just pump more of them. I think CA should make units like the Saurian alot more powerfull, cause of the cap. They should have like 20k hp and lots of resistances.
They either need to be buffed or cost WAY less. I recruited one once just to see what it could do. I quickly learned to NEVER recruit them. 😄
The balance of the game is made for multiplayer not campain. In multi if you are unprepared for such a big and armored monster it's straight up game over, if that thing had 20k hp how would you cut through it with limited funds ? Also, their damage potential do translate into battle since its attack animation allows two attacks (like a dragon charge animation) to connect and is pretty fast, so unlike mammoth they are terror in the night in a dueling situation.
You make a good point tho that mammoth are usualy more cost effective especialy in campain. I think that rather than buffing them directly, CA should make tech that grants them ward save or missile resistance so they don't feel so squishy when fighting massive army.
@@TheDinofou Almost no one plays multiplayer when compared to campaign. Like 5% of players regularly play multiplayer. There's also no reason a unit has to cost the same in single and multi. Saurian would be fine in campaign if they dropped the price.
@@a.hollins8691 Cost depends on raw stats and how the unit does in a tested environement where there is limited funds and no external buff ie. in multiplayer.
Campaign isn't supposed to be balanced, so arguably they could change the cost of units when it underperforms. But it is much easier to change faction traits, techs and mechanics otherwise CA would have to look into every units available in campaign.
I think we're also missing the big picture here. This is a cheese channel. Dreadsaurian where never meant to be a doomstacks unit since doomstacks are just a way the players have found to cope with legendary difficulty battle without being good at microing. Dreadsaurian are supposed to be an anchor piece of your army and can sometimes act as a leadership bomb or a lord sniping tool. If you keep them supported (meaning if you don't isolate them into the ennemy lines) they'll ditch out damage just how they're supposed to and are actualy tanky when there isn't hundreds of anti-large specialist poking their buttholes..
@@TheDinofou Even in multiplayer, they're never used, outside of memes.
They are too expensive and are never worth the money for how ineffective they are.
I've used dread saurians before and was so disappointed at how fast their hp went down from skaven slingers. It's almost like a giant in a way.
Even at 7/10 I think that's still quite overrated. Personally, I couldn't give that more than 5/10. This is supposed to be a DOOMSTACK, not a regular army. Given the cost, the impracticality, and how ineffective they make healing, I think it's pretty garbage.
Ah yes, the Dread Saurian, aka "The unit that makes giants look good"
7/10 for such a bad stack that costs 20k/turn, bruh
Its not a bad stack (if you don't consider the cost). This was a hard battle. He said a stegadon doomstack wouldn't be able to handle that battle either.
Also, I think the scale is just how good of an army it is, not how good it is for a doomstack. Like, a 1-5 probably wouldn't even be a doomstack. Itd be lower tier units or something awful that doesnt work at all.
I feel like this could be put at 6, though
@@Loj84 A stegadon stack with a few casters on solar engines would've ripped through it easily. They even cost the same.
Legend: this is not a good doomstack
Also Legend: this is 7/10
Legend is the one who rated average legendary lords 7/10, he's really generous in notation XD
@@krankarvolund7771 he has a point in his evaluations for Legendary lords though. With his criteria going below 4/10 would require active harm to your faction for having the lord
@@houndofculann1793 In his actual criterias, yes. But in the first videos, I think it was for the greenskins, a lord that would do nothing or close to nothing would have a 7/10 ^^
all the ratings are basically four point scales from 7 to 10.
Dread Saurians are a very cool unit, and they can be absolute MONSTERS but i think as a doomstack they come up very lacking. I think a 7/10 rate is higher than it should have been rated. I wonder if the battle could have been micro'd better/differently and had a drastically different outcome, or if there would be no benefit for doing so. This doomstack also could be poorly matched against the DE though and they could do much better against other targets, perhaps even the stout dawi?
i am surprised by the 7/10
More like .7
@@a.hollins8691 agreed. Dreadsaurian only works if its in a mixed army. on its own, cant do much. 0.7/10 for me too. Used it but never like it at all
Same here. I was sure Legend would rate a 5 or 6 maximum.
Seen this is why I believe CA purposely made Dread saurians shit so they would not have balance problems. Overly priced, underpowered, overly vulnerable and useless even in high numbers.
Its honestly depressing see him and other big units not as good as they sure should be.
well it depends what you mean by other big units not being as good as they should be. Mammoths, shaggoths, normal stegadons (and engine of the gods), star dragons, necrofex collosi, khemrian warsphinxs, arachnarok spiders, vargheists are all really good units, there are just a few like the dread saurian that kinda suck.
Dread Saurian is the MOST overrated unit in the game. They are so rediculously vulnerable against missle fire that any T0 crappy archer can shoot the ass out of them
Sure, but any large monster spam army will struggle against dark elves. Dark elves roster is full of AP damage units, shades pretty much melt any large monster. Even Legends usual lizardmen doomstack will struggle hard against dark elves.
No, your father!
@@KangarooLord my dragon spam doen't struggle against dark elf XD
Dread Saurian is basically a bigger (which means bigger hp, hit box, area of effect, etc.), more expensive War Mammoth, so thats not true. A unit of T1 & below archers, even on legendary, can fire all of their ammo uninterrupted and never take out more than 1/2 of its hp.
He tested it against 3 full stacks of DE, I dont see any other army that isnt hero spam that can take this in one go without massive cheese and he could have won if his wizard was on a mount (dragon spam would definitly not do better in this situation).
Like Legend said, the cost effectiveness is its biggest weakness, not its pure power...
@@bigbowss9817 plus, arent mammoths way faster?
People are severely ignorant about the "melee defense" stat. Apart from basic units, everything has a shitton of ArmorPiercing. I wish people who are building these "doomstacks" played a tank in MMO like a WoW. The "Effective Health Pool" is what I am talking about.
In case of Dread Saurians, you have huge monster that is a magnet for a lot of units attacking it and its melee defense is piss poor. So basically even crippled, no-hands veterans will be able to strike it. And with armor being successfully negated by AP, it JUST has a huge health pool, while providing monumental target for all archers. It is a joke of a unit.
Having a chaperone army for Dread Saurians can be very useful. Having a unit stand literally on top of a dread saurian dramatically increases their manuverability and gives a wall that spearman infantry can't get through. On top of that, splash attacks from units like War Mammoths will be completely absorbed by the Dread Saurian. Given how massive it is, it's hard to not hit the Dread Saurian at the same time. So the chaperone army can be protected from lethal melee splash attacks.
It makes sense why a Dread Saurian doomstack would fail given their low melee defense. As big as their weapon strength is, not being able to live is a huge problem for Dread Saurians. Dread Saurians are definitely meant to be a glass cannon unit, even in spite of its health pool. Funny enough, Stegadons are 100% more cost effective than Dread Saurians in every way.
Yeah, this went as expected. It would tear through hordes of greenskins, but the Dwarves would slaughter half your army before you get your first kill in, and then you'd still have to deal with the slayers. Never mind the Wood Elves, or Alarielle with her trees and Sisters. In all fairness, I think 19 carnosaurs and a life Slaan would perform better overall. With their speed, you can at least choose where to engage, and where to kite. That, and it is cheaper and easier to recruit.
Having said all this. Have you tried an Imrik Dragon spam yet?
funny you say that I have recently played an Imrik campaign and can honestly say I was super impressed with a dragon spam army along with the legendary dragons it was a force to be reckoned with I always thought dragons were overhyped and had never used them but I was able to take on 4 Skaven armies and 3 dark elf armies in one battle like this one with very little damage every enemy I put them against was little challange.
@@finlaylooney3346 Yeah, I did the same thing when he just came out and had similar results. In hindsight, though, I think I'd forego the legendary dragons and just spam star dragons all around. That way, you can group-select and fire breath everything.
He tried a full Imrik dragon stack with tons of unique dragons in his first Imrik campaign.
And another battle where the ai sacrifices its general for no reason at the beginning... How hard can it be to fix that?
Dread Saurain is pretty much an armored four leg giant, what do people think they will get.
Lore wise, the strongest dino on lustria
I love just having one Dread Saurian. But it there mainly for terror shocks and for the spectacle because they're so animated. There are better units for that at a fraction of the cost obviously.
They do make neat duellists in the rare chance a duel can take place that huge weapon strength the poison arrows and all the AP mixed with the fact that sometimes it will do a rapid double hit animation. Lets em shred other monsters and lords pretty well just keeping them alive is a real pain and saps away at precious WoM that could be used better elsewhere.
Saurians can perform when they have friendly infantry nearby to prevent the enemy from surrounding them. Their problem is just they get surrounded and killed to easily if exposed. They just need a lot more babying than you’d think a giant Dino would need.
For me they make amazing flaking units. Send the main army in, do the mainline hold in fight that lizards are best at, then bring up a giant lizard from the side or rear of the enemy
Why lizardmen are poor faction? Don't they boost their money a lot by geomancy? Of course none can be compared to HE or DE, but Norsca or Greenskins look waaaaay worse.
they did ma bois dirty with the dreadsaurian, it is not the powerhouse it should be. It needs missile resistance and also animations that work, the dreadsaurian spends most of it time in combat turning around after it has spun itself around and it gets stuck on everything. I would love to see like 40 percent missile resistance at least plus the chariot effect like norscan war mammoths. Great video though!
It's funny how a creature so massive, mighty and powerful, even lorewise, it's actually such a crappy unit in this game.
I'll never forget the time I first saw one in a defensive siege battle: I blocked the gates and brought down the fat lizard with 2 units of fucking terrodonts. Most disappointing day of my life
dark elves just suck to fight in general... I remember when I was fighting them in my lizard men it was like pulling teeth because they always just run away and kite you W/ perfect micro and ranged units.
7/10 way too high considering the stack was suboptimal and you lost the battle, not to mention cost and impracticality. At full strength with the mount and proper leveling of the life slann I would have said 7/10 is maybe suitable, maybe 6.5 just because of how expensive it is and requiring 18 lvl 5 settlements for all the Dread Saurians. At this form however 5 or lower based on your own standards.
Definitely lower than a 7, hard to recruit overly expensive to maintain, and not actually that effective in battle. I'd have given it a 5 as it's twice as expensive as a 10/10 Stegadon doomstack so you can have two 10/10 doomstacks for the same price which makes you twice as effective in the campaign.
I don't particularly agree with the 7/10 Rating, I feel like the Chaos Knights quite fairly out performed this one even in bad conditions for cavalry.
*God I wish Chaos was actually fun to play.*
So, question to everyone.
What do you think about Lizardmen in comparison to the other races in terms of Single player on legendary?
I'm not going to lie, I honestly just really hate them. I'd go as far as to say I think the Lizardmen might be one of the worst races in the game, and when compared to the other three base WH:2 races, the contrast in power between High/Dark elves and skaven when compared to Lizardmen is pretty extreme.
With that said, I know a lot of that could be personal bias since I just don't really like melee focused armies, or armies where you build 20 single entity units and let them stomp around for 10 minutes until the battles over. I like formations and having different styles of units compliment each other, or atleast having units work together, like using shades as a front line to cover for the bulk of the other shades who offer support fire, and I feel the lizardmen just can't do that late game and be effective.
I just find the lizardmen boring and weak, and I'd be curious to here if this is a common sentiment, or if people enjoy them for reasons besides lizardmen being visually cool, which I 100% Agree with. I've shamelessly stolen a lot of inspiration from Warhammer to make D&D Lizardmen a more fun race in my games. I honestly really, really wish I enjoyed playing the race, but I always just end up feeling bored and frustrated whenever I try to pick them up.
Dread Saurians are so laughably bad. It's sad. Carnosaurs are far better.
I’m currently on the toilet and I’m pissing out of my ass
this army is stupidly easier to get and cheaper with nakai because his armies can recuit them in one turn if you get the tech tree right, not to mention the other variant you can get as well
If u uninstall warhammer 1, does it cut off the dlc from game 2?
no
I read the title and immediately thought of a dread saurian doom stack and the video certainly didn't disappoint.
I have never recruited dread saurians so far, but I always thought they're way overpriced. They always underperformed in AI armies given their price tag.
"it's not good doomstack" -- 7/10
What is a 3/10? What is a 0/10?
I hear he only rates doomstacks between 7 and 10. The logic escapes me, but it's his rule.
Probably because it could have beat a single army easily, it’s still a very powerful army, just not really a doom stack
In the Pompous Hero army I see 5 Carnosaur riders, then all the Skink Chiefs and Skink Priests most likely using the Stegadon mounts. But how many Engine of the Gods would you add to one army?
Not gonna lie, I knew this was coming. And I was waiting for it
Dread saurians underperform in almost every single circumstance I've used them in. Mass dread saurians, a few within any other stack, whatever. They just take too much damage and deal too little while taking the slot of something that would take less and do more.
Thats why i run a mod that gives them six of those super dart shooter things instead of just the two. I felt for the money they needed more oomph. Makes them something of a mobile weapons platform.
7/10 is too high for this, if those armies had had more missile units you would have lost even harder. Dread Saurians really are just bad units.
A lot of the stacks were Elite anti large and range units, not a good match up. Healing is way better than damage when you are playing single entity units cause it does not lose units and allways get everything out of your heals.
8:50 Measuring the exact value of percentile damage reductions is tricky. My best approach thus far is to look at it as a multiplier for effective Hitpoints:
1. Figure out the rest damage. In this case 100%-22% = 78%
2. Divide 100 by the rest damage percentage: 100/78% = 100/0,78 = 128
3. Take the result of 2, divide by 100, then substract 1 and write it as percentage: (128/100) -1 = 1,28-1 = 0,28 = 28%
22% Damage reduction increase effective health by +28%
25% Damage reduction would give you +33%
50% Damage reduction would give you +100% (doubling effective HP)
75% Damage reduction would give you +300% (quadrupling effective HP)
95% Damage reduction would give you +1900% (multiplication by 20). And I think 95% is the maximum fed into any damage formula.
Higher value have a disproportionately higher effect then smaler values.
its not about that its about reaching higher number of hits needed to die
@@alpacaherder5680 The first 4 words are disagreement. In the rest you explain exactly the thing I alraedy explained, clearly indicating that you agree...
If it’s “not a good” doom stack then why is it getting a 7? Not good should be like 6 or below. Just saying
I think he rates them as an army. Like it is a 7/10 army and 8/10 and up can be considered doomstacks
This is not a doomstack. This is waist of money stack
They need to give dread saurians a 60 or 70% missile resist.
It’s liek mutant alligators escaped zoo and attacked an army of re-enactors
I think overcasted comets would have been way better than chain lightening here
The biggest problem with the dread suarian is not the fact that they are large but the fact that their geometry is more stretched on the ground rather than a tall creature like giants!!
Dread suarian body is tall too but the tallness applies in the wrong direction
This will make it a very big target with a massive hit box for the melee troops and that's why these guys getting beaten in melee almost more that any other monster in the game
I'm very sad to see this. I mean, its a cool video, you rock dude, you give a cool representation, and comment on what is happening, but the way how Saurians are just meh.
I know this ia a year old video, but i do consider doing a Saurian doomstack, to check how they perform now.
Altho i allways felt Saurians a little weak how expensive they are. Like, a Khana-something you know the anti-large Hydra, can 1v1 one of theese.
They should have much more health and some resisteances, cuz they pop like a ballooon.
Well we have some mods for them sooooo I'll try them out i guess XD
Also the reason why I LIKE MORE the FERAL version of theese guys, because you can hear the Saurian instead of a stupid agressive gekko. So dumb.
A real dino doomstack involves 2 stegs, maybe 2 ancient stegs, and then just Carnosaurs. Dread Sauriens are more a support monster, send them in with 2-3 carno's just for their ranged attack to mop up the numbers.
Otherwise they're not great. Carnosaur doomstack is always best (especially with Kroq Gar).
Sooo, just want to say, that it is NOT a Dread-Saurian Doomstack.
Because IMO they work a lot different than all other Doomstacks, due to the fact that you will only be able to really generate one of them.
This means your composition needs to be different.
A good Dreadsaurian Doomstack would be: Life Slan, Kroak, Starchamber guardians to protect those, shredder, rest dread saurian.
You will shred everything, with double ward save and Kroak.
Legend, are these even a good unit? They get torn to shreds by even low tier ranged, even more so by guns, their attacks suffer from huge accuracy issues due to their gank animations... I just don't see any situation where these are useful, unlike something like a Rogue Idol that can at least hold its ground.
pretty much no, lizardmen have way better units, they're just fun for the cool factor and that's about it. Technically, they're probably ok vs the vampire counts due to no ranged, but still not great.
It seems to me that a dread saurian is something you put one of in a chalk army.
What is a chalk army
id like to know what a chalk army is too
I think by basic design, Dread Saurian doomstacks can't work since they are pretty much only good when being supported. It's incredibly difficult to get a lot of mileage out of your dread saurian and other dread saurians don't really help to much in getting that extra mileage given how their animations make them naturally veer away from each other. When you compare it to a Feral Stegadon or an Ancient Stegadon, they do dramatically better than Dread Saurians at evened out price points without support. If anything, they are more like Kroxigors than other dinosaurs.
Since the Dread Saurian is basically a supersized alligator, like the Kroxigors, they have very high weapon strength but low melee defense. They can dish out the damage, but they take way too much damage as well. The 15% missile resistance is also too small to be of significance against the massive, ranged damage the dread saurian will take. That being said, buffing both melee defense and missile resistance provides tremendous gains.
Buffing melee defense or reducing the enemies' melee attack creates some immediate gains. Letting the Dread Saurian fight just a few seconds longer in melee substantially increases the value you obtain. Dread Saurians must chomp on many expensive to get its money's worth so since it's inevitable that they need to melee against painful enemies, it is always worth increasing melee durability.
Missile resistance may not be a guarantee since their ranged game is a lot less effective, it's typically just firing in during melee like an Arachnarok Spider, they still are a prime target for a dramatically large amount of missile fire which even the most heinous rounds like Luminarks can easily land. Fortunately, while 15% missile strength is low, there are abilities like the Shield of the Old Ones from Slann and the Shield of Chaqua from the saurus spearman regiment which provide 20-40% ward save and 40% missile resistance. A single cast of one of the 40% barriers can increase the Dread Saurian's durability against missiles by +89% with two casts granting a ridiculous +750% durability against missiles since it reaches the 90% cap.
Beyond that, Fatigue is also a legitimate concern since all the stats related to Fatigue reduces the good melee striking power Dread Saurians are known for and the reloading time for the tamed variants. A Life Slann makes this easy to manage at least.
All in all, Dread Saurians are basically too high maintenance to work well as a doomstack. Doomstacks are only good with units that are powerful with low maintenance, which is why the normal artillery Stegadon is so effective. It just sits there and blows its load on them until they come in to throw hands. You need to put in all the effort to protect the Dread Saurian, so you don't eat shit since so much money is dumped into it and basic healing isn't good enough to do that. Though it is ultimately worth it since it is good at chunking tremendous amounts of health quickly in melee by default, which poses a real threat to most of the elite duelist units.
I agree with many of the points Ledged made that Stegadons were better. I also agree that doomstacks should be rated on how they can handle 60 units vs 20 (or 57 vs 19, 54 vs 18, 51 vs 17, or 20 + very beat up garrison that adds up to 1 unit vs 69...). Anything that uses lightning strike, it can be a good army, but not a doomstack. The third thing I agree with him is that leaving the poor guy on foot was silly. But I think the statement he made at 3:23 regarding shooting and withdrawing is missing the point. It's what I'd do if I was caught with bad odds, just shoot and fight two battles. But the ability to win over two fights is not what one should consider when making an army. If one army facing really bad odds won 75% of the time, took "good" defeats 20% of the time (just shoot them and bailing), got outright defeated 5% of the time and the other army won 80% of the time and any time it was defeated it was catastrophic, the first army is much better for single player. Being able to shoot with Stegadons and then charge in is something I'd consider in building my army. Being able to shoot and run with my army's tail between their legs is not something that should even go into army construction thoughts, even if it is something to be considered on the battlefield.
Dread Saurians are the worst unit on the Lizardmen roster and one of the worst non-cav units in the game.
10/10 army. havent even watched the video but the doomstack is S-tier automatically if it includes the big lizard bois.
These are NOT the lore beasts they were supposed to be :'(
Fuck doomstacks, it kills fun. Try SWO Grimhammer, with elite units restrictions, its great.
Look to the stars bois!
I really like the dreads but yeah no they don't work as a full army, in all honesty they are more a great reserve unit. I keep them back and it either forces my opponent to approach hoping to snipe it, or it means they accept that they can't get a shot right now. If they charge it with cavalry then first off the cavalry isn't going into my infantry or missiles, and second... yeah dready will eat them up unless they are maybe demi knights with halberds. Once my infantry has tied down theirs and hopefully started to pressure the missiles of my enemy, dready comes in, cycle charging through my own front, staying for a bit, and then moving to safety behind my lines. Works great for me as I also love bringing melee heroes and lords, so dready is just another threat to the enemy lord
Bigger does not always equal better. I could totally see carnosaurs performing much better.
Yeap, 8 thunderers, 5-6 ironbreakers and the rest in engineers and I would melt that doomstack.
Play starsnik, spam night goblins, ignore any orcs, boom, you win.
Is this another case where defeat is actually a win...?
Ya bro, the whole point of this badboy build is to win auto resolves, it's gotta be it LOL
No mount or items on wizard
Army can't win the battle and takes massive losses
Twice as much upkeep as other armies
Can only get when you own half the world.
...7/10
How about 3/10. I think you are forgetting to use the bottom of your range.
such an unnecessary amount of strength all in one place
they didn't even have the shredder of Lustria
This army may become viable after healing becomes a % in WH3
Wait, I thought you could have only one dread saurian per army ?
There are no army limits for specific units
Dread saurians are allowed by a tier 5 building which allows 1 per building.
You can only have one Dread Saurian and Feral Dread Saurian per building that can recruit them.
@@Omenowl In Grimhammer maybe but not vanilla. In vanilla you can have an unlimited amount of any ordinary units
Edit: Just looked and there IS a cap on Dread Saurians, but that's just a cap of the maximum amount, not the amount allowed in armies.
Nope 1 of each per t5 settlement
Roman Pleb Doomstack when?
A stegodon skink priest army would be scary
ok legend i hear what you are saying but think of it like this... big boys
im suprise that he didnt use this doomstack in the last defenders faction with Kroq-Gar as the lord , the faction itself reduces the upkeep cost by - 10% and if they are in kroq-gar they gain +20 armor and also +20 leadership and also with blessing of Itzl he can reduce the cost of all monsters in his army further by -20% and give them +5 leadership
or with blessing of tepok he can give units + 5% speed and magic resistance , also theres an technology that allows you to reduce the upkeep by another -10% called sequence of the beastkeepers with gives you - 40% for the upkeep.
He probably just decided to build this doomstack in his current campaign after he had pretty much already won the game since it's way easier to do when you're already rich rather than on a fresh campaign.
I just wanted to say I love your videos man, total war content is super rare on UA-cam and it's very nice to have someone dedicated to producing quality total war warhammer content.
Thank you for that and keep up the good work man
Sigmar be praised legend you are bad at casting sometimes😂
I disagree with what you said about shield of thorns. Lower the initial physical resist the more it matters. If you have 20% by default then 22% more would be double. If you had 10% default then 22% would be triple and if you had none then it would be infinitely more.
The real question is what provides better value, Earth blood or Shield of Thorns. For the same winds earth blood would provide 2,688HP. So shield of thorns needs to block more than that amount of damage to make it worth the cost.
What shows worth in resistance calculations is not how much more your ratio of physical resistance becomes, but how many more hits you actually take before you go down per additional point of resistance. See pinned comment by LoTW
How about an all Solar Engine Doomstack?
Always confuses me how people always get so much income and money what am I doing wrong 😰
You need to own a lot of provinces, the game is about being aggressive and momentum to build up.
You win battle after battle and you make them Kneel.
OH but this guy is lore friendly. DOESNT MATTER YOU BUTCHER THEM.
Only confed objectives are spared from the pain