The way you worded the DU rounds about cancer and heavy metals seems a bit shallow. Easy to misunderstand. Yes no one is denying that breathing heavy metals is bad… but. It wasnt the tankers firing them that had this damage done to them. It was infantry or enemy crews. The myth is that DU is radioactive, therefore shooting the round gives all tank crews get cancer.
Another widely circulated myth is that HEAT warheads work by melting the Copper lining and making it ''melt'' through the armour. In reality the pressure from the explosive charge changes the Copper lining into a Superplastic, which is when the pressure causes the otherwise Solid Copper to act more like a stream of fluid, even though it is way below it's melting point and still a Solid. This is important because actual molten metal would just splatter over the armour and not achieve much, but a Superplastic will bore through the armour, since it retains it's Solid form Density.
Not entirely accurate. The copper liner is well above its melting point but the pressure keeps it super critical. But that isn't the mechanism that makes shaped charge work, the high explosive accelerates the liner to a very high velocity, which gives this mass tremendous kinetic energy. Even if it were vapor, it would still carry this energy into the target.
@@obsidianjane4413 To be even more accurate ; it's the focalization of the annular shock wave created by the explosive that give that kinetic energy to the metallic liner (not always copper tho) Shaped charge are the most effective transfer of chemical to kinetic energy ! It's all about the accuracy of the focalization of that shock wave And as anyone know.. increasing pressure mean increase of temperature (well beyond melting point of copper) but puts it in a state of superplasticity which it can hold some mechanical characteristics such as heat conduction.. Slicing create heat and heat can help slicing by reducing mechanical properties, in a HEAT, you got both in a very confined point ! Very efficient way to slice ! (more like punching but it's slicing more than punching away)
I would'nt say it's solid , it's still flexible . Shell rotation lowers the penetration of HEAT , cause the centrifugal force pulls this "Superplastic" or copper beam to the outside . This is why only at weapons like a Panzerfaust that does'nt rotate the shell , they got massiv penetration power . Panzerfaust 150 (range 150m) , 100mm diameter and up to 300mm RHA pen . As fin stabilization comes up with tank rounds , HEAT-FS was the new meta .
The tank crewman was most likely inferring that a combination of pressure, speed, and a little bit of heat vaporizes soft targets (i.e. humans or animals). The company that made the animation and hosted the interview most certainly misinterpreted it, and thought the hot spall created causes this "vaporization," which is extremely misleading.
Eh, I often mark shit like that in the "producer said do it again but with more explosions" category, especially on later history channel funded projects. Well, either that or the round teleports aliens into the tank and the crew are death rayed!!! /sarcasm
Another good one : HEAT shells " melt " through the armor. The metal jet is " molten ". Its not. It's super plastic, IE behaving like liquid but is in fact solid and the penetration of the jet is still kinetic in nature, it doesnt use high temperatures.
increase of pressure do increase heat, it's physics ! Temp is what slice the armor, it's the pressure, but the resulting heat of that pressure increase helps..
It’s the Monroe effect. The copper “jet” takes the path of least resistance, which is through the armor, as it doesn’t have the any energy to fight against the pressure from the HE filler. I should also expand that this essentially works the same as a sabot round, but rather then the kinetic penetrator traveling at supersonic speeds from the muzzle of the tank, it travels at super sonic speeds for that short distance once the fuze arms. This is why a lot of HEAT rounds have a specific stand-off distance, to give the penetrator time to from properly.
Emm... Tanker in general are master at operating their equipment, but they tend to not know what's going on, but it is not entirely their fault. Mind you, for the longest time, US army official training material heat shape charge melt throught armor, or at least that's how they are being explained to. It is simple, grunts job are killing bad guys at the other side. They only have to know AP is for punchy punchy at enemy tank and this thing goes boom is for everything else. They don't need to know unnecessary details.
@@jintsuubest9331 Yep, most soldiers are practically kids after all. Outside of pilots, a high level of technical understanding is not exactly necessary, just practical experience.
I like just remind everyone that according to Gaijin a 1940s german tank crew could take french 47mm to the chest and just turn yellow. Despite historical records showing it was very effective against its target at the time.
I always find it funny when people hear uranium they think radioactive, which is fair to people who don’t know about it. Depleted uranium comes from the nuclear fuel enrichment process, and in the process of depletion, they are separating the U235 from U238. The U235 goes into the fuel because it’s more fissile, and the U238 is the depleted uranium. For reference, brand new unirradiated Nuclear fuel is safe to touch, so not super radioactive. Depleted uranium is less radioactive than brand new fuel.
Safe to touch because the alpha can't penetrate your skin. Very not safe to ingest because it can penetrate cell membranes and cause damage to DNA and create cancers. Besides its basic heavy metal toxicity. There's nothing at all funny about it.
It's still radioactive. Less radioactive doesn't mean not radioactive. It's also highly toxic and the dust created from the firing and impact of DU rounds can very easily enter the human body.
I can speak from experience about inhaling the air around heavy metal. I was exposed to the air at an Iron Maiden concert and I've never been quite the same since.
While I'm sure the increased post-penetration performance is useful, I'm fairly sure the main reason for the adoption of depleted uranium is the increased penetration.
It's twofold: 1) It's very good at dealing with armor composites. 2) It's cheap, plentiful and readily available as a byproduct of enrichment. It's two birds with one stone.
Spookston, just wanted to say you’re the best. I don’t know a lot about military technology or tanks, but I have an account on NationStates that I love writing military stuff for. Your videos have given me a lot of help designing my nation’s main battle tank! I really appreciate your content.
Another misconception I've seen, specifically relating to the arcadey nature of War Thunder, is that APHE is incapable of over pressure. Any round with an explosive filler is capable of over pressure, though usually only HE, HEAT, and HESH have enough to do it. Very high quantities of explosive filler on the larger German and Soviet guns can sometimes trigger a crew wipe.
4:47 lol every time you say "anyway" it sounds like you're rolling your eyes and you're just glad that the video is over and you can go back to doing whatever
Im glad you mentioned it, the radioactivity of DU is a total non-issue. People scared to death of tank husks because of radioactivity forget that those rounds were stored in an Abrams all at once, with the high energy Gamma completely ignoring things like even the armored ammo locker door. If it was as dangerous as they act, the crew of every Abrams would be dead in a few hours after entering the tank. But it's absolutely right too, that Uranium is poisonous, and that's actually dangerous. Basically like lead poisoning, so still stay out of tank husks so you dont breathe that crap in.
And too the idea that DU was increasing the rate of cancer in children in the Middle-East is one of the most boneheaded things Ive ever heard. Firstly the only time we truly know radioactivity actually causes cancer is in the cases where you receive life-threatening doses of radiation, like nearly dying from Iodine-131 and later getting leukemia or thyroid cancer. Secondly there's not nearly enough being spread over the countries to actually increase background radiation to dangerous levels. You might as well say tank exhaust is giving kids carbon monoxide poisoning, or the lead from bullets is giving them lead poisoning, or the smell of military portapotties are giving middle-eastern kids nausea. So why are the statistics saying that? Probably because we didn't properly measure and diagnose cancer in the Middle-East before. So of course it looks like the rates are going up.
Self sharpening DU might also be a myth, the only research i've found on the topic simply describes DU as being less ductile. Which means it forms a smaller mushroom head at the tip when penetrating and thus acts like a smaller diameter penetrator than an equal diameter of WHA.
For APHE, do you know how much of an influence is the shell's explosive type and amount in play? Surely a KV2 APHE would do more damage than if it were just a solid AP slug of metal? Also, wouldn't the explosion cause massive pressure inside of the crew compartment?
KV2 aphe are not really aphe but a type of anti-concrete round, more of a semi armor piercing HE, but im pretty sure it will explode inside a tank like wt because mmmmh fucking 5kg of tnt
Yes, an APHE round with a huge quantity of explosive filler would definitely cause overpressure effects inside the tank. KV-2 APHE has about 5kg of TNT, which is way more than enough to reliably kill everyone inside. When Spookston was talking about APHE, he mainly meant that rounds such as the American M61 or Soviet BR-350A, which usually oneshot nearly any tank from the side in War Thunder, would have very similar damage to solid shot fired from the same guns.
APHE is made to "crack" armor, see it like a good "stunning" round while AP is made to "tear" armor Don't forget that "tank kill" IRL isnt that spectacular explosion you see in WT ! Sometimes a good crack in the armor without penetration can disable a tank while a round passing through won't do much.. Old APHE were originally made as "anti-fortification" rounds or AA rounds to spread shrapnel, the effect researched in both cases is concussion rather than penetration
what about the myth that tank ammo explodes when shot, instead of simply vanishing onto the aether? or the polar opposite, the shell changes colour slightly, and it doesnt like this very much, so it has a temper tantrum and murders the crew members?
The US Army Officer talking is an actual personal friend and is a big name in the US Armor world when it comes to tanks. When SABOT rounds strike yes, they have thr ability to liquefy tissue cause what happens is the crew is stucked out the hole that the SABOT round creates upon exiting the target. Yes, not all of the liquefied matter is taken out, hence leaving behind different tissue of a human body that is in semi liquid forum, which yes can quite litterly hosed out of a tank.
I saw a comments section arguing about if a high calibre hesh shell would be sufficiently broken up by cage armour to not critically damage a lightly armoured tank. People were claiming the the sheer mass and explosive force or a shell like the one carried by the FV4005 would make it relatively unaffected by cages on tanks. I feel like this is untrue but could be something to look into for a part 2. nice video.
Spookston, my father was a Ranger operating in both Bosnia and the Gulf War. On a few occasions he has talked to me about inspecting knocked out T-72s and other enemy armor. The crews on occasion were indeed “melted.” To such an extent that the only remains he could find in fighting compartment were some knuckles of the spine.
Well, cremated would probably be the better term. Nothing really special though. I mean a tank is nothing else than a metall box you're sitting in with a lot of burny stuff all around you. When the ammo after a hit deflagrades it's like you're in a oven of a crematorium. Appart from some bones, nothing will be left.
It is also a myth that DU is self sharpening. It is just not mushrooming as much as Tungsten and therefore leaving a smaller hole while penetrating deeper. I'm early tests and do it's structure the scientists believed that it was due to layers peeling of but that has been proven to be incorrect many years later. However this myth is still around and widely spread among literature.
Honestly, probably not. Spook got a lot of flak for many fictional vehicles because he didnt criticize the vehicle using the rules of the fictional universe. His talk about Planetside 2 vehicles exemplify that. His best forte is real vehicles.
@@2Potates sounds harsh, but then you should unsub. His best content before was real vehicles, and his best content now is real vehicles. He does what he does really well.
@@KP3droflxp Uranium being "self-sharpening" (it isn't, other people in the comments go into more detail on what it actually does when it hits a target, but it isn't "self-sharpening") APHE being useless (it wasn't, he's relying on old British firing tests using 50mm or smaller guns, further demonstrated by the fact that British battleship shells DO have explosive filler and it IS more effective, and you would think that the forces in play there would be much greater than those involved with 75mm APHE shell; basically said firing tests were not scaled up to to larger calibers and were meant to justify the British continuing to use solid AP, which they ended up doing in the early war). Sure, the shrapnel may or may not end up forming a cone similar to an AP shell, but the real damage is done by the overpressure of the HE element, not the shrapnel, in an APHE.
Actually DU- APDSFS rod penetrator rounds are capped too, and not sharp/pointy but rather blunt, like most AP tank ammo. We had one fall about 6-8 feet point first onto concrete, and the tip bent. Most diagrams show a pointy tip, but on occasion you can find an accurate diagram , which shows the wind-screen/cap.
Love you spookston, but I wouldn't really say the military doesn't know what we are talking about. I'm a loader for a m1a2 sep v3. U made some great points but not everyone will know the full potential of our ammunition for obvious reasons. Keep up the good work.
Right on you were pretty much on point with every thing. As a chemist I am often rolling my eyes after hearing about how radioactive DU is. It is radioactive but compared to other radioactive isotopes its pretty far down the list. It is VERY toxic how ever, most of the time you have to worry about heavy metal poisoning not radiation sickness. What really annoys me is when people act as if it can cause a nuclear explosion.
Great video, those myths are so prevalent. One I think you could have added is the HEAT myth that the shaped charge liquifies the copper liner before it's sent through the armour. From my reading on the subject, the shaped charge merely accelerates a smaller penetrator inside the HEAT round, adding energy to an already fast moving object, thus increasing the penetration. Liquid copper would have no effect on armour, at all, no matter how fast it's moving; it'd just solidify on the outside as steel requires a good 300°C-500°C more than copper to melt. This applies to tank HEAT shells, RPGs, etc.
I think the distinctions between molten and not molten are fairly academic at ballistic velocities. The copper is probably "molten" insofar as it behaves more like a liquid than a solid and is probably quite hot, but the actual mechanism of penetration is more to do with velocity and concentration of force. The jet of copper is very dense and moving extremely quickly, and is able to displace and deform the steel in it's path.
High enough pressure GAS could penetrate armor.... It's essentially a liquid but because it's under so much pressure it's density is such that it technically counts as a solid. - Despite flowing like a liquid and being extremely hot..
>APHE explodes as a cone Well, the thing is - it explodes. It doesn't need a sphere of shrapnel to take out the whole crew, explosion of 2-3 grenades under an armor is enough to take out if not the whole crew, then most of it.
For some reason the thumbnail made me think he was going to talk about atomic ammunition, and I think that would be hilarious in war thunder. Instead of spawning in a nuke, you get a tank with a nuclear round. It does remove the possibility of shooting down the aircraft, but I’m mostly saying this because I think it’s funny, not because it would be a good addition to the game.
Both the American DOD and the Soviet DOD equivalent(do not know the name) had developed projects for nuclear tank ammo. It wnet nowere, but could be added.
depleted uranium used to be used as stapler wieghts as it was cheaper and "safer" than lead. the safer turned out to be differently safe that actual safer. so the army used to shoot people with stapler weights because its far cheaper than tungsten. maybe I'm a little unconcerned about radioactivity as my state had lots of uranium ore laying everywhere but now worth picking up much less mining it. A radon map likely shows you where useless uranium lives in large total quantities but not worth mining.
I think the liquefaction story come from another story from tests on the Bradley IFV. How the story goes, is that they took a broadside shot at a Bradley that had a couple of goats or sheep inside, to test weapon effects. When the vehicle was checked after the APFSDS shot, there was a clean set of entry & exit holes, & a fan of viscera on the ground of the exit side. Supposedly, the high speed shockwave of the round passing through first liquefied the livestock, then created a vacuum effect on exit. This supposedly pulled the liquefied remains out of the Bradley & deposited it in a fan shape on the ground downrange. I first heard this in the '90s & have shared the story, myself. However, I have been unable to verify it's accuracy.
APHE performance varies greatly depending on factors such as type of fuse, type of explosive(even taking TNT equivalent the speed of the blast being different the effect can vary quite a lot), shell speed, fuse time etc. the worst APHE are about equal to an simple solid shot
One interesting thing I learned while researching tungsten is that the US military said the changed to tungsten rounds because they were less toxic but later it was discovered that they were just as toxic as the DU rounds. They also have the same self sharpening and pyrophoric aspects to them.
here in the UK, my father had some depleted uranium masonry drill bits, back in the 1980's. They had a health warning to wash hands, thoroughly, after handling, especially before eating.
The US also uses DU because it will can cause birth defects if contaminated water is drank or soil is used for farming. Helps reduce future combat capable generations.
a good one is Both Bore types cant use certian ammo types, HESH and HEAT respectively most famous, but reality is both can use them, it just requires the will to develop these ammo type for weapon in question. which is why the Ordanace L11 and L30 120mm guns ended up with no Heat ammo, But the L7 105mm gun did.
Also, service SABOT rounds (apdsfs-t) rounds are a DU core encased in tungsten, the DU is very heavy but relatively soft where tungsten is extremely hard and has a high melting temp...the tungsten can withstand penetration pressure and temp while the DU acts as the weight forcing it through...some targets with light armor or bad armor such as a T-54/55 don't posses enough armor to even breach the tungsten penetrator...basically a sledgehammer driving a thumbtack...the depleted uranium was not put in a sabot round to make it "nuclear" or "dirty", it was put in there to be a heavy core to act as a driving force for the tungsten penetrator because its one of the heaviest materials known to man.
the problem with DU is it "self sharpens" it atomizes and when it burns that can get into your lungs,the "it melts people" is from the middle east where people in a car get shot with a tank theres a guy that said two guys with a hose had to hose out the car
Honestly, the British AP/APHE tests are questionable, as Britain was the biggest user of non exploding AP shells, so they had a motive to downplay its difference to APHE. Even though real APHE fragments formed a cone, that cone would bounce around the vehicle with a relatively high kinetic energy, so I would not be much surprised if most of the damage (especially to the crew) was dealt from behind or from the sides.
The real problem with DU (and tungsten darts, for that matter) is their effect on the environment. Shells laying around tend to leach nastiness into the ground and the local water supply. This can be seen, for example, in Kuwait.
@@WackyIraqi777 of course, the obvious problem is it kills people and is frequently in the service of unjust causes. Some people don't realize that modern warfare can negatively impact the environment for years to come.
APCR, gets a lot better when the caliber gets bigger, I wish I knew a long time ago, also, join a squadron, I’ve gone 2 and a half years of not knowing I could’ve gotten squadron vehicles
One thing that should have been mentioned is that while APCR does have a higher ability to bounce, it doesn’t mean it won’t go though angled armor. It works just like apds just more primitive
People have tried basicallyu every metal available to use as a liner. Even gold an platinum among other heavy metals. The Russian 3BK21B shell uses depleted uranium as a liner, to combat the Abrams and Challenger composite armor
Actually, soft caps don't always help against slopes. Dejmian XYZ has a series of 3 simulations of various types of shell striking the Hetzer's 60@60° superstructure armour, 2 of which are 76mm M1 shells, and the uncapped M79 actually performs better than the M62 which is APBCB-HE, for multiple reasons, but one of them is the cap. The cap prevents the tip of the shell from breaking which allows it to be deflected and not bite into the steel, whereas the uncapped shell has the tip break and go up, but the rest of the shell actually pushes through. At least that's how I interpreted the video. Feel free to check for yourselves. They're very short.
Could you provide the data on the firing test between APHE and solid shot? Firing tests back in the day (and sometimes even now) were often fraught with poor methodology or failure to take into account certain variables, and that's not including the ones that were done to purposefully get a certain end result. For example, in the age of the ironclad Britain (funnily enough the same country you mention) did firing tastes against iron plate that supposedly showed it was proof against the weapons it was likely to face, with the plate stopping the rounds while staying intact. However, it was found in practice that this did not occur, and so they ran the tests again, but this time accounting for the affect ambient temperature might have on the plate (sailing through the North Sea, for example, which would lower the temperature in the iron and make it more brittle). It was found that while effective at warmer temperatures, when in colder climates the iron plate in question would actually shatter rather than stop the rounds. This is why it is EXTREMELY important to try and look at multiple firing tests and especially post-battle damage reports rather than relying on just one firing test, as that firing test might be absolutely useless for predicting outcomes in the field.
I think I saw this video before. They prefered APFSDS to take out suicide bomber cars, because the round would create shrapnels that killed anyone inside. Mabye it was also about collateral damage, since HE or HEAT would send lethal fragments flying around.
@@kimjanek646 I dont think you need to worry about which round you're using to prevent collateral damage if you're shooting a van filled with explosives...
Wasn't there once a claim that DU ammunition was in part responsible for the Gulf-War syndrome? That US personell were not instructed properly when it came to examining destroyed enemy tanks, which were struck by DU ammunition (from A-10 gatling guns or DU bombs and the likes) , thus exposing them to a heavy dose of heavy metals?
Sponsor: apexgamingpcs.com/products/spookston
Gg nice shot
gaming
why does your sponsor pc say it can run world of tanks at any res....
damn you ruined my favorite death animation from Red Alert 2 of infantry melting into green goo.
The way you worded the DU rounds about cancer and heavy metals seems a bit shallow. Easy to misunderstand.
Yes no one is denying that breathing heavy metals is bad… but. It wasnt the tankers firing them that had this damage done to them. It was infantry or enemy crews.
The myth is that DU is radioactive, therefore shooting the round gives all tank crews get cancer.
Spookston: "overpressure turns driver into a gummy bear"
TV producers: literally turn driver into a cartoon bear
Fun fact: I would prefer not to get hit by any of these tank shells
You're alone on that one, I can't wait to be penetrated by some nice tank shells/s
@@celtoucan4956 in which way
Coward
In most cases it's not that bad especially direct hint. You wont notice it. Much worse to bleed to death from random shrapnel...
Why not?
Another widely circulated myth is that HEAT warheads work by melting the Copper lining and making it ''melt'' through the armour.
In reality the pressure from the explosive charge changes the Copper lining into a Superplastic, which is when the pressure causes the otherwise Solid Copper to act more like a stream of fluid, even though it is way below it's melting point and still a Solid. This is important because actual molten metal would just splatter over the armour and not achieve much, but a Superplastic will bore through the armour, since it retains it's Solid form Density.
He went over that in a previous video
Not entirely accurate. The copper liner is well above its melting point but the pressure keeps it super critical. But that isn't the mechanism that makes shaped charge work, the high explosive accelerates the liner to a very high velocity, which gives this mass tremendous kinetic energy. Even if it were vapor, it would still carry this energy into the target.
@@obsidianjane4413 To be even more accurate ; it's the focalization of the annular shock wave created by the explosive that give that kinetic energy to the metallic liner (not always copper tho)
Shaped charge are the most effective transfer of chemical to kinetic energy ! It's all about the accuracy of the focalization of that shock wave
And as anyone know.. increasing pressure mean increase of temperature (well beyond melting point of copper) but puts it in a state of superplasticity which it can hold some mechanical characteristics such as heat conduction..
Slicing create heat and heat can help slicing by reducing mechanical properties, in a HEAT, you got both in a very confined point ! Very efficient way to slice ! (more like punching but it's slicing more than punching away)
@@Real_Claudy_Focan NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRD
Just kidding. Physics and mechanics like this just always fly straight over my head.
I would'nt say it's solid , it's still flexible . Shell rotation lowers the penetration of HEAT , cause the centrifugal force pulls this "Superplastic" or copper beam to the outside . This is why only at weapons like a Panzerfaust that does'nt rotate the shell , they got massiv penetration power . Panzerfaust 150 (range 150m) , 100mm diameter and up to 300mm RHA pen . As fin stabilization comes up with tank rounds , HEAT-FS was the new meta .
The tank crewman was most likely inferring that a combination of pressure, speed, and a little bit of heat vaporizes soft targets (i.e. humans or animals). The company that made the animation and hosted the interview most certainly misinterpreted it, and thought the hot spall created causes this "vaporization," which is extremely misleading.
mmmh yes maybe but even if there was 200bar of pressure and 3000 degres(celsus) a human body does not "evaporate", it woulnd be great to see but...
Eh, I often mark shit like that in the "producer said do it again but with more explosions" category, especially on later history channel funded projects. Well, either that or the round teleports aliens into the tank and the crew are death rayed!!! /sarcasm
Human doesn't vaporized, period.
@@jintsuubest9331 You can.. but you have to really stand near an atomic explosion "ground zero" :D
@@jintsuubest9331 Humans can vaporize. Go and ask the people that stood near the nagasaki and hiroshima nukes...Oh wait....
Another good one : HEAT shells " melt " through the armor. The metal jet is " molten ". Its not. It's super plastic, IE behaving like liquid but is in fact solid and the penetration of the jet is still kinetic in nature, it doesnt use high temperatures.
increase of pressure do increase heat, it's physics ! Temp is what slice the armor, it's the pressure, but the resulting heat of that pressure increase helps..
@@Real_Claudy_Focan You have no clue what you are talking about here. Neither about physics or tank shells.
@@Real_Claudy_Focan no lol
the pressure is so high that it basically does melt though
It’s the Monroe effect.
The copper “jet” takes the path of least resistance, which is through the armor, as it doesn’t have the any energy to fight against the pressure from the HE filler.
I should also expand that this essentially works the same as a sabot round, but rather then the kinetic penetrator traveling at supersonic speeds from the muzzle of the tank, it travels at super sonic speeds for that short distance once the fuze arms. This is why a lot of HEAT rounds have a specific stand-off distance, to give the penetrator time to from properly.
I'm glad you were fair to the tanker in the interview, The documentary film makers clearly were the ones who misinterpreted his meaning too literally
Emm... Tanker in general are master at operating their equipment, but they tend to not know what's going on, but it is not entirely their fault.
Mind you, for the longest time, US army official training material heat shape charge melt throught armor, or at least that's how they are being explained to.
It is simple, grunts job are killing bad guys at the other side. They only have to know AP is for punchy punchy at enemy tank and this thing goes boom is for everything else. They don't need to know unnecessary details.
@@jintsuubest9331 Yep, most soldiers are practically kids after all. Outside of pilots, a high level of technical understanding is not exactly necessary, just practical experience.
The only part I'd say the tanker messed up on is using sabot for a minivan lol
@@williewilson2250 ikr? machine guns are a thing but i guess murica so 120mm apfsds for the minivan
@@neuropathical at the very least heatfs
I like just remind everyone that according to Gaijin a 1940s german tank crew could take french 47mm to the chest and just turn yellow. Despite historical records showing it was very effective against its target at the time.
just taking a single 50. to the chest should be enough, let alone a 47mm
@@dlyonthescreen2657 Not in Gaijinland,where human tissue is equivalent to 11mm of armor steel.
nigel could take a 12.7mm in the head and only turn yellow
I remember when they introduced the t-44-100. Ivan could easily stop the 128mm with his teeth and swallow the round and i could kill 1 maximum 2 crew.
Yep, B1s never oneshotting
I always find it funny when people hear uranium they think radioactive, which is fair to people who don’t know about it. Depleted uranium comes from the nuclear fuel enrichment process, and in the process of depletion, they are separating the U235 from U238. The U235 goes into the fuel because it’s more fissile, and the U238 is the depleted uranium. For reference, brand new unirradiated Nuclear fuel is safe to touch, so not super radioactive. Depleted uranium is less radioactive than brand new fuel.
The main problem with DU is that is still chemically toxic due to being a heavy metal.
🤓
@@Cowboycomando54 Yes and they found out that tungsten ammo has similar penetration.
Safe to touch because the alpha can't penetrate your skin. Very not safe to ingest because it can penetrate cell membranes and cause damage to DNA and create cancers. Besides its basic heavy metal toxicity.
There's nothing at all funny about it.
It's still radioactive. Less radioactive doesn't mean not radioactive. It's also highly toxic and the dust created from the firing and impact of DU rounds can very easily enter the human body.
I can speak from experience about inhaling the air around heavy metal. I was exposed to the air at an Iron Maiden concert and I've never been quite the same since.
Depleted uranium is incredibly dense, almost as dense as most of the defence department
Nah, defense department are denser than neutron star.
Oof lol
While I'm sure the increased post-penetration performance is useful, I'm fairly sure the main reason for the adoption of depleted uranium is the increased penetration.
It's twofold:
1) It's very good at dealing with armor composites.
2) It's cheap, plentiful and readily available as a byproduct of enrichment.
It's two birds with one stone.
@@The_Crimson_Fucker and you dont need to worry about storing radioactive waste
@@lunatic_nebula9542 Radioactive waste isn't depleted uranium
@@heliogonzalezsanchez8227 dont care it is now
But we all know the main reason is cuz it's cheap
Myth: You can't take out the 'mechs with bombs
Fact: 'Mechs are invincible because no on can see them anymore.
Invisible*
@@revolverswitch Thats what I said.
@@madcat789 you said invincible
@@madcat789 'can't kill what doesn't exist' kind of thing?
3:14 Boss, you killed a child!
excellent work, thats why you're the best!
Spookston, just wanted to say you’re the best. I don’t know a lot about military technology or tanks, but I have an account on NationStates that I love writing military stuff for. Your videos have given me a lot of help designing my nation’s main battle tank! I really appreciate your content.
Another misconception I've seen, specifically relating to the arcadey nature of War Thunder, is that APHE is incapable of over pressure. Any round with an explosive filler is capable of over pressure, though usually only HE, HEAT, and HESH have enough to do it. Very high quantities of explosive filler on the larger German and Soviet guns can sometimes trigger a crew wipe.
A perfect example of this would be the KV2 APHE. 5kg of TNT surely will be enough to overpressure.
I see these people have never be shot by an IS-2
2:22 Understood, APHE creates a minature nuclear explosion. :)
Shoutout to spooks for having one of the least obnoxious ad reads I've heard in a while!
4:47 lol every time you say "anyway" it sounds like you're rolling your eyes and you're just glad that the video is over and you can go back to doing whatever
Im glad you mentioned it, the radioactivity of DU is a total non-issue. People scared to death of tank husks because of radioactivity forget that those rounds were stored in an Abrams all at once, with the high energy Gamma completely ignoring things like even the armored ammo locker door. If it was as dangerous as they act, the crew of every Abrams would be dead in a few hours after entering the tank. But it's absolutely right too, that Uranium is poisonous, and that's actually dangerous. Basically like lead poisoning, so still stay out of tank husks so you dont breathe that crap in.
And too the idea that DU was increasing the rate of cancer in children in the Middle-East is one of the most boneheaded things Ive ever heard. Firstly the only time we truly know radioactivity actually causes cancer is in the cases where you receive life-threatening doses of radiation, like nearly dying from Iodine-131 and later getting leukemia or thyroid cancer. Secondly there's not nearly enough being spread over the countries to actually increase background radiation to dangerous levels. You might as well say tank exhaust is giving kids carbon monoxide poisoning, or the lead from bullets is giving them lead poisoning, or the smell of military portapotties are giving middle-eastern kids nausea.
So why are the statistics saying that? Probably because we didn't properly measure and diagnose cancer in the Middle-East before. So of course it looks like the rates are going up.
Me: fires Uranium shell
My loader: don't you mean depleted Uranium.
You loaded depleted Uranium shell right?
The nuke I just loaded: Kaboom
It's my birthday spookston & I'm glad to see you uploaded on it!
Self sharpening DU might also be a myth, the only research i've found on the topic simply describes DU as being less ductile. Which means it forms a smaller mushroom head at the tip when penetrating and thus acts like a smaller diameter penetrator than an equal diameter of WHA.
adiabatic shear banding
Thanks for the free advice i will not breath heavy metal anymore!
For APHE, do you know how much of an influence is the shell's explosive type and amount in play? Surely a KV2 APHE would do more damage than if it were just a solid AP slug of metal? Also, wouldn't the explosion cause massive pressure inside of the crew compartment?
KV2 aphe are not really aphe but a type of anti-concrete round, more of a semi armor piercing HE, but im pretty sure it will explode inside a tank like wt because mmmmh fucking 5kg of tnt
Yes, an APHE round with a huge quantity of explosive filler would definitely cause overpressure effects inside the tank.
KV-2 APHE has about 5kg of TNT, which is way more than enough to reliably kill everyone inside.
When Spookston was talking about APHE, he mainly meant that rounds such as the American M61 or Soviet BR-350A, which usually oneshot nearly any tank from the side in War Thunder, would have very similar damage to solid shot fired from the same guns.
@@fireshredder24 yes I specifically talk about kv2 immense aphe thx
APHE is made to "crack" armor, see it like a good "stunning" round while AP is made to "tear" armor
Don't forget that "tank kill" IRL isnt that spectacular explosion you see in WT ! Sometimes a good crack in the armor without penetration can disable a tank while a round passing through won't do much..
Old APHE were originally made as "anti-fortification" rounds or AA rounds to spread shrapnel, the effect researched in both cases is concussion rather than penetration
@@Real_Claudy_Focan
Try again. AP in general are meant to get throught armor and do shit inside of armor.
Nice video. Kidney problems down the line would be the least of the Tank crews worry, when they have the OMG the tank is on fire moment.
what about the myth that tank ammo explodes when shot, instead of simply vanishing onto the aether? or the polar opposite, the shell changes colour slightly, and it doesnt like this very much, so it has a temper tantrum and murders the crew members?
3:15 as a die hard Metalhead,I can't agree with you about this one
The US Army Officer talking is an actual personal friend and is a big name in the US Armor world when it comes to tanks.
When SABOT rounds strike yes, they have thr ability to liquefy tissue cause what happens is the crew is stucked out the hole that the SABOT round creates upon exiting the target. Yes, not all of the liquefied matter is taken out, hence leaving behind different tissue of a human body that is in semi liquid forum, which yes can quite litterly hosed out of a tank.
I saw a comments section arguing about if a high calibre hesh shell would be sufficiently broken up by cage armour to not critically damage a lightly armoured tank. People were claiming the the sheer mass and explosive force or a shell like the one carried by the FV4005 would make it relatively unaffected by cages on tanks. I feel like this is untrue but could be something to look into for a part 2. nice video.
Spookston, my father was a Ranger operating in both Bosnia and the Gulf War. On a few occasions he has talked to me about inspecting knocked out T-72s and other enemy armor. The crews on occasion were indeed “melted.” To such an extent that the only remains he could find in fighting compartment were some knuckles of the spine.
Well, cremated would probably be the better term. Nothing really special though. I mean a tank is nothing else than a metall box you're sitting in with a lot of burny stuff all around you. When the ammo after a hit deflagrades it's like you're in a oven of a crematorium. Appart from some bones, nothing will be left.
@@shi01 that’s exactly right
Sorry spook but I cannot concentrste when you drop that bombass gameplay bro. You're a beast
It is also a myth that DU is self sharpening. It is just not mushrooming as much as Tungsten and therefore leaving a smaller hole while penetrating deeper. I'm early tests and do it's structure the scientists believed that it was due to layers peeling of but that has been proven to be incorrect many years later. However this myth is still around and widely spread among literature.
Any chance you'll make a new future tank technology video? Or more redesigns of fictional vehicles?
Honestly, probably not. Spook got a lot of flak for many fictional vehicles because he didnt criticize the vehicle using the rules of the fictional universe. His talk about Planetside 2 vehicles exemplify that. His best forte is real vehicles.
@@TheClone37 Yeah but real vehicles isn't why i subbed to this channel, i don't watch 90% of what he posts now.
@@2Potates sounds harsh, but then you should unsub. His best content before was real vehicles, and his best content now is real vehicles. He does what he does really well.
That moment when a video trying to bust myths itself spreads myths.
How so?
@@KP3droflxp Uranium being "self-sharpening" (it isn't, other people in the comments go into more detail on what it actually does when it hits a target, but it isn't "self-sharpening")
APHE being useless (it wasn't, he's relying on old British firing tests using 50mm or smaller guns, further demonstrated by the fact that British battleship shells DO have explosive filler and it IS more effective, and you would think that the forces in play there would be much greater than those involved with 75mm APHE shell; basically said firing tests were not scaled up to to larger calibers and were meant to justify the British continuing to use solid AP, which they ended up doing in the early war). Sure, the shrapnel may or may not end up forming a cone similar to an AP shell, but the real damage is done by the overpressure of the HE element, not the shrapnel, in an APHE.
Actually DU- APDSFS rod penetrator rounds are capped too, and not sharp/pointy but rather blunt, like most AP tank ammo. We had one fall about 6-8 feet point first onto concrete, and the tip bent. Most diagrams show a pointy tip, but on occasion you can find an accurate diagram , which shows the wind-screen/cap.
3:15 shoutout to the guy trying to get godmode
Another thing is APHE pens worse, since you’ve hollowed out the round a bit to put high explosive in it
Love you spookston, but I wouldn't really say the military doesn't know what we are talking about. I'm a loader for a m1a2 sep v3. U made some great points but not everyone will know the full potential of our ammunition for obvious reasons. Keep up the good work.
Sadly, by today, there are probably people out of the US military knowing full well of it.. If you know what I mean by this
The self-sharpening effect of sabots comes from the way they are made, not the material used.
i love wathching Spookston makes my day
just here to read the comments of all the highly experienced tankers. Wow so many battle hardened veterans in here with so much expert commentary.
Right on you were pretty much on point with every thing. As a chemist I am often rolling my eyes after hearing about how radioactive DU is. It is radioactive but compared to other radioactive isotopes its pretty far down the list. It is VERY toxic how ever, most of the time you have to worry about heavy metal poisoning not radiation sickness. What really annoys me is when people act as if it can cause a nuclear explosion.
Everyone hears about highly enriched uranium and assumes that most uranium is that
I love your myth busting videos
Great video, those myths are so prevalent. One I think you could have added is the HEAT myth that the shaped charge liquifies the copper liner before it's sent through the armour. From my reading on the subject, the shaped charge merely accelerates a smaller penetrator inside the HEAT round, adding energy to an already fast moving object, thus increasing the penetration. Liquid copper would have no effect on armour, at all, no matter how fast it's moving; it'd just solidify on the outside as steel requires a good 300°C-500°C more than copper to melt.
This applies to tank HEAT shells, RPGs, etc.
I think the distinctions between molten and not molten are fairly academic at ballistic velocities. The copper is probably "molten" insofar as it behaves more like a liquid than a solid and is probably quite hot, but the actual mechanism of penetration is more to do with velocity and concentration of force. The jet of copper is very dense and moving extremely quickly, and is able to displace and deform the steel in it's path.
High enough pressure GAS could penetrate armor.... It's essentially a liquid but because it's under so much pressure it's density is such that it technically counts as a solid. - Despite flowing like a liquid and being extremely hot..
@@OGPatriot03 A gas at a pressure where it has the density of a solif is considered a solid due to it being solid.
>APHE explodes as a cone
Well, the thing is - it explodes. It doesn't need a sphere of shrapnel to take out the whole crew, explosion of 2-3 grenades under an armor is enough to take out if not the whole crew, then most of it.
Tanks Ammunitions is why there is a 4th crewmember called the "Loader".
for some reason I couldnt help but think of the meme with APHECBCHEATAPFSDST throughout this whole video
Fun fact: I got a "Shell Shattered" effect 3 days ago when playing warthunder and failing to pen a tank.
It's less the spelling that destroys the crew, is more the over pressure pops the crew like balloons
For some reason the thumbnail made me think he was going to talk about atomic ammunition, and I think that would be hilarious in war thunder. Instead of spawning in a nuke, you get a tank with a nuclear round. It does remove the possibility of shooting down the aircraft, but I’m mostly saying this because I think it’s funny, not because it would be a good addition to the game.
Both the American DOD and the Soviet DOD equivalent(do not know the name) had developed projects for nuclear tank ammo.
It wnet nowere, but could be added.
well they could always add the Tigerwolf tank and try and make that design somehow manage to exist while breaking multiple laws of physics
Jeep with nuclear Davy Crockett RR when gaijin
So in other words, DU isn't a radiological weapon, isn't a particularly good incendiary weapon, but it is a fairly dangerous chemical weapon.
is spookston on the spectrum
depleted uranium used to be used as stapler wieghts as it was cheaper and "safer" than lead. the safer turned out to be differently safe that actual safer. so the army used to shoot people with stapler weights because its far cheaper than tungsten. maybe I'm a little unconcerned about radioactivity as my state had lots of uranium ore laying everywhere but now worth picking up much less mining it. A radon map likely shows you where useless uranium lives in large total quantities but not worth mining.
"generally speaking, you dont want to inhale any kind of heavy metal"
*sad music noises*
The wich is just “what” lol sounded so funny for some reason
i like how friction was completely thrown over board in this video.
I think the liquefaction story come from another story from tests on the Bradley IFV. How the story goes, is that they took a broadside shot at a Bradley that had a couple of goats or sheep inside, to test weapon effects. When the vehicle was checked after the APFSDS shot, there was a clean set of entry & exit holes, & a fan of viscera on the ground of the exit side. Supposedly, the high speed shockwave of the round passing through first liquefied the livestock, then created a vacuum effect on exit. This supposedly pulled the liquefied remains out of the Bradley & deposited it in a fan shape on the ground downrange. I first heard this in the '90s & have shared the story, myself. However, I have been unable to verify it's accuracy.
APHE performance varies greatly depending on factors such as type of fuse, type of explosive(even taking TNT equivalent the speed of the blast being different the effect can vary quite a lot), shell speed, fuse time etc.
the worst APHE are about equal to an simple solid shot
I love how his sponser is perfectly 10 seconds. I can just skip to the video with two taps.
Yeah but is it really worth it if it's just 10 seconds ?
Why are you even skipping the sponsorship? It's the best sponsorship on the entire website
@@dankeykang868 disagree, internet historian has some of the best sponsorships on the entire platform
Bruh
@@greggorytame6672 his sponsor is ass the last time i checked
I have never heard a more confused and disbelieving “What?” In my life
3:13 is a footage of Japanese time travelers stuck in a small tank and got destroyed by heavy machine gun
One interesting thing I learned while researching tungsten is that the US military said the changed to tungsten rounds because they were less toxic but later it was discovered that they were just as toxic as the DU rounds. They also have the same self sharpening and pyrophoric aspects to them.
Environment can wait, onward men!
here in the UK, my father had some depleted uranium masonry drill bits, back in the 1980's. They had a health warning to wash hands, thoroughly, after handling, especially before eating.
Should also wear an anti-dust mask for the reason Spookston described. No need to end life too early because of inhaling the DU particles.
The bodies "liquefying" is due more to the Overpressure than Spalling.
There is a lunatic who thinks DU shells result in actual nuclear explosion, but he's the highest grade of crazy.
The US also uses DU because it will can cause birth defects if contaminated water is drank or soil is used for farming. Helps reduce future combat capable generations.
Oh my god, you killed Ke-Ni! You bastard! lol
a good one is Both Bore types cant use certian ammo types, HESH and HEAT respectively most famous, but reality is both can use them, it just requires the will to develop these ammo type for weapon in question. which is why the Ordanace L11 and L30 120mm guns ended up with no Heat ammo, But the L7 105mm gun did.
3:13 Oh my god, you killed Ke-Ni!
Very interesting topic, keep up the good work. :)
Also, service SABOT rounds (apdsfs-t) rounds are a DU core encased in tungsten, the DU is very heavy but relatively soft where tungsten is extremely hard and has a high melting temp...the tungsten can withstand penetration pressure and temp while the DU acts as the weight forcing it through...some targets with light armor or bad armor such as a T-54/55 don't posses enough armor to even breach the tungsten penetrator...basically a sledgehammer driving a thumbtack...the depleted uranium was not put in a sabot round to make it "nuclear" or "dirty", it was put in there to be a heavy core to act as a driving force for the tungsten penetrator because its one of the heaviest materials known to man.
Tungsten has pretty much the same weight as uranium though.
”You don’t wanna be inhaling heavy metal”
That’s what happens when you mix reggae and death metal
Hello spook ! Just to tell you that you are awesome, keep up the good work !
Spookston trying to correct a military higher-up 😂
I don't play games but still watch this for military trivia lol
Spooks: "is explaining about APFSDS rounds"
Ke-Ni: 3:12
I don't understand a word but it's entertaining and I like spook's voice
the problem with DU is it "self sharpens" it atomizes and when it burns that can get into your lungs,the "it melts people" is from the middle east where people in a car get shot with a tank theres a guy that said two guys with a hose had to hose out the car
Thanks for 3:14 , I just wanted to do it.
Love that Aliens FireTeam music
I honestly thought this video was going to cover a lot more than it did hah
Honestly, the British AP/APHE tests are questionable, as Britain was the biggest user of non exploding AP shells, so they had a motive to downplay its difference to APHE. Even though real APHE fragments formed a cone, that cone would bounce around the vehicle with a relatively high kinetic energy, so I would not be much surprised if most of the damage (especially to the crew) was dealt from behind or from the sides.
Not to mention the overpressure of an explosion in a confined space...
The real problem with DU (and tungsten darts, for that matter) is their effect on the environment. Shells laying around tend to leach nastiness into the ground and the local water supply. This can be seen, for example, in Kuwait.
Yeah it's a damn shame war isn't more ecologically sustainable.
@@WackyIraqi777 of course, the obvious problem is it kills people and is frequently in the service of unjust causes. Some people don't realize that modern warfare can negatively impact the environment for years to come.
@@WackyIraqi777
It used to alot more sustainable, until gun powder become a thing.
@@jintsuubest9331 war was just giving back to the earth with fresh fertilizer in the form of bodies, now it's just lead and hot brassy metal
It won't "melt you" but it will for fck sure incinerate someone. Makes crispy critters really good.
APCR, gets a lot better when the caliber gets bigger, I wish I knew a long time ago, also, join a squadron, I’ve gone 2 and a half years of not knowing I could’ve gotten squadron vehicles
One thing that should have been mentioned is that while APCR does have a higher ability to bounce, it doesn’t mean it won’t go though angled armor. It works just like apds just more primitive
Very good video
Hold up
*Depleted uranium shaped charge?*
People have tried basicallyu every metal available to use as a liner. Even gold an platinum among other heavy metals. The Russian 3BK21B shell uses depleted uranium as a liner, to combat the Abrams and Challenger composite armor
Thanks for the video I always felt that the explanation for a capped shell was odd as it's not like the angular momentum would just disappear.
i'm telling you boss we bounced fr fr, no cap
Bc shells irl: more aerodynamic, more accurately, higher velocity
War thunder: nothing changes except slightly better angle performance
Actually, soft caps don't always help against slopes. Dejmian XYZ has a series of 3 simulations of various types of shell striking the Hetzer's 60@60° superstructure armour, 2 of which are 76mm M1 shells, and the uncapped M79 actually performs better than the M62 which is APBCB-HE, for multiple reasons, but one of them is the cap. The cap prevents the tip of the shell from breaking which allows it to be deflected and not bite into the steel, whereas the uncapped shell has the tip break and go up, but the rest of the shell actually pushes through. At least that's how I interpreted the video. Feel free to check for yourselves. They're very short.
Could you provide the data on the firing test between APHE and solid shot? Firing tests back in the day (and sometimes even now) were often fraught with poor methodology or failure to take into account certain variables, and that's not including the ones that were done to purposefully get a certain end result.
For example, in the age of the ironclad Britain (funnily enough the same country you mention) did firing tastes against iron plate that supposedly showed it was proof against the weapons it was likely to face, with the plate stopping the rounds while staying intact. However, it was found in practice that this did not occur, and so they ran the tests again, but this time accounting for the affect ambient temperature might have on the plate (sailing through the North Sea, for example, which would lower the temperature in the iron and make it more brittle). It was found that while effective at warmer temperatures, when in colder climates the iron plate in question would actually shatter rather than stop the rounds.
This is why it is EXTREMELY important to try and look at multiple firing tests and especially post-battle damage reports rather than relying on just one firing test, as that firing test might be absolutely useless for predicting outcomes in the field.
Doesn't matter bro, anything that it may be, in this legendary game, fuel tanks and tracks are stil gonna beat it's @ss!
I love how the apfsds example is them shooting into a mini van
Edit: it's a fin stabilized apds
I think I saw this video before. They prefered APFSDS to take out suicide bomber cars, because the round would create shrapnels that killed anyone inside.
Mabye it was also about collateral damage, since HE or HEAT would send lethal fragments flying around.
@@kimjanek646 I dont think you need to worry about which round you're using to prevent collateral damage if you're shooting a van filled with explosives...
Wasn't there once a claim that DU ammunition was in part responsible for the Gulf-War syndrome? That US personell were not instructed properly when it came to examining destroyed enemy tanks, which were struck by DU ammunition (from A-10 gatling guns or DU bombs and the likes) , thus exposing them to a heavy dose of heavy metals?
A claim maybe, but Gulf-War syndrome is vaccine derived. I would be skeptical of anyone trying to point people away from that conclusion..
I've heard the words DU bomb many times but the only source regarding it I've seen is some shit Serbian propaganda about being barraged with DU.
2:20 I need to hear genuine confusion from spooks more often, that was pretty amusing.
I know this is a tank channel mainly. But if gaijin wants to add sim air maps we need aerial refueling
Ey spookston I was that random abrams that protected you from death on the b point