Doctor Who Review: The Timeless Children - A Frustrated Rant
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
- Here we go, the capper on Series 12. The episode that's going to determine whether we've been building to a conclusion that pulls all the threads of the series together, or whether we suddenly realize that it's all been smoke and mirrors. And what do we get? About 90% of a great episode, but man oh man that other 10%
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I literally said in my own review “Council of Geeks is NOT going to like this” when talking about the Timeless Child revelation 😄
THIS should be the top comment!
*Issues unlikely to be explained:*
- If the Doctor isn't Gallifreyan, what are the chances of her having two hearts?...or the same biology at all?
*- Why didn't Clara see these Doctors when she entered his time stream?*
- Russell has confirmed that the woman in The End of Time - a Time Lord, but not Rassalon - was the Doctor's mother.
*- How can Ruth have a Police Box TARDIS?*
- If the Doctor chose her name prior to her memory being wiped (prior to Hartnell), how does she remember it? Did she never question her ignorance?
*- If the Judoon identified that the Doctor had previous bodies, why does no one else? Ever?*
- Why would the Time Lords reset the Doctor after seemingly letting Ruth go?
Everyone will try to answer these questions, but the fact is - I don't want these questions answered. *The show's called Doctor Who for God's sake!*
My issue is that Chris is trying to answer questions about the Doctor's past that were never meant to be answered in the first place. That's bad enough - but he's done such a shit job of it that there's even more (uninteresting) questions! He couldn't have done a worse job. And, for context, I was until recently luke-warm on Chibnill's Doctor Who.
nightowl has the Doctor just always had unlimited regenerations?
Let me try this:
"If the Doctor isn't Gallifreyan, what are the chances of her having two hearts?...or the same biology at all?"
Zero, absolutely zero.
"Why didn't Clara see these Doctors when she entered his time stream?"
Because reasons. Most likely because Chibnall decided to ignore the Moffat era. But in series? There is no explanation.
"Russell has confirmed that the woman in The End of Time - a Time Lord, but not Rassalon - was the Doctor's mother."
Doesn't really count since that is something that happened off screen nor in a book or an audio play. Still, it does contradict the idea that the Doctor is half-human from the TV movie anyway.
"How can Ruth have a Police Box TARDIS?"
Chibnall only watched the first part of An Unearthly Child and didn't realise that in the beginning of part 2, Susan and the Doctor are both concerned that the TARDIS didn't change her appearance.
" If the Doctor chose her name prior to her memory being wiped (prior to Hartnell), how does she remember it? Did she never question her ignorance?"
Again, Chibnall not watching beyond the first part of An Unearthly Child. In the second part Ian calls the Doctor Dr. Foreman and he reacts confused but later gets used to being called the Doctor and continues to call himself that. Too bad that Chibnall never saw that - or if he did, understood it.
"If the Judoon identified that the Doctor had previous bodies, why does no one else? Ever?"
Because reasons. More importantly: How did the Judoon do that? Is it really that easy to detect how many bodies a Time Lord had?
"Why would the Time Lords reset the Doctor after seemingly letting Ruth go?"
Again, reasons. Seriously, Chibnall probably didn't spent one second thinking all of this through.
Quick thing... the Judoon could arguably have been given this capacity, in this one case (for the Doctor) because it was the Division that hired them... as a Timelord secret police, they'd certainly have interest in having this ability, and likely little qualm about sharing it with the relatively reliable brokers/mercenaries the Judoon.
But you are correct, we will never get that answered.... because they are lazier than some rando on youtube like me.
As I understand it the Hartnell Doctor only had one heart. I think it's not too weird that 2 hearts is a common regeneration option but sometimes regeneration is a lottery. "Leg's I've still got legs"
The other things we learned;
- The Doctor's rule breaking was encouraged by "The Division" a new made-up secret faction of the Timelords.
- The Gallifrey home security is rubbish because one person, The Master, can kill everyone easier & qucker than the Daleks could.
- Graham O'Brian saw Star Wars because that plan was streight out of when Luke Skywalker & Han Solo dressed as Storm Troupers to escape.
- Chris Chibnall thinks Cybermen wear suits of armour rather than them being a one size mechanism containing cut-up to fit organics.
- All prior episodes/plots which talk of limited regenerations and the Doctor's origins on Gallifrey are now pointless and wrong. Clara only saw & helped a small fraction of The Doctor's timeline. etc.
Chris Chibnall:
Step one: make the doctor the timeless child.
Step two: fix the mess I made in step one.
Upvote for the awesomeness of the reference. Personally I don't think it's as big a mess as people are making it out to be, though.
@@irrevenant3 you mean other than the fact that it has made a plot hole of the fact that the eleventh doctor was unable to regenerate in time of the doctor because he used up his lives and had to get a new cycle, or the fact that Ruth's doctor is apparently before Hartnell yet she has the police box exterior, or the fact that the doctors are now number less as the doctor is now an immortal being that can regenerate indefinitely. They have also retconned river song as originally she was created by being conceived mid flight in the time vortex between Amy and Rory, yet with this knowledge now the only way she could exist is if the doctor had a child with Amy and then married a grown up version of his daughter. It also makes the doctor the most important person in the history of galifrey because if the doctor was not found and adopted by the woman, then the timelords would not have the ability to regenerate. One final thing is that if the doctor was around for the whole creation of galifrey then how have they not figured out the truth yet the master could in about 5 minutes, also would it not be more interesting if the master was the timeless child meaning that apart of the master is inside, surely it would break the doctor more than discovering that she is the timeless child and simultaneously explain why the master is always evil and insane.
@@alex-yu9yq 1. Smith believed he was on his last regeneration. He was mistaken because he didn't know about the Timeless Child thing. The Timelords who gave him the extra regeneration energy either also didn't know he was the Timeless Child, or did know and went through the motions to keep the secret. Either way, giving him extra regeneration that he didn't need would explain why that regeneration was so explosive.
2. I don't know why Ruth's TARDIS is a police box. That is genuinely a hanging question.
3. The Doctor having unlimited regenerationa isn't a mess. Let's be honest - the show was always going to renew them as needed anyway.
4. Time Lords originally gained their regenerations from the Timeless Child, but that's not the *only* way to get them. Melody got hers by being conceived in a TARDIS midflight. (Madame Kovarian's experiments were possibly required to bring out this potential too). Also, the Timeless Child fell through some sort of vortex so they might have gained regeneration in a similar way themself.
5. It makes the Doctor important to Gallifreyan history but in a way that doesn't actually make them more important as a person. I'm okay with that.
6. The whole Timeless Child thing seems to have been a closely kept secret, and I imagine The Division weren't above extreme measures to keep it hidden. The Master is also uniquely familiar with the Matrix - it's possibly nigh-impossible for anyone else to find.
7. It would have been interesting if the Master was the Timeless Child, but I'm okay with this version too.
irrevenant3 thank you thank you thank you THANK YOU for explaining why this works
I truly believe that this doesn’t destroy any lore, just gives it SO much more substance
Maxwell MacIntyre 😂
With Eleven, throughout his tenure, there was the acknowledgment that he had become too big and yes, 900 years of defeating everyone, your name will get around. However, by the end, he was back to being just the individual of his society he wanted to be, still the “Last of the Time Lords” but now living quieter than when he started. And that’s where you get a lot of Twelve’s great lines being “just a traveler” knowing his Society has returned.
Exactly. They played with the whole "everyone knows the Doctor because they've been everywhere" dynamic in Eleven's era, and all along, the point was that its dangerous for them to be so well known. We were never supposed to think it was fun, it was supposed to be precarious. Like, "Oh man, _another_ random stranger knows the Doctor? Yikes. Can't wait to see how this ties into one of several factions trying to kill him."
This? This is just bad lmao
Ruined it in my eyes. I know Moffat tiptoed in this kind of thing but this has gone way too far. He's ruined the backstory of the doctor, Gallifrey and the origins of the doctor. The doctor was like the equivalent to the average timelord on Gallifrey, who ran away and stole a TARDIS. Now he's the flipping chosen one.
This has just irritated me so much.
The Doctor is NOT the chosen one. They were the origin of the species, but then their memory was wiped and they started a new life, in which they *were* an ordinary time lord.
@@landlighterfirestar5550 even with the memory wipe, The Doctor is now WAY more important than they should be as Council of Geeks expressed. Especially now she has some of those memories back
Despite wanting to toe the line as closely as possible even Moffat knew better than to be the guy who revealed who the Doctor was, even after writing 6 seasons of it.
Chibnall though? Two largely mediocre seasons in and he has the _cheek_ to throw away years and years of canon and directly explain who the Doctor was.
@@ABonafideSkeleton He wanted to leave his mark on the show and he sure as heck did. A giant crater scorch mark that blacks out mutiple years of canon. I wouldn't be surprised if the show is cancelled a season or two from now if he stays on. Unfortunately he already signed on for season 13. Also Moffat actually had respect for the material and it's history. I've read better researched FANFICTION than some of the stuff Chibs the idiot is trying to shove down our throats.
@@madeleine5561 no she hasn't memories back
"At least its better that Hell Bent"
you take that back right now!!
It is definitely better than Hell Bent
@@landlighterfirestar5550 no it's not... at least Hell bent didn't destroy the entire continuity
@@avocadothecatEh, I do remember the fanbase being quite divided at the time... I hate them both!
Kathy Constantine actually neither “destroyed the entire continuity”
Hell Bent pushed the character of the Doctor in a way that is completely unnatural
The Timeless Children adds part of a backstory to the Doctor that while some people don’t want to know, does not change who the Doctor is
@@landlighterfirestar5550 i can only say please rewatch this video on why "adding" part of the doctors backstory was the worst thing that could have been done.
-How was the Doctor supposed to die in Turn Left if he's effectively immortal? did he just get too wet?
-In The Brain of Morbius, How does the doctor explain his pre-Hartnell incarnations to himself if he doesn't remember them.
-How does Susan fit into all of this, does she know about the Timeless Child?
-Just Why?
I'm confused. Where did the Master get the idea that the Timeless Child was the Doctor? Because nothing he actually shows her in the Matrix seems to back that up, and there's a big gap in its records of the Timeless Child.
Is the Doctor just taking the Master's word on this, or did I miss something?
At this point I just choose to believe that the master was pulling this shit out of his ass and it's just one big facade.
yeah why did he think that
It’s not shown onscreen, but I assume the Doctor’s name was in the file.
Surely it makes more sense for the master to be the timeless child and could be used to explain how hes always coming back after his original 12 regens were up and how he has some sort of subconscious hatred for the time lords and would actually be a good backstory for him. Having the doctor as the timeless child just creates more plot holes than it actually fills in.
Yes but that would require Chibnall to actually THINK about what he was doing and write a plot that makes sense. Which we all know he is practically incapable of.
@@madeleine5561 hopefully there will be another twist in this mess where it is the master
Seriously, I think litterally anyone else besides Chibnall would make a better showrunner for Doctor Who. When the fans and random people on the internet can come up with better twists and story ideas, what are you even doing?
@@jagothegamer5750 yep!
@@jagothegamer5750 if they can answer just a few of the new plot holes it created like how river song got the regeneration gene now that its genetic, how every species we know only has records of the doctor back asfar as hartnell, ruth doctor can be brushed off as series 6b like people have said, how the doctors own timeline when they stepped into it only went as far back as hartnell still wont fix it the doctor is just a madman in a box passing through not some god
This makes Matt smiths regeneration feel a bit redundant
That's how I felt it just scrapped that whole story
exactly
That wasn't great anyway.
TurtleHQ actually, I personally think it makes it more impactful! I say this simply because the doctor had no idea of the truth, but the time lords likely did, meaning they went through that whole endeavor with him knowing it was all a lie, practically manipulating him. And, if they didn’t know, it still gives that whole scene a lot more of a suspicious feeling.
XxLunaAtlasXx but it doesn’t make sense - because he would’ve regenerated if he could have on Trenzalore centuries before when he was getting old. He physically could not regenerate without the granting of a new cycle.
As a Dyspraxic, Ryan's basketball payoff was something I was waiting for whole season. While it is very very predictable, it's nice to get little victories amongst the big ones
I was honestly expecting him to screw up the throw, so for me it was a nice surprise.
So, did I read this right, you're dyspraxic?
Because since episode 2 of Jodie Whittaker's run, I've asked myself 'does this condition work like that?', because it doesn't feel like it had any impact on the story except when it was a thing he could overcome?
Like, I don't get the condition and its implications, because I don't have it, but from the like 3 sentence explanation in the first episode of Jodie's run and him not being able to ride a bike, it feels like it should be more impactful than a thing that randomly shows up once upon a time as a plot device?
Granted, I've barely seen anything of the current series, because I disliked the last one so much, so maybe it's treated differently here...?
@@InaZeaAnaZazi It *kinda* works like they show it, but it's different from person to person. Some parts are exaggerated and some parts are under-played, but it's not the worst representaton of dyspraxia I've seen. I for one get impressed when I walk in a straight line for 10 feet
I loved that moment - him being so worried about it and how much it chimed with the first thing we saw of him this series. I was genuinely happy & surprised when he made the shot. I don't get like that about sports at all, they bore me, but this was such a good victory and they made us see how hard he's worked for it .
Maybe it's me, but it looked like he was too far away to really make that throw, dyspraxic or not
Question: HOW did the Master conclude that the Doctor was the timeless child? Maybe I missed that explanation, but the info was redacted before ANY connection to the Doctor could be made. So, HOW ON GALLIFREY did the Master make that conclusion?
He lied and has brainwashed The Doctor to believe him by planting false memories in her head. The Ruth Doctor is probably a generation of The Master too, with some sort of bio filter to make The Doctor's sonic think she is her. Well, that's my get-out theory for this mess anyway.
@@Payne2view yes, I like this. I'm going with this.
Robert Payne, I hope so hhhhh
The information was hidden in the matrix...? Then again isn't the Valeyard still in the Matrix somewhere?
@@MrAEMiller yeah.... not exactly a clean explanation
Headcanon: The whole timeless child thing was just something some bored gallifreyan students made up and put in the archive.
Sludge Muffin Time Lord 1: “Hey. You wanna hack The Matrix and prank the Doctor” Time Lord 2 “Yes. Absolutely”
In Grade 11, a friend of mine created a PowerPoint for her Biology assessment and it was 'An Ode to Jim Carrey'. I assume this was the Time Lord version of that.
that would be wonderful
Best thing, it was The Master, as a child.
He did say he and the Doctor ran away from Cardinal Borusa's lessons when they were in the Academy.
YES!
My Theory is - The Valeyard, altered the Matrix with the stuff about "The Timeless Child" brainwashed the Master making him think it true, also captured a future incarnation of The Doctor and made her think she was a past version of the Doctor
You a better writer than chin ball
Don't bother with this soap opera junk and just accept that they made a poor choice for political reasons.
... I would honestly prefer that.
@@pigtailsboy not sure how it's political reasons, just a bad plot
@@bbsj86 it is political at this point, retcons who down to the core
I hadn't heard that leak and I was really enjoying the episode until the Doctor asked "what happened to the child?" and I froze. Even without the leak I _knew_ the Master was going to say it was her and in those few seconds I kept hoping he wouldn't, but damnit he did and I was so disappointed. It felt like such a cliche.
Another nitpick: how did the Judoon just teleport inside the TARDIS? I thought that was supposed to be nearly impossible, and the Judoon certainly don't seem like the type who could manage it.
Perhaps these Judoon are working for 'the Division', so those Gallifreyans arranged the transport?
Seems Chibs has forgotten about that...Remember Ruth teleporting herself and the Doc into her TARDIS? Guess she doesn't need a key, huh? Used to be only cosmic beings could breach the TARDIS, now even space cops can do it. I don't think they were working for the Division, either, as they say they are just following up on cold cases...
@@HandofOmega I mean, given that Ruth is the Doctor I can accept her doing it. I could accept the creatures from Spyfall breaking in as well since they were from another dimension, not bound by the same rules. But yeah, the Judoon really bothered me.
@@SarcyBoi41 Except that no other version HAS ever been able to do that, not even when it would have been very useful...
Exactly!
I definitely see where you're coming from in regards to what the point of the Timeless Child is, if it has no actual lasting impact on the Doctor. But I'd actually say it does have lasting connotations for the show as a whole that really intrigue me.
When 'The War Games' happened, a lot of the Doctor's story was demystified - we knew where the Doctor came from and why they ran from Gallifrey. As the years went on, the development of Gallifreyan lore continued to impact on this, and we ended up in a position where the Doctor wasn't really much of a mysterious character anymore. We still don't know everything about them (like their name), but we know so much that this aspect has been mostly lost. The Timeless Child reveal keeps the Doctor's history as we know it intact, but adds an extra dimension of mystique that makes them so much more interesting then before. Where does the Doctor actually come from? Did they have parents? Why were they abandoned? Why can they regenerate? Was the little girl who was found even their first life, or does it go back even further? These are questions I actually hope are never answered in much detail, and for me it adds new significance to the title 'Doctor Who'.
I'm sure we'll explore some aspects, like how Ruth actually fits in, and what 'The Division' were up to, but I just feel really excited to feel like I don't truly know this character that well anymore, and neither does the Doctor. It seems like a much stronger version of the Cartmel Masterplan (which I never liked), but instead of the Doctor being some kind of knowing God that created the Time Lords, they were a pawn/victim in the Time Lords quest for power and status. I think that's actually really powerful. It makes the Doctor more important, yes, but not in a way that is detrimental to the character and everything that's been previously established about them. Plus, from the Doctor's personal point of view, Hartnell is still the first life they lived through that made them who they are today, so I don't think it affects his legacy either.
I do understand why people don't like this though. I honestly would have thought it would bother me too, but Chris Chibnall actually really delivered on this one for me.
I agree with this assessment, it puts my feelings into words
But the key difference here is that before the Doctor was mysterious because they didn't want to share information, it was deliberate. But now the mysterious nature is a mystery even FOR the Doctor, it's not that they don't want to talk about their past, it's that they don't know it
I agree with this 100%, even though I was fine with the original version of the Cartmel Masterplan I have to say I really like this reinterpretation. And the last sentiment, that you were expecting to hate it but it managed to be executed in just the right way, absolutely puts my feelings into words as well.
i get that but im with council of geeks , this makes the doctor so special for the time lords , for the universe from his origin, it was already a problem with previus doctors but this ,this is too much and also have limitless regeneration takes away the relevance of it , solved one plot hole but inserts so much more
i just want to say thank you for putting into words an explanation that makes me see why the show did it
though i fear the show will answer them
Why was 11 dying in time of the Doctor
Why didn’t Clara see any of this
The dr is now the most important character in Timelord history not some renegade “a madman with a box”
(Why limit it to 12 regens??)
exactly!
The Doctor was just growing old. As all timelords do before they regenerate. Smith thought he couldn't regenerate further, which is false, but the timelords gave him the extra regens anyways and he regenerated after that. The extra regen energy was not required, just something the timelords decided to do after listening to Clara, because why would Clara have any reason to doubt the Doctor's own words?
Turbo Nerdo
11 was about to die, as shown by the fact he immediately starts regenerating after getting the energy
Meaning he wouldn’t have changed without it
Meaning he can’t have infinite lives
1. He didn't know he wasn't. He has no memory of ever living more than 11 lives and knows you only get 12
2. Clara was only seeing the past through the Doctors experience, that is the limit to this Doctors experience
3. He/She is still a renegade in a box just with a cool back story now
4. I think that will come out, but probably to stop cultural immortality
These are only my opinions back to your opinions and I am not saying you are not correct in your ideas :)
Jenellie Nostrabo
While we obviously disagree
I just don’t like this new backstory since we actually meet the doctors “mum” adopted or not
"You can paint a turd, but it's still a turd." Simple
Well I'm just going to believe the Master is the Timeless Child and he was lying. Perhaps because he thought he might be able to drive the Doctor crazy like him. It's better that way.
It would better explain his anger. And he'd totally want to drop it on the Doctor and watch her react, just like he must have when he found out. And then you get a great scene (hopefully when both are present) when the Doctor realizes it wasn't her. It was the Master and that's why he's so F'd up.
I agree that is what I am going with, The master destroyed Gallifrey and we have no idea how long he has been living in its ruins. He has all the time he needs to corrupt and alter the Matrix so that it will say anything he likes. In general I hate this desire to make the hero of a series even more special than everyone else, I hated the way Captain Sikso in DS9 turns out to have been a being created by the prophets. Why can't they be happy with the Doctor being a rebel Timelord who wants to fight evil in the universe.
Some people have said that this change gives more to explore in future episodes but I disagree, if the idea was to bring mystery back into Doctor Who then the last thing they can do is explore that mystery and find answers because then the mystery is gone.
That wouldn't explain Ruth, though.
@@irrevenant3 I think season 6B can be used to explain Ruth.
@@scarfhs1 True. But that's a more convoluted explanation.
In an attempt to not be too negative, i'll just say that we had it good with Capaldi.
I like Jodis doctor but I feel that Steven Moffat could have done better with her
AMEN
@Michael F I'd argue about the stories. For me his first series was rough but certainly his character arc, and the combo of World enough and time and The Doctor Falls is the highest high of modern Who.
We did!!
This show didn't deserve him.
Or rather, the show deserves to be as good as his acting ability.
I was sooo waiting for this.
The irony though, Chibnall out-moffated Moffat.
Chibnall is taking risks Moffat wasn't daring to take.
Wasn't Chibnall criticized for being too "safe" in series 11?
@@doctorthirteen5727 People critize everything these days. I'm not even bothering with it anymore.
@@doctorthirteen5727 apparently asking for some kind of middle ground is unreasonable, but yeah he was criticized. That's why it seems funny now.
@@timrob12 I don't know if I would call it a risk. It feels a lot like Batman v Superman to me where the decision they made should have felt like a risk, but it was so by the numbers that it felt lazy.
I saw a really good comment on Reddit that said it felt like Chibnall had an idea when he was growing up watching the show, then decades later it no longer worked in the canon that had been established since but he decided to go with it anyway.
It definitely feels like that. It feels like a fan fiction origin story of Doctor Who thought up by a child.
That... actually makes a lot of sense.
I always imagined that the Slitheen was a childhood creation of Davies, that in practice is a bit too silly and childish but he rolled with it anyway because it was his chance to bring his childhood to life. Everything from the aliens being big and green, to squeezing into human disguises, to the farting, all fits that idea. So i guess this is just the same thing but a MUCH bigger scale and actually having impact on the show's lore
@@ClaraFinn Which is a big reason it's so bad. Like. Farting green costume monsters is a single episode thing. Chibnall just created the origin of the doctor and the time lords. The most mysterious element of the show. I feel he did it make his mark on the show. Like a cat pissing to mark their territory.
Thank you for this
Also, SPOILERS HERE the Lone Cyberman reminded me of a certain Game of Thrones character who was built up to be very powerful and important and was defeated too quickly for my liking.
“He knew very well that immortality was a curse. Not a blessing.” The
First Doctor, in The Five Doctors. The Doctor is now immortal. There are no longer any stakes in terms of the Doctor’s life. Who cares if the Master or Daleks come back. She/he can’t die. If she/he does, she/he will simply regenerate. Infinitely. In some ways I hope this is a lie by the Master. Creating a false sense of confidence within the Doctor, thus accelerating her/his actually finite regenerations and her/his eventual demise.
She can still die. If she's killed with a poison or disease that blocks regeneration, if she dies too quickly, if she's killed during her regeneration... Things haven't changed. But now we won't need to explain why there can be more than 12, 24, 36,... etc Doctors. The Doctor isn't more immortal than he used to be. Regeneration hasn't changed; the only thing that changed is the number of regeneration he has (that number hasn't always been well defined, so it really doesn't change much)
@@louisehad how do the dead cyber Lords regenerate if they can't if they are dead
@@wizard000133 How is it linked to my previous comment? I'll still give you my answer if it interests you
Short answer: I just didn't think about it when I first watched the episode
Long answer: Now that you ask me to explain and that I've rewatched the episode, I'd say maybe the regeneration energy couldn't be used by the Time Lords (death too quick, killed during regeneration...) but was still inside them (not the end of their cycle). The Master had become the more powerful Time Lord; he had access to all gallifreyan technology and all of the Cyberium's knowledge. We had just learned that the Time Lord had been artificially inginereed (by a less advanced civilisation that didn't have the Cyberium), so I'm okay with the Master doing the same with the Cybermasters. Maybe he even went to the source of the regenerating power since he now knew what it was.
Or it could just be a plot hole, I don't know.
To me, the biggest problem isn't the Cybermasters, but the way the Master killed all Time Lords (the way he did it could explain how he created the Cybermasters btw). Even though I like the fact that the Master can sometimes be over-powerful without any explanation, I find hard to believe he actually destroyed every Time Lord without getting hurt while managing to keep some of the bodies intact.
The Doctor always was immortal, this will be the case until the end of the show, now, they just don't have to find a way to add new regenerations.
I’ve seen people saying this, that there’s no sense of danger anymore, and I just have two things to say to anyone who says it. First Is “Oh, please. Have you ever _seriously_ thought the Doctor was actually going to truly die? _Really?_ They were never going to anyway, this hardly changes that.” Second is: “What show were you watching before?” Turn Left, Forest of the Dead, Impossible Astronaut, Doctor Falls, probably more that I’m forgetting...all episodes that explicitly show or state that a Time Lord with remaining lives can die before using them. And that’s just modern era stuff, I’m sure there’s classic stuff that says it too. There are many ways a Time Lord can die without being able to regenerate. Strong poisons, regeneration being deactivated by something like the laser screwdriver, interrupted in the middle of regeneration, hell, they could be caught in an explosion that incinerates them. The _only_ thing this infinite regenerations thing changes (going forward, regardless of changes to past stuff) is that they won’t have to keep coming up with new and increasingly bullshit excuses why the Doctor doesn’t run out of regenerations at the end of each cycle of 13.
Two warrior races combined, standing in the ruins of Gallifrey. You could say they were... a Hybrid.
Well, in that other case they were both heroes and not murderous abominations. So.
You could say The Timelords themselves have always been a Hybrid because they gene-sliced The Doctor's species with theirs.
Technically speaking you could argue the Master was the Hybrid and the whole fix his hearts bit from the prophecy was about the Master trying to fix his anger over finding out about the Timeless Child. So ignoring everything with the Doctor, Clara and whatever your opinions are about the Timeless Child, I feel that this episode gives a much better explanation for the Hybrid prophecy than Hell Bent did.
You know what? I’ll take it, the Cyber Lords are the Hybrid prophecy in my head canon now. Better than the bs non-explanation we got for it. I honestly thought it wasn’t even actually answered.
Never mind the human remains in the suits. In the pandorica opens we saw the cyber man helmet trying to actively convert Amy. What would a full suit do
Why can river regenerate?
The Time Vortex doesn’t do it you need the doctors DNA....... I mean river has that but.....
i see what you did there.
Space Penguins this needs more likes
what exactly I thought when master said you are the origin of the regeneration. I wish it was explained by saying people running from the cybermen were first Gallifreyans and their descendants were exposed to time vortex for millions of years. Sorry but I can't stand the idea of doctor is timeless child
River can regenerate because the Silence gave her extra timelord DNA
@@paindepices4939 But how ?
Also I'm wondering if Chibnall was just really desperate to canonize the Brain of Morbius Doctors.
As i see it... it's just his way of saying "hey, look... see? this fits" ignoring plenty of other episodes and parts of the lore. Almost an excuse to justify what he wanted to do.
@@tonk82 What parts of lore though? I don't understand what people are talking about when they say this contradicts - like, how? It adds to it but doesnt change a thing about OUR doctors timeline as we know it.
It doesn't. Brains of Morbius has always been my personal head canon. Because it's in the show. It was a thing. It happened.
But people just want to think what they want to because they want to, it seems.
It's really weird.
Some people only want to know things about the Doctor if they like it. Instead of just going "ok, that's weird"..
@@hichaelmartline When 'okay, that's weird' is the whole fricking premise of the show. Doctor WHO?
Not Doctor we know you're entirely timeline from birth to now.
@Mehmet Yilmaz Yes, I know. I've seen all classic who. They even say in this episode that they have means of suppressing regeneration.
If they want the doctor to not know who they are, the logical thing to do would be suppress to a standard regeneration cycle.
Not to mention, in case the whole point of the episode was missed, the doctor didn't know.
Don't worry, in a couple of years this will probably be retconned.
We can only hope. Maybe the Matrix lied!
I'll be annoyed if he does it immediately. Like if the gap in the matrix reveals the Doctor isn't the Timeless Child at all. I don't like that the Doctor is the Timeless Child, but if Chibnall just immediately retcons it I'll lose respect for him as he can't stick to his guns.
I can see Chibnall's replacement trying to restore the status quo, before giving their own retcon.
Galactic yo yo
I REALLY HOPE SO, it might be one of those things we just overlook and ignore like when the Doctor said he was half human (in the movie)
@@aceywacey9871 I feel we can easily overlook it now. Sure a lot of people are unhappy, myself included, but it doesn't effect anything really unless they bring it up again later on. Like was pointed out in this video, you can just remove the Timeless Child because it's so detached from the rest of the story. We can just ignore the past incarnations if they never show up or are mentioned again, which for me, would be ideal.
I feel that Chris Chibnall has abused his power of running the show I just hope in all that the Master is lying and he's just playing a twisted game.
I agree and wish you were right but I doubt Chibnall is clever enough to do this
No doubt. This isn’t the first time we’ve quietly retconned pre-Hartnell incarnations out of continuity.
@@BlackCover95 yeah your right wasn't there a Tom Baker serial that once said the 4 is the next to the last? But then they bunked it off and over time people ignored it?
@@DavRossTheWhovian Don't know if we're talking about the same thing, but I'm referring to "The Brain of Morbius". ua-cam.com/video/51a1hoSn4uY/v-deo.html
Why does “Everything Will Be Changed” have to be every writer’s go-to when handed a long-running property? Why not try to be remembered simply for the strength of the smaller stories? Ultimately, though, I can live with retcons. I’m not one of those people who thinks canon has to stay the same at all times. But a retcon has to be judged by what it adds to the overall narrative and what it detracts.
But my reaction by the end of this episode was… I guess it could have been worse. Chibnall could have screwed up everything much more. But this is basically the exact same plot twist as The Matrix Reloaded. I liked the Doctor nobody special. Just a dropout bum by Time Lord standards. It makes the character’s ascension to one of the most important figures in the universe by sheer virtue of their actions one of their most inspirational elements.
Now, all of that’s flushed down the toilet. The Doctor has always been “Special,” has always been “Different.” Now, they’re not even a Time Lord! They were never born into the society they rebelled from. Their separation from Time Lord society feels less like a choice. Less like free will. Because they were never truly one of them.
The idea is not without merit, though. I do like some elements of this. That they chose the name of the Doctor because they chose it before… and the implication that the “First” Doctor chose this TARDIS because it was the one he used in his past lifetimes… interesting stuff. (Of course, it detracts from all the wonderful bits of dialogue from the TARDIS in “The Doctor’s Wife.”) And honestly, I will admit it’s kind of clever to finally work out the canonicity of the “The Brain of Morbius Faces” and the implications that were laid out for the unresolved Cartmell Masterplan. But ultimately? It’s just not worth it. This retcon, in my opinion, detracts more from Inspirational Message of the character of the Doctor than it adds to them.
Also, I feel sorry for the poor wiki editors who now have to figure out how they hell they’re going to rewrite every Doctor’s page.
Oh yes, and destroying Gallifrey again? At least the first time, the Doctor had done it themselves, to add some additional emotional weight to the character. And saving it likewise had a huge emotional impact on the character. Now it’s just… gone, and it means nothing. The Time Lords have always been plot fodder for the Doctor, their machinations providing plenty of storytelling potential over the decades. But now they’re really gone (in a way that any future writer so inclined will have to jump through some pretty impressive hoops to bring back), and all the potential stories that can be had with them is gone as well. Once again, the decision, in my mind, was Not Worth It.
Ego
Because a show that doesn't try to evolve and simply keeps to a formula will stagnate and lose it's audience. It already happened to this franchise once. Not that this change was necessarily a good one. But it's important that every season of a successful show feel important to the audience. Like they aren't wasting our time. Ironically a major issue with Chibnall's previous season was that he played it far too safe and the series felt majorly lacking in scope.
Trying to be remembered for the strength of the smaller stories was basically Chibnall's goal with Series 11. I don't really blame him for abandoning it under the circumstances...
@@edl01reviews CHECK RATINGS... DOWN
@@edl01reviews I'm absolutely with Ed. I have developed a rule of thumb, or a theory, if you like. Every show that exceeds 5 Seasons will start to suck, especially if it has an arch. And (this is still part of the way I formulated it) Doctor Who is the exception because it reinvents itself every couple of seasons.
And for that matter, there simply is no working continuity to be retconned here. It was always a mess, the moment there was some of it to speak of. Cartmel Plan was used for the books, no one liked the whole Killn thing, it was ignored. There was something about The Doctor being The Other, a third founding father of Timelord society beside Rassilon and Omega. Haven't heard of it in years...
Would have maybe been slightly acceptable to have the Master use the Moment to destroy Gallifrey, purely so the interface can take a form of a young Doctor to try and guilt him out of it, like Academy Era Doctor. Like a little Theta would be sweet to see and have the potential to explore the Master/Doctor relationship and have an emotional impact. idk.
I'm really glad we weren't alone with our thoughts on The Timeless Child! Great video buddy, our reviews are pretty much identical!
I still don't understand the issue with changing canon. The series has forever done this. Fair play to you, obviously just confuses me.
@@sbi168 i can only say rewatch this video and listen carefully...he explains it perfectly on why this is an issue (im not trying to be rude btw)
Fuck Rassilon, fuck Omega, Fuck the other!
The past and future is female!!!!! It was all a lie. Some random FEMALE scientists found a alien GIRL and experimented on her. BOOM! TIME LORDS. Then eventually they somehow figured out a little thing called time manipulation. Thee end! - CHIBS
GhostForTheMost dont blame bad writing on Marxist feminist lesbians, fascists. If anyone hit the keyboard hard, it’s them
You really seem to misunderstand the 11th Doctor's arc. 🙁 Army's being chased away just by his name was presented as a BAD thing. They were saying the Doctor shouldn't be like this and it's wrong the show has built him up to this point. That was the whole point of that and his arc was to get the Doctor back on track to being just an everyday person instead of this God-like figure they were built up to be in the RTD era.
Good point!
I loved that arc. Especially how now there's storylines such as Time Lord Victorious and Out of Time have shown that these concepts are toxic values for the Doctor to have.
Literally none of this makes sense! Like the Master wasn’t kidding when he said everything was a lie. Literally everything we knew about the Doctor, Time Lords, & Galifrey was a lie! This is the biggest slap in the face retcon I’ve ever seen! Thanks I hate it.
agreed
Couldn't agree more totally destroyed who history
@@phillipgreen2082 Chibnall has no respect for Who history and continuity
I must say, I'm really rather disappointed to see these misconceptions here as well. All this "everything is about to change" was nothing but bait and good marketing for something that ultimately doesn't change much at all. The Time Lord society, their pompousness, their history - it's all still intact. They were still geniuses and developed all that amazing technology. The only thing that was a lie is that regeneration is not a gift of the schism or the TARDISes (both versions that exist in canon - talk about contradicting in-universe stuff), but that it's actual science. It was Tecteun's ingenuity that created the Time Lords and Rassilon who shaped their society. Gallifrey still developed as it did, complete with its own myths. And the Doctor is still a Time Lord, still the same person we know. This is neither a slap in the face nor a retcon, really. You can still hate it of course, but it destroyed nothing.
agreed
Thought: Chibnall wrote this as a fan fiction when he was a kid and was determined to make it an episode when he got the show runner job. Even if it does mean scrubbing all of the lore created in the last 15 years of nuWho.
@Jude H
Yes, fans wanting a good quality show is now pretentious.
@@fivish He didn't save it. He wrecked it but not to the point where the entire cannon is destroyed. He screwed up and I hate him for it and everything else he has done to DW.
@Jude H Also I agree with Tabula Rasa. Wanting a good quality show with characters we care about isn't pretentious.
I can totally see this being the subyacent truth, because it truly reads as a piece of bad fanfiction. I mean, I have read well-planned and carefully researched and written fanfiction that was WAY BETTER than this thing we saw. It has more shock for shock's sake than real plot or development. Badly written fanfiction is my new headcanon for this mess!!
@@viiiivivii306 So have I. I can recommend at least three fanfics that were better researched and more enjoyable than ANY of Chibnall's work. And that you know ACTUALLY RESPECTED the show itself and it's history.
Can anyone explain why every Cyberman story for the past 6 years has had to involve the master in some way? That way usually involving him/her completely taking the spotlight from them?
Because Cybermen running around yelling "DELETE" and converting a few chumps and then blowing up at the end of the story is hard to make interesting.
toyguy119
Writers don’t know what to do with them without a “bigger” threat
Since after the body horror aspect they are just disposable robots (a poor mans dalek)
@@landfish7a mr clever??
@@landfish7a which is especially weird seeing as the best episode of any of them is the one with least master in it (World Enough and Time)
Check that one up to Chibnall, say what you want about Moffat at least his use of Cybermen/master was a thematic wrap up to Capaldi's run
Hot take: The timeless child thing doesn't bother me. And honestly I wonder why The Master thinks the timeless child was the doctor and not the master himself. And I'm curious as to what was in the redacted part of the matrix/memories.
Elizabeth Jack I agree.
We know the timeless child is the doctor... those creatures from last season said it , the master was not reintroduced until way later. But I guess you could contradict that if you want.
My question is why didn't they just redact the Timeless Child stuff too?
Maybe that part they couldn't see is where they plan to do a story or spin off at some point. I'm still confused about Brendan. If he was the doctor then why didn't he regenerate and what exactly was they doing with him?
@@k.stewart007 This was a distorted memory clue to the Doctor left in the Matrix by her adoptive mother. The events that actually happened were what we seen in the flash backs the master showed us with the timeless child, with the toy and falling of the cliff and the garda (police) being a parralell to the divition.
In my head, I believe that the Master was trolling the Doctor all along, because that's what he does
Can't we just happily expect The Master is lying about the Timeless Child? And isn't it previously established that what the matrix shows can be untrue (in The Trial of a Time Lord)?
Probably. I mean, next season they'll move on to the next big stupid plot twist and this one will be forgotten like all the previous ones.
They won't, the BBC are defending the _shit_ out of Chibnall's decision even as the show's ratings plummet and the audience shuns it.
That would be such a stupidly cheap copout though. It would feel pathetic. Especially because we have no actual reason to think he was lying except for wishing for it. Every sign in the show points to him telling the truth.
Yes I would be happy with that. Yeah in Trial of a Timelord it is theorized by the Doctor and proven by the Master that the Matrix can not only be untrue but has been edited by the Valeyard. Wouldn't be to hard to believe that somebody edited the Matrix to show what is shows. Although Chibnall did watch and complain about, Trial of a Timelord.
if ruth didn't exist i would happily go with that, or that the master is actually the timeless child but because he was so awful they basically deleted him from his own histroy
I'm just glad the timelords didn't evolve from time-traveling humans.
They could still somehow make the doctor a human through some trash editing. His persistence at visiting his favorite planet in the new show suggests further needless expansions of lore.
*Half* Human...
On his mother's side 😉
@@8LiterallyJustTheNumber8 omg I just realised the timeless child coming from another universe means the Doctor could literally be anything. She could be a Skywalker. fuck...
@@hiccuphufflepuff176 knowing Chibnall it wouldn't be a surprise if he pulled something that dumb
That'd honestly be better than this
I wouldn't be surprised if this gets reckoned out in a season or two.
retconned*
I reckon it's possible it will be retconned.
I think it's inevitable. If a cancellation isn't.
It will as soon as somebody at the BBC remembers Omega is a thing.
It might be retconned by a different showrunner
For all the UA-camrs reviews for this episode, yours was the one I was most looking forward to. I wasn't disappointed. You're always so passionate 🙌🏻
They should have made the Master the timeless child and the Doctor the one to discover them. All those endless regenerations, and bitterness over being used, would explain why the Master is the way he is. It would also explain his unique love-hate relationship with the Doctor. The Doctor could have come to regret his treatment of the Master and giving the Timelords the ability to regenerate. That could be a major reason why the Doctor went rogue in the first place. The Master wants acceptance and the Doctor redemption. A sort of f***ed up parent-child tragedy.
What we need in the future is a series where each episode is stand alone, where you go to the past every now and then (which is kind of the point to time travel fiction), stay away from commonly used monsters and create new ones, have dynamic companions who contribute to the plot and action, and mix genres between episodes to show the full range the show can offer. In other words, do what the did in the 60’s and 70’s. You know, the period everybody that had the most popular Doctors, the best writers, and the most unique stories.
What bugs me more than anything is actually: How did the Judoon get into the TARDIS?
Other things that have showed up in the TARDIS:
-Runaway Bride
-Gigantic Titanic space ship
-Posessed Ood
-The House
-Female incarnation of the TARDIS, inside of a mini TARDIS
-Weird alternate-dimension clone made of light
Wilo Polis yeah, but don't we get an explanation for those thing? Like with the runaway bride she was connected to the TARDIS. And with the ship, it simply just crashed into his.
@@_leeevi I mean we don't get an explanation for the ship that crashed into the TARDIS until the next episode (after the cliffhanger), so it's only fair we wait this one out as well. I'm sure the next episode will explain it
@@WiloPolis03 almost all of which were explained in the same episode
Get gave them access codes to the Doctor's Tardis. I'm sure the Timelord CIA would have those.
Someone said that it would have made a lot more sense if the timeless child was in fact the master. And I agree.
The Doctor is no longer a timelord, timelords aren't even timelords, just imitation Doctors, and the Doctor is now a deus ex machina.
It's so bad. It's like chibnall really wanted to be the person to give the doctor an origin story as a way to make his mark on the show. What a travesty.
Time Lords have always come across as just smart aliens who've deemed themselves more important and significant than they really are. And The Doctor has always been a Deus Ex Machina.
Yes she is. Yes they are.
Timelords are still timelords. They just got their genetic ability to regenerate from a time lord from an alternate universe, rather than from exposure to the time vortex. It's not a substantial change, everything is fine.
Time lords were never a species, they were a class within the species- as far as I always understood it.
"Why...Did...You...Do It?" EXACTLY! Totally spot on. (and there still isn't any explanation why Ruth's TARDIS was in the shape of a police box.)
just like our doctor, she visits earth and the tardis clones a police box. seems a natural thing for the tardis to do in that place.
@@kevinatkab5219 first, the chamelion circuit copies something thats in close proximity. Ruth's tardis was in present say and buried! Second, it is made very clear that the Doctors (and Susan's) first trip to earth was in the Unearthly Child.
And add to that the chameleon circuit would have to be broken on Ruth's tardis to be the police box at that time
The Brendan Doctor was a policeman - when he eventually got a tardis it chose a shape he'd resonate with. Ruth inherited the same tardis. Eventually it got returned to Gallifrey where it was mothballed ready for the Hartnell doctor to steal it all over again, by this time the chameleon circuit was well and truly stuck. Anyway, it was very plainly stuck before Hartnell arrived in Totters Lane - because you do not disguise yourself as a police box if you are trying to blend in to a junkyard environment.
I think we'll get more answers but I have no optimism left that they'll be good answers
To quote Chris Jericho: “A stupid idea from bad creative”
What
An AEW Chris Jericho reference! Love it.
Damn i wasnt expecting a wrestling reference
Le champion
Break the who down!!!!!! Break down the law of doctor who 😤
My interpretation: the Timeless Child revelation is there not to break the Doctor, but to break the Master. The Master would not have taken such risks had he not felt overshadowed yet again by the Doctor. The Master has always been jealous of the Doctor, always one step behind. It's alluded to here, and visible in earlier episodes. To realize that the Doctor is the literal reason he can exist is what breaks him, and he expects it to break the Doctor as well. He almost succeeds at the end, where the Doctor is willing to use the Death Particle. That would have been his victory.
Regardless of how one feels about it, it did get resolved this series, so it isn't hanging over the story going forward. There's room for exploration, yes, but the "mystery" aspect is "solved". And it may end up impacting the character as we go forward; we'll have to wait and see.
I think it's there largely to open up story options for the setting. The Doctor now has a massive history full of unknown enemies, friends and adventures. (Or rather, always had that history - but now we know about it). We also have the shadowy Division to worry about.
No one wants mysteries solved in whole. The smaller aspects of the show were made major in the relaunch. Who is he and what and how are they? I NEVER wanted that information addressed as there was the present to resolve and the past could take care of it self. Part of why you wouldn't want to do that is that it upsets all events proceeding them especially if they attempt to change those events. I wouldn't put it past them to do this some day. I can't be bothered to find out except through these indirect channels though.
@@pigtailsboy It definitely hasn't solved the mysteries in whole. It's filled in a couple of details about Gallifrey's history and, as a result, raised a bunch of interesting new questions to explore in the present.
It hasn't resulted in any canon breaches that I can see except the inconsequential "why would a Doctor prior to Hartnell have a TARDIS that looks like a police box?".
And actually it returns the Doctor to being more of a mystery again, like in the Hartnell days, without changing her character. IMO this is probably a good thing in the long run. It breathes new questions and possibilities into a show that was becoming a bit static.
In the end he got what he wanted. Cellular regeneration is impossible after exposure to the death particle. If he revives it won't be because of an ability he inherited from Doctor.
The mystery of who the doctor really is, is still there.
For anyone curious about the "timeless child" twist.
Look at who told the doctor this. The Master's manipulation of the matrix.
He attempted to break her.
It didn't work, that was the point.
No matter what information/challenge you throw at the doctor she will not break and she will always remain true to what she was/is.
So as fans. If we want, we can choose to believe it was a lie? I like it.
Dude used the Matrix
It honestly reminded me of Rey being told by Kylo Ren about her past
The first stage is denial
Tyler Houston I’m glad some people aren’t too angry about it
14:57 "That means the Time Lords don't even exist if it wasn't for the Doctor" - More directly, don't they owe their existence to Tecteun and her experiments? After all, heart transplant patients owe their lives to the ground-breaking work of Christaan Barnard, not the person whose heart he used.
ftumschk I wouldn’t say so, Christen Barnard could have used pretty much anyone whilst tecteun could only use the Doctor so it is probably 50/50 with both being vital.
Why not both?
But the doctor is still very much involved. It's not like she could have developed regeneration if it wasn't for the doctor/timeless child
@@noman196 But the Timeless Child was a little kid at the time. Tecteun was the adult taking the samples and doing experiments on the TC and her genetic material.
@@Jedi_Spartan The Doctor (as she would become much later) was only present as a donor. Tecteun was the one actively experimenting, and her experimental subject was a little child.
I didn’t mind the timeless child so much
But why couldn’t it have been the master? That would have been so much better, and would justify (or justify it more) his rage
My issue with the episode is that it ruined the cannon of the show and made matt Smith's Regenration pointless
@Caleb O'Gorman
He’d feel used.
@@stop9273 could easily be explained by :
The Time Lords were perpetuating the lie by pretending to give the Doctor another regeneration cycle.
Or that only Tecteun was privy to the Doctor's true role as genetic progenitor and the Time Lords believed they were granting him a new cycle -- if they hadn't, he would have still regenerated into Twelve (but he probably wouldn't have attacked his enemies with regeneration energy at the same moment he did)
In this scenario Clara's role would have been diminished, but not necessarily Eleven's.
I'm accepting what's been presented as canon for the moment, but I'm leaving open the fact that our only source for this information is The Master, the very definition of "Unreliable Narrator." I've seen people complain about "show, don't tell" but if The Doctor discovered this truth for herself (show) then it solidifies the canon, being told this by The Master leaves it open for later discrediting. This is either genius writing, or a lack of guts depending on your opinion of Chris Chibnall.
"Ah!" you say. "But what about The Fugitive Doctor appearing in The Matrix?" To which I ask you, did The Fugitive Doctor tell the 13th anything she didn't already know? "Perhaps you summoned me" could be construed that this is the Matrix embodying 13's subconscious, and this is just 13 talking to 13. The Fugitive Doctor could still fit into the Season 6b theory, with the Timelords gifting a regeneration for the 3rd Doctor and keeping the regeneration maths intact.
But, for the moment, I'm alright with the idea that The Doctor is The Timeless Child, not an important figure in Timelord society like Rassilon, Omega, or The Other, but the secret shame of the Timelords, hidden from everyone, even the child themselves. I quite like the idea that no matter how many times they might reboot and try to indoctrinate the Timeless Child, they will always find their way to being The Doctor in some way, by name or not. Their only destiny is to reject Timelord society and roam the universe, fighting injustice.
I'm even entering Ko Sharmus as a potential future Doctor, many many regenerations in the future, standing with the last humans. That they were willing to take 13th's place appeared like someone who had spent so long fighting the Cybermen, and now in their most dangerous form could make a sacrifice with meaning. Perhaps someone who had lived a universe worth of regenerations and was ready to go.
Perhaps I'm being an optimist, but the fact that The Timeless Child was mentioned in series 11 and has taken 2 years to come to light, means that there may be more of this story to tell.
*Whistles MST3K theme song*
Honestly, I would be intrigued if this really was done purely to shake things up a bit. Like, I agree that if the Doctor is the Timeless Child, it would be okay, but I have also seen segments that are a bit in the dark. Like, how did the Master even KNOW the Doctor is the Timeless Child? There's nothing shown that actually makes this revelation clear as crystal since there is literally this giant gap of missing information. While it would make sense and explain why the Master even wants the Doctor dead again, since last we saw them as Missy they were actually rekindling their relationship with the Doctor. But for another thing, it would actually make more sense if it was the Master given their life and history with the Doctor. In short, there is a lot revolving around this that has yet to be fully explored and is clearly paving the way for things to come in the future.
Our other source is Ruth...?
@@MrAEMiller does she actually confirm any of the timeless child stuff? I don't think she does (might rewatch it tonight to confirm)
This definitely isn't the end of the plot thread. Captain Jack said he'd meet the Doctor again, the fugitive-hunting Judoon are back, we still don't know who or why the Gallifreans were hunting Ruth, why the guy from Fugitive of the Judoon probably wasn't human, etc.
Oh, and the fact that Ruth straightup killed people. That's definitely going somewhere. Maybe she killed someone important, idk
When I was watching, I felt that the Dr. being the Timeless child was not the conclusion I saw. The Master being the timeless child, and the Doctor being Tecteun who was experimenting and working on the child - I think if you are doing /this/ would makes so much more sense - The masters endless rage towards the Doctor. The Doctor trying to help all the while running away. I think it would explain a lot of the deeper unconscious behaviors of both of them.
It's such a pity that you weren't brain swapped with Chibnall when he was writing the Flux. You would have done a better job of it. XD
People still write essays about the characters and themes in Hell Bent five years after it aired. All anyone will remember about The Timeless Children in 2025 (if anything) is how stupid and pointless the retcon was. The show is no longer about anything other than itself.
This is a minor point in the grand scheme but I'm slightly confused how the master "killed" all the Gallifreyans and yet they had regenerative powers as the time-lord-cybermen. Surely by killing them he would have to destroy them mid regen (like 11 and spaceman style)? idk
I don't there wouldve been a good answer
Good question. So many plotholes regarding the Master. He just did everything OFF-SCREEN and popped up as a crazed-clickbait expositional device from the writer. I liked all the ideas in theory, but they seemed to be crammed together. I wonder why we couldn't be shown how the Master did what he did. I guess they just wanted to hide the surprise.
I imagine freezing them would preserve their genetic material, keeping such biological functions possible once plugged into a cyberman without the need for organic components to still be alive, this would tie into them gaining the ability to convert the dead (just a theory, not entirely sure myself tbh)
@@mattnewbould6538 Good theory. I doubt we will find out and just have to accept it as fantasy logic and that the Master is so clever they are able to do anything the writer says.
@@FixFilmsLtd yeah probably 😂
I feel that the twist gives the middle finger to the “first doctor” and makes time of the doctor getting a new regeneration cycle pointless
Also why couldn’t have he been omega as you know he CREATED TIME LORDS
Um William Hartnell is still the First Doctor. The lives before him wouldn't have called themselves "The Doctor".
Perhaps, my hope for series 13 is that they explain how the doctor got a 12 regen limit after they wiped the pre-doctor, and then in time of the doctor they sort of just unlocked the doctors original regen ability.
Taylor Latinovich Ruth calls herself the Doctor.
The Timelords that sent the “new regeneration cycle” could have been playing along and just triggered the Doctor’s next regeneration because they’re, you know, a bunch of a-holes.
We still don't know that Ruth is pre-Hartnell though. I still think the Season 6b theory is more likely.
With 10: when the doctors ego gets to big a human knocks him down a peg
With 11: has to erase his history cause he knows he’s gotten to big
With 12: I am an idiot with the box
the moment you snapped for the spoiler warning, i got an ad. good timing lol.
Me too!
I was hoping the "Big Reveal" was going to be that both The Doctor and Master were Loomed from The Other/ Timeless Child
That's a way better twist.
I agree. Much better twist. It would make alot of sence why the master would be so angry.
@@k.stewart007 I totally agree I came up with a similar idea about the Doctor and the Master being created/used as tools of the Timelords. This could enrage the Master enough to bring down his wrath on the Timelords.
That could still be the case. The Division could be the 'mother' character and the Timeless child agreeing to become the Doctor and the Master, then being loomed, hence the Doctor having and remembering her childhood.
Ok loomer
I really think it damages the mythology of the show. Even the Doctor as a character. I think it makes him/her too special compared to the time lords in a non personality way. It's hard to explain. The doctor became a mythical figure because of what the doctor did. Not because he/she was born as the first person to regenerate.
Honestly this felt like a child wrote it. Really wanting to create a backstory for the doctor when it was completely unnecessary. What a shame Chris is show runner. I hope somehow this is retconned.
I agree. The Timeless Child would have worked better had they been The Master. Still keep the core of that story the same, but have Rassilon working on the child instead of a non-character. Have Rassilon add the regen energy to time vortex (which has now been voided) so Time Lords could be created. Being the Master it would give credibility to how they always survive, it would play into their madness through all the torture, mind wipes and forced regens to childhood and the mind wipes themselves could be explained as a way to try and wipe the 'evil' from the Master.
While this would have changed the Master's backstory a bit, it would have been acceptable and the Doctor would still have remained the Doctor we all know.
@@lwaves It definitely should've been the master. It being the Doctor is literally like absolutely terrible. Should've been anyone other than the doctor.
Esp given that the Doctor has mentioned "10 million years of Time Lord history"...which makes them THAT old, now, I guess? It's a bit like revealing that Indiana Jones isn't just some ordinary guy who does extraordinary things, but is really an ancient Atlantean who lost his memory, and unconsciously does archeaology to find his roots, or something...
@@HandofOmega That's exactly what it's like. It's also like saying Luke Skywalker was the original force wielder who gave the force to the world.
@Hand-of-Omega I agree and indeed it does make the Doctor at least that old but please don't do that. It just makes me wish harder that Indy had visited Atlantis (in the movies) and at a time when Ford was still up to it. Things that could have been.
Stop trying to make The Doctor more "special". Imagine how much more interested it would be if The Master was the Timeless Child instead and The Doctor really was just some kid he grew up with. It would keep 98% of the story intact and make for a more interesting character development.
If I could change the Timeless child story line: The master is the timeless child and Ruth’s doctor (who’s pre hartnell as chib wants that and can’t stop that really) was the tectiune time Lord person who found the master and experimented so they sipped both their minds after and gave the doctor a new regen cycle. I believe this would open up a lot of doors in the storyline. Now theirs a reason why the Masters not on the doctors side anymore (Missy), there’s a reason he wants revenge. It opens up great acting moments for Jodie. She can judge her morality she did this terrible thing in a life she didn’t know about. She can judge her name like is she a good person? I loved that arc for the 12th doctor but there wasn’t a reason why he didn’t know if he was good and it kinda got thrown away abit too quick but this time we can really explore the doctor trying to discover if she’s a good person. Also when Jodie meets back up with Ruth like she will they can have an amazing scene where this rage of Jodie comes out as she has a go at Ruth for what she did but she’s also having an argument with herself. Omg even throughout the series have moments where Jodie is unsure of herself and maybe even has a hard choice to make to save people and she struggles to make that choice because of her own morals being questioned as she doesn’t know what person she is. And then at the end of her run whenever it is. Have like Omega or some big time lord bad guy be behind the whipping of their minds. And the doctor will actually want to attack this dude and maybe threaten death to only realise that the doctor is something herself choose with Hartnell. I think that could be an amazing arc for a doctor that has struggled to really put her stamp on things. Make Jodie be the doctor who really clarifies why she is the doctor. I think my storyline opens up a lot better opportunities for acting for all actors and is just better tbh
the Cyberman were pretty stupid. they tried to end all life in the universe. THEY ARE NOT DALEKS WITH LEGS.
also this episode was a 45 minute powerpoint presentation made by The Master ending with 'you were adopted'
congrats Hell Bent you're not the worst
I absolutely loved it. We learned more and yet we know the doctor so much less now. What species was she originally? Where were her family? Was she an abandoned experiment? Was the small black girl the actual first incarnation? Are her actual species still out there? Does she have infinite regenerations? Etc.
The master, the companions, the cybermen, the doctor and the music were all brilliant. That scene where the doctor destroys the matrix with her mind made me grin so hard. The flashbacks with the music was beautiful! I was so worried and I can see why this may annoy people but this was done so cleverly and it was clearly very thought out. I just loved it, one of the best finales, one of the best stories...
...and I’ve been watching since I was 4 years old, I’m 18 now. I saw rose when it first aired, and I personally feel this era is EXCELLENT. 10/10 very ambitious and truly felt like doctor who.
Also, it’s covered so many plot holes which is something chibnall didn’t HAVE TO do.
@@jamiestevens3074 And also created more plot holes
@@bigwhoop6018 and kill the doctor at the same time.
And now Doctor Who is no longer Doctor Who since we know she was a little girl before Hartnell and I'm sorry but the BBC had to work really hard to get him to play the role and he played it excellently. This episode really just destroyed all he stood for. Several episodes no longer make any sense at all (Time of the Doctor, Twice Upon a Time and the whole River Song arc spring to mind). Also what is the point of a Time Lord since it turns out they are really no better than the Master which I suppose makes sense as they stole the key to regeneration off a small girl mercilessly by killing her/him over and over again. This episode completely and utterly ruined Doctor Who's past and what is the point of the Doctor now anyways. They were found, killed multiple times, ran away from a planet made of Doctor clones and now randomly wizz round space doing cool things but what is insinuated by this episode is the Doctor will live forever. That completely ruins the fragility of the Doctor and how he has to be careful when losing bodies because now he can kill himself again and again and again and he'll just regenerate. Pointless!
You have got to be trolling lol.jodie's acting was bad as usual. She still can't play the doctor. Jodie didn't even do nothing but argue(weak performance and awkward mean face) and then get captured. Her acting inside the matrix was laughable! The companions were irrelevant, what did they actually do? The last of the humans plot went nowhere. Also I thought humans turned into those bad CGI monsters a few episodes ago. The guy guarding the gate saved the day lol. You must not know doctor who lore if you think this was so amazing. This crap retconned everything SMH. Do you know who Rassilon, Omega, and the other are? Well chibs could care less lol. This crap was sooo lame. Chibs made some random FEMALE scientists accidentally finding the doctor the 1st time lord. Basically saying the fathers of time lord society was all a lie. He didn't even bother to explain how they mastered time lol. Because it would retcon his retcon smh. Also how is everyone just entering the tardis all of a sudden? LOL even the judoon got in! CHIBS HAS TO GO!!! This didn't even feel like a finale, it was a regular episode. So stupid, chibs writing sucks. It's bad fan fiction. You seriously disrespected RTD and Moffet with this post. Chibs has no 10/10 episodes. If this was 10/10 then everything before must have been 20/20.
The first doctor is still the first doctor, he was the one that ran away with the tardis. All the rest I took were all on gallifry ie the timeless children ect. I think doctor Ruth is still post (fitting in between 2 and 3).
The 1st Doctor is NOT the 1st Doctor anymore. That could have worked if they hadn't called Ruth 'The Doctor; but they did. There's no room to fit her inbetween the 2nd and 3rd and if even if she was, our current Doctor would have remembered her. The only place she now fits is pre-1st Doctor and pre-mind wipe. Which is also bollocks because she shouldn't have had a police box TARDIS. Any changes, workarounds etc made now to fit her anywhere but pre-1st Doctor would just be scraping to undone what they've effed up.
lwaves he was the doctor that left with the tardis. That is why he is the “first”.
Doctor Ruth still could be in between 2 and 3 as 2 got forced to regenerate, the part shows him and a few faces darting in and out in the background. That’s why people say she could of been in there working for the time lords. We still don’t know why the doctor doesn’t remember her. That could be a story for another day
@intouchdm As stated though, there's no regen room left to fit her in, even if she is a forced regen. The gaps have been filled. Also, while I can't say the final image rejected by the 2nd Doctor looks exactly like the 3rd, there is a strong enough resemblance to state that's who the 2nd became.
So all evidence points to her being pre-Hartnell, which means he isn't the first. Speculation about what could be written is irrelevant as you could write anything to explain something. The evidence is what matters and the evidence leads to pre-Hartnell. :-)
I Think It's That Her Life Was Reversed,So Hartnell Was The First,But For That Life
@@lwaves They didn't close the gap for a 6B Doctor, and I think the stuff about non-intervention may have been a nod to that theory. Also it's implied the deleted stuff is all pre-Hartnell, but it's not actually confirmed. "Ruth" goes out of her way to dodge the question of where she fits into the timeline. Basically I'm not seeing any more evidence of where "Ruth" is in the timeline than we had before. All they did was confirm pre-Hartnell regenerations are possible.
This episode makes me want a season focused on the master.
Maybe a 4 episode limited series. The actor is absolutely fantastic
I'd buy that for a dollar!
I've always wanted an 8th Doctor miniseries, perhaps something that could run alongside the main show like the RTD spin-offs culminating in a multi-Doctor story.
Bro, I want a War Games length story with this Master. He’s fantastic!
Honestly he's the only part of the episode I liked.
Big Finish will keep this Master alive for YEARS to come
You killed me with, "What was the F@#$%^& point!" Lol
It creates some interesting questions:
Where is the doctor from?
Is there any more of the Doctors original race?
Why was the Doctor left alone? What is the division?
Why was the Doctor arrested?
We still don't knows:
When is Ruth from?
Why does she have a police box TARDIS?
What is Jacks role in all this?
I think for me I need a complete story to judge this story looks to be a long term thing
Most of the good questions could have been done WITHOUT the Doctor being the Timeless Child
For the TARDIS, my theory is that the Timeless Child's TARDIS was a police box and when Clara helped Hartnell to choose a TARDIS, he chose his old TARDIS.
And when the TARDIS was able to retransform into a police box, it choose to stay that way because that was how it was before.
The point? Getting rid of the time lord academic posh elitism and reintroduce some mystery. Result? “Splat!”
That line about Yas not having much to say about Graham because she's from Yorkshire didn't ring true to me. I lived in Sheffield for seven years and those guys never shut up about how lovely and friendly they are
You lost me at “better than Hell Bent”. Unbelievable.
Really I feel it's impossible NOT to be better than Hell Bent
I dont see what he's on about with hell bent. It was good. This episode was so, so bad
PolishGMR it is. This episode for killing the show and effectively destroying the entire history of the show and retconning the origins.
And a weak main cast of actors.
Hell bent is just bad a bad episode not far behind just this episode ruins every other episode therefore is going to always be the worst
At least hell Bent didn't piss me off this much. Then again I actually liked the Doctor at the time so I was willing to give it more leeway. Also it wasn't pulling a useless retcon
Hell Bent was just a bad episode.
The Timeless Child destroyed a good chunk of the DW canon.
All of these are amazing and accurate points, the thing that makes me most upset about the timless child is all of the hand waving away of the importance of 12 regenerations AND River Song/Melody Pond GAVE AWAY SOME OF HER REGENERATION ENERGY!! So that was pointless and wasteful now? Because the doctor has infinite regenerative energy???
"I'm Rey"
"Rey who?"
"Rey Timeless Child"
I'd say the fans owe Phillip Hinchcliffe a big apology.
And Moffat
As Hinchcliffe is now one of the pre-Hartnell Doctors, I guess his shoulders are broad enough :)
The best thing this episode did was make the entire reveal of the Timeless Child be done by The Master, which basically means that any future writer after Chibnall should have enough resources to make this entire reveal a lie and part of the Master’s manipulation, I think the vast majority of the Doctor Who fan base want this to be retconned as soon as possible, and thankfully there’s enough material there to do that, we all just gotta hope Chibnall doesn’t take this reveal and run with it so far it makes it impossible for future writers to change.
“At least it’s better than Hell Bent” summarised my feelings exactly
But it’s not. Hell Bent has Jenna Coleman and Capaldi. It’s automatically better.
It really isn’t. I’ve never been one to scream “discontinuity”, but my voice is hoarse after yesterday.
Nah, Hellbent was better!
Yes, its better than hell bent at destroying the doctor who history
@@darkroi98 😂😂
Whatever you say.
i think whats important is the Doctor does not want to be more than an idiot with a box, but sometimes by their actions becomes more important. I really like i think a 5th Dr episode, where he says please don't mention it as he leaves, and Turlough leans in with a " really , he means it, don't mention it"
Hellbent didn't destroy the entire cannon of the franchise.
And neither did The Timeless Children. The Doctor is still a Time Lord (title, not species, remember?). The life we saw on screen is still the only life they remember. Would knowing that past lives were indeed a thing and knowing what your past life looked like alter your present now? No. It would have the potential to change your outlook on life, yes, but apart from that? You'd still be the same person, living the same life you are living now. And it's the same with the Timeless Children. The reveal doesn't change anything we saw. All it does is change our view on some things, and give us a new mystery to explore. :)
@@ayamira8589 yeah it does really tgink about it , imma sum it up like this, does his granddaughter , son/daught's , has infinite regenerations, and by the way does it even matter what his name is anymore , because the concept of "timelords" doesn't exist so whats the point in calling it doctor who anymore we now know "who" he/she is and thats not even getting into the MASSIVE continuity errors
@@ayamira8589 Andrew is correct this opens up more plotholes than it closes. It would honestly take too long to list them. It wasn't needed and removes the enigma of the doctor. They aren't an idiot madman in a box. They're the frickin founder of his race! The doctor was great because they were ordinary and made extraordinary through their actions. It inspired fans and showed that you didn't have to be born special to be special. The timeless child cheapens the character and spits in the face of long time fans and the show's legacy. At this point I'm refusing to call anything post Capaldi canon. This isn't doctor who. Its impostor who!
@@ayamira8589 I agree exactly ✊
To be fair, neither did Timeless Children, really. It actually explains a lot.
I must admit I've been looking forward to this review for this exact reason 🤣
I was so excited for the darn episode, and was left asking, what did we gain?
Did the rewriting of the whole history change anything? No
Was only having a child experimented on and meddling with some histories that great of a fu**in sin for a whole planet? No
Was having some of the doctor's DNA in the Master, that big of a deal to make him convert this way from Missy, torch his planet, and want to destroy the whole universe? No
Who tf is Ko Sharmus? No answer
How did we blow the Cybership? We just did
Can we stop calling the companions fam? Absolutely not
Can we get any more info about the gateway Tecteun found the doctor on? Not this episode, and probably Chibnall would forget about it
Can we make the ending a cliche cliffhanger like 3 people asked? Absolutely, why not?
You forgot: Did we ever learn WHY there is a gateway to Gallifrey on that planet? Nnnnope.
On the whole, while I liked this finale more than I disliked it, it feels like a bit of a mixed bag for me. On the one hand, I was deeply intrigued with everything surrounding Gallifrey and the Timeless Child. I actually didn't mind the whole Timeless Child/Doctor origin story since nothing happened here that took away from what we already knew. It just simply added more, and for the first time in over 50 years, we don’t know who the Doctor is or where they’re from. I personally think it was Chibnall's intent on bringing back the "Who" into "Doctor Who" while not completely contradicting everything that came before. Also, I really like the Master's role in the story and Dhawan once again excels in the role opposite Whittaker.
However, while I didn't mind the Timeless Child revelation, I agree it doesn't really go anywhere (unless they are saving it for Series 13), the companions barely had anything to do and, just like in the Series 8 finale, the Cybermen once again play second fiddle to the Master after being built up as the principal threat of the series. Ashad was so easily taken out, it was almost laughable, and while the concept of the Cyber-Lords is fascinating one, they don't really do anything with them. It felt like it was a tug-of-war battle between a Cybermen story on the one hand, and a Master/Gallifrey story on the other. Also, it did feel like there was hardly any action and a lot of standing around/delivering endless exposition scenes, as well as plenty of unanswered questions (How did the Master destroy Gallifrey? What was up with the Boundry? How did the Judoon break through the TARDIS?)
In a way, these last three episodes reminded me an awful lot of the Series 3 finale: they had phenomenal prologue episodes ('Utopia' & 'The Haunting of Villa Diodati'), great part one's that brilliantly set up how high the stakes are ('The Sound of Drums' & 'Ascension of the Cybermen') and final parts that both feel ambitious and yet falls somewhat short of those ambitions while also feeling incredibly slapdash despite the extended length ('Last of the Time Lords' & 'The Timeless Children'). Taken as a whole, the Series 12 finale was messy and its ambitions often outreach its limitations, but I hugely admire Chibnall for at least being bold and ambitious, which was what I asked for before the series started, and I strongly appreciate what it's trying to do rather than what it fails to do. It's better than both 'Hell Bent' and 'The Wedding of River Song' and infinitely superior to the awful 'Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos'.
I agree wholeheartedly. I think that the fact people are honestly going out of their way to say "DOCTOR WHO IS DEAD FOREVER! NOTHING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED MATTERS ANYMORE!" are just being overly dramatic, obnoxiously petty, and are clearly not stopping to actually think about anything. Nothing from the past 55+ year history of the show has been irrevocably altered forevermore, and it actually establishes more than it takes away. The mystery of the Doctor that the show started with has been reestablished. And at the end of the day, nobody Pre-Hartnell are even technically "The Doctor."
This goes back to the end of the Matt Smith era, where he talked extensively about the name "Doctor" is like a promise, and anyone who never used that name are not even "The Doctor." Anyone who honestly thinks that the Timeless Child imposes more on The Doctor's character than the Doctor themselves are just totally going with The Master's way of thinking. The whole plan the Master had was for the Timeless Child revelation to shatter the Doctor and leave them totally broken and unable to fight. But at the end of the day, the Doctor knew who they were all along and actually cherished there being so much more about them than they had initially thought before. If anything, those who think the Timeless Child overwrites anything the show has ever done are being no better than the Master.
I also agree with the whole deal going on with the plot. I agree that the companions didn't do a whole lot, and I'm also not happy about the Cybermen still being second-fiddle to the Master, I have really grown tired of that, but I do agree that it leaves more for the future. I mean, we didn't see the Master die and he even said something like "follow me!" when the Death Particle went off, so they're clearly leaving that for the future. As a whole, this episode was mostly just leaving certain questions to be explored later.
Personally, I think that the Jo Martin Doctor is the next piece they'll have to explain. I'm personally sticking with the Season 6B theory camp as it explains things about her like the TARDIS's exterior, her fighting style, willingness to use weapons, and even the fact she goes by "Doctor" far more than if she was Pre-Hartnell. And there's also the factor of the Doctor having limited Regenerations from Hartnell-Smith, that has to be explored. Because I personally think them having a Regeneration limit would fit in with something Rassilon or the like would do, and would certainly fit with the visions the Master gave the Doctor of something being taken much more than just memories being lost.
Overall, I think this episode was a good balance of things being answered yet much more being left up in the air and worthy of being explored later. Anyone who honestly thinks the show is dead, once again, are just being far too petty and overly dramatic and clearly unwilling to accept change in the status quo. (Seriously people, this has been hinted at since the 7th Doctor - GET OVER IT!!)
Wiping out almost 60 years of Whovian history and mythos.
No, thanks.
Mission accomplished.
It doesn't, but maybe you should see someone about your delusions
summoner2100 SJWs-the only group that can make the Borg look compassionate (resistance is futile) :-)
@@summoner2100 How does it not?
JimBowen we think things, then things change and get revealed and we think new things. The doctor was an old human with one heart from the future (watch Hartnell episodes) then he wasn’t. Then we got the time lords. And so on. Nothing in this actually breaks what came before. The doctor can’t remember the previous existences so we still only know of the 13 incarnations. Also she thought she was Gallifreyan and so assumed she only had 12 regens. Who’s to say that when Gallifrey gave more regens to Matt Smith they weren’t just faking it and he didn’t need them and once he thought he could regen he could but he could all the time. Also Ruth can still be 6B doctor. Nothing that’s been anti still occur.
I had very much the same reaction, but there were a couple things you didn't bring up that I'm wondering about.
The biggest of these is why the HELL did the Master destroy Gallifrey in the first place? The only impact the TC reveal has is that it turns out the Gallifrey creation story is a lie. And like... Okay? That's not really a genocide-worthy reveal. The only one it hurts is the doctor (and that's just temporary emotional turmoil) and since the Master as tried to kill them countless times I really don't see him being pissed that they hurt the Doctor.
They're still implying Ruth was Pre-Hartnell. I know you said you doycare about lore, but this one gets me. Because it's Canon that the chameleon circuit breaker with the first doctor. So if Ruth came before him, why is she travelling in a police box? Come to think of it, why is her TARDIS interior clearly more advanced than the first three Doctor's at least?
There's not enough casualties. When the Cyberman were just Cybermen, they wiped out all but 2-3 humans (not counting team TARDIS because they aren't from that time). So upon being upgraded by the master to regenerate, we should have seen some example of their power beyond one regeneration. Instead we get one last, willing casualty. On top of that, from their reveal as part Cyberman and part timelord (guess the doctor and Clara weren't the Hybrid after all) it only takes about ten minutes to defeat them. Ten minutes where they do nothing.
How did Jack know to give his warning in the first place? I don't think the lone Cyberman was going around boasting about the doctor giving him the cyberium. Even if he was, they were pretty focused on executing humans and we're extremely successful at it. The only people who would have known would be the ones team TARDIS come across, and if they'd met Jack surely he would have saved them? This one is pretty nitpicky, but still.
Why couldn't the Master be the timeless child? There would be no break in continuity, it would explain a lot (including why he destroyed Gallifrey)... I've heard a couple people say they made it the doctor so they could give her infinite regenerations, but destroying the time lord council who regulates them does that anyway.
I FULLY blame toxic fans for this bullshit. They bitched and moaned about there not having been a overarching plot in S11, so Chibnal went "have ALL the storyline"
I thought the episode was great, even the timeless child story was good except for the sole aspect of the timeless child being the doctor.
If it hadn't been the Doctor or added previous incarnations before Hartnell, then yeah, I probably would have enjoyed it a lot more too
Ross Carlin did it explicitly add incarnations of “the Doctor” prior to hartnell? Previous regenerations, sure, but when did the doctor actually become the doctor?
@@mezzodave You've got a point, but it's still the same person. Kind of like the war doctor, sure he didn't go by the name of the doctor, but it was still him.
@@mezzodave Ruth went by the Doctor. And while I'm aware of the 6B theory, and now because of this it could fit in there. So you have a good point there I now realise. But I don't really like that it's added more incarnations before Hartnell is my point.
I agree
60th Anniversary Ep.... we find out the Master was wrong about The Timeless Child being the Doctor. Soo is the traveler Rassilon?
i hope so
The traveler meaning the scientist/mom? I think it has to be Rassilon.
Could be The Other...
I wondered that.
Oh on don’t do a Rise of Skywalker on us, that would be even worse!
I have to say the Timeless Child stuff really works for me. I feel it adds mystery to the character again, possibly for the first time since Hartnell. The idea of there being so many lost incarnations, so many lost Doctors. Adding on top of that the Doctor being older than the Time Lords themselves, belonging to a people we know absolutely nothing about.
I'm sure some of this will be explored in the future, but I'm also sure that all of it never will. The Doctor's past is now just as unfathomable as their future.
That's why they did it. That's the point. It puts the Who back in Doctor Who.
Exactly so why did we spend 57 years learning about the Doctor? We should have just started here and have done with it. It has just stuck two fingers up to every past incarnation of the Doctor....who isn't even a Time Lord.
Christian Morley what that doesn’t make any sense the whole thing is that the doctor has always been out of place from the time lords and now we know why even though we still don’t know who the doctor is.
@@eh708 When did we know he didn't fit in? The Master didn't fit in either and he wasn't anything out of the ordinary. Also they aren't really time lords; they are cowards who saw something someone else had an stole it without asking and then proclaimed themselves awesome. That doesn't come across as a race that would have the courage and power to be the most impressive, knowledgeable race in the universe.
The timeless child story in this was giving me Lost flashbacks: where 90% of the 'facts' are delivered by liars and/or crazy people (both of which the master is), there is no way to confirm it (so much of the archive having been erased), and it is all immediately brushed to the side while we focus on other, more immediate, concerns (the cyber time lords, the judoon arrest).
So I am guessing this will age as well as Lost has.
I always appreciate your takes, particularly when I disagree, and it was good to hear a thought-out critique of this twist that wasn't just trolling. In terms of your specific points, I think I feel differently for a few reasons.
I also don't like the Doctor being too deified, but I don't actually think this does that-not the way the Carmel masterplan did it, anyway. In some ways, the fact the Doctor started out as a refugee really chimes with my sense of the character just being someone with a box. Yes, they were part of how the Time Lords began, but not in the same way the Other was supposed to be. In this version, the Doctor was just a child who washed up somewhere and had things done to them by the people we know as the Time Lords, and maybe that goes some way to contextualising the Doctor's sense of justice.
In particular: the Doctor *is* still someone who left Gallifrey because they rejected the Time Lords' values. Ruth is explicitly that (she stops working for the Division and runs away), and to me, the implication is that after the character's memory gets wiped, the Hartnell Doctor runs away again because some part of the knowledge of that is still bubbling away in his subconscious. Arguably, that kind of fits with the existing vagueness about why the Doctor left-and to me it's definitely much more satisfying than "something about a prophecy about a hybrid".
What did we lose, and gain? Well, I don't think Jodie's Doctor *will* be exactly the same person after this. Ruth doesn't say it won't change her at all: she says she isn't limited by who she used to be. But even if the character more or less stays the same-the main thing this changes is that it opens up a whole new area of canon. We're now no longer restricted to there being 12/13 Doctors at a time, and there being a linear sequence: in the future, the show can just jump around between any incarnation of the Doctor it can imagine, without having to bother explaining their origin/position. It makes the Morbius Doctors canon, but more importantly, it potentially canonises the Shalka Doctor, the Dalek film Doctor, and all the other "What do we do about them?" incarnations. There are whole possibilities this opens up that I'm excited by.
And yes-one of them could be a bad Doctor-Who-does-Enterprise story. But I'm at least more interested in that in this context than in (for example) a Doctor-Who-does-Smallville story about the Doctor and the Master at the Academy, or any of the stuff about the Doctor's childhood that Moffat did, so on balance, I'm still okay with it.
If there's anything positive about the reveal, to me it didn't seem definitely show it was the doctor & room to write themselves out of it.
I was thinking the same thing.
That's what worries me. I don't like the Timeless Child being the Doctor, but if they turn around next series and just say, "The Doctor's no longer the Timeless Child," then I'll be annoyed. It would just so a lack of commitment to their ideas. And I agree with you, the reveal didn't feel like anything special. It happens in the middle of the episode and just kinda comes and goes. It's so lack lustre.
This. The Matrix showed that there was a Timeless Child, but it was just the Master who said that The Doctor was The Timeless Child (he could have been lying about that)
@@boghag exactly or just been wrong about it when he thought he figured it out. They're missing pieces of information as well.
@@rosco31100 well I assume it was done on purpose weather for future writers or that there's more twist to the story. As someone commented, it's The Master saying she's the Timeless Child. Viewer never seen real proof of that & there's that blank space that's been removed. I don't think The Doctor starts remembering anything from her past. The Brendan stuff was put there by the Master. I'm not upset & suggest wait & see what happens.
is it wrong that i found myself rooting for the master at some points in this
No. Because it was an awesome performance.
@@xenon8117 that sounds like Supremacy of the Cybermen
I'm am hoping he's not really dead, because I want this one back again. I want a story where this Master suddenly takes a fancy to become a television director, and uses his endless knowledge about the Doctor to shape a TV show in the 1960s.
@@easterslice That kind of goes along with the way I've always wanted an episode set in a Doctor Who convention with the Doctor properly horrified at Dalek mugs.
16:38 I totally agree this is what annoyed me most about the episode along with the fact that they had these Cyber Timelords, then did nothing with them before they were blown up
While I agree with you, the Timelord Cybermen were such a massive threat that you pretty much *had* to stop them before they started or you'd be screwed. Though I would've enjoyed seeing them go head-to-head with the Daleks...
@@irrevenant3 Interesting restart to the Time War.
@@TheSmart-CasualGamer Except it wouldn't be a time war with one side already dead. It would just be a massacre.
YES! THANK YOU! THIS DID NOTHING FOR THE DOCTOR AND THE OVERALL PLOT.
Yet. It's mostly seeding potential for future stories.
It would of been cooler if the doctor wasn't the child but instead the person doing the experiments. It turns out that the doctor was THE doctor
Agreed. It also would have been an interesting arc for 13 if she had to deal with the knowledge that she tortured a child and stole their power and how that affects her vision of herself (similarly to how to the War Doctor stopped calling himself the Doctor because he felt he didn’t deserve the title) and how she goes forewords.
Thats stupid
@@imitationcrabmeat6999 Hi! I would like to know your thoughts on why you dislike this idea, I’m open to chat in the replies. I don’t appreciate being insulted without good reason though, so do keep that in mind.
@@usernamenotfound4002 well 1, i wasnt talking to you. So i didnt "insult you". 2, it just sounds like a stupid "what if" fanfiction. The whole thing should be scrapped.
@@imitationcrabmeat6999 The idea that the Doctor isn't just some random person from Gallifrey that some a Tardis but is in fact an unknown alien with infinite regeneration making every single sacrifice become worthless because the Doctor is kinda immortal, is stupid.
My idea of the Doctor being the doctor that experimented and killed the timeless child over and over again is shocking and unexpected because we always see the Doctor as the big hero and a good person while the rest of the galaxy fears him
P.s. you're allowed to think it's stupid, I do as well, but i think my idea is slightly better than the shows
Also, this idea that "whenever the show puts the Doctor on a pedistal and shows him as important to the universe it's a bad thing and it shouldn't happen" is I believe a misjudgement in your part.
I understand you like the Doctor being the "mad man in a box", the "idiot passing through and helping out". I do to. I love that. Some of my favourite episodes of the show are EXACTLY those where that narrative happens. Things like Vincent and the Doctor, Mummy on the Orient Express, Oxygen, Flatline or Blink are perfect examples of that.
But it is also true that some of the best episode of the series also came THANKS to the idea of the Doctor being a "legendary" figure that shows how powerful and "otherworldly" he can be. A Good Man Goes To War, Waters of Mars, Human Nature/The Family of Blood (for its finale and "the fury of a Timelord"), Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead ("I'm the Doctor, look me up"), Face the Raven or Turn Left to mention a few.
The fact that the Doctor is entertaining to watch when he just helps out a little and than flies away in his Tardis works the best exactly BECAUSE we also know he's capable of much grander, scarier and bigger things. BECAUSE we know he can at times make armies flee at the mention of his name or become "The Oncoming Storm". It's two faces of the same medal and with just one of them, the show wouldn't really be nearly as interesting.
I take your point, but the counter is that, in all those examples, the Doctor's rep is still because of things that HE has done, and not from some accident of birth/origin/nature. Now, changing the latter doesn't change the former, but it does beg the question, WHY do it, then? The only justifiable reason is if we get a story of the Doc discovering her REAL people, which is effectively replacing the Time Lords with some other aliens, hopefully at least as interesting. Of course, the last time the Doctor got a mandate, it was 12 learning he had to search for and find the hidden Gallifrey...which absolutely NOTHING was done with! Gallifrey eventually got tired of waiting, and had to seek HIM out, lol!
@@HandofOmega I'd like to point out that this change doesn't change who the doctor is. He's still a madman in a box, and still legendary figure because of all his adventures being a madman in a box. This just gives the doctor more questions about herself.
@@LordMooshroom But that's the problem. By not changing The Doctor, this makes this revelation and lore twist, pointless. Yes, the legendary figure exists, but The Doctor has tended to treat it as a tool than something they personally enjoy being.
@@LordMooshroom That is a problem though, isn't it? Chibnall basically took the basic idea of the Cartmel Masterplan, making the Doctor more mysterious by tying him/they to a mysterious figure in the Time Lord history, and dumbed it down, and twisted it, and turned it, until we got something that is just empty. That might be the best word to describe it. Empty. If this doesn't change anything about the Doctor herself then why do it in the first place? Just to create more mystery? Cartmel did use it to change the Doctor, McCoy became more manipulative the more he became aware of his own past - starting with the series and continuing in the novels. If they don't change Whittaker this was a cheap trick. And if they change her to the point that she is insecure it takes away what makes the Doctor the Doctor and that is the ability to walk into a room and own it. Then again, they already played with this idea here and resolved it, didn't they? Brining me back around to asking: Why did Chibnall do this if it doesn't have any lasting impact at least on this Doctor? Because I can guarantee you, the next showrunner, if there is one, or authors of future books will retcon this episode and the destruction of Gallifrey anyway.
@@GermanLeftist In what way is this dumbed down? The doctor may change because of this information, but that doesn't change who she is. Everybody changes, but you stay the same person.
And I figured out that the "Timeless Child" was the Doctor from the time they were first mentioned by the Remnants.
Sure, that was fairly likely. But did you figure out what it *meant?*
I love the episode it added more mystery to the series. I hope we see more previous Doctors and maybe getting a few episodes following the Ruth Doctor.
The whole idea that the First Doctor... wasn't... simply won't compute. It just bounces off my brain.
PS: I hope they retcon this whole thing as a lie, a fever dream a time aberration, whatever, just make it go away.
Also, I feel that this is the kind of thing that RTD will look at and go "Nah." and cluck it in the bin somehow.
But isn't this the same origin story as Doomsday the killer of Superman? A child is repeatedly murdered by a scientist and keeps coming back to life.