Hey everyone - some fascinating figures for those interested. Straight from Piper themselves - here is some evidence of the T-Tail Lance's ground-loving characteristics, speeds from the POH of a regular PA32R (straight tail Lance) compared to the PA32RT (T-Tail Lance). POH Rotate Speeds: PA32R - 52-65Kts PA32RT - 75-85Kts POH Approach Speeds: PA32R - 75Kts PA32RT - 95Kts Both POHs are available with a quick google search if anyone wants to verify.
I have over 2000 hours flying a T tailed Lance. Used it for business and pleasure. Only did a balloon takeoff once, and that was the first one. Then a little common sense flying skills took over, and it was never a problem again. Gap seals on the elevator put the handling almost to that of a straight tail. Like the Six, this plane was a truck. If you could close the doors, it would fly. My employer asked me what plane would I recommend for the company. After I saw a Piper ad with a spinet piano in the back and the men that loaded it, I said this is the one. Home was the North East of the USA. This was a great weather platform which was tested a lot over 9 years. We carried a lot of cargo in the Lance. Having the horizontal stabilizer way up high, made it so much easier backing up to the cargo doors.
I had a 1979 T tail Lance in the 1990’s. It was my first complex airplane. As a “kid” in the 90’s, this airplane felt like an airliner compared to anything else I’d flown. I loved that plane. Mine had the avocado green velvet interior with green stripes on white. Not the prettiest color scheme. I loved the amount of room inside. It’s a wide airframe so no rubbing shoulders. That 6cyl Lycoming IO-540 was as smooth as an electric motor compared to a 4cyl. I had the two blade prop which looked like paddles. In turbulence, she would yaw back and forth like crazy. If ATC called out traffic at 12 o’clock I’d automatically be scanning from 10 to 2. One advantage of the T tail was that you could make power changes without a huge change in pitch. This was nice in IFR. With just one or two people sitting in the front seats I had to keep a 50# sand bag on the baggage compartment for CG. One thing for certain, however, you absolutely did not want to load this aircraft aft CG. Things got real ugly then. I have great memories of that airplane.
One thing you didn't mention about the T-Tail design is that it sits outside of the propeller slip stream, and so you don't get any pitching moments when you're making power changes.
Thanks, good point. Yes we neglected to mention! The pitching moment is definitely far less pronounced. Certainly very difficult to keep that nose wheel off the ground after touchdown.
just a quickie about stock footage. You might want to replace those Arrows with at least a Saratoga or some kind of Lance. But overall nice assessment. These were my first "complex" airplane in training back in the day. I wish they had more span on the horizontal and a cowl more like the Turbo Arrows - prolly 5 kts and better field performance. And it is known that anything over 200-210hp can benefit form the extra blade area of a 3 blade, which also help field performance - not so much in cruise. Cheers mate!
Well not only did they put the tail out the prop wash, they made it a smaller surface area than the straight tail lance/Saratoga thus limiting the effectiveness further. The t tails get a slight speed advantage to the straight tail tho with the less drag
@@DeadstickAdventures I think you mentioned it, could be any number of things, improper rigging, hanging flap or gear wheel/door. Could be a door slightly open into the airstream. And when I say faster I'm talking like 2-5 kts haha, barely noticable
Thanks for the video. I own a 1978 Piper Lance II and just wanted to point out a few things. Not sure if there were variations (I’m not aware of any) but my plane holds 98 gals with 94 useable…not 96. I also see TAS between 7-9k around 160-162kts…not the 145kts TAS you mentioned. Lastly, unless the rules are different in your neck of the woods (I’m in the US) but here you CANNOT simply turn the middle front facing seats around to face the rear or vice versa. Converting a forward facing middle row PA-32 regardless of the year or model requires a STC and is quite expensive. If you simply turn them around it’s illegal. The mounting points are completely different. Otherwise, good video.
Interesting yours is much faster. We rarely see any better than low 150s TAS out of this one (VH-TLG). Hmm okay that’s interesting about the seat STC. I’ve never personally turned them around myself. I have however taken them out for extra baggage space.
@@DeadstickAdventures yeah not sure why there’s a big difference in TAS but I just found a panel shot I took last year. 8,500ft at 70% power was 166TAS. That was a bit above normal but again, 160-162 is very common above 7k. I do have some speed mods but that wouldn’t account for the 20kt difference. Something is slowing that bird down. It should be able to reach 155kts TAS easy above 6k.
what speed mods have u done? do u agree with the cons to owning this plane, that deadstick mentioned here? what do u like and dislike about it? just trying to learn more about this cool plane! @@piperjim3188
@@piperjim3188 Yeah its always been a bit of a slug since I first flew it around 10 years ago. The book agrees with the speeds you're quoting so I'm not sure why this one is so much slower. It also takes a lot of runway to get it off the ground. I'd personally never take it into a runway less than say 2600' and I'd prefer 3000+ if I had any load.
I loved the old Cherokee Sixes and also flew a Lance and several Saratogas but never the T-tail Lance. However, I did fly a T-tail Arrow IV and did not find the tail to be a detriment on it compared to the Arrow III.
Very little handling difference between the Arrow’s with different tails. Conversely, quite noticable handling difference between the Lance’s. I have instructed in all 4 variants. I fly the T-tail Lance routinely on a 2000 ft turf strip, but it takes a well-trained pilot and an aft CoG.
what about the T-Tail config specifically makes it a runway hog with higher approach speeds? Sorry, I wasn't fully clear from the video.@@DeadstickAdventures
@@KuostA We'll I'm no aerodynamic expert but first-hand experience tells me that the T-Tail Lance physically doesn't WANT to fly until you're through 80kts on takeoff. The straight tail models seem much easier to coax into the air at lower speeds. As for the offical Piper Speeds - I verified this by comparing Section 4 of the PA32RT (T-Tail) POH directly with the PA32R (straight tail) POH. Recommended approach and rotate speeds for a normal operations were staggeringly different. Rotate: PA32RT - 75-85Kts PA32R - 52-65Kts Approach: PA32RT - 95Kts PA32R - 75Kts Both POHs are available with a quick google search if anyone wants to verify.
wow, those really are staggeringly different speeds for both rotation and approach. Surprised anyone would see value over this over the straight tail then tbh. Very surprising. @@DeadstickAdventures
The T-tailed plane seems more complex than it needed to be since cabling for the stabilizer had to go up the tail and then they had to add external support wires on the outside which just looks ugly on a plane.
Here's a reason - T-tails are conducive to icing in GA icing since the top of the tail may be inaccessible without a ladder (which causes dangers of its own in icy conditions). Since most GA aircraft don't fly out of international airports and thus likely the pilot has to clean the ice and snow off his flight surfaces himself, it's easy to "overlook" the elevators when cleaning the plane. Oh, and on an unrelated note: sight gauges are pretty useless once the plane starts its roll. Just sayin'....
Lots of time in PA-32's back in the 80's. The T tail turbo lance is without a doubt the worst handling GA airplane I have ever flown. It would be interesting to see how many had been broken on landing etc. Nice and fast but otherwise a horrible airplane.
@@DeadstickAdventures Ha easily done. My dad had a Turbo Arrow 4, which is the only reason i know. I grew up flying it with him. I'm not sure if it was different with the shorter body of the PA28, but there were some advantages to the T tail. I remember getting to fly a fair with with in friends aircraft who had straight tail PA28s, and the T tail was more stable, easier to trim and if i remember it was almost impossible to stall, as the tail would stall first, which might mean you flew a few knots faster than the straight tail, it was nicer to land as if removed that PA28, float.. nice video though, brings back many happy memories. Take care and keep up the good work.
@@tomg8636 We actually just did a video on the non-turbo Arrow IV before this video (may have been how that photo ended up in there!). Great aircraft. I've got to agree with you, the T-Tail on the Arrow was far less detrimental to the flying qualities of the Arrow than it was to the Lance. Thanks for the kind words :)
You trundle along heavy on all three until speed is attained to get the nose up some. With a conventional tail, weight can be got off the mains earlier in the TO roll, and the airplane can accelerate better.
I see, is that because the conventional tail horizontal stabilator config allows more elevator authority earlier? or is it cuz the larger stabilator creates more lift? or etc. @@R760-E2
I’ve got an Arrow IV (T-tail). It’s the same as the regular tail during taxi on grass/rough field but I’m halfway down the runway before I can get the some weight off the nose wheel. However, as long as the field is reasonable smooth it works fine. The t-tail is still a pain for snow removal. I keep a ladder at my tie down. I wasn’t keen on the t-tail when I bought into the partnership but it’s been a good plane just like all the other pipers I’ve flown.
T tails are the best ,,, the horizontal is out of the prop wash,,, out of the rudder shadow,, farther away from the ground effect ,,, diamond uses T tails on all their birds
A T-tail is great in transport category aeroplanes because the tail is out of the way of ground equipment, but in GA aeroplanes it’s pretty hard to check the stabilator for damage or inspect for frost/ice. It also means engineers need to get up higher to open inspection panels and check cables and bolts which means it mightn’t get done or increase costs.
@@chikchikboom1flew a da20 for years,,, 1 hand in front of the rudder and slight force pushing down and the skid plate on the tail hits the ground and now at same level as a non T tail,,, its a non issue with this plane
Hey everyone - some fascinating figures for those interested. Straight from Piper themselves - here is some evidence of the T-Tail Lance's ground-loving characteristics, speeds from the POH of a regular PA32R (straight tail Lance) compared to the PA32RT (T-Tail Lance).
POH Rotate Speeds:
PA32R - 52-65Kts
PA32RT - 75-85Kts
POH Approach Speeds:
PA32R - 75Kts
PA32RT - 95Kts
Both POHs are available with a quick google search if anyone wants to verify.
I have over 2000 hours flying a T tailed Lance.
Used it for business and pleasure.
Only did a balloon takeoff once, and that was the first one. Then a little common sense flying skills took over, and it was never a problem again.
Gap seals on the elevator put the handling almost to that of a straight tail.
Like the Six, this plane was a truck. If you could close the doors, it would fly.
My employer asked me what plane would I recommend for the company. After I saw a Piper ad with a spinet piano in the back and the men that loaded it, I said this is the one.
Home was the North East of the USA. This was a great weather platform which was tested a lot over 9 years.
We carried a lot of cargo in the Lance. Having the horizontal stabilizer way up high, made it so much easier backing up to the cargo doors.
I had a 1979 T tail Lance in the 1990’s. It was my first complex airplane. As a “kid” in the 90’s, this airplane felt like an airliner compared to anything else I’d flown. I loved that plane. Mine had the avocado green velvet interior with green stripes on white. Not the prettiest color scheme. I loved the amount of room inside. It’s a wide airframe so no rubbing shoulders. That 6cyl Lycoming IO-540 was as smooth as an electric motor compared to a 4cyl. I had the two blade prop which looked like paddles. In turbulence, she would yaw back and forth like crazy. If ATC called out traffic at 12 o’clock I’d automatically be scanning from 10 to 2. One advantage of the T tail was that you could make power changes without a huge change in pitch. This was nice in IFR. With just one or two people sitting in the front seats I had to keep a 50# sand bag on the baggage compartment for CG. One thing for certain, however, you absolutely did not want to load this aircraft aft CG. Things got real ugly then. I have great memories of that airplane.
I know what you mean about it feeling like an airliner!
Please keep making Piper videos. Piper is so underrated.
We will. Seneca III is next 😁
I love my Lance II! Even the T tail.
Glad to hear it!
One thing you didn't mention about the T-Tail design is that it sits outside of the propeller slip stream, and so you don't get any pitching moments when you're making power changes.
Thanks, good point. Yes we neglected to mention! The pitching moment is definitely far less pronounced. Certainly very difficult to keep that nose wheel off the ground after touchdown.
just a quickie about stock footage. You might want to replace those Arrows with at least a Saratoga or some kind of Lance. But overall nice assessment. These were my first "complex" airplane in training back in the day. I wish they had more span on the horizontal and a cowl more like the Turbo Arrows - prolly 5 kts and better field performance. And it is known that anything over 200-210hp can benefit form the extra blade area of a 3 blade, which also help field performance - not so much in cruise. Cheers mate!
The Lance is a great machine, certainly the best single GA aeroplane I ever operated.
Agreed. I just prefer the straight tail variants!
Love these videos of various aircraft.
Thank you. We've got a Seneca III coming up next. SR22 after that.
Looking forward to it. I’ve flown the Seneca on MSFS and found it a handful. Keen to see how you go in reality.
Well not only did they put the tail out the prop wash, they made it a smaller surface area than the straight tail lance/Saratoga thus limiting the effectiveness further. The t tails get a slight speed advantage to the straight tail tho with the less drag
Ah yes we must’ve forgot to mention the smaller size. Ours unfortunately is slower than we had hoped given the less drag. Unsure why
@@DeadstickAdventures I think you mentioned it, could be any number of things, improper rigging, hanging flap or gear wheel/door. Could be a door slightly open into the airstream. And when I say faster I'm talking like 2-5 kts haha, barely noticable
3:55 also acts as a barbeque!
I put an Airtex interior in my Arrow. Worth every cent. Smells like a leather jacket instead of gasoline and sweat.
Very nice. They really modernise the interior. This Lance could do with an upgrade
Thanks for the video. I own a 1978 Piper Lance II and just wanted to point out a few things. Not sure if there were variations (I’m not aware of any) but my plane holds 98 gals with 94 useable…not 96. I also see TAS between 7-9k around 160-162kts…not the 145kts TAS you mentioned. Lastly, unless the rules are different in your neck of the woods (I’m in the US) but here you CANNOT simply turn the middle front facing seats around to face the rear or vice versa. Converting a forward facing middle row PA-32 regardless of the year or model requires a STC and is quite expensive. If you simply turn them around it’s illegal. The mounting points are completely different. Otherwise, good video.
Interesting yours is much faster. We rarely see any better than low 150s TAS out of this one (VH-TLG).
Hmm okay that’s interesting about the seat STC. I’ve never personally turned them around myself. I have however taken them out for extra baggage space.
@@DeadstickAdventures yeah not sure why there’s a big difference in TAS but I just found a panel shot I took last year. 8,500ft at 70% power was 166TAS. That was a bit above normal but again, 160-162 is very common above 7k. I do have some speed mods but that wouldn’t account for the 20kt difference. Something is slowing that bird down. It should be able to reach 155kts TAS easy above 6k.
what speed mods have u done? do u agree with the cons to owning this plane, that deadstick mentioned here? what do u like and dislike about it? just trying to learn more about this cool plane! @@piperjim3188
@@piperjim3188 Yeah its always been a bit of a slug since I first flew it around 10 years ago. The book agrees with the speeds you're quoting so I'm not sure why this one is so much slower. It also takes a lot of runway to get it off the ground. I'd personally never take it into a runway less than say 2600' and I'd prefer 3000+ if I had any load.
Great video. Love all the tips and details!!!
Thanks so much!
Glad I found your channel. Your videos are awesome. Hopefully mine will get as good as yours.
Thanks man! If you want to collaborate sometimes we’d definitely be down
@@DeadstickAdventures Most definitely 👌
At 3:40 you’ve pictured a PA28RT-201T (Turbo Arrow IV) instead of a Lance.
Yep, noticed that too.
Ah yep I didn’t catch that before we posted it. Oops 🤦♂️
I loved the old Cherokee Sixes and also flew a Lance and several Saratogas but never the T-tail Lance. However, I did fly a T-tail Arrow IV and did not find the tail to be a detriment on it compared to the Arrow III.
Very little handling difference between the Arrow’s with different tails. Conversely, quite noticable handling difference between the Lance’s. I have instructed in all 4 variants. I fly the T-tail Lance routinely on a 2000 ft turf strip, but it takes a well-trained pilot and an aft CoG.
The "T" tail gives people the "TramaHawk" queasy feeling.....
hahaha well said!
Does this aircraft have T-Tail blanking issues that transport category T-tails have? I'd be most concerned about that with this configuration.
The stall doesn’t suffer the same issues thankfully. Other than that it’s really just a runway hog and requires high approach speeds
what about the T-Tail config specifically makes it a runway hog with higher approach speeds? Sorry, I wasn't fully clear from the video.@@DeadstickAdventures
@@KuostA We'll I'm no aerodynamic expert but first-hand experience tells me that the T-Tail Lance physically doesn't WANT to fly until you're through 80kts on takeoff. The straight tail models seem much easier to coax into the air at lower speeds.
As for the offical Piper Speeds - I verified this by comparing Section 4 of the PA32RT (T-Tail) POH directly with the PA32R (straight tail) POH. Recommended approach and rotate speeds for a normal operations were staggeringly different.
Rotate:
PA32RT - 75-85Kts
PA32R - 52-65Kts
Approach:
PA32RT - 95Kts
PA32R - 75Kts
Both POHs are available with a quick google search if anyone wants to verify.
wow, those really are staggeringly different speeds for both rotation and approach. Surprised anyone would see value over this over the straight tail then tbh. Very surprising. @@DeadstickAdventures
how does the main wing not blank out the T-tail during a stall, etc., just like it tends to do in other T-tails?@@DeadstickAdventures
The T-tailed plane seems more complex than it needed to be since cabling for the stabilizer had to go up the tail and then they had to add external support wires on the outside which just looks ugly on a plane.
Here's a reason - T-tails are conducive to icing in GA icing since the top of the tail may be inaccessible without a ladder (which causes dangers of its own in icy conditions). Since most GA aircraft don't fly out of international airports and thus likely the pilot has to clean the ice and snow off his flight surfaces himself, it's easy to "overlook" the elevators when cleaning the plane.
Oh, and on an unrelated note: sight gauges are pretty useless once the plane starts its roll. Just sayin'....
Stall characteristics?
Quite benign thankfully. Little bit more of a push to break the stall thanks to the lack of airflow over the tail.
Lots of time in PA-32's back in the 80's. The T tail turbo lance is without a doubt the worst handling GA airplane I have ever flown. It would be interesting to see how many had been broken on landing etc. Nice and fast but otherwise a horrible airplane.
3:34 that a Pa28 tube arrow 4, not a lance.
Yeah my bad bro… I realized too late 🤦♂️
@@DeadstickAdventures Ha easily done. My dad had a Turbo Arrow 4, which is the only reason i know. I grew up flying it with him. I'm not sure if it was different with the shorter body of the PA28, but there were some advantages to the T tail. I remember getting to fly a fair with with in friends aircraft who had straight tail PA28s, and the T tail was more stable, easier to trim and if i remember it was almost impossible to stall, as the tail would stall first, which might mean you flew a few knots faster than the straight tail, it was nicer to land as if removed that PA28, float.. nice video though, brings back many happy memories. Take care and keep up the good work.
@@tomg8636
We actually just did a video on the non-turbo Arrow IV before this video (may have been how that photo ended up in there!). Great aircraft. I've got to agree with you, the T-Tail on the Arrow was far less detrimental to the flying qualities of the Arrow than it was to the Lance. Thanks for the kind words :)
He only good thing about any PA32 was it was roomy.
Flew one a couple times and hated it. T tail was the STUPIDEST thing Piper did to these airplanes.
You're not alone in that opinion! Thanks for watching :)
All of the T tails are a detriment on take-off from soft grass fields.
why?
You trundle along heavy on all three until speed is attained to get the nose up some. With a conventional tail, weight
can be got off the mains earlier in the TO roll, and the airplane can accelerate better.
I see, is that because the conventional tail horizontal stabilator config allows more elevator authority earlier? or is it cuz the larger stabilator creates more lift? or etc. @@R760-E2
@@KuostA Exactly, because it's directly behind the prop, not so far above it's effect.
I’ve got an Arrow IV (T-tail). It’s the same as the regular tail during taxi on grass/rough field but I’m halfway down the runway before I can get the some weight off the nose wheel. However, as long as the field is reasonable smooth it works fine. The t-tail is still a pain for snow removal. I keep a ladder at my tie down. I wasn’t keen on the t-tail when I bought into the partnership but it’s been a good plane just like all the other pipers I’ve flown.
T tails are the best ,,, the horizontal is out of the prop wash,,, out of the rudder shadow,, farther away from the ground effect ,,, diamond uses T tails on all their birds
A T-tail is great in transport category aeroplanes because the tail is out of the way of ground equipment, but in GA aeroplanes it’s pretty hard to check the stabilator for damage or inspect for frost/ice. It also means engineers need to get up higher to open inspection panels and check cables and bolts which means it mightn’t get done or increase costs.
@@chikchikboom1flew a da20 for years,,, 1 hand in front of the rudder and slight force pushing down and the skid plate on the tail hits the ground and now at same level as a non T tail,,, its a non issue with this plane