Looking forward to the repertoire survey Dave :) I haven’t heard this, but I wonder if there isn’t a temptation in studio recordings in particular, to try to be “deep” in many of these songs by doing them daringly slow. But then the listener has to sit through all of them, and it can cumulatively become a chore. I’ve heard numerous ones, but my favourite I think is the earlier version by Christoph Pregardien with Andreas Staier (Teldec, Warner now I guess). Not everyone will like the fortepiano I suppose but it moves… (as well as moves). My heart tends to sink if the trudging in the first song (one of the longest) gets way too slow…
I hadn’t listened to Winterreise (or for that matter much lieder) for a few years, so Schuen escaped my attention. Your characterisation of the singing as “too beuatiful” was the go ahead for me to purchase it on the spot. It was a joy to luxuriate in glorious singing without having to worry too much about comparions with other singers (or for that matter, even the words, dare I say)! I suppose I will now have to revisit the many incarnations of Winterreise that exist in my collection. Then, of course, I can see this leading me down all sorts of lieder rabbit holes!
Definitely looking forward to your Winterreise video. My personal favorite recordings are Peter Schreier with Sviatoslav Richter, and Matthias Goerne, his first one with Graham Johnson. I love Winterreise, but I don’t care for the highly revered multiple Fischer-Dieskau recordings. I know he was a legend, but, I cannot abide his voice, for reasons I probably shouldn’t try to explain…
Interesting. My go-to is Pears and Britten... which at 73 minutes is perhaps on your long side! Fish-Dish does it in 71. I will now have to buy this one to test the waters!
The whole point about Lieder is that they are settings of poems. If the interpretation helps to convey the emotions evoked by the poem, then it is successful. (Which is why it’s a waste of time listening to Lieder without the text). I agree that beauty per se is a secondary consideration.
Well I don't think it's a waste of time to listen to Liszts solo piano transcriptions of Schuberts Lieder. There are some truly wonderful interpreters of them. I recommend Berman, specifically. I agree that voice plus piano is better than just piano, but Schubert composed so beautifully, that just his music without text captures the general atmosphere of a certain poem to a great extent. There is a good reason Schubert is called a poet of music. Or should I say: a musical poet.
I don't feel the bleakness and anguish of the poetry in his performance. My preference is Pears/Britten. I will be interested to learn who you recommend in due course.
I would like to hear your opinions on various singers' diction (good and bad). I have a recording of Waltraud Meier (or is it Müller) performing Chausson's Dawn/Evening Poems under Muti, where I cannot tell what language she is singing in. It's probably not Finnish, but what language is it?
No, it's not just you.I find this performance mannered, and that the beauty of the voice actually draws attention away from Schubert to the vocalist.Peter Schreier - in a 1985 live performance in Dresden with Sviatoslav Richter - demonstrates that beauty of tone isn't everything.And just to add to the intimacy of the atmosphere encouraged by Schreier's confiding way with the words, you get authentic East German cigarette-fuelled coughing.Priceless!
I agree with every word you said, Dave (and with pretty much all other comments already made here regarding this performance). I particularly like the relatively recent performance of James Rutherford & Eugene Asti on BIS (2021). BTW, it's only 71 minutes long. My personal predilection regarding the voice in this work is for a low, dark baritone with distinct bass "undertones". Rutherford fits the bill perfectly, for my taste at least.
It's beautifully , wonderfully sung indeed but it does not express any despair. If you don't know the lyrics, it may even be hard to guess the thematic of the cycle. This is as opposed to Bostridge's rendition as it can possibly be.
I completly agree with this one and I AM a Lieder-guy. 😅 His voice is amazingly beautiful and I really enjoyed his Müllerin (except for the Wiegenlied which was far to slow for my taste), so I was a little bit dissappointed with this one.
I completely agree with you. I loved his Muellerin, but had already the same impression with his Schwanengesang. Actually, I think that he is more mannered in the Winterreise. The ´R’ rolling at the beginning of Rast is really overdone, for example. Interestingly Gerhaher is as slow, but, imho, more interesting, while doing less. I hope you will mention his rendition in your survey.
Most contemporary lieder singers also perform with too much voice, in an " operatic" style. Better to scale down the voice, pay scrupulous attention to the words & deploy a wide variety of colours. Pianist is a partner, not a mere accompanist. My way in front preferred performance of this stunning cycle is Patzak & Demus.
I rarely find myself so at odds with Dave’s view as to want to voice a disagreement but this is one such time. I’m a Winterreise obsessive. I have far too many recordings and have been to way too many performances than is healthy. As with any work, the performers have a great many artistic decisions and compromises to make in order to balance the tensions inherent within the piece. And, generally speaking, the greater the work the more tensions there are to be managed. Someone else here commented upon Winterreise being a cohesive setting of multiple poems, and I feel that is crucial to its performance - something which I think Schuen rightly gives primacy to in his interpretation. With Winterreise, Schubert created a body of songs that is neither opera nor straight leider but a collision of the two. I once heard it described as being rather like a singer-songwriter concept album, and there is some truth in that. What are characterised here as Schuen’s vocal mannerisms seem to me to be simply the choices of someone who is respecting the importance of the words and giving them due weight and attention in advancing the narrative. In an opera, some of this load would be carried by dramatic action on stage. Not so with Winterreise. It falls to the singer and accompanist together to deliver all of the drama, narrative, and emotional freight of the piece in words and music alone. Which leads to the observe that Dave fails to make proper comment on Daniel Heide’s role here, which is outstanding. There’s a real synergy between singer and accompanist in this recording that I find exceptional. They complement one another perfectly. In a great many recordings currently available out there, one could be forgiven for thinking that the two performers are not even in the same room. In the end a lot of it is down to personal taste, but I’m wowed by this recording and I’m not usually so enamoured of Baritone renditions - this is after all a work about a young man’s inner turmoil and so often it sounds as though it is being sung by someone who is at best wise beyond their years, or at worst, a grumbling grandfather. I know it’s heresy but I don’t care for Frischer-Dieskau.’s recordings To me he sounds like he’s having a hot knitting needle inserted into his nostril. Much of Dave’s reticence about this recording seems to pivot on the fact that Schuen is possessed of a fabulous voice of which he is in near complete command. Maybe Dave is just a wee bit jealous? I know I am! Sure, this is not a perfect Winterreise, but what is? That question is what keeps me acquiring yet more of the damned things - and yes I have read Ian Bostridge’s Winterreise: Anatomy of an Obsession! I await Dave’s full repertoire appraisal with bated breath.
None at all. Heide's contribution is exactly as described--and just as mannered, for all the beauty and clear affinity between singer and pianist. Where we part company is in the suggestion that I may be jealous of Schuen's voice. Anyone who has heard my singing on this channel knows that this is a ridiculous assumption. I also see a touch of contradiction in the complaint that some performances sound "wise beyond their years," but at the same time noting this performance's numerous "special touches," which strike me as exactly what Mr. FallenOverture claims to dislike. In fact, that is exactly the problem with this performance, beautiful though it is. Finally, obsessions of any kind ARE unhealthy. They should not be confused with expertise or sympathy. More often than not, they lead to a relativistic, generic "I love this performance to the extent it's different from the other 300 or so in my collection, and it's all just equally WONDERFUL!" That is fine for the obsessive, but not terribly helpful for anyone else. The same might be said of the occasional outlier opinion, such as "I hate Fischer-Dieskau." Perfectly valid as a personal opinion, but silly as usseful advice for anyone evaluating recordings of Winterreise. F-D isn't my favorite either, but he was a very great artist and whether you like him or not isn't the point. So hang in there, the Winterreise vid is coming and I am more than cognizant that I will have to deal with the Lieder loonies (present company excepted of course). ;)
@@DavesClassicalGuideDave. Thanks for the fulsome comment. I LOVE your channel and, being no expert, I have learned so much from your clear and insightful and comprehensive posts. I hope you can detect the irony in my remarks about jealousy - I have indeed heard your singing and it's nearly as awful as my own. Bring on the great Winterreise shakedown video. I'm ready.
Absolutely! I appreciate your comments also--seriously. We'll have a good time with this one, I'm sure. Right now, I'm still submerged in Winterreises. It blows my mind how many singers made multiple versions of this. Why couldn't they quit while they were ahead? It's crazy.
@@DavesClassicalGuide yup. Just re-checked that C Pregardien one on ATMA with the (very good) chamber arrangement and he of course knows what he’s doing there but it’s different. Now I think that’s a good excuse for repetition! I’d have thought for people a bit wary of Lieder that might be an ideal way “in”, certainly makes me want to listen to it again (obsession of whoever aside, I don’t have it with this work, it’s really a tough nut to crack with just the voice and modern piano…)
Very interesting review - Winterreise can't be affected, because it interferes with the 'suffering'. That's why 'barking' is better than 'beauty' in this work. That's why I always have time for D F-D....but I will buy this version. Am intrigued.
Agree re DFD. Yes, these songs weren’t really written presupposing an “operatic” voice (unlike a few of Schumann’s) so there has to be a careful balancing of acting and straightforward singing. Some overdo the acting (I think Bostridge is guilty of this some of the time) some focus on beautiful singing. Dave’s analogy with caberet is really quite apt, and I recently saw Julian Pregardien doing Dichterliebe as though it were performance art. Interesting and enjoyable it was, but not really a happy medium between acting and singing for repeated listening!
@@murraylow4523 I saw Brostridge do Winterreise live at a university. His physical acting was very mannered and distracting. But putting that aside, his vocalism really polarized the voice faculty. The lieder and choral people loved it, but the opera people loathed it. The consensus among them was that his interpretation was fussy and that it was fussy because he has no voice: he would not be audible were he singing with an orchestra.
Perfect analysis, thanks so much!
My go to are two both with Hotter. The 54 with Moore and the shattering 63
Can’t wait for the Winterteise video.
Looking forward to the repertoire survey Dave :) I haven’t heard this, but I wonder if there isn’t a temptation in studio recordings in particular, to try to be “deep” in many of these songs by doing them daringly slow. But then the listener has to sit through all of them, and it can cumulatively become a chore. I’ve heard numerous ones, but my favourite I think is the earlier version by Christoph Pregardien with Andreas Staier (Teldec, Warner now I guess). Not everyone will like the fortepiano I suppose but it moves… (as well as moves). My heart tends to sink if the trudging in the first song (one of the longest) gets way too slow…
I hadn’t listened to Winterreise (or for that matter much lieder) for a few years, so Schuen escaped my attention. Your characterisation of the singing as “too beuatiful” was the go ahead for me to purchase it on the spot. It was a joy to luxuriate in glorious singing without having to worry too much about comparions with other singers (or for that matter, even the words, dare I say)! I suppose I will now have to revisit the many incarnations of Winterreise that exist in my collection. Then, of course, I can see this leading me down all sorts of lieder rabbit holes!
Definitely looking forward to your Winterreise video.
My personal favorite recordings are Peter Schreier with Sviatoslav Richter, and Matthias Goerne, his first one with Graham Johnson. I love Winterreise, but I don’t care for the highly revered multiple Fischer-Dieskau recordings. I know he was a legend, but, I cannot abide his voice, for reasons I probably shouldn’t try to explain…
Probably not...
Interesting. My go-to is Pears and Britten... which at 73 minutes is perhaps on your long side! Fish-Dish does it in 71. I will now have to buy this one to test the waters!
The whole point about Lieder is that they are settings of poems. If the interpretation helps to convey the emotions evoked by the poem, then it is successful. (Which is why it’s a waste of time listening to Lieder without the text). I agree that beauty per se is a secondary consideration.
Well I don't think it's a waste of time to listen to Liszts solo piano transcriptions of Schuberts Lieder. There are some truly wonderful interpreters of them. I recommend Berman, specifically.
I agree that voice plus piano is better than just piano, but Schubert composed so beautifully, that just his music without text captures the general atmosphere of a certain poem to a great extent. There is a good reason Schubert is called a poet of music. Or should I say: a musical poet.
I don't feel the bleakness and anguish of the poetry in his performance. My preference is Pears/Britten. I will be interested to learn who you recommend in due course.
I would like to hear your opinions on various singers' diction (good and bad). I have a recording of Waltraud Meier (or is it Müller) performing Chausson's Dawn/Evening Poems under Muti, where I cannot tell what language she is singing in. It's probably not Finnish, but what language is it?
No, it's not just you.I find this performance mannered, and that the beauty of the voice actually draws attention away from Schubert to the vocalist.Peter Schreier - in a 1985 live performance in Dresden with Sviatoslav Richter - demonstrates that beauty of tone isn't everything.And just to add to the intimacy of the atmosphere encouraged by Schreier's confiding way with the words, you get authentic East German cigarette-fuelled coughing.Priceless!
I agree with every word you said, Dave (and with pretty much all other comments already made here regarding this performance).
I particularly like the relatively recent performance of James Rutherford & Eugene Asti on BIS (2021). BTW, it's only 71 minutes long. My personal predilection regarding the voice in this work is for a low, dark baritone with distinct bass "undertones". Rutherford fits the bill perfectly, for my taste at least.
This is a great recommendation! Listening now - it's outstanding. Thank you so much!
@@jmarcus888 My pleasure! :)
It's beautifully , wonderfully sung indeed but it does not express any despair. If you don't know the lyrics, it may even be hard to guess the thematic of the cycle. This is as opposed to Bostridge's rendition as it can possibly be.
I completly agree with this one and I AM a Lieder-guy. 😅 His voice is amazingly beautiful and I really enjoyed his Müllerin (except for the Wiegenlied which was far to slow for my taste), so I was a little bit dissappointed with this one.
I completely agree with you. I loved his Muellerin, but had already the same impression with his Schwanengesang. Actually, I think that he is more mannered in the Winterreise. The ´R’ rolling at the beginning of Rast is really overdone, for example. Interestingly Gerhaher is as slow, but, imho, more interesting, while doing less. I hope you will mention his rendition in your survey.
Most contemporary lieder singers also perform with too much voice, in an " operatic" style. Better to scale down the voice, pay scrupulous attention to the words & deploy a wide variety of colours. Pianist is a partner, not a mere accompanist. My way in front preferred performance of this stunning cycle is Patzak & Demus.
I rarely find myself so at odds with Dave’s view as to want to voice a disagreement but this is one such time. I’m a Winterreise obsessive. I have far too many recordings and have been to way too many performances than is healthy.
As with any work, the performers have a great many artistic decisions and compromises to make in order to balance the tensions inherent within the piece. And, generally speaking, the greater the work the more tensions there are to be managed. Someone else here commented upon Winterreise being a cohesive setting of multiple poems, and I feel that is crucial to its performance - something which I think Schuen rightly gives primacy to in his interpretation. With Winterreise, Schubert created a body of songs that is neither opera nor straight leider but a collision of the two. I once heard it described as being rather like a singer-songwriter concept album, and there is some truth in that. What are characterised here as Schuen’s vocal mannerisms seem to me to be simply the choices of someone who is respecting the importance of the words and giving them due weight and attention in advancing the narrative. In an opera, some of this load would be carried by dramatic action on stage. Not so with Winterreise. It falls to the singer and accompanist together to deliver all of the drama, narrative, and emotional freight of the piece in words and music alone.
Which leads to the observe that Dave fails to make proper comment on Daniel Heide’s role here, which is outstanding. There’s a real synergy between singer and accompanist in this recording that I find exceptional. They complement one another perfectly. In a great many recordings currently available out there, one could be forgiven for thinking that the two performers are not even in the same room.
In the end a lot of it is down to personal taste, but I’m wowed by this recording and I’m not usually so enamoured of Baritone renditions - this is after all a work about a young man’s inner turmoil and so often it sounds as though it is being sung by someone who is at best wise beyond their years, or at worst, a grumbling grandfather. I know it’s heresy but I don’t care for Frischer-Dieskau.’s recordings To me he sounds like he’s having a hot knitting needle inserted into his nostril. Much of Dave’s reticence about this recording seems to pivot on the fact that Schuen is possessed of a fabulous voice of which he is in near complete command. Maybe Dave is just a wee bit jealous? I know I am!
Sure, this is not a perfect Winterreise, but what is? That question is what keeps me acquiring yet more of the damned things - and yes I have read Ian Bostridge’s Winterreise: Anatomy of an Obsession! I await Dave’s full repertoire appraisal with bated breath.
No pressure then on Dave ;)
None at all. Heide's contribution is exactly as described--and just as mannered, for all the beauty and clear affinity between singer and pianist. Where we part company is in the suggestion that I may be jealous of Schuen's voice. Anyone who has heard my singing on this channel knows that this is a ridiculous assumption. I also see a touch of contradiction in the complaint that some performances sound "wise beyond their years," but at the same time noting this performance's numerous "special touches," which strike me as exactly what Mr. FallenOverture claims to dislike. In fact, that is exactly the problem with this performance, beautiful though it is. Finally, obsessions of any kind ARE unhealthy. They should not be confused with expertise or sympathy. More often than not, they lead to a relativistic, generic "I love this performance to the extent it's different from the other 300 or so in my collection, and it's all just equally WONDERFUL!" That is fine for the obsessive, but not terribly helpful for anyone else. The same might be said of the occasional outlier opinion, such as "I hate Fischer-Dieskau." Perfectly valid as a personal opinion, but silly as usseful advice for anyone evaluating recordings of Winterreise. F-D isn't my favorite either, but he was a very great artist and whether you like him or not isn't the point. So hang in there, the Winterreise vid is coming and I am more than cognizant that I will have to deal with the Lieder loonies (present company excepted of course). ;)
@@DavesClassicalGuideDave. Thanks for the fulsome comment. I LOVE your channel and, being no expert, I have learned so much from your clear and insightful and comprehensive posts. I hope you can detect the irony in my remarks about jealousy - I have indeed heard your singing and it's nearly as awful as my own. Bring on the great Winterreise shakedown video. I'm ready.
Absolutely! I appreciate your comments also--seriously. We'll have a good time with this one, I'm sure. Right now, I'm still submerged in Winterreises. It blows my mind how many singers made multiple versions of this. Why couldn't they quit while they were ahead? It's crazy.
@@DavesClassicalGuide yup. Just re-checked that C Pregardien one on ATMA with the (very good) chamber arrangement and he of course knows what he’s doing there but it’s different. Now I think that’s a good excuse for repetition! I’d have thought for people a bit wary of Lieder that might be an ideal way “in”, certainly makes me want to listen to it again (obsession of whoever aside, I don’t have it with this work, it’s really a tough nut to crack with just the voice and modern piano…)
Very interesting review - Winterreise can't be affected, because it interferes with the 'suffering'. That's why 'barking' is better than 'beauty' in this work. That's why I always have time for D F-D....but I will buy this version. Am intrigued.
Agree re DFD. Yes, these songs weren’t really written presupposing an “operatic” voice (unlike a few of Schumann’s) so there has to be a careful balancing of acting and straightforward singing. Some overdo the acting (I think Bostridge is guilty of this some of the time) some focus on beautiful singing. Dave’s analogy with caberet is really quite apt, and I recently saw Julian Pregardien doing Dichterliebe as though it were performance art. Interesting and enjoyable it was, but not really a happy medium between acting and singing for repeated listening!
@@murraylow4523 I saw Brostridge do Winterreise live at a university. His physical acting was very mannered and distracting. But putting that aside, his vocalism really polarized the voice faculty. The lieder and choral people loved it, but the opera people loathed it. The consensus among them was that his interpretation was fussy and that it was fussy because he has no voice: he would not be audible were he singing with an orchestra.
The cover looks like Game of Thrones. "You know nothing, Jon Snow!"