Fun real world test! Important to keep in mind that any bike, especially a TT bike, will make you faster over time and not immediately. One of the most important things about a TT bike and an optimized aero fit road bike is the rider's ability to put power out in the aero position. In order to get full benefit out of the changes, the rider will need to practice hard efforts in the aero position. This takes time and tinkering. A practiced time trial position on a TT bike will be faster than an aero road position every single time.
"More sustainable" is relative. I find it WAYYY more comfortable to sit on the TT bars of my speed concept than in a aero position on my road bike, you just never ride TT bikes so, for you, its more comfortable to ride how you have for years.
Same experience here. I ride an aero road bike and a dedicated TT/tri bike. On the road bike, I use the tucked-in aero hoods position as often as possible but cannot sustain it all the time during a ride. On the TT bike, I use the extensions all the time except for slow segments and when there is need to brake. This includes longer training rides 3-5h and Ironman bike legs (180k). It is a matter of fitting the exension cups so the ellbows are placed perfectly to carry the upper body's weight so the arms stay completely relaxed. Regarding speed differences: During these long rides, I move in the same zone 2 power window on both bikes during training and I always find me being faster on the TT bike, rather >= 3%, and my power numbers are significantly lower than these shown in the video. Anyway, keep on the good work!
The difference between a TT bike and a road bike is greater than what is shown. Training on the TT bike, and a proper fit make a lot of difference. Don't discount a good aero helmet like a POC Tempor or Giro Aerohead. At speeds over 40k a disc wheel saves a lot of watts. Lots of TT bike speed being left on the table here. The rider position at 3:40 isn't terrible, but it's not great either.
also they are riding with straight arms compared to the much more aerodynamic raised bar ("praying mantis")... this is a game changer, cause it's easier to drop into the shoulders, lowering the whole upper body...
To be fair, if you're comparing a road bike to TT bike, wheels, clothing and helmet should be the same. But yes, a TT bike is much more than 1% faster. I have a similar hip angle on my road bike on the hoods as my TT bike. Doodling at 220w, my TT bike is a good mph faster. At 320w, it's closer to 3mph(8ish percent faster). That's with similar box section rims and the same exact tires. Of course, this is flat road riding.
That's stupid to say a tt bike must have tt gear to work. Bike vs bike. Adding more variables ruins the test. Throw in 2 extra variables and it's no longer even a test anymore.
Whoa - EJ lives! I was wondering if Jeff would ever let him come back out from under the stairs! Definitely an expected first impression on a TT bike from a roadie. Of course conditioning makes all the difference. If you're riding TTs and want to actually win one day - get a TT bike. I found it more than funny Jeff decided to cite the Giro bike swap as an example of a road bike's climbing prowess - and then showing GT losing pink in his swap onto a road bike!
I predominantly race TT's, but after a season off due to back problems I raced this season in the road bike category. I found holding the aerohoods position tough after about a mile. I tend to end up switching positions from the drops to various hoods positions throughout the ride. The higher the wind or the faster the course, the larger the gap to riders that are generally comparable to myself. The rider that has been dominating the TT road bike category locally has got an amazing position and looks like he holds it solidly over 25miles. Obviously something of a conditioning issue for myself with my doggy back but not something that has particularly improved through the season. I recently built up an aero- road bike having raced on an R5 rim brake bike all season and did a bit of aero testing last weekend and even in the aerohoods position I am giving up a reasonable amount in cda to my TT position ( though I did have a saddle bag and just wasn't in a skinsuit so not like for like). I found the aerohoods was around 0.26 cda upright hoods over .30 & drops somewhere in between (kask aeroroad helmet + 1 road bottle). On a TT bike with full TT skinsuit helmet, no bottle my cda is under .20. Find getting really low on road bike tough - numb hands etc with my current back limitations also a season off hasn't helped re-waist size!
did he say they were completely done working together tho? It seemed like they might still collab in the future, EJ just wanted to become an actual content creator rather than the editor...
I really appreciate these real-world tests. You're improving your methodology as time goes on. It gives us a better understanding of what each bit of tech provides. I do wonder what the difference would have been if you swapped the same wheels between the 2 bikes. Also, your position seems like it's just a touch lower on the aero bike, although I could be wrong. It's definitely narrower. Quite surprised at how close the results were! I also wonder what the results would be on a Scott Addict.
I have about an 8" drop to my aerobars(higher than it used to be before UCI rule changes) and I've always been able to live in them. Done plenty of +5-7hr rides rarely getting out of them. I can sit on my hoods for a long time but not nearly as long as my aerobars
Did you use the same tyres, wheels, tyre pressure and gear ratio? Use the same power meter too. Tour de France, Jonas Vingegaard beat Tadej Pogačar on his TT bike with a very big margin. 1 minute, 38 seconds back. Everything depends on the rider.
The Coefficient Cycling Road Race bars have a way for you to get into that aero position with arms central and still is UCI legal. I wonder at the higher speeds if that could close the gap.
You're TT position can get better, all the pros are doing the praying mantis where fists and forearms are up against the face practically 😂 which is not replicable on a road bike
I was actually wondering recently how a paceline of 3 or 4 people compares in speed and watts required compared to the same number of people doing some pulls. More than anything I was wondering if a 3/4 person team made a break early and ran a consistent paceline can they stay away or will they get caught.
There's an error in your post-test stats. You compared EJ's average power to Mitch and Jeff's average power. Being that EJ is a larger individual, EJ will need to displace more watts to move his bigger mass in comparison to Mitch and Jeff, making this not so much an apples-to-apples comparison when it comes to average power.
Time trial bikes are way faster than road bikes, in my experience. Even with clip on aero bars on my my road bike, I averaged 22.5 mph for 6 hours at 240w. Other people I know my same height and heavier than me on time trial bikes are averaging 25 mph for 230w.
Jeff, perhaps you're a little too close to your video, but as a viewer, the minor inconsistencies confuse your message a bit: 1) You were merely conducting a Benchmark of the TT vs Road bike - there was no optimization here. 2) Your comment in passing about the position is worth highlighting - if you can maintain 325W vs 300W for 3 hrs, for example, on the Road bike...the TT advantage for non-dedicated TT'ers may be immaterial. 3) You say you're going to "catch" EJ (in which case you should tell us what kind of head start you gave him...), when what you mean is you're just comparing times.
all good points, and thanks for the feedback: 1. I probably should have thrown in a non optimized 'standard' road position. 2. True, getting used to the position is huge, and any gains by the TT bike are lost if you can't maintain the same power. 3. i misspoke, it wasn't about 'catching' it was about comparing times.
Bro really? I would say you now found out, that riding a TT is also skill based and you can't just buy a bike and be fast. That position is total trash, I mean come on, you can't be serious? At least compare a rider that has any TT experience at all. My positions are quite optimized for an amateur on both Road and TT bike and I can assure you that results would differ immensely between the two at 300w.
why can I produce so much less watts at a much higher heart rate on my time trial bike? I can only hold 80-85% of my FTP for an hour on my TT bike - I am faster yes, but not much and its less comfy :-( if I could produce my real FTP on the TT bike I would be insanely fast!
I don't even mind that this is the same test as GCN did...Science is seeing if results can be replicated. I don't just want to take GCN's word for something...
Further proof that unless you're a pro triathlete getting paid to race (and in that case your bike is probably free anyway), it's really a waste of money to buy a TT bike. Just throw some TT bars on your road bike and off you go.
Fun real world test! Important to keep in mind that any bike, especially a TT bike, will make you faster over time and not immediately. One of the most important things about a TT bike and an optimized aero fit road bike is the rider's ability to put power out in the aero position. In order to get full benefit out of the changes, the rider will need to practice hard efforts in the aero position. This takes time and tinkering. A practiced time trial position on a TT bike will be faster than an aero road position every single time.
Would be cool to see another comparison of adding TT aero bars to a road bike and see how close that would be
"More sustainable" is relative. I find it WAYYY more comfortable to sit on the TT bars of my speed concept than in a aero position on my road bike, you just never ride TT bikes so, for you, its more comfortable to ride how you have for years.
Same experience here. I ride an aero road bike and a dedicated TT/tri bike. On the road bike, I use the tucked-in aero hoods position as often as possible but cannot sustain it all the time during a ride. On the TT bike, I use the extensions all the time except for slow segments and when there is need to brake. This includes longer training rides 3-5h and Ironman bike legs (180k). It is a matter of fitting the exension cups so the ellbows are placed perfectly to carry the upper body's weight so the arms stay completely relaxed.
Regarding speed differences: During these long rides, I move in the same zone 2 power window on both bikes during training and I always find me being faster on the TT bike, rather >= 3%, and my power numbers are significantly lower than these shown in the video.
Anyway, keep on the good work!
I remember when Simon beat the entire gcn crew on a tt bike
To be fair, Si is probably the strongest presenter on GCN
while this one is the proper test having done the same power
@@quarkonium3795 Ollie beats him on the climbs now, but not back then
@@trainingcyclist what? It was a tt race fastest time won. It was like 4 or 5 vs si
@@timtaylor9590 yes , meaning they do their respective power outputs instead of of a control one.. like what NorCal cycling did
The difference between a TT bike and a road bike is greater than what is shown. Training on the TT bike, and a proper fit make a lot of difference. Don't discount a good aero helmet like a POC Tempor or Giro Aerohead. At speeds over 40k a disc wheel saves a lot of watts. Lots of TT bike speed being left on the table here. The rider position at 3:40 isn't terrible, but it's not great either.
also they are riding with straight arms compared to the much more aerodynamic raised bar ("praying mantis")... this is a game changer, cause it's easier to drop into the shoulders, lowering the whole upper body...
To be fair, if you're comparing a road bike to TT bike, wheels, clothing and helmet should be the same. But yes, a TT bike is much more than 1% faster. I have a similar hip angle on my road bike on the hoods as my TT bike. Doodling at 220w, my TT bike is a good mph faster. At 320w, it's closer to 3mph(8ish percent faster). That's with similar box section rims and the same exact tires. Of course, this is flat road riding.
Also pretty dumb to test a tri bike built for higher yaw. Even Cervelo states their P5 is faster than this bike
Good points. Eyeball test shows some positioning gains missing that will only magnify at higher kph
That's stupid to say a tt bike must have tt gear to work. Bike vs bike. Adding more variables ruins the test.
Throw in 2 extra variables and it's no longer even a test anymore.
Whoa - EJ lives! I was wondering if Jeff would ever let him come back out from under the stairs!
Definitely an expected first impression on a TT bike from a roadie. Of course conditioning makes all the difference. If you're riding TTs and want to actually win one day - get a TT bike.
I found it more than funny Jeff decided to cite the Giro bike swap as an example of a road bike's climbing prowess - and then showing GT losing pink in his swap onto a road bike!
This is a video they shot before they split in fact it was recorded before intelligentia.
EJ's training camp is his new channel, he explains the drama with Jeff
I would imagine you could be faster on the TT bike if you spent time training on it. Not to mention getting a bike fit on the TT bike.
yeha 100 percent, he should do 100 miles on his scott vs 100 miles on a tri bike and see the time difference.
You are right, this is a bro-science...
His TT bike fit could be a lot faster and is not used to riding on TT bike
Mitch has a good tuck on the road bike! 92 miles solo - dang!
I predominantly race TT's, but after a season off due to back problems I raced this season in the road bike category. I found holding the aerohoods position tough after about a mile. I tend to end up switching positions from the drops to various hoods positions throughout the ride. The higher the wind or the faster the course, the larger the gap to riders that are generally comparable to myself. The rider that has been dominating the TT road bike category locally has got an amazing position and looks like he holds it solidly over 25miles. Obviously something of a conditioning issue for myself with my doggy back but not something that has particularly improved through the season. I recently built up an aero- road bike having raced on an R5 rim brake bike all season and did a bit of aero testing last weekend and even in the aerohoods position I am giving up a reasonable amount in cda to my TT position ( though I did have a saddle bag and just wasn't in a skinsuit so not like for like). I found the aerohoods was around 0.26 cda upright hoods over .30 & drops somewhere in between (kask aeroroad helmet + 1 road bottle). On a TT bike with full TT skinsuit helmet, no bottle my cda is under .20. Find getting really low on road bike tough - numb hands etc with my current back limitations also a season off hasn't helped re-waist size!
Obviously the bulk of this was filmed before whatever it was happened between Jeff and EJ. Such a shame, but I guess what’s done is done.
what happened?
did he say they were completely done working together tho? It seemed like they might still collab in the future, EJ just wanted to become an actual content creator rather than the editor...
yeah can really tell the editing is different, esp with the buzzing in the background. sad :(
He's not missed lol
@@peterzwegat4834I heard it was because Jeff wouldn’t move his pontoon boat and EJ was mad since his riverboat couldn’t dock
when he flipped the lenses up
:O
Mitch is such a player
I really appreciate these real-world tests. You're improving your methodology as time goes on. It gives us a better understanding of what each bit of tech provides. I do wonder what the difference would have been if you swapped the same wheels between the 2 bikes. Also, your position seems like it's just a touch lower on the aero bike, although I could be wrong. It's definitely narrower. Quite surprised at how close the results were! I also wonder what the results would be on a Scott Addict.
dind´t the gcn guys do that 2 years ago
probably, they have thousands and thousands of videos 😂
Not to be that guy.... but... that is a triathlon-bike, and not a (UCI sanctioned) time-trial bike. Regardless, super cool video as always.
I have about an 8" drop to my aerobars(higher than it used to be before UCI rule changes) and I've always been able to live in them. Done plenty of +5-7hr rides rarely getting out of them. I can sit on my hoods for a long time but not nearly as long as my aerobars
Did you use the same tyres, wheels, tyre pressure and gear ratio? Use the same power meter too. Tour de France, Jonas Vingegaard beat Tadej Pogačar on his TT bike with a very big margin. 1 minute, 38 seconds back. Everything depends on the rider.
That's a tri bike, optimized for higher yaw and storing water/food. Cervelo is open about that bike being slower than the P5.
Shouldn't it be faster since it fills up more frame drag
The Coefficient Cycling Road Race bars have a way for you to get into that aero position with arms central and still is UCI legal. I wonder at the higher speeds if that could close the gap.
I think with practice, a proper fit, and Aero equipment a TT bike wins any day
You're TT position can get better, all the pros are doing the praying mantis where fists and forearms are up against the face practically 😂 which is not replicable on a road bike
It is with higher.clip on bars.
Crazy aero road bike, but the TT bike doesn't even get a disk wheel?
lol remember when they did that on GCN? I remember.
Glad to see u kept the friendship
what happened between who and who i got 0 info about anything😮
What happened?
Hi Jeff! Great video, one note I had was when comparing your power to EJs I think using watts/kg would be better.
W/kg means nothing unless you are going uphill.
I was actually wondering recently how a paceline of 3 or 4 people compares in speed and watts required compared to the same number of people doing some pulls. More than anything I was wondering if a 3/4 person team made a break early and ran a consistent paceline can they stay away or will they get caught.
There's an error in your post-test stats. You compared EJ's average power to Mitch and Jeff's average power. Being that EJ is a larger individual, EJ will need to displace more watts to move his bigger mass in comparison to Mitch and Jeff, making this not so much an apples-to-apples comparison when it comes to average power.
this test needs to be run with WorldTour pros who live on both road and TT bikes.
2:34 Hard cringe
Anyone else hate when Norcal Cycling uploads videos UNDER 10 minutes? LOL
My triceps burn so much when I do the aero position in my road bike.
Jeff, did we cut the sleeves shorter on that Rule 28 skinsuit?
You showed AP for the 2 up TTT; NP would have been an interesting stat to view also.
my plan was to do that, but the difference was about the same. he didn't ride the best individual TT 😂 I think he overcooked it on the way out.
@@NorCalCycling ahha! Classic rookie mistake, he did the same in another video ah well :D
Interesting. The difference between my speed on my TT bike vs my ride bike is much more than 1%.
You have to take into account that you need to ride a TT bike and practice on it. It's hard to be fast on that
You guys are far more used to road bikes than tt bikes, so the difference is less visible
Proof that weight is still important sometimes
its def not more sustainable on your road bike, you're just not used to the position
What are this foldup-glasses?
Where did mitch buy his shades
Time trial bikes are way faster than road bikes, in my experience. Even with clip on aero bars on my my road bike, I averaged 22.5 mph for 6 hours at 240w. Other people I know my same height and heavier than me on time trial bikes are averaging 25 mph for 230w.
How can you be heavier pushing lower wattage riding at higher speed
Never clicked a video so fast
Now do duo drafting tt vs duo drafting road.
Always wondered why no one put drops on tt bike
its great to see EJ in a NorCal video, keep it up! 🤙
this was filmed before he left
Norcal doing GCN
Jeff, perhaps you're a little too close to your video, but as a viewer, the minor inconsistencies confuse your message a bit: 1) You were merely conducting a Benchmark of the TT vs Road bike - there was no optimization here.
2) Your comment in passing about the position is worth highlighting - if you can maintain 325W vs 300W for 3 hrs, for example, on the Road bike...the TT advantage for non-dedicated TT'ers may be immaterial.
3) You say you're going to "catch" EJ (in which case you should tell us what kind of head start you gave him...), when what you mean is you're just comparing times.
all good points, and thanks for the feedback:
1. I probably should have thrown in a non optimized 'standard' road position.
2. True, getting used to the position is huge, and any gains by the TT bike are lost if you can't maintain the same power.
3. i misspoke, it wasn't about 'catching' it was about comparing times.
@@NorCalCycling Thanks for the receptivity.
@ 2:33 r u srs lmaaaaaaooooooooo
ALMADEN REPRESENT!!!
As far as I know that is not a TT bike, but a triathlon (UCI-Illegal) bike
thought u and ej broke up?
This is before they did since this was filmed before intelligentsia
what happened?
This is excellent content!
I got a 100 bucks can I buy the cervelo off u?
lmao I don't even think 100 is enough to buy the tires 😅
@@play_stationjr8636 100 ain't enough to buy A pedal
Bro really? I would say you now found out, that riding a TT is also skill based and you can't just buy a bike and be fast. That position is total trash, I mean come on, you can't be serious? At least compare a rider that has any TT experience at all. My positions are quite optimized for an amateur on both Road and TT bike and I can assure you that results would differ immensely between the two at 300w.
NorCal Cycling does science.
Ej is still here!
why can I produce so much less watts at a much higher heart rate on my time trial bike? I can only hold 80-85% of my FTP for an hour on my TT bike - I am faster yes, but not much and its less comfy :-( if I could produce my real FTP on the TT bike I would be insanely fast!
I don't even mind that this is the same test as GCN did...Science is seeing if results can be replicated. I don't just want to take GCN's word for something...
Nope
Wasn’t a fan of ej. I like jeff
Further proof that unless you're a pro triathlete getting paid to race (and in that case your bike is probably free anyway), it's really a waste of money to buy a TT bike. Just throw some TT bars on your road bike and off you go.
Great to see you and EJ working together again!
Probably filmed a while ago, putting out to satisfy sponsor contract.
Recently i wanted to buy a new garmin, I rapidly noticed that the pro closet had by far the best prices on the market. Buy The pro closet🚴♂
So essentially your speed sniffer nose that sniffs the best wheel to draft is better than all that marketing BS on the new SL8 with speed sniffer™ 😂🤣🥸