Won't somebody think of the men? | Why the Manosphere is designed to fail.
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2024
- Going forward, I'll be talking about what positive masculinity looks like with more concrete archetypes. I encourage others to do the same.
This discussion used binary terms, because while this problem affects everyone, it is a product of the gender binary.
"The Rise of Lonely, Single Men": www.psychology...
Go give Aranock some love: / aranock
Looking for more tips and encouragement re: positive masculinity? Check out our podcast, Dudes Rock!: / @dudesrock6314
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This video is monetized for visibility. Certain advertisers are blocked given the nature of the content and the way the algorithm works; if advertisements that are at conflict with the message of this video pop up, please let me know. I don't want to promote that stuff.
The only ad I got was for muscle powder or something, it wasn't Prager U or anything lol.
Great video yet again, Finn!
I guess tbat explains why I got an ad for the Pillowcube instead of the Mypillow
I think you hit on something with this comment about ads, and that is, I believe, another part of the problem is that the pain, hurt, and yes fear that a lot of men go through in this changing world has attracted grifters who want to exacerbate then exploit those feelings to make money rather than actually help them develop skills they need to better themselves and socially adjust.
You are a Mr. Rogers for adults :)
The hardest thing about being a trans guy is navigating this stuff. Other (cis) men don't have the tools/skills to create the emotional platonic connections I need, and women no longer see me as somebody safe to be emotionally intimate with. It's an absolute culture shock to go from a world where platonic affection is normal to one where it is nowhere.
Holy shit this.
For a trans woman, it can be hard to achieve the platonic affection as well. Not as difficult as when I was a guy, but still feel on the outside by and large.
I hope you find people who treat you right, my friends.
I feel lucky because by the time I transitioned I already had a healthy group of cis guys who I had been friends with for years and they are all affectionate with each other and very close. And when I started to transition they pivoted and pulled me in past the gender barrier in to their guy group pretty quickly. It was something I did not know that I had really been longing for my whole life, because I actually had not had much physical affection from women either. Guys need that! I was starved for it and I really didn’t even know that I was. I wonder a lot now how many cis guys also feel that way but don’t even know it because sometimes you cannot recognize that a thing is missing from your life until you finally get it. Bear hug your bros.
@@Aud_the_Odd Damn straight
One thing I love about masculinity, in my experience, is when you find a positive group of "your boys," they will stick by you through anything, but never hesitate to call out bad behavior or hold each other accountable.
I've run the gamut of toxic masculine relationships and once I stopped embracing it (both consciously as, "the way it is" and unconsciously as learned behavior) I found myself WAY more comfortable with my own masculinity.
It's such a relief, isn't it? Personally I've been embracing wholesome gym bro culture (see Reilly and Jonesy) and it just makes me so happy. A whole lot of encouragement and support in a very traditionally masculine space and pursuit.
@@FinntasticMrFox Positive gym bros are the best! No joke.
Brotherliness is the coolest feeling to have sometimes
Muh-sculinity bro
I fucking love seeing boys messing around in a wholesome way. I go bouldering, and at the gym you get to watch all these young men cheer each other on and mess around on the walls and it's so fun. Men deserve support like that in all areas of their lives.
Honestly, any woman that doesn't think men deserve a better version of masculinity - deserve emotional support in their upbringing - apparently doesn't recognize the huge issues that could be helped in that endeavor: lowered intimate partner violence, lowered rape statistics, more communication and shared emotional labor. It feels pretty self-evident. But I'm a cis woman without kids, so this video wasn't for me. I hope it finds men it can help, and women who have boy-childs.
@@ajasen asking oppressed people to value the happiness of their oppressor won't get you anywhere. They're more concerned with not dying which is why op wrote out arguments that would benefit women in the long run.
@@ChocolatexCherries3 it is okay to not consider men if you plan on never having children but if you intend to go in a relationship with another gender and have children you need to think of this because you will be raising the next generation of men
@@six-footant1577 I'm not asking anyone who's been abused - myself included - to be the standard bearer for a better, less toxic masculinity for the 'poor, deluded, mens' out there. Duck out if you want; God knows I did. But I applaud anyone ELSE with the chops to try, including Finn.
@@SabzKhumalo I don't know what your point was?
@@six-footant1577 I do think that. I don't wish my psychopathic ex bf on anyone, and I truly believe actual empathy is realizing that the only way out of the abusive cycle is for some of the victims to put their feet down and say "It stops with me. Maybe I can't fix it, but I'm not going to let my pain stand in the way of other's healing." When you indulge schadenfreude, the world gets a little darker, a little bleaker. However, all of that isn't to say women need to actively hug their abusers and sing a hymn; I'm talking getting out of the way and concentrating on your OWN healing while people who have the willingness (and energy) to continue the work have at it. I've never been in a relationship where the guy didn't cheat. The last one cheated, stole from me, and kept a gun in our apartment. I'm not in a position to help him - or any guy who's stuck in that entitled headspace - ever again. But I don't begrudge OTHERS trying. Because, honest, my ex has probably gone on to cheat on and steal from other women by now. 😞
"If you could wake up tomorrow and have people understand anything about you, what would it be?" Man raised by a wolfpack of women here. This is a critical question. It took me decades to understand that the overt and covert themes of my upbringing were: "Value the women around you and don't be a douchebag, little man." Mission accepted and (mostly?) accomplished (F**k, I hope?). But it took me a while longer to really value the question that you just asked. It's one thing to learn what *not* to be, but it's another to understand how you want to be and what you need to do to get there. Thanks for this video, Finn.
Oh, and "Beta Soy Boy." I'm writing that down.
This comment really hits home ... not a single family, but military family (mainly overseas) so my father wasnt around for a lot of it (24 on, 24 off shifts + being deployed to the Middle East up to 6 months at a time).
I didnt notice that the values of "women deserve to be treated better than guys" or "always help women first" were inherently biased/unhealthy until I started therapy in my 30s ... it's been a wild few years looking back on a lot of probably cringe behavior bc the "Wolfpack of women" as you describe the extended family dynamics in your childhood really does create young men who have the routines and mantras forcibly imprinted on their minds but lacking any support or belief behind it. It was just "girls are better than boys, they're more likely to suffer more from bad men, so you have to not be a burden on women and treat all women as your betters and be a good guy".
Not even get into the grieving having 1 half-present male role model and no close male friends growing up for most of my life, but I def wonder what my 20s would have looked like if I'd had more balanced male relationships in my pre-adult life.
@@DouglasHollingsworth1 That's a really good point. It does create some weird situations. I've found that traditional martial arts that have an emphasis on meditation gave me a good framework to build on. Going from how do I survive and achieve some level of success to being present, focused, and finding balance in the situation turned out to be a hard transition but fulfilling one. The goal of finding balance and being fair brought up some glaring issues with some of the dogma I've heard throughout my life, inside and outside the home. Overall, the mixture of early ideals and learned ones, along with the experience of trying to live life in this way, allowed me to foster relationships well and handle many a tough situation.
As someone who used to be a “MRA” 🙄 That rage and Sadness and anger is disturbingly accurate for me when I was a senior in high school. Whenever I watch Women debunk Manosphere content I think to myself that my decision to DeRadicalize from my misogyny and instead start to heal and learn to trust women and heal my platonic relationships with the women in my family was the correct decision. Thank you for this video it’s time that the Manospheres and misogynistic men’s chokehold on men’s issues and trauma come to a end! :)
And thank you for being here. Doing that work when you're in a pattern of thinking because of pain and anger is not easy, and it means a lot that you're taking that experience and sharing your insight with others.
Good work!
Finn my friend. This feels like an important video you've made. I'm going to have to watch it multiple times to unpack everything. You have made something powerful. It's a shame that putting something complex, deep, and honest onto the Social Media Thunderdome that is UA-cam requires so much courage. But you're showing that courage. Thank you.
Thank you, Dezzy. 💙 You are always so incredibly kind and encouraging, and it means the world that you're here sharing your story and offering your support.
Bell Hooks’ book The Will to Change covers a lot of this, especially the dangers of viewing all men as all-powerful. It’s a truly powerful read, even if you already identify with lots of feminist ideology. She also forgoes the word “Toxic Masculinity” for “Patriarchal Masculinity” and I think it does a lot better as showing men and boys as victims of patriarchal thinking rather than the constant perpetrators of it.
I just started The Will to Change and I'm so excited to finally read it.
that is a great way to change terminology to something that fits better and gets the point across without having to not discuss the issues. this makes is sound like the type of issue it is, a systemic one that need to be change by changing problem with the culture without making it a mans only problem as man are also victims of patriarchal masculinity.
stop worrying about Muh-sculinity
THANK YOU for this comment !
A lot of the time, the harm done to women by toxically masculine men is those men shifting the pain off of themselves. While stopping this pain being shifted to women is a good step, ultimately we have to address the men's pain to eliminate the pain overall
Yes, it needs to be addressed in a way that doesn't take it out on others.
I agree. Men push their feelings, both positive and negative, onto the women in their lives because they have been taught that women are the receptacle for their problems. Their girlfriends, wives, sisters, and mothers become their emotional crutch, to spill their emotions into, but that openness to emotion is not reciprocated and it leaves women doing all the emotional work or becoming the vessel that men inflict their own pain upon, dehumanizing them in the process. Men need to work on this between men, women can't be the ones to solve this issue because that once again lays the emotional burden on the woman where it does not belong.
Hi! Great video. I think something we need to start doing is to "de-gender" behavior and emotion. For some men, asking them to "get in touch with their feminine-side" is a cultural call for emasculation. If we instead said, it is healthy for people to "express their feelings so that they can get their needs met," that sounds sensible and non-threatening, and something men can buy into. Saying that respect for others experience and emotions helps gain understanding and enhances out abilities to negotiate our way through society also sounds gender neutral, non-threatening, and beneficial. Emotions and needs are human based and should be expressed in those terms, not disguised by cultural gender bias. I was sent here by Jesse Gender. You have a new subscriber.
I agree. I had a male cousin who played with dolls. He became a great father. We really need to stop gendering behavior and emotions.
Another problem with telling men to "get in touch with their feminine side" I'd you assume they can. Its treated as a given that if men did present more feminine that their family and friends would still respect them, that their significant other will stay as attracted to them, that their workplace will still think of them as competent, that society in general wont treat them differently.
The ideas of coding certain behaviours as "masculine" or "feminine" at all sort of break down when I think of my #1 male role model, and the man I've named myself after as I transition. My gramps grew up on a farm during the Great Depression, and everyone there was expected to do whatever chore needed doing as a matter of survival, so as a child he learned to sew, knit, and even crochet lace by hand! (They were poor, but they had standards.) He also grew up tall and smart, apprenticed to a mechanic, and then joined our local Fire Department. He kept taking courses in mechanics and engineering, and eventually became Chief Mechanic in the department, then Deputy Chief, and continued training recruits in special workshops for years after he'd retired. And when he retired, he put his old tailoring skills to good use and opened a clothing store. I don't think he ever raised his voice in anger to a child in his life, (unless it was my uncle, who frankly would have deserved it), and even in his 80's, he was supportive when I finally came out.
Gramps, I know I told you in person, but I still want you to know, if you're out there somewhere, you're the kind of man I want to be. Using my strengths and skills to help and uplift others, and to make beautiful things, rather than to harm or destroy.
>and something men can buy into.
There are lots of ideas but no political will to carry it out. No task force gets created automatically to tackle men's issues like they do for women's issues. All the UN metrics cap at "equal" they will not acknowledge a situation where men were left behind. All attempts get shut down in fear that it's diverting resources from women's issues. Like having fewer angry men wouldn't be a huge boon to women.
I have heard dozens of people propose some idea like manerapy or some sort of branding, men apparently respond to coaching pretty well, but literally the only action I have ever seen is people writing articles telling men to fix it themselves.
Hiya, victim of a lot of male Domestic Violence here (I nearly got killed more than once). I'm glad these vids are getting made. It's important, cause being made a victim of someone else's unhappiness is hard. Life is already hard, and when you can't actually help them, but life and movies have taught people that you will help, it's really hurtful to everyone. I have empathy, but from a safe distance cause PTSD from DV is a hard thing to bear.
As far as terms to substitute, I'm very much a "people are taught to respond to terms negatively, so explain the concept without using the words" type of far Leftist.
When I talk about men and male characters I like, I try and explain them in a way that kind of slides in funny.
I know I would describe a lot of my male friends as gentle. That makes people used to boorish men scoff, but as someone who's suffered a lot of DV based out of male unhappiness, I see my guy friends's ability to see others' struggles and adapt to help lift up the burden, if only temporarily as a great example.
So, that weird thing you normally wouldn't associate, then go in to explain.
Also, have examples. If you don't have friend of family examples, some celebs you admire work. Mr Rodgers is great. I like Adam Liaw (Australian TV chef, won Masterchef Australia series two); he's got serious dad vibes, and he just seems so friendly on air (I don't think you can fake that kind of friendliness or caring dad vibes). Everyone has faves.
As for skirting around the words people have been trained to react to, just talking about the behaviours in the context of not approving can work wonders. But that needs to come from a fellow guy. The behaviour approval seeking is better coming from you guys. You don't need to say "that's toxic masculinity". If you see a behaviour that hurts in the moment, call it out then. If it's a story meant for an effect (to be funny or brag), do an opposite emotion (if it was meant to be funny, ask them why, get them to explain, then be like "Ah, I didn't laugh because I think that's pretty awful", if it was meant to brag, same thing on getting them explain how it makes them cool, but reply "I don't think that was an example of your best self").
I like the burning building analogy. Thank you for giving a burned victim of that fire that we're all trying to deal with some new language :D
Kudos to you dudes out there doing the hard work. It's really hard, but people like me need you to keep it up. I believe in you. Keep on believing in others!
You may not always get the figurative headpats this work requires, but building up supportive networks is hard. Especially when you have factors (which is the term I use when taking about having things that amount to having less privileges in life).
I was very isolated myself in my childhood for being disabled and neurodivergent. They are extremely hard on girls who don't automatically "get" the social rules, and cannot fake neurotypicality 😅 So I get things in my own way. And there's lots of us out there.
It's just my factors of life. And I find that idea sits better with a lot of people who have been trained to react to "classism", "ableism", "racism" etc. It also doesn't have that sort of vague dismissive sense privilege does. But it means the same. It's the factors of life that make things harder.
Sorry for the rambling; ADHD does that 😅 Putting ideas into words with ADHD is like standing in one of those gift giveaway/cash grab wind machines. It's a veritable hurricane of things, and you gotta snatch ideas out of the air and read them out.
@@TheShadowChesireCat I like your rambling, no need to apologize. It takes a lot just to talk about what you went through, and even more to come away from it still kind and willing to open up to people and push toward something better. It means a lot that you talked about your experiences and shared your insight, thank you so much for that. 💙
It's doesn't matter tho
In©el ReẞelliØn already began lol
As a woman, I want to personally thank you for making this video as it's made me cry. Thank you for giving me the closure I never received. I spent over a year in a mentally abusive relationship with a self-proclaimed "Red-Pilled Alpha" who consumed manosphere content like the morning paper and whose Lord & Savior is Kevin Samuels.
In an effort to emphasize with the male struggle and to understand my partner better, I emersed myself into the Manosphere and found myself on the MGTOW/Black Pill side of UA-cam/Reddit. I can't count the thousands of hours of content I consumed and how many Alpha Male content creators I know by heart.
I quickly fell into the trap and believed the lies they've told about men AND women. I was a certified member of the cult and even considered myself a red-pilled woman.
After leaving the relationship, one thing my ex told me verbatim that ALL men cheat because it's their biological right to exercise their options. This, along with numerous other talking points he shoved down my throat, made me distrusting of men.
In many women, those feelings of distrust can manifest into anger or even hatred of men, but for me, it manifested sadness a grim look on society.
Thank for taking an active stance against this ideology and thank you for making me aware of the male experience.
Thank you so much for commenting, I know it's not easy to tap into painful memories like that. I can't even imagine what that experience must have been like--for everyone being pulled into that ideology, it looks like a very scary place to be personally, and a very disheartening way to think about other people.
I'm glad you got out, and I hope you're being kind to yourself in your steps to recover from that hurt you experienced. It means a lot that you were able to talk about it here. I really hope your ex breaks out of it, too.
just an advice. don't change yourself for anyone. either you're compatible or you're not.
Love this!
Something I have been struggling with as a trans man is navigating the world of masculinity and trauma. Growing up a "girl/woman" I experienced my fair share of bad men, and I was raised to believe most men are untrustworthy, and I witnessed men do things and so many women have opened up to me about what men have done to them. This build an intense fear and uneasiness around men, but also... myself. I walk around with a debilitating fear to make a woman feel unsafe, uncomfortable or like she needs to worry about me. I live in a state of constant worry of how I may effect a woman because I lived so much of my life afraid of how men effect me. This makes me terrified of my own masculinity, and even my own personality. I have always been a loud, gregarious, flirty and outgoing person. A performer if you will, and as a butch lesbian that passed with flying colours cause I was seen as confident, strong and fun... as a man it can so easily be perceived as obnoxious and unpredictable and that is the worst feeling. How to understand my own masculinity and not be afraid of it because of my experience of "toxic" masculinity is a very difficult journey.
Good to see you here, friend, and thank you for talking about this. It's wild how many trans men describe this very experience, of being men, but so hurt by manhood in their lives that they feel detached from it or afraid of their own identities. Of having enough of an understanding of manhood from the outside looking in that once we're "in it", we're hypervigilant.
I was talking to a transmasc friend who was expressing worry about potentially realizing in their transition that they are, in fact, a man and not non-binary. It really indicates the extent of the problem, and y'gotta wonder about cis boys who don't get that opportunity to question their gender and what it means in the first place.
Trans men sharing their stories is vital, for our own health, and for other people.
Just a cis-het woman dropping in to say - there ARE women out here who are willing, even eager, to be friends with you. Yes, you. Uh huh, even you. There are girls out here who genuinely love the company of men, would sincerely love to listen to you talk about sports or videos games or any of your nerdy interests all day, and really really DO like to be part of someone's emotional support network. Come explore the world of egalitarian communities with us! There's all SORTS of stuff to discover!
As a woman( I know I 'm going to sound transphobic) I am really upset that another group of people are telling me that in order to show respect, that I'm going to have to call MYSELF and my gender by a name that THEY''VE chosen for me, (CIS WOMAN). Not meaning to insult anyone, but what gender has traditionally done this to women?? This feels oddly common and inappropriate.
@@khem127 Applying a term to yourself that you haven't made up personally isn't insulting, it's what everyone has to do in the end. You've accepted the term 'woman'. You've accepted the term 'she'. You didn't get to make up those words either. Sure, you can call yourself whatever you want, but is anyone else going to know what you mean when you say something like that? Using the words cis isn't "to be respectful" - it's merely using the word that society has made up to mean a thing that is true about you. Is the word teen insulting? How about senior? Tall? Short? Brown-eyed? Hazel-eyed? Human? Self-applied descriptive words are only insults when someone ELSE forces them to be so, not when it's a word you've accepted to describe something about yourself. You also don't have to use the word if you don't feel it is true about you, so no one is forcing you to be cis. If you feel it IS true and you still don't like the term, well, I'm afraid that's life. I personally don't like the word Feminism, and much prefer the term Focused Egalitarianism - but I don't get to choose what society calls something. I don't like the phrase "Black Live Matter" either - I prefer "Brown Lives Matter Too". Both of those previous terms - feminism and BLM - I feel are too reliant on an audience's grasp of meaning and subtlety to be properly effective in the internet age. The internet is where subtlety goes to die. I believe my preferred terms are more fully descriptive, but, again, I don't get to choose whether or not society at large uses those terms or not. But this is to show that it can be worthwhile to ask yourself WHY you don't like a word or phrase, and to come up with something better if you can. I'd suggest you try that with cis. Even if what you come up with can't be used in general conversation, the process may help you.
@@EmmaOnATangent Although I appreciate your discussion, we are not talking about society here, we're talking about a minority group that is deciding that we must use an addition to the term "woman " to describe ourselves. Woman is the name that I have been using to describe myself since adulthood and I'm perfectly happy with it. If someone else has an issue with it, not my problem. I have other things to deal with rather than someone else's dissatisfaction with the description of my gender.. As I said, as a woman it feels like the traditional disrespect we encounter most of the time.
@@khem127 You say "cis" is imposed by a minority, but how do you know the term unless society in general has decided that cis is the word that means "happy with your assigned gender"? And since you are happy with your assigned gender, why not use the word that means that? What's wrong with doing a thing that costs us nothing and may help us to describe ourselves? I'm unsure what specific kind of disrespect you're equating it to - no one is forcing you to use the word, only saying it would be more polite to do so, yes? As I understand it, it's just a useful way to allow you to describe yourself if you feel you need to. If some people feel that "woman" on its own is insufficient description, what does that have to do with anything about the meaning of the word itself? It's still an accurate descriptor, a word we didn't have before, a word some people feel like they need, and a word that doesn't have any disrespectful connotations like "pu**y" or "c**t". So the people you have chosen to be around think you should use it and you resent that? Okay. That's a personal thing, and has nothing to do with the general use of the word. I'd still go through your feelings about it (I mean, I had major hangups about the word feminism for many years) and try to make up a word you feel would express it better. And if you don't feel strongly enough about it to think that hard about it, then, really, why do you feel strongly enough about it to object in the first place? It's not a word specifically applied to women, after all, it's applied to all those who feel happy with the gender they were assigned at birth. Being a majority doesn't excuse us from responsibilities, and having the words to accurately describe ourselves is one of them. Use it or not, like the word or not, it's word we have right now.
@@khem127 I'm curious why you think you can't still just call yourself a woman? Personally, I still refer to myself as a woman all the time, including in the company of trans friends, and not once has anyone objected or tried to correct me or anything of the kind.
Sometimes, depending on the context, it can be helpful to distinguish between cis women and trans women, or between cis people and trans people, or any number of other combinations. For example, the comment you're responding to probably wanted to make it known that she's both a woman and has never been on the receiving end of male socialization. But she didn't have to, it's just extra context. I refer to myself as cis mostly when discussing transphobia, to let people know that I'm in the discussion as an ally rather than someone on the receiving end, and my direct experience is limited. But even then, or even when I forget to mention it, no one ever acts like I MUST disclose that info, MUST use the term "cis" to describe myself, I just do it because that's the rare circumstance where it's relevant and I want to be clear.
Tl;dr: you can absolutely still just call yourself a woman.
NGL, i was one of them. I was raised motherless and my dad always told me my sisters deserved better treatment (a bedroom, a bathroom, phones, quiet time) by a very young age made me first feel worthless and later maybe misoginistic when i reached the maturity to understand the unfair treatment. I still feel worthless in a bit of a healthier/lesser way. Also didn't help that the only other people that showed me love as a kid were men who probably had an underlying intention on abusing me (touchy subject, not gonna get into it)
You are not worthless, and the fact that you've experienced that kind of pain and are working to heal and improve as a person speaks volumes. I feel like a lot of us could get better at compassion by extending it to ourselves first.
^^ thank you, it means a lot
@@FinntasticMrFox I always found it hard to feel for myself but not for others. Might be a depression thing. One thing that helps me is visualising myself as my best friend. What would I say/do if my best friend behaved the way I did? If I remember to do that, it helps me be kinder to myself.
I'm gonna Respeccccctttt Wah-mannnnn
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
I've always hated the notion that men aren't allowed to feel bad because they're not oppressed. It's just perpetuating the idea that you can never complain because someone else will always have it worse.
"How dare you waste food, there are children starving in Africa," "how dare you want a nicer house, some people don't have one at all," "how dare you be insecure, you have male privilege" - it's all the same goddamn thing. Men are allowed to feel things, especially when you're demanding they improve themselves, refusing to explain how, and then complaining when they don't instantly figure it out.
If you think women should be treated better but think men don't deserve the same, then that's not equality, it's just misandry.
@@ajasenI got this from F.D. Signifier here on UA-cam, but men are only rewarded for being men if they conform to "hegemonic masculinity"
If they don't, they can be punished for their non conformity.
Jew max
@@Pensnmusic F.D is the best for lines like that.
@@Pensnmusic FD is the shit! 💙
I think part of the issue is: Most suffering is a result of the capitalism and classism that patriarchy is the supporter of. So when we hear men feel sorry for themselves its like: WTF? Men like this system of classism because it allows them to lord over women, yet they hypocritically feel sorry for themselves when their capitalist overlords treat them the same crappy, demanding, dehumanizing way that men treat women. Its hard to feel sympathy for the group that harms you when you finally see them get the same treatment they happily dole out.
"I've been pulling the rug out from under people and then been shocked when they were unsteady and upset about it." A good thing to keep in mind when debating with someone is asking yourself what kind of argument would ever make YOU change your mind on something you believed strongly in.
Which is why I think it’s vital that men, or at least those who understand this particular male experience, are essential in convincing and supporting those men on this journey. Some people straight up can’t relate to men about these problems, so of course they’re not always going to be as empathetic or as readily able to convince someone on this issue.
I’ve been loving the recent videos by you and others talking about the Manosphere as a reflection of the real need for men to find emotional validation. It just sucks that there are so many people out there who profit off of diverting these real needs of men into distain for women, and deplatforming any one of them is like whack-a-mole. My young brother is 11 and entering middle school, and I worry for him because even though I think he’s a pretty emotionally well adjusted kid, 11 is a very insecure age when a lot of boys develop misogynistic beliefs to compensate for the insecurity of not being “man enough”. Keep your boys of social media as long as possible, teach them how to communicate and express themselves, give them a safe space to do so, allow them to make mistakes but still shut down bad behavior when it comes. So much of healing from patriarchy boils down to just being human with them.
It's so important to make sure boys have good role models. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Man Enough podcast, but it's a fabulous resource. Might be a little bit beyond some boys, but it's certainly better than the manosphere crap, and it's worth trying if they're looking for role models.
@@FinntasticMrFox thank you for the recommendation. It’s really important for me that I can be a good role model for my brother and I’m doing a lot of learning on my part right now to figure out how best to do that.
Muh-patriar©h¥
In my eagerness to shut down the toxic behavior of my fellow men, I failed to consider how to communicate a workable alternative. I believe you are on the right track and will examine better strategies for responding to men.
I'm one of the non-men viewers. I was a little worried before watching this, but I shouldn't have been. Your videos have been consistently good. I think I understand what you're trying to do, and I hope you're able to do it. Maybe I feel the same way about white people. If men are going to change, it's something men need to work out among themselves. It's not fair to ask women and other feminine presenting people to do that. Likewise, I think white people need to step up and start asking each other to change. It's not fair to expect BIPOC to do this. It needs to come from within. Thanks for another great video!
I'm a white person, and I totally agree with this. I think we need healthy spaces to vent our ignorance (whether willful or learned) without placing that burden on those oppressed by it. It's also less embarrassing to get called out by another white person, since there's likely going to be some empathy around also having said or done some inadvertent (or not) racist, etc. stuff. This also sets an example that it's not the end of the world to get called out on some ignorant shit, and it can be a learning experience. There is definitely a time and place to shame and/or deplatform people. However, interpersonally I don't think it's very helpful to ostracize someone who may be genuinely trying to grow and just lacks the toolkit to do it. This growth can be clumsy, which brings me back to my first point that it's important for white people to run interference, so BIPOC don't have to deal with it.
Jew max
@@karl_margs shut up oh my god
I believe what he is saying is related to how we raise boys is what creates this toxicity. We all have been indoctrinated since birth by the patriarchy which encourages male supremacy and belittles and mocks anything remotely feminine. And we women are just as guilty because internalized misogyny is real. An example, when girls/women say "I'm not like most girls" that is stating that women who embrace femininity are less than. Most are completely unaware of this. And women who mock men as weak if they show emotion (any emotion besides anger or aggression). The patriarchy and capitalism require hierarchies and this only serves the top 1% and corporations. They create these "culture wars", racism, "invasion of immigrants who are taking your jobs", voter fraud etc etc., to distract from the actual people doing harm and keeping the population under control by fighting amongst themselves.
Totally agree with this.
"You cannot punish the world into granting you happiness and satisfaction." That's such a good way of putting it. 🤯
Masculine men are lovely. Feminine men are lovely. Everything between is lovely.
I'm disabled and basically prisoner in my own home, so I know what loneliness is and it can be much more crippling than the pain I feel. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Everyone should get hugs often if they want them, and be complimented regularly. We all deserve it.
We absolutely do. Thank you for this. 💙
This.
I am glad that this is what appears to be a turning tide in feminist discourse. As cathartic as it has been to dunk on men and masculinity for a lot of us, I have thought more than once that it also makes our insistence that men are indeed included in feminism seem insincere at best. Speaking personally, it probably would have helped me figure out I wasn't one a lot faster if I felt people gave a damn about my inner struggles back then, and I know I can't be the only person who was beaten down by society telling me to buck up and get shit done, and feminists mocking me for being an emotionless sex machine -- even when, intellectually, I understood that it was society they were meaning to tell off.
There's no doubt in my mind that it's a big factor in the rift between us and those caught in the fascist pipeline. And I really, truly hope we can present a positive alternative to that manosphere gateway *soon enough* that we won't have to suffer a million more cycles of descending to violence again.
But *should* men be included in feminism? Maybe straight men should, but for gays it seems a net loss.
@@seto749 how so?
@@seto749 it feels like you're implying that sexual fulfillment is the only reason to care about someone.
@@Africa893 Not at all. Feminism is the wrong lens through which to tackle gay (to be G-specific) issues. I think feminists have succeeded in establishing that women have their own needs when it comes to standards of consent. Fine and good. In many things that involve women, replacing the "reasonable man" standard with a "reasonable woman" standard can be an improvement. But to apply women's standards universally isn't The Answer many people think it is. Pornography is similar; the claim of a growing number of feminists that All Porn Degrades Women because all gay porn makes one performer a substitute woman is a massive overreach.
While I usually agree with individual feminist positions, I've gone off feminism as a movement since US feminist groups erased gays from marriage equality. That seemed a clear signal that it wants to be the only ideology at the table, and I fear one party power.
Yeah I never understood how the people with the "male tears" cups can demand of me to be more open about my emotions.
Thank you, I usually mock this kind of men, but now you made me see a person where I usually see a joke, but I am still afraid, as a gay man, to approach this kind of people
Very understandable. People who are threatened by these men have no obligation to approach them or perform the emotional labour a lot of them need. We do definitely need to see each other as human, though, and exercise compassion, and I'm glad that's your new leaning. I'm hoping that if we can all exercise that basic understanding, more guys who are hurting will open up to receiving (and giving!) compassion.
@@FinntasticMrFox I found your channel through another queer person's channel, and I am glad that I found myself here, your perspective about problems that both the queer community and male culture have is giving me new food for thought. Thanks a lot for it! :D
Then dont approach them at all...
I came across you and this wonderful video from Jessie Gender's community page, and I love it. However, I will be honest with you, and I would like to dissent from you and about 90% of the commenters: I do not share the same enthusiasm and optimism in helping these men. I think helping these men is a very tall order that in my case, requires so much compassion that it feels so daunting.
I'd like to explain my pessimism and caution. I am a queer AMAB in a developing country in Asia, where patriarchal values (or toxic masculinity, patriarchal masculinity, whatever you call it) is probably even more intense compared to the US and European countries. As I received male socialization and am therefore in close proximity to the boys and men, I have had to bond with them since my childhood. It is genuinely traumatizing.
One of the most painful discoveries as a queer boy; through locker room talk, conversation in class, etc; is that most straight boys and even men often bond through ridiculing queerness, which is an integral part of me as a queer person. An explanation that felt so spot on yet hits like a brick is from the book "Dude, You're a F*g" by C.J. Pascoe, explaining that boys use these homophobic slurs and essentially "perform" homophobia to cement relationships and reduce social anxiety. For these boys whom I have shared precious friendship moments with and want to connect deeper as friends, I am essentially the lowest outcast that they are anxious to be, and they bond with each other by making fun of people like me. This is true to my experience as I am made fun of, punished, and ostracized because of my atypical gender presentation. Yet, despite all of that suffering, I'm one of the lucky ones because my queerness and femininity just happen to be more easily hidden. Other queer boys in my country weren't as fortunate. And the insulting (yet sometimes I wish it were true) stereotype of "the loudest homophobic ones are usually the gay ones" is not true: most of these men are cis and straight. It's just plain derision because I exist differently.
When people hear my story, they categorize it as a problem of homophobia; as an LGBT issue; and rightfully so. But I've been thinking; isn't it also an issue about men and masculinity? Am I not also a man that has been alienated, and denied intimacy, support, love, and friendship because of society's very harmful constructs of masculinity? Quite similar to these struggling men we're talking about? When these men lament about how women and society treat them, I can't help but realize that it's essentially how they treat me since I was a boy. It is intensely heart-wrenching (to an almost cringe level) to realize that the men whom I have feelings for would shudder in disgust if they were to hear the love that I harbor for them; because that's exactly how they reacted when they see queer people existing. I have similar experiences as them that technically it would be easy to empathize and be compassionate, yet must I really? After what they have done to me? Sometimes I feel like exacting revenge against them, but I never did. Because it would mean to stoop down to their level.
Where I and those men differ is that I find my love and communion in queer allies (who in my life are all women), and fellow queer and trans people; what the internet now fashionably calls "the girls, gays, and theys". And as I grow up, I have the privilege to encounter a few wonderful cis-straight men and masculine queer men and see firsthand the wonders of healthy, well-developed masculinities: the beautiful juxtaposition of strength and vulnerability, the serene feeling of being taken care of that they bring, the rugged playfulness, touch, and humor mixed with their tender sensibility. I've seen how wonderful and beautiful these men who are socialized with love are. So I agree with you when you say that we as a society need to help these men who are still struggling. In every aspect of improving society, they are worth it to fight for.
Yet, it's so hard to join this enthusiasm when I remember how I have been and continue to be hurt because of those men. It's even harder when you are online and finds the most extreme versions of these struggling men (thanks, internet algorithms) collecting around building a reaction against feminism and the liberation of other marginalized groups; it makes it seem like it's a futile cause even if I know it's not. I know it's worth it, but to collect that compassion and strength as someone still in their 20s trying to recover from the past... yeah it's a tall order, and I know it's not my responsibility, but I'm still gonna try. Sorry for the long-ass essay!!!
Please don't apologize! Your experience is exactly what we need! Thank you for sharing, I absolutely agree with your assessment about queer ridicule - it really feels like this is one of the only angles that men have to bond with one another.
I also appreciate that you don't have as much enthusiasm, and I think something that I've noticed absent in the conversations I've seen on the left, is a recognition of the work that cis men, trans men and women and some enby and other queer folk have been doing for ages on this work. It's exhausting. Just existing in it is exhausting.
You - you personally, and many others who have seen and understood these issues for so long, but like specifically I'm talking about You -
You deserve to rest and lose optimism, and have the expectation that the rest of the people in and around you/ your communities continue to do the work so you can recover. You deserve that. I'm sorry it hasn't been that way.
Please don’t apologize! I’m happy you shared it, and you bring up a lot of extremely important points (many of which resonate with me as a queer man, myself.)
I think it’s important to make space for people who have been hurt to opt out of any emotional labour, and certainly to opt out of active, enthusiastic participation. It’s also important for those people to have space to share their pain honestly, and that absolutely *is* part of male expression and healing for other men who have been hurt by dominance based masculinity. I appreciate you bringing that up.
This is a change we all have to make together, but that doesn’t mean we all have to be putting ourselves out there-especially not for the very type of people who have hurt us. Sharing your story like you just did is part of it, too. You’re allowed to rescue just one person from suffering, and that person can be yourself.
this is late. But thank you for your experience. It has helped me in grasping a lot of stuff
I really love that we are finnally having honest discussions of toxic masculinity and actually looking for solutions to help men.
>JustBlameToXiCMuh-sculinityBro lol
This prøblem requires a final sølution💀:
>[F0RCED M0N0GAM¥]Goes brrrrrrrr
Consciousness raising groups in the 60s & 70s were integral to women finding community and learning about the ways in which society worked against them during second wave feminism. Your call to action here- of men who know the territory stepping up and reaching out to those who have fallen into anger and aggression- feels a lot like a new form of consciousness raising. Men who feel isolated are not alone but they need compassionate people who will show them how to healthily express their emotions rather than turning their hurt into vitriol and violence towards women
As a trans woman I experience some of these still just from how I was raised. However, I started my transition having been fed up with my experiences growing up with boys. I feel like men need to love each other more because they learn the language of violence starting in early childhood. As a boy I struggled with all the things you've stated here as I was always gentle and kind, and from grades 6 to 12 I avoided making friends with boys because too many would accept the toxicity and run with it. I was so happy to finally get emotional support when I transitioned. Was like being allowed to breathe. I firmly believe when men are capable of loving each other, they will be better equipped to love their partner. But that love can't involve anger and nihilism towards an out group.
This all reminds me that trans people understand sex and gender better than almost everyone else, yet we are treated like we understand it the least. We have women who were raised as boys and men raised as girls. Of course we got a grasp on this stuff.
I understood my gender identity fully when I realized feminine is what I make of it. Because I'm a woman the things I do are feminine, by tautology. Only with confidence could say any of this. In a parallel universe, women's culture is violent and men's is submissive. So if cis men are coming of age they really should just focus on the kind of person they want to be and have the confidence to say "because I'm a man, what I'm doing is masculine and nobody can shake me". How come some men, famous manly men, cross dress on camera for "humor" with total confidence in their manhood? Their definition of masculinity stems from a more solid grasp of gender identity, so their definition of masculinity is simply whatever it is they do.
The wonderful insight that trans people have is that you can derive confidence in your gender identity in such a way as to avoid the entire debacle of what it means to be masculine and a man. You already are your gender identity, you don't need to do anything to be a man. Being an adult is another story and heavily dependent on the culture, the politics, and the economy. Being an adult is hard enough, we should all let go of trying to ensure all of our actions are in alignment with our gender or sex.
Yeah, becoming an adult in this society is hard enough as is, we shouldn’t have to worry about whether we are sticking to gender roles enough. We deserve to be secure in our identity.
I think a huge part of the reason why so many cis people trying to silence trans people is because we offer these very insights and challenge the status quo. It goes back to people not liking their structures (their security) being challenged because they don't know what's outside of them. It's why it's such a powerful act for trans people to not only exist, but to *thrive* in our existence.
@@FinntasticMrFox I agree with that.
And considering how hard it is for everyone to live up to the gender expectations most cis ppl really struggle too and then when they see us just break the rules and expectations they get furious, because to them it feels like we're cheating.
Very much this.
We should really have trans ppl as heads of all equality organizations and such.
@@doggytheanarchist7876 🙄
Full privilege checklist here (wealthy, able, cis, white, male, etc) just found your channel. By 6min into this video I had to pause and dry my eyes. You PERFECTLY put words to the feeling of not being allowed to have or express feelings of struggle or isolation because there's no way I could feel that way because of my mountain of privilege.
To answer your question of "Is there one thing I want people to wake and know about me?" Its that despite my privilege, I still experience the full range of human emotions and the fact that means I also sometimes experience strong negative emotions doesn't mean I'm automatically a threat or dangerous or a liability, it means I'm a human being who is suffering.
As someone who grew up in rural Rustbelt America, I also feel qualified in saying that you successfully spoke in a manner that would draw in the sort of man you are trying to reach.
With that in mind, What can I do to help?
Right now all I can think to do is continue to learn why i am the way I am and also ask myself and my guys as often as possible, "How are you feeling?" And give space for a full answer.
But that feels like small potatoes given the scope the problem.
I feel like that's a great thing to do, especially given the nature of the problem. Part of the issue is that a lot of men struggle to open up to others (especially each other) so it's going to take all of us building that culture of checking in and showing care.
A big problem means teamwork is needed to address it, so building those connections and empowering each other is everything. You say small potatoes, but just showing the desire to enrich others and encourage well-being is already doing so much.
I'm really, really glad to hear you felt seen by this video. It's encouraging to hear from guys who are keen to help and in the process of unpacking this stuff.
If progressive men don't talk about this, the Petersons or Tates of the world will.
YUP.
I dont want to replace toxic masculinity with femininity, I want to replace it with a new, healthier idea of masculinity. Thank you for helping us build that and making the space. Dog bless.
Dog Bless!
What is this "Dog bless" thing? I love it. I hope it's not just a typo?
Thank you so much for making this video. I didn’t realize how impactful words of support can be. Hearing someone acknowledge the pain a lot of men are experiencing instead of mocking it was so refreshing and such a relief. Every time men’s issues are brought up I kind of internally brace myself for the hurtful words I’m most likely about to read from people about men. I know I shouldn’t take it personally, but it’s really hard not to and it really hurts feeling like society genuinely just doesn’t want you around. It’s crazy how one person in a UA-cam video saying that he sees me was enough for me to break down into tears. Again, I can’t thank you enough for making this video, and I’m so happy I found your channel.
I also want to let you know that your hairstyle looks really good
And I'm so happy you're here, and that this resonated with you. There is this looming air of suspicion and exclusion toward boys and men in the social sphere, and it makes perfect sense that a lot of guys would feel alienated and lost. Just acknowledging that it's not our imaginations can be a huge weight off the shoulders. Shrugging off that weight makes it easier to move forward together.
Hang in there, brother. 💙
Thank you for sharing, Bendo. Much love to you 💜💜💜
Brendo I hope you are able to continue to find opportunity to feel seen. Thank you for sharing. You matter.
Thanks for tackling this as a man. I really appreciate you and F.D. doing so.
Simple solution: stop thinking in concepts of "masculinity" and "femininity", start thinking "humanity". Stop dividing, start uniting.
I am coming to this conclusion as well when i realized that I couldn't define what makes something inherently masculine or feminine outside of the cultural lens.
@Brett M Femininity and masculinity are not biological concepts. They are social ones.
It's why I hate the term "Toxic Masculinity" so much. Feminism hasn't been fixing "Toxic Femininity" it's been "Empowering Women"
it's always a good day when there's a new finn video!
It really breaks my heart that men aren't allowed to be openly affectionate with their friends. If you look at photos from a century ago, you see men being platonically affectionate--hugging each other, arms around shoulders, just a whole lot more intimacy. I don't know why this disappeared, but I think it's a huge part of the problem that it did.
YES. I think about this all the time. The vast majority of people really, really need that physical contact, it's so important for our health and happiness.
This is so true! You are not alone to think about that, I'm happy that this discussion is finally happening. About a month ago, I watched another video tackling this subject in depth, by a cis youtuber ( The Burgerkrieg, male isolation), and saw that whether trans or cis, this is a real issue we all face. Thank you for this video! 👍🏽
This is a beautiful video. I am not a man, but I know these issues affect the men and masculine people in my life, and hearing someone be so empathic to them, gave me some more insite, and made me feel a little teary. I can't imagine what it must feel like to be a man and hear this things. To all the men watching this, I too wish you all the happiness and understanding.
No man is watching this seriously lol
I understand how empathy can be difficult since many "toxically masculine" men pose a real physical danger to others. But I agree that the problem is systemic and not the fault of any individual. Bottom line is we need to teach boys to embrace the full range of emotions at their disposal and not just anger/aggression.
I feel like I do but no one else around me as in real people in my life, man or woman, is willing to reciprocate those feelings in a way that feels validating so I just keep quiet and outlet my frustrations on my workout routine.
@@jamesklark6562
Don't fall for this trap , Bro-Çel
I’m glad to see a man taking a genuine look at this major problem
these are two different ways to address the "what about the men" issue. 1 is playing into the toxic side of things, if some man responds to increasing diversity so that women are equally represented, feels oppressed because he's lost power, asking "but what about the men" is the wrong question. 2 if people see that a man can only respond to sadness by becoming aggressive, we can see that he needs to learn new skills and shed outdated beliefs; then we can ask "but what about the men, they need empathy and help to be healthy inwardly and in society" then it's the right question.
Oh yeah, many men have a need to feel powerful, and that’s definitely another problem that needs addressing.
@@potatoman-oe5jy agreed. I believe that the reason some men need to feel powerful is that they were denied expressions of sadness, joy, tears and the like. Since they don't know how to be sad, they get angry since it's the only way they were taught to respond. We need to be open to letting the toxic guys be vulnerable, so show them it's ok.
@@wellingtonsmith4998 I agree, in some cases that is true, and those people deserve the help and support to become better, but I also hope it is clear that some people are out there for power and do not care who they hurt to get it. I do not want people being taken advantage of by these people because they will use your kindness against you. Be safe, and I hope we both help those in need.
Really appreciating this exchange between you and potatoman2100. There are definitely people out there that are deep in some hateful rhetoric, who see any equality as a loss of power and resist. I hope that as we encourage more boys and men to express themselves in healthy ways, it becomes easier to differentiate, because you're right about the response being different depending on what's being responded to.
@@FinntasticMrFox the only advice I'd give you is about presentation: review your outline before you start shooting, tell us what you're going to cover (the chapters if you will) and give a brief ( 1 min) summery of your opinion at the beginning
As a trans man, this has been super helpful for me in my empathy of the other guys around me. I used to mock other men and the concept of toxic masculinity from the place of being a man, not acknowledging that my initial upbringing before my transition gave me a widely different skill set than other cis men. It’s a point of view I hadn’t considered and that I need to work on.
Yeah, as much as it isn’t easy being trans, I thank my lucky stars that I wasn’t raised as a cis guy in a toxic masculinity world. My family was so abusive that I might of become just as violent as my brother, who even started looking up to rapists at one point.
I think there is a silver lining and I’m grateful that I can sort of relate to mens issues from this perspective instead of that being the only thing I knew.
@@butterflypooo I say this all of the time! I know without a shadow of a doubt if I was cis I would be just as douchy and as violent the men in my family and community growing up.
@@KDCade I mean, idk if I would be violent … I’ve always been the scapegoat child and left out, but I know I’d be a lot more lonely and be more scared to ask for help. That’s for sure.
Omg I'm so happy you posted this! THIS is what I've been trying to say all along!
I'm a girl, who frequently deals with frustrated/hurt boys who are slowly but surely getting lost in the manosphere & it always breaks my heart. I always try to confront them with empathy, as well as good counter arguments, and I've never seen a video that is saying exactly what I mean.
I really hope that as many men as possible see this vid bc it's genuinely the first one I've seen, that's doing what is needed. Thank you!
Lmao EmpathyMaxxing is Law
You're a good person for me to listen to, Finn. When I'm trying to reckon with some part of how I was socialized to be a man, it's easy for me to lose patience - or with others, to forget that not everyone has had to same tools or opportunities as me to interrogate that kind of thing. Also easy to forget that it might be better to be gentle with yourself when admitting you've been wrong about something. I still really like that last video you referenced here, and glad to see you building on it. Looking forward to seeing where you take it!
Being gentle with yourself is key, because I know from my experience others might not give you that luxury. I hope you find people who are willing to support you and treat you right on your journey of self discovery.
Chill Goblin sent me over here and I'm glad he did. I can only hope a bunch of men trapped in loneliness and anger can realize that they don't need to be like that. That they'll still be themselves even if it they let go of the hate and frustration. That they can be open and vulnerable and, even if people make fun of them for it, they'll be happier if they just stop responding to everything with bile and fury.
Great video. Keep it up!
Watching this video made me consider: what if Loki stopped murdering people, became a compassionate softboy, and started a UA-cam channel?
And I gotta say, hell yeah
This is definitely a lot to think about, and I think you've got a good, nuanced take here. It's true, if we constantly condemn the bad but don't promote better ideas to replace them, or provide a space where these men are accepted and valued as they are (a space where they're allowed to screw up and learn from their mistakes), they're never going to be drawn out of these spaces. After all, loneliness is part of the problem. Ostracization just drives them further away.
You've also won me over with your argument that we need a different term to describe these bad ideas than toxic masculinity. I'm not sure what to replace it with though. Internalized misandry is too esoteric, and has too many negative associations. There's value in contrasting pro-social and anti-social behaviour, but that's its own rabbit hole. I'm sorta thinking that perhaps we shouldn't replace it with a single term, but instead refer to more specific things, sub-categories that can be tackled one at a time. It's a broad umbrella, and breaking it down into more digestible behaviours, ideas and attitudes might make the meal more palatable.
After reading some of the other comments I think I agree with the points they've made, that this is definitely an issue where men need to be helping other men with these issues. Those of us who learned these pro-social behaviours need to help those who haven't, to help them develop those skills and give them room to mess up and make mistakes (mistakes pave the way to learning, after all). The problem is that to access this kind of help, you usually need to know someone who can provide this support. Connecting men who need this support to those who can provide it is going to be critical here (and I'm already supporting someone who needs that kind of help, so I can't take on anyone else for awhile).
We need to bundle acceptance, learning and support together and that's a tall order. Still, at least we know what we need, and that's a place to start.
Regarding the part about the term that could replace "toxic masculinity", to better describe problems..
From the comment's I had seen so far, someone sujested "Patriarcall masculinity" as an replacement. And maybe that's me, but I think this could work.
@@dedalionarts6077 Toxic gender roles?
>ToXiC Muh-sculinity
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Really can't fathom your channel hasn't blown up yet! You really speak the message the world needs to hear these days. Thanks for your work 🙏
I definitely had a period where I very easily could’ve fallen into the redpill/manosphere aspect of the internet. Fortunately, I didn’t.
I think the biggest thing it took for me to realize and overcome such a difficult point in my life was simply to realize that my emotions were not a burden for other people. I’d been broken up with, was having difficulty in school, and didn’t have many friends. But every time I thought about my suffering, I thought about how ungrateful it seemed. I would think about how my emotions would just add more stress to my family that already worked so hard and did so much for me. I felt like my suffering wasn’t justified and, even more than that, it would only make my family’s life harder if I expressed it.
Eventually, I had a long conversation with my dad into the early hours of the morning. He explained to me that sharing your emotions is actually something the people who care about you WANT you to do, which blew my mind. He talked about how part of becoming a parent or a close friend was understanding that sometimes that person would have to lean on you (I guess more so in the parent case, but you get the idea). Since then, that’s always been something I’ve considered with my emotions. I always try to think about how I’m feeling and consider if I had a friend feeling the same way if I’d want them to tell me. Cause the thing is, everyone feels good and wants to help when someone they care about opens up to them. So now I’m better about talking to people went something gets too heavy or difficult. I feel more comfortable going to my parents or to my friends about my struggles and feelings because I know they’re not perceived as a burden, but as a blessing. And I try to encourage my friends to think the same way, always asking them how they’re doing and if they’re alright when they’re in a tough spot.
People want to help you, even if you think your feelings are bullshit or would be a nuisance to them. It makes people feel good to talk to others and offer their support and advice.
Your dad sounds like a wonderful man, thank you so much for sharing this. 💙
honestly, this new wave of men talking about the good ending to the evolution of masculinity like this feels like, again, the good ending version of MGTOWs and i’m not opposed to it
I think the aspect of masculinity that I aspire to the most at least is secure confidence. Being able to just exist and do you without the need to justify your existence. Of course, I myself have lots of social anxiety, but I aspire to that level of confidence.
Some features of my masculinity that make me happy: being the dude who takes care of the bugs and home improvement projects in my home so my spouse doesn't have to worry about them. Taking things apart to learn how they work and trying to put them together again. Doing the research for travel and road trips so that I have all the details ready and I'm taking care of my party. I'm getting really into gardening because it fuels my provider instinct- there's something special about making a meal for my family that I grew and cooked myself. It feels the same way as fishing for me. Generally just being reliable and a provider, even if it's in non-traditional ways.
Makes me think of my favourite Mr. Rogers quote: "Taking care is one way to show your love. Another way is letting people take good care of you when you need it."
this content is criminally underwatched. so glad i found it.
Thank you soo much! I've been looking for a video like this since forever! Everything you say hits the nail right on the head! We've needed a video like this with a MEASURED nuisance response for these issues kudos my friend
I think you meant "nuance" instead of "nuisance" 😅
@@CattyAttie yes...I did...auto correct is jot my friend 😁
Just want to say I really appreciate what you're doing with this. I hope we can lift each other up into better versions of ourselves and live happier, more fulfilling lives together. Thanks dude.
I really like your work. Also, that shirt looks really good on you! (hope that's not creepyto say).
Something I like about masculinity is how many guys are always ready to help. I only wish we would extend that helpfulness to other guys as well. I often see men come to the aid of women struggeling with heavy luggage and stuff, but same is not done for men with heavy luggage. That's something I want to work on!
That's a great thing to point out, I want to work on that, too. I think the culture of male competition makes it hard for guys to help each other, but the examples I've seen of dudes helping each other out are always so wholesome. Definitely wanna see more of that.
This is a really good point and something that has become obvious to me since I transitioned. I recently moved by myself and I noticed that no one asked if I needed help, even when I was visibly struggling with heavy boxes. When I was perceived as a girl, people would have definitely offered to help me in that situation.
This!! I love that about masculinity too
LMAO Muh-sculinity is good
only when it benefits Wah-man
Women have a century's worth of History debating what it means to be a woman, and literally thousands of role models, who lead the way, and showed different paths to follow. The meaning of that, can't be understated.
We've only just started having the same conversation for men. Like Finn said, this video isn't for me, but personally, I believe in helping raise the voices of men who embody healthy masculinity. And fortunately, there are a lot, Knowing Better and Cinema Therapy are two of my personal favorites here o UA-cam.
Ok, but women built that for themselves while being told off and indoctrinated, while men had role models for far longer. That they no longer apply to what is happening today is a result of society changing, but women still to this day don't have as many role models as men ever had.
Pop Culture Detective is amazing too
If you can't find any positive male role models idk where you're looking.
I disagree. We have literally hundreds of years of what it means to be a man because being a man was the default state. Everyone from Socrates to Steinbeck and the myriad of people in between have been debating and exemplifying this.
@@IrishMorgenstern yes, but all those meanings aren't meaningful anymore. Men need to rebuild their identities from the ashes.
Honestly weirdly enough something that helped a lot with me and my relation to masculinity was my college fraternity. It helped that in one part one of our open mottos is "every man a man" and this was part of why we accepted anyone so long as they identify as male but toe this helped that giving me the headspace that "whatever you do so long as you say you're a man that's being a man", it helped with that trans idea that I am who I say I am not because of my "inherent biology" but because I get to say that I am a man. My fraternity also helped because my brothers either softly or hard called out shitty toxic behavior because we were all there together because we liked each other so why would we be mean to each other
Bro culture gets stereotyped as inherently toxic, and that can happen, but honestly, it's usually the source of some of the most positive masculinity I've ever seen. Men supporting men and encouraging growth and happiness.
I think you've nailed what interacting with these topics feels like to lots of men. There was always something that felt bad about the framing of things with words like feminism, patriarchy and toxic masculinity. The ideas are perfectly fine, but the terms to describe them are gendered and thus always made it feel like there's an undertone of "women good, men bad" and I found that repulsive. Yes, irrational knee jerk reaction indeed! But the thing about knee jerk reactions is that they simply happen, so it helps to not be accommodating to people that have one, and this video is exactly that. So thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Amazing video, you gained a subscriber! I hope this doesn't come across as too whiny, but I have a story to share. It's a story about my own trajectory, so if you don't want to read it, there's no obligation:
about a full decade ago I was a progressive dude. Maybe a little rough around some edges, I was 18, but I truly believe my heart was in the right place. I would have called myself a feminist, and cared about women's issues. However, it seemed wherever I went in online progressive spaces, if I ever decided to talk about issues men face, I'd just get dogpiled, belittled, smeared as a misogynist, and thoroughly dunked on. Even statements like "Men are also victims of the patriarchy" would draw serious ire, and open up another wave of the same stuff. Simply trying to get through to a misogynistic guy instead of just screaming at him totally destroyed the only social life I ever had in college. Maybe this was simply an issue in all the spaces I was in at the time, and virtually nowhere else, _this is after all just an anecdote,_ but I feel like early 2010s progressivism/feminism had a genuine man-hating problem. At the very least a serious issue with telling apart people talking about men's issues because they care about men's issues, and disingenuous trolls just doing so to whatabout women's issues.
After years of dealing with this treatment, I unfortunately became what they wanted me to be so badly. This isn't to make excuses for myself(seriously, fuck me for going down that road, I look back at this time with deep shame and I deserve to feel that), but simply to highlight that when you constantly assume the worst about a person and belittle, mock, and antagonize them, you're creating prime targets for all sorts of radicalization. I never engaged in any direct harassment as an anti-SJW but I had bought into some pretty stupid stuff, and if not for some core guiding principles, I would have absolutely been dragged all the way down. When I left, I lost all of the friends I made at that point in my life because by the time I woke up, they were just too far gone. I feel like the sole survivor from a village where everyone was zombified by brain parasites. I feel impotent that I could not bring even one person with me when I left, that to every single person in it, my friendship was just worthless compared to the hateful ideology that was just reinforcing their own misery as it had mine, and driving them mad. Those years I spent in those spaces accomplished nothing and meant nothing, the only thing I gained was an important life lesson in not letting spite dictate your decisions. Leaving was the best thing I have ever done for my own mental health.
I feel like online left/progressive spaces have come a long way since those days. As you pointed out, it's not like _totally_ gone, but even the reactions to the PT article feel fairly tame compared to how bad it used to be. I have a theory that the problem left with the TERFs, reinforced mainly by a lot of "where are they now" for the biggest drivers of this sentiment, but this comment is long enough as it is, and maybe you already have a video on it(I just found your channel). Sorry for the super long comment by the way, I just wanted to get this off my chest. This is the first time I've posted this anywhere public in the years since I walked away the right, mainly because I fear being subjected to the same antagonistic pile-ons I experienced all those years ago. If that befalls this comment, all I can say is go ahead, you cannot possibly convince me to go back.
Anyhow, thanks for reading all of this. I'm so happy to see videos like this, thank you so much for posting it.
Please don't apologize, I'm really glad you shared this experience, and you did so with a whole lot of self-awareness and understanding. This is a really important story, and while I'm sorry you had this experience, I hope it can help other people understand this whole issue better. Because you're right. It's not the "fault" of feminists who said those things that you were pulled into that thinking, personal responsibility is important to hold, but at the same time, when you repeatedly make someone full alienated and hated, they're going to turn to the first source of acceptance and comfort they can find. Hate groups *know this* and prey on the vulnerability of alienation. So it's not anyone's "fault", but it's unrealistic to say they don't contribute to the problem, it's all interconnected.
Good on you for breaking out, questioning, and growing in spite of what you went through.
I'm really grateful for your long comment. Your experience is really important, and I am fascinated by several of your thoughts here. I had also never considered what you mention about the shift happening with TERFs.
I wanted to say, I hear what you're saying about owning your choices and you deserve the agency to be responsible for your feelings and your story about them - and also, I hope that you can be gentle with yourself and begin to let go of the shame you're carrying. ❤️ As someone who's been forced into high responsibility from a young age and carried an awful lot of it, I think shame is meant to be a temporary indicator that we're meant to learn from and change something - not a burden which stays with us. It eats away at our bodies.
Your health and wellbeing matter.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
This video really impacted me, both as a transmasc person and a researcher who looks at gender in college STEM. It really summed up my complex feelings of being right on the fuzzy line between being trans masc and being a trans man. Every time I've tried out he pronouns in a space that isn't entirely trans, and someone calls me he, I immediately see a prison of the sort you described being built around me. A set of expectations where to be "a normal man" I have to discard my empathy and my preference to talk about emotions often and straight forwardly, even though to me, those are part of my masculinity. While it's a horrible nuisance trying to get people to understand nonbinary identity, getting people to accept a man who proudly wears makeup, speaks with lots of emotion and gesture, and doesn't care what's considered feminine or masculine by others is even harder.
Finn, keep up this needed work. I'll try to keep up mine, making STEM a place where some of these harmful ideals can begin to be loosened safely.
I feel a little weird trying to contribute to this conversation, as a non man. But as an autistic enby, I've found myself resonating a lot with the spiritual and social void described by the current 'man' conversation. I'm really glad we're starting to (I hope) move beyond 'men are trash' and that men are trying to re-define masculinity in a healthier way, and if I'm being honest I'm hoping to steal some of those ideas once they get articulated.
>[Non-man]Detected
>Opinion Dismissed
I will watch the first vid first, but thank you for addressing the "embracing the feminity" thing. I was a woman for 24 years. I have been in therapy for more than four years. I don't need to do that. Finally being able to see myself in the mirror and finally being able to accept myself as a man and then seeing all this embrace feminine stuff is extremely frustrating. Especially the whole "men have it easy" thing. Like ok ... I a Black trans man have it easy... Sure... it's like denying my whole reality. Or other trans people blaming me for being dysphoric and not passing all the time as if I can control that.
This is such an important and heartwarming message, as somebody who was tempted by Manosphere stuff when I was a teenager. I wish more people would see this and take it to heart. But sadly that's not the way society's going - toxic masculinity is getting worse
Thank you so much for what you do. I'm in the process of working through my own struggles with masculinity; growing up I had really negative male role models, and came to the perception that 'being a man means being violent and bad'. I hated myself for being one of these horrible creatures. I was repulsed by men and by myself and this informed all interactions. Into adulthood I latched onto feminism, but for the wrong reasons - it became (tho I wasn't aware at the time of this) a tool of self-flagellation rather than liberation, an opportunity to compound the self loathing that I'd carried all my life. I thought 'anger=bad' so I repressed all feelings of anger - turns out when you do that it leads to behaviour that's just as harmful to others as the ones you've been trying to avoid.
Anyways, long story short your videos are helping me a lot in working through this stuff, and I wanna thank you from the bottom of my heart dude ❤
Thank you so much for telling me about this. What you've brought up about self-flagellation and repression of anger is such a huge part of how men are hurt by societal attitudes and teachings. I'm really glad to hear these videos have helped you begin processing those things, 'cause you deserve happiness and a full spectrum of emotion without guilt for having it.
I appreciate the way you approach this topic. Taking down the cult leaders and grifters of the manosphere may be justified mockery but there's no denying it also fans the flames and fortifies the antagonistic framing.
Throughout my life I have struggled with living up to an acceptable standard of masculinity. Sports and manual labour didn't come easy to me, I became very ashamed of my body starting in puberty and if I wasn't bullied for any of that it was because I learned to become invisible. Instead of acting up, raging at everyone who makes me feel worthless I directed the aggression inward. Being worthless is now pretty much my identity. In a way I "took the black pill" before that became a concept... Minus the abhorrent hatred.
For a while I thought that maybe the discomfort I felt could be gender dysphoria but now I don't think that is true. I had the wrong role models. What I perceived as aspiritional doomed me to fail, not because I have no strengths but because I have different ones that weren't valued from an early age and that I still cannot value in myself now. "Toxic masculinity" does describe well why I feel this way but even somewhat knowing what it means there is an accusatory sting to it.
Anyway. I'm looking forward to Mr. Fox's exploration of positive masculinity. If you read this, thank you!
When you mention wondering if you were experiencing gender dysphoria, did you mean that as in "I thought I didn't feel comfortable with the conformity and expectations of masculinity" or did you mean it as "as a male, I think I didn't feel masculine enough to be seen as a male or 'man enough'." Cis people definitely do experience gender dysphoria; it's not solely a trans experience, and it's surprising to me how many people don't recognize it for being that. Just curious which way you were feeling when you thought about it.
@@CattyAttie There were a few things. Some of them a bit silly, others maybe not.
I used to be very uncomfortable with „male“ characteristics such as having body hair or my changing voice. Considering I‘m now more okay with that I think that was the usual puberty stress combined with depression.
Then there are more stupid reasons like preferring to play as a female character in video games… Considering that tough men were intimidating to me it‘s not really surprising that a stereotypically male power fantasy didn’t work as escapism.
For a while, when I first heard being transgender was a thing I considered it would explain why I was so miserable as a guy… Apart from being afraid to tell anyone, psychologists included, my aforementioned tendency to blend with the crowd when possible prohibited me from ever experimenting with gender expression.
I’m just scared of „real men“. And by extension, scared of myself. It’s good to write about it for once because despite having had quite a few therapies I only ever hinted at this topic. To be honest, it might be dysphoria or anything else. I‘m a mess of shame, self hatred, addiction… My identity is whatever is the closest approximation to „normal“ that I can muster when I’m in company.
What you're describing is where the book "The myth of male power" that I read 20 years ago helped me understand (As you mentioned) that the patriarchy hurts everyone. Warren Farrell is one reason I'm such a strong feminist.
I wear pretty dresses AND love power tools. Men are looked at funny if they do both.
I think it's shocking that Warren Farrel has allowed himself to be co-opted by the manosphere/misogynists.
It is shocking, and incredibly sad.
@Brett M I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.
I'm so moved by this. Thank you! ❤
This is fascinating, I watched Shia LaBeoufs Real Ones interview the other day and it hit me hard... he's done alot of bad stuff in his life a lot of it unforgivable, but I was close to tears at the end of it. He basically talks about the very thing you are talking about men looking out for each other.. and I'm not saying he should be forgiven, but I do think he has a lot to say that we can learn from.. its not easy to admit your fault honestly most people never get that insite... I think Shia has to a degree, so thats the first coincidence.
The second coincidence is I tried to tell my "normal" friends about the interview in real life and on line and I was basically shut down or ignored, and that hurt, it made me angry, because even though I have not done anything near as heinous as LaBeouf I do relate to his anger and isolation and need to succeed so it felt as though they were dismissing my issues and problems and people "on the inside" do this everyday, because although everyone wants to protect those on the fringes in theory, in actuality they have no real reference to know who those people are or how to actually help them... but you articulated that really well in this video.
Anyway.. don't give up, this is good work
That is a stunning blue shirt you’re wearing and it looks incredible on you! It really helps your eyes pop and looks great against your skin tone! You look so regal in it!
I don't know if I feel like that because iam a man or because I got bullied as a kid for my disability.
But I feel like a soldier in Peace time. I went through all the training, steeled myself, learned to ignore my pain and now... Now no enemy, no dangerous animal, no nothing. Fighting is all that I know. And it would be easy to get angry at the Peace Activists and the politicians that refuse to give me back my purpose. And in some way those people that say my fighting skills give me the right to reign and to just take what I need are tempting. After all, why did this society raise me like this? To then demand the opposite of me? That would be ridiculous. But it's not that easy and I know that. Cause the people in charge did this, not the peace activist and or anybody else. So now iam just lonely, sitting in my tower and waiting for a new purpose. Or suddenly find a way to become an incredible bodyguard cause that's a way to get someone to take you home. But the standarts are so fuckin high and I learned time and time again that my disability and the way it prevents me from certain things is a no go for a lot of people that need bodyguards. So I just keep waiting.
Okay iam done. That's the closest I can describe it. And no worries I have a therapist. But Iam done dating. That's just horrible without a job in a capitalist society. Or how my mum said:"as long as you can't feed a family you will stay alone my son!"
That's an awful thing to tell someone, and a pretty solid example of why we need to embrace all the ways to be a man and the different roles that can go along with manhood. Some men are protectors and providers, some aren't. Some are supporters, some are listeners, some are caregivers, and all of these are not only good, but necessary for a healthy society.
@@FinntasticMrFox it's not the worse I heard. That goes to the nurse that got me fired from nursery school because "men dont have it in their blood to care for children". Because it's such a wild idea to give something back after I spend my first 3 years of life in a hospital. I don't see a big difference between protecting and caring and I always wanted to care for kids and protect them from what I went through. But that's not allowed.
@@Dloin I am so sorry that happened to you, because you deserve to pursue what fulfills your heart, and what a powerful way to turn pain into something that heals.
Thank you for sharing your perspective and your experience here.
When i think of the kind of men i respect and love i think of my dad. He was kind, great at hugs, he was quiet but when he spoke everyone listened to what he had to say, he was there for his kids who depended on him, he had terrible dad homour (no it was great, he would get this big i smile when he had a bad pun coming on), he had an innate sense of what was right and wrong and would do what he could to set things right, he was curious about the world and the people in it, he was a feminist, a survivor of marital abuse from a previous marriage, he nearly became homeless several times in his life, he wasntgreat at giving comforting words when you were sad but he would listen and hug you through your pain, and up until his death he wanted to help mum around the house with cooking, cleaning and fixing broken stuff (despite being in severe chronic pain).
A lot of you would probably call my dad a beta cuck soyboy but yknow what? I dont care. I dont care if you think less of him and his struggles and that he shouldve been like this or that. He tried his best and im happy to have had him in my life.
Your Dad sounds like he was a very special human. How lovely that he was such a wonderful example of empathy and kindness. I think deep down that is how we all want to be remembered.
Your dad sounds like a great role model.
The Good Men Project is a really good online resource that teases all this stuff out really beautifully. They have some awesome and nuanced articles about this subject. It’s generally a community of men who realized that men do a lot of harm in the world and need to change themselves. They support each other and have some really insightful viewpoints.
Fabulous resource! I love The Good Men Project.
>Le Good [GØY] Project
Came here for the tom hiddleston vibes, stayed for the gentle discussion of male pain
Thank you for this.
As for the CTA in the closing, I agree that taking the approach of talking about the systems and structures that got an individual to where they are is likely far more productive. It helps to diminish the defensive response of speaking to an individual about the cause of their pain.
I can think of the most clear reason why it will fail - all those men exist on putting down their own audience, and those men who aren't like them. Setting unrealistic standards for men. Making men believe their whole existence is fighting against each other. Etc.
Hey Finn, thank you for putting into words a feeling I’ve had for a long time but have not been able to eloquently express
Thank you for making this video. I've genuinely been wondering if there is anything good about masculinity. I'm hoping this discussion leads to useful answers.
There is a lot good to masculinity, just as there is a lot good to femininity. The problem is when people are so accustomed to toxic masculinity that they equate the two. They are NOT the same thing.
If you are a masculine person, you don’t have to go looking for ways to “be masculine”, everything you do will have a stream of masculinity running through it.
I guess I think as masculinity as a subtle energy that for me feels very calming and grounded. Feeling connected to nature is something I really enjoy (and I know lots of guys like to hike) but I don’t classify this (or anything) as a “masculine interest”, bc a lot of women and humans love nature. I just think that if u r a masculine person, everything has a masculine and feminine side to it and you can just go with the one that feels right for you.
That’s how I see it. Toxic masculinity isn’t masculinity, it’s a perversion of masculinity.
Looking forward to the positive masculinity archetypes! Good video as always, Finn. You clearly think alot about these kinds of issues and even more before publishing a video. Please don't carry the weight of the whole world on your shoulders though. It's too much for any single person. Empaths have a tendency to wear themselves out. :)
I feel the need to say something fancy and smart here about the content of the video but my English just won't allow it. I just hope the message will get to the people that need to hear it. Men, as I see it, have an additional hurdle to overcome when it comes to personal change- strength is often conflated with stubborn tenacity, never admitting you're wrong until the problem just resolves itself. Admitting you're wrong is like admitting defeat. Women, on the other hand, are often conditioned to be a lot more unsure and critical of themselves (which comes with it's own problems) and thus are more likely to consider personal shortcomings.
I do think you also shared a valuable message for everyone who's not a man. It's not really our job to do the work and try and fix this mess (like I've been compelled to many times). Change has to come from within, not from the outside. Anything else is just pure frustration for any of the parties involved.
On a different note I have a suggestion if you'll indulge me: You might want to keep your preamble short. The target demographic you're trying to reach here especially isn't particularly known for their patience. I have the impression that you really want to keep everything you say balanced and nuanced and I commend you for that. It's just that the people you're trying to reach are probably not used to this. I don't want to be overly critical, it's just something I noticed.
You're not being overly critical! You're right, and that was definitely a problem with this video--I got the same feedback from a fellow content creator after seeking advice but was so exhausted trying to get all my thoughts out and get the video done, I posted it anyway. In hindsight, I should have addressed the fellas first and then had the "owning my mistakes" part second.
@@FinntasticMrFox I appreciate that you posted it without things being perfect, and are exemplifying what it means to have something be successful and good enough while having room for future improvement
I think a helpful resource for men that I've seen having helped the men I know are gratitude journaling (helps with articulating things that bring you joy in the simplest terms), children's shows that target an "emotional problem of the week" (helps develop critical thinking relating to interpersonal issues), indulging certain childhood dreams (i.e. getting that big lego set, going to Disney World, etc.), and meditation/general journaling (helps with confronting intrusive thoughts and emotions aside from anger). I know you have to do what works for you, and some of these things may seem silly or over-the-top, but trying something and deciding it doesn't work for you is okay too. Emotional work on yourself takes a lot of time and can hurt. But it's really worth it to come out on the other side and see how well you've taken care of yourself.
I love this video so, so much. I have been thinking about this a lot. Especially after having read The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love by bell hooks. I highly suggest that men who watch you read this book and maybe start a bookclub with one another to hold space for each other to really discuss it. I do not think men really understand the harm that they experience from the patriarchy themselves. Obviously, women and non-women feel the brunt of patriarchal structures but men who do not fit the mold of what a man is supposed to be (according to the patriarchy) suffer and then men who try to keep up with appearances suffer. I hope more men listen to you. I want men to realize that they also have been wronged by what the patriarchy promises and it has stolen things from them as well.
Hopefully this video helps men to realize it. Thank you for taking the time to say this with so much sincerity and care.
I’m reading it right now, and I couldn’t agree more. 💙
I think the anger online comes from years of media dominance where concepts like 'men are shit' are widely accepted. I personally filter out women who say this on a regular basis but I can see that most men don't have many women to choose from. I was raised primarily by women so I have a level of understanding that allows me to discuss the things I want to which helps me find more compatible people. I agree with you that our society's issue is basically a vicious cycle within the dating culture.
Yup. It's one of those "I get where you're coming from, but we're all feeding into this" problems. Women expression their frustration is completely understandable, but I keep thinking about these boys who hear "men are shit" or "men are trash"--like what is that telling them about the people they're growing up to be?
@@FinntasticMrFox Yea I can imagine a plethora of ideas. Growing up I was critical of everything. I did see the shitty things people did to each other. So I just tried not to be an asshole 😅 I heard this allot in my family and at some point I realized that they will never stop saying it no matter how nice the next guy was. I think this is something allot of guys realize. This is probably why red pill rhetoric says to go for younger women.
@@admchin that's an incredibly generous read of why misogynists prefer young women and girls. It's not just a "red pill" problem, look at Leo DiCaprio. This is a pretty classic and standard way for straight men to have even more power in their relationships than what patriarchy already gives them in age-matched relationships. We would do well to ask WHY men feel like they need that much power over women to get their needs met, but there's always a risk with this kind of conversation that men will be all too eager to start blaming feminism and anti-feminist backlash for all the problems of patriarchy.
@@laurelgardner I was talking more to the point of where the current day rhetoric for rp is coming from. Basically they're saying to not go for women with excessive amounts of baggage. It's similar to the concept that you shouldn't date emotionally underdeveloped or noncommittal men.
@@laurelgardner On the topic of Leo, I don't follow gossip or anything but there is one way of looking at it that seems pretty reasonable. I've heard that he specifically does not want to get married. So by not dating women above the age of 25, he is essentially not wasting their time when they will likely want to settle down. But unless I hear him say this, I won't just assume it to be true but it is an interesting angle.
This is an important point when it comes to advocacy in any respect. If you criticize something, *you have to provide an alternative if you want your point to mean anything.* Is it oppressed people's responsibility to educate and fix oppressor's minds? No, of course not. But don't be surprised that we don't get better when no one is helping us learn how.
I don't think any real thinking woman doesn't feel deep sadness for males who have been raised in that narrow, patriarchal mode of [male] or wish that the men who feel incapable of feeling, could learn to trust and feel. But we're scared. There's no easy way to say this, but men harm women-not all and not every, but male anger is scary, especially the sort of organised anger that's rising. I agree with you that this needs to be spoken about, that the treatment of little boys needs to be reviewed, changed. Boys are humans too and need to be loved... the cycle needs to be broken, but you're right, it DOES need to come from men in the end, and I hope it does.
I think this is a super important and empathetic point. It’s helped me think a bit differently
Dude I love this video. I'm a new subscriber and just 5 minutes in You hooked. We need to have this conversation and I'm glad that you're one of the people who are bringing up this issue
"Yea, we fuckin do, bud". Omg I laughed so hard. So true. Loved the video. Great job putting words to some of my feelings too. Describing that lost feeling of "but was IS masculinity?" is something I'm going to go share and discuss with my partner now. I completely forgot about that point. I think the personal journey is all we have while under this patriarchy.
Now I need to go learn how to teach positive masculinity or ideas about it... do you think "-manosphere" is set to work?.... yeesh.
>“[What's a Man?]”
>“[But a miseraßle little pile of secrets]”
You are doing great work. Thank you and keep it up. We all deserve to be free from these constructs, including men!
"If masculinity is defined by strength, then let's use it to lift eachother up."
Your approach to these difficult topics is always inspiring. I feel like I learn a lot from your example 🥲
I think personally, it helped that my parents got me a therapist when I was a kid. It was for my ADHD meds, but still. However, your parents and (possibly) therapist can only do so much to counter the tidal wave of patriarchy, and I still feels like I caught some of that wave. I'm not bitter and violent like some men, but I still feel trouble articulating my feelings. It's also tough because I don't know how much of that is social conditioning and how much is ADHD symptoms, but I know that just from personal experience, my parents have been the only people willing to help me through this stuff. And it makes me so sad that many men don't even have that; they're just left out to dry, and then lambasted for acting a certain way when they never even got the opportunity to learn otherwise. I think it's important to talk about sociology and systems and societies, but I think having a certain amount of sympathy for those with different experiences can go a long way. Not asking anyone to do emotional labor for men, that's not what I'm saying. Only that it may be more productive to try and understand people if you're going to criticize them.
"it may be more productive to try and understand people if you're going to criticize them." YES. Love that.
>41%
Men are awesome. No seriously men are epic! We don't have to be in relationships with women to be amazing. We simply are. The same can be said about women. Women are incredible too.
Whilst I agree with a lot of what Men's Rights Activists say about the uneven treatment of men in family courts, I don't think there is any need to trash women in the process. Women are incredible too. Now if feminists and Men's Rights Activists could listen to each other and work together, that would be wonderful. Women's issues and men's issues are complex and together we can work it out!
MensLib is a really great alternative to the MRA movement as the latter has, very sadly, been co-opted by a lot of misogynists. We absolutely need a movement for the rights of men, and it's harmful to everyone that the very term "men's rights" has been polluted. I wonder if a new term is better, or if reclaiming that one is important?
@@FinntasticMrFox MensLib. I shall check it out. Is it the same Mens Right Concerns addressed but without the woman and feminism bashing?
I don't think men are epic but that's probably because I have been raped, hit, dehumanized, sexualized, physically and emotionally abused by men, including men who are leftists. I am genuinely terrified of men and I have good reason to be.
@@The482075 It is indeed. Help for men without the misogyny and blaming.
This needs millions of view. So important
My version of masculinity includes me in the kitchen in an apron baking fruit pies from scratch. Who wouldn't love to unpack and discard toxic traits over pie and ice cream?
S0000000¥ ẞ00000¥ LMAO
@@AbuBased731 soy, beta, etc. are completely fabricated things. What are you trying to accomplish by replying to many people in the comments section?
@@karl_margs
>Vaush Fan dete¢ted
>Opinion Reje¢ted
@@AbuBased731 why are you so pressed, sweaty?
Always found Toxic Masculinity as a term a bit misleading and unhelpful, because it is too easy for people to misrepresent as being against all masculinity.
Always felt a better term would be “bullying culture on men”
I agree, we need to find a term that doesn’t put the men we want to convince on the defensive
I just call it "being 14 forever"
I think "male chauvinism" was actually pretty good and worth bringing back. It pretty nearly answers the question, "when does masculinity become a problem?" "when it thinks it's inherently better than femininity."
@@laurelgardner Trouble with calling male chauvinism again is it doesn’t really highlight that men are victims of this
@@Africa893 well idea of what toxic masculinity is, is very shaped by my experience of an all male school. However the trouble with calling it being 14 forever, is that makes it sound like matter of personal immaturity and ignores systems
This and fd signifiers new Manosphere video should be companion pieces
We desperately need videos like this to reach a wider audience. I needed this, my family needs this, so many people need to start listening to this conversation.
im a trans woman and i really understand what you mean. years of being told to "cowboy up" by my mother and that i should man up by my father lead me to alt right propaganda for a while and i did manage to drag myself out because i actually questioned my feelings and realized who i was. im sad that many men dont realize that they have a problem and are making worse by dragging other men in but im glad that i got out and realized i wasnt a soyboy im a soygirl
Go41%Maxxing
Thank you for helping me understand. I've likely laughed and closed the door in the past. I appreciate you helping me articulate why that wasn't useful.
I don't always have the ability to help, but I can prevent myself from adding hurt.
I’ve seen some other channels cover the topic of that men are lonely article and let me tell you do not read the comments unless you want to see a lot of really toxic ones about men being trash and how men should just get therapy and fix themselves. Yet there’s not really much acknowledgement of the fact that the way boys are raised is inherently traumatic, and that privilege and power are not the same thing as being loved or valued as an individual person. When I think about all the guys in my life I can recognize how much they hide parts of themselves because masculinity in our culture is a prison box of rules for a man to live in to be acceptable to not only other men but cis women as well. I know smart guys who act dumb. Sensitive guys who pretend to be tough. Because they have to. Transitioning has been wild in part because the more I unpack manhood and think about it, the more I realize that men are just not valued in a lot of ways outside of what they can physically provide. They are considered to be somewhat disposable by society and their feelings are dismissed and belittled largely by everyone men and women alike. Just think about how even on the left or liberals or whatever you want to use as a label mocks a man on the other side who they disagree with? It’s open season on mocking their appearance, their perceived lack of sexual prowess, weakness etc. I’m not trying to go all manosphere here because at the end of the day I was trying to be a woman a lot longer than I was a man and I understand on a personal level what women go through. But there’s some problems too with how men are treated and we need the intersection of race/class/gender/sexuality to be nuanced to actually fix any of this shit. No one can just fix themselves alone.
I think the last part of your comment is specially interesting. No one can fix it alone. That is true. There has to be societal change as well as personal change.
But at the same time one cannot advocate for societal change if society doesn't know about these struggles. Which is why I think that videos like these are so important.
Not only for men, but for women such as myself that watch them to better understand the other side.