In case you need additional empirical data from the wild: today I picked up a recently auctioned V30 dated April 2021 with cone stamp Z15 and compared it against my other V30 dated October 2015 with cone R27. Result: I can confirm your hypothesis!!! Thank you for all the effort you put into this. I hope Celestion offer you a job as chief V30 design engineer 😉.
Nice, Ive just tried using the parametric eq in my multi floor pedal, which resolves this V30 difference nicely. Went from the new harsh kssssss to the 2000's shushhhh just like that.
I have an old Marshall Studio 15 from ‘86. First amp ever to sport the V30. In fact, Marshall commissioned Celestion to engineer a new speaker specifically for this amp, and the result was the Vintage 30. Sounds better with a 2011 Chinese V30 (25th Anniversary edition) than with the original imo.
i've sent some of your videos on the v30s to musician friends. baffles me how you only have so few subscribers. the info you provide is so useful and valuable to every rock & metal guitarist, and recording engineers.
Thanks for the kind words and sharing my videos! That means an awful lot to me! Considering that I've only been uploading videos consistently for about a year, I'm quite content with the way the channel has grown but it's flattering to read that people think it should be bigger 🙂
The wealth of information you provide never ceases to amaze me. Also one just has to appreciate the production value leaps this year! Cheers man! Hope the speaker break in happens before the neighbours want a word ;)
Hi John, thank you for the fantastic video and all of the hard work you have put into doing this research. I have thoroughly enjoyed following you along this journey. I am currently refurbishing an early 2000's mesa oversized cabinet that the previous owner had replaced the v30's in. Today I recieved a new UK V30 from Mesa Boogie ( ordered in October 2023) with a November 2021 build date and 29A batch code. I am looking forward to conducting my own comparison to see how they differ from the 2001-2003 celestions in my other cabinets.
Another very informative video. I have a couple of "rarer" Celestion speakers: the V60 which I think is only found in ENGL standard cabinets and some Rola/Celestion G-12 75 watt from the early 80's
The science that you put behind this obsession is okay with me! I dig this kind of crap, er ah, stuff! It would be awesome if Celestion provided the @5K freq and db sheet for their speakers up front. Perhaps it would give a potential savvy buyer an informed option.
Is there a way for me to buy you a cup of coffee or something via UA-cam? I really appreciate the reasonable approach. Idk anything hardly about speaker break in. I have to wonder if pink/white noise or a sequenced playlist of full-band mixes might stress each speaker the same (but differently than chugs from a single guitar) if it stresses it differently maybe it would loosen it differently. If indeed there are measurable changes in a speaker with break-in, it might be harder to see any breakin if the maximum duration of breakin procedure is unknown. Like maybe it takes 5 hours instead of 4? Idk. To what extent does the stiffness of the cabinetry affect the duration or efficacy of any break in procedure, like trying to engage a stomp box over padded carpet vs stepping on a switch over concrete. Or running in sand?
You raise a lot of interesting questions. I would assume that different audio sources could affect break in differently. I've read of quite a few people using white/pink noise or sine waves to break in speakers. However, in a video on Kohlekellers channel Ignacio from Jensen Speakers advised against such approaches, as the permanent excitement of the voice coil in those approaches may cause it to overheat and burn out. Hence I chose the more "natural" approach of playing guitar through the speaker despite the fact that the load the speaker will see is harder to quantify that way but I also believe that this is the way the majority of speakers will be broken in. The potential effect of the cab never occured to me. It's an interesting thought. Given that the cab affects the sound of the speaker and the speakers movement generates pressure inside of the cab, it could affect the way the speaker moves and hence the break in pattern. That really would be a larger follow up test. The first step for me would be to validate speaker break in as a concept and then investigate what affects the process. One would really need to break in a big batch of speakers. Sounds fascinating to me but I don't really have the means to do so. Speaking of means, you asked if you could buy me a cup of coffee on youtube. There should a a feauture active called "Super Thanks" where you can pay a small amount and get your comment highlighted too. I myself have not used that feature but only Super Chats in live streams so I'm not very familiar with the feature. I just know youtube will pass 70% of that on to me. Feel feee to take a look at that but please don't feel obliged to do so. The exchange/engagement here has been very rewarding to me as it is.
I'm not sure about the wattage. As the Micro Terror delivers 20 watts of clean output power, I presume it will be somewhat more than 20 watts. I suppose I could dust off the old oscilloscope and try to measure the approximate output power. I'll be looping a ~ 25 minute loop of riffs I recorded recently. I just pressed record on the DI when I was noodling the other week
🫵👊 Awesome & waiting. I predict little to no change after ‘break in’. But I love being proven wrong, it means I’ve learned something. As per the other videos I believe you are absolutely on track. My HG27’s > Z37 / 4A / & 6A seem to be a less harsh variant. Although, my also “HG27” > Z07 is different to the others above, much higher in the upper treble range. Tolerance within a batch ? 🤷♂️ Later double digit Z & early A = ✅ 🇦🇺🤝🙇♂️
there are also other great speakers from celestion than v30 i personally like both creambacks m and h and the classic lead 80 the weidest speaker that i don,t like are jensen speakers and the celestion g12t75 the t75 has too much midscoop maybe you shoud try some creambacks
@@dominikpohli2381 because I want to. Every video on the V30 I've done was an effort to share research or investigate myths about the V30 through means of testing. The myths surrounding that speaker have fascinated me and to an extent bothered me for years. I thought some people would feel the same so I made my research and testing public. The Creambacks don't have that mystery. The only other speaker with a similar history is the Greenback which I like but don't love and the T-75 which I despise
solve the v30 mytery when i found the wgs retro 30 and the tonespeak liverpool @@TheOtherJohnBrowne whats good mystry speaker is is the g12h 30watt 75hz
Hi @theotherjohnbrowne, greetings from Brazil. I have 2 4x12 Mesa Cabs here, one oversized (loaded with 2003 23EN v30 speakers) and one traditional (loaded with 2005 29FQ v30 speakers) and I've been doing many tests swapping speakers between the two cabs and reamping the same track to record it, motivated by you. Someday I'll upload a video showing my results. For now, I can tell you I'm shocked because I found out that both of my quads of speakers from different years has 2 different voicings each one (matched in pairs), resulting in 4 different voicings: the right speakers (top and bottom) of both of my cabs has that drop around 5khz and smooth top end (above 7th), while the left speakers doesn't. Furthermore, even if there is this similarity in behavior between the right and left pairs of the 2003 and 2005 speakers, I was able to observe the same thing as you and Nolly, since the right pair of the 2003 speakers have an even greater drop in around 5khz and softer in the treble. Do you have any idea why the 4 speakers in the same cabinet, manufactured on the same day, have two distinct sounds and are grouped in matching pairs in each cabinet? Does it have to do with the parallel connection (stereo) of the Mesa cabinet, where the original owner used the right side more than the left and ended up softening one side more than the other? Ps. I have only had these cases for 3 years and I don't know if they have been heavily used in the past.
Hi there, interesting question. I can think of a few possibilities. I suppose it could be that one side was used more than the other but I think it's improbable. Especially in two cabs. It could be that you have speakers with two different cone batches per cab. The speakers may all have the same production date but the cones itself may be from different bacthes though I find it improbable that these have landed seperated to the left and right in two seperate cabs. Are you sure that you are micing both the cab AND the speakers in the same relative positions? Nolly made a video where he pointed out that not only the distance from the centre of the cone affects the sound but also the radial position or how far one is away from the glue blobs where the wires come out of the cone. He made a cool video about that here: ua-cam.com/video/y0w4YFVl77w/v-deo.html I verified this in my ico cab but I didn't make a video about it. So are you micing both speakers at the same position relative to the glue blobs AND are you micing the same position on the cab (both sides mic'd to the outside or to the inside of the cab)? Congrats on the great cab scores. I too have a Mesa OS with 2003 speakers and it brings the thunder.
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne First of all, thank you for promptly answering me. It's my first time trying to do some "science" about guitar tone. Labeling (to facilitate understanding): Speaker 1: top left (seeing from behind the cab, original position) Speaker 2: top right (seeing from behind the cab, original position) Speaker 3: bottom left (seeing from behind the cab, original position) Speaker 4: bottom right (seeing from behind the cab, original position) I'd like to point some facts: A) 2003 (23EN) speakers: 2,3 and 4 have D19-444 cones and 1 have D20-444. B) 2005 (29FQ) speakers: 1 to 4 (all) have E10-444 cones. Ps 1.: Both of my cabs (traditional and oversized) are slants. Ps 2.: I recorded speakers 1 and 3 (left side) at the top left position (swapped them) and speakers 2 and 4 (right side) at the top right position of the cab (swapped them), miking perpendicularly facing the grill cloth (same distance) on the outer side of the speaker where the cone meets the cap (in the middle of the dust cap height), which means the mic was in the same relative position to the glue blobs, although in the 1-3 pair (left side) it was closer to the ground side wire and in the 2-4 pair (right side) it was closer to the hot wire. Ps. 3.: I marked the grill cloth to position the microphone every time in the same place, however I didn't measure the relative distance between the microphone and the glue blobs and I don't know if the glue blobs are positioned in exactly the same place if we compare between speakers (I may do this in the next few days), which may result in small differences in distance between the mic and the glue blobs. Now I ask you: 1) Do you think my difference in tone on the right and left pairs is explained by this greater proximity to the ground or hot wire side? 2) In case I record everything again, if I position the microphone dead center, it will make a difference if I record speakers 1 and 3 on the left and speakers 2 and 4 on the right (both at the top of the cab). I ask this because the soldered wires are short and not long enough to allow me to record all 4 speakers in the same position (all at the top left of the cab, for example). If you agree, I'd love to keep talking about it, please PM me. Cheers!
Interrsting for sure. The top speakers in a slant cab will sound different due to geonetry but you already know that. I can't think of a compelling argumenr why the left side would sound different than the right side. I can't really imagine proximity to ground or hot wire would affect the tone but I don't really know. Have you tried switching the speakers from left to right in the cab to see if it is the speakers or the cab affecting the tone. I assume you are using the same mic?
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne It took me a while to respond to you because I had to redo all the recordings of my experiment, as I discovered some flaws in my method. First I need to make some considerations: - Labeling speakers (to facilitate understanding): Speaker 1: top left (seeing from behind the cab, original position) Speaker 2: top right Speaker 3: bottom left Speaker 4: bottom right - Labeling the mic position: HB: mic centered in the horizontal glue blob VB: mic centered in the vertical glue blob C: mic centered in the speaker's center - In both 2003 and 2005 quads: speakers 1 and 4: HB: connected to the hot wire VB: connected to the ground wire speakers 2 and 3: HB: connected to the ground wire VB: connected to the hot wire - 2003 (23EN) speakers: 2,3 and 4 have D19-444 cones and 1 have D20-444. - 2005 (29FQ) speakers: 1 to 4 (all) have E10-444 cones. - I only used my oversized slant cab table for comparison; - I always used the same Shure SM57 dead centered in the speaker (I made a fixed support to always guarantee the same position);
I discovered some new things that answer my own questions I asked you previously: 1) My cab's speaker holes are not 100% centered in the baffle. I found out that the speakers on the right are 14mm closer to the outer wall of the cab than the ones on the left. This way, I did an experiment recording all 8 speakers (the 4 from 2003 and the 4 from 2005) in the two positions of the cab (right and left at the top) and I discovered that the tone obtained in all speakers when positioned on the left it has a boost in the bass frequencies (60-600hz), while in the other frequency ranges the position (right or left) tends not to affect the tone. 2) For both quads of speakers, each different year of manufacture is grouped in its own way in terms of general tone from 60-6700hz, however in the higher frequency range (from 6700hz onwards) there is no standard, as each one of the 8 speakers presented peaks at different frequencies. In general, the 2003's speakers have lower treble peaks than the 2005s, however the 2003 "speaker 2" has the highest peak at around 11khz which makes it a little bit fizzy. 3) In general, when I fixed the speaker position variable within the cab, both quads of speakers (2003 and 2005) have a very similar response at frequencies from 60-2300hz in all 8, with the most apparent differences being between quads being a drop at frequencies around 2700-3000hz and another drop between 5000-6200hz of the 2003's speakers in relation to those of 2005. 4) Fixing the variable of the year of manufacture and position of the speaker inside the cab (top right): - 2003: 60-600hz: all 4 behave very similarly 600-2000hz: speakers 2,3 and 4 (D19-444 cones) behave very similarly, while 1 (D20-444 cone) is a little lower. 2900hz: slight drop of speaker 1 in relation to the others. Would it be a different cone effect? 5200-6200hz: all 4 behave very similarly Around 7200hz: speakers 1,2 and 4 behave very similarly, while 3 has a peak in this range. 8000-10000hz: all 4 behave very similarly. Around 11000hz: speakers 1,3 and 4 behave very similarly, while 2 has a peak in this range. - 2005: 60-5600hz: all 4 behave very similarly 5600-6500hz: speakers 2,3 and 4 behave very similarly, while 1 is lower in this range. From 6500hz: there is no standard, each speaker presents different peaks. 5) About glue blobs (both 2003 and 2005): - speakers 1 and 4: 60-2600hz> the 3 positions behave very similarly (C, HB, VB) 2900hz> C: higher, HB: intermediate, VB: lower 5000hz and highs (above 7000hz) range> C: higher, HB: intermediate, VB: lower (drop) - speaker 2 and 3: 60-2600hz: the 3 positions behave very similarly (C, HB, VB) 2900hz> C: higher, HB: intermediate, VB: lower 5000hz and highs (above 7000hz) range> C: higher, HB: lower (big drop), VB: intermediate First conclusion that I was impressed with is that a small asymmetry in the positioning of the speakers inside the cab (14mm) generated a lot of difference in the bass responses of the speakers, that is why I fixed the position variation when testing, which gave me a lot of work because I had to open the cab 8 times to change the speakers. I was very intrigued to discover that not only do glue blobs affect the tone of a speaker when you're miking up close, but also to learn that the tone between which glue blob you're miking also matters, since the region over the glue blobs connected to the hot wire generate higher pitched tones compared to glue blobs connected to the ground wire. Also, I mic'd the speakers where the cone meets the dust cap in an intermediate position between the two glue blobs, where I found tones with intermediate peaks between those reported for the position on the hot wire glue blob and the ground wire glue blob. Finally, I mic'd the speakers where the cone meets the dust cap on the side diametrically opposite the glue blobs (vertical and horizontal), where I also noticed a difference in tones between the two positions, reinforcing that not only the position of the microphone in relation to the glue blobs matter, but also whether it is the glue blob connected to the hot wire or ground wire. Have you ever noticed this difference?
@@marcelopm3 That is an insanely detailed comment. Thank you. Your findings are pretty much in line with mine. The offset to one side and its effect were particularly interesting. I have not yet mic'd a speaker at the different glue blobs. I assume that the difference has more to do with the orientation in the cab though. I cannot imagine the polarity having anything to do with it as it is an AC signal going through the speaker
Hi John, Thank you for your info on the V30 speaker. I'm finding it difficult to locate an early V30 8ohm speaker, do you have any tips other than ebay, reverb or market place? Thanks
My pleasure. I'm afraid not. All you can really do is keep an eye on the usual suspects like reverb and ebay and whatever local/domestic sales platforms you may have available. Keep an eye out for affordable 4x12s that may be loaded with the speakers you desire too.
@@yamz89 yes up to about 2001 there is a stamp on the frame/basket and from sometime in 2001, there is a white sticker on the magnet with the date code on it.
Hi! bought a V30 16ohm, last week from Thomann. sticker on the magnet say´s T3904B 16ohm CK08 MadeUK, cone 32B 0441, what do i have here? Can you help? Congrats for the topic. Thx in advance
You have a UK made Celestion Vintage 30 built or QC'd on March 8th 2024 so very new. The cone likely has 0444 on it but the last 4 might not have printed properly, making it look like a 1. 32B appears to be a batch number for the cones. That's all I can say about that. Your speaker is about 1,5 years younger than any V30 I have tried so I can't tell you anything about where it falls tonally regarding 5 to 5 kHz but it's a V30, so it's likely going to sound great.
The Seymour Duncan Power Stage is Class D. Pulse Width Modulated audio is a war crime it should only be used for motor speed controllers where the crossover distortion doesn't matter. PWM circuits are extremely cheap to make so they have a higher profit margin, not high fidelity. You should use a traditional solid state power amp that uses a Class A or Class A/B topology. It boggles my mind the lengths you go only to negate it with a power amp suitable for welding. I do appreciate all you do though, you might have saved be from buying a 2017 Oversized Mesa Cab.
LOL. I appreciate your appreciation. Your hatred and disdain for class D poweramps make for an amusing read and I agree with you for the most part. Not my first choice for musical applications and I don't own the SD power amp anymore. I mainly needed something that would drive the speakers consistently without changing its (meaning the power amp) characteristic over time like a tube power amp might due to wear. A class A/B solid state power amp would have been nice to have. At the same time, I do not have an unlimited budget. Did you watch the actual break in video? To eliminate the effect that my driving power amp may not be suitable I did some supplementary power amp testing and the test included various redundancies to validate my methods and result. I like to think it resulted in a solid test. On the Mesa cab: The speakers in those might not be as special as people make them out to be but the cabs themselves are spectacular. So if you find an affordable one, buying it may not be your worst decision.
I have been waiting for this comment. Haha. Well, it's a bit of a clusterf*ck and you're not far off. I'm Irish but have lived in Germany for pretty much all my life. So the English speaking TV I'd be able to see as a kid was predominantly American. Most of the customers I deal with in my day job in the last decade are Canadian though so those influences will without a doubt have crept in to an extent, despite me trying my best to speak without an accent.
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne haha thanks for the explanation. I thought I detected some Irish but wasn't sure... and I also thought you pronounced some words like what's his name... Henner? Who is German so I just said "European" to be safe hahaha. A cluster f*ck, hahahaha. I'm Aussie, accents don't get more fkn annoying than us though so don't worry lol. Keep up the good work, love your videos. First time commenter though "I think" 🤘
@@KaddysJamKave Awesome! Thanks man, I appreciate it! I for one love Aussie accents. In my opinion an Aussie accent is optimal for cursing, followed closely by a Scottish accent but I am conviced "the c word" was created for the Aussie accent
The Marshall Vintage speakers sound REMARKABLY different from the Mesa V30 ones. To my ears, the speakers on 1960V cabs sound closer to the V-Type - much more balanced midrange, none of that high mid harshness V30s have. Every Marshall head I've ever plugged into a Mesa cab - or Orange, ENGL, etc. - has sounded hollow and "distant". They're not the same speakers at all.
I respect your opinion. At the same time I believe you might be hearing the effect the cab has as well as the difference in voice coil impedances. Marshalls use 16 Ohm speakers while Mesas and Engls use 8 Ohm speakers. I shot over 50 V30 variants out in a big test a couple of months ago and I could not determine a specific characteristic for a Marshall G12 Vintage or a Mesa Boogie OEM V30. A Marshall G12 Vintage, Mesa spec V30 and a regular V30 of the same impedance made during the same period will pretty much sound the same in my experience. Since I released that test, some people in the know have reached out to me and confirmed that the OEM V30s and the regular V30s use the exact same parts that generate the tone and essentially sound the same. Some OEMs may have some specified tolerances but the design is the same.
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne There's one piece of evidence that you're ignoring: V30s are 60W. "Marshall Vintage" are 70W. Unless Celestion is lying about power ratings, the design is different. 1960V cabs are rated 280W. I don't understand why Celestion and Marshall keep this aura of mystery around those speakers, but Marshall Vintage cabs have their own tone which is completely different from any V30-equipped cab. It can't just be the plywood.
Celestion rate their speakers very conservatively. The older Mesa cabs with V30s were also rated at 280 watts. I would assume they keep the aura of mystique up because it sells. The design is 38 years old and we are still talking about it today. People buy Mesa and Marshall cabs specifically for the "special" V30s in them. Celestion would be doing their customers a diservice if they came out and stated that their customers coveted OEM V30s were the same as the bog standard V30s. Celestion have nothing ro gain from that. It would only piss off their OEM customers. Yes, Marshall V30 cabs do sound different, I believe you are correct in that and I also believe you are correct in saying it is not all about plywood. From what I have heard and seen the material used in the cab doesn't even play that big of a role. What moves the needle are the internal dimensions of the cab and the construction. Baffle construction, baffle angle, bracing, speaker spacing and how well sealed the cab is all affect resonance frequencies and which frequencies are affected by phase cancellation and thus the sound of the cab.
Check the gauge sheet metal on the Frames, then anyone who thinks the same materials are the same on UK vs Chinese try to say it's the same. They ain't the Chinese is thinner, try Yourself.
T.O.J.B you aerodynamic legend.
Cheers! All that time in the wind tunnel paid off!
In case you need additional empirical data from the wild: today I picked up a recently auctioned V30 dated April 2021 with cone stamp Z15 and compared it against my other V30 dated October 2015 with cone R27.
Result: I can confirm your hypothesis!!!
Thank you for all the effort you put into this. I hope Celestion offer you a job as chief V30 design engineer 😉.
Outstanding! I'm happy that worked out for you! I appreciate the comment!
Your legend continues to grow. Once again, thanks for the obsession and dives
Thank you for the clarification on the uk/ China on the label lol. Another informational banger! Appreciate your dedication
Nice, Ive just tried using the parametric eq in my multi floor pedal, which resolves this V30 difference nicely. Went from the new harsh kssssss to the 2000's shushhhh just like that.
Awesome! I need to try that
I have an old Marshall Studio 15 from ‘86. First amp ever to sport the V30. In fact, Marshall commissioned Celestion to engineer a new speaker specifically for this amp, and the result was the Vintage 30. Sounds better with a 2011 Chinese V30 (25th Anniversary edition) than with the original imo.
i've sent some of your videos on the v30s to musician friends. baffles me how you only have so few subscribers. the info you provide is so useful and valuable to every rock & metal guitarist, and recording engineers.
Thanks for the kind words and sharing my videos! That means an awful lot to me!
Considering that I've only been uploading videos consistently for about a year, I'm quite content with the way the channel has grown but it's flattering to read that people think it should be bigger 🙂
Very informative and thorough. Very good. Thank you.
Thanks for tying up loose ends for what has been an amazingly interesting series of videos.
The wealth of information you provide never ceases to amaze me.
Also one just has to appreciate the production value leaps this year!
Cheers man!
Hope the speaker break in happens before the neighbours want a word ;)
Thanks for noticing. I've been trying to make the editing a bit more interesting
Man, John I love your work. Really just wanted you to know that. Cheers my friend.
Thanks, man! I really appreciate that!
This video came in a pretty cool time, I scored a Marshall 1989 vintage 30 off reverb for 100 bucks shipped and it’s so bad ass
100 rocks??? That's a sick find, man! Congrats!
Awesome, I am looking forward to the results. It is so amazing that you made a deep dive into this topic!
Thanks man....p.s. you have 100% mad scientist look
Hahaha! Love it! Thanks for watching!
Hi John, thank you for the fantastic video and all of the hard work you have put into doing this research. I have thoroughly enjoyed following you along this journey. I am currently refurbishing an early 2000's mesa oversized cabinet that the previous owner had replaced the v30's in. Today I recieved a new UK V30 from Mesa Boogie ( ordered in October 2023) with a November 2021 build date and 29A batch code. I am looking forward to conducting my own comparison to see how they differ from the 2001-2003 celestions in my other cabinets.
That's awesome! Thanks for commenting! If my theory is correct, that new V30 shouldn't be far off the 2002-2003 ones!
Another very informative video. I have a couple of "rarer" Celestion speakers: the V60 which I think is only found in ENGL standard cabinets and some Rola/Celestion G-12 75 watt from the early 80's
Got to add 1999 in the 2000-2004… Played a few mesa cabs from 99 that sound amazing.
They quite possibly share the same qualities. I just haven't gotten my hands on any 99s yet
Really like your videos, very informative. Would be great if you made one comparing different speakers.
The science that you put behind this obsession is okay with me! I dig this kind of crap, er ah, stuff! It would be awesome if Celestion provided the @5K freq and db sheet for their speakers up front. Perhaps it would give a potential savvy buyer an informed option.
Is there a way for me to buy you a cup of coffee or something via UA-cam? I really appreciate the reasonable approach.
Idk anything hardly about speaker break in. I have to wonder if pink/white noise or a sequenced playlist of full-band mixes might stress each speaker the same (but differently than chugs from a single guitar) if it stresses it differently maybe it would loosen it differently.
If indeed there are measurable changes in a speaker with break-in, it might be harder to see any breakin if the maximum duration of breakin procedure is unknown. Like maybe it takes 5 hours instead
of 4? Idk.
To what extent does the stiffness of the cabinetry affect the duration or efficacy of any break in procedure, like trying to engage a stomp box over padded carpet vs stepping on a switch over concrete. Or running in sand?
You raise a lot of interesting questions. I would assume that different audio sources could affect break in differently.
I've read of quite a few people using white/pink noise or sine waves to break in speakers.
However, in a video on Kohlekellers channel Ignacio from Jensen Speakers advised against such approaches, as the permanent excitement of the voice coil in those approaches may cause it to overheat and burn out. Hence I chose the more "natural" approach of playing guitar through the speaker despite the fact that the load the speaker will see is harder to quantify that way but I also believe that this is the way the majority of speakers will be broken in.
The potential effect of the cab never occured to me. It's an interesting thought. Given that the cab affects the sound of the speaker and the speakers movement generates pressure inside of the cab, it could affect the way the speaker moves and hence the break in pattern.
That really would be a larger follow up test. The first step for me would be to validate speaker break in as a concept and then investigate what affects the process. One would really need to break in a big batch of speakers. Sounds fascinating to me but I don't really have the means to do so.
Speaking of means, you asked if you could buy me a cup of coffee on youtube. There should a a feauture active called "Super Thanks" where you can pay a small amount and get your comment highlighted too. I myself have not used that feature but only Super Chats in live streams so I'm not very familiar with the feature. I just know youtube will pass 70% of that on to me.
Feel feee to take a look at that but please don't feel obliged to do so. The exchange/engagement here has been very rewarding to me as it is.
How much wattage will actually be delivered t the speaker during break in? For how long? Can you give details on the break in loop contents/music?
I'm not sure about the wattage. As the Micro Terror delivers 20 watts of clean output power, I presume it will be somewhat more than 20 watts. I suppose I could dust off the old oscilloscope and try to measure the approximate output power.
I'll be looping a ~ 25 minute loop of riffs I recorded recently. I just pressed record on the DI when I was noodling the other week
🫵👊 Awesome & waiting.
I predict little to no change after ‘break in’. But I love being proven wrong, it means I’ve learned something.
As per the other videos I believe you are absolutely on track.
My HG27’s > Z37 / 4A / & 6A seem to be a less harsh variant.
Although, my also “HG27” > Z07 is different to the others above, much higher in the upper treble range.
Tolerance within a batch ? 🤷♂️
Later double digit Z & early A = ✅
🇦🇺🤝🙇♂️
I hope for at least a small change. Otherwise it will be a tough test and and even tougher video to make. I'll have to decide when to stop.
@@bdguitarsservice3359 Thanks. I'll make sure to clock that
there are also other great speakers from celestion than v30 i personally like both creambacks m and h and the classic lead 80 the weidest speaker that i don,t like are jensen speakers and the celestion g12t75 the t75 has too much midscoop maybe you shoud try some creambacks
I have had all the Creamback variants and like them very much
and why do you make so much videos about v30@@TheOtherJohnBrowne
@@dominikpohli2381 because I want to. Every video on the V30 I've done was an effort to share research or investigate myths about the V30 through means of testing. The myths surrounding that speaker have fascinated me and to an extent bothered me for years. I thought some people would feel the same so I made my research and testing public.
The Creambacks don't have that mystery. The only other speaker with a similar history is the Greenback which I like but don't love and the T-75 which I despise
solve the v30 mytery when i found the wgs retro 30 and the tonespeak liverpool @@TheOtherJohnBrowne whats good mystry speaker is is the g12h 30watt 75hz
Hi @theotherjohnbrowne, greetings from Brazil. I have 2 4x12 Mesa Cabs here, one oversized (loaded with 2003 23EN v30 speakers) and one traditional (loaded with 2005 29FQ v30 speakers) and I've been doing many tests swapping speakers between the two cabs and reamping the same track to record it, motivated by you. Someday I'll upload a video showing my results. For now, I can tell you I'm shocked because I found out that both of my quads of speakers from different years has 2 different voicings each one (matched in pairs), resulting in 4 different voicings: the right speakers (top and bottom) of both of my cabs has that drop around 5khz and smooth top end (above 7th), while the left speakers doesn't. Furthermore, even if there is this similarity in behavior between the right and left pairs of the 2003 and 2005 speakers, I was able to observe the same thing as you and Nolly, since the right pair of the 2003 speakers have an even greater drop in around 5khz and softer in the treble. Do you have any idea why the 4 speakers in the same cabinet, manufactured on the same day, have two distinct sounds and are grouped in matching pairs in each cabinet? Does it have to do with the parallel connection (stereo) of the Mesa cabinet, where the original owner used the right side more than the left and ended up softening one side more than the other? Ps. I have only had these cases for 3 years and I don't know if they have been heavily used in the past.
Hi there,
interesting question. I can think of a few possibilities. I suppose it could be that one side was used more than the other but I think it's improbable. Especially in two cabs.
It could be that you have speakers with two different cone batches per cab. The speakers may all have the same production date but the cones itself may be from different bacthes though I find it improbable that these have landed seperated to the left and right in two seperate cabs.
Are you sure that you are micing both the cab AND the speakers in the same relative positions? Nolly made a video where he pointed out that not only the distance from the centre of the cone affects the sound but also the radial position or how far one is away from the glue blobs where the wires come out of the cone. He made a cool video about that here:
ua-cam.com/video/y0w4YFVl77w/v-deo.html
I verified this in my ico cab but I didn't make a video about it. So are you micing both speakers at the same position relative to the glue blobs AND are you micing the same position on the cab (both sides mic'd to the outside or to the inside of the cab)?
Congrats on the great cab scores. I too have a Mesa OS with 2003 speakers and it brings the thunder.
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne
First of all, thank you for promptly answering me. It's my first time trying to do some "science" about guitar tone.
Labeling (to facilitate understanding):
Speaker 1: top left (seeing from behind the cab, original position)
Speaker 2: top right (seeing from behind the cab, original position)
Speaker 3: bottom left (seeing from behind the cab, original position)
Speaker 4: bottom right (seeing from behind the cab, original position)
I'd like to point some facts:
A) 2003 (23EN) speakers: 2,3 and 4 have D19-444 cones and 1 have D20-444.
B) 2005 (29FQ) speakers: 1 to 4 (all) have E10-444 cones.
Ps 1.: Both of my cabs (traditional and oversized) are slants.
Ps 2.: I recorded speakers 1 and 3 (left side) at the top left position (swapped them) and speakers 2 and 4 (right side) at the top right position of the cab (swapped them), miking perpendicularly facing the grill cloth (same distance) on the outer side of the speaker where the cone meets the cap (in the middle of the dust cap height), which means the mic was in the same relative position to the glue blobs, although in the 1-3 pair (left side) it was closer to the ground side wire and in the 2-4 pair (right side) it was closer to the hot wire.
Ps. 3.: I marked the grill cloth to position the microphone every time in the same place, however I didn't measure the relative distance between the microphone and the glue blobs and I don't know if the glue blobs are positioned in exactly the same place if we compare between speakers (I may do this in the next few days), which may result in small differences in distance between the mic and the glue blobs.
Now I ask you:
1) Do you think my difference in tone on the right and left pairs is explained by this greater proximity to the ground or hot wire side?
2) In case I record everything again, if I position the microphone dead center, it will make a difference if I record speakers 1 and 3 on the left and speakers 2 and 4 on the right (both at the top of the cab). I ask this because the soldered wires are short and not long enough to allow me to record all 4 speakers in the same position (all at the top left of the cab, for example).
If you agree, I'd love to keep talking about it, please PM me.
Cheers!
Interrsting for sure. The top speakers in a slant cab will sound different due to geonetry but you already know that.
I can't think of a compelling argumenr why the left side would sound different than the right side. I can't really imagine proximity to ground or hot wire would affect the tone but I don't really know.
Have you tried switching the speakers from left to right in the cab to see if it is the speakers or the cab affecting the tone. I assume you are using the same mic?
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne
It took me a while to respond to you because I had to redo all the recordings of my experiment, as I discovered some flaws in my method. First I need to make some considerations:
- Labeling speakers (to facilitate understanding):
Speaker 1: top left (seeing from behind the cab, original position)
Speaker 2: top right
Speaker 3: bottom left
Speaker 4: bottom right
- Labeling the mic position:
HB: mic centered in the horizontal glue blob
VB: mic centered in the vertical glue blob
C: mic centered in the speaker's center
- In both 2003 and 2005 quads:
speakers 1 and 4:
HB: connected to the hot wire
VB: connected to the ground wire
speakers 2 and 3:
HB: connected to the ground wire
VB: connected to the hot wire
- 2003 (23EN) speakers: 2,3 and 4 have D19-444 cones and 1 have D20-444.
- 2005 (29FQ) speakers: 1 to 4 (all) have E10-444 cones.
- I only used my oversized slant cab table for comparison;
- I always used the same Shure SM57 dead centered in the speaker (I made a fixed support to always guarantee the same position);
I discovered some new things that answer my own questions I asked you previously:
1) My cab's speaker holes are not 100% centered in the baffle. I found out that the speakers on the right are 14mm closer to the outer wall of the cab than the ones on the left. This way, I did an experiment recording all 8 speakers (the 4 from 2003 and the 4 from 2005) in the two positions of the cab (right and left at the top) and I discovered that the tone obtained in all speakers when positioned on the left it has a boost in the bass frequencies (60-600hz), while in the other frequency ranges the position (right or left) tends not to affect the tone.
2) For both quads of speakers, each different year of manufacture is grouped in its own way in terms of general tone from 60-6700hz, however in the higher frequency range (from 6700hz onwards) there is no standard, as each one of the 8 speakers presented peaks at different frequencies. In general, the 2003's speakers have lower treble peaks than the 2005s, however the 2003 "speaker 2" has the highest peak at around 11khz which makes it a little bit fizzy.
3) In general, when I fixed the speaker position variable within the cab, both quads of speakers (2003 and 2005) have a very similar response at frequencies from 60-2300hz in all 8, with the most apparent differences being between quads being a drop at frequencies around 2700-3000hz and another drop between 5000-6200hz of the 2003's speakers in relation to those of 2005.
4) Fixing the variable of the year of manufacture and position of the speaker inside the cab (top right):
- 2003:
60-600hz: all 4 behave very similarly
600-2000hz: speakers 2,3 and 4 (D19-444 cones) behave very similarly, while 1 (D20-444 cone) is a little lower.
2900hz: slight drop of speaker 1 in relation to the others. Would it be a different cone effect?
5200-6200hz: all 4 behave very similarly
Around 7200hz: speakers 1,2 and 4 behave very similarly, while 3 has a peak in this range.
8000-10000hz: all 4 behave very similarly.
Around 11000hz: speakers 1,3 and 4 behave very similarly, while 2 has a peak in this range.
- 2005:
60-5600hz: all 4 behave very similarly
5600-6500hz: speakers 2,3 and 4 behave very similarly, while 1 is lower in this range.
From 6500hz: there is no standard, each speaker presents different peaks.
5) About glue blobs (both 2003 and 2005):
- speakers 1 and 4:
60-2600hz> the 3 positions behave very similarly (C, HB, VB)
2900hz> C: higher, HB: intermediate, VB: lower
5000hz and highs (above 7000hz) range> C: higher, HB: intermediate, VB: lower (drop)
- speaker 2 and 3:
60-2600hz: the 3 positions behave very similarly (C, HB, VB)
2900hz> C: higher, HB: intermediate, VB: lower
5000hz and highs (above 7000hz) range> C: higher, HB: lower (big drop), VB: intermediate
First conclusion that I was impressed with is that a small asymmetry in the positioning of the speakers inside the cab (14mm) generated a lot of difference in the bass responses of the speakers, that is why I fixed the position variation when testing, which gave me a lot of work because I had to open the cab 8 times to change the speakers.
I was very intrigued to discover that not only do glue blobs affect the tone of a speaker when you're miking up close, but also to learn that the tone between which glue blob you're miking also matters, since the region over the glue blobs connected to the hot wire generate higher pitched tones compared to glue blobs connected to the ground wire.
Also, I mic'd the speakers where the cone meets the dust cap in an intermediate position between the two glue blobs, where I found tones with intermediate peaks between those reported for the position on the hot wire glue blob and the ground wire glue blob.
Finally, I mic'd the speakers where the cone meets the dust cap on the side diametrically opposite the glue blobs (vertical and horizontal), where I also noticed a difference in tones between the two positions, reinforcing that not only the position of the microphone in relation to the glue blobs matter, but also whether it is the glue blob connected to the hot wire or ground wire.
Have you ever noticed this difference?
@@marcelopm3 That is an insanely detailed comment. Thank you. Your findings are pretty much in line with mine. The offset to one side and its effect were particularly interesting. I have not yet mic'd a speaker at the different glue blobs. I assume that the difference has more to do with the orientation in the cab though. I cannot imagine the polarity having anything to do with it as it is an AC signal going through the speaker
Hi John,
Thank you for your info on the V30 speaker. I'm finding it difficult to locate an early V30 8ohm speaker, do you have any tips other than ebay, reverb or market place?
Thanks
My pleasure.
I'm afraid not. All you can really do is keep an eye on the usual suspects like reverb and ebay and whatever local/domestic sales platforms you may have available. Keep an eye out for affordable 4x12s that may be loaded with the speakers you desire too.
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne Thanks John, am I right in thinking a UK speaker with the 1777 cone is the one I want for smoother highs?
No, you'll want to find any V30 made between 2000 and 2003 or late 2021 to early 2022 for smoother highs
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne thanks, are they date stamped?
@@yamz89 yes up to about 2001 there is a stamp on the frame/basket and from sometime in 2001, there is a white sticker on the magnet with the date code on it.
Hi! bought a V30 16ohm, last week from Thomann. sticker on the magnet say´s T3904B 16ohm CK08 MadeUK, cone 32B 0441, what do i have here? Can you help? Congrats for the topic. Thx in advance
You have a UK made Celestion Vintage 30 built or QC'd on March 8th 2024 so very new. The cone likely has 0444 on it but the last 4 might not have printed properly, making it look like a 1. 32B appears to be a batch number for the cones. That's all I can say about that.
Your speaker is about 1,5 years younger than any V30 I have tried so I can't tell you anything about where it falls tonally regarding 5 to 5 kHz but it's a V30, so it's likely going to sound great.
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne Thank you so much for the the help and quick answer.
2:45 they sound _dope_ huh? Illuminati intensifies.
My V-30 has a black frame.
The Seymour Duncan Power Stage is Class D. Pulse Width Modulated audio is a war crime it should only be used for motor speed controllers where the crossover distortion doesn't matter. PWM circuits are extremely cheap to make so they have a higher profit margin, not high fidelity. You should use a traditional solid state power amp that uses a Class A or Class A/B topology. It boggles my mind the lengths you go only to negate it with a power amp suitable for welding. I do appreciate all you do though, you might have saved be from buying a 2017 Oversized Mesa Cab.
LOL. I appreciate your appreciation. Your hatred and disdain for class D poweramps make for an amusing read and I agree with you for the most part. Not my first choice for musical applications and I don't own the SD power amp anymore. I mainly needed something that would drive the speakers consistently without changing its (meaning the power amp) characteristic over time like a tube power amp might due to wear. A class A/B solid state power amp would have been nice to have. At the same time, I do not have an unlimited budget. Did you watch the actual break in video? To eliminate the effect that my driving power amp may not be suitable I did some supplementary power amp testing and the test included various redundancies to validate my methods and result. I like to think it resulted in a solid test.
On the Mesa cab: The speakers in those might not be as special as people make them out to be but the cabs themselves are spectacular. So if you find an affordable one, buying it may not be your worst decision.
What the heck accent is that mate? Sounds like a blend of Canadian AND somewhere in Europe... No idea but curious lol.
I have been waiting for this comment. Haha.
Well, it's a bit of a clusterf*ck and you're not far off. I'm Irish but have lived in Germany for pretty much all my life. So the English speaking TV I'd be able to see as a kid was predominantly American. Most of the customers I deal with in my day job in the last decade are Canadian though so those influences will without a doubt have crept in to an extent, despite me trying my best to speak without an accent.
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne haha thanks for the explanation. I thought I detected some Irish but wasn't sure... and I also thought you pronounced some words like what's his name... Henner? Who is German so I just said "European" to be safe hahaha. A cluster f*ck, hahahaha. I'm Aussie, accents don't get more fkn annoying than us though so don't worry lol. Keep up the good work, love your videos. First time commenter though "I think" 🤘
@@KaddysJamKave Awesome! Thanks man, I appreciate it!
I for one love Aussie accents. In my opinion an Aussie accent is optimal for cursing, followed closely by a Scottish accent but I am conviced "the c word" was created for the Aussie accent
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne haha I'll take it... But yeah you can't really beat Billy Connolly's Scottish accent cursing hahahah
@@KaddysJamKave LOL! That's exactly who I was thinking of
The Marshall Vintage speakers sound REMARKABLY different from the Mesa V30 ones. To my ears, the speakers on 1960V cabs sound closer to the V-Type - much more balanced midrange, none of that high mid harshness V30s have. Every Marshall head I've ever plugged into a Mesa cab - or Orange, ENGL, etc. - has sounded hollow and "distant". They're not the same speakers at all.
I respect your opinion. At the same time I believe you might be hearing the effect the cab has as well as the difference in voice coil impedances. Marshalls use 16 Ohm speakers while Mesas and Engls use 8 Ohm speakers.
I shot over 50 V30 variants out in a big test a couple of months ago and I could not determine a specific characteristic for a Marshall G12 Vintage or a Mesa Boogie OEM V30. A Marshall G12 Vintage, Mesa spec V30 and a regular V30 of the same impedance made during the same period will pretty much sound the same in my experience.
Since I released that test, some people in the know have reached out to me and confirmed that the OEM V30s and the regular V30s use the exact same parts that generate the tone and essentially sound the same. Some OEMs may have some specified tolerances but the design is the same.
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne There's one piece of evidence that you're ignoring: V30s are 60W. "Marshall Vintage" are 70W. Unless Celestion is lying about power ratings, the design is different. 1960V cabs are rated 280W. I don't understand why Celestion and Marshall keep this aura of mystery around those speakers, but Marshall Vintage cabs have their own tone which is completely different from any V30-equipped cab. It can't just be the plywood.
Celestion rate their speakers very conservatively. The older Mesa cabs with V30s were also rated at 280 watts.
I would assume they keep the aura of mystique up because it sells. The design is 38 years old and we are still talking about it today. People buy Mesa and Marshall cabs specifically for the "special" V30s in them. Celestion would be doing their customers a diservice if they came out and stated that their customers coveted OEM V30s were the same as the bog standard V30s. Celestion have nothing ro gain from that. It would only piss off their OEM customers.
Yes, Marshall V30 cabs do sound different, I believe you are correct in that and I also believe you are correct in saying it is not all about plywood. From what I have heard and seen the material used in the cab doesn't even play that big of a role. What moves the needle are the internal dimensions of the cab and the construction. Baffle construction, baffle angle, bracing, speaker spacing and how well sealed the cab is all affect resonance frequencies and which frequencies are affected by phase cancellation and thus the sound of the cab.
Check the gauge sheet metal on the Frames, then anyone who thinks the same materials are the same on UK vs Chinese try to say it's the same. They ain't the Chinese is thinner, try Yourself.
RMS Program