The tire being wider than the rim is the reason for the result. Once the air separates from the tire (pretty much right away if the rim is smaller), you can't get it to stick to the rim again. Therefore, the aero profile of both of these wheels was functionally the same. If you were to match the tire to the rim as close as possible (but never letting the tire be wider), you'd then get a meaningful test. As for the "expensive" vs the "cheap" carbon wheels, all that really matters, ceteris paribus, is the wheel profile. If you got a $2000 pair of wheels with the same profile and put the same tire on it, you'd be within the margin of error. (Maybe a little faster due to theoretically better bearings.)
After watching both wheel comparison videos now you got me wondering what’s the real difference between the stock aluminum wheels and the carbon wheels at the price point you’re recommending ($1000-$1500).
I upgraded to DT Swiss aluminium. only reason as my previous wheel at front was 2 decades old technology with 36 spokes. I would never go for carbon and spend tons as it's purely for professional needs.
The stock alloy wheels on my Giant were over 2kg. Upgrading those to AUD$800 Prime carbons dropped weight to 1500g and made the bike 1-2 gears faster/easier up undulations I’d become used to on my commute and local routes. Much better hubs, no longer feel like riding through treacle as soon as the road rises even slightly. Definitely worthwhile in my case.
thought the same, looks like that aluminum wheel in this video is too good to be "stock wheel". It's looks like good quality wheel for its price though.
What carbon wheels did you buy exactly? I have Tcr Advanced 2 Pro Compact, its stock wheelset P-R2 is horrible, rear wheel hub is wobbling and the whole rear wheel with cassette is wobbling about 1.5-2mm, the rolling isn't perfect at all.
The standard wheels on my bike did not only wieght a lot, they also were very opposite of stiff. Did feel like they would brake into half when pedaling compared to the Campagnolo wheels.
I bought the $900 Hunt 35mm. Everything was instantly faster/better compared to my stock aluminum wheels. The speed increase was most noticeable in corners. I shaved 1 kg off the bike.
Here's a thing, if you went for alu wheels around the same price point as the icans or similar carbon wheels, the hubs on the aluminium wheels are likely to be better, and the best aluminium wheels are likely to be lighter to. The rims would be easier to replace, and rim brakes would be a good option too. So, my advice would be go for good aluminium wheels and forget about expensive carbon wheels untill you good enough to be paid to race.
I put to the test HED wheels with carbon fairing against Fulcrum Zero aluminum wheels, each over a 60km run (move time = riding time). I was shocked the the HED wheels were slower by 1.5km/h and required more watts. The HED wheels had also wider tires (25 vs 23) which should have been faster.
you are comparing a pair of crappy carbon wheels against the best alloy wheels money can buy, not to mention that the fulcrum racing zeros have ceramic bearings.
Now compare those aluminum wheels to the $600 Elitewheels Edge weighing 1291 grams. I'm sure you will see a benefit on the climb going from 1800g to 1291g wheelset.
Can't believe this video was launched so quickly after the previous one. Would love to see the difference versus those same aluminum wheels versus carbon ones that are in the $1,500 range
This was great. I'd also like to see a video comparing stock wheels on a 105 level bike with after market aluminum wheels like the Boyd Altamont or Hunt alloy sl that are quite a bit lighter than the stock wheels on bikes at that level.
I got my rim brake bike used and bought a pair of new 35mm deep aluminium Campagnolo Scirocco wheels for it. They look fast and sound fast, because of the wind noise at ~35kph and that's all that matters for an amateur hobbyist like me :) Carbon would probably be faster on the flats but I've had the brakes already overheat on a downhill recently and could feel the decline in braking power. Carbon wheels with a carbon rim braking surface would probably perform worse there.
THIS is why I bemoan, and HATE all of these wheel manufacturers (Campy included!) for totally doing away with carbon deep section, but ALLOY braking surface, NARROW outside width, rim brake wheels (like the Campy Bullet, and original Mavic Cosmic Carbones from way back). You also would not need to be swapping brake pads every time you changed the wheels either with these above mentioned wheels, like is required with swapping an ALL alloy wheel and a carbon braking surface carbon section wheel. As it is, I am happy with their results above, having just picked up a pair of Fulcrum (yup, owned by Campy) Racing 4s, 35mm deep ALLOY rim brake wheels with a Campy Record 10 compatible freehub (almost non-existent in the states nowadays!) for less than I paid for my current use Mavic Cosmic Elite alloy wheels, 12 YEARS AGO!! Besides the 'looks' of a 50 mm deep section carbon rim, I want them for the effing SOUND that they make going down the road, as it is motivation for going faster, especially when paired with Vittoria Corsa 320 TPI tires, and a latex inner tube-pure HEAVEN!! Since my circa 2000 frame will not even think about accepting the new 'aero standard' 30-35mm WIDTH wheels at the bottom bracket, chain stay clearance area (unlike all of you with your current year, ultra big buck, super wide clearance, disc braked, crunchy carbon frames), and I must seek out much narrower old school wheels (like the Bullets if I want a deep carbon section). I realize that they will never ever be aero at all, especially when paired with 25C tires (like the absolute reverse of a good, aero, 'NACA' profile!), but the aesthetics and that sound are enough to make me search for them, used. 😉
Bruh.... this should be pinned as the top search when newbies like myself go looking for "budget carbon wheels". All the bigger UK channels more or less say the same to rather save for a decent wheelset, but with them it always feels like there's an agenda, whereas this feels like legit good advice.
Best bargain for carbon wheels is getting something built from Light Bicycle. I own two sets laced to Carbon Ti hubs with Sapim CX Ray spokes. Absolutely amazing wheels for the price and since they do their own carbon lay ups they have tons of profile options and customization. I’m about to order a third set for climbing.
I was considering changing from stock DT Swiss PR1600 spline wheels to carbon, won't say which company but the DT swiss have 20 mm inner width and the carbon 19 mm. I know it's just one mm but IMHO makes a difference. There is zero evidence changing to carbon and narrowing the internal rim width (and hence the tire) improves performance. There are other aluminum rims with wider internals as well, of course.
This is very interesting. I had to go back and look at the results and would agree that the difference appears to be more with conditions than the wheels themselves. The faster times came both times on the second lap. $500 = 2 years of training which is > than equipment change.
one of my favorite wheels was the aluminium Campagnolo Shamal wheel. They rolled incredibly well and felt great riding. Unfortunately the bike got stolen using it to commute to work.
Yeah, I have a pair of Campagnolo Zonda C17, and they roll really well, so when I am in a group I usually have to brake while the others pedal to keep the same speed :)
the ican wheels are only 25 mm external width. a 28mm tire is too wide and likely neutralizes most of the aero benefits. would be interested in the results with a narrower 23mm tire
Love your content, especially on Crit strategies. I watched your first video on the wheels and started watching this one when a thought (yes, those do occur in my brain from time to time 😂) popped up in my head. An important factor when considering which wheelset to buy isn’t just the material and depth of rim but also the hubs each wheel has. How about for your next video find a set of rims that are the same but with two different quality hubs. Another possibility is to lace the ICAN’s to a better quality hun and do a comparison to the Rovals again. The alloy wheels could very well have much better hubs than the ICAN’s thus making them comparable. Looking forward to more racing content next season!
One thing to consider is you really need a frame with a rear triangle wide enough to accommodate the newer aero carbon wheels which need a minimum 30-35mm near the bottom bracket. The cheaper carbon wheels in the 23-25 mm width may not give enough of an airfoil until you reach about 25 mph
with these tests, it's mainly about aerodynamics, but I think other aspects - stiffness in cornering, especially on descents, standing up climbing or sprinting - would be interesting to consider. I have a pair of ultegra aluminum wheels that work great (asymmetric rims and pretty wide modern width, decent weight, pretty good braking for rim brakes, Shimano's super reliable quick releases), but the one area they feel a little lacking is aggressive cornering
@@NorCalCycling I think aero wheels are more effective on the wind tunnel or track race conditions where there is no crosswind at all, but in real life conditions, deep section aero wheels with crosswinds, they lose their aero advantages. That's what I call a "marginal loss" on the aero wheels.
The ICAN AERO's are way better than the alpha's for 200 dollar more. Light and fast, but maybe not as stiff as I would like. Upgraded to the new Winspace wheels, and this ones are way stiffer than the ICAN ones. Also for 500 dollars you can find better aluminium wheels, right?
First thing I did years ago, was to replace stock aluminium wheels with better aluminium wheels. I have them till now. Ultegra WH-6700. Fun part today is the world shifted to wider tires with less air inside, so it's harder to get the 21-23mm ones. All starts out of 25, and these after inflating look like baloons (crossection). Anyway, definitely not aero... ;)
But why you didn't include in the test the Expensive carbon wheels? I am pretty sure there will be not time difference (but the one induced by the weight difference 300gr)
Production is really improving Jeff! Aesthetic is king when it comes to roadbike! Its better to look faster and ride slow than you look a slow rider and ride fast! :)
I recently bought anew bike and when building it, was weighing parts I had v parts that came with it to find the lightest and found that the wheels that came with it were lighter than my vision wheels I already had, in my head it feels faster being lighter
Thanks for an honest, no b.s. review. I've always had stock bikes without carbon wheels. And always saw carbon wheels as just a cool look. It's the placebo effect as to why people buy them imo
The deep section carbon wheels are significantly faster! The speed at a given power is the same because they held a significantly less aero position with the more aero wheelset. Not sure who we're trying to fool or why
I am back-and-forth with this, but I am happy with the aluminum wheels as I’ve hit some pretty good imperfections in the road that the aluminum wheels have been way more forgiving on
Keep this up, Jeff! You guys are doing a phenomenal job. I love the content, format and length of the clips. Always short, honest, informative and professional. 👍
Stock wheels that came on my bike are 2kg. Swapped out to lighter wheels (410g) that cost £171. If I was to get carbon wheels I would want same or lighter weight. Cost doesn't make it worth while. Note I don't race.
Just as with the last video about wheel performance, there are just way too many uncontrolled variables to really conclude anything. Especially, the conclusion to either stick with aluminium wheels or save up for super fancy carbon wheels cannot be based on these tests. Since you did not find an aero advantage with these carbon wheels (which there should be even for cheaper deep section wheels), there is absolutely no way to know if "better" carbon wheels can achieve any gains. If anything, these tests show that the difference in performance is smaller than the random impact of uncontrolled conditions. Given that often numbers like "30 seconds saved over an hour at 45kph" are quoted, this is no surprise.
@@THEDnARACER Theoretical gains? Yes. Noticeable gains on this course? Absolutely not. Reducing your weight by 1kg saves you approx. 40 seconds going up Alp d'Huez at 250W or so. Even if the conditions were absolutely constant here, you'd have a hard time hand timing the difference on his test course.
@@THEDnARACER Accelerating and fighting gravity (i.e.; climbing steep hills) are the only times wheel weight will have any significant difference, especially only a couple hundred grams difference.
I'd say this video is pretty spot on. I saved ~450 grams on my road bike with some cheap elite wheels coming from mavic askiums and almost a Kg on my gravel bike with winspace lun grapids (but I'm not sure they would be considered cheap wheels I'd say they're about roval terra clx level). I ran gp5000s on both the mavic and elite wheels and like you I really did not notice a time difference. The mavics definitely have better hubs/bearings. For the weight change factor, I changed too many variables at once to notice a difference from just the wheels but I don't think I'd really feel the 450 grams. The only place I really noticed a difference was sprinting and hammering out of crit corners. the elites are a lot stiffer but the mavics have a goofy spoke pattern and I'm sure a normal aluminum wheel is about just as stiff. The grapids felt significantly faster but they replace some low spec factory branded wheels and I changed tires to tires with ~10 less watts of rolling resistance per tire. I did have to re-dish and retension the wheelset after about 3 months of riding though which is another charge someone paying a bike shop to work on their bike would have to deal with.
Are these a set of the old American Classic wheels?? If not, what brand? Those were the ONLY deep section, all alloy rim wheels that I've ever heard of before
@@nofascistsonmywatch I got mine off AliExpress. They are Mavic Cosmic rim brake ones . Well it says that on them anyway . Done loads of miles on them . Might just be some OEM wheels with Mavic stickers on but they are decent wheels so I'm not bothered.
Throwing the bike around on my twisty urban commute shows a big difference with light and stiff Elite carbon hoops. Not so much in straight line performance though.
My Williams S30 alloys are fast-fast. 1590 grams. Came on a used caad9 I bought. … they were about 400 bucks years ago. Very strong. Not gonna upgrade to CF wheels. They are great
This series on wheel comparisons as been helpful. Looking at rim brake wheels for my 2010 CX bike/ general outdoor use bike. Only have my alloy tubular race focus slight all around use wheels with mud tread CX tubular tire on now left. After years of use on the old all around use/race back up alloy clinchers worn out: j bend spokes snapping at spoke bend, nipples braking, brake track end of safe use, etc. Split between buying cheap carbon wheels or rebuilding with the bitx hubs saved from the alloy clincher set which will be more cost and spokes for same about of weight. Local roads are dangerous enough with traffic and road conditions with lots of stop-go to just ride outside till arrive to the parks/open spaces/ less used roads. So wet weather or short rides are on zwift for safety and quality time use. Long and mixed surface rides outside. So one carbon braking issue avoided already.
Rather than having to have what are meant to very aero wheels, I think the key is to at least not have 'un-aero' parachutes, such as old Ksyriums (man, the Great Wheel Test KILLED them 🙂) or shallow rims with a million think, round spokes. There are tons of cheaper wheels are aren't 'un-aero', and only a handful of watts more draggy than expensive, deep-rim wheels.
I bought a cheaper carbon wheelset and I agree with this video. They feel sluggish and have a harsher ride feel. I don't feel they're better than my quality alloy wheelset.
I would like to know the tire width compared to the rim width. Too wide of a tire negates most of the aero benefit of having a deep section wheel. Both shallow and deep section wheels are affected negatively by wind when running too wide a tire. Need this test done with the 105 rule in place. I think the results will be similar, but the tire width comes with variables.
If the carbon wheels are 1800gr that’s hardly an upgrade! A more interesting test is to compare a pair of light alu wheels like Scribe Race-D that weigh just 1450 gr for only 500eu to similar weight carbons that will cost you more than double ;)
So yeah, 28 tires on 25mm width rims ain't aero. Rim sizes of the ICAN Alpha 50 mm wheel: 50mm: External: 25mm Inner : 18.35mm, advertised weight is Alpha 50 Disc：Total: 1704g Front: 786g Rear: 918g. price is $580 from US warehouse (free shipping) So put those 28 tires on the ICAN G25 with a rim that is 50mm deep, outer width of 33, inner width of 25, and weight of 1510 grams at a cost of 750 US (shipping included to the US) plus they have 10% off, so $675. Or for the same price could get the ICAN G24 wich is 40mm deep hookless with and 29mm outer width and 24mm inner rim width at 1392 grams. That is a big jump up from the Alpha series wheels for only another 200 bucks. Not affiliated with ICAN at all, but a potential customer. I currently have Farsport gravel wheels that I got for $725 shipped to me (in US) that are 1390 grams, 40mm deep hookless and 30mm wide with DTswiss 350 hubs and sapim spokes. They are great wheels. I have tons of grip with my 28mm tires for crits that I can absolutely rail corners or change lines mid corner without a problem.
Like in previous test you are running 28 mm tires on ICAN wheels which have *25* mm external width. It bulbs tire out. If you were to run 25 mm or even 23 mm tires results would have been much better.
The hunt gravel wheelset (25mm internal) could I run 28mm or 30mm tire on their wheelset? No.6 wheel is a 28mm internal and can run 28mm. So the hunts should be able to right!?
I got a pair of new DT Swiss P1800 Spline 32 Aluminum Clincher wheels from The Pro's Closet for $150 to replace my stock Trek wheels. They are great everyday wheels that I don't have to worry about and are lighter and more aero than the stock wheels. I mean you can't beat that price. I also have a set of Bontrager Aeolus Comp 5 TLR for a little more aero(ness) and then I have a set of Reynolds carbon wheels which are much lighter and aero. None of the wheels I got a full price. Just shop around for great deals and save yourself hundreds.
The same wheels came stock on my Canyon Ultimate rim break version and I can't fault them. I thought about upgrading to Winspace Hypers but I don't think it will make much difference to my performance.
Great vid! Thanks guys. Very helpful since I’m shopping. Would you consider a video of top aluminum wheels vs carbon? Interesting compare may be fulcrum race zero vs Zipp/Enve or maybe the budget minded Winspace Lun Hyper.
I'm perplexed. I don't see how there can't be a difference. The shape of those wheels are drastically different between the two and you would expect the carbon to have a significant edge at speed (say 20+ mph). The only thing I can think of that is somewhat impacting the data is that in that area the crosswinds must be pretty significant. If the crosswinds were significant then that could have greatly hurt the carbon wheels quite a bit, giving the alloy wheels enough of an edge to balance it out between the two. This is just me, but I would like to see the test done again where the crosswinds weren't so significant and keeping constant speed at somewhere around 22mph. I've got to believe the difference would show up then.
I have a pair of Shimano carbons, and Campagnolo alu wheels. Both about the same weight. They both ride as fast, its my legs that is the limit. I only bought them for the looks :D (but the Campa wheels sounds soooo much better :)
i got nice aluminum wheels but i got the cheap carbon wheels just for the look lol i think the aluminum wheels run better but carbon wheels make my bike look really nice
$500 aluminum wheel? Is that "stock"? Shimano RS010 wheel come with my bike (i guess $160 a pair) is slow and heavy. Day and night after get first carbon wheel.
Great comparison. You just saved me a lot of money on cheap carbon wheels. By the way: what are good aluminum wheels? I love those backstage shots, so funny
H Plus Son Archetypes and Sapim CX Rays on your favourite hubs is the place to be. Avoid aluminum nipples unless the wheels are for hillclimbs a couple of times a year
You did the same watts, is it bigger guys are less aero than smaller guys? Also the bikes, which do you think is more aero? Can you do a tcr vs venge, same rider, different bikes, I want to know the difference because I'm considering buying the new Propel but the TCR is cheaper. EDIT: jeff did 6-8 more watts. What a big difference in time for a small power difference.
Bigger guys are less aero in general -bigger frontal area, and one thing which stands out to me is Jeff's head tucked down between the shoulders, whereas James's works as an aero brake in this position. Propel vs TCR: if you are all about speed and ride perfect surfaces only -propel will be faster. TCR is more comfortable, better handling and overall more versatile. Propel as stiff aero bike will transfer all imperfections straight into your body and 3mm wider tires will not be enough to mitigate that to the level of TCR. Stretching, lower more aero position when in need (for speed) and you just saved for a new gear, keeping a more enjoyable ride. That's just my opinion don't get me wrong -propel is great for fast and smooth rides, but you have to be aware what the trade-off is.
Suggestion for next comparison video: Do an indoor riding torture test of bib shorts from $50 garbage tier to $350 hypergucci. Which one let’s you ride the longest in a worst case scenario?
And without any fan/ventilation, as that's duplicating the outdoor summer conditions where even the supposedly 'best' synthetic chamois meet their match, and are totally overwhelmed into the saddle sore/discomfort zone, after an hour or so.
@@nofascistsonmywatch Lol, indoor riding is already unpleasant enough. Though for someone as slim as Jeff and his teammates, bib quality probably doesn't make all that much of a difference.
stock wheels VS what most people actually upgrade to first is a fantastic comparison. thank you jeff
I have a strict 10 - 90 rule. 10% ability, 90% how you look. The Ican's just look cooler. Not particularly scientific, but there you go :)
The tire being wider than the rim is the reason for the result. Once the air separates from the tire (pretty much right away if the rim is smaller), you can't get it to stick to the rim again. Therefore, the aero profile of both of these wheels was functionally the same. If you were to match the tire to the rim as close as possible (but never letting the tire be wider), you'd then get a meaningful test.
As for the "expensive" vs the "cheap" carbon wheels, all that really matters, ceteris paribus, is the wheel profile. If you got a $2000 pair of wheels with the same profile and put the same tire on it, you'd be within the margin of error. (Maybe a little faster due to theoretically better bearings.)
After watching both wheel comparison videos now you got me wondering what’s the real difference between the stock aluminum wheels and the carbon wheels at the price point you’re recommending ($1000-$1500).
And/or $3k
I'm wondering the same too
I went for lightweight aluminium wheels and don't regret it. saved me hundreds and still lighter and same speed
Same, I'm also wondering about helmets, any recommendations? I've been hearing good things about xnito
@@Cesar-cm4if I don't know about that brand. I got a Lazer and I'm very happy with it: light, comfortable and not so hot
Love this channel’s content.
If you upgrade wheels, only do it once. Save and save, and then just get the best you can get
I upgraded to DT Swiss aluminium. only reason as my previous wheel at front was 2 decades old technology with 36 spokes. I would never go for carbon and spend tons as it's purely for professional needs.
The stock alloy wheels on my Giant were over 2kg. Upgrading those to AUD$800 Prime carbons dropped weight to 1500g and made the bike 1-2 gears faster/easier up undulations I’d become used to on my commute and local routes. Much better hubs, no longer feel like riding through treacle as soon as the road rises even slightly. Definitely worthwhile in my case.
thought the same, looks like that aluminum wheel in this video is too good to be "stock wheel". It's looks like good quality wheel for its price though.
Totally agreed. There's no comparison between my alloy wheels and my carbon ones
What carbon wheels did you buy exactly? I have Tcr Advanced 2 Pro Compact, its stock wheelset P-R2 is horrible, rear wheel hub is wobbling and the whole rear wheel with cassette is wobbling about 1.5-2mm, the rolling isn't perfect at all.
The standard wheels on my bike did not only wieght a lot, they also were very opposite of stiff. Did feel like they would brake into half when pedaling compared to the Campagnolo wheels.
I'd take HED Belgiums over any carbon wheel. You just had the wrong Alu wheels.
I bought the $900 Hunt 35mm. Everything was instantly faster/better compared to my stock aluminum wheels. The speed increase was most noticeable in corners. I shaved 1 kg off the bike.
Here's a thing, if you went for alu wheels around the same price point as the icans or similar carbon wheels, the hubs on the aluminium wheels are likely to be better, and the best aluminium wheels are likely to be lighter to. The rims would be easier to replace, and rim brakes would be a good option too. So, my advice would be go for good aluminium wheels and forget about expensive carbon wheels untill you good enough to be paid to race.
smartest comment on this video.
I put to the test HED wheels with carbon fairing against Fulcrum Zero aluminum wheels, each over a 60km run (move time = riding time). I was shocked the the HED wheels were slower by 1.5km/h and required more watts. The HED wheels had also wider tires (25 vs 23) which should have been faster.
Fulcrum zeros have pretty aero spokes and a relatively low spoke count and very good hubs
you are comparing a pair of crappy carbon wheels against the best alloy wheels money can buy, not to mention that the fulcrum racing zeros have ceramic bearings.
@@brucewayne3141 "crappy carbon wheels"...you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
You should do stock aluminum wheels and entry carbon wheel sprints and downhill rides, it should be noticeable in difference
Now compare those aluminum wheels to the $600 Elitewheels Edge weighing 1291 grams. I'm sure you will see a benefit on the climb going from 1800g to 1291g wheelset.
Can't believe this video was launched so quickly after the previous one. Would love to see the difference versus those same aluminum wheels versus carbon ones that are in the $1,500 range
in the peloton or a group ride, the difference is nil.....
This was great. I'd also like to see a video comparing stock wheels on a 105 level bike with after market aluminum wheels like the Boyd Altamont or Hunt alloy sl that are quite a bit lighter than the stock wheels on bikes at that level.
I got my rim brake bike used and bought a pair of new 35mm deep aluminium Campagnolo Scirocco wheels for it. They look fast and sound fast, because of the wind noise at ~35kph and that's all that matters for an amateur hobbyist like me :)
Carbon would probably be faster on the flats but I've had the brakes already overheat on a downhill recently and could feel the decline in braking power. Carbon wheels with a carbon rim braking surface would probably perform worse there.
THIS is why I bemoan, and HATE all of these wheel manufacturers (Campy included!) for totally doing away with carbon deep section, but ALLOY braking surface, NARROW outside width, rim brake wheels (like the Campy Bullet, and original Mavic Cosmic Carbones from way back).
You also would not need to be swapping brake pads every time you changed the wheels either with these above mentioned wheels, like is required with swapping an ALL alloy wheel and a carbon braking surface carbon section wheel.
As it is, I am happy with their results above, having just picked up a pair of Fulcrum (yup, owned by Campy) Racing 4s, 35mm deep ALLOY rim brake wheels with a Campy Record 10 compatible freehub (almost non-existent in the states nowadays!) for less than I paid for my current use Mavic Cosmic Elite alloy wheels, 12 YEARS AGO!!
Besides the 'looks' of a 50 mm deep section carbon rim, I want them for the effing SOUND that they make going down the road, as it is motivation for going faster, especially when paired with Vittoria Corsa 320 TPI tires, and a latex inner tube-pure HEAVEN!!
Since my circa 2000 frame will not even think about accepting the new 'aero standard' 30-35mm WIDTH wheels at the bottom bracket, chain stay clearance area (unlike all of you with your current year, ultra big buck, super wide clearance, disc braked, crunchy carbon frames), and I must seek out much narrower old school wheels (like the Bullets if I want a deep carbon section).
I realize that they will never ever be aero at all, especially when paired with 25C tires (like the absolute reverse of a good, aero, 'NACA' profile!), but the aesthetics and that sound are enough to make me search for them, used. 😉
Bruh.... this should be pinned as the top search when newbies like myself go looking for "budget carbon wheels". All the bigger UK channels more or less say the same to rather save for a decent wheelset, but with them it always feels like there's an agenda, whereas this feels like legit good advice.
Love this mini-series, thanks Jeff (and James)!
James has jokes. Best frame sticker ever!
Saved 400 grams going from Fulcrum Racing 700 ($150) to Zipp 303 Firecrest ($1300) and the rides feel so different!
Best bargain for carbon wheels is getting something built from Light Bicycle. I own two sets laced to Carbon Ti hubs with Sapim CX Ray spokes. Absolutely amazing wheels for the price and since they do their own carbon lay ups they have tons of profile options and customization. I’m about to order a third set for climbing.
I agree. My AR56s are great. I haven't died from braking in the wet with carbon rims brakes either 😂
it's not the best bargain . and only thing you can do is order complete wheels from chinese. you don't hsve fantasy for anything else
@@eXTreematorthat’s false, you can order bare stripped rims, order custom drillings, etc. You don’t need to order complete wheels.
I wouldn’t know how good my new wheels are because I live in SF and my bike was stolen yet again. 7th time in 22 years.😢
I was considering changing from stock DT Swiss PR1600 spline wheels to carbon, won't say which company but the DT swiss have 20 mm inner width and the carbon 19 mm. I know it's just one mm but IMHO makes a difference. There is zero evidence changing to carbon and narrowing the internal rim width (and hence the tire) improves performance. There are other aluminum rims with wider internals as well, of course.
This is very interesting. I had to go back and look at the results and would agree that the difference appears to be more with conditions than the wheels themselves. The faster times came both times on the second lap. $500 = 2 years of training which is > than equipment change.
Yep, I think the course got slightly faster in the day. In any case, the measured differences were within the +/- 1% of the power meters
one of my favorite wheels was the aluminium Campagnolo Shamal wheel. They rolled incredibly well and felt great riding. Unfortunately the bike got stolen using it to commute to work.
Yeah, I have a pair of Campagnolo Zonda C17, and they roll really well, so when I am in a group I usually have to brake while the others pedal to keep the same speed :)
the ican wheels are only 25 mm external width. a 28mm tire is too wide and likely neutralizes most of the aero benefits. would be interested in the results with a narrower 23mm tire
Icans are wider and more compatible with the 28s we tested on compared to the aluminum, so advantage icans
You are so wrong there
Love your content, especially on Crit strategies. I watched your first video on the wheels and started watching this one when a thought (yes, those do occur in my brain from time to time 😂) popped up in my head. An important factor when considering which wheelset to buy isn’t just the material and depth of rim but also the hubs each wheel has.
How about for your next video find a set of rims that are the same but with two different quality hubs. Another possibility is to lace the ICAN’s to a better quality hun and do a comparison to the Rovals again.
The alloy wheels could very well have much better hubs than the ICAN’s thus making them comparable.
Looking forward to more racing content next season!
You have to admit that the deep section carbon wheels sure look cool though.
One thing to consider is you really need a frame with a rear triangle wide enough to accommodate the newer aero carbon wheels which need a minimum 30-35mm near the bottom bracket. The cheaper carbon wheels in the 23-25 mm width may not give enough of an airfoil until you reach about 25 mph
I used to have that Venge Pro color. Real awesome in person.
with these tests, it's mainly about aerodynamics, but I think other aspects - stiffness in cornering, especially on descents, standing up climbing or sprinting - would be interesting to consider. I have a pair of ultegra aluminum wheels that work great (asymmetric rims and pretty wide modern width, decent weight, pretty good braking for rim brakes, Shimano's super reliable quick releases), but the one area they feel a little lacking is aggressive cornering
I only tested aerodynamics this time because their weight was pretty much identical
@@NorCalCycling I think aero wheels are more effective on the wind tunnel or track race conditions where there is no crosswind at all, but in real life conditions, deep section aero wheels with crosswinds, they lose their aero advantages. That's what I call a "marginal loss" on the aero wheels.
The ICAN AERO's are way better than the alpha's for 200 dollar more. Light and fast, but maybe not as stiff as I would like. Upgraded to the new Winspace wheels, and this ones are way stiffer than the ICAN ones. Also for 500 dollars you can find better aluminium wheels, right?
The Send Nudes sticker had me dying ☠️☠️☠️
Oh that old NSX @3:57 love it!
First thing I did years ago, was to replace stock aluminium wheels with better aluminium wheels. I have them till now. Ultegra WH-6700. Fun part today is the world shifted to wider tires with less air inside, so it's harder to get the 21-23mm ones. All starts out of 25, and these after inflating look like baloons (crossection). Anyway, definitely not aero... ;)
But why you didn't include in the test the Expensive carbon wheels? I am pretty sure there will be not time difference (but the one induced by the weight difference 300gr)
My AL Campag Zondas rock my old stock AL ones. There is also a difference between AL wheels...
Production is really improving Jeff! Aesthetic is king when it comes to roadbike! Its better to look faster and ride slow than you look a slow rider and ride fast! :)
I recently bought anew bike and when building it, was weighing parts I had v parts that came with it to find the lightest and found that the wheels that came with it were lighter than my vision wheels I already had, in my head it feels faster being lighter
Thanks for an honest, no b.s. review. I've always had stock bikes without carbon wheels. And always saw carbon wheels as just a cool look. It's the placebo effect as to why people buy them imo
The deep section carbon wheels are significantly faster! The speed at a given power is the same because they held a significantly less aero position with the more aero wheelset. Not sure who we're trying to fool or why
Awesome video!
Can you put both of these wheels to a test in your Alviso crit ?
Interested in some middle ground direct from supplier tests. Like something from lightbicycle vs rovals.
I am back-and-forth with this, but I am happy with the aluminum wheels as I’ve hit some pretty good imperfections in the road that the aluminum wheels have been way more forgiving on
Keep this up, Jeff! You guys are doing a phenomenal job. I love the content, format and length of the clips. Always short, honest, informative and professional. 👍
Stock wheels that came on my bike are 2kg. Swapped out to lighter wheels (410g) that cost £171. If I was to get carbon wheels I would want same or lighter weight. Cost doesn't make it worth while. Note I don't race.
Carbon wheels aren’t so fast after they explode after you hit a pothole
not gonna lie. The outtakes were the best part of this episode.
Just as with the last video about wheel performance, there are just way too many uncontrolled variables to really conclude anything. Especially, the conclusion to either stick with aluminium wheels or save up for super fancy carbon wheels cannot be based on these tests. Since you did not find an aero advantage with these carbon wheels (which there should be even for cheaper deep section wheels), there is absolutely no way to know if "better" carbon wheels can achieve any gains. If anything, these tests show that the difference in performance is smaller than the random impact of uncontrolled conditions. Given that often numbers like "30 seconds saved over an hour at 45kph" are quoted, this is no surprise.
He said “cheap carbon wheels weigh the same as the aluminum” so if the better carbon cuts a few 100 grams, is that not going to bring gains?
@@THEDnARACER Theoretical gains? Yes. Noticeable gains on this course? Absolutely not. Reducing your weight by 1kg saves you approx. 40 seconds going up Alp d'Huez at 250W or so. Even if the conditions were absolutely constant here, you'd have a hard time hand timing the difference on his test course.
@@THEDnARACER Accelerating and fighting gravity (i.e.; climbing steep hills) are the only times wheel weight will have any significant difference, especially only a couple hundred grams difference.
I'd say this video is pretty spot on.
I saved ~450 grams on my road bike with some cheap elite wheels coming from mavic askiums and almost a Kg on my gravel bike with winspace lun grapids (but I'm not sure they would be considered cheap wheels I'd say they're about roval terra clx level).
I ran gp5000s on both the mavic and elite wheels and like you I really did not notice a time difference. The mavics definitely have better hubs/bearings. For the weight change factor, I changed too many variables at once to notice a difference from just the wheels but I don't think I'd really feel the 450 grams.
The only place I really noticed a difference was sprinting and hammering out of crit corners. the elites are a lot stiffer but the mavics have a goofy spoke pattern and I'm sure a normal aluminum wheel is about just as stiff.
The grapids felt significantly faster but they replace some low spec factory branded wheels and I changed tires to tires with ~10 less watts of rolling resistance per tire. I did have to re-dish and retension the wheelset after about 3 months of riding though which is another charge someone paying a bike shop to work on their bike would have to deal with.
That sure looks like McKean/Almaden. Sounds like nice tires gets you ahead more that bottom carbon.
Aluminium for Rim wheels, Carbon for disc wheels.
...or, aluminum braking surface, but deep carbon faired rims for rim brake bikes 😉👍
They do look good though . My 50mm deep rim wheels are alloy and heavier than stock wheels but I think they transform the look of your bike.
Are these a set of the old American Classic wheels??
If not, what brand?
Those were the ONLY deep section, all alloy rim wheels that I've ever heard of before
@@nofascistsonmywatch I got mine off AliExpress. They are Mavic Cosmic rim brake ones . Well it says that on them anyway . Done loads of miles on them . Might just be some OEM wheels with Mavic stickers on but they are decent wheels so I'm not bothered.
Did I read your graphics correctly?
The carbon wheels were objectively faster than the aluminum wheels?
Throwing the bike around on my twisty urban commute shows a big difference with light and stiff Elite carbon hoops. Not so much in straight line performance though.
My Williams S30 alloys are fast-fast. 1590 grams. Came on a used caad9 I bought. … they were about 400 bucks years ago. Very strong. Not gonna upgrade to CF wheels. They are great
This series on wheel comparisons as been helpful. Looking at rim brake wheels for my 2010 CX bike/ general outdoor use bike. Only have my alloy tubular race focus slight all around use wheels with mud tread CX tubular tire on now left. After years of use on the old all around use/race back up alloy clinchers worn out: j bend spokes snapping at spoke bend, nipples braking, brake track end of safe use, etc. Split between buying cheap carbon wheels or rebuilding with the bitx hubs saved from the alloy clincher set which will be more cost and spokes for same about of weight. Local roads are dangerous enough with traffic and road conditions with lots of stop-go to just ride outside till arrive to the parks/open spaces/ less used roads. So wet weather or short rides are on zwift for safety and quality time use. Long and mixed surface rides outside. So one carbon braking issue avoided already.
Rather than having to have what are meant to very aero wheels, I think the key is to at least not have 'un-aero' parachutes, such as old Ksyriums (man, the Great Wheel Test KILLED them 🙂) or shallow rims with a million think, round spokes. There are tons of cheaper wheels are aren't 'un-aero', and only a handful of watts more draggy than expensive, deep-rim wheels.
I bought a cheaper carbon wheelset and I agree with this video. They feel sluggish and have a harsher ride feel. I don't feel they're better than my quality alloy wheelset.
I would like to know the tire width compared to the rim width. Too wide of a tire negates most of the aero benefit of having a deep section wheel. Both shallow and deep section wheels are affected negatively by wind when running too wide a tire. Need this test done with the 105 rule in place. I think the results will be similar, but the tire width comes with variables.
I love that you put in the bloopers at the end! Didn't even notice you swapped the wheels in the intro
i think stock wheel vs medium price AL wheel( Fulcrum Racing 3-4, or DT Swiss 1800-1600) test should be great!
Nice experiment and sharing.
Sticking to my hand built aluminium wheels
How about a test of something like conti gatorskins/spec armadillos vs gp5000s?
If the carbon wheels are 1800gr that’s hardly an upgrade! A more interesting test is to compare a pair of light alu wheels like Scribe Race-D that weigh just 1450 gr for only 500eu to similar weight carbons that will cost you more than double ;)
I've always wondered what the difference is, a test for ceramic bearings vs steel bearings would be good

Watch @hambini for scientific evidence, wheels, bearings
It's not what you ride but how you ride it. 👍
So yeah, 28 tires on 25mm width rims ain't aero. Rim sizes of the ICAN Alpha 50 mm wheel: 50mm: External: 25mm Inner : 18.35mm, advertised weight is Alpha 50 Disc：Total: 1704g Front: 786g Rear: 918g. price is $580 from US warehouse (free shipping)
So put those 28 tires on the ICAN G25 with a rim that is 50mm deep, outer width of 33, inner width of 25, and weight of 1510 grams at a cost of 750 US (shipping included to the US) plus they have 10% off, so $675. Or for the same price could get the ICAN G24 wich is 40mm deep hookless with and 29mm outer width and 24mm inner rim width at 1392 grams. That is a big jump up from the Alpha series wheels for only another 200 bucks. Not affiliated with ICAN at all, but a potential customer.
I currently have Farsport gravel wheels that I got for $725 shipped to me (in US) that are 1390 grams, 40mm deep hookless and 30mm wide with DTswiss 350 hubs and sapim spokes. They are great wheels. I have tons of grip with my 28mm tires for crits that I can absolutely rail corners or change lines mid corner without a problem.
Video starts at 4:50
I ride a ten year old Giant road bike. Rim brakes. Top tier!
How about stock aluminium vs something like hyper 50’s
Like in previous test you are running 28 mm tires on ICAN wheels which have *25* mm external width. It bulbs tire out. If you were to run 25 mm or even 23 mm tires results would have been much better.
this was mentioned in the video, and they bulge out even more on the alum wheels so if anything advantage should be with the ICAN.
The hunt gravel wheelset (25mm internal) could I run 28mm or 30mm tire on their wheelset? No.6 wheel is a 28mm internal and can run 28mm. So the hunts should be able to right!?
Giant PR-2 aluminium rims are 500g heavier than CSC carbon rims, which are just way faster. And look way better of course.
I got a pair of new DT Swiss P1800 Spline 32 Aluminum Clincher wheels from The Pro's Closet for $150 to replace my stock Trek wheels. They are great everyday wheels that I don't have to worry about and are lighter and more aero than the stock wheels. I mean you can't beat that price. I also have a set of Bontrager Aeolus Comp 5 TLR for a little more aero(ness) and then I have a set of Reynolds carbon wheels which are much lighter and aero. None of the wheels I got a full price. Just shop around for great deals and save yourself hundreds.
The same wheels came stock on my Canyon Ultimate rim break version and I can't fault them. I thought about upgrading to Winspace Hypers but I don't think it will make much difference to my performance.
Thank you for this video, I was considering these type of wheels, so I guess I am saving up for some pricier wheels instead
Great vid! Thanks guys. Very helpful since I’m shopping. Would you consider a video of top aluminum wheels vs carbon? Interesting compare may be fulcrum race zero vs Zipp/Enve or maybe the budget minded Winspace Lun Hyper.
my aluminum wheelsets 30mm profile 14mm width which I built myself only weight 1500g
I'm perplexed. I don't see how there can't be a difference. The shape of those wheels are drastically different between the two and you would expect the carbon to have a significant edge at speed (say 20+ mph). The only thing I can think of that is somewhat impacting the data is that in that area the crosswinds must be pretty significant. If the crosswinds were significant then that could have greatly hurt the carbon wheels quite a bit, giving the alloy wheels enough of an edge to balance it out between the two. This is just me, but I would like to see the test done again where the crosswinds weren't so significant and keeping constant speed at somewhere around 22mph. I've got to believe the difference would show up then.
I have a pair of Shimano carbons, and Campagnolo alu wheels. Both about the same weight. They both ride as fast, its my legs that is the limit. I only bought them for the looks :D (but the Campa wheels sounds soooo much better :)
It's all about the look. Chad Powers said it best. "Think fast, run fast"
aluminium wheels and rim brakes, how about that?
i got nice aluminum wheels but i got the cheap carbon wheels just for the look lol i think the aluminum wheels run better but carbon wheels make my bike look really nice
$500 aluminum wheel? Is that "stock"? Shimano RS010 wheel come with my bike (i guess $160 a pair) is slow and heavy. Day and night after get first carbon wheel.
What about those monoprice carbon wheels that’s been faithfully serving in the past?
Thanks for the Straight Forward and Honest Information Brother 😎✌️. Peace ✌️ and Love 💕 from Tucson Arizona Desert 🏜️. Just Ride and Be Happy 😁
I mean look at the bike with the deep wheels...does anything else matter more?
How about the performance disadvantage of a jersey one size too large
All-around wheels are the best wheels. I love my enve 3.4 wheels for everything
speed perceived is speed achieved
I may have missed it in the video, but is this head-to-head comparison with tube or tubeless tires? And love the gag reel at the end! 😅
Nice pair of slides you have there Jeff, at the start and end of the video Jeff
Nice to see a Venge Pro
Great comparison. You just saved me a lot of money on cheap carbon wheels. By the way: what are good aluminum wheels? I love those backstage shots, so funny
H Plus Son Archetypes and Sapim CX Rays on your favourite hubs is the place to be. Avoid aluminum nipples unless the wheels are for hillclimbs a couple of times a year
Where do I send them too? I saw the sticker but no link :(
You did the same watts, is it bigger guys are less aero than smaller guys? Also the bikes, which do you think is more aero? Can you do a tcr vs venge, same rider, different bikes, I want to know the difference because I'm considering buying the new Propel but the TCR is cheaper.
EDIT: jeff did 6-8 more watts. What a big difference in time for a small power difference.
they didn't do the same watts, you should look at the watts per kilo of their weight and not the absolute amount
@@MrTheSUPERFLY yeah i forgot there is actually a climb on this course. Not steep but it matters.
also how they got their average watts. Consistent 270 or interval 240-300.
Bigger guys are less aero in general -bigger frontal area, and one thing which stands out to me is Jeff's head tucked down between the shoulders, whereas James's works as an aero brake in this position. Propel vs TCR: if you are all about speed and ride perfect surfaces only -propel will be faster. TCR is more comfortable, better handling and overall more versatile. Propel as stiff aero bike will transfer all imperfections straight into your body and 3mm wider tires will not be enough to mitigate that to the level of TCR. Stretching, lower more aero position when in need (for speed) and you just saved for a new gear, keeping a more enjoyable ride. That's just my opinion don't get me wrong -propel is great for fast and smooth rides, but you have to be aware what the trade-off is.
The most important thing is the sound when you stand up.
05:17 specialized vs giant and giant win? Or James is heavier?
Yup. Zondas it is for me then.
I feel like unless your a pro at cycling you need high end wheels otherwise 500 $ will be just fine
What about just a deep section rear wheel?
Suggestion for next comparison video: Do an indoor riding torture test of bib shorts from $50 garbage tier to $350 hypergucci. Which one let’s you ride the longest in a worst case scenario?
And without any fan/ventilation, as that's duplicating the outdoor summer conditions where even the supposedly 'best' synthetic chamois meet their match, and are totally overwhelmed into the saddle sore/discomfort zone, after an hour or so.
@@nofascistsonmywatch Lol, indoor riding is already unpleasant enough. Though for someone as slim as Jeff and his teammates, bib quality probably doesn't make all that much of a difference.