Why does sci-fi always do this? Cause it's easy. Depicting a functioning religion is hard. Depicting a functioning religion that isn't obviously Catholicism is really hard. There are so many social and historical factors that go into a real religion developing over time that most writers aren't sure where to start on an alien one, since usually aliens in most sci-fi are stand ins for some social group or issue., and aren't developed beyond that. Making religion dumb is easier. Especially for tv.
Making religion anyting BUT dumb is the challenge. Religion by nature makes no sense and is either depicted as something vile or culturally important, they're either evil or primitive, or both. Scifi tends to be written by fairly bright, well read people and if you're educated you're less likely to be sympathetic religion.
@@aliservan7188 It is indeed the challenge. However, I think the challenge is to not fall into the mindset of making it simplistic. While I agree that religion makes little sense, faith is an important aspect of cultural development, and shouldn't be treated so callously. As I said, having to take into account all the historical and social aspects religion is influenced by, and influences, is a lot of work. Work that tends to challenge the assumptions of the writers if they are to present something that isn't simplistic, and exists only to justify those very assumptions. Very bright people aren't afraid of having their own mindset challenged. Even by themselves.
Not helped by the behaviors of real life religious institutions. Conservative Catholics and evangelicals have worked very hard to make themselves synonymous with Christianity as a whole. Various dictators have claimed a specific, hardline form of Islam is the one true version and they will enforce it. India’s current government are Hindu nationalist. None of these people truly speak for people of faith, but they pretend to, with a lot of money, power, and propaganda, so for those on the outside, or those who escaped, that can seem like all religion is.
It is interesting how attempting to create a fictional religion can start to present the flaws and contradictions that exist within real world religions. Once you start writing it and realizing how many systems just aren't making sense both in your own and the real world "references," I can see how it would be very difficult for an educated writer to believe in a religion as well as to make the one they're creating believable. Not the direction this was headed, but now that I think about it, that sounds like a pretty good exercise for religious people to do to test how their beliefs hold up under a microscope.
@@BlueSparxLPs It's always a good idea to test your beliefs, no matter what they are. That said, I agree, it can be difficult, though not impossible. For instance, I'm very much an atheist, but I respect Buddhist philosophy, and as a fantasy author, routinely create religions and faith based practices for the worlds I create. Knowing the flaws doesn't mean you can't explore the practice of faith thoughtfully. In fact, within sci-fi, I think there's an argument to be made about highlighting the inherent flaws of religion gone wrong, and the greater role faith can play as a tool for helping people, enhancing society, and creating a better world for everyone. Honestly, most sci-fi authors can't seem to tell the difference between religion and faith, much less how the two things can be applied for the purpose of social examination, which really is kind of the point of sci-fi in the first place.
Honestly I think Star Trek: Deep Space Nine handled the subject of religion really well. There are people throughout the series who worship The Wormhole Prophets that run the gamut from hypocritical zealots who only use their faith to gain power to genuinely good natured and compassionate people who use their faith as inspiration to be better people. It shows that people of faith are just that: people with diverse opinions and personalities that are informed by their beliefs. And what's more the show never presents anyone as being naive or stupid for believing in The Prophets. They're just shown as having a unique, but ultimately valid, interpretation of a celestial phenomenon. And there are excellent episodes that talk about how faith and science aren't mutually exclusive things.
Yeah Kira is a character with faith that isn't treated like a complete idiot. Sure people question her but in an interested rather than condescending way. Babylon 5 is pretty good at this too.
You are absolutely right. I remember when Jake tells Sisko about Bajoran beliefs being dumb (or something to that effect) and Sisko gently explaining that they’re not, and that it was their faith that gave the Bajorans the strength to ultimately chase the Cardassians off their world. A great scene.
I’m a Christian and a casual sci-fi fan, and I have religious friends who are more hardcore sci-fi fans themselves. We’ve all complained about the attitude towards faith in most of the genre, the “oh you ignorant backwards sheep, let us save you from your superstitious ways” thing is infuriating. I’m not against fictional critique of religion (including mine), but it should at least be more thoughtful than just taking for granted that an empirical atheistic worldview is obviously THE RIGHT one, and anyone who disagrees is either stupid or bigoted. I’m glad that a nonreligious person like yourself is willing to call this cliche stuff out. Thank you and have a great day!
I'm trying to think if having faith has actually saved someone in the show? I would have thought therr would be one example because of how many religion based stories there have been, but I can't think of any?
I know I'm 5 months late on this, but as a *inhales* member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (we're supposed to use the full name haha), I think the biggest issue with the whole theme of "rely on your own strength and not religion to just save everything" is that religion isn't supposed to make things easy, it's just supposed to teach you how to handle trials. It's not meant to get rid of trials.
Well good morning! As a open minded pastor who very much understands and struggles with the negative ways religion can influence people, societal issues, politics and beyond, its refreshing to hear your perspective. Thank you Nathaniel. From my little corner of the universe i strive to encourage, open mindedness, freedom, critical thinking, acceptance and societal change based on inclusivity and love. Its hard, lonely and often unrewarded but necessary. I will never be another cog in the machine of faith based hatred and exclusion. Not all religions are like that. Thank you for this early Sunday morning gift.
Where two or three of us are gathered, hey? :) I strive for the same things as a lay member of my congregation (okay, I'm a deacon, but like... absolutely a layperson). I'm also a writer, but I haven't delved into writing science fiction yet. I'm definitely keeping this troubling depiction of religion in mind, should I ever explore that in my writing!
I have an even bigger issue with the "worldhopper seen as a God" sci-fi trope: it's based on the old Enlightenment era myths of, say, Captain Cook going to the Hawaiian islands and being thought of as a God (which is not how it happened, but it's still how it's taught in western countries). I don't care about shitting on religion, but I do care about perpetuating colonialist myths and models of thinking. That's personally why I find that particular trope so lazy. It's condescending, dehumanizing, infantilizing in all of the ways colonialism is.
Also Cortés! I was studying some Latin American history and it turns out the idea that the Spanish were seen as Gods is a later addition to make the Aztecs basically seem stupid and the Spanish seem more powerful to the "warrior race". The Aztecs were great fighters, but the idea that they mighr have thought the Spanish were gods was because on first meeting another powerful figure they traditionally offer them a lot and tried to get the Spanish to leave by giving them lots of gifts originally. The accounts of the place they visited before going to Tenochtitlan was about how they taught the people about Catholicism and one writer said that since many women were slaves, they could accept the Virgin as a mother figure more than the traditional fertility gods. The religions were also already a mix of religions, so to them, they may just have been accepting another goddess they happened to like.
I think The Face of Evil is a good exploration of religion and blind worship from Classic Who, and it's very nuanced in its approach. Also, for a positive take on religion, The Curse of Fenric is a great example. Haven't read this book yet but I've always found the concept to be a decent one- Jaynestown from Firefly is another interesting take on this kind of story (just caught the bit where you mention it and whilst I agree it's one of the weaker episodes Shepherd Book is such a good take on a religious character I think it balances out a bit)
I was gonna recommend Face of Evil. Actually, the companion who joins the Doctor in the TARDIS at the end of this episode is one of my favorites. I think she has a nicely paced character arc, and it is one of balancing a faith and culture she was raised in with a growing appreciation of science.
Shepard Book was a great representation. It was clear he had a different past. My favorite quote: Zoe: Preacher, don’t the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killin’? Book: Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps.
Except of course the discussion of faith in Curse of Fenric is to explain why crucifixes would work to repel vampires if Christianity is false; i.e. it is not the cross they fear but the focus of faith through it, and therefore a hammer and sickle will be just as effective if the wielder is a Soviet Communist. Similarly Gridlock is positive about the concept of a "useful lie" being more beneficial than the truth. I don't think religion as a useful lie is really the kind of respect religious people want. They don't see the object of their faith as "a useful lie", they see it as the truth. Perhaps the most respectful towards religious people is Kinda and Snakedance. I'm kind of surprised COG thinks he hasn't seen the treatment of the religious as dupes and charlatans in classic Who - The Aztecs, The Mythmakers, The Daemons, Curse of Peladon, Face of Evil (as you mention), Brain of Morbius (arguably, the sacred flame is not magical - it's just a gas), Power of Kroll, Horns of Nimon, Meglos, Masque of Mandragora. "He/she's not the messiah/god/devil/prophet, he's a very naughty alien" is a fairly regular plot throughout Doctor Who. And I don't really see how, in a multicultural society, any show could really do any differently and not wind up more excluding, rather than more inclusive, except by leaving it a mystery (as it is in Kinda and Snakedance), because if any religion was established to be true it would tacitly imply that all other religions were untrue. Bram Stoker's vampire lore is so steeped in Catholicism it can barely function in a world where Catholicism isn't assumed to be the true faith; something more recent treatments of the vampire legend have had to struggle to rationalize. *** Yes, a story could feature an intelligent religious person whose beliefs are respected, but only if the truth behind their beliefs remains undiscussed. The muslim character in The God Complex can talk about her beliefs about Hell but it can't offer an explanation of the validity of the belief because to do so would exclude either Muslims or every non-Muslim. At least if a fictional religion is demonstrated to be based on misinterpretation, misunderstanding and chinese whispers no one needs to be hurt because it won't necessarily be referring to their religion, just to everyone else's - in fact every religious person believes adherents of other religions to be in some way dupes or charlatans because all religions are essentially supremacist, so a story in which a religion is shown to be made up of dupes and charlatans misunderstanding an historic event is accessible to everyone regardless of their religion, but one in which a religion is shown to be true would only be accessible to those who are not devout in any. Obviously Star Wars is a franchise in which a religion is shown to be factual (sort of, although bear in mind in The Last Jedi Luke burns the holy books to the approval of Yoda's ghost. Solo may have been wrong to believe the Jedi beliefs were baseless, but it transpires that Luke was also wrong to believe the Jedi beliefs were fact), as a result there are whole tracts written about why Star Wars is inconsistent with Christianity. You can tell a hundred and one stories about religions that turn out to be fake and a religious person will not be offended because surely you don't mean their religion (unless you very blatantly do, as with Michael Moorcock's "Behold The Man") but if you write one in which a religion turns out to be true you require them to suspend their disbelief (belief requires disbelief in the alternatives) for the duration of entertaining the story. *** Even, Chronicles of Narnia, which is allegorically a Christian story (C.S. Lewis was a clergyman and theologist), contradicts Christianity if it is taken literally rather than allegorically. That classic Star Trek story set on a world where the Roman empire never fell is practically proselytyzing as it is revealed, bu Uhura, that the Sun-Worshippers persecuted by the Roman regime, are not SUN-worshippers at all, but SON-worshippers; it's a weird twist because it doesn't explain anything, and for an audience to think it does relies on the, believing some religions are more primitive than others, specifically sun-worshipping religions are more primitive than son of god worshipping religions - it is singly the most Christian supremacist Star Trek story in the entire canon. *** In brief, if you depict religion at all you have three options, it is false, in which case the followers are dupes and charlatans, it's a mystery in which case they may be dupes and charlatans but instead they are spookily wise, or their religion is true. Of these three the one most likely to offend religious people is the latter, because religious people have a religion and being told other religions are fake is exactly what they believe, but being told other religions are real is contrary to their beliefs. I think COG is making the error of being offended on behalf of the unoffended. *** I suppose if I was to balance the books, something that I'd like to see tackled, because it is very current, is dogma masquerading as science - that is a society where something untrue is believed, but they declare it to be "settled science" and consider any who dispute it to be "science deniers"! That trend in modern discourse, the post-religious religion, is deserving of some serious satirical take down. It is touched on occasionally in classic Who; in Genesis of the Daleks it is the consensus of the scientists on Skaro is that it is impossible for other worlds to sustain life, similar themes in other SF franchises might include Planet of the Apes in which Dotor Saius' belief that humans could never learn to think rationally as apes do is not religious dogma but science dogma - in the novel he (or his counterpart - I don't recall if he is named Saius in the novel) claims that the unfamiliarity with tree climbing renders humans incapable of conceptualizing 3-dimensional space, which satirizes Evolutionary Psychological just-so stories that justified beliefs in the inferiority of blacks during the era of slavery. Zira and Cornelius are not just heretics against ape religion but against the consensus of the ape scientific community. At least that would demonstrate a balance to show that dogma is equally arrogant (one could even say hubristic) and faith equally foolish whether it is theistic or theoretical.
@@markpostgate2551 As a Christian myself, your points are very interesting. I would strongly disagree, though, with your 3 options for writers who include religious people in their stories - I think there's a very straightforward fourth option, which is to include religious people as they are in real life - not as mysterious beings with strange abilities, not as indoctrinated idiots and not as people who've got everything right! Rather, as people who earnestly seek truth and believe themselves to have found it! In real life, there is no simple 'gotcha' answer to religion - no straightforward resolution to someone's story, so just depict people as they are
I had an idea for a plot where the Doctor lands on a planet where the main religion revolves around The Master. And everyone refuses to talk to her because the people of the planet demonize The Doctor. The religion only exists because The Master is manipulating the people on the planet.
Passing Thru Gethsemane is probably the best example of where B5 showed religion in a respectful light. Which is interesting seeing that JMS is an atheist.
I was going to say this myself. The only issue I had with religion in B5 was that basically each of the races had a singular religion, and then in the episode where each race showed off their religion, it ended with "Look at all the different beliefs humans have!" It's frustrating to me when every other culture but human is shown to be monolithic.
@@LorathZ even there, B5 is better than most. It's easy to miss because the Minbari religion is so centered, and their uniformity actually makes sense within the world building. But the Narn mention having many belief systems several times, which seems to be reflected in the structure of their names, and the Centauri are polytheistic, which tends to result in a multitude of sects.
Honestly as a liberal Catholic (in a ware of the contradiction, leave me alone) I hate how most Sci-Fi handles religion (except Trek they tend to handle it well). I honestly get so annoyed at how religious people are treated.
Try reading the Dresden Files by Jim Butcher. Starting with "Grave Peril" there is a major character who's deeply religious, and it's shown to be as much of a strength for him as Harry Dresden's magic is for him. The whole series is fabulous for many, many reasons, but his respectful depiction of religion is one of the best!
Thank you for mentioning Babylon 5. The depiction of religion in that series holds up to this day. There's a spectacular secondary storyline in S1E5, The Parliament of Dreams, that covers the "predominant religion" of each of the primary worlds. How they handle Earth is amazing. They also have a created human religion called "Foundationism" which was formed in the timeline when the human race met aliens for the first time and has the principle that God is too big to be defined by words and that the closer one gets to defining God, the further away it gets. Sinclair was a Jesuit, Ivanova was Jewish, and both were shown with their religion central to who they are, not shaken even when revelations are made about the Vorlon race, and benefiting as a whole from their religions. There is a tinge of fanaticism in some of the alien religions, but overall faith is treated as a good, strengthening thing (provided pitfalls are avoided). There is a character that becomes an essential religious figure for his race, G'kar, but it is *not* handled in the stereotypical way. If you haven't watched it, find it; watch it; you will not be disappointed. While the effects will obviously be dated, the acting and the writing are some of the best I have ever seen in the science fiction genre. Season 1 can be a bit slow at times but watch through it. You'll be surprised at the details that come back later.
I just wish we'd have gotten Rita as the new companion instead of Clara. But it did handle the idea of faith with respect, and I like that it explored different ways faith can manifest, not just in God.
Thank you for a thoughtful analysis as ever. As a person of faith I wasn't offended by the book, just the trope didn't bring anything new imho. Was interesting to me that this was a 13th Doctor story. I recently read a thought provoking article arguing that she is the most faith inspired of Doctors (not in the sense of any specific religion). Some of the evidence cited was her speech in Demons of the Punjab' on Love ('my faith...love in all it's forms.'..) She also doesn't condemn the faith of the people in Ransoir Av Kovlos when they discover Tim Shaw isn't a God but urges them to travel 'hopefully'. Faith, hope and love. I'd never considered that angle before.
@@julieeverett7442 I'm not denying thay ds9 probably stole ideas from Babylon 5 (though i think it occurred on the executive level that most of the writers and directors and people actually working on ds9 diddnt know about b5), but in terms of just the shows themselves b5 and ds9 only share very superficial similarities. So I object to it being called a knockoff.
Babylon 5 has an episode called "The Parliament of Dreams". In this episode every planet shows its dominant religious believes in a week-long series of festivities. Babylon 5' s go on earths religions is moving and without any condescending connotation. Here is the link to the particular scene: ua-cam.com/video/8Hg_TRynRIs/v-deo.html
Angrykasperle - Johanna Star Trek deep space nine was respectful of the fictional bajoran religion especially as the captain in that series has become a believer by the end.
and Ivanova the 2nd in command is a devout Jew, Stephen is a foundationist. Delenn the Minbari ambassador is a priestess. They made it work it was subtle but there. And faith and religion are two seperate things
In light of this, I'd suggest rewatching the 10th Doctor episode "Gridlock" and focusing on the subjects of faith and religion. After all, you have people trapped underground who have no information about the outside world and get into denial about the surface... but if they didn't keep the faith and stayed united under their belief they would have either torn each other to shreds or released the virus. The rendition of The Old Rugged Cross is heartbreaking.
Wow - as a person of faith myself I found this very refreshing. I have more of a shrug-it-off sort of attitude - just one bothersome niggle I have to suffer thro my own love of sci fi. But thanks for this perspective. I've never shared any of your videos on FB before but I will this one.
That's the kind of attitude I've had to so far--shrug it off, especially since I'm not exactly harassed for my faith where I live. But I felt pretty darn seen and acknowledged, with this video.
8:57 "Why does science fiction have this position that interstellar travel obliterates faith?" "[Astronauts] run the gamut from devout to Atheist, but whatever the personal belief system, space flight tends to reinforce it." - Chris Hadfield, 'An Astronaut's Guide to Life on Earth'
The only time I’ve seen this work was the cold open of Star Trek into Darkness. Simple explanation of why they have the Prime Directive and shows the development in the relationship of the main characters. The natives worshipping the Enterprise simply sets up the recklessness of both Kirk and Spock for the rest of the film.
“No body expects the spa-.... oh right you did do you... sorry il get my coat.” I was brought up semi Church of England but I ended losing faith when I discovered Stephen fry. But there no need to be all high and mighty about it.
THANK YOU! I've been saying this for years and people dont seem to get it. I'm sick of watching my favourite shows and being told I'm stupid because I have faith.
@@CouncilofGeeks Their chief weapon is surprise. Surprise and fear. Their TWO chief weapons are surprise and fear and ruthless efficiency. Their THREE...
Great video as always, but I'd like to take this opportunity to advertise the books written by Brandon Sanderson- specifically his novels set in the Cosmere, or his more adult fantasy novels. They're not technically sci-fi (yet), but they all have excellently nuanced portrayals of a ton of religions, and do a good job explaining both the positives and negatives therein without ever coming off as condescending.
There is a bit more open minded take on religious characters in films like The Fifth Element or Prometheus. In Doctor Who, The Holy Terror comes to my mind as something that critiques aspects of religion without being patronising about it or saying something along the lines of "all religion bad", it has a really nuanced take.
Faith Stealer is another take on religion that while at times critical, is never mean spirited. And while some of the faiths are played for laughs, there's a genuine sense that the Multihaven was an idea that benefitted the people who came there and gave a sense of peace and community.
A couple good examples of faith in sci-fi off the top of my head: *Alien^3: Assembly Cut (like, yes, all of the religious people are convicted criminals, but their faith inspires them to do what they can to better themselves and gives them something to organize around) *Star Trek: Deep Space Nine (I actually never finished this series, but have been meaning to for years, so if this aspect goes off the rails later on, I apologize) *Various points in X-Men stories, namely via Nightcrawler
I really REALLY want to know what you'd make of Small Gods, by Terry Pratchett. It may actually qualify as a different, original take on this trope. The basic idea is right out of Isaac Asimov's Foundation. And there's probably even earlier examples. But historically, visionary scientists didn't see conflict between their work and God. Only that humans interpreted God's word imperfectly, and perfection was found in nature, in the discoveries they made to further human understanding. I think the problem is that faith is too easy for those who have none to manipulate those who possess it. Those manipulated can only be pushed so far for so long, then comes the backlash. And the people who suffered are left feeling abused. So that condescension is perpetuated. But the desire to believe is part of humanity.
"Why does science fiction have this attitude that interstellar travel obliterates faith?" Maybe (this is just spitballin' on my part, mind you) because a lot of the authors who laid down the tropes for modern SF were non-believers. So was Gene Roddenberry, creator of Star Trek, who flat-out told writers on both TOS and TNG that religion in this universe was (for humans) a thing of the past, something they'd evolved past. TNG did an episode following the exact premise you rag on here, in the episode "Who Watches the Watchers?", including a speech to one of the primitive natives by Picard to this exact effect (they dress it up so it's not directly taking down religion, instead making it about "progress", but the mask is paper-thin). I guess this is one reason a lot of people liked DS9 - its take on the Bajoran faith wasn't perfect by any means, but it did show a much higher level of complexity, including showing believers - among them series regular Major Kira Nerys - who *knew* that their "gods" were highly advanced aliens, but that didn't really affect their faith.
I am appreciating you more than ever! I agree with everything you said!! Thank you so much Nathan! Is it Nathan still? I love your thoughtful, insightful and intelligent analysis! Thank you for tackling this issue. You are such a light in what can be a dark and discouraging world of hateful commentary!
Was wondering what you thought of The Face of Evil in the Tom Baker 4th Doctor series, which does involve some of the characteristics you describe when The Doctor returns to a planet he had visited previously. As an historian it's one of my favourite episodes, in no small part due to the introduction of Louise Jamesons companion character Leela, but also due to it's treatment of the way information is passed down through communities over time. Sadly however it does feature some elements of the religious condescention that you mention...
Deep Space Nine is something that shows faith as not being stupid or evil. Probably largely just for the fact that they're Gods are confirmed to be real and active beings though out the show. Another thing that's great about that show is everything.
Thank you for bringing up this point. I have found this insulting for a long time. I find it comparable with the "God/the gods are evil" trope that is so pervasive in fantasy. It's a very juvenile/sophomoric kinda idea that a lot of writers for some reason think is profound.
Doctor Who is all over the gods are evil too, The Satan Pit, Rings of Ahkaten, The God Complex, maybe even The Beast Below, Demons of the Punjab (sort of in reverse), Can you Hear Me? plus all of the times people call the Doctor a god or evil force. There are probably more TV episodes that I can't remember right now either. Maybe the Cybermen in Army of Ghosts and all of the Missy and Matrix Promised Land stuff to? Utopia had the promised land with the toclafane trying to reach this other planet.
Thank you, Nathaniel. I am a person of faith. Generally, I have developed a fairly thick skin about jabs at religion in Sci-fi or other literature or media. Especially since there are many legitimate criticisms to be made about religious organizations and their use of power and influence. But, I do really appreciate when the effort is made to get beyond the easy tropes and have a more thoughtful and balanced representation of faith. The idea that only primitives, imbeciles, or blithely naïve followers would ever have faith is really insulting.
YES! YES! YES! I agree completely. This is the best statement of this point I have come across. I have been a science fiction fan all my life, and have loved Doctor Who since I was three, but this patronising treatment of religious faith in sf in general and Doctor Who in particular (more subtly in some BBC DW and more overtly in some Big FInish) really narks me off. I am a person of faith and I am no genius, but I am not an idiot either. I have worked with academics for over thirty years and know premier scholars who work in philosophy, physics, biology, chemistry, history, psychology, not to mention theology, who are thoughtful religious believers. (And, of course, I know premier scholars in those fields who are not believers in God too.) And this simplistic and patronising treatment of belief in God gets my goat. To me, it reveals a lack of awareness of the sophisticated contributions of religious thinkers to academic thought over the centuries and still today. It is easy to dismiss religion if one is happy to trade in caricatures and such like, but it would be a breath of fresh air to see a fair presentation of intelligent faith. (Babylon 5 and the new Battlestar Galactica were much more interesting on this score in that they do not treat religion as all about pre-scientific ignorance.) Anyway, thank you for this well-observed comment.
I always figured that the point of this trope is the question of how would the natives who lack technology see and understand how someone with more technology can exist. Religion can be a shortcut to try and explain something that your society hasn't reached yet. Just a theory.
If so, then it’s a case of writers not thinking through then implications of the stories they’re telling. And it would still be super over done. And also that’s definitely not the case with this book, it goes heavy into the religious specifics.
Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood does this quite well, although I can see it presenting other issues. In the third episode, it's the usual plot that you're sick of; a religious cult pretend to act as a voice of God, but turns out it's sci-fi shenanigans, the heroes stop him and they tell the village to find their own form of individuality. But it does subvert it later on, when it turns out when the cult was overthrown, the city went into chaos and murdered each other in retaliation, children included. It's a nice subversion and in a way, teaches the main characters that perhaps they shouldn't have intervened considering that the city destroyed itself. Also, God is in the Series being a nice element to talk about in a sci-fi Series, albeit they're very condescending towards characters and the sins that they created, which is different to how God is usually portrayed. I'd maybe recommend checking it out.
Thank you for making a video about this, and even thought you've said that your not a religious person I'm still thankful to you for calling out the way media in general portrays people of faith as either mean, stupid, or both. I just want to say thank you for calling this out
I was raised a Xtian, but about 20+ years ago became an atheist. I like seeing how faith is explored in sci-fi, but I do tend to skew toward pointing out the many flaws in faith. You bring up excellent points, and that is not all people of faith are stupid (one can point out that the definitions of faith and gullible are fairly close, but that's not the point here). There's a really great three part story in season 4 of Enterprise which does a much better job of tackling this subject. If you haven't watched it, I would highly recommend it (it was the season when the writers finally knew what to do with Enterprise). Very well done video. Again, while I don't have as much of an issue with it, I can see where one can be frustrated by that trope. You did bring up Firefly, though, so I wonder what you thought of the scene where River is "correcting" the bible. Classic stuff there.
Well, as a person of faith, I myself don't feel attacked by such plots because I always think of them as being inspired by real-life "Cargo Cults", which arose independently in isolated communities on various islands in the Pacific Ocean after they saw Japanese and American troopers arrive on their islands and how they did all sorts of amazing things and left their cargo and never came back. So, yeah, I feel like this kind of plot taking place in sci-fi is perfectly natural because it's _bound to happen_ in some cases. And as for people abusing faith in order to acquire power and control - I've seen that done in real life so many times that I'm really desensitised to it at this point. But that's just me. And then there's a rather selfish sort of reason for why I don't feel offended by these plots. So long as a work of fiction is not scrutinising Christianity in a broad sense, I am mostly indifferent to that scrutiny of faith. I know that that's really cold of me, but it is the way it is. But naturally I do not wish practioners of those faiths (that is when we're talking about real-life faiths) to be offended by _anything_ and I do not wish for bad stuff to happen to them.
Oh. I've got this book, the premise looked interesting and had heard good things about it so I was looking forward to reading it. I'll read it anyway but I'll keep my expectations in check.
Being raised in a non-Abrahamic faith then becoming more secular, I like when there is science fiction that takes it in a different route. My personal favorites are Anthony Roucher's The Quest for Saint Aquin, Isaac Asimov's the Last Question and Harry Turtledove's Before the Beginning, all short stories but very good.
I appreciated how Mass Effect had characters that had faith and wasn't completely anti-religion (though it didn't help that Ashley, the human theist, was also racist to aliens at first). Though it also did the whole 'aliens landing and being mistaken for gods' with Liara's homeworld.
I really enjoyed this video. That trope is one reason I very rarely read sci-fi (instead option for fantasy, which has its own major issues, but does treat faith with a bit more nuance). I get it, sci-fi authors, you're much better than those of us that find faith In whatever way we do. But portraying faith in such a narrow, limited way, doesn't make you look intellectual. Often I find myself thinking "that is not as profound an idea as the author seems to think," as I'm reading. That is one of those ideas.
As a quite religious person myself I've actually wanted to do a either pro religion or pro respecting religion themed sci fi story/character trait, some of the generalizations like "religion is mutually exclusive with self reliance" or "religious people are all literally the Spanish Inquisition" (like you brought up) are so annoying to see. Honestly a massive W for this vid, watched before but just had to revisit it. Agnostics/atheists having misconceptions about faith isn't just expected, it's understandable, so it's awesome to see someone have this much respect
Criticism of religion can be interesting, but you have to be careful. Not careful to avoid offending people, but careful to avoid boring people. Such an overused trope. I really wanna check out RTD's The Second Coming. It stars Chris Eccleston, and if anyone could do it justice it'd be those two.
If you're interested in a Sci-Fi novel that handles space fairing races that DO have religion, try Calculating God by Robert J Sawyer. Two species working together come to Earth looking for someone to join them on their quest to literally find God, defined as the oldest being in the universe. (And when the aliens land on Earth they deliver the wonderfully cheesy line "Take me to your paleontologist.")
Not gonna lie, this video made me really emotional, and in a good way. I've been a person of faith all my life, and because of that I can't help but feel alienated in many geek spaces. Just once I would love to see a more nuanced take on faith and spirituality in sci-fi, especially from a non-Christian lens. So, thank you for this review. I love hearing you speak about these sorts of things. ♥
I don't have a good one to recommend but I just need to put into words my admiration of the sheer righteous fury presented here because yeah, this trope is awful and it's finally being called out for being condescending. It's weird to me that Doctor Who: a franchise built on kindness, tolerance, and understanding, would do this kind of story. How many times has the show talked about the importance of faith, hope, and optimism in the face of cruelty and corruption? It's genuinely strange to think that this show can even tell this type of story when it feels like it goes against the entire show's MO.
@@TechnicalOtaku ask christans if mulisms are silly or wrong for their beliefs, and they most likely will say yes. Especially if they have a right-wing flavor of Christianity.
This video is everything I didn't know I needed...thank you for such an enlightening view!! I'm new to this channel and I've been binging all of these videos (I've been a huge Whovian for over a decade), and honestly this was just refreshing and wonderful. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! 💖💖💖
When me and my friends wrote a Dr who season, one of the "monsters" was aliens that posed as gods. They fed on the energy of faith but they took the characteristics people believed those gods had. So one of the stories involved the Dr and companions going to a planet where one of these aliens had just landed. (The Dr is Jodie Whittaker and the companions are original ones we made, a ancient Greek philosopher and someone with amnesia who is far too smart to be from ancient Greece where they found him, audience or cast, called Barnabus and Prometheus, Barny and Pro). They land to find a war torn world, about medieval technology where everyone worships different war goddesses that all look similar but have different names, they find out its an alien god who has been there unchallenged for thousands of years, so they go back to when they estimate it landed. They find a tribe who all worship a war god and are going to investigate the meteor (which would imprint their war god on the alien). So they are separated from the Dr and are traveling with this tribe. On their way they start telling the tribe about their god, a healer, speaking of what she has done in the past. They are attacked by a wild animal and a tribe man is injured Prometheus manages to clean and bandage the wound to the point the tribe man can walk again using natural parts of the forest. As they get closer to the god they are attacked again and one of the tribesmen is near dead. (Pro doesn't have enough to heal him there) and so he asks them if he can meet their god before he dies. They continue moving trying to keep this one man alive until the Dr can get there. When they get to the meteor the goddess that steps out isnt dressed in battle armour ready for war, but has a long grey dress with a multicolour stripe as well as a short staff that glows and sings, clearly based on the doctor. She plucks a large leaf from a nearby plant, cups water in it from a nearby stream. They tell the tribe that this is their goddess doctor who lives to heal, teach and protect. Now they know that gods not going to start a massive war in the planets future and having found the doctor by the meteor, they go into the planets future. The future is a massive city, they land in a square outside a hospital which has a giant statue of a goddess they call healer and still worship across the planet. The doctor tells them that faith in this goddess gave the people kindness and a curiosity to learn that made the countries that followed it a utopia with few wars. It ends with the goddess healer appearing, now recognising them for what they did years ago. She gives them each a leaf which when drunk from will heal any injury (once) (its important in a later episode of our plan) and confirms the doctors guess of what happened.
I studied to be a theologian, I believe in the Christian God but one of heroes is Carl Sagan, I know that evolution happened, I know the best theory to the creation of the Universe is the "big bang theory". I get that those of my faith do reject science and I think these stories are a counter to that, but there is middle ground, there is "well I see this but it doesn't change my faith in that" Thank you for bring this to light.
My old science teacher was Christian and didn't tell the class until a few years in. She said she thought God had a hand in starting the universe and then left it all to happen, I don't think anyone asked but she just wanted to let people know. I'm not sure were were taught evolution that year, but she definitely talked about The Big Bang and how she believed that happened.
There are shows like Deep Space Nine and Battlestar Galactica that treat religious characters much more charitably, and even centre the religion of the characters in the plot.
So I get this is how the UA-cam game is played...but I gotta be an ass and complain about it anyway. First off, I agree with you on this point. Religion =/= stupidity. Faith =/= ignorance. And it is a dumb, too frequent trope in science fiction. HOWEVER, this is an argument you could have easily made in five minutes or less. Talking slowly, repeating yourself, stretching it out to 15 minutes, I get it, that's how you play UA-cam. It just felt so noticeable in this video though and got on my nerves a little bit.
To answer your first question: Most Earth religions position our planet as a unique gift from God or The Gods, so the very existence of other populated worlds is at fundamental odds with that. Also, Dune was a very successful series of books... To answer the other question: It’s an accidentally hilarious Hartnell story The Ark, where the Tardis visits the same place twice and their earlier actions have had repercussions. That was in 1966, so, yeah, the trope is beyond stale. Oh, and few weeks earlier, the Doctor been mistaken for Zeus by “primitive minded” (and first companion to face doom) Katarina.
Classic Who does this plot when Leela is introduced as a companion. I think it’s why I haven’t liked Leela yet as a character... I hope my opinion of her will change soon though.
Thank you for this. For someone of Faith to hear this coming from someone who isn't... it's hard to find a word, really. But it matters a lot. On a more positive note, the only show that has taken this trope and successfully and mindfully built a plot around it was Deep Space Nine with the Bajoran religion, and the character of Major Kira especially. It isn't flawless with it and does a lot of questionable stuff (Kai Winn) but it also shows understanding and mindfulness, and even attempts to view it in a positive light (Sisko's POV). (Yes I am shamelessly promoting my favorite show.)
The most recent RED DWARF did exactly this kind of theme with them finding the "Cat" race and a whole religion based around Lister (as he was the one who sneaked his Cat into stasis etc) - its played for laughs though and doesn't attempt a critique as such - more like a Douglas Adams sort of thing where everything is ridiculous when one stops to think about it and actually smaller things that are taken for granted can actually be really huge things in other contexts (Adams with his "mice owned and paid for the Earth" for example and Lister doing something random as a young man being turned into this great big miracle in the scriptures of the Cat race, and him being presented with it)........again I doubt it contradicts what you say here and you are quite correct sir, just perhaps the tone of it, or the emphasis. Frankly I was more happy they managed to capture that energy and feel of the old Red Dwarf than anything else (given that they are older men now and that modern era demands certain darker tones and depressive types of script)
Wow, this isn't even a topic I'd thought much about, so I'm glad to have heard this. How do you think Star Wars fits into this, with Jedi technically being a religion? Because yes, there is something in the original series, with the Ewoks being a naive and childlike race, and automatically worshiping C3PO as a god, but then there's the fact that the thematic conflict is one between two sects of religion
I'm still working trough DeepSpace 9 but it's handling of faith seems to be much more, nuanced, because whilst there are people who are using the faith in the tool of power, one of the major characters, Kira Nerys is actually a deciple of the Bajoran faith and is using that faith as a moral/philosophical guide in her life, and she's not depicted as some zealot but complicated person of which faith is one aspect. That said, I am currently in the middle if season 2 so the show has time to flip on that.
If you do continue reviewing Doctor Who novels, I recommend Touched by an Angel. I only recommend that one to others cause it was my first DW novel. As for this story trope, as someone who is Catholic I was never really bothered with stories like these. Granted, you do make some good points as to how these types of stories can be harmful. But, having said that, I am definitely not a fan of whenever in Sci-Fi or just in fiction in general, whenever they want an intolerant character who hates anything that is not straight, white, or male, they immediately make it a Southern Chrisitan man. Now growing up in the south, obviously (and unfortunately) there are people who are like that, but for every one of them, there's like 10 others who are tolerant of others and respect other's lifestyles. It just bothers me how fictional media continues to push the narrative of the intolerant white Christian man. The funny thing is, I'm Hispanic, so those types of characters being white doesn't bother me, but it's such an easy villain to do that is incredibly repetitive and shows a lack of wanting to delve deeper. It's the same with Nazi's in stories. I like seeing one getting punched as much as the next guy, but it's such an easy villain to do that sometimes indicates a lack of imagination on the writer's part. Sorry for the long rant, I guess I've had these thoughts for a while. Lol
I am a person of faith, and I share your feelings on this trope. I am probably missing out on some otherwise really well done SF/F stories because the use of this trope has turned me off. Thinking of examples where people of faith are depcited in a positive or neutral view is not the easiest thing. Closest I can think of recently is the Danish drama, The Rain, on Netflix. It's apocalyptic, but science-based. One of the survivors, Lea, is depicted as Christian, which is just part of who she is, and her faith does affect her actions in realistic ways. No big deal, just there, and I could very much identify with that.
As a devout pagan and ardent geek, I can only say thank you for this. And yeah, B5 and Battlestar are much better done, and differently enough to make entirely original, worthy contributions to the conversation. I think Star Trek DS9 did well, too, but not nearly as well as those two. Which you really should watch.
Interestingly, there's a First Doctor story that deals with the same premise. It's a TV story called "The Ark." Not the religious angle l, mind you, just the Doctor & co. handle a situation, then return in the future to find their interference has hit the fan
As a person of faith, I tend to have more of a problem with the sort of colonial/White Savior overtones that can creep into these kinds of stories than their criticisms of religion, but I can enjoy this trope when it’s done well with more nuance than just “religion bad/primitive”.
I am so glad you addressed this. I remember almost not continuing Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood because of the religion episode early on in season 1. I almost stopped watching what I consider a masterpiece because of this. It's getting old, and its getting harder and harder to be a man of faith while being a fan of science fiction.
When it comes to Doctor Who, I get why old Who didn’t do romances with the Doctor, but new who at least needs the reference to it, if not done outright, to keep some of the audience engaged. Barely touched upon in the video but wanted to leave my 2 cents on the subject.
Blame Dune because Herbert do it so well. The seeding of prophecies and myths was calculated and done for purely selfish reasons. I don’t think Herbert however looked down on the Fremen.
There's an interesting big finish story called faith stealer that has an incredibly different spin on religion and multi religion environments that's worth a listen.
I just listened to that in my Divergent marathon and I agree, it is worth a listen. That audio is mostly about religious diversity and coexistence. Although one could argue that it is also handling faith and it's importance for a given culture in a very derogatory way because many characters switch religion on a whim and the direct comparison to brainwashing in C'rizz's case when joining that cult 'Church of Lucidity'
It’s no secret that many sci-fi fandoms have fallen short on approaching many thought provoking topics badly or childishly. That said, there was one recent show that did it brilliantly-The Orville. I would LOVE to see you review this show which turned out to be the Star Trek Discovery we wish we’d gotten. 🙏💫
Have you ever watched Battlestar Galactica (the 2004 reboot not the original)? I think it’s one of the few sci-fi shows that treats religion and faith with respect. Also it’s a freaking brilliant show! Love your videos!
Should have waited til the end of the video before I commented!! You literally just mentioned BSG lol. It is a great show if you ever get some time to watch it!
I mean this trope will eventually evolve into 'protagonists will interfere in a primitive society, unknowingly become deities, only for them through some mishap (maybe related to the interference) being shifted millennia in the culture's future to find broadcasts of television shows that are explaining how indigenous, ancient or minority religions and that their megalithic structures were only due to the interference from 'ancient aliens'...with all the insidious dismissiveness such claims tend to have...with the crew trying to explain that those 'ancient aliens' were them and they need the culture's help to get back to their time but finding it hard because no one wants to help them because of the inherent insidious dismissiveness of such claims'.
In terms of something I've recently watched, the TV show _Agents_ _of_ _S.H.I.E.L.D._ has Mack who talks about his Christian faith in numerous episodes (and is currently the director). It's depicted as something admirable, but quite difficult to maintain, living in the world in which he does (for example, the show has interstellar travel, and time travel). You also mention _Battlestar_ _Galactica_ and you should *absolutely* watch this for a nuanced depiction of faith in science fiction! I think some people didn't like how it ended precisely because of its religious elements; I really liked them personally. It you don't want to watch that (for one thing it's really long), you could try the prequel series _Caprica_ which is even more religious. It's still reasonably nuanced overall, but there are elements of depicting religion as evil as well (for example there's a group with some parallels to Al-Qaeda). Regarding other Doctor Who stories taking lazy jabs at religion, _The_ _Rings_ _of_ _Akhaten_ comes to mind as one I've seen relatively recently.
There's been some Rick and Morty episodes in the new season that do this trope but it's mostly done for comedy not for thematic reasons like you talk about in the video. So it's not a good different take on faith but it's not annoying either.
I've for the longest time have thought religion is like a Chinese whisper, the older it claims to be the less likely the original message remains the same. Whatever the true meanings are is eroded by those same groups of people you mentioned. You are right that those who question faith often use the misplaced God plot, it tells you more about the author than the over-used plot itself. If a Thanos clicked religion out of existance what would we all be? I wish this reverse plot was used more often because its by far the most interesting. As far as faith and religion goes, I'm not a believer but will always defend the right to each individuals' belief.
You should watch Star Trek Deep Space Nine. They have a lot of religious characters. And they spend time showing the growing faith of Benjamin Sisko. So Star Trek Deep Space Nine subverts pretty much everything you say in this video. Hopefully that gives you some hope for the genre :)
Excellent video. (I think it would get more views with a different title. “Faith in Science Fiction” “Science fiction’s petty faith tropes,” something like that.)
I kind of wonder if that plotline is in anyway related to the 'mocking fans yet acting as if it's endorsement' that is done more and more often. they share a tone, and the general attitude and idea. Just that with the latter people are being told they are not being mocked.
I haven’t read the book, so can’t comment on its quality. I did find your discussion on the representation of faith in this book, and sf in general, an interesting and valid one. The tropes of the book may be well trod, with countless other examples throughout the genre. However, one important point which I felt needed to be made is that the primary target audience for this series of doctor who novels are preteen and teenagers. That is not to say that interesting, fresh and non-condescending (to use your phrase) approaches can’t be produced for this targeted audience, but given the younger age of the reader they may not have encountered the plot as much.
Interesting to be reminded of how common this has been in science fiction. I used to just think it was a British thing, like, 70% of our population said in the last census that they were Christian, and a large part of the other 30% were other religions, but still it seems many times when I've seen someone speak candidly about having a faith, they've been looked at as if they were mad or delusional. Maybe it's the circles I've run in. I'll freely admit I used to be an asshole atheist to a degree, especially after reading that Dawkins book. Thankfully I learned better when I saw exactly how big an asshole some other atheists were being to people who really didn't deserve it. People who use their religion as an excuse to harm others, they're still very very much fair game as far as I'm concerned, especially with the attacks being launched on LGBT rights by certain wealthy churches. But these days I won't stand for innocent kind-hearted folks being ridiculed just because they have a faith, even if it's one they do share with a bunch of bigots.
I think more people consider themselves Christian but aren't actively practicing and more recent studies show that there are more people considered spiritual or agnostic. You'd also have to allow for parents filling out details for their kids. The country is increasingly shown to be secular. I had the figures more recently, but I don't have them right now. The stats on Wikipedia are from 2015 and over 50% come under "no religion", I'm wondering if that term was used in the census because it seems more inclusive than atheist otr agnostic.
This plot has been done so often that at this point EVERYONE expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Why does sci-fi always do this? Cause it's easy. Depicting a functioning religion is hard. Depicting a functioning religion that isn't obviously Catholicism is really hard. There are so many social and historical factors that go into a real religion developing over time that most writers aren't sure where to start on an alien one, since usually aliens in most sci-fi are stand ins for some social group or issue., and aren't developed beyond that. Making religion dumb is easier. Especially for tv.
Making religion anyting BUT dumb is the challenge. Religion by nature makes no sense and is either depicted as something vile or culturally important, they're either evil or primitive, or both. Scifi tends to be written by fairly bright, well read people and if you're educated you're less likely to be sympathetic religion.
@@aliservan7188 It is indeed the challenge. However, I think the challenge is to not fall into the mindset of making it simplistic. While I agree that religion makes little sense, faith is an important aspect of cultural development, and shouldn't be treated so callously. As I said, having to take into account all the historical and social aspects religion is influenced by, and influences, is a lot of work. Work that tends to challenge the assumptions of the writers if they are to present something that isn't simplistic, and exists only to justify those very assumptions.
Very bright people aren't afraid of having their own mindset challenged. Even by themselves.
Not helped by the behaviors of real life religious institutions. Conservative Catholics and evangelicals have worked very hard to make themselves synonymous with Christianity as a whole. Various dictators have claimed a specific, hardline form of Islam is the one true version and they will enforce it. India’s current government are Hindu nationalist.
None of these people truly speak for people of faith, but they pretend to, with a lot of money, power, and propaganda, so for those on the outside, or those who escaped, that can seem like all religion is.
It is interesting how attempting to create a fictional religion can start to present the flaws and contradictions that exist within real world religions. Once you start writing it and realizing how many systems just aren't making sense both in your own and the real world "references," I can see how it would be very difficult for an educated writer to believe in a religion as well as to make the one they're creating believable.
Not the direction this was headed, but now that I think about it, that sounds like a pretty good exercise for religious people to do to test how their beliefs hold up under a microscope.
@@BlueSparxLPs It's always a good idea to test your beliefs, no matter what they are. That said, I agree, it can be difficult, though not impossible. For instance, I'm very much an atheist, but I respect Buddhist philosophy, and as a fantasy author, routinely create religions and faith based practices for the worlds I create. Knowing the flaws doesn't mean you can't explore the practice of faith thoughtfully.
In fact, within sci-fi, I think there's an argument to be made about highlighting the inherent flaws of religion gone wrong, and the greater role faith can play as a tool for helping people, enhancing society, and creating a better world for everyone.
Honestly, most sci-fi authors can't seem to tell the difference between religion and faith, much less how the two things can be applied for the purpose of social examination, which really is kind of the point of sci-fi in the first place.
Honestly I think Star Trek: Deep Space Nine handled the subject of religion really well. There are people throughout the series who worship The Wormhole Prophets that run the gamut from hypocritical zealots who only use their faith to gain power to genuinely good natured and compassionate people who use their faith as inspiration to be better people. It shows that people of faith are just that: people with diverse opinions and personalities that are informed by their beliefs. And what's more the show never presents anyone as being naive or stupid for believing in The Prophets. They're just shown as having a unique, but ultimately valid, interpretation of a celestial phenomenon. And there are excellent episodes that talk about how faith and science aren't mutually exclusive things.
That's a really good way to handle it, dang
And that's coming from an LDS on a Sunday lol
I was about to comment about DS9 as well
Yeah Kira is a character with faith that isn't treated like a complete idiot. Sure people question her but in an interested rather than condescending way. Babylon 5 is pretty good at this too.
oops, hadn't seen your comment before I made the same points. You said it better though.
You are absolutely right. I remember when Jake tells Sisko about Bajoran beliefs being dumb (or something to that effect) and Sisko gently explaining that they’re not, and that it was their faith that gave the Bajorans the strength to ultimately chase the Cardassians off their world. A great scene.
I’m a Christian and a casual sci-fi fan, and I have religious friends who are more hardcore sci-fi fans themselves. We’ve all complained about the attitude towards faith in most of the genre, the “oh you ignorant backwards sheep, let us save you from your superstitious ways” thing is infuriating. I’m not against fictional critique of religion (including mine), but it should at least be more thoughtful than just taking for granted that an empirical atheistic worldview is obviously THE RIGHT one, and anyone who disagrees is either stupid or bigoted.
I’m glad that a nonreligious person like yourself is willing to call this cliche stuff out. Thank you and have a great day!
I'm trying to think if having faith has actually saved someone in the show? I would have thought therr would be one example because of how many religion based stories there have been, but I can't think of any?
I know I'm 5 months late on this, but as a *inhales* member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (we're supposed to use the full name haha), I think the biggest issue with the whole theme of "rely on your own strength and not religion to just save everything" is that religion isn't supposed to make things easy, it's just supposed to teach you how to handle trials. It's not meant to get rid of trials.
@WiloPolis03 U a mormon?
Well good morning! As a open minded pastor who very much understands and struggles with the negative ways religion can influence people, societal issues, politics and beyond, its refreshing to hear your perspective. Thank you Nathaniel. From my little corner of the universe i strive to encourage, open mindedness, freedom, critical thinking, acceptance and societal change based on inclusivity and love. Its hard, lonely and often unrewarded but necessary. I will never be another cog in the machine of faith based hatred and exclusion. Not all religions are like that. Thank you for this early Sunday morning gift.
Religions change their traits because of people like you, keep it up!
Hi! I'm a Christian too! Nice to see you 😊
Where two or three of us are gathered, hey? :) I strive for the same things as a lay member of my congregation (okay, I'm a deacon, but like... absolutely a layperson). I'm also a writer, but I haven't delved into writing science fiction yet. I'm definitely keeping this troubling depiction of religion in mind, should I ever explore that in my writing!
I'm also Christian. Excellent comment.
I have an even bigger issue with the "worldhopper seen as a God" sci-fi trope: it's based on the old Enlightenment era myths of, say, Captain Cook going to the Hawaiian islands and being thought of as a God (which is not how it happened, but it's still how it's taught in western countries). I don't care about shitting on religion, but I do care about perpetuating colonialist myths and models of thinking. That's personally why I find that particular trope so lazy. It's condescending, dehumanizing, infantilizing in all of the ways colonialism is.
Also Cortés! I was studying some Latin American history and it turns out the idea that the Spanish were seen as Gods is a later addition to make the Aztecs basically seem stupid and the Spanish seem more powerful to the "warrior race".
The Aztecs were great fighters, but the idea that they mighr have thought the Spanish were gods was because on first meeting another powerful figure they traditionally offer them a lot and tried to get the Spanish to leave by giving them lots of gifts originally.
The accounts of the place they visited before going to Tenochtitlan was about how they taught the people about Catholicism and one writer said that since many women were slaves, they could accept the Virgin as a mother figure more than the traditional fertility gods. The religions were also already a mix of religions, so to them, they may just have been accepting another goddess they happened to like.
@@Char10tti3 Thank you for sharing your knowledge! That's a very interesting example as well.
I think The Face of Evil is a good exploration of religion and blind worship from Classic Who, and it's very nuanced in its approach. Also, for a positive take on religion, The Curse of Fenric is a great example. Haven't read this book yet but I've always found the concept to be a decent one- Jaynestown from Firefly is another interesting take on this kind of story (just caught the bit where you mention it and whilst I agree it's one of the weaker episodes Shepherd Book is such a good take on a religious character I think it balances out a bit)
I was gonna recommend Face of Evil. Actually, the companion who joins the Doctor in the TARDIS at the end of this episode is one of my favorites. I think she has a nicely paced character arc, and it is one of balancing a faith and culture she was raised in with a growing appreciation of science.
Shepard Book was a great representation. It was clear he had a different past. My favorite quote:
Zoe: Preacher, don’t the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killin’?
Book: Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps.
Except of course the discussion of faith in Curse of Fenric is to explain why crucifixes would work to repel vampires if Christianity is false; i.e. it is not the cross they fear but the focus of faith through it, and therefore a hammer and sickle will be just as effective if the wielder is a Soviet Communist. Similarly Gridlock is positive about the concept of a "useful lie" being more beneficial than the truth. I don't think religion as a useful lie is really the kind of respect religious people want. They don't see the object of their faith as "a useful lie", they see it as the truth. Perhaps the most respectful towards religious people is Kinda and Snakedance.
I'm kind of surprised COG thinks he hasn't seen the treatment of the religious as dupes and charlatans in classic Who - The Aztecs, The Mythmakers, The Daemons, Curse of Peladon, Face of Evil (as you mention), Brain of Morbius (arguably, the sacred flame is not magical - it's just a gas), Power of Kroll, Horns of Nimon, Meglos, Masque of Mandragora. "He/she's not the messiah/god/devil/prophet, he's a very naughty alien" is a fairly regular plot throughout Doctor Who. And I don't really see how, in a multicultural society, any show could really do any differently and not wind up more excluding, rather than more inclusive, except by leaving it a mystery (as it is in Kinda and Snakedance), because if any religion was established to be true it would tacitly imply that all other religions were untrue. Bram Stoker's vampire lore is so steeped in Catholicism it can barely function in a world where Catholicism isn't assumed to be the true faith; something more recent treatments of the vampire legend have had to struggle to rationalize.
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Yes, a story could feature an intelligent religious person whose beliefs are respected, but only if the truth behind their beliefs remains undiscussed. The muslim character in The God Complex can talk about her beliefs about Hell but it can't offer an explanation of the validity of the belief because to do so would exclude either Muslims or every non-Muslim. At least if a fictional religion is demonstrated to be based on misinterpretation, misunderstanding and chinese whispers no one needs to be hurt because it won't necessarily be referring to their religion, just to everyone else's - in fact every religious person believes adherents of other religions to be in some way dupes or charlatans because all religions are essentially supremacist, so a story in which a religion is shown to be made up of dupes and charlatans misunderstanding an historic event is accessible to everyone regardless of their religion, but one in which a religion is shown to be true would only be accessible to those who are not devout in any. Obviously Star Wars is a franchise in which a religion is shown to be factual (sort of, although bear in mind in The Last Jedi Luke burns the holy books to the approval of Yoda's ghost. Solo may have been wrong to believe the Jedi beliefs were baseless, but it transpires that Luke was also wrong to believe the Jedi beliefs were fact), as a result there are whole tracts written about why Star Wars is inconsistent with Christianity. You can tell a hundred and one stories about religions that turn out to be fake and a religious person will not be offended because surely you don't mean their religion (unless you very blatantly do, as with Michael Moorcock's "Behold The Man") but if you write one in which a religion turns out to be true you require them to suspend their disbelief (belief requires disbelief in the alternatives) for the duration of entertaining the story.
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Even, Chronicles of Narnia, which is allegorically a Christian story (C.S. Lewis was a clergyman and theologist), contradicts Christianity if it is taken literally rather than allegorically. That classic Star Trek story set on a world where the Roman empire never fell is practically proselytyzing as it is revealed, bu Uhura, that the Sun-Worshippers persecuted by the Roman regime, are not SUN-worshippers at all, but SON-worshippers; it's a weird twist because it doesn't explain anything, and for an audience to think it does relies on the, believing some religions are more primitive than others, specifically sun-worshipping religions are more primitive than son of god worshipping religions - it is singly the most Christian supremacist Star Trek story in the entire canon.
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In brief, if you depict religion at all you have three options, it is false, in which case the followers are dupes and charlatans, it's a mystery in which case they may be dupes and charlatans but instead they are spookily wise, or their religion is true. Of these three the one most likely to offend religious people is the latter, because religious people have a religion and being told other religions are fake is exactly what they believe, but being told other religions are real is contrary to their beliefs. I think COG is making the error of being offended on behalf of the unoffended.
***
I suppose if I was to balance the books, something that I'd like to see tackled, because it is very current, is dogma masquerading as science - that is a society where something untrue is believed, but they declare it to be "settled science" and consider any who dispute it to be "science deniers"! That trend in modern discourse, the post-religious religion, is deserving of some serious satirical take down. It is touched on occasionally in classic Who; in Genesis of the Daleks it is the consensus of the scientists on Skaro is that it is impossible for other worlds to sustain life, similar themes in other SF franchises might include Planet of the Apes in which Dotor Saius' belief that humans could never learn to think rationally as apes do is not religious dogma but science dogma - in the novel he (or his counterpart - I don't recall if he is named Saius in the novel) claims that the unfamiliarity with tree climbing renders humans incapable of conceptualizing 3-dimensional space, which satirizes Evolutionary Psychological just-so stories that justified beliefs in the inferiority of blacks during the era of slavery. Zira and Cornelius are not just heretics against ape religion but against the consensus of the ape scientific community. At least that would demonstrate a balance to show that dogma is equally arrogant (one could even say hubristic) and faith equally foolish whether it is theistic or theoretical.
@@markpostgate2551 As a Christian myself, your points are very interesting. I would strongly disagree, though, with your 3 options for writers who include religious people in their stories - I think there's a very straightforward fourth option, which is to include religious people as they are in real life - not as mysterious beings with strange abilities, not as indoctrinated idiots and not as people who've got everything right! Rather, as people who earnestly seek truth and believe themselves to have found it! In real life, there is no simple 'gotcha' answer to religion - no straightforward resolution to someone's story, so just depict people as they are
I had an idea for a plot where the Doctor lands on a planet where the main religion revolves around The Master. And everyone refuses to talk to her because the people of the planet demonize The Doctor. The religion only exists because The Master is manipulating the people on the planet.
This basically already happened in the Big Finish story The Destination Wars. It's a pretty good story, I'd recommend checking it out
I love, it!
This is one (of many) reasons why I live Babylon 5: aliens have their own faiths, as do humans, and they're ALL treated with respect.
Passing Thru Gethsemane is probably the best example of where B5 showed religion in a respectful light.
Which is interesting seeing that JMS is an atheist.
I was going to say this myself.
The only issue I had with religion in B5 was that basically each of the races had a singular religion, and then in the episode where each race showed off their religion, it ended with "Look at all the different beliefs humans have!" It's frustrating to me when every other culture but human is shown to be monolithic.
@@LorathZ even there, B5 is better than most. It's easy to miss because the Minbari religion is so centered, and their uniformity actually makes sense within the world building. But the Narn mention having many belief systems several times, which seems to be reflected in the structure of their names, and the Centauri are polytheistic, which tends to result in a multitude of sects.
Honestly as a liberal Catholic (in a ware of the contradiction, leave me alone) I hate how most Sci-Fi handles religion (except Trek they tend to handle it well). I honestly get so annoyed at how religious people are treated.
Try reading the Dresden Files by Jim Butcher. Starting with "Grave Peril" there is a major character who's deeply religious, and it's shown to be as much of a strength for him as Harry Dresden's magic is for him. The whole series is fabulous for many, many reasons, but his respectful depiction of religion is one of the best!
Thank you for mentioning Babylon 5. The depiction of religion in that series holds up to this day. There's a spectacular secondary storyline in S1E5, The Parliament of Dreams, that covers the "predominant religion" of each of the primary worlds. How they handle Earth is amazing. They also have a created human religion called "Foundationism" which was formed in the timeline when the human race met aliens for the first time and has the principle that God is too big to be defined by words and that the closer one gets to defining God, the further away it gets. Sinclair was a Jesuit, Ivanova was Jewish, and both were shown with their religion central to who they are, not shaken even when revelations are made about the Vorlon race, and benefiting as a whole from their religions. There is a tinge of fanaticism in some of the alien religions, but overall faith is treated as a good, strengthening thing (provided pitfalls are avoided). There is a character that becomes an essential religious figure for his race, G'kar, but it is *not* handled in the stereotypical way.
If you haven't watched it, find it; watch it; you will not be disappointed. While the effects will obviously be dated, the acting and the writing are some of the best I have ever seen in the science fiction genre. Season 1 can be a bit slow at times but watch through it. You'll be surprised at the details that come back later.
I liked how The God Complex handled faith. But I’m not a person of faith so don’t listen to me haha
I wish they'd replaced Islam with a space-religion but it was pretty good.
I just wish we'd have gotten Rita as the new companion instead of Clara. But it did handle the idea of faith with respect, and I like that it explored different ways faith can manifest, not just in God.
@@maurinet2291 TBF having Rita survive would kinda mitigate the tragedy of the story but she would definitely have been far better than Clara.
Thank you for a thoughtful analysis as ever. As a person of faith I wasn't offended by the book, just the trope didn't bring anything new imho. Was interesting to me that this was a 13th Doctor story. I recently read a thought provoking article arguing that she is the most faith inspired of Doctors (not in the sense of any specific religion). Some of the evidence cited was her speech in Demons of the Punjab' on Love ('my faith...love in all it's forms.'..) She also doesn't condemn the faith of the people in Ransoir Av Kovlos when they discover Tim Shaw isn't a God but urges them to travel 'hopefully'. Faith, hope and love. I'd never considered that angle before.
Can you hear me had a very faith heavy story too, I can't remember exactly what she said about the gods though
Now you make me want to write a sci-fi that features a positive application of religion lol. I dislike the "religion is bad" trope as well.
go watch babylon5 or the babylon5 star trek knock off deep space 9, both do it quite well
It's just cheap. Cheap and dull.
Season three of, The Expanse had a pretty decent representation of faith with the Pastor Anna character.
@@nightowl8477 you are everywhere hahq
@@julieeverett7442 I'm not denying thay ds9 probably stole ideas from Babylon 5 (though i think it occurred on the executive level that most of the writers and directors and people actually working on ds9 diddnt know about b5), but in terms of just the shows themselves b5 and ds9 only share very superficial similarities. So I object to it being called a knockoff.
Babylon 5 has an episode called "The Parliament of Dreams". In this episode every planet shows its dominant religious believes in a week-long series of festivities. Babylon 5' s go on earths religions is moving and without any condescending connotation.
Here is the link to the particular scene: ua-cam.com/video/8Hg_TRynRIs/v-deo.html
Babylon 5 is probably pretty much alone in its respect of Aliens/Humans of Faith.
Angrykasperle - Johanna Star Trek deep space nine was respectful of the fictional bajoran religion especially as the captain in that series has become a believer by the end.
And additionally there are several main characters (human and Alien) who have a close and sometimes shifting relationship to faith in different ways.
and Ivanova the 2nd in command is a devout Jew, Stephen is a foundationist. Delenn the Minbari ambassador is a priestess. They made it work it was subtle but there. And faith and religion are two seperate things
YES! WHich is why babylon 5 is the greatest scifi show ever written 😁
In light of this, I'd suggest rewatching the 10th Doctor episode "Gridlock" and focusing on the subjects of faith and religion. After all, you have people trapped underground who have no information about the outside world and get into denial about the surface... but if they didn't keep the faith and stayed united under their belief they would have either torn each other to shreds or released the virus. The rendition of The Old Rugged Cross is heartbreaking.
I think the song is Abide with Me, but yes, it's achingly beautiful.
Wow - as a person of faith myself I found this very refreshing. I have more of a shrug-it-off sort of attitude - just one bothersome niggle I have to suffer thro my own love of sci fi. But thanks for this perspective. I've never shared any of your videos on FB before but I will this one.
That's the kind of attitude I've had to so far--shrug it off, especially since I'm not exactly harassed for my faith where I live. But I felt pretty darn seen and acknowledged, with this video.
8:57 "Why does science fiction have this position that interstellar travel obliterates faith?"
"[Astronauts] run the gamut from devout to Atheist, but whatever the personal belief system, space flight tends to reinforce it." - Chris Hadfield, 'An Astronaut's Guide to Life on Earth'
The only time I’ve seen this work was the cold open of Star Trek into Darkness. Simple explanation of why they have the Prime Directive and shows the development in the relationship of the main characters. The natives worshipping the Enterprise simply sets up the recklessness of both Kirk and Spock for the rest of the film.
“No body expects the spa-.... oh right you did do you... sorry il get my coat.”
I was brought up semi Church of England but I ended losing faith when I discovered Stephen fry. But there no need to be all high and mighty about it.
THANK YOU! I've been saying this for years and people dont seem to get it.
I'm sick of watching my favourite shows and being told I'm stupid because I have faith.
Faith doesn't have to be relegated to religion. Most people seem to just leave it there though.
Wow. When I clicked onto this video, I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!
Nobody does.
@@CouncilofGeeks And now for something completely different....
@@CouncilofGeeks Their chief weapon is surprise. Surprise and fear. Their TWO chief weapons are surprise and fear and ruthless efficiency. Their THREE...
Ximenez: "Fetch...THE COMFY CHAIR!"
Weeping Angels: "We have no need of comfy chairs."
@@HereComesPopoBawa You made them say "comfy chair"!
Paused this at 2:17 because the plot sounded very familiar. Reminds me a lot of The Ark (with the first Doctor).
8:52 Whom nobody expects
Thanks for sticking up for us, man.
Great video as always, but I'd like to take this opportunity to advertise the books written by Brandon Sanderson- specifically his novels set in the Cosmere, or his more adult fantasy novels. They're not technically sci-fi (yet), but they all have excellently nuanced portrayals of a ton of religions, and do a good job explaining both the positives and negatives therein without ever coming off as condescending.
There is a bit more open minded take on religious characters in films like The Fifth Element or Prometheus. In Doctor Who, The Holy Terror comes to my mind as something that critiques aspects of religion without being patronising about it or saying something along the lines of "all religion bad", it has a really nuanced take.
Faith Stealer is another take on religion that while at times critical, is never mean spirited. And while some of the faiths are played for laughs, there's a genuine sense that the Multihaven was an idea that benefitted the people who came there and gave a sense of peace and community.
“Nobody expects The Spanish Inquisition!”
A couple good examples of faith in sci-fi off the top of my head:
*Alien^3: Assembly Cut (like, yes, all of the religious people are convicted criminals, but their faith inspires them to do what they can to better themselves and gives them something to organize around)
*Star Trek: Deep Space Nine (I actually never finished this series, but have been meaning to for years, so if this aspect goes off the rails later on, I apologize)
*Various points in X-Men stories, namely via Nightcrawler
Deep Space Nine is actually a very good example of religion seen very realistically.
Quick question: what is your opinion as the idea of the force in Star Wars as a religion/ faith compared to the other depictions of faith in Sci Fi?
I really REALLY want to know what you'd make of Small Gods, by Terry Pratchett. It may actually qualify as a different, original take on this trope.
The basic idea is right out of Isaac Asimov's Foundation. And there's probably even earlier examples. But historically, visionary scientists didn't see conflict between their work and God. Only that humans interpreted God's word imperfectly, and perfection was found in nature, in the discoveries they made to further human understanding. I think the problem is that faith is too easy for those who have none to manipulate those who possess it. Those manipulated can only be pushed so far for so long, then comes the backlash. And the people who suffered are left feeling abused. So that condescension is perpetuated. But the desire to believe is part of humanity.
I will always recommend Small Gods by Terry Pratchett, it is one of the most humanistic and respectful takes on religion.
"Why does science fiction have this attitude that interstellar travel obliterates faith?"
Maybe (this is just spitballin' on my part, mind you) because a lot of the authors who laid down the tropes for modern SF were non-believers. So was Gene Roddenberry, creator of Star Trek, who flat-out told writers on both TOS and TNG that religion in this universe was (for humans) a thing of the past, something they'd evolved past. TNG did an episode following the exact premise you rag on here, in the episode "Who Watches the Watchers?", including a speech to one of the primitive natives by Picard to this exact effect (they dress it up so it's not directly taking down religion, instead making it about "progress", but the mask is paper-thin). I guess this is one reason a lot of people liked DS9 - its take on the Bajoran faith wasn't perfect by any means, but it did show a much higher level of complexity, including showing believers - among them series regular Major Kira Nerys - who *knew* that their "gods" were highly advanced aliens, but that didn't really affect their faith.
I am appreciating you more than ever! I agree with everything you said!! Thank you so much Nathan! Is it Nathan still? I love your thoughtful, insightful and intelligent analysis! Thank you for tackling this issue. You are such a light in what can be a dark and discouraging world of hateful commentary!
Nathaniel actually. Also thanks.
Was wondering what you thought of The Face of Evil in the Tom Baker 4th Doctor series, which does involve some of the characteristics you describe when The Doctor returns to a planet he had visited previously. As an historian it's one of my favourite episodes, in no small part due to the introduction of Louise Jamesons companion character Leela, but also due to it's treatment of the way information is passed down through communities over time. Sadly however it does feature some elements of the religious condescention that you mention...
Deep Space Nine is something that shows faith as not being stupid or evil. Probably largely just for the fact that they're Gods are confirmed to be real and active beings though out the show.
Another thing that's great about that show is everything.
Couldn't agree more. Appreciate your saying this. Historical, particularly medieval, fiction suffers from similar tiresome tropes.
Thank you for bringing up this point. I have found this insulting for a long time. I find it comparable with the "God/the gods are evil" trope that is so pervasive in fantasy. It's a very juvenile/sophomoric kinda idea that a lot of writers for some reason think is profound.
Doctor Who is all over the gods are evil too, The Satan Pit, Rings of Ahkaten, The God Complex, maybe even The Beast Below, Demons of the Punjab (sort of in reverse), Can you Hear Me? plus all of the times people call the Doctor a god or evil force. There are probably more TV episodes that I can't remember right now either. Maybe the Cybermen in Army of Ghosts and all of the Missy and Matrix Promised Land stuff to? Utopia had the promised land with the toclafane trying to reach this other planet.
Thank you, Nathaniel. I am a person of faith. Generally, I have developed a fairly thick skin about jabs at religion in Sci-fi or other literature or media. Especially since there are many legitimate criticisms to be made about religious organizations and their use of power and influence. But, I do really appreciate when the effort is made to get beyond the easy tropes and have a more thoughtful and balanced representation of faith. The idea that only primitives, imbeciles, or blithely naïve followers would ever have faith is really insulting.
YES! YES! YES! I agree completely. This is the best statement of this point I have come across. I have been a science fiction fan all my life, and have loved Doctor Who since I was three, but this patronising treatment of religious faith in sf in general and Doctor Who in particular (more subtly in some BBC DW and more overtly in some Big FInish) really narks me off. I am a person of faith and I am no genius, but I am not an idiot either. I have worked with academics for over thirty years and know premier scholars who work in philosophy, physics, biology, chemistry, history, psychology, not to mention theology, who are thoughtful religious believers. (And, of course, I know premier scholars in those fields who are not believers in God too.) And this simplistic and patronising treatment of belief in God gets my goat. To me, it reveals a lack of awareness of the sophisticated contributions of religious thinkers to academic thought over the centuries and still today. It is easy to dismiss religion if one is happy to trade in caricatures and such like, but it would be a breath of fresh air to see a fair presentation of intelligent faith. (Babylon 5 and the new Battlestar Galactica were much more interesting on this score in that they do not treat religion as all about pre-scientific ignorance.) Anyway, thank you for this well-observed comment.
I always figured that the point of this trope is the question of how would the natives who lack technology see and understand how someone with more technology can exist. Religion can be a shortcut to try and explain something that your society hasn't reached yet.
Just a theory.
If so, then it’s a case of writers not thinking through then implications of the stories they’re telling. And it would still be super over done. And also that’s definitely not the case with this book, it goes heavy into the religious specifics.
I liked this book fine. But I guess I've maybe run into this trope few enough times that it doesn't irk me so much.
Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood does this quite well, although I can see it presenting other issues. In the third episode, it's the usual plot that you're sick of; a religious cult pretend to act as a voice of God, but turns out it's sci-fi shenanigans, the heroes stop him and they tell the village to find their own form of individuality. But it does subvert it later on, when it turns out when the cult was overthrown, the city went into chaos and murdered each other in retaliation, children included. It's a nice subversion and in a way, teaches the main characters that perhaps they shouldn't have intervened considering that the city destroyed itself. Also, God is in the Series being a nice element to talk about in a sci-fi Series, albeit they're very condescending towards characters and the sins that they created, which is different to how God is usually portrayed. I'd maybe recommend checking it out.
Thank you for making a video about this, and even thought you've said that your not a religious person I'm still thankful to you for calling out the way media in general portrays people of faith as either mean, stupid, or both. I just want to say thank you for calling this out
I was raised a Xtian, but about 20+ years ago became an atheist. I like seeing how faith is explored in sci-fi, but I do tend to skew toward pointing out the many flaws in faith. You bring up excellent points, and that is not all people of faith are stupid (one can point out that the definitions of faith and gullible are fairly close, but that's not the point here). There's a really great three part story in season 4 of Enterprise which does a much better job of tackling this subject. If you haven't watched it, I would highly recommend it (it was the season when the writers finally knew what to do with Enterprise). Very well done video. Again, while I don't have as much of an issue with it, I can see where one can be frustrated by that trope.
You did bring up Firefly, though, so I wonder what you thought of the scene where River is "correcting" the bible. Classic stuff there.
Well, as a person of faith, I myself don't feel attacked by such plots because I always think of them as being inspired by real-life "Cargo Cults", which arose independently in isolated communities on various islands in the Pacific Ocean after they saw Japanese and American troopers arrive on their islands and how they did all sorts of amazing things and left their cargo and never came back. So, yeah, I feel like this kind of plot taking place in sci-fi is perfectly natural because it's _bound to happen_ in some cases.
And as for people abusing faith in order to acquire power and control - I've seen that done in real life so many times that I'm really desensitised to it at this point. But that's just me.
And then there's a rather selfish sort of reason for why I don't feel offended by these plots. So long as a work of fiction is not scrutinising Christianity in a broad sense, I am mostly indifferent to that scrutiny of faith. I know that that's really cold of me, but it is the way it is. But naturally I do not wish practioners of those faiths (that is when we're talking about real-life faiths) to be offended by _anything_ and I do not wish for bad stuff to happen to them.
Oh. I've got this book, the premise looked interesting and had heard good things about it so I was looking forward to reading it. I'll read it anyway but I'll keep my expectations in check.
Being raised in a non-Abrahamic faith then becoming more secular, I like when there is science fiction that takes it in a different route. My personal favorites are Anthony Roucher's The Quest for Saint Aquin, Isaac Asimov's the Last Question and Harry Turtledove's Before the Beginning, all short stories but very good.
I appreciated how Mass Effect had characters that had faith and wasn't completely anti-religion (though it didn't help that Ashley, the human theist, was also racist to aliens at first). Though it also did the whole 'aliens landing and being mistaken for gods' with Liara's homeworld.
I really enjoyed this video. That trope is one reason I very rarely read sci-fi (instead option for fantasy, which has its own major issues, but does treat faith with a bit more nuance). I get it, sci-fi authors, you're much better than those of us that find faith In whatever way we do. But portraying faith in such a narrow, limited way, doesn't make you look intellectual. Often I find myself thinking "that is not as profound an idea as the author seems to think," as I'm reading. That is one of those ideas.
As a quite religious person myself I've actually wanted to do a either pro religion or pro respecting religion themed sci fi story/character trait, some of the generalizations like "religion is mutually exclusive with self reliance" or "religious people are all literally the Spanish Inquisition" (like you brought up) are so annoying to see.
Honestly a massive W for this vid, watched before but just had to revisit it. Agnostics/atheists having misconceptions about faith isn't just expected, it's understandable, so it's awesome to see someone have this much respect
Criticism of religion can be interesting, but you have to be careful. Not careful to avoid offending people, but careful to avoid boring people. Such an overused trope.
I really wanna check out RTD's The Second Coming. It stars Chris Eccleston, and if anyone could do it justice it'd be those two.
Thanks for the reminder, Second Coming was amazing!
If you're interested in a Sci-Fi novel that handles space fairing races that DO have religion, try Calculating God by Robert J Sawyer. Two species working together come to Earth looking for someone to join them on their quest to literally find God, defined as the oldest being in the universe. (And when the aliens land on Earth they deliver the wonderfully cheesy line "Take me to your paleontologist.")
Not gonna lie, this video made me really emotional, and in a good way. I've been a person of faith all my life, and because of that I can't help but feel alienated in many geek spaces. Just once I would love to see a more nuanced take on faith and spirituality in sci-fi, especially from a non-Christian lens.
So, thank you for this review. I love hearing you speak about these sorts of things. ♥
I don't have a good one to recommend but I just need to put into words my admiration of the sheer righteous fury presented here because yeah, this trope is awful and it's finally being called out for being condescending. It's weird to me that Doctor Who: a franchise built on kindness, tolerance, and understanding, would do this kind of story. How many times has the show talked about the importance of faith, hope, and optimism in the face of cruelty and corruption? It's genuinely strange to think that this show can even tell this type of story when it feels like it goes against the entire show's MO.
We have several religions on this planet. The idea of a religion being the wrong one is not an idea scifi invented.
It's just that sci-fi always treats it wrong and treats the people silly for believing it in the first place
@@TechnicalOtaku ask christans if mulisms are silly or wrong for their beliefs, and they most likely will say yes. Especially if they have a right-wing flavor of Christianity.
@@hexogramd8430 I'm Christian and I dont believe Muslims or any other religion is silly or wrong. It's just a different perspective or upbringing
This video is everything I didn't know I needed...thank you for such an enlightening view!! I'm new to this channel and I've been binging all of these videos (I've been a huge Whovian for over a decade), and honestly this was just refreshing and wonderful. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! 💖💖💖
This actually made me tear up...as a man of science and faith this hit home. Thank you for this videp
When me and my friends wrote a Dr who season, one of the "monsters" was aliens that posed as gods. They fed on the energy of faith but they took the characteristics people believed those gods had. So one of the stories involved the Dr and companions going to a planet where one of these aliens had just landed. (The Dr is Jodie Whittaker and the companions are original ones we made, a ancient Greek philosopher and someone with amnesia who is far too smart to be from ancient Greece where they found him, audience or cast, called Barnabus and Prometheus, Barny and Pro). They land to find a war torn world, about medieval technology where everyone worships different war goddesses that all look similar but have different names, they find out its an alien god who has been there unchallenged for thousands of years, so they go back to when they estimate it landed. They find a tribe who all worship a war god and are going to investigate the meteor (which would imprint their war god on the alien). So they are separated from the Dr and are traveling with this tribe. On their way they start telling the tribe about their god, a healer, speaking of what she has done in the past. They are attacked by a wild animal and a tribe man is injured Prometheus manages to clean and bandage the wound to the point the tribe man can walk again using natural parts of the forest. As they get closer to the god they are attacked again and one of the tribesmen is near dead. (Pro doesn't have enough to heal him there) and so he asks them if he can meet their god before he dies. They continue moving trying to keep this one man alive until the Dr can get there. When they get to the meteor the goddess that steps out isnt dressed in battle armour ready for war, but has a long grey dress with a multicolour stripe as well as a short staff that glows and sings, clearly based on the doctor. She plucks a large leaf from a nearby plant, cups water in it from a nearby stream. They tell the tribe that this is their goddess doctor who lives to heal, teach and protect. Now they know that gods not going to start a massive war in the planets future and having found the doctor by the meteor, they go into the planets future. The future is a massive city, they land in a square outside a hospital which has a giant statue of a goddess they call healer and still worship across the planet. The doctor tells them that faith in this goddess gave the people kindness and a curiosity to learn that made the countries that followed it a utopia with few wars. It ends with the goddess healer appearing, now recognising them for what they did years ago. She gives them each a leaf which when drunk from will heal any injury (once) (its important in a later episode of our plan) and confirms the doctors guess of what happened.
I studied to be a theologian, I believe in the Christian God but one of heroes is Carl Sagan, I know that evolution happened, I know the best theory to the creation of the Universe is the "big bang theory". I get that those of my faith do reject science and I think these stories are a counter to that, but there is middle ground, there is "well I see this but it doesn't change my faith in that" Thank you for bring this to light.
My old science teacher was Christian and didn't tell the class until a few years in. She said she thought God had a hand in starting the universe and then left it all to happen, I don't think anyone asked but she just wanted to let people know. I'm not sure were were taught evolution that year, but she definitely talked about The Big Bang and how she believed that happened.
There are shows like Deep Space Nine and Battlestar Galactica that treat religious characters much more charitably, and even centre the religion of the characters in the plot.
So I get this is how the UA-cam game is played...but I gotta be an ass and complain about it anyway. First off, I agree with you on this point. Religion =/= stupidity. Faith =/= ignorance. And it is a dumb, too frequent trope in science fiction. HOWEVER, this is an argument you could have easily made in five minutes or less. Talking slowly, repeating yourself, stretching it out to 15 minutes, I get it, that's how you play UA-cam. It just felt so noticeable in this video though and got on my nerves a little bit.
To answer your first question: Most Earth religions position our planet as a unique gift from God or The Gods, so the very existence of other populated worlds is at fundamental odds with that. Also, Dune was a very successful series of books...
To answer the other question: It’s an accidentally hilarious Hartnell story The Ark, where the Tardis visits the same place twice and their earlier actions have had repercussions. That was in 1966, so, yeah, the trope is beyond stale. Oh, and few weeks earlier, the Doctor been mistaken for Zeus by “primitive minded” (and first companion to face doom) Katarina.
Classic Who does this plot when Leela is introduced as a companion. I think it’s why I haven’t liked Leela yet as a character... I hope my opinion of her will change soon though.
Thank you for this. For someone of Faith to hear this coming from someone who isn't... it's hard to find a word, really. But it matters a lot.
On a more positive note, the only show that has taken this trope and successfully and mindfully built a plot around it was Deep Space Nine with the Bajoran religion, and the character of Major Kira especially. It isn't flawless with it and does a lot of questionable stuff (Kai Winn) but it also shows understanding and mindfulness, and even attempts to view it in a positive light (Sisko's POV). (Yes I am shamelessly promoting my favorite show.)
The most recent RED DWARF did exactly this kind of theme with them finding the "Cat" race and a whole religion based around Lister (as he was the one who sneaked his Cat into stasis etc) - its played for laughs though and doesn't attempt a critique as such - more like a Douglas Adams sort of thing where everything is ridiculous when one stops to think about it and actually smaller things that are taken for granted can actually be really huge things in other contexts (Adams with his "mice owned and paid for the Earth" for example and Lister doing something random as a young man being turned into this great big miracle in the scriptures of the Cat race, and him being presented with it)........again I doubt it contradicts what you say here and you are quite correct sir, just perhaps the tone of it, or the emphasis. Frankly I was more happy they managed to capture that energy and feel of the old Red Dwarf than anything else (given that they are older men now and that modern era demands certain darker tones and depressive types of script)
Wow, this isn't even a topic I'd thought much about, so I'm glad to have heard this. How do you think Star Wars fits into this, with Jedi technically being a religion? Because yes, there is something in the original series, with the Ewoks being a naive and childlike race, and automatically worshiping C3PO as a god, but then there's the fact that the thematic conflict is one between two sects of religion
I'm still working trough DeepSpace 9 but it's handling of faith seems to be much more, nuanced, because whilst there are people who are using the faith in the tool of power, one of the major characters, Kira Nerys is actually a deciple of the Bajoran faith and is using that faith as a moral/philosophical guide in her life, and she's not depicted as some zealot but complicated person of which faith is one aspect. That said, I am currently in the middle if season 2 so the show has time to flip on that.
If you do continue reviewing Doctor Who novels, I recommend Touched by an Angel. I only recommend that one to others cause it was my first DW novel. As for this story trope, as someone who is Catholic I was never really bothered with stories like these. Granted, you do make some good points as to how these types of stories can be harmful. But, having said that, I am definitely not a fan of whenever in Sci-Fi or just in fiction in general, whenever they want an intolerant character who hates anything that is not straight, white, or male, they immediately make it a Southern Chrisitan man. Now growing up in the south, obviously (and unfortunately) there are people who are like that, but for every one of them, there's like 10 others who are tolerant of others and respect other's lifestyles. It just bothers me how fictional media continues to push the narrative of the intolerant white Christian man. The funny thing is, I'm Hispanic, so those types of characters being white doesn't bother me, but it's such an easy villain to do that is incredibly repetitive and shows a lack of wanting to delve deeper. It's the same with Nazi's in stories. I like seeing one getting punched as much as the next guy, but it's such an easy villain to do that sometimes indicates a lack of imagination on the writer's part. Sorry for the long rant, I guess I've had these thoughts for a while. Lol
I am a person of faith, and I share your feelings on this trope. I am probably missing out on some otherwise really well done SF/F stories because the use of this trope has turned me off. Thinking of examples where people of faith are depcited in a positive or neutral view is not the easiest thing. Closest I can think of recently is the Danish drama, The Rain, on Netflix. It's apocalyptic, but science-based. One of the survivors, Lea, is depicted as Christian, which is just part of who she is, and her faith does affect her actions in realistic ways. No big deal, just there, and I could very much identify with that.
As a devout pagan and ardent geek, I can only say thank you for this.
And yeah, B5 and Battlestar are much better done, and differently enough to make entirely original, worthy contributions to the conversation. I think Star Trek DS9 did well, too, but not nearly as well as those two. Which you really should watch.
I know a couple others have mentioned it, but Deep Space Nine handled faith and religion well. I think The Next Generation did as well. (star trek)
Where’s Frobisher when you need him, that big talking bird knew how to fix a holy terror.
See Holy Terror gets away with it because of what we eventually learn about the place it’s all happening.
Holy crap. Vera the lighting of this video is really good. Idk what it is, but it just stood out to me.
Interestingly, there's a First Doctor story that deals with the same premise. It's a TV story called "The Ark."
Not the religious angle l, mind you, just the Doctor & co. handle a situation, then return in the future to find their interference has hit the fan
As a person of faith, I tend to have more of a problem with the sort of colonial/White Savior overtones that can creep into these kinds of stories than their criticisms of religion, but I can enjoy this trope when it’s done well with more nuance than just “religion bad/primitive”.
Thank you. I'm really glad that you brought up something that means a lot to me.
I am so glad you addressed this. I remember almost not continuing Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood because of the religion episode early on in season 1. I almost stopped watching what I consider a masterpiece because of this. It's getting old, and its getting harder and harder to be a man of faith while being a fan of science fiction.
I have no inherent problem with a planet wide religion to worship Bradley Walsh tbh
Oh yh, i think The Face of Evil 1976 Doctor Who episode is kind of this.
When it comes to Doctor Who, I get why old Who didn’t do romances with the Doctor, but new who at least needs the reference to it, if not done outright, to keep some of the audience engaged.
Barely touched upon in the video but wanted to leave my 2 cents on the subject.
Blame Dune because Herbert do it so well. The seeding of prophecies and myths was calculated and done for purely selfish reasons. I don’t think Herbert however looked down on the Fremen.
No he didn’t. Herbert is one of a handful of authors ever who wrote like he actually understood religion, what it is and what roles it plays.
A story of one of the Doctor's companions being worshiped as a god like entity reminds me of 'The Aztecs'.
I didn't have much of a problem with this novel, mostly because it was my first time encountering this trope. Timing is everything, I suppose
The first time you encounter a trope or a cliche is the one time they don’t carry the baggage of being a trope or a cliche for you.
There's an interesting big finish story called faith stealer that has an incredibly different spin on religion and multi religion environments that's worth a listen.
I just listened to that in my Divergent marathon and I agree, it is worth a listen. That audio is mostly about religious diversity and coexistence. Although one could argue that it is also handling faith and it's importance for a given culture in a very derogatory way because many characters switch religion on a whim and the direct comparison to brainwashing in C'rizz's case when joining that cult 'Church of Lucidity'
Yep, it is written by a friend of mine, Graham Duff
Was The Good Doctor mentioned in End of Time in the church?
That was “the Sainted Physician.”
@@CouncilofGeeks ah thank you! :D
It’s no secret that many sci-fi fandoms have fallen short on approaching many thought provoking topics badly or childishly. That said, there was one recent show that did it brilliantly-The Orville. I would LOVE to see you review this show which turned out to be the Star Trek Discovery we wish we’d gotten. 🙏💫
Have you ever watched Battlestar Galactica (the 2004 reboot not the original)? I think it’s one of the few sci-fi shows that treats religion and faith with respect. Also it’s a freaking brilliant show! Love your videos!
Should have waited til the end of the video before I commented!! You literally just mentioned BSG lol. It is a great show if you ever get some time to watch it!
OMG This was so beautiful! Thank you for this!
As a person of faith, this moved me so much.
Thank you!
I mean this trope will eventually evolve into 'protagonists will interfere in a primitive society, unknowingly become deities, only for them through some mishap (maybe related to the interference) being shifted millennia in the culture's future to find broadcasts of television shows that are explaining how indigenous, ancient or minority religions and that their megalithic structures were only due to the interference from 'ancient aliens'...with all the insidious dismissiveness such claims tend to have...with the crew trying to explain that those 'ancient aliens' were them and they need the culture's help to get back to their time but finding it hard because no one wants to help them because of the inherent insidious dismissiveness of such claims'.
In terms of something I've recently watched, the TV show _Agents_ _of_ _S.H.I.E.L.D._ has Mack who talks about his Christian faith in numerous episodes (and is currently the director). It's depicted as something admirable, but quite difficult to maintain, living in the world in which he does (for example, the show has interstellar travel, and time travel).
You also mention _Battlestar_ _Galactica_ and you should *absolutely* watch this for a nuanced depiction of faith in science fiction! I think some people didn't like how it ended precisely because of its religious elements; I really liked them personally. It you don't want to watch that (for one thing it's really long), you could try the prequel series _Caprica_ which is even more religious. It's still reasonably nuanced overall, but there are elements of depicting religion as evil as well (for example there's a group with some parallels to Al-Qaeda).
Regarding other Doctor Who stories taking lazy jabs at religion, _The_ _Rings_ _of_ _Akhaten_ comes to mind as one I've seen relatively recently.
There's been some Rick and Morty episodes in the new season that do this trope but it's mostly done for comedy not for thematic reasons like you talk about in the video. So it's not a good different take on faith but it's not annoying either.
I've for the longest time have thought religion is like a Chinese whisper, the older it claims to be the less likely the original message remains the same. Whatever the true meanings are is eroded by those same groups of people you mentioned. You are right that those who question faith often use the misplaced God plot, it tells you more about the author than the over-used plot itself. If a Thanos clicked religion out of existance what would we all be? I wish this reverse plot was used more often because its by far the most interesting. As far as faith and religion goes, I'm not a believer but will always defend the right to each individuals' belief.
You should watch Star Trek Deep Space Nine.
They have a lot of religious characters. And they spend time showing the growing faith of Benjamin Sisko. So Star Trek Deep Space Nine subverts pretty much everything you say in this video. Hopefully that gives you some hope for the genre :)
Excellent video. (I think it would get more views with a different title. “Faith in Science Fiction” “Science fiction’s petty faith tropes,” something like that.)
I kind of wonder if that plotline is in anyway related to the 'mocking fans yet acting as if it's endorsement' that is done more and more often.
they share a tone, and the general attitude and idea. Just that with the latter people are being told they are not being mocked.
Battlestar Galactica (the new one) didn't do it. ST:DS9 treated matters of faith with respect. There's two. (The Expanse hasn't done it yet...)
So we expect the Spansih Inqusition... novel!
I haven’t read the book, so can’t comment on its quality. I did find your discussion on the representation of faith in this book, and sf in general, an interesting and valid one. The tropes of the book may be well trod, with countless other examples throughout the genre. However, one important point which I felt needed to be made is that the primary target audience for this series of doctor who novels are preteen and teenagers. That is not to say that interesting, fresh and non-condescending (to use your phrase) approaches can’t be produced for this targeted audience, but given the younger age of the reader they may not have encountered the plot as much.
Interesting to be reminded of how common this has been in science fiction. I used to just think it was a British thing, like, 70% of our population said in the last census that they were Christian, and a large part of the other 30% were other religions, but still it seems many times when I've seen someone speak candidly about having a faith, they've been looked at as if they were mad or delusional. Maybe it's the circles I've run in.
I'll freely admit I used to be an asshole atheist to a degree, especially after reading that Dawkins book. Thankfully I learned better when I saw exactly how big an asshole some other atheists were being to people who really didn't deserve it. People who use their religion as an excuse to harm others, they're still very very much fair game as far as I'm concerned, especially with the attacks being launched on LGBT rights by certain wealthy churches. But these days I won't stand for innocent kind-hearted folks being ridiculed just because they have a faith, even if it's one they do share with a bunch of bigots.
I think more people consider themselves Christian but aren't actively practicing and more recent studies show that there are more people considered spiritual or agnostic. You'd also have to allow for parents filling out details for their kids. The country is increasingly shown to be secular. I had the figures more recently, but I don't have them right now. The stats on Wikipedia are from 2015 and over 50% come under "no religion", I'm wondering if that term was used in the census because it seems more inclusive than atheist otr agnostic.
The 70% stat is from 2001, it was down to 59.4% in 2011.
That reminds me, I bought a 13th Doctor novel back in December '18 that I never finished.