Music Chat: Old Fart's Revenge--Are Classical Fans Ageist?
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- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
- It seems irrefutable that classical music, both as a profession and a hobby, finds the more mature performer/listener most congenial, and this despite the puzzlingly youth-oriented culture of its marketing and promotion. Is any of this justified?
"He looks like he's still sleeping with stuffed animals." LOL LOL LOL
That really cracked me up!
I feel like classical music is for everybody not a specific age group, gender or race. I’m 21 and I’ve loved classical music my whole life. I love other genres of music like house, Jazz, pop, rap, country and classic rock as well but classical is always on top for me. I think it’s great that there are younger performers and it helps the industry maybe reach a target that isn’t typically associated with classical music.
I think what Dave is referring to when he says it’s for old people, is that the audience is older and it will always be older. He has a video on the topic. It has a lot to do with the time commitment to classical music as well as disposable income.
That doesn’t mean other demographics can’t enjoy it, just that the market they make their money from is typically older people with more disposable income.
I’m your age and that statement initially seemed incorrect but I think I better understand what he means by this now.
Some comments from a viewer who is a decade older, though not necessarily wiser. As one who has been collecting classical recordings for many decades, the realization has dawned that I have far less time left to enjoy my extensive collection than I once did. That realization has provoked program of downsizing. Another realization, prompted in part by your reviews, Dave, is that folks my age tend to idealize artists and recordings from what we nostalgically regard as the "golden age" of classical recording. Then we're brought up short by the stunning artistry of those who look to us like kids (recent example: Kit Armstrong). Lastly, I want to express my gratitude Dave, vor your evident mission to bring younger listeners up to speed on the joys of classical music and the history of recorded music and the recording industry. A true and laudable service in a (let's face it) culturally benighted age. (that last point is the old curmudgeon in me speaking).
I'm older than DH and have been playing in semi-pro and amateur orchestras for well over 50 years. I'm an ageist in both directions: I loathe young conductors, many of whom are quite arrogant thinking that the combined experience of us older, seasoned veterans counts for nothing. I get really annoyed with young fresh out of music school players who don't know the classical literature; how their part fits in or the style of the music. But worst of all are the older players who don't know when to hang it up and hold everyone else back because they can't cut it. Instrumentalists and conductors alike need to have the courage to know when to stop and make way for a younger generation.
Dave, I have 21 years on you. I started listening to classical music when I was about 14. You, it seems, started listening when you were six, or thereabouts. The average age of concert goers when I was in college was 60-70. The average age of concert goers today is 60-70, and no, there not the same people. If you surveyed any group of concert goers to find out when they first started listening to classical music, you'd probably discover that most of them were listening all their lives. It's just that now they have the opportunity to attend concerts regularly. As to your first point, when you realized that your dentist, doctor, lawyer, candlestick maker are younger than you, how about when I realized that even the old farts are younger than me. As my late mother, of blessed memory, announced one day, 'I'm not getting old, I am old.'
I've seen too many wunderkinds come up and thrive (people like Martha Argerich, Anne-Sophie Mutter, Yo-Yo Ma, and so many others) to be all that ageist about young artists. Young people can do astonishing things, and there is nothing wrong with being astonished now and then.
The wonderkid marketing seems to be the most common model.
But from a listener's perspective I would say: "If you need to mention the age, the music isn't a wonder."
I'm one of the oldest farts on the block. My suspicion of young artists, as promoted by the major labels, is that they have to look good. Glamour is to the fore. Even at their youthful best I doubt,say, Schnabel or Klemperer would be candidates for the front cover of Vogue. If you're young and brilliant, but may not photograph well, do you stand a dog's chance?
Indeed. Stand up those who've heard of the (excellent) Tuva Semmigsen, whose career has undoubtedly been less impressive than it should have been because she has the voice but not the looks.
Great observation, I have noticed this trend as well. I want my listening based on musical cogency, not a beauty contest. I don’t need my album covers to look like they were photographed on a catwalk. Make it about the music.
If you attend classical concerts in Asia (Japan, Korea, Singapore etc) you'll discover that the average age of the audience is about half of that in America and Europe. It is quite remarkable.
By and large, there IS a definite divide between the musicians and music-lovers of today and those of a generation or two ago. It has all to do with selflessness, of being willing to give yourself over to the enormity of music, whether you are an executant or an audience member. Too many of today's "lovers" of classical music - performers and partakers - see it in terms of what it can do for them (cf. the Currentzises of the world), versus those who acknowledge music as being bigger than themselves (please, name me some major young musicians in that category). Promoters of classical music don't help by using gimmickry to build audiences, instead of relying on music's inherent power to stand on its own. Thanks, Dave, for using your forum to right the ship.
I appreciate the kind words, but I don't agree with this at all.
As always, I appreciate your total honesty - and, I’m surprised, since my point was that us “old guys” tend to have more reverence for the art than the youngins, and that a “conductor” like Currentzis uses music as a forum for his callowness, which you’ve also expressed several times. Perhaps in my zeal I didn’t choose my words carefully enough, but my intent was to support your views, not counter them. Looking forward to your future views on this and all other matters musical.
Right on, Seattle.
I can think of my own personal acquaintance with professional instrumentalists who can play their instrument but don't know the first thing about music or don't even want to know. It actually astonished me how little they knew about certain composers and their works. My local music-loving car mechanic knew more than they did.
For once a video about me. I'm just an OLD FART though without very much revenge. If it wasn't for classical music, I would have gone "SANE" years ago. THANKS DAVE !!!!!
I was a teenager back in the late 1950s with a brother who was a classical music fan. Despite my
own enjoyment of the popular (pop) music of the time, I found time to sample and increasingly
relish/appreciate classical music. Age (and patience/understanding?) adds to that enjoyment.
Perhaps today's younger generation is too impatient, too eager to be mentally satisfied and the
style of music they like today seems to reflect the transience and temporary nature of much
of life today. Ageist? Or just a fact of generational ongoing life? Some things need growing
into...and that can come with the years known as "maturity".
Really interesting and perceptive talk! One sidebar that comes to mind is that when certain iconic recordings stick around for five or six decades or more, we tend to forget how old the performers were when they made them. In 2024 when we listen to Martha Argerich's now-considered-classic Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody No. 6, do we hear it in the context of a 19-year--old's recorded debut from 1960? Most likely not. Nor do we think of Heifetz's 1955 Beethoven Concerto as "not bad for a 54-year-old fiddler." You would see the 20-something Van Cliburn's albums advertised alongside photos of the 60-something Cliburn, as if he had just recorded them.
Very true!
I am 76 years old and sing the song 76 Trombones from the Musical The Music Man. Next year when I turn 77 years old I will be singing 77 Sunset Strip
75 here. Nice to encounter someone else old enough to remember 77 Sunset Strip. It was a good show.
At 78 will you be spinning like a 78 rpm recording? yuk yuk
I recently heard Nézet-Séguin's recording of the Rachmaninov 2, and think he pulled the adagio off quite well, i.e., without haste and a feel for what a monumental adagio should sound like. At nearly 50, does he qualify as an alterkaker? (I think of him as one of the younger ones.)
Dave, Your videos are full of insight and intelligence, and above all honesty. I truly respect and trust people who appreciate irony and can laugh the loudest at themselves. [ Laughing at yourself is an impromptu exercise in Zen. Some of the outsized egos in the arts and academia can be quite annoying. And "prodigies" thing can get a little fetishy like Swifties or super fans. ] I also find the obsessive "preciousness" of classical music is irritating. Some of it is outright snobbish. When we all kind of "secretly" know a lot of classical music is boring. After a few minutes all harpsichord music starts to sound the same to me.
It's refreshing to see musicologists, scholars who say out loud what many of us think when listening to some concerto "When do we get to the juicy part? The "climax". The foreplay is tedious at this point. "
It's really comes down to those albums, "50 of the World's Greatest Classical Musical Hits", a movement, a chorus. We only want to "hear" the hooks, mostly or a few bars of some melody. The rest is setup and crescendo. Anticipation.
After seeing only a few of your videos on "classical" music I feel like I found another bright light out in the void.
I appreciate your candid, honest deconstruction and critiques. Thanks.
Thank you for watching!
Talking about ageism & classical music... when i was a wee fella, longtime ago, i went nuts over Sibelius music at a time when his reputation was in the doldrums. I was told his oeuvre was "old man's music"
When you held up that disc of the Mozart symphonies I just laughed out loud! Unbelievable! Literally looks like an actual child! 😹😹😹
For me, the "flipping time" came when all the Playboy centerfold models began getting younger than I.
Not really on point, but I'm reminded of Furtwaengler's catty quip about Menuhin:" There goes a young man with his best years behind him"...One of the wonders of early cd releases for me--the collections of the "early recordings ", mostly long forgotten, of the older pianists whom we revered: Kempff, Arrau, Backhaus, Serkin et al. And how marvellous much of their early work was! Or of singers who emerged from the scratchy grooves in staggeringly fresh voice! I hate the marketing of many of the new kids on the block, but hope I listen unprejudiced. If I squirm at the stage antics, I try to relive the concert performance on a local radio streaming service. As ever, there are those born to perform, it seems, and those born to recreate the music...
Talent is numero uno - but if the player is also physically attractive, why not celebrate youth and beauty?
We get older and our physical appeal fails, but no reason to bring everyone who's younger down with us!
A question, Dave. I've got quite a collection of classical music by now, but it's still only a fraction of the vast amounts of cd's you have. Still, I haven't been able to listen to all my cd's. That's no problem. I like to have a library (same as with books) that I can pick and choose from when something triggers my interest, indeed often through a video of yours.
But... as I see you go through your collection - especially the 'overflow' I get the impression that you've actually listened to EVERYTHING. Is that so, and if so, how do you do it? I gather you have another job as well besides being a critic. Whatever the answer: I'm in awe...
And a question about the topic of this video: Mozart and Mendelssohn were child prodigies. In their time, did they have to deal with 'age prejudice' as well?
Thanks for your message. First, I mentioned in some of those videos there there are a few discs I haven't heard yet, but I have listened to 99% of them. How did I do it? Well, it took about 50 years...
As to Mozart and Mendelssohn, I really don't know if they had to deal with age prejudice. Mozart was paraded around and exploited like a circus freak, while Mendelssohn was very carefully sheltered and nurtured by his (very wealthy) family.
Sensible argument. The “classical” music world does of course need new blood in order to survive. I think the problem is the unnecessary hype surrounding new talent which is often not justified and ultimately false.
Precisely! By the way, for some reason it's "alte Kacker" but "junge Pischer" 🙂🙂
Never really thought about it but I noticed out of 2,000 or so vinyls and CD's of Western and Indian classical, jazz and pop only about 5% by performers and composers q born after 1960.
I'm an old fart to - and certainly not trolling here - been listening to classical music in the dark for over 65 years.
Thinking about the 'young', apparently Artificial Intelligence is now making 'music' - symphonies, Beethoven X.
Regarding your video: 'Repertoire: The BEST Shostakovich 5th Symphony' and your description of Shostakovich's symphonic genius.
How can the inexperienced, including AI even approach this mastery we expect.
Of course there are young geniuses - Shostakovich was young once.
Anyhow, about AI, or even very young composers, do many of us even have time left to try and appreciate these new works.
Perhaps they could enrich our life or perhaps might just disappoint.
Perhaps they are for the next generation.
From one "old fart" (74) to another (62), you're a national treasure!
I'm one too..at 76. An OLD FART that is not a National Treasure....
@@FREDGARRISON 75 here. 62 is still in the early stages of old fartedness. He needs a few more years to mature. 😁
@@FREDGARRISON Ha ha...Same here!
@@leestamm3187 May you never run out of "GAS" !!!!
With judging (or tasting) it's the same with music as it is with all other things. It's the best if you don't know the details of the recording (or the label of the wine f.e.). This is the way to surprise yourself. As soon as you know anything about the object you're prejudging...! Cheers!
I’m sure you are right about the demographics of most classical listeners. I guess I was an exception-I was fully in love with classical music by my teens and have been ever since. I know a few teenagers now that love classical music as well. Don’t assume that the young don’t like classical music-some do. I think a lot more of them would if it was more present, and if adults didn’t try to dumb it down to get them hooked.
And, quite honestly, it’s partly an issue of parenting and culture. With the endless supply of instant gratification style garbage entertainment and social media-and our own lack of discipline as adults-it’s not surprising that many kids (and their parents) don’t have the patience for a beautifully played Bruckner symphony. In this Kardashian era, people (young and old) haven’t much use for the rigor of following a serious musical argument.
Why would I assume that? I was hooked when I was 6, but the demographics are what they are. And, by the way, most people don't have the patience for a Bruckner symphony, beautifully played or not, and who can blame them? They had no patience for them in Bruckner's day either.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Fair enough. 😁
Some critics are heaping praise on the 2024 Jansen/Makela recording of the Sibelius violin concerto. Have not heard it yet. Has the "Ken Doll" contributed to an artistic success?
I dont understand how these 20 something conductors can POSSIBLY have the repertoire necessary to confront a really really mature orchestra!
I was exceptionally well trained and I didnt have repertoire worthy of mention until my 40s or later!
I'm right there with you.
I do think in the core of classical nerdom, where we reside, there can definatly be a dismissal of youngish artists of which i myself have been guilty. It was only through doing blind listening (by shuffling streaming playlists) that i realized i loved Igor Levit's Beethoven. I was so put off by the hip young person marketing behind him . All the more silly that i had this prejudice given that he's actually a couple years older than me.
Young musicians should not be judged by lower standards because of their age. They should, however, be given more slack for any missteps. The latter is much harder when they are thrust prematurely into the spotlight, especially in our media and socia-media driven age. Current conditions are particularly hard for young conductors. They start with little hands on experience and learn mostly on the job, unlike instrumentalists and singers, who started honing their craft long before being exposed to publicity.
They should not be given any slack when they make recordings that have to compete with other, finer versions of the same repertoire. Youth is not excuse for incompetence. If you purchased a car that didn't work would you give the manufacturer slack because the company was new to the market, or would you expect value for money spent?
@@DavesClassicalGuide Dave, I fully agree with you. I misused the word slack because English isn't my native language. Let me try again. The performances of young promising musicians, especially conductors, should be judged no differently due to their age. But an occasional flawed performance or recording or shouldn't get in the way of second chances in their careers. That said, I don't understand why some young overhyped conductors prematurely assume positions of power based on future promise: sometimes the latter remains unfulfilled. Just as I don't understand why high profile opera houses sometimes appoint chief conductors with limited pit experience. Paris with Dudamel is a most recent example.
We called the vocal majors at our school the mouth majors.
You know you’re old
when dentists seem young.
One "old fart" told me the most glamourous women pianists of his time were Myra Hess, Wanda Landowska and Gina Bachauer, not exactly lookers, but quality was all that mattered to him. I tend to agree.
I've heard several interviews with Myra Hess, and you couldn't ask for a more delightful, witty and wise musician.
One thing I look for in music making is individuality and personality. Of course technical excellence is preferred but not necessarily a deal breaker. One can look back at young performers who had it all. The 1917 Heifetz recordings, made in quite good sound for their vintage have both. Unfortunately some contemporary performers, and indeed some from the past, try to impress their audiences with, let me say, aspects unrelated to meaningful music making. Costumes, odd hair color and unnecessary mannerisms are diversions that have nothing to do with music making and everything to do with cultivating an image. And I can understand the urge to indulge audiences who are often swayed by first impressions. Artists know there are few spots at the top of the ladder of fame. Then comes the performance. Artistry is all too often falsely identified in terms of speed. Some young pianists or violinists demonstrate their physical dexterity to such extremes as to distort the music they perform. There are many other examples of what I am trying to describe. Older performers likewise depend upon their sage and wise experience to continue in the limelight that they have basked in for too many years. Some bring real value to the stage. Others perhaps should teach the new generation about developing individuality and personality to their art.
Hilarious - and spot on.
When I attend a concert and see someone in the audience younger than me I'm shocked, and I'm 72. I wonder sometimes how classical music will survive the looming demographic winter.
It will flourish. What on earth are you worried about?
@@DavesClassicalGuide I hope you’re right. But I think this explains in part why the Marketing Departments of major labels and indeed many orchestras are incessantly trying to appeal to younger audiences. They need young blood to replace we old farts and frankly I don’t think it’s working. But you never know.
As old as any of us feel, isn't it reassuring in a way that Herbie Blomstedt has returned to the podium? I read hes scheduled to conduct the Philharmonie de' Paris, Dresden, San Francisco (in January), and has a full calendar scheduled through 2025. Let's hope he makes it. He will be 98 next year.
He should have retired years (decades?) ago, unless he decides to do something that isn't yet another remake of stuff he did previously.
@@DavesClassicalGuide In San Francisco His program is Schubert 5 and Brahms 1. Maybe we will finally get a memorable Brahms 1 out of him -- only his Brahms 4 with Liepzig seems great.
I LOVE yiddish!
I've found that most superannuated conductors don't get wiser and deeper as they age. They merely get slower. I'm sure that Lorin Maazel got better than when he was conducting the NBC Symphony at the age of 11, but the adult Maazel was vastly superior to the aged Maazel who crawled through whatever he was conducting. OTH, Stokowski often got better and gave more straightforward interpretations as he got older.
Historically, many singers with huge voices hit their prime around age 40. It takes time and smarts to control those big instruments. But there are also vocalists who start losing it at 40. In the opera house, youth rules. That's why Lucine Amara's age discrimination lawsuit against the Met was so absurd. It was even more clueless that she won.
"He looks like he still sleeps with stuffed animals." 😂😂😂
So, is the audience for classical music literally dying out?
Every audience is dying out.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Audiences die out, new ones takes their place. It is my belief, at 80, that most people don't have an emotional or intellectual response to classical music, but that ten percent of the population does (or whatever the percentage is) and always have. I think it's a disposition of the brain at birth to predict a love of it or a total indifference to its appeal. And it's that percentage that has kept it alive since the Renaissance.
They have been saying that since I started going to concerts 45 years ago. Everyone should be past 60 by now, or dead, but it hasn't happened yet.
You're 62? You're not old. Wait till to you hit 76 like me, but I'm not willing to concede that I'm even old.
I think the classical music industry is more like Pop/Rock than you give it credit for. Fans love to come out for the latest soloist or conductor. And regardless of how they look, Bruce Springsteen, The Rolling Stones and Bob Dylan are still touring to packed houses. There is ageism in classical music and that's how few fans want to hear the newer, younger composers. Which in classical time is about 100 years.