I feel like the point of deso also reducing armor on the actual hero you're hitting also benefits your teammates, also for towers - it's hard to simulate this value tho
I think that sinergises well with the idea of ending games sooner. Because later you are just too strong and won't need that ease of taking towers anyway. I balances the tower difficulty, because just killing at midgame and doing nothing with it is useless. It also rewards a team that gets together first to fight at objectives. While if it happens later it doesn't impact as much
Well if thats the case wouldnt assault cuirass be a better choice? You provide aoe armor attack speed and minus armor which value isnt far off from that of desolator?
@@johnibot but the price is more expensive, deso can help early with +20 more damage if u got kill, i guess that help more beside ur teammate maybey make assault
Everybody mentions tower armor reduction and creeps, team mates and summoned units benefiting from deso, but nobody seems to have mentioned Roshan. Which kinda falls under the team mates benefit category, but its still good to mention separately.
Armlet + Deso is actually an old combo from DotA, also back when you had junglers. Lifestealer and Wraith King enjoy that combo, Mars players also do it occasionally. The damage you get from it is insane.
One more thing to consider about Deso is that it lowers the armor of towers and also your teammates can benefit from the minus armor especially if you have some big physical damage output.
I think another point to consider is, does your team benefit from your deso or not. If you have a high magic damage comp, then having a deso is less impactful overall. Vs a heavy phys damage team. Because deso applies a debuff, that means any other phys hero is also going to get that 25% damage boost. Where as dade only gives YOU more damage.
I think deso is overall more usefull and versitiel item than daedalus. More hereos are buying deso, and some others that can situationally buy it. Like for example u don't see deso fairly offten on Snipee, Lina, Prophet carrys, but can still be really usefull on them. Also I know it was meta eralier after blink bm bkbk to go deso on LC, but as offlaner now ac is prefered item(in my oppinion at least around my bracket 4.5 k mmr deso on LC still gives me a lot of wins) I think even hereos lik Life Stealer or Monkey King can buy deso and be somewhat happy with that desition. I feel even Ursa or Slarda can be a deso carryers if needed. Overall I'd say much more impactfull item. Specially if u have armor coruption talent or AC on the team. I was beaten hard by Hoodwink mid who went for physical build instead of shard eblade. He went for deso and armor coruption talent and it was brutal. So ye, deso is deffinitly more usefull in my oppinion than daedalis, specially concidering your point that entire squad benefits from the deso effect, and daedalus is more of a selfish item.
This is exactly what I was thinking during the video. You can't say that at 11 armor or above that daedalus is better because you're not considering the debuff and other tm8s getting ~25% amp too. Overall great video but not entirely as simple as BSJ lays it out.
In todays video, bsj is just being a badass, as usual, and giving us the info we need to succeed. It’s crazy how well editing and how good your info is. Team bsj kicks ass
@@Joel2Million yes but not the trees themselves. If im nature and i split push only the trees hitting my target benifit. Not the 6 trees in the other lane.
You wanna see what your teammates have and who they are also. Like if you have venge, dazzle, slardar deso is gonna do a lot more DMG especially if you have the 20 stacks. Generally the later the game goes the worse it's gonna be
one thing regarding your calculation is that both items also give flat damage. 50 for deso and 88 for daedalus. In your damage up demonstartion it only looks at the passive effects. Daedalus costs 58.5 gold per damage (only passive damage) versus Deso's 70 gold per damage. Assuming you get max deso stacks that diminishes to 50 gold per damage. So if you can get max stack deso it is more cost efficient, which can be obtained with the earlier timing. Overal that skews the overal usability more to Daedalus (which is why you see it on more different heroes).
No idea why many other people kept saying that armor is more effective when you have more. Additional explanation to clarify the comments: - 1 point of armor gives 6% EHP increase, yes. - But going from 100 to 106% is a 6% increase from the base value (100%) - And going from 600 to 606% is a 1% increase from the base value (600%). Thus, armor is more cost effective when closer to 0.
armor is equally effective at all armor values, i think bsj made a mistake saying it's different. 1 point of armor = 6% ehp vs physical, no matter if it's the first point or the 100th
@@TZAR_POTATO that’s incorrect. Each point of armour gives diminishing returns depending on how far you are from zero. From 10 to 20 armour is a larger increase in physical resistance than from 20 to 30 is. Same works for negatives and damage amp
@@PezzaTheFlezza those diminishing returns are the thing that keeps each point equally relevant. 0% to 50% doubles yor EHP, 90% to 95% double it as well.
@@TZAR_POTATO There's a trick in math and conventions in the percentages used. It is true that you gain 6% EHP for each point of armor. HOWEVER, the metric that we're interested in is the "percentage increase of the precentage". Going from 100% to 106% EHP is better than going from 600% to 606%, because in the first case there's an increase of 6% (6%/100%), while in the second it's only 1% (6%/600%).
the thing 1 armor does -> adds 6% of hp to your physical hp. if your hp is 1000 and armor is 8(+48% phys hp) you will suck 1480 phys damage before death. so not currnt armor has to influence your decision, but hp of your target(its just general direction of thinking, dont know exact hp so deso will be better than daedalus
I think mkb is a somewhat less of a damage item and more of a "I need to deal with evasion" item. And mjollnir, while doing great damage, is more of a farming item, that's why you see so many cores rush it, but maelstrom often does the job just fine.
mkb/mjolnir is magic , daedalus/deso is physical thats pretty much obvious if u use physical damage to high phys armor then you deal less phys dmg so u go magic instead or vice versa so they are completely different and its hard to compare their average dps because you need to consider hp , magic res , armor and every hero have different stats it should be mkb vs mjolnir but even then these two is still situational items the other one is aoe and farming and the other one is for evasion
"its hard to compare their average dps because you need to consider hp , magic res , armor and every hero have different stats " exactly why I was asking that
How do you come to +37.5% dmg increase on crystalis? If you get 225% dmg with a 30% chance that should be +225*0,3=+67.5% in percent per hit over an infinite amount of hits and before armor is calculated. So crystalis alone does 88dmg*2,25 =198 when the crit occurs. This flattened out over every third hit (0.3) 198 * 0,3 equals around 60. So crystalis does 88+60=148 dmg increase on its own.
Love your content BSJ ❤️, but I'd like to point out an error in this video. TLDR: The reasoning on why deso falls of later in the game is wrong because desolator does not 'amplify' your damage, it reduces the target's effective hp, which mean it is more effective if your opponent has high health, (because effective HP scales with base HP) not low armor. Explanation: Positive armor increase *always* adds 6% *effective* HP. Effective HP is how much raw damage a target can take before dying. E.G. undying with 0 armor and 1000hp has 1000ehp (if you have 100 damage and hit him 10 times, he will die) Undying with 10 armor and 1000hp has 1600ehp (if you have 100 damage and hit him 16 times, he will die) This explains why deso damage 'amplification' is different for different armor amounts. You can think of deso as debuff removing flat 36% of your opponents hp off of their effective hp (E.G. undying with base hp of 1000, armor of 10 and ehp of 1600 losing 360 ehp when your deso debuffs him for -6 armor). For a hero with flat hp and increasing armor, the flat ehp removal will always be the same (360 for a 1000 hp undying) *but* if we look at how much ehp is removed *relative* to the max ehp, this percentage gets smaller and smaller (360 off 2000 ehp is 18%, and 360 off of 1000 hp is 36%) So the correct reasoning is this: When debating whether to buy deso or a crit, consider deso being a debuff that scales with your opponents HP instead of your own damage. Crit, on the other hand, does not care about your opponents health or armor, only your own damage. Because of this, deso does tend to fall off (opposed to crit) for cores later in the game as your own damage will likely grow (from other items and stats) faster than the opponents hp. This is the reason that BSJ's original recommendation stands and has roots in game reality. Not the 11-12 armor inflection point at which crit becomes a better buy. Thanks for reading!
Hey Editior, thanks for making the text that's easy for mobile viewers to see. Very nice. Hey BSJ, what if I'm in a game where I'm Drow Ranger and either I have an enemy with high green armor like DK or I just want to push towers, when would deso be viable on her?
I imagined that if you are able to hunt and gank supports while avoiding enemy carries, then deso would be good. Instead of looking at average enemy armor, consider the armor of your expected victims.
Hey bsj just asking im a ck main but i never built deso this time around meta wise i find myself using ck doing absolute garbage damage even with armlet shadow blade treads on mid game that's with -7 armor from rr and max crit should i try building desolator or just go for stats i went for sange and yasha one game but it didnt matter
I'll give you a straight answer for those in low brackets, please buy desolator as it melts towers and it's cheaper. It's actually a big deal to damage towers faster since people often don't even know you're hitting it, in some situations you can also take over the damn rax.
Another could be if your teammates have other armor reduce items/abilities. Solar crest, assault. Or if you have a dazzle, alch, axe they will bring the enemy armor to 11 or lower and the desolator will bring it even further. I'd like to know how very low armor affects the damage like -15 amor how good is it?
Essentially, the closer you get their armor to 0, the more efficient it is. Significantly higher or lower is generally less effective than some other item. If you're plunging their armor deep into the negatives, you'd prefer to have daedalus or butterfly. If their armor is so high you can't get it even close to zero, you'd probably rather have mkb or revenant's brooch.
I would like to hear about something else also - revenant's brooch. Yesterday game 2 SR vs Liquid. Arteezy TA played vs morph and drow and late game he realized theres no way of going through their armor. Should he buy it earlier? Is it good on non-INT hero? Is it better vs heroes with tons of armor, or is it even valuable as extention to damage items?
I was thinking about buying deso to drow, i know sounds weird and low mmr but in theory, drows ulti reduces all the white armor while deso reduces the green armor. Especially heroes like terrorblade which depends on mostly white armor it should be way too much damage with these heroes to got hit having literally minus armor. Sometimes when you have a slardar in your team you can see an extreme amount of damage like two shotting the enemy carry. Never tried in real though
Deso on drow is kinda meh because you would only have a slightly stronger "e" and you'd be left with an extra squishy drow with subpar right clicking DPS due to lack of atk speed and overall stats.
@Omvi Lya im pretty sure that bsj did not mention about drow at all and you dont buy agi items to drow to burst enemy heroes since drow already has a lot of built in agility, but you buy survivability items to drow (pike,bkb,manta,dagger) since the hero is very squishy and its hard to stick on top of targets without dying
how about juggernaut make deso? is it worth? and sometimes i feel no damage when i play spec without diffusal, when i spectated others play spectre without diffusal, they really didnt go well their spectre got ignored by enemy like natural creep, i said to them "why didnt make it diffusal?" and they said "this isn't archon, diffusal only for archon". i mean even you didnt give any shit to them, they just fking ignore u atleast u give them mana burn so they have hard time to maintain long battle.
This is probably one of my all time favorite BSJ videos. Clear, short, he seems to follow a well written script to avoid digressing and staying on point. 10/10
Keep in mind that what he said in the beginning applies to health also. Crystal Maiden with 1000 HP buys an item that gives her +500 HP. She's now 50% more tanky. Pudge with 5000 HP buys an item that gives him exactly the same +500 HP. He's now 10% more tanky.
Great video! QQs: 1. Is Drow a special case where she sort of has crits but might still benefit from a deso? And though Hoodwink isn't played as carry in the current meta, does her L20 -4 armor reduction talent mean she should consider deso over deadulus even though the daedulus would proc on each acorn hit + each right click?
Drow ulti ignores armour, so you're reducing 0 armour to -7 which means it's always inefficient, unless they have the appropriate amount of amour from + items
No offense. This is not true. If you go into negative armor you take more damage. Also, drow's ult reduces only base armor. So it doesn't reduce armor from items. Not saying drow should buy deso, just that your reasoning is incorrect.
I play a grandmaster hoodwink near exclusive carry and buying deso is a very good choice coupling with her talent. Both Daedalus and deso help with her acorn shot but deso synergises very well with her acorn shot and her talent, gleipner and deso are core on her if your carrying IMO and buy Daedalus later on
@@damonruetama8126 While negative armor is impactful, it is generally still inefficient. I think the main reason Drow doesn't buy deso is because she's in category #2 of passive-based heroes, where her abilities allow her to deal massive damage on their own, making it more about building to prevent enemies from locking you down. Making sure her ult doesn't get canceled is far more damage than any damage item she could buy.
Herald here. Can someone explain to me the built in crit part? I read that if you have 2 sources of crits, both get rolled while hitting and the highest is applied if both sources trigger. E.g. Coupe de grace and daedulus. So wouldn't that be benificial?
Man great video like always , you do explain things in a very good way !Only thing that i was thinking and you didn't mention is CK , he has build in crit , but also has illusions and let we dont forget he has build in -armor in his W, so what about CK? I think he is a very good deso and AC carrier, can you approve that?
I play LC a lot and I always buy deso after blink and BM. Eventhough you didn't mention LC here, I believe LC is also a hero who benifits from having a deso because of her duel. But recently I have seen that I can not duel a pudge with a aghs in the late game even if I have a deso. Any advice on my commen. And I play around 1k-2k mmr brackets.
First of all, dont duel pudge late game with aghs. The target for LC Duels should always be either the high physical dps carries or annoying backline supports. Specially at the bracket you are at, you will get most out of LC by being a backline assassin
@@knoxville6155 if you dont duel pudge he can save his allies with shard, but late game depends on how much items and damage you have if you can solo kill pudge
This video is misleading. The increase to effective HP with each point of armor is the same at every (positive) point. Armor reduction has the same effect on a 30 armor target as on a 10 armor target in terms of time to kill. It's simply a constant reduction of the person's effective HP, for example (assuming positive values): EHP - basehp*armorpen*0.06.
Saying that armor gives diminishing returns is deeply misleading. It eventually becomes a poor choice to buy more armor, but that's not the same thing. It eventually becomes a poor choice to buy more HP as well, but we don't say that HP gives "diminishing returns." Every point of positive armor provides just as much physical EHP as the last point--specifically, it adds 6% of your HP to your EHP. So if you have 0 armor and 1000 HP, you have 1000 physical EHP. If you gain 1 armor, you now have 1060 physical EHP. Gain another you're at 1120. And even at 100 armor, you're up to 7000 EHP, and each point still gives another 60. (For negative values, it is genuinely different though.) It is therefore also not true that the Desolator effect has diminishing returns. But didn't the numbers in this video prove otherwise? Not really, think about how it works. Normally, when you attack, you subtract an amount of EHP from the target every hit. But Desolator's orb effect does not do this. Instead, it subtracts an amount on the first hit, and then never subtracts it again. The effect of one good swing is diluted as the opponent has increasingly more HP. This is similar to the effect of Shadow Blade. The 175 opening backstab damage means a lot in the early game, but later on, it's almost irrelevant. It's not that the 175 damage has "diminished" in some way, it's just that you only get the effect once, and it's no longer a good enough effect. By comparison, a Daedalus multiplies your damage on every hit. Therefore, it not only scales with your damage but also with your opponent's EHP, because the more they have, the more times you will need to attack them before killing them, and thus the more chances your Daedalus has to proc. TL;DR Armor and Desolator have "diminishing returns" only in the same way that HP and Dagon have "diminishing returns," which is to say they don't. It is not like stacking two crits, where the benefits do indeed diminish.
man doesnt know how exponential functions work. of course minus armor on higher armor target gives less damage amp if each armor point gives less and less damage reduction. deso's efficiency isn't affected by target's armor
Be better than them, they are slow farmers and slow walk heroes in early. So if you play invoker or leshrac. Or heroes that push faster and end the game much better
minus armor is for your whole team, and is better when you have phys damage lineups. BSJ looking at it from a solo play perspective, which I guess is right for low MMR ( う-´)づ︻╦̵̵̿╤──
armor does not get less impactful as you described if opponent has 100 damage and you have 0 armor you will take 100 damage and you have 1000 hp then it takes 10 hits to kill you, but if you buy 10 armor then enemies need to hit you 6 times more, and if you have 20 armor then you will survive 10+6+6=22 hits, and if you have 30 then it requires 6 more hits and so on. It just appears to be less effective in percentages, but in reality it is different. Some people do not realise that having 96% physical resistance and 98% is very huge you are actually 2 times tankier.
In a game you're snowballing, get deso. In a game your losing, get daed. This is if your hero is a deso carrier. Too many people build deso, there are other clutch items in your game.
>Armor is more impactful l if you have less of it. No, it is not. It's a common misconception. To understand this you should try to count effective HP. So yeah, this whole video is wrong.
So most agi heroes don't buy deso since agi items like manta or S&Y are just more cost effective since they give you attack speed AND damage (and a lot of armour which helps man fighting the enemy carry). Also most agi heroe's have attack speed based steroids (faceless E, Sniper W, AM Q), agi is the way to go. So other than like PA or TA, heroes that buy deso are usually strength heroes. But usually armlet is better, basically a couple heroes buy deso, for most there's usually better options. Daedelus is only worth quite late into the game, and it's usually most bought on heroes with damage steroids like Sven, Kunkka or Tiny. You can buy it as an agi hero but MKB or butterfly will probably serve you better honestly.
This is a common myth I gave up explaining on reddit xD.I'll give it one more try. Imagine a hero having 1000hp and 1000 armor (it's easier to visualise the effect with exagerated numbers). This is equivalent to ~98% damage reduction. So if you hit him with 100 damage, you actually hit for 2 damage. Now, if the target has the deso debuff, the damage reduction (surprise, surprise) is still around 98%. You will still hit for 2. At this point, it's obviously better to buy a maelstrom, since armor reduction does (almost) nothing. You are correct with the effective hp, but there is not point to hit 500 times vs 499 times to kill someone, instead of buying magic damage. Please tell me it makes sense.
You're technically right but the perspective you're looking at this from is incorrect. Say you have a hero with 1000 HP and 0 armor, that's 1000 EHP. You add 1 armor and your EHP increases by 6% to 1060. But what happens when you add another point of armor? Your EHP goes from 1060 to 1120, which isn't a 6% increase anymore, but 5.66%. Add another point and you go from 1120 to 1180, this time a 5.35% increase. So each point of armor increases your EHP by 6%, but that increas is _from your base HP_ , not from your EHP. This is an important distinction because it means that the % increase in EHP diminishes with every armor point you gain. Let's demonstrate this with items: how can our hero increase his physical EHP? Well he can get platemails or vitality boosters. 1 platemail increases his EHP to 1000 + (60% * 1600) = 1600. 1 vitality booster increases his EHP to 1250 directly. Clearly platemail is better here. But what if he's a richboi and buys 6 platemails? EHP increases to 1000HP + (360% * 1000HP) = 4600 HP. Now what if instead of 6 platemails he gets 5 platemails and a vitality booster? His EHP goes to 1250HP + (300% * 1250HP) = 5000 HP, so we reached the point where raw HP is more valuable. PLUS vitality booster is cheaper, PLUS raw HP protects him against all damage types which is also useful. - - - Obviously getting 6 platemails on any hero is dumb, so let's take a real life example, like a lvl 25 terrorblade: He's got 1336HP and 27 armor, which is 1336 + (162% * 1336) = 3500 physical EHP. If he adds a platemail his EHP goes to 1336 + (222% * 1336) = 4302. But if he gets a vitality booster instead his EHP goes to 1586 + (162 * 1586) = 4155. That's a mere 150 difference in EHP while vitality booster is 28% cheaper, and also gives raw HP which protects against all damage types. To add to that, this is without any other items. Terrorblade will get a LOT of agility in items, and I'm too lazy to make the calculations but I'd bet that the physical EHP gain from the vitality booster will be roughly equal to armor. Hope it makes sense.
I know the effect from every possible perspective, yours is harder to grasp for someone with less education. I tried one more time to explain this with the most obvious example. My perspective is correct, I did not say anything false. The values for reduction are done using the correct formula (0.06*Armor)/(1+0.06*Armor), which demonstrates there is no point in buying armor reduction. Yeah, you can say the scenario is not realistic, but since most of the functions irl are continuous (such is armor stacking), I like taking extreme parameters to show certain effects. Please let me know how my perspective is wrong xD
This is absolutely wrong and irresponsible extrapolation. You should make a spreadsheet about this. Each point of armor gives a constant effective hp from physical damage. The graph is linear effectiveHp/armor. Increasing armor only looks like deminishing return because the physical resistance (%) positively deminishes as u keep adding armor but it gives constant effective hp. You should look it up.
At the end of the day pushing wins games, not mentioning deso lowering tower armor in a what damage item to buy video is basically a dota crime, especially from a player of your level, when I was creating teams and shot calling I would make sure we had a deso AC for pushing almost every game if we were playing serious, same with meky, pipe, and rad, items that help the team are a fundamental part of this team game. But but you don't know what your talking about because BSJ told me if the enemies have 11 or more armor or the game is longer than 25 mins buying daedalus is more cost efficient for the damage, facepalm dota is a complex game that many want to try and boil down to efficiency and drop key elements in doing so, generally those key elements are team related and generally the lens of efficiency is that of a solo player, the number one example of this concept is farming efficiency vs teamwork specifically team fighting, are you in the jungle on AM as your team fights a 4v5? Did your team die without your presence to make a proper 5v5? Were those jungle creeps more farm exp/gold than your team gave by dying? Can you defend the T2 or T3 solo as AM now that your team is dead? Back to the main topic, the short story is deso is a lot better of an item than this video's breakdown would have you believe it is, useful all the way to destroying the ancient and winning the game, even if that is done 60 mins+.
Another time you want buy deso is when opponents are all died and you have like 50 seconds to end the game.
Nah that’s when you buy Dagon
@@TheDominionOfElites do u want to dagon towers lol
@@TheDominionOfElites I think you're wrong. You should buy full slot tangos and deforestation their base
Drum if dont have enough gold for deso✌
its mantle time wdym
I feel like the point of deso also reducing armor on the actual hero you're hitting also benefits your teammates, also for towers - it's hard to simulate this value tho
i think thats the best part about deso the tower dmg
I think that sinergises well with the idea of ending games sooner. Because later you are just too strong and won't need that ease of taking towers anyway. I balances the tower difficulty, because just killing at midgame and doing nothing with it is useless.
It also rewards a team that gets together first to fight at objectives. While if it happens later it doesn't impact as much
Well if thats the case wouldnt assault cuirass be a better choice? You provide aoe armor attack speed and minus armor which value isnt far off from that of desolator?
@@johnibot but the price is more expensive, deso can help early with +20 more damage if u got kill, i guess that help more beside ur teammate maybey make assault
If u dont win the fight then you wont be able to push towers.
Everybody mentions tower armor reduction and creeps, team mates and summoned units benefiting from deso, but nobody seems to have mentioned Roshan. Which kinda falls under the team mates benefit category, but its still good to mention separately.
Armlet + Deso is actually an old combo from DotA, also back when you had junglers. Lifestealer and Wraith King enjoy that combo, Mars players also do it occasionally. The damage you get from it is insane.
There are few things in Dota so satisfying as blowing up an enemy hero with a couple of big fat armlet + deso Wraith King crits.
One more thing to consider about Deso is that it lowers the armor of towers and also your teammates can benefit from the minus armor especially if you have some big physical damage output.
Nice for Natures prophet
I think another point to consider is, does your team benefit from your deso or not. If you have a high magic damage comp, then having a deso is less impactful overall. Vs a heavy phys damage team. Because deso applies a debuff, that means any other phys hero is also going to get that 25% damage boost. Where as dade only gives YOU more damage.
I think deso is overall more usefull and versitiel item than daedalus. More hereos are buying deso, and some others that can situationally buy it. Like for example u don't see deso fairly offten on Snipee, Lina, Prophet carrys, but can still be really usefull on them. Also I know it was meta eralier after blink bm bkbk to go deso on LC, but as offlaner now ac is prefered item(in my oppinion at least around my bracket 4.5 k mmr deso on LC still gives me a lot of wins) I think even hereos lik Life Stealer or Monkey King can buy deso and be somewhat happy with that desition. I feel even Ursa or Slarda can be a deso carryers if needed. Overall I'd say much more impactfull item. Specially if u have armor coruption talent or AC on the team. I was beaten hard by Hoodwink mid who went for physical build instead of shard eblade. He went for deso and armor coruption talent and it was brutal. So ye, deso is deffinitly more usefull in my oppinion than daedalis, specially concidering your point that entire squad benefits from the deso effect, and daedalus is more of a selfish item.
This is exactly what I was thinking during the video. You can't say that at 11 armor or above that daedalus is better because you're not considering the debuff and other tm8s getting ~25% amp too.
Overall great video but not entirely as simple as BSJ lays it out.
In todays video, bsj is just being a badass, as usual, and giving us the info we need to succeed. It’s crazy how well editing and how good your info is. Team bsj kicks ass
Another thing to consider is that pushing heroes like NP like deso for their summons/creeps hitting towers.
ur probably griefing buying deso on np this patch
@@lxrd5238 first item? yes. but after orchid bkb it seems fine to me. admittedly I play zero NP and watch zero NP so I am only guessing.
deso doenst work on summons/creeps! Natures trees get no benifit from deso.
@@spudnic5849 you're mistaken, deso reduces the armour of the target thus the trees and creeps do more damage to towers
@@Joel2Million yes but not the trees themselves. If im nature and i split push only the trees hitting my target benifit. Not the 6 trees in the other lane.
Also Deso debuff on building is situational if you lack push, can't crit on buildings.
You wanna see what your teammates have and who they are also. Like if you have venge, dazzle, slardar deso is gonna do a lot more DMG especially if you have the 20 stacks. Generally the later the game goes the worse it's gonna be
one thing regarding your calculation is that both items also give flat damage. 50 for deso and 88 for daedalus. In your damage up demonstartion it only looks at the passive effects. Daedalus costs 58.5 gold per damage (only passive damage) versus Deso's 70 gold per damage. Assuming you get max deso stacks that diminishes to 50 gold per damage. So if you can get max stack deso it is more cost efficient, which can be obtained with the earlier timing. Overal that skews the overal usability more to Daedalus (which is why you see it on more different heroes).
Sometimes it's also good to buy deso on heroes that can apply the debuff on multiple targets at once, like Tide, Mars, Dawn...
I love this video series, this is the hard stuff that sometimes no one tells you about. I would love to see a video for auras o support items
No idea why many other people kept saying that armor is more effective when you have more.
Additional explanation to clarify the comments:
- 1 point of armor gives 6% EHP increase, yes.
- But going from 100 to 106% is a 6% increase from the base value (100%)
- And going from 600 to 606% is a 1% increase from the base value (600%).
Thus, armor is more cost effective when closer to 0.
armor is equally effective at all armor values, i think bsj made a mistake saying it's different. 1 point of armor = 6% ehp vs physical, no matter if it's the first point or the 100th
@TZAR POTATO No... BSJ was correct. If you were right, then it would only take 17 armor to have 100% physical damage resistance...
@@TZAR_POTATO that’s incorrect. Each point of armour gives diminishing returns depending on how far you are from zero. From 10 to 20 armour is a larger increase in physical resistance than from 20 to 30 is. Same works for negatives and damage amp
@@PezzaTheFlezza those diminishing returns are the thing that keeps each point equally relevant. 0% to 50% doubles yor EHP, 90% to 95% double it as well.
@@TZAR_POTATO There's a trick in math and conventions in the percentages used. It is true that you gain 6% EHP for each point of armor. HOWEVER, the metric that we're interested in is the "percentage increase of the precentage". Going from 100% to 106% EHP is better than going from 600% to 606%, because in the first case there's an increase of 6% (6%/100%), while in the second it's only 1% (6%/600%).
the thing 1 armor does -> adds 6% of hp to your physical hp.
if your hp is 1000 and armor is 8(+48% phys hp)
you will suck 1480 phys damage before death.
so not currnt armor has to influence your decision, but hp of your target(its just general direction of thinking, dont know exact hp so deso will be better than daedalus
Some maths against when to buy mkb (or mjollnir) instead of daedalus/deso would have also been nice
I think mkb is a somewhat less of a damage item and more of a "I need to deal with evasion" item. And mjollnir, while doing great damage, is more of a farming item, that's why you see so many cores rush it, but maelstrom often does the job just fine.
@@lu2nam821 against high armor targets (for example TB or Morph), i bet my ass that mkb or mjollnir boost your dps much more than daedalus
mkb/mjolnir is magic , daedalus/deso is physical thats pretty much obvious
if u use physical damage to high phys armor then you deal less phys dmg so u go magic instead or vice versa
so they are completely different and its hard to compare their average dps because you need to consider hp , magic res , armor and every hero have different stats
it should be mkb vs mjolnir but even then these two is still situational items the other one is aoe and farming and the other one is for evasion
"its hard to compare their average dps because you need to consider hp , magic res , armor and every hero have different stats " exactly why I was asking that
How do you come to +37.5% dmg increase on crystalis? If you get 225% dmg with a 30% chance that should be +225*0,3=+67.5% in percent per hit over an infinite amount of hits and before armor is calculated. So crystalis alone does 88dmg*2,25 =198 when the crit occurs. This flattened out over every third hit (0.3) 198 * 0,3 equals around 60. So crystalis does 88+60=148 dmg increase on its own.
your calculation is wrong. it doesn't 225% on crit, which mean 125% BONUS per crit, 125 * 0.3 = 37.5 % bonus damage
That's really cool that you're letting Purge write videos for you now
Deso also benefits your teammates hitting the same hero and also works on buildings
Love your content BSJ ❤️, but I'd like to point out an error in this video.
TLDR: The reasoning on why deso falls of later in the game is wrong because desolator does not 'amplify' your damage, it reduces the target's effective hp, which mean it is more effective if your opponent has high health, (because effective HP scales with base HP) not low armor.
Explanation:
Positive armor increase *always* adds 6% *effective* HP.
Effective HP is how much raw damage a target can take before dying.
E.G. undying with 0 armor and 1000hp has 1000ehp (if you have 100 damage and hit him 10 times, he will die)
Undying with 10 armor and 1000hp has 1600ehp (if you have 100 damage and hit him 16 times, he will die)
This explains why deso damage 'amplification' is different for different armor amounts.
You can think of deso as debuff removing flat 36% of your opponents hp off of their effective hp (E.G. undying with base hp of 1000, armor of 10 and ehp of 1600 losing 360 ehp when your deso debuffs him for -6 armor). For a hero with flat hp and increasing armor, the flat ehp removal will always be the same (360 for a 1000 hp undying) *but* if we look at how much ehp is removed *relative* to the max ehp, this percentage gets smaller and smaller (360 off 2000 ehp is 18%, and 360 off of 1000 hp is 36%)
So the correct reasoning is this:
When debating whether to buy deso or a crit, consider deso being a debuff that scales with your opponents HP instead of your own damage. Crit, on the other hand, does not care about your opponents health or armor, only your own damage.
Because of this, deso does tend to fall off (opposed to crit) for cores later in the game as your own damage will likely grow (from other items and stats) faster than the opponents hp.
This is the reason that BSJ's original recommendation stands and has roots in game reality. Not the 11-12 armor inflection point at which crit becomes a better buy.
Thanks for reading!
great video, just wondering about maelstrom and mkb?
Hey Editior, thanks for making the text that's easy for mobile viewers to see. Very nice.
Hey BSJ, what if I'm in a game where I'm Drow Ranger and either I have an enemy with high green armor like DK or I just want to push towers, when would deso be viable on her?
I love insightful videos like that! Really helps to understand dota in a deeper level.
I imagined that if you are able to hunt and gank supports while avoiding enemy carries, then deso would be good. Instead of looking at average enemy armor, consider the armor of your expected victims.
Hey bsj just asking im a ck main but i never built deso
this time around meta wise i find myself using ck doing absolute garbage damage even with armlet shadow blade treads on mid game
that's with -7 armor from rr and max crit
should i try building desolator or just go for stats
i went for sange and yasha one game but it didnt matter
I'll give you a straight answer for those in low brackets, please buy desolator as it melts towers and it's cheaper. It's actually a big deal to damage towers faster since people often don't even know you're hitting it, in some situations you can also take over the damn rax.
This video is flat out amazing. You answered 6 questions that I had in a single video. Love you BSJ!
So basically if the enemy has a lot if armor get Daedalus if low or medium get desolator
Another could be if your teammates have other armor reduce items/abilities. Solar crest, assault. Or if you have a dazzle, alch, axe they will bring the enemy armor to 11 or lower and the desolator will bring it even further. I'd like to know how very low armor affects the damage like -15 amor how good is it?
Essentially, the closer you get their armor to 0, the more efficient it is. Significantly higher or lower is generally less effective than some other item. If you're plunging their armor deep into the negatives, you'd prefer to have daedalus or butterfly. If their armor is so high you can't get it even close to zero, you'd probably rather have mkb or revenant's brooch.
I would like to hear about something else also - revenant's brooch. Yesterday game 2 SR vs Liquid.
Arteezy TA played vs morph and drow and late game he realized theres no way of going through their armor. Should he buy it earlier? Is it good on non-INT hero? Is it better vs heroes with tons of armor, or is it even valuable as extention to damage items?
as a Herald carry , I always go for Deso - BKB - Daedalus. is this a good pattern ?
do u buy deso for slardar then? blink to gap close, can chase hero, got minus armor, so do u?
Heroes with cleave like sven want crit rather than minus armor
When you mentioned that TA also get minus armour I was like oh, thats why weaver also likes it.
I was thinking about buying deso to drow, i know sounds weird and low mmr but in theory, drows ulti reduces all the white armor while deso reduces the green armor. Especially heroes like terrorblade which depends on mostly white armor it should be way too much damage with these heroes to got hit having literally minus armor. Sometimes when you have a slardar in your team you can see an extreme amount of damage like two shotting the enemy carry. Never tried in real though
Deso on drow is kinda meh because you would only have a slightly stronger "e" and you'd be left with an extra squishy drow with subpar right clicking DPS due to lack of atk speed and overall stats.
@Omvi Lya im pretty sure that bsj did not mention about drow at all and you dont buy agi items to drow to burst enemy heroes since drow already has a lot of built in agility, but you buy survivability items to drow (pike,bkb,manta,dagger) since the hero is very squishy and its hard to stick on top of targets without dying
Also, deso amps building damage for you, allows, and creeps.
how about juggernaut make deso? is it worth? and sometimes i feel no damage when i play spec without diffusal, when i spectated others play spectre without diffusal, they really didnt go well their spectre got ignored by enemy like natural creep, i said to them "why didnt make it diffusal?" and they said "this isn't archon, diffusal only for archon". i mean even you didnt give any shit to them, they just fking ignore u atleast u give them mana burn so they have hard time to maintain long battle.
deso also scales to have 20 more dmg with kills, also deso is a good late game purchase when you need to hit towers.
This is probably one of my all time favorite BSJ videos. Clear, short, he seems to follow a well written script to avoid digressing and staying on point.
10/10
is LC good to buy deso?
Keep in mind that what he said in the beginning applies to health also.
Crystal Maiden with 1000 HP buys an item that gives her +500 HP. She's now 50% more tanky.
Pudge with 5000 HP buys an item that gives him exactly the same +500 HP. He's now 10% more tanky.
Hey BSGJ,can you make one of when to buy health item or armour item (ie bracer or wraith band, etc)
i think you missed the most played carries in low mmr sniper and drow. would have liked to hear something about them.
5:00 doodoo 💩
when do i buy monkey king bar? only vs butterfly?
Great video! QQs: 1. Is Drow a special case where she sort of has crits but might still benefit from a deso? And though Hoodwink isn't played as carry in the current meta, does her L20 -4 armor reduction talent mean she should consider deso over deadulus even though the daedulus would proc on each acorn hit + each right click?
Drow ulti ignores armour, so you're reducing 0 armour to -7 which means it's always inefficient, unless they have the appropriate amount of amour from + items
@@Codec264 negative armor means bonus dmg
No offense. This is not true. If you go into negative armor you take more damage. Also, drow's ult reduces only base armor. So it doesn't reduce armor from items.
Not saying drow should buy deso, just that your reasoning is incorrect.
I play a grandmaster hoodwink near exclusive carry and buying deso is a very good choice coupling with her talent. Both Daedalus and deso help with her acorn shot but deso synergises very well with her acorn shot and her talent, gleipner and deso are core on her if your carrying IMO and buy Daedalus later on
@@damonruetama8126 While negative armor is impactful, it is generally still inefficient. I think the main reason Drow doesn't buy deso is because she's in category #2 of passive-based heroes, where her abilities allow her to deal massive damage on their own, making it more about building to prevent enemies from locking you down. Making sure her ult doesn't get canceled is far more damage than any damage item she could buy.
desolator gives additional +20 dmg wpn damage when u kill enough heroes
Herald here. Can someone explain to me the built in crit part? I read that if you have 2 sources of crits, both get rolled while hitting and the highest is applied if both sources trigger. E.g. Coupe de grace and daedulus. So wouldn't that be benificial?
Height of Coups crtical gets higher with your base damage so buying damage items benefits coup
Really liked this vid deso and deadalus have actually been kinda confusing for which to get so really like the vid :)
Man great video like always , you do explain things in a very good way !Only thing that i was thinking and you didn't mention is CK , he has build in crit , but also has illusions and let we dont forget he has build in -armor in his W, so what about CK? I think he is a very good deso and AC carrier, can you approve that?
CK doesnt need Daedalus. His crit has huge crit chance. It also has lifesteal so what CK needed is more illusions and survival Items like Heart.
Forgot about Disruptor Desolator there.
A lot of low rank games I play go long enough for Divine Rapiers to come out.
Ive been needing a video like this for a long time. thanks!
I play LC a lot and I always buy deso after blink and BM. Eventhough you didn't mention LC here, I believe LC is also a hero who benifits from having a deso because of her duel.
But recently I have seen that I can not duel a pudge with a aghs in the late game even if I have a deso.
Any advice on my commen. And I play around 1k-2k mmr brackets.
First of all, dont duel pudge late game with aghs. The target for LC Duels should always be either the high physical dps carries or annoying backline supports. Specially at the bracket you are at, you will get most out of LC by being a backline assassin
@@knoxville6155 if you dont duel pudge he can save his allies with shard, but late game depends on how much items and damage you have if you can solo kill pudge
Deso amps your allies' damage too, don't forget.
I buy deso just to hit towers because my carries usually go to jungle after getting a team wipe.
What about bonus damage from deso stacks?
Concise and clear. Thanks BSJ
Ok ok ok, hear me out...what if...Desolator+Dedalus!!!
Mindblown.
how bout manta and diffusal on PA?
Tusk mid is THE desolator enjoyer
i feel like all his educational videos are for his past teammates who are so bad, they inspire bsj to make videos
make a video on deso vs maelstrom on weaver
This video is misleading. The increase to effective HP with each point of armor is the same at every (positive) point. Armor reduction has the same effect on a 30 armor target as on a 10 armor target in terms of time to kill. It's simply a constant reduction of the person's effective HP, for example (assuming positive values): EHP - basehp*armorpen*0.06.
Saying that armor gives diminishing returns is deeply misleading. It eventually becomes a poor choice to buy more armor, but that's not the same thing. It eventually becomes a poor choice to buy more HP as well, but we don't say that HP gives "diminishing returns." Every point of positive armor provides just as much physical EHP as the last point--specifically, it adds 6% of your HP to your EHP. So if you have 0 armor and 1000 HP, you have 1000 physical EHP. If you gain 1 armor, you now have 1060 physical EHP. Gain another you're at 1120. And even at 100 armor, you're up to 7000 EHP, and each point still gives another 60. (For negative values, it is genuinely different though.)
It is therefore also not true that the Desolator effect has diminishing returns. But didn't the numbers in this video prove otherwise? Not really, think about how it works. Normally, when you attack, you subtract an amount of EHP from the target every hit. But Desolator's orb effect does not do this. Instead, it subtracts an amount on the first hit, and then never subtracts it again. The effect of one good swing is diluted as the opponent has increasingly more HP. This is similar to the effect of Shadow Blade. The 175 opening backstab damage means a lot in the early game, but later on, it's almost irrelevant. It's not that the 175 damage has "diminished" in some way, it's just that you only get the effect once, and it's no longer a good enough effect. By comparison, a Daedalus multiplies your damage on every hit. Therefore, it not only scales with your damage but also with your opponent's EHP, because the more they have, the more times you will need to attack them before killing them, and thus the more chances your Daedalus has to proc.
TL;DR Armor and Desolator have "diminishing returns" only in the same way that HP and Dagon have "diminishing returns," which is to say they don't. It is not like stacking two crits, where the benefits do indeed diminish.
I'm a little disappointed that you didn't cover deso (skadi) Juggernaut
Brilliant analysis my man
man doesnt know how exponential functions work. of course minus armor on higher armor target gives less damage amp if each armor point gives less and less damage reduction. deso's efficiency isn't affected by target's armor
damn i wanted this type of video so much thanks
Deso got 1 more pros reduce building armor.
anyhow i never build daedalus for damage , cause i dont like the item. i rather build deso or mkb.
what about MKB VS daedalus against high armor, which one is better? i`m a bit lost here, isn`t MKB is better against high armor heroes
So... Deso on Shaman with Moon Shard?
hiw can i get that testing map?
BSJ can u make a video how to deal with tinker smurfers?
Be better than them, they are slow farmers and slow walk heroes in early. So if you play invoker or leshrac. Or heroes that push faster and end the game much better
minus armor is for your whole team, and is better when you have phys damage lineups.
BSJ looking at it from a solo play perspective, which I guess is right for low MMR ( う-´)づ︻╦̵̵̿╤──
also an oversimplification because deso scales, and is better when your hero has a crit passive.
armor does not get less impactful as you described if opponent has 100 damage and you have 0 armor you will take 100 damage and you have 1000 hp then it takes 10 hits to kill you, but if you buy 10 armor then enemies need to hit you 6 times more, and if you have 20 armor then you will survive 10+6+6=22 hits, and if you have 30 then it requires 6 more hits and so on. It just appears to be less effective in percentages, but in reality it is different. Some people do not realise that having 96% physical resistance and 98% is very huge you are actually 2 times tankier.
thank you bsj, very informative!
Nice haircut bsj. Super clean
In a game you're snowballing, get deso.
In a game your losing, get daed.
This is if your hero is a deso carrier.
Too many people build deso, there are other clutch items in your game.
Why the heck we dont buy deso for jugg again?
what about my sniper hero. i buy all damage items just in case.
Meanwhile SEA players:
WHY NOT BOTH
Perfect thoughts! Thank you
They what? They doo doo
>Armor is more impactful l if you have less of it.
No, it is not. It's a common misconception. To understand this you should try to count effective HP.
So yeah, this whole video is wrong.
bsj looking good today
He is somehow better than my physics teacher.
shout outs to enemy Sven when i do end up playing heroes who would consider buying Deso
WOW. i never think that way. i just say ok whats my mood today.. ok deso mood today
Thats mean we can buy deso with jug and drow
So most agi heroes don't buy deso since agi items like manta or S&Y are just more cost effective since they give you attack speed AND damage (and a lot of armour which helps man fighting the enemy carry). Also most agi heroe's have attack speed based steroids (faceless E, Sniper W, AM Q), agi is the way to go.
So other than like PA or TA, heroes that buy deso are usually strength heroes. But usually armlet is better, basically a couple heroes buy deso, for most there's usually better options. Daedelus is only worth quite late into the game, and it's usually most bought on heroes with damage steroids like Sven, Kunkka or Tiny. You can buy it as an agi hero but MKB or butterfly will probably serve you better honestly.
thank you very much BSJ!
Don't you get like 6% effective HP for every armor point? Armor doesn't lose value the more you have it, it's linear afaik
This is a common myth I gave up explaining on reddit xD.I'll give it one more try. Imagine a hero having 1000hp and 1000 armor (it's easier to visualise the effect with exagerated numbers). This is equivalent to ~98% damage reduction. So if you hit him with 100 damage, you actually hit for 2 damage. Now, if the target has the deso debuff, the damage reduction (surprise, surprise) is still around 98%. You will still hit for 2. At this point, it's obviously better to buy a maelstrom, since armor reduction does (almost) nothing. You are correct with the effective hp, but there is not point to hit 500 times vs 499 times to kill someone, instead of buying magic damage.
Please tell me it makes sense.
You're technically right but the perspective you're looking at this from is incorrect.
Say you have a hero with 1000 HP and 0 armor, that's 1000 EHP.
You add 1 armor and your EHP increases by 6% to 1060.
But what happens when you add another point of armor? Your EHP goes from 1060 to 1120, which isn't a 6% increase anymore, but 5.66%.
Add another point and you go from 1120 to 1180, this time a 5.35% increase.
So each point of armor increases your EHP by 6%, but that increas is _from your base HP_ , not from your EHP. This is an important distinction because it means that the % increase in EHP diminishes with every armor point you gain.
Let's demonstrate this with items: how can our hero increase his physical EHP? Well he can get platemails or vitality boosters.
1 platemail increases his EHP to 1000 + (60% * 1600) = 1600.
1 vitality booster increases his EHP to 1250 directly. Clearly platemail is better here.
But what if he's a richboi and buys 6 platemails? EHP increases to 1000HP + (360% * 1000HP) = 4600 HP.
Now what if instead of 6 platemails he gets 5 platemails and a vitality booster? His EHP goes to 1250HP + (300% * 1250HP) = 5000 HP, so we reached the point where raw HP is more valuable. PLUS vitality booster is cheaper, PLUS raw HP protects him against all damage types which is also useful.
- - -
Obviously getting 6 platemails on any hero is dumb, so let's take a real life example, like a lvl 25 terrorblade:
He's got 1336HP and 27 armor, which is 1336 + (162% * 1336) = 3500 physical EHP.
If he adds a platemail his EHP goes to 1336 + (222% * 1336) = 4302.
But if he gets a vitality booster instead his EHP goes to 1586 + (162 * 1586) = 4155.
That's a mere 150 difference in EHP while vitality booster is 28% cheaper, and also gives raw HP which protects against all damage types.
To add to that, this is without any other items. Terrorblade will get a LOT of agility in items, and I'm too lazy to make the calculations but I'd bet that the physical EHP gain from the vitality booster will be roughly equal to armor.
Hope it makes sense.
I know the effect from every possible perspective, yours is harder to grasp for someone with less education. I tried one more time to explain this with the most obvious example. My perspective is correct, I did not say anything false. The values for reduction are done using the correct formula (0.06*Armor)/(1+0.06*Armor), which demonstrates there is no point in buying armor reduction. Yeah, you can say the scenario is not realistic, but since most of the functions irl are continuous (such is armor stacking), I like taking extreme parameters to show certain effects.
Please let me know how my perspective is wrong xD
@@dragoscalinescu7845 was replying to op, not you.
This is absolutely wrong and irresponsible extrapolation. You should make a spreadsheet about this. Each point of armor gives a constant effective hp from physical damage. The graph is linear effectiveHp/armor.
Increasing armor only looks like deminishing return because the physical resistance (%) positively deminishes as u keep adding armor but it gives constant effective hp. You should look it up.
Why no one buys deso on jugg nowadays? He wants to 2,3 shots u with ult and has crit...
Nerd.
Dont get me wrong. Getting called Nerd is the best thing playing dota.
At the end of the day pushing wins games, not mentioning deso lowering tower armor in a what damage item to buy video is basically a dota crime, especially from a player of your level, when I was creating teams and shot calling I would make sure we had a deso AC for pushing almost every game if we were playing serious, same with meky, pipe, and rad, items that help the team are a fundamental part of this team game. But but you don't know what your talking about because BSJ told me if the enemies have 11 or more armor or the game is longer than 25 mins buying daedalus is more cost efficient for the damage, facepalm dota is a complex game that many want to try and boil down to efficiency and drop key elements in doing so, generally those key elements are team related and generally the lens of efficiency is that of a solo player, the number one example of this concept is farming efficiency vs teamwork specifically team fighting, are you in the jungle on AM as your team fights a 4v5? Did your team die without your presence to make a proper 5v5? Were those jungle creeps more farm exp/gold than your team gave by dying? Can you defend the T2 or T3 solo as AM now that your team is dead? Back to the main topic, the short story is deso is a lot better of an item than this video's breakdown would have you believe it is, useful all the way to destroying the ancient and winning the game, even if that is done 60 mins+.
its true. i have no idea how to buy deso
Absolutely agree